Pharyngula

A heartless faith

There was an appalling and tragic plane crash in Montana: 14 people were killed, 7 of them children.

Tom Hagler, a mechanic at the Oroville airport, told The Sacramento Bee that he allowed several children ages 6 to 10 to use the airport bathroom before they boarded the doomed plane.

“There were a lot of kids in the group,” he said, “a lot of really cute kids.”

Nine of them were members of one family. This was a horrifying and genuinely horrible accident; I can’t begin to imagine the grief felt by the survivors, who lost children and grandchildren.

I can feel great anger, though. Here is something that will make you furious and outraged, too. Irving Feldkamp is the father of two and grandfather of five who were killed in that accident; he lost a shocking great swath of his family in that one sad afternoon. Irving Feldkamp is also the owner of Family Planning Associates — a chain of clinics that also does abortions.

You can guess what segment of the Christian community I’m about to highlight.

Choke back your gag reflex and read this hideous, evil article on Christian Newswire. Some moral cretin named Gingi Edmonds wrote a wretched story on this tragedy that makes it sound like divine retribution on Mr Feldkamp.

It begins by telling us that the plane crashed in a cemetery — a Catholic cemetery that has a “memorial to the unborn”, dedicated to aborted fetuses. We are apparently supposed to feel some sense of irony at this.

All I can feel is horror at the kinds of monsters who would find grim satisfaction in the death of 6 to 10 year old children, as if it were payback for abortion. At amoral pious hypocrites who would regard this as an opportunity to assault human beings broken-hearted by pain and loss, to proselytize for the bloody-handed god of their death cult, to compound agony with accusations of guilt. There is no humanity left in these sanctimonious creatures, it’s been bled out and replaced with fanaticism and dogma.

This is loathsome.

In my time working for Survivors of the Abortion Holocaust, I helped organize and conduct a weekly campaign where youth activists stood outside of Feldkamp’s mini-mansion in Redlands holding fetal development signs and raising community awareness regarding Feldkamp’s dealings in child murder for profit. Every Thursday afternoon we called upon Bud and his wife Pam to repent, seek God’s blessing and separate themselves from the practice of child killing.

We warned him, for his children’s sake, to wash his hands of the innocent blood he assisted in spilling because, as Scripture warns, if “you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you”. (Ezekiel 35:6)

A news source states that Bud Feldkamp visited the site of the crash with his wife and their two surviving children on Monday. As they stood near the twisted and charred debris talking with investigators, light snow fell on the tarps that covered the remains of their children.

I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment, but I think of the time spent outside of Feldkamp’s – Pam Feldkamp laughing at the fetal development signs, Bud Feldkamp trying not to make eye contact as he got into his car with a small child in tow – and I think of the haunting words, ‘Think of your children.’ I wonder if those words were haunting Feldkamp as well as he stood in the snow among the remains of loved ones, just feet from the ‘Tomb of the Unborn’?

I only hope and pray that in the face of this tragedy, Feldkamp recognizes his need for repentance and reformation. I pray that God will use this unfortunate catastrophe to soften the hearts of Bud and Pam and that they will draw close to the Lord and wash their hands of the blood of thousands of innocent children, each as precious and irreplaceable as their own.

Has Gingi Edmonds considered the possibility that that “small child in tow” that she ignored to shout slogans and wave signs at Feldkamp might now be one of the shattered dead lying in that field? Is she aware that the Feldkamp family is probably haunted more by the good memories, the loss of ones they loved, than the hate shouted at them by religious fanatics? I doubt it. It’s a piece that reveals so much about the author: her own unconcern for human life, and her smug obliviousness of the fact that she is taking advantage of a tragedy to say her petty “I told you so”.

Once again, I am confirmed in my opinion that Christianity is a breeder of evil, a cesspit in which the most hateful and inhuman commitment to lies and delusions can ferment. Don’t ever preach at me about Christian morality: I’ve seen it, and it is empty of love for humanity, replaced with sanctimonious idolatry and commitment to dead, dumb superstition.

Comments

  1. #1 Teleprompter
    March 25, 2009

    Has she no sense of decency?

  2. #2 Jadehawk
    March 25, 2009

    bloody, heartless ghouls. so much for religion and morality

  3. #3 PZ Myers
    March 25, 2009

    Of course not. Her sense of decency has been removed and replaced with piety.

  4. #4 bgbaysjr
    March 25, 2009

    “Has she no sense of decency?” @ #1

    No, none whatsoever.

    All condolences to the survivors. Words chip and shatter under the weight of it…

  5. #5 MaleficVTwin
    March 25, 2009

    @Teleprompter:

    No, no she doesn’t.

  6. #6 AlisonS
    March 25, 2009

    I’m speechless at the inhumanity of this evil creep.

  7. #7 Kobra
    March 25, 2009

    This story raped my inner humanist, which is like my inner child, only more rational.

  8. #8 Resa
    March 25, 2009

    Disgusting.

  9. #9 sioux laris
    March 25, 2009

    Xians – anything good that arises from their existence is purely an accident. Their good deeds are done with bad intentions, and any happiness or creativity will be turned to mean, pinched, bitterness and evil if they have enough time and influence to have anything to say about it.

    And most basically decent people who are, or say they are, Christians pretend, like cops on the take, not to see this fact. They will pooh-pooh it if you point it out, and get angry with you if the pooh isn’t piled high enough to allow them to ignore it.

    Not that Muslims, or any other such fantasy cult, is any better, or much different.

  10. #10 alextangent
    March 25, 2009

    My sympathies to the Feldkamp family. Their loss is immeasurable.

    Much like my disgust at the despicable Gingi Edmonds.

    I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment, but …

    But nothing. Gingi has to tell you.

    Where’s the common humanity, decency and understanding of the grief of those that have lost their loved ones? What drives Edmonds to think such a thing, far less feel the need to parade the vengeful nature of her sadistic cult in public? I’m sickened.

  11. #11 Weaponsofmassdeception
    March 25, 2009

    Heartless, evil, and lacking a copy editor:

    The cause of the crash is a mystery. The pilot, who was a former military flier who logged over 2,000 miles, gave no indication to air traffic controllers that the aircraft was experiencing difficulty when he asked to divert to an airport in Butte.

    (emphasis mine)

    I’m assuming the unit is flights, not miles. but if all you really count in your life is how many doctors you harass, I guess those other pesky facts don’t matter.

    Oh yeah, and did I mention heartless? Yeah, then how ’bout heartless, evil bitch?

  12. #12 dsmccoy
    March 25, 2009

    Getting mighty close to Westboro Baptist territory here.

    “I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment, but …”

    but they do.

  13. #13 Paper Hand
    March 25, 2009

    Sadly, this doesn’t surprise me. Saddens me, yes. Surprises, no.

  14. #14 Paper Hand
    March 25, 2009

    I’m assuming the unit is flights, not miles

    No, I’m pretty sure it’s miles, totaling all flights.

  15. #15 Ted H.
    March 25, 2009

    #11,

    For the record, the standard measurement for pilots is hours flown, so I assume this pilot had 2,000 hours flight time, which for a professional pilot really is not that much.

  16. #16 Coyote
    March 25, 2009

    How pathetic.

  17. #17 Matt
    March 25, 2009

    Will christians ever realize their evil? This story makes me literally sick. Quite literally- sick. In a world of such good and beauty, they defile young minds with images of death and eternal punishment. I’m gonna be sick again… so many tears…fuck.

  18. #18 Northernskeptic
    March 25, 2009

    what an utterly horrible excuse for a human being, preaching “god’s love” while reveling in the pain and suffering of such a grief stricken family is disgusting. any god who would punish somebody by killing their family is a vicious sadistic piece of %$#@, oh wait this is the same god that was responsible for leviticus…gah! when will this mind virus finally die?

  19. #19 cactusren
    March 25, 2009

    I think pilot experience is generally measured in hours of flight time, actually.

    From the article:

    This memorial, located a short distance west of the church, was erected as a dedication to all babies who have died because of abortion.

    So…the memorial has absolutely no meaning? Or again, there’s some serious need for a copy editor, as babies != fetuses != embryos. I don’t understand why that’s such a hard concept for some people.

    But then, I don’t understand why sympathy is such a hard concept, either. People like Gingi Edmonds make me wish that Hell existed, but I doubt even that inferno could thaw her cold, shrivelled heart.

  20. #20 Mr Z
    March 25, 2009

    Having a goodly number of fundies in my family tree and some atheists, I have to say that dealing with the fundies is a case of realizing that they are actually delusional. They truly believe in the twisted fairy tales from the Bible. They ignore logic and decency because to not do so destroys the foundations of how they have built their lives.

    Good things happen to bad people because satan is trying to tempt us. Bad things happen to good people because they did not listen to the right deity. These people have been brainwashed, and in as much as I have some capacity for compassion and tolerance, I sometimes wonder if we couldn’t just find a vaccine for this illness. Logic is not easily injected to those afflicted with this disease. Much like you would not belittle someone suffering turrets disease, can you really hate these people deep in your being?

    She had to make it an ‘I told you so” moment because that is the ONLY conclusion she can draw from her brainwashed mind. The world has to fit the prophecy of her delusion, so this tragic accident HAD to have happened because he did not devote his life to the right deity. The accident is sad beyond words. Almost as sad is that there are a great number of people who can draw no other conclusion than he must be disobeying the deity.

    BTW, 2000 hours is a not a lot of flying time, so rather than 2000 miles or hours, it’s probably flights; like fighter pilots count experience in the number of sorties flown.

  21. #21 Jim B
    March 25, 2009

    What a nitwit. Too bad there is no way to leave comments with the article.

    It seems a good counter point would be to bring up any recent tragedy involving a church — say a shooting, or a roof collapse — and suggest that if what Ms. Edmonds implies is true, then what does it imply about those other deaths?

    Just about everybody suffers from confirmation bias, but many suffer from it badly in complete ignorance of the concept.

  22. #22 raven
    March 25, 2009

    Irving Feldkamp is the father of two and grandfather of five who were killed in that accident; he lost a shocking great swath of his family in that one sad afternoon.

    OK, 14 died and 7 were Feldkamps. Which leaves 7 who were not Feldkamps.

    So what are they besides dead? Collateral damage? You would think an all powerful diety could shoot straight, wouldn’t you? Does this mean that god is getting old and needs glasses or just doesn’t care much who he kills?

    Or maybe this is just fundie xians doing what they have to do. Being evil as usual.

  23. #23 Twin-Skies
    March 25, 2009

    There are probably worse things than hateful contempt for your fellowmen veiled in piety and religious fervor, but I can’t think of any right now. I’m too angry to engage in proper, rational thought.

    Gingi Edmonds, for somebody who claims to have love and compassion for the unborn who you see as “slaughtered,” you’ve just proven how heartless you’ve become in chasing your agenda.

    Btw, thanks for the link.

    http://www.gingiedmonds.com/

  24. #24 Evangelatheist
    March 25, 2009

    I couldn’t help but send a little note to this xtian:

    You are truly a heartless, evil, uncaring wretch of a human being. I suggest you practice a little more of what you preach: “you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you”. (Ezekiel 35:6). You should not be celebrating this tragedy! It is christians like yourself that make me wish that the vengeful god you in which you believe is real so that he might smite you. Evidence, however, suggests that there are no gods. As such, I hope you can live with yourself and your inexcusable gloating.

    Renounce your foolish belief in nonexistent gods and learn to let reason rule your life. You’ll be a happier person.

    Your Friendly Athiest.

    May not do any good, but if she feels bad for even one second then I have done my job tonight. I’m afraid, however, that this one has visited the jesus camp a few too many times. Her email is gingi@gingiedmonds.com in case anyone else wants to express your outrage but doesn’t care to visit her site.

  25. #25 Marcus Ranum
    March 25, 2009

    Wow, they show an almost papal disregard for someone else’s misfortune!

  26. #26 alextangent
    March 25, 2009

    Evangelatheist AM #24;

    I did the same and sent her an email. Here’s mine;

    Subject: Your offensive piece requires an apology

    To: gingi@gingiedmonds.com

    I read your piece on the deaths of the Feldkamp family with mounting disgust. If your intention was to develop your reputation as a person with not a shred of humanity or an iota of decency, and as someone whose very core is rotten with revenge and hatred, you have succeeded admirably.

    You may never realise the magnitude of the offence you’ve caused. But if you think about what you’ve said, and the reaction to it — and you shouldn’t have to think too hard — you might learn a little and want to reconsider what you wrote.

    Whether you get it or not, you’re due a lot of people an apology. Start with Bud Feldkamp.

    I don’t expect a reply.

  27. #27 Doo Shabag
    March 25, 2009

    #6

  28. #28 Keevan
    March 25, 2009

    raven @ 22

    The other two were the husbands of his two daughters.

  29. #29 Keevan
    March 25, 2009

    Wait, I misread your post… disregard that.

  30. #30 clinteas
    March 25, 2009

    People like that just disgust me.
    Well said,PZ.

    And,”Survivors of the Abortion Holocaust”,WTF?

  31. #31 Susannah
    March 25, 2009

    We warned him, for his children’s sake, to wash his hands of the innocent blood he assisted in spilling because, as Scripture warns, if “you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you”. (Ezekiel 35:6)

    …I think of the haunting words, ‘Think of your children.’

    Because the God she serves “visit(s) the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation…” (Ex. 20:5 KJV) But God got impatient; He couldn’t wait around for the great-grandchildren.

    I pray that God will use this unfortunate catastrophe to soften the hearts of Bud and Pam and that they will draw close to the Lord …

    I wonder if she was praying beforehand that God would use the children for this purpose? (I’ve heard prayers like that.)

  32. #32 raven
    March 25, 2009

    Look at it on the bright side. Using this wackos reasoning, god took out JD Kennedy and Falwell. Phillip Johnson, the Boalt Hall Lawyer and the father of ID isn’t doing so well either. He has had several small strokes at a relatively young age.

    Oddly enough, if you wait long enough, god will inevitably smite those people you don’t like. One day he will get Gingi Edmonds too, although it could be tomorrow or decades from now. But he has terrible aim. While the Feldkamps children and grandchildren are gone, Feldkamp himself is still alive.

  33. #33 TheEngima32
    March 25, 2009

    < >

    No, of course not. They’re Fundies. The sense of moral decency was sold separately.

  34. #34 Twin-Skies
    March 25, 2009

    @raven

    As cliche as it sounds, some there are far, far worse things than dying. One of them, at least as my uncles used to say, is realizing you will outlive your grandchildren. My heart goes out to Mr. Feldkamp – I can only guess the depth of turmoil his life must be in right now.

  35. #35 TheEngima32
    March 25, 2009

    Oops! My comment #33 was in response to #1. Somehow, my makeshift quote got eated.

  36. #36 Randy Owens
    March 25, 2009

    …youth activists stood outside of Feldkamp’s mini-mansion in Redlands holding fetal development signs….

    “Fetal development signs”?!? Nice way to euphemize what your’e up to there, Gingi.

  37. #37 prettyinpink
    March 25, 2009

    Yeah, it’s a nightmare over at Jill’s. I was nicer to them than I should have been. You see Christians’ true colors after a tragedy like this.

  38. #38 Pascalle
    March 25, 2009

    But PZ. You should know your bible!

    The bible doesn’t say “though shall not gloat over other people’s death”

    So it’s ok to do so.

    And they claim atheists have no morals.. pfff….

  39. #39 Rae
    March 25, 2009

    @PiP: And you’re surprised? $10 your post will be moderated or deleted by tomorrow for self-editing “assholes” on there.

  40. #40 prettyinpink
    March 25, 2009

    Rae, true. A lot of the mods over at Jill Stanek’s can be really fickle especially with posts that call them assholes…

  41. #41 Cokehead
    March 25, 2009

    The ‘I don’t want to x, but actually I do’ statement strikes again!

    I’m getting somewhat tired of this statement being used in conversation. How does this lessen your words, at all? “I don’t want to say that I hate your filthy guts, but I do actually hate your filthy guts.” It’s frustrating.

    As a humanist, I feel solemly for the family. Considering how it’d feel if I’d lost this many family members in one fatal blow…

    It seems inhuman to me to use the death of someone’s family member as a backdrop for your own political opinions!

    Why didn’t she just preach from the dead bodies of their children? It’d at least make her words a little more sincere, and her intention much clearer.

  42. #42 Conversational Atheist
    March 25, 2009

    “Don’t ever preach at me about Christian morality: I’ve seen it, and it is empty of love for humanity, replaced with sanctimonious idolatry and commitment to dead, dumb superstition.” – PZ

    The worst part about it is that I am sure that Gingi does not feel like she is being a horrible person with what she wrote. It would be much… easier to accept if you could tell that she was thinking that she was being an ass with what she was saying. Instead, her religion has twisted her innate human compassion into a grotesque parody.

    With every passing day, stories like this come out and spur me to keep up the good fight.

    PZ, thank you for fighting against this harmful superstition.

    - Conversational Atheist

  43. #43 Leigh Williams
    March 25, 2009

    I sent the following email to this despicable excuse for a human being:
    ————————–

    There are no words to express how loathsome this article is. What kind of twisted mind takes such joy in the deaths of children — actual born, living, growing CHILDREN?

    Let me remind you that Jesus told us, “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” What do you imagine He will say to you when your actions here on earth are reviewed? He will say to you, “As you did, so will I do to you. Go from me; you said ‘Lord, Lord,’ but you knew me not.”

    You need to stop meddling in the world’s business and take heed for your own soul. Your immaturity and selfishness have blinded you to the evil living in your heart, and you are in the service of darkness.

    You defame the Name and smear all other Christians with your vile words. Repent before you do yet more damage to the Body.

    In Him, but most emphatically NOT in fellowship with you,

    Leigh Willliams
    Austin, Texas
    ——————————————–

    I also doubt I’ll get a reply. On the other hand, and to my sorrow, I speak her language. But let’s face it: someone this arrogant and cruel at the age of 23 is probably not salvageable. God only knows what further atrocities she will commit before she has to face the music.

  44. #44 HalfMooner
    March 25, 2009

    Gingi Edmonds’ story is every bit as disgusting an exploitation of the deaths of innocents as any I’ve ever heard of.

    The palpable satisfaction Ms. Edmonds displays can only be compared to… well, right now I can think of nothing to equal it.

  45. #45 Twin-Skies
    March 25, 2009

    We warned him, for his children’s sake, to wash his hands of the innocent blood he assisted in spilling because, as Scripture warns, if “you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you”. (Ezekiel 35:6)

    Priceless. Robertson and Falwell couldn’t have wished for a better pupil to emulate their legacy of religion-shrouded bigotry

  46. #46 woodstein312
    March 25, 2009

    Has she no decency? At long last, has she no decency?

  47. #47 Matt
    March 25, 2009

    I am shocked beyond words. I suppose the anti-abortion loons only care about human life when it’s not on Earth. Otherwise, they’re able to exploit human tragedies in order to further their own agenda. As someone else said, what do tragedies at churches imply, then?

  48. #48 Teleprompter
    March 25, 2009

    @ woodstein312, #46

    Apparently not.

  49. #49 Mikewot
    March 25, 2009

    Wrote to the witch as well
    [QUOTE]Ms Edmonds,
    I have read your article titled above. It was, without question, the most hideous and evil thing I have ever read. You have nothing of human kindness or decency about you. I sincerely hope you never lose any family members and then read some appallingly unsympathetic, unempathic, offensive attack such as you’ve written. Or perhaps if that did happen you might find a conscience and understand just how dreadful your writings are.

    A very sickened
    Mike[/QUOTE]

  50. #50 Mikewot
    March 25, 2009

    Had a reply within minutes. One sick person:

    I am merely making valid observations on factual events. I take no delight in these deaths and have had Feldkamp in my prayers long before you ever heard of him. I mourn the deaths of his children as equally as I mourn the deaths of the ones he profits from.

    But hey! Thanks for taking the time to write!

    Gingi Edmonds
    http://www.gingiedmonds.com

  51. #51 Nerrin
    March 25, 2009

    This is probably the thing that hacks me off the most about religion. Any religious beliefs. People see someone who does something they don’t like, and when someone close to that person dies — someone as innocent as can be — they declare it the divine punishment of the survivor. It’s reducing the dead down to tools used to teach someone a lesson. As if it’s remotely just for the innocent to die to punish the guilty, as if other people don’t exist. This is outright sociopathy dressed up as morality and it just makes me want to retch. I’ve never considered myself an outright atheist (agnostic at best), but expressions of “piety” like this drive me more towards it every day.

  52. #52 Twin-Skies
    March 25, 2009

    @Mikewot

    I only hope and pray that in the face of this tragedy, Feldkamp recognizes his need for repentance and reformation. I pray that God will use this unfortunate catastrophe to soften the hearts of Bud and Pam and that they will draw close to the Lord and wash their hands of the blood of thousands of innocent children, each as precious and irreplaceable as their own.

    Her letter implies that there is some sort of “divine retribution” angle to this horrific accident and to Bud’s own activities.

    There isn’t – just attempts by one obviously misguided fundie to put two and two together.

  53. #53 Pat
    March 25, 2009

    Cue “God’s angry about the nine-year-old in Brazil getting an abortion” in three…two…

    What I truly hate is the complete lack of thought inherent in the tradition of Christianity, or any cultish franchise of better-than-thou. Don’t question, don’t think, don’t for a moment doubt the “meaning” in everyday events or the vault of heaven will come crashing down. Shades of gray are evil because they force people to think, and thinking is anathema to power. Always has been.

    So how do we stop it? It’s something that could infect anyone at a moment of weakness or when confronted with the harsh accident of personal tragedy.

    There are two avenues to contain the damage: going after franchising and recruitment, and going after inherited membership.

    Inherited membership can be reasoned with, and many people do eventually question what they are brought up in. Out-there non-religious folks are needed as examples, and teaching critical thinking and its power to predict rather than the shoddy track record of praying is necessary as well. Live well, hold yourself to high standards, help others. A good example is eventually questioned on how they live so well. It’s a page right out of Mormon informal doctrine, but it works.

    But there is still franchising and recruitment.

    The most dangerous are the ones that franchise and recruit, similar to Amway or Scientology. To maintain an expanding and profitable franchise requires strict discipline, i.e. no thinking. Not all fundamentalists are of this bent, so it’s important to go after rapidly-spreading varieties before tackling deeply entrenched but slower-spreading types. Be aware of any that strictly control new recruits (compounds, youth-retreats, bible camps, shunning and separation, religious schooling). These practices aren’t restricted to tiny bizarre personality cults. You can see much of it in Acts: it is frighteningly accurate in describing cult establishment and franchising.

    Bring attention to fanatical personality-controlling compounds, provide news leads to local papers. Scientology is included in that list, to be sure. Cover the danger to youths as an angle. What parent wants some cultist recruiting their children on campus? It is important not to falsify information or provide vindictive half-truths (as in the compound in Texas raided because of a disturbed woman in Colorado). These rocks are soiled enough underneath without embellishment.

    Sorry to go off like this, but these are some of the things I think about when asking the question “but what can we do?”

    Provide plenty of daylight and fresh air, and keep fanning the fumes.

  54. #54 Taliesan
    March 25, 2009

    My letter:

    Thank you Miss Edmonds. You have demonstrated to me, and many other atheists, just how sick, depraved and disgusting the Christian religious mind is.

    With a mind unfettered by God, I felt compassion for those who died in the crash, and their families. You on the other hand saw fit to glory in those children’s deaths, as some sort of just retribution, proving once again that your religion is not about being a decent human being, but rather the reverse, a grotesque parody of one.

    To me, it was a tragedy. To you, it was a moment to say “I told you so,” to get up on your pulpit, and feel joyously self-righteously avenged by the deaths of innocents.

    While I could previously point to such events as the Catholic Church kicking out doctors for performing an abortion on a 9 year old girl and thus saving her life, but keeping the guy who impregnated her in the first place, or the Pope’s frankly genocidal policy on AIDS in Africa, or the various statements of guys like Jerry Falwell, your column is perhaps the most visceral expression of how deeply horrible one has to be to be a Christian.

    So again, I thank you for showing just what it takes to believe in “God’s love.”

  55. #55 Susan
    March 25, 2009

    The more everyone sees of this sort of fundie “compassion,” the clearer it becomes to anyone who’s still confused, that they’re pitiful, and their hate is infinite. “Heartless” is precisely right.

  56. #56 Evangelatheist
    March 25, 2009

    @Mikewot #50
    Got the same reply with an extra bit:

    Celebrating? Did you actually READ my article? My guess is no. Why don’t you actually read my article in context before you write an angry e-mails?
    I am merely making valid observations on factual events. I take no delight in these deaths and have had Feldkamp in my prayers long before you ever heard of him. I mourn the deaths of his children as equally as I mourn the deaths of the ones he profits from.
    And renounce my God? For what? Whatever heathen idol you’re banging rocks over? Haha.. no thank you! ^_^

    I fired back with a nice long email pointing out each of the nasty things she wrote (and corrected a few grammar errors that a “writer/journalist” shouldn’t make). I closed with “In atheist circles, we often say about people like you: ‘The stupid is strong with this one!’”

  57. #57 Drosera
    March 25, 2009

    This is entirely consistent with the nazi morality of the Christian God as displayed in the Old Testament (punishing children for the ‘sins’ of the parents, genocide, etc.).

    And they dare to say that we need religion for the sake of morality.

  58. #58 Taliesan
    March 25, 2009

    Evangelatheist

    I got this:

    Hey.. can I ask you a question? Are you pro-choice? Do you support the growing pile of minced baby pulp from the millions of innocent lives being slaughtered by abortion? Yes or no will do. You can spare me your poetic athiestic versions of hellfire preaching. ^_^

    To which I responded:

    I am pro-choice, because banning abortion doesn’t stop them happening – all it does is put teenagers in court rooms where juries have to struggle with sending someone who is confused, scared and suffering from the guilt of having aborted their child to jail. All it does is send the operation into the back allies, where the mother’s life and future is at risk thanks to the risk of infection.

    In an ideal society, birth control would always be used except in cases where the prospective parents want children – and there would be no abortions except in high risk pregnancies.

    But we do not live in an ideal society.

    A law is only a law if you are prepared to enforce it, and I have enough compassion not to enforce that one.

    Aside from that, whether I am pro-choice or not, I do not glory in innocent children dying, or the grief of their families. To me, the deaths of the children born of Nazis, is a tragedy. The child is not guilty of the “sins” of the parents.

    But to you, well it kind of explains how you can reconcile Job’s family being killed and then “replaced”, because to you a child is just a commodity to be taken away from its parents or grandparents as a punishment, not a person in and of itself.

  59. #59 Aenthropi
    March 25, 2009

    I find it stunning that she ruined a tragic story with children dieing with her chin dribble.

    Might anyone know the difference between women like her and the Cirque du Soleil? Hint: it is a Spoonerism.

  60. #60 Twin-Skies
    March 25, 2009

    To be honest, her pouncing on this tragedy was better executed than some other ghouls I’ve seen lately, like Jack Thompson. *Brrrr*

  61. #61 astrounit
    March 25, 2009

    “I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment…”

    Man…

    What a rotten, hostile bitch.

    And this in an ARTICLE? AN ARTICLE on Christian Newswire? They should all hang their heads in shame.

    So much for the much-vaunted value of religion as a source of morality. It’s clear it’s a source of unspeakable IMMORALITY.

    I’m so pissed I’m shaking.

  62. #62 Liberal Atheist
    March 25, 2009

    The fact that they’re not trying to hide the darkest sides of their idiotic superstition and beliefs, suggests to me that they may truly believe what they claim to believe. If they knew it was wrong, or irrational, they would probably have tried to hide it.

  63. #63 Andy James
    March 25, 2009

    What else would you expect from a pig but a grunt.

  64. #64 Con-Tester
    March 25, 2009

    What virtually all of these religiously motivated anti-abortionist nuts conveniently disregard is the fact that worldwide, their god currently aborts some 30 to 40 million human foetuses annually through miscarriages. This is compounded with some eight million infant deaths annually.

    ?Mysterious ways? hardly begins to cover it. The thalidomide rabbits that anti-abortionists pull out of their hats in order to explain that one are a sight to behold.

  65. #65 Twin-Skies
    March 25, 2009

    @Taliesan

    She equated pro-choice with pro-abortion.

    My question to her:

    Do you support the millions of children around the world doomed to a lifetime starvation, neglect, and abuse, who didn’t have to be introduced to such horrific situations had their parents been given a choice?

  66. #66 Hadron
    March 25, 2009

    I had a look at some of Ms Edmonds other articles. It seems she knows she was being offensive and actually set out to appear so.

    Why should we worry about not offending the baby killers? Killing babies offends me! If speaking the truth boldly is offensive, then pro-lifers need to get offensive. If pro-aborts want to get nasty, we can get nasty. At least our nasty doesn’t end up in a bucket of saline or a trash compacter.

    http://www.gingiedmonds.com/Feb18.html

  67. #67 shonny
    March 25, 2009

    Ooch, godfuckers doing what they know best, – proving that their existence is an abomination.

  68. #68 Miguel
    March 25, 2009

    Gingi Edmonds, go fuck yourself you sanctimonious, ghoulish cretin. Pro-life activist my arse; death cultist is more like it.

  69. #69 kencabbit
    March 25, 2009

    This article made me do something I rarely do. I emailed the author. I left her faith alone rather than have her dismiss me as an Atheist, and even gave her a little nudge about what she really should do if she wants to be one of those, compassionate, caring about life Christians people like to talk about.

    This is what I sent:
    ———-
    Your exploitation of the tragic death of children in order to claim a grim satisfaction for your own moral crusade is plain and simply evil. Fighting against abortion as a moral outrage and despicable practice is one thing–but your complete lack of compassion is reprehensible and unchristian. You are the one who should be repenting for writing this hateful, judgmental perversion of a tragedy for your own ends. If you truly believe in your Christian faith and ideals, I urge you to pray for forgiveness.
    ———-

    Of course, praying won’t do her any good for anything, but that’s for another email all together.

  70. #70 abys
    March 25, 2009

    @50

    Just amazing what sort of twisted mind this woman has. Since when has leaps of blind, maligned faith (as opposed to leaps of logic) been considered ‘facts,’ beyond playing a game of connect-the-dots where she’s making her own dots to make a picture of a crucifix out of a picture of something else entirely?

    And how the frak does her “knowing about the Feldkamps longer than you” justify/validate her disgusting opinions over others?

    Unbelievable.

  71. #71 JCmacc
    March 25, 2009

    Yet another example of the bizare but oddly common fundamentalist mind-set. Many of the crazed anti-abortionists are also pro-death penalty and, like this example, gloat over the deaths of people who disagree with them.

    As said by others, it’s like they have an idea of an absolute right to life that ends at the moment of birth. What is it they hate about the post-partum people ?

  72. #72 Morsky
    March 25, 2009

    Disgusting, ghoulish parasitism on the grief of others – pretty much standard MO for any religion.

    What’s even more disturbing, however, are her chirpy, ^_^ – filled responses to some of you who have sent her e-mail. Such proud, smug ignorance of… well, pretty much anything. Embriology, logic, world religions… This is agressive, smug ignorance in all its ugly, preening glory.

  73. #73 kencabbit
    March 25, 2009

    Gingi Edmonds wrote:
    > Trust me sweetie, I have been praying for Irving Feldkamp long before you read headlines and even knew he existed. ‘Lack of compassion’? What a joke!
    >
    > Gingi Edmonds

    To which I reply:
    I’m sure you pray for lots of people. However, if this rant you’ve posted is indicative of how you ‘pray for’ somebody, then I humbly request that you never pray for my sake. If you believe you’ve shown compassion with your words, then you do not know what the word means.

    I’ll help you out:
    Compassion: a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.

  74. #74 Pwnzerfaust
    March 25, 2009

    What a sick bitch. Sometimes I wish there was a hell, just so people like this could burn in it.

  75. #75 LogicLad
    March 25, 2009

    Without doubt the most sickening thing i have read in a while. I honestly don’t understand how some one who can write a piece like that could sleep at night, and she is Pro-Life apparently, dosn’t really look like it from this angle. i am simply reminded of the saying ‘good people do good things and bad people do bad things, but for good people to do bad things takes religion.’

  76. #76 MissPrism
    March 25, 2009

    They protested at his “mini-mansion”? I thought a mini mansion was usually called a “house”. But then, I suppose “we went to his house with gory pictures hoping to intimidate and incite violence against him and his family” doesn’t show you in quite such a good light.
    Fucking vultures.

  77. #77 flea
    March 25, 2009

    This is what christianity and dogma does to the human mind, it kills all natural decency and compassion and provides an alibi to behave like a monster.

  78. #78 Roy Frattinger
    March 25, 2009

    I have never written a comment in my life but this incident sickens me by beyond belief. I cannot believe a so called “Christian” Would say such a thing. It boggles my mind and just affirms all the more why I am an atheist. That someone could actually say this is beyond belief. I suppose this says more about Christianity than anything I have heard. Rot in hell Gingi Edmonds. May you never poison this earth again.

    Roy Frattinger
    Melbourne Australia

  79. #79 Jord
    March 25, 2009

    I wish I had the power to wake the slumbering beast called Anonymous and have it bring down some truly righteuous fury on this crazy fundie. Not a shred of humanity left in that empty shell of a woman.

    AND, using their ‘logic’ for a minute here: Taking into account the ‘fact’ that unbaptized babies go to heaven now (instead of spending eternity in Limbo, thanks Mr. Pope-man) and that fetuses are babies, shouldn’t they welcome abortions? I mean: no suffering, express ticket to Heaven. What, are they jealous?

  80. #80 Cedric Katesby
    March 25, 2009

    Sent her an email expressing my disgust.
    Also sent a quick “thumbs down” e-mail to Christian Newswire. Might not be able to reach the witch but perhaps there’s somebody on the editorial staff of CN that has a sense of decency.

  81. #81 Strangebrew
    March 25, 2009

    And I bet not one good Christian… either clone priest pastor or evangelical… in her community would consider to publicly criticize her…cos it ‘was for jeebus after all’

    Such a ‘balanced’ comment will just add lead ballast to an already floundering xian dogmatic ark…
    With Christians like her they do not need atheists to sink the delusion!

    Sick bitch needs culling…like they do with mad cows!

  82. #82 kencabbit
    March 25, 2009

    Sent her one final email. She asked me, like some of you, if I was pro-choice:
    ——————–
    Yup.. that would be compassion. And I’ve clearly got much more than you’re displaying. You just seem to be a self-righteous noob who has approached me with a preconcieved notion of who I am and what I do. Is this possibly because you’re pro-choice, I wonder?

    Gingi Edmonds
    ——————–

    So I sent her this:

    My complaint with you has nothing to do with pro-choice or pro-life. In fact, I don’t believe I mentioned the issue. If you must know, although it remains beside the point, my moral stance is firmly against abortion. However, I actually want to make sure we have less abortions, so I support legal policies that I believe will actually reduce them. I’m not looking to get into that argument with you, as it has nothing to do with why I took offense at your article, and it’s a very naive assumption on your part to think that it does. Bud Feldkamp could be a serial rapist, ex-Nazi war criminal who actually eats the flesh of infants–it would still be beside the point I was making. It would still be wrong to exploit the death of his family. I’m trying to recall an instance where Christ looked at the death of innocent children, pointed, and then said “See? This is what happens, what did we learn?”

    I approached you with a notion of who you are. That notion was based on the words you wrote, and the information you’ve willingly provided on your website. That means I actually knew a little bit about who I was writing to, before I wrote! I had preconceived notions based on your own words, and nothing more.

    You on the other hand, have approached me with numerous preconceived notions. For example: You assumed that I had no idea who Bud Feldkamp was, you assumed I am pro-choice, and you assume that I am making a claim to be righteous and compassionate. I have no compassion for you, and I would never dare to claim righteousness.

    Enjoy the emailing–you seem to, anyway. For me, this will be my last reply. I just wanted to let you know that I found your words reprehensible, and in no way credit to your cause. It’s not good for your message of life to write things like this– perhaps this experience will be a learning opportunity. How have people perceived your words? I gather I’m not the only one who has taken issue.

    Good luck with Life
    [kencabbit]

  83. #83 FlameDuck
    March 25, 2009

    I can’t read that crap. I thought Clive Barker was grotesque. At least he acknowledeges his works are fiction.

    I think it’s about time we reinstate the ancient sport of “stage fights” between Christians and wild, hungry animals.

  84. #84 mwb
    March 25, 2009

    If it were not for the obvious revenge fantasy, I would suppose that to Gingi Edmonds that Irving Feldkamp is Susan Pevensie. Even though she demonstrates the usual cognitive dissonance of a death fetishist still attached to this world, the revenge fantasy does seem appropriate: harm befalling one because of the ‘sins’ of another.

  85. #85 shonny
    March 25, 2009

    Just to let you know:

    Writing to the cretin is a waste of time, – we are dealing with a godzombie, and, to boot, a blown lightbulb.

  86. #86 Cedric Katesby
    March 25, 2009

    Here’s her reply to my letter.
    Gotta love the “LOL” part.

    Is a non-Christian really trying to dictate who is a ‘good’ Christian and who is ‘terrible’ one? Seriously, whats the deal? I don’t try to dictate who is good and bad when it comes to you guys and your imaginary monkey gods. LOL!

    Gingi Edmonds
    http://www.gingiedmonds.com

  87. #87 Virginia
    March 25, 2009

    Oh dear. As I read that Gingi Edmonds part I thought I’m going to throw-up.

    That sick religiosity places their dogmas above children’s lives ?

    If I am made to read that part for a second time I might have serious brain damage.

  88. #88 kencabbit
    March 25, 2009

    @85:

    Yes it’s a waste of time, but I had time that needed wasting. And sometimes one feels a need to shake your fist at the brick wall even if it won’t knock it down… =)

  89. #89 Matt
    March 25, 2009

    “Imaginary monkey gods”?

    This woman truly is ignorant. I encourage all of you to write protest letters in opposition to her vile words. No child should be held accountable for the actions of their elders. Apparently, she also believes that pro-choice is pro-abortion, as if we take pride in the “slaughter and babies” and so on and so forth. Ah, to look upon such idiocy.

  90. #90 heddle
    March 25, 2009

    Myers,

    Don’t ever preach at me about Christian morality: I’ve seen it, and it is empty of love for humanity,

    Yes of course. Because the über-rational, who base their conclusions on evidence and evidence alone, and are careful to check their presuppositions at the door (not that they have any, mind you), are correct to characterize the morals of group of ~10^9 people by the bad behavior of a relative few. Those of us who are irrational and who lack such insight would erroneously consider the possibility that every group has repulsive outliers. But that?s because we compartmentalize and suffer from cognitive dissonance.

  91. #91 MadScientist
    March 25, 2009

    “Sanctimonious Idolatry” – great choice of words PZ; that pretty much sums up all religions, including the ones who don’t have any physical graven idols. So, the bastards (or bitch in this case) are chortling gleefully at the action of their vile murderous god which they insist is “loving and all-knowing”. I hope their god demolishes their church with a space rock and a few evil cretins are taken out as well but that any good people are spared. Looking at the bible, I don’t see much hope of the good guys surviving, but the a-holes are all OK.

  92. #92 Joel
    March 25, 2009

    For whatever reason, Reuters chose to run this story in the “Oddly Enough” section. Although, I don’t know what would be odd about prosecuting a pilot for failing to do his job.

    I’m sure Gingi would be quick to point out that the pilot was spared for his faith and the 16 who died were guilty of some sin and God was punishing them and their families.

    Crash pilot who paused to pray is convicted

    PALERMO (Reuters) – A Tunisian pilot who paused to pray instead of taking emergency measures before crash-landing his plane, killing 16 people, has been sentenced to 10 years in jail by an Italian court along with his co-pilot.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSTRE52N63B20090325

  93. #93 SEF
    March 25, 2009

    From the article, the plane was “a 2001 Pilatus PC-12 with the seating capacity of only eight”. So what was it doing carrying 14 people in the first place. The remaining 6 can’t all be crew (whose seating probably isn’t counted) if some were parents of the children. Children of ages 6-10 certainly need seats of their own. Even if there were unmentioned babies among the group, they generally require the space of a seat for their carry-cot or whatever (plus other luggage of course).

  94. #94 Heywood
    March 25, 2009

    My deepest condolences for the victims’ families.

    And as for the “Christian” author, I wish to spit in her face.

  95. #95 Kel
    March 25, 2009

    Why is a Calvinist criticising others on morality?

  96. #96 Amph
    March 25, 2009

    It occurs to me that those guys are so Old Testament. Christians in Europe and South America seem more New Testament. No death penalty, for instance, less hateful (see also Sam Harris on this topic). I know, JC may not always be Mister Nice Guy either, but in comparison to the fascist-God of the Old Testament he really is a congenial person.
    Remains the fact that you hardly ever hear this kind of crab from Jews, who only have an Old Testament – so perhaps those holy books are just an excuse for some people with sadistic minds full of resentment.

  97. #97 Anonymouse
    March 25, 2009

    @Weaponsofmassdeception

    Well spotted. I agree, probably 2000 flights as pilot in command. 2,000 miles is nothing – that’s a single longhaul and I doubt anyone gets all the certificates to make it as a commercial pilot while only doing 2k.

    I always take an interest in air accidents (and also funny stories about green pilots in which no one is harmed and there’s no damage). Sometimes people just make mistakes – whether they’re tired or in a hurry to do something. You only have to let your guard down once and that could be the end of your flying.

  98. #98 Strangebrew
    March 25, 2009

    I rather take exception to the ‘Christian Newswire’ organisation that printed this filth…

    She is just a twisted bitter dollop of fossilised dino sick…

    What is their excuse…?

  99. #99 Matt
    March 25, 2009

    Comment 95: PZ will never apologize for desecrating your ridiculous objects. I will stand against your false deity with every ounce of my strength.

  100. #100 Saxon
    March 25, 2009

    Have any of you read the entire article? It sure doesn’t sound like it.Such a mob mentality. This was a horrific accident, one that would be akin to a drunk driver who finally realizes he needs to sober up when he kills a large family. Pointing out that the man profits from owning 17 abortion clinics, and that he’s being prayed for by many people (first to stop dealing in death, and now for his loss and for those who he lost)…does not equal the horrid things you all seem to think.

    It is so easy to write nasty things about a person you might never meet, it’s like flipping off someone on the freeway that is going the opposite direction. You feel really vindicated for whatever slight you feel they dealt you…but how awkward it would be to have them come face to face with you sometime later.

    Can you imagine how much a young girl aches when she DID see one of those children face to face, then learns that they are dead? The original author asks that question, good grief man, of course she thought of that. That’s what hurts so badly. I know atheists can never understand what a Christian believes and feels, but please know, when we pray for someone, it is out of love.

    Warning a person from dangerous behaviors isn’t a bad thing. Inviting evil into your life by conducting money making deals that pay with the blood of innocent children is just asking for trouble.

    No one believes that God caused that accident. The fact is, evil is in the world. Bad things happen to good people all the time. Bud Feldkamp made millions off the deaths of preborn children, and now, he’s lost nearly all of his. How horrid is that? We can only pray that this tragic event will show him how precious life is, and he will choose to distance himself from the evil that we believe attacked his family.

    Trust me, Gingi is not revelling in anything. She is sickened by this. She’d seen these people, face to face, she’d prayed for them. They were strangers, but not. She spoke to one of Dr. Feldkamp’s friends, and was able to express her heartfelt condolences. He was of course very distraught, but even he was unaware of his friend’s business dealings.

    I know nothing I write here will be taken seriously, nothing will matter…you all have already made up your minds that she is the evil one, she is so bad. So be it. That is your right, freedom of speech and all. Just know, as a mother, I am very proud of her for bringing this story to light…and in the original that was clipped/snipped/edited…she asked for prayer for the whole Feldkamp family. She’s very brave, much more brave than I. This is a hostile, angry world, and all these posts prove that. As her mother, I can only pray that none of you have to sit by and hear such horrible things said about your child. Because, like I said, she was not gloating, she was not taking delight, she was extremely shaken by this event, and she felt it was important to share it.

  101. #101 kencabbit
    March 25, 2009

    @Saxon:

    I did in fact read the entire article. Why do you think I was enraged enough to write her?

  102. #102 Mike Doughney
    March 25, 2009

    Having heard Flip Benham, the then-head of Operation Rescue (now Operation Save America) make nearly identical comments back in 1997 about a doctor who had recently died in a plane crash, I realized back then that people with such amoral, cretinous beliefs are a substantial portion of the American population. Ever since then I have assumed that those who based every life decision on superstitious nonsense about basic causation – not necessarily always Christian, mind you, but inexplicably confident about their delusions – would simply disregard any rational thought. Events in the 12 years since then at a national level seem to have confirmed my assumption.

  103. #103 Strangebrew
    March 25, 2009

    SimoN #95

    Another abomination of humanity that totally misses the point of the thread…but still feels compelled to preach crass inanity.

    Even cretins have more awareness!

  104. #104 Michelle
    March 25, 2009

    Okay… this is the kind of shit I don’t want to read when I just woke up.

    Loathsome, evil, contemptible BITCH. Human life is nothing to them and their god. Her views are TWISTED SILLY by her religion.

  105. #105 Strangebrew
    March 25, 2009

    101#

    I know atheists can never understand what a Christian believes and feels

    You sure got that right sugar!

  106. #106 Daniel de Rauglaudre
    March 25, 2009

    Believers have a method to interpret God’s decisions:

    When something bad happens to their enemies, they say: “this is God revenge”.

    When something bad happens to them, they say: “it is a God test for our faith”.

  107. #107 Matt
    March 25, 2009

    #105:

    Don’t you dare use your threats. I have been an atheist for twenty-nine years, and I have only had a wonderful and God-free life. I am my own master. I do not require a deity for contentment and intellectual growth. I’ve made similar statements for two decades. My life has been splendid. Thanks for your concern!

  108. #108 Atheist Chaplain
    March 25, 2009

    Funnily enough I cam across this post again via “Stumble” and I see that in typical Christian fashion this typical “Christian” Gingi Edmonds is easily ably to justify her morally barren world view through her adherence to the big sky daddy.
    And please SimoN even you must see the absurdity of telling us that its OK to not believe in god, but not OK to go against him, the irony of that statement should shine as a beacon in the night, after all how can we go against something we believe only exists in the minds of sociopaths and the morally and ethically bankrupt.

  109. #109 notacrook
    March 25, 2009

    I sent this?
    __________________
    Dear Ms Edmonds

    I would just like to quickly express my disdain for you and this article – http://www.gingiedmonds.com/feldkamp.html.

    I don?t know how to describe a person who would revel in the tragic death of 14 people. Your obsession with dogma and ancient and outdated texts has taken precedent over you basic humanity. Most people looked at this crash as a tragedy accident but you looked at it as an opportunity and a victory for your cause.

    I hope you enjoy living under the rule of an imaginary god who kills innocent children just to make a point.

    Kind Regards,

  110. #110 bsk
    March 25, 2009

    Saxon:

    Your post shows clearly how far your mind has been ruined by your faith, and I can only assume the same is true for your daughter. Taking that into consideration, I find it difficult to condemn her as several others have here. Her case simply shows yet again that the human race will never be free until religion is eradicated.

  111. #111 Strangebrew
    March 25, 2009

    105#

    you can record your statement today 25.03.2009, let’s see what will happen to your life.

    Your bogey man is a vicious ignorant tool of the stupid…he has no power here…depart…We have no need of loathsome rhetoric…even less loathsome human beings…begone fool…before ya sky daddy realises you ain’t praying forgiveness for existing.

  112. #112 Taliesan
    March 25, 2009

    Saxon

    Oh fuck you. She was using the coffins of those kids as her little soap box and to tell a grieving grandfather that he deserved it.

    That is Christianity in action.

  113. #113 Frank Snow
    March 25, 2009

    Saxon, what is it with you people?

    What makes you so certain that no-one else has bothered to actually read the article, just because you’re proud of it and they’re offended?

    Why is it, that in the midst of all of the disgusting delight in this accident as some kind of opportunity for “spiritual reformation”, the author throws in a few tedious platitudes about your Sky-Daddy and you assume that makes it okay to express happiness in the idea that this was some kind of “lesson” for the family?

    I suppose it’s not exactly unlikely that someone would defend this nonsense. It’s just a bit bewildering that someone could look at the article, and these responses, and then accuse the people here of ignorance instead of the author.

  114. #114 Kel
    March 25, 2009

    The children are safe now with the Creator. They are innocent, God loves them therefore He took them back.

    Don’t ya just love it? God kills the innocent and he’s “protecting” them. God kills the guilty and he’s “punishing” them. It seems like death is not something to be afraid of after all, either way if you like being alive you’ve got an equal chance of God killing you indiscriminately.

  115. #115 Pete Rooke
    March 25, 2009

    When you give voice to these sentiments the obscene is animated and it infects us all in some small way. Likewise with the publication of various screeds authored by Fred Phelps and his clan. This cannot simply be boxed up now, it is forever among us. We are the media and we must all act as respnsible filters.

    I condemn the statement but I also condemn your treatment of the religious pilot who panicked in an emergency. He received a ten year prison sentence and has the deaths of many on his hands. Who among us is confident enough to predict how they themselves would act under such pressures. Perhaps he simply thought that their was no chance of any survivours anyway. This is after all the joke: “A plan carrying 200 crashes into the ocean, how many survivours are there? How many? None.”

  116. #116 Thomas
    March 25, 2009

    Throwing in the word “unfortunate” does not detract from the disgusting nature of her message: that the actions of the father somehow led to the destruction of innocent children. I am horrified that any religious activist would use such a tragedy, feign shock, and then make a statement that implied these events were divine retribution.

  117. #117 Christers are Nuckin Futz
    March 25, 2009

    It is not flights, nor miles, but hours. That is how pilot flight time is logged. In comparison, Captain Sullenberger, the Hudson Hawk, had over 19,000 hours. Remember to mention to your favorite Christer from Wingnuttistan that everyone involved in bringing that flight and it’s passengers to safety were union members, from the flight crew to the air traffic controllers and the ferry boat captains. So many godless Liberal union members. How did Invisible Sky Daddy miss the retribution potential?

  118. #118 bsk
    March 25, 2009

    Wait wait wait, didn’t Simon win the booby prize in Survivor: Pharyngula?

  119. #119 Thomas
    March 25, 2009

    Truthfully, I tend to chuckle at Simon. His nonsensical rants, lack of command over spelling, and inability to comprehend that which he’s responding to all add up in quite a hilarious way.

  120. #120 sioux laris
    March 25, 2009

    Saxon,

    Thanks for showing me your tunnel at the end of any light. That you are sincere is the deepest indictment I can make of a truly ugly, carefully ignorant of itself arrogance.

    [spits]

    How much harder it is to accept that ANY religious person can be other than bad with shits like yourself representing the “gentle and forgiving” side of their faith.

    [spits]

  121. #121 Pascalle
    March 25, 2009

    Now i understand why people voted simon off.

    I have been an atheist for 35 years.
    I’m still waiting to “see what happends with the rest of my life”

    No really.

  122. #122 Taliesan
    March 25, 2009

    bsk

    Yep.

    I think PZ can add Morphing to the list?

  123. #123 Justin
    March 25, 2009

    The man lost SEVEN family members in one day. Those parents lost their CHILDREN. And she thinks that now is a good time to get in a plug for her particular self-righteous cause? She must be utterly without empathy for any human being.

  124. #124 Strangebrew
    March 25, 2009

    118#

    think about this coincidence, abortion, kids, and cemetery

    Think about this coincidence…moron…your god killed innocent kids…but he spared you and mizzy bile to pollute the planet with the miasma of poisonous vicious sludge…your god is a fucking lunatic…or is that his followers?

  125. #125 csrster
    March 25, 2009

    “I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment…”

    That is such a revealing remark. It suggests to me that somewhere deep inside her twisted fucked-up little brainturd, there is some relic of a real human being screaming to be heard – something she hears as the faintest echo of a whisper suggesting that maybe she’s about to say something she shouldn’t. And so we get this pseudo-pre-apology.

  126. #126 Justin
    March 25, 2009

    “I know atheists can never understand what a Christian believes and feels, but please know, when we pray for someone, it is out of love.”

    We would never be able to understand as none of us were ever christians or members of other religious groups in the past.

  127. #127 Ponder
    March 25, 2009

    My name is Andrew Tucker. Matt @ #100? I choose to stand alongside you.

    SimoN? One day you and your kind will be extinct. Sooner the better.

  128. #128 FlameDuck
    March 25, 2009

    Because the über-rational, who base their conclusions on evidence and evidence alone, and are careful to check their presuppositions at the door (not that they have any, mind you), are correct to characterize the morals of group of ~10^9 people by the bad behavior of a relative few.

    Yes they are, because you are an enabler. It is moderate Christians like you, who give people like Fred Phelps and Gingi Edmonds the credibility to poison the minds of so many people with their vile hate and unchecked evil. If you don’t believe in the bible, why do you even bother calling yourself a christian in the first place?

    Death for Christian is seeing God, nothing to be afraid of, instead we are waiting for the time coming.

    Why wait? Knock yourself out! Go right ahead, we won’t mind. Lift your head up high and blow your brains out.

    I know, JC may not always be Mister Nice Guy either, but in comparison to the fascist-God of the Old Testament he really is a congenial person.

    Come on. Compared to the Old Testament God, even Hitler wasn’t so fucking bad. I mean Hitler only murdered 6 million Jews and Communists.

    Inviting evil into your life by conducting money making deals that pay with the blood of innocent children is just asking for trouble.

    First of all, there is no such thing as evil. Second of all, there aren’t any innocent children, the inherit the sins of their fathers, remember? Lastly as SimoN so desperately pointed out, they’re with God now, and perfectly safe and happy. So what’s your beef with abortion?

    You think Tripp Johnston is going to have a fighting chance at a normal life?

  129. #129 Gaga
    March 25, 2009

    FWIW, this is my exchange with her:

    > > From: Ga Ga
    > > To: gingi@gingiedmonds.com
    > >
    > > Nice article. What’s next? Those jews deserved the holocaust because they nailed jesus?
    > >
    > > You are a poor excuse for a human being. I hope you will find a heart someday.
    > From: dizneewench@yahoo.com
    > To:

    > Hello rude person! Excuse my impertinence in pointing out your hypocrisy, but do you support the holocaust of America’s children?
    >
    > Gingi Edmonds
    > http://www.gingiedmonds.com
    From:
    To: dizneewench@yahoo.com
    Hey you are psychic, too! I don’t think I have expressed my opinion on abortion one way or the other. So I don’t see how you can draw that conclusion.
    The only reason why I think you are a shame for the species is the heartless exploitation of a tragedy as an excuse to make a point.
    Since you are obviously unacquainted with empathy, I can only hope that you can some day see someone else exploiting a loss of yours during your grief.
    Perhaps that would give you some perspective…

    No response so far.
    I’ll happily admit that I sound like an asshole and pulled a Godwin from the get-go, but I was uh, just a *bit* pissed off…

  130. #130 faithless
    March 25, 2009

    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

    …stop sending emails to the woman. All it does is feed her ego. Telling her that she is wrong – either generally, or in the article she wrote – is rather like shouting at Stephen Hawking that he should just bloody well stand up and walk.

    If it’s not in DSM-IV as a recognised illness – ‘inability to put horrifying events in a proper perspective due to religious perversion’, then it’s going to make it into DSM-V.

    Westboro, Robertson, Edmonds — these are mould breakers, christianity untainted by christ-like virtues.

  131. #131 Matt
    March 25, 2009

    #127:

    Fuck you, Simon. I have relatives with cancer, and both of them are religious. I have no respect for the likes of you: fundamentalists that advertise for their religion by threatening damnation or conformity.

  132. #132 Rjaye
    March 25, 2009

    Justin, I think you nailed it. People who are self righteous and feel they can tell other adults how to live and believe have lost their empathy. They cannot see how others can believe as they do at all. They have to protect their delusion and ascribe other people’s “alien” behaviors and ideas as “sin” because it threatens their identity. It’s a phobia.

    As usual, it’s always about the “cause.” No suspicion that maybe the “cause” is a delusional sinkhole that hampers their very humanity in truly feeling care and compassion for a stranger in such dire circumstances.

    And Simon-what’s your deal (if PZ lets another comment slide through)? These drive-by whatevers are perplexing. Sometimes really headscratching. You have got to be a Poe, though how would I know?

    Metta.

  133. #133 Arwen
    March 25, 2009

    Even if I were stupid enough to believe in a sky fairy, these kind of people alone would push me into wanting to root for the “other side”. I always wondered why anyone would want to be a Satanist… bitches like this; if she’s right, I wouldn’t want to be on her side.

    Often, Xian friends tell me theirs is a vengeful God…. no, their descriptions of him tell me they fantasize about an evil god.

  134. #134 FlameDuck
    March 25, 2009

    Do not be arrogant, you WILL get a miserable life one day, next month, next year,

    Well, you’ve got to get credit to Stupid Boy here. he finally figured out that sooner or later, we’re all going to die. It might be next week, next month, next yeat, next decade, next century. But no one lives forever. Too bad he thinks it’s devine intervention. I mean the prediction that “Sooner or later you’re going to die”, is about as surefire a prediction as “SimoN’s next post is going to be filled with inane drivel.”

    I mean it’s like the gift that keeps on giving.

  135. #135 Cannonball Jones
    March 25, 2009

    So those 14 people died just to teach one man a lesson? Is that what she’s getting at? I thought the Big Fella Upstairs was meant to have changed his less-than-loving ways since back in the day when he used to instruct bears to tear kids to shreds for mocking the elderly?

  136. #136 david
    March 25, 2009

    Did ANY of you actually read her article?
    I first read Myers’ post and I thought my God! What are these wackos saying now? Are they like that nutty family that protests at the service mens’ funerals? I thought it would be necessary to respond and distance myself from the wackos. Before I did I read her article, all of it.

    However, after the read I did not come away with the same conclusions Mr. Myers did. I believe this was due to Mr. Myers drawing conclusions based on what HE thought She thought and adding descriptions such as hideous, evil article, moral cretin, monsters, grim satisfaction, payback, amoral pious hypocrites, bloody-handed god, death cult, horror and sanctimonious does not inform it is vindictive.

    I did NOT come away with the sense that she “makes it sound like divine retribution” but rather found her article to be worth my time to read.

    Mr. Myers could have done a much better job in the article or attacked some other issue and done better. I find myself now thinking Mr. Myers is the hateful one and wonder why he feels the need to do this?

  137. #137 bsk
    March 25, 2009

    David, let me guess: you must be another Gingi relative, right?

    Religion poisons minds, yours included apparently.

  138. #138 Wolfhound
    March 25, 2009

    You know, there are an inordinate amount of church buses that crash every year, killing all or most of the passengers. I wonder how offended/pissed/disgusted Gingi (isn’t that a dog’s name?) would get if a Muslim activist wrote a newswire article that pointed out how the author kept telling those Christians that Allah was the one true God and they needed to accept Him or suffer the consequences. I’m fairly certain Gingi and her ilk wouldn’t appreciate the “I told you so” treatment from somebody of another faith. I mean, Muslims have been telling Christians for centuries that their faith is false. Shouldn’t they listen before any more buses crash? Those who won’t heed the warning deserve what they get, obviously.

  139. #139 Scott
    March 25, 2009

    This reminds me of the nonsense scattered throughout the bible where it is implied people win/lose wars and live/die because of what other people considered to be a “sin”.

  140. #140 Strangebrew
    March 25, 2009

    127#

    It is not a threat, it happened to many peoples who desecrated Host.

    Like who ?
    Talking shit does not garantee that you are a impeachable source of such nonsense…

    Do not be arrogant

    Heal thyself clown!

    you WILL get a miserable life one day, next month, next year

    What a lovely Christian thought!

    until the doctor would say “you get a cancer, your life would end soon”

    Your Christian belief is such a well balanced and wise impediment!

    i hope you won’t be late at that time to ask for forgiveness.

    Yes you do…because then you can parrot the sick bitch that began …”I don’t want to say I told you so …but….”

    For fuck sake throw him overboard or deep six the troll in purgatory PZ…this idiot is very sickly…it would be a kindness.

  141. #141 Ponder
    March 25, 2009

    @ david #137

    “We warned him, for his children’s sake…”

    “I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment, but…”

    Which part of the article were you reading then?

  142. #142 kencabbit
    March 25, 2009

    #137

    I read the whole article. I actually read the whole article BEFORE I read the full PZ blog post. It did come off as if she was suggesting divine retribution. She went out of her way to argue that there was no known cause for the accident, as if it that was meaningful enough to devote a lot of time to. And it was meaningful, for her, since I feel she was suggesting that God had a hand in it, and I think most of the people here saw the same thing I did in that.

    It was disgusting. I didn’t need PZ Myers to point that out.

  143. #143 FlameDuck
    March 25, 2009

    Did ANY of you actually read her article?

    Yes. Just because you and Saxon are wrong, doesn’t imply everyone else didn’t read the article. I don’t want to turn this post on this tragic event into an excuse to call you useless cretinous morons. But you are.

    I did NOT come away with the sense that she “makes it sound like divine retribution” but rather found her article to be worth my time to read.

    Your time must not be worth much.

  144. #144 jasonk
    March 25, 2009

    I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment,

    Then don’t. Asshole.

  145. #145 Cedric Katesby
    March 25, 2009

    Did ANY of you actually read her article?

    Yes.
    Next stupid question?

  146. #146 Widgetas
    March 25, 2009

    @137
    Well I just read the entire article. You might have noticed that PZ removed all the incidental paragraphs explaining the crash, and the paragraphs talking about Feldcamp’s business dealings (are these true? I see no references).
    So we’re left with the biased ramblings of a self confessed zealot, who’s saying “Look! Look at the retribution! How great our god is visiting justice on those who now-I-come-to-think-of-it-are-innocent-of-these-’crimes’!”

    As such, f*ck her.

  147. #147 Frank Snow
    March 25, 2009

    Ah, David!

    Another one coming out of the woodwork unable to conceive of the idea that some people actually disliked that sanctimonious sack of drivel posing as an article, and thus assuming that they must not have read it.

    Try harder.

  148. #148 Doc J
    March 25, 2009

    @ #131 Faithless

    Unfortunately I am currently studying under a large portion of people who write the DSM criteria. They are currently cranking out DSM-V (probably due end of this year) and while they are apparently going to replace “borderline personality disorder” with “emotional intensity disorder,” there is going to be no new entry for those unable to cope with things properly due to their religious affiliation.

    Shame, though.

  149. #149 Morsky
    March 25, 2009

    #137: Really now?

    Pray tell, what did you come away with from this loathsome, heartless piece of deranged propaganda?

  150. #150 Piltdown Man
    March 25, 2009

    Leigh Williams @ 43:

    Let me remind you that Jesus told us, “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” What do you imagine He will say to you when your actions here on earth are reviewed? He will say to you, “As you did, so will I do to you. Go from me; you said ‘Lord, Lord,’ but you knew me not.”

    You mean Gingi goes to Hell?

    Leigh, I didn’t think you had it in you. And there was me thinking you were “probably not salvageable”!

  151. #151 Canuck
    March 25, 2009

    What a loathsome person to write that garbage. Sanctimonious pricks like that make me want to puke.

  152. #152 Desert Son
    March 25, 2009

    There’s a line spoken in the HBO television series Band of Brothers, in the last episode (“Points”), when a German army colonel surrenders to one of the central characters of the show, Maj. Richard Winters. The surrender is quiet and serene, not in the midst of exploding shells and bloody bodies, though World War II still goes on. The colonel says, having formally surrendered,

    “I wonder what will happen to us when there are no more wars to occupy us.”

    I thought of that upon reading the post, Edmonds’ commentary (and for all her insistence that she was just “reporting facts,” it was commentary), and the thread, including Saxon’s comment.

    “I wonder what will happen to us when there are no more wars to occupy us.”

    Gods have been one of the oldest and most driving inspirations for human conflict, even if only as a mask for economic and territorial gain. The sinister ingenuity of gods is that, when all other wars to occupy us have ceased, there exists another reason, readily at hand and needing little or no justification in order to once more beat plowshares into swords.

    Even if some mighty supernatural calamity swept down from the sky today and wiped the earth clean of any who had ever had an abortion, had ever contemplated an abortion, had ever performed an abortion, had ever entered into a discussion about abortion, was ever destined (in the absurd Calvinist sense) to have an abortion, or had ever stood in solidarity and comfort for one who had an abortion, then I submit that by tomorrow those dancing on the smoking corpses in celebration of righteous vindication would turn their gaze upon someone else tomorrow, all the while whetstones coursing sparks from the edges of their blades.

    Supremely ironic in the darkest sense is the fact that, if gods really existed, and if they had agency in the world as claimed by followers down through the ages, then the gods themselves have been the most extensive and efficient performers of abortion in history. If worshipers of the supernatural value collections of developing cells so much, why then do they clamor with such fervor for those spirits supposedly at work in the world clearly responsible for destruction of those cells in numbers so large as to shake the senses?

    As a final word to Saxon, to which I must hope I receive no reply, as I find this all too sad, I will reveal that I was brought up an Episcopalian, raised as a believer in that church, and clutching that belief for many years, until slowly reason and thought and reflection brought me to realize that I do not believe in gods, and that however much I may enjoy fiction invoking wizards and vampires and dragons and ghosts and psionics and powers from beyond, that such art as employs those devices does not make those elements true to life, except as concepts of imagination born of our own biochemistry. To suggest that many here could not understand Christians and Christianity is to partake of the No True Scotsman fallacy, suggesting as it does that those of us from Christian backgrounds were not, in fact, “doing it right.” I submit that the manner in which we were doing it was, if nothing else, another signpost on the road pointing us to abandonment of the supernatural.

    I have a long day ahead of me, and am sorry I began it by reading about Edmonds’ loathsome missive. Some days start that way, after all.

    No kings,

    Robert

  153. #153 Ken
    March 25, 2009

    This is heinous.

    But it does not accurately represent the majority of those who profess Christian faith. My guess is that it may represent many of the folks who claim to be Christian with whom Mr. Myers has contact, but there is a selection bias operating there.

    The anger at this person I understand. But the overgeneralization here is not too unlike the overgeneralization in which some Christian groups all too frequently engage about atheists (for example, seeing Harris & Klebold as somehow representative of atheism). When it tries to be inclusive, Christianity necessarily makes itself vulnerable to manipulation by folks who are hateful.

    I have been in various communities of faith for 39 years, some liberal and some very conservative. I have never heard anything but shock and dismay at comments such as these from any of the members of my Christian communities. The voices that get this sort of publicity are the most extreme. How does the Amish reaction to West Nickel Mines fit into to Mr. Myer’s worldview that he confirms using this foul set of comments? How does the experience of the vast majority of Christians confirm Christianity as a cesspit?

    For claiming rationalism, the argument suggested in this posting is impressively illogical. All it does is provide fodder for those Christians who would overgeneralize about how atheists are full of hatred toward them as people, people who apparently parade about proudly in a cesspit, a breeding ground for evil, according to Mr. Myers. Fine job elevating humanity here, P.Z.

  154. #154 catgirl
    March 25, 2009

    These people are so hypocritical. The Bible itself says that bad things that happen to people are not punishment for sins. In fact, I think it was Jesus who said it in the Bible. Also, the Bible says very little about abortion anyway, It says that forced abortion is wrong, but absolutely not the same thing as murder. I wish these people would spend more time reading the Bible and less time pretending it supports their hate.

  155. #155 bsk
    March 25, 2009

    Ken:

    So the majority of Christians don’t base their morality on the Bible or follow its teachings? I had no idea!

  156. #156 JP
    March 25, 2009

    I can’t help but get the feeling that this woman’s stance will be bolstered further when she spews upon receiving our emails, ” I”ve made the atheists angry….I must be doin somethin’ right, praise jeebus.”

  157. #157 comsympinko
    March 25, 2009

    Long time lurker, first time commenter.

    Christianity, like all religion, is evil. There’s no way around it.

    The great, wrenching void in my “soul” is not that it is empty of Christ or Muhammed or even the FSM, it is that by their very existence these entities rob this void of any possibility of it being filled by the universal belief that we as humans are given one go at this thing called life and that we exist in order to make certain that there is never a great, wrenching void within anyone because it is filled with the unconditional love of our fellow humans in the knowledge that we are all one and of one purpose: to love and cherish our fellow humans regardless of, dare I say, these “earthly” preoccupations of division.

    We are we, we are us, and we are they.

    Without gods all things are possible.

  158. #158 John
    March 25, 2009

    Rank delusion:

    1. “… also does abortions.”

    Don’t make me laugh please.

    2. “All I can feel is horror at the kinds of monsters who would find grim satisfaction in the death of 6 to 10 year old children…”

    Some people feel horror at the “grim satisfaction” over the death of the unborn.
    This man was killing babies for profit–although I am not partial to “divine retribution”.

    It is a sad irony.

    There is no logical basis for you feeling sorry for the “6 to 10 years olds” and not the unborn. Certainly not one that is not arbitrary (“Well, they were actual children!”)

    3. “Has Gingi Edmonds considered the possibility that that “small child in tow” that she ignored to shout slogans and wave signs at Feldkamp might now be one of the shattered dead lying in that field?”

    There is no reason to think not.

    4. “Is she aware that the Feldkamp family is probably haunted more by the good memories, the loss of ones they loved, than the hate shouted at them by religious fanatics?”

    How cute. But how is a protest against abortion “hate”?
    Don’t project your morals and world view on other people. Maybe, just maybe they believe that abortion is murder, and that it destroys a society.

    5. “Don’t ever preach at me about Christian morality: I’ve seen it, and it is empty of love for humanity, replaced with sanctimonious idolatry and commitment to dead, dumb superstition.”

    It’s not any better on your side. The Soviets and Chinese government (not to mention Pol Pot) showed us that one–although you’ve yet to take responsibility for it.

    I want you to explain (with your much-loved “rationalism”) why this death is any less tragic than your run-of-the-mill abortion; or why a 6 year old is empirically worth “more” than a baby in the womb.

    Or better yet, why you don’t just tell women who have had a miscarriage to “Get over it! It wasn’t a real baby anyway. It wasn’t worth anything.”

    Stick to logic, eh.

  159. #159 dave
    March 25, 2009

    omg. wtf?! this is beyond despicable

  160. #160 Ranson
    March 25, 2009

    Desert Son/Robert

    That there’s a Molly-worthy post in my opinion. Cuts right to the heart of things.

  161. #161 John
    March 25, 2009

    Posted by: comsympinko | March 25, 2009 8:09 AM
    Long time lurker, first time commenter.
    Christianity, like all religion, is evil. There’s no way around it.

    “Evil”?

    Wherever did you get that one from?

    Atheism is not “original”–it has no original ideas.

    I think that her apparent schadenfreude is “evil” if true, but then again my opinion doesn’t count.

    Where do you get your opinions about “good” and “evil” from and why should anybody else care about it?

  162. #162 Ploon
    March 25, 2009

    Comsympinko @ #158:

    Hear hear. Nice first post.

  163. #163 Gaga
    March 25, 2009

    @159
    two wrongs do not make one right.
    whatever your view on abortion is, exploiting a tragedy to gloatingly make a point is beyond contemption, regardless of the validity of the point.

  164. #164 Geek
    March 25, 2009

    John #159

    There is no logical basis for you feeling sorry for the “6 to 10 years olds” and not the unborn.

    By the same argument, you could extend this to all spermatozoa. And no getting around that with “Well, they were actual children!” You just ruled that one out. Oops.

  165. #165 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 25, 2009

    John, religion has bad ideas. If you don’t believe it, read the bible cover to cover. What part of slavery do you like?

  166. #166 Ploon
    March 25, 2009

    Is it time yet to start with the jokes? Do you think her middle name is Vitis? That could explain her sour outlook on life.

  167. #167 Frank Snow
    March 25, 2009

    John at #159:

    “Don’t project your morals and world view on other people.”

    Said while defending anti-choice protesters picketing someone’s house.

    Good one.

  168. #168 10channel
    March 25, 2009

    Christians are not pro-life; they are pro-death. All of their preaching about death and afterlife proves it all already.

  169. #169 Eidolon
    March 25, 2009

    I have to wonder if the stupid bint Gingi understands that when you use the word “but”, you negate what was said prior? Thus, saying

    “I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual “I told you so” moment, but…” means that she really did want to make into some creepy “I told you so” moment.

    As for John@159 – you create a false equivalence when you try to justify your stand. As for empirical proof – the 6 to 10 year olds have independent lives and associations, fetuses have none of this. So yes, they are worth more.

  170. #170 Don Smith
    March 25, 2009

    So, the writer is saying that sacrificing children is a good way to teach a lesson about sacrificing children? Seems to be a paradox here.

    (pz) You bring up something that I find common in many stories about the loss of loved ones: Christians believe that their lives are so more important than others, including their loved ones, that their god will sacrifice those others to “teach them a lesson”. In other words, they learning a lesson from their god is so important as to make the life of the loved one so trivial that it can be in play to be sacrificed.

    I think back a few years to a husband and wife who had their five children in the back of their minivan when it was hit from behind and the van caught fire. They had to stand there and watch their five children burn alive. Their comment on national television was that God was teaching them a lesson. Apparently they thought their lesson was more important then the life ahead for each of the five children; the loves, adventures, and children in the future of those children were expendable just to teach the parents a lesson. I never could figure out what that lesson was and why they thought that lesson was more important than the lives of their children. Their god also thought it was so important that each child needed to feel the anguish of being burned alive.

  171. #171 Claire Binkley
    March 25, 2009

    I unfortunately don’t know enough HTML for quotes but here’s what I wrote to her:

    “Hello Ms Edmonds,

    I got your address from Pharyngula and have read some of the misspelled hatemail posted there (agh, athEIst. Not very hard. I go by the rule “i before e except after c or in atheism”. People are -ists. Like physicIST or oboIST.). I can only imagine how many from the atheist community have expressed outrage.

    No need for response, just a smidge of sympathy. We’re not all haters, the community of those who do not believe in any god.

    Claire Binkley”

  172. #172 Robert Davidson
    March 25, 2009

    While I share the dismay that motivated them, I can’t see that angry, critical emails to the author do anything except polarise the positions further – isn’t there a more useful response?

  173. #173 Sastra
    March 25, 2009

    John #159 wrote:

    There is no logical basis for you feeling sorry for the “6 to 10 years olds” and not the unborn. Certainly not one that is not arbitrary (“Well, they were actual children!”)

    All questions of value are ultimately going to come down to personal choice. There is no “logical basis” for valuing God, or thinking that, even if God exists, it has any more meaning than a rock, or a squirrel. In order to show that it does, you have to appeal to values outside of God, and hope and assume the other person shares them. All values are going to be ultimately “arbitrary” to the point that they are ultimately subjective, and contain that element of choice.

    Do not kid yourself that you can show that something has worth “because it gets it from God” unless you can first show that God has worth. That cannot just be granted up front: you have to do the work of philosophical justification. And given that we have no direct experience of God — but do have direct experience of other human beings and our intrinsic enjoyment and love for each other — it is much more likely that the donation runs the other way. And works whether God exists or not.

    There is no basis for ‘loving God,’ that does not also work for loving a child. And we all of us know there are children. Religious faith really is arbitrary.

    A child has more worth than an unwanted fetus because a child is a person, and a fetus is only a potential person. “Potential” is not a characteristic that something has — it is a might be.

  174. #174 10channel
    March 25, 2009

    @#159 John
    “There is no logical basis for you feeling sorry for the ’6 to 10 years olds’ and not the unborn. Certainly not one that is not arbitrary (‘Well, they were actual children!’)”
    So those heartless Christians felt sorry for either? I doubt it.

    “Don’t project your morals and world view on other people.”
    It is, after all, the Christians who are trying to push laws banning abortion. That is definitely projecting morals on other people.

  175. #175 Michelle
    March 25, 2009

    By their logic, if a plane full of children of pro-life parents crashes, it is a proof that God approves abortion.

    …Of course let’s hope it NEVER happens, WE are not bloody twisted sickos. I certainly don’t wish for ANY children to die to make a point.

  176. #176 Eidolon
    March 25, 2009

    Robert -

    What other response would you suggest? How about “Gingi – I was a bit disappointed that you chose to use the unfortunate deaths of children to reinforce your anti-abortion stand.”

    That mild enough? Look – by opening this window into her thoughts she revealed how she views the world. I think it is honestly twisted and sick. She needs to know that people are appalled by this.

  177. #177 ethicsfirst
    March 25, 2009

    After reading that sociopath’s expectorations I thank God I am an atheist.

  178. #178 Blue Girl
    March 25, 2009

    What kind of sick freak could worship a god like that?

    And what the hell kind of name is ‘Gingi” for a grown woman? That was the name of a Boxer my parents had to put down when I was a kid.

  179. #179 MissPrism
    March 25, 2009

    “why don’t you just tell a woman who’s had a miscarriage to get over it blah blah blah”

    Because that woman is a person, and if she hoped and planned and prepared herself to welcome and love a child who now will not exist, she will feel grief. Grief deserves compassion. People, feelings, compassion. Not so difficult really, for most of us.

  180. #180 10channel
    March 25, 2009

    @#176 Michelle
    “By their logic, if a plane full of children of pro-life parents crashes, it is a proof that God approves abortion.”
    Also by their logic, if two planes happen to fly into two tall buildings causing them to collapse, then it is proof that “god” hated everybody who died.

  181. #181 Pascalle
    March 25, 2009

    John #159 wrote:

    There is no logical basis for you feeling sorry for the “6 to 10 years olds” and not the unborn. Certainly not one that is not arbitrary (“Well, they were actual children!”)

    They are not children yet.
    Even the bible says it, not till after 1 month outside of the womb.

    The rule i keep for the distinction between a fetus and a baby is: If you take it out of the womb.. and it breathes by itself and doesn’t die within the first hour, it’s a baby.
    If it dies, it wasn’t.

    I put in the hour, because i do know that a baby won’t die if it doesn’t get fed (mother’s) milk in the first hour after being born.

  182. #182 Rick Schauer
    March 25, 2009

    Saint Gingi and her moment of schadenfreude…bitch!

  183. #183 Stever
    March 25, 2009

    Since this monster seems to have the inside track on what motivates the almighty smiter, I wonder if she might publish what must have been the most horrible sins of the parents and grandparents of the estimated 50,000 children who were killed in the 2004 tsunami. Numbers-wise, the sinning would have to have been several magnitudes higher.

  184. #184 Carlie
    March 25, 2009

    I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment, but

    Anytime someone says “I don’t want to” or “I don’t mean to” and then follows it with a “but”, they’re most likely about to make an ass out of themselves.

  185. #185 Libbie
    March 25, 2009

    “Once again, I am confirmed in my opinion that Christianity is a breeder of evil, a cesspit in which the most hateful and inhuman commitment to lies and delusions can ferment. Don’t ever preach at me about Christian morality: I’ve seen it, and it is empty of love for humanity, replaced with sanctimonious idolatry and commitment to dead, dumb superstition.”

    Damn, PZ. Took the words right out of my mouth.

    This is a sickening story. Absolutely sickening. I feel awful for all those who lost loved ones in the crash, and the crazy prattling of the I-told-you-so crowd doesn’t help.

  186. #186 Robert Davidson
    March 25, 2009

    @Eidolon

    I’m not sure what response – I’m wondering how it could be done in such as way as to be clear, not minimising the appalling attitudes she has displayed (I agree that being mild is not helpful; it’s dishonest for one thing), but also not to dehumanise Gingi.

    I can’t see how really personal attacks help anything. What do you think?

  187. #187 ChirsKG
    March 25, 2009

    Dear Gingi Edmonds,

    Thank you for reminding me why I left the hateful, mean-spirited, abusive, nasty, pernicious cult called Christianity.

    Signed,
    Me

  188. #188 elbuho
    March 25, 2009

    PZ just announced on Twitter that he has totaled his car in the snow on the way to the airport, and is stuck in Glenwood, MN

  189. #189 Endor
    March 25, 2009

    “Anytime someone says “I don’t want to” or “I don’t mean to” and then follows it with a “but”, they’re most likely about to make an ass out of themselves.”

    Absolutely. How often have the phrases “I’m not a racist, but” or “I’m not a sexist, but” been followed up with that which proves the speaker to be exactly those things.

    This woman is a ghoul, like all those who support the Forced Birth Agenda, dancing on the corpses of the dead, pretending it makes them superior.

  190. #190 Wolfhound
    March 25, 2009

    Robert, your concern is noted.

  191. #191 Aquaria
    March 25, 2009

    Yikes! I hope he’s okay!

    Cue the “I told you so” bots in 3, 2, 1…

  192. #192 KemaTheAtheist
    March 25, 2009

    #176 “By their logic, if a plane full of children of pro-life parents crashes, it is a proof that God approves abortion.”

    Nope, if that happened then it’s Satan’s doing…

  193. #193 Cuttlefish, OM
    March 25, 2009

    There is no tragic loss of life so great
    That someone, somewhere, who has a book to sell
    Or vile view to promote, cannot create
    A circus, a spectacle, a forum for their hate,
    A soapbox platform, from which they can tell
    The world–these sinful victims are in Hell.
    This crash–with seven kids among the dead;
    Whole families lost–is cause for countless tears,
    A time to comfort victims’ families. Instead,
    The horrid claim the families’ actions led
    To this. Their sinful lifestyle, it appears,
    Angered God. Now Gingi Edmonds cheers
    “Stack the coffins; I’ll use them for my stage!”
    And all my sadness turns itself to rage.

    http://digitalcuttlefish.blogspot.com/2009/03/if-i-stand-on-these-bodies-maybe-god.html

  194. #194 norzoc
    March 25, 2009

    It isn’t possible to drop a comment on Gingi Edmonds site. You have to write her a mail. She’ll know why pretty well

  195. #195 Ian Too
    March 25, 2009

    My Response:

    Hello Gingi,

    I’m writing to you not in anger but out of compassion. I’m sure you are currently buried under emails, many of them angry and abusive.

    You wanted people to read your opinion and now they have. You face the test of how well you react. If you choose poorly, your reputation may never recover and you will become a liability to your cause; so be careful what you do.

    That warning given, let me pass on to the point I want to address.

    To me you carry an injury as stark as a missing leg and just as I would want to help a cripple, I want to show you your deformity – because unlike a leg, your lack is a spiritual one and can, if you let it, regenerate.

    Your deformity Gingi, is that you lack compassion and that is a major failing, especially in someone who claims to follow Jesus of Nazareth. You have to ask yourself why you have sensibility, if it cannot tell you when the best response to a situation is silence.

    You see, there is no good way of saying ‘I told you so’ to someone in Feldcamp’s position and doing so publicly is only going to generate hostility. You cannot blame people for that, because you are the one at fault.

    Now I’m sure you are saying to yourself: ‘How dare he accuse me of lacking compassion, when I fight for the millions of human lives lost to abortion’. However, running a campaign does not need compassion and how you run it shows your failing: you have allowed anger to blind you.

    Your rethoric betrays this: You refer to the abortion holocaust, but this only shows you do not understand what the Holocaust was. The Nazis did not kill Jews as a matter of sport: they wanted to exterminate jewery itself, so in the most important respect of all – intention – the comparison between abortion and the Holocaust breaks down and should not be made.

    Another thing which shows me how blind you are is: ‘Feldkamp’s dealings in child murder for profit’.

    The only person who – assuming he is wise enough – can tell what Feldkamp’s motives are is Feldkamp. You and I are not in a position to know and so have no right to comment, leave alone state our speculations as fact. You did this of course to block other peoples’ natural compassion, to make people hate your chosen opponent exactly as the Nazis garnered hatred of Jews. You see, there was a moment when you consciously turned away from compassion. You are responsible.

    What you do not understand is that compassion is a duty, not a privilege you may bestow or withhold. You should treat all people with compassion, because you owe compassion the debt of your mother’s love and the knidness of everybody who ever did you good.

    I do not have time right now to do justice to the other things I want to say, so I will have to let them pass. What I do suggest is that you write a public apology to the Feldkamps and go on to consider how you choose to serve your cause, given your failure of judgement in this instance.

    Yours Sincerely,
    Ian.

  196. #196 Carlie
    March 25, 2009

    I know atheists can never understand what a Christian believes and feels

    Except the ones who used to be devout Christians. Not pretend Christan pew warmers, absolutely devoted zealous Christians. I know it puts terror into your very soul to know those exist, but we are out there.

  197. #197 bobxxxx
    March 25, 2009

    Maybe that was too many people for a small plane. Too much weight. If I’m right the pilot was a dope.

    Once again, I am confirmed in my opinion that Christianity is a breeder of evil, a cesspit in which the most hateful and inhuman commitment to lies and delusions can ferment.

    Are Christians stupid assholes? Yes, but everyone already knew that.

  198. #198 elbuho
    March 25, 2009

    http://twitter.com/pzmyers

    # Now stuck in a tiny town with no way tothe airport. Waiting for my wife to pick me up…but she has to drive slowly, too.7 minutes ago from mobile web

    # Yeah, car is totaled-wheels pointing in diff directions. I’m OK, except for little cuts from a broken glass shower.10 minutes ago from mobile web

    # Disaster. Trying to get to the airport it’s snowing, totaled the car in a crash. Now stranded in Glenwood.43 minutes ago from mobile web

  199. #199 foolfodder
    March 25, 2009
  200. #200 Greg Laden
    March 25, 2009

    PZ is reporting that he was just in a car wreck:

    PZ Myers Car Wrecked in Accident: Myers Suffers Minor Injuries

  201. #201 Amanda
    March 25, 2009

    I’m just curious – and let me just state for the record that I am a pro-choice athiest – how Gingi’s article is different from the post that PZ put up a few days ago about the praying pilot? Can’t it be argued that both PZ and Gingi are capable of being sad over the loss of lives while still experiencing a bit of schadenfreude?

    I don’t know…something just doesn’t sit right with me about this post. I mean, from reading Gingi’s responses to the letters she’s been written, I can tell that she’s immature and irrational – but I just don’t see what’s so different about her response to the plane crash and PZ’s (and the commenters’) response to the praying pilot.

  202. #202 norzoc
    March 25, 2009

    @Ian Too:
    Great email!
    That’s the best way to deal with that.

  203. #203 bobxxxx
    March 25, 2009

    Saxon wrote “I know atheists can never understand what a Christian believes and feels, but please know, when we pray for someone, it is out of love.

    Out of love? Fuck you asshole. You Christian morons like to pray to your invisible friend to thank it for sending non-Christians to your hell.

    What a Christian believes? Mostly that everything is magic and miracles occur every day. You Christians are out of your freaking minds. Go live in the Dark Ages where you belong.

  204. #204 Fez
    March 25, 2009

    @179, her real name might be Suzi. From her domain registration:

    Administrative Contact:
    Edmonds, Suzi dizneewench@yahoo.com
    1400 Fitzgerald Lane
    Hanford, California 93230
    United States
    (559) 772-7911 Fax —

  205. #205 Carlie
    March 25, 2009

    Yikes! Hoping PZ comes out of it ok. Even if physically ok from the wreck, it’s going to make for a miserable day.

    Cuing Xian idiots saying PZ just experienced divine payback for making this post in 4…3…2…

  206. #206 adina
    March 25, 2009

    I wonder if she also demonizes Holocaust victims or African-American slaves, or believes that they “deserved” their fate, due to something they did. Is this how she thinks justice works?

  207. #207 Irene Delse
    March 25, 2009

    Yikes indeed! PZ, if you banged your head, play safe, go to the hospital get a head scan.

  208. #208 caveman73
    March 25, 2009

    I only wish, in this moment, that there was a hell. That so Gingi Edmonds could rot in it. But the reality is she will live on spreading the evil of her religion and saddly corupting the minds of countless others.

  209. #209 Thoughtful Guy
    March 25, 2009

    I totally agree with PZ that what she said was heinous and uncalled for. She should apologize for that.

    I am starting to wonder if you guys ever try to find anything redeemable about the other side or are you always just looking for the bad?

    The world is not black and white. There are good and bad sides to everything. It is more of a shade of gray.

    I once had a Pro-Life Christian girlfriend. She would frequently write pro-life letters to the governor stating her dissatisfaction with his pro-choice views. She also had a sweet and generous side that I truly loved.

    If you look for the bad in people, you will certainly find it. If you look for the good, you might find that too.

  210. #210 Aaron Baker
    March 25, 2009

    Disgusting in any event–but of course she doesn’t understand the Bible she so relentlessly pounds, either. She quotes Ezekiel, who rejected more clearly than any of the other prophets the notions of collective guilt and punishment. I hope she’s overwhelmed with hate mail.

  211. #211 elbuho
    March 25, 2009

    @pzmyers:

    “It was our car. Not an expense we’re prepared for right now, either.”

    I think we should pass round a bucket guys. Where’s PZ’s tip box?

  212. #212 KemaTheAtheist
    March 25, 2009

    Amanda #202 “how Gingi’s article is different from the post that PZ put up a few days ago about the praying pilot? Can’t it be argued that both PZ and Gingi are capable of being sad over the loss of lives while still experiencing a bit of schadenfreude?”

    No. PZ wasn’t expressing joy that the pilot crashed and killed people. He was expressing disgust that people died because the pilot praying instead of conducting emergency procedures caused the crash, when it could have been avoided.

    They’re both pointing out the same thing: religion hurts people more than it help because it makes people do/say stupid things because it stops people from thinking.

  213. #213 Aquaria
    March 25, 2009

    So the woman-hating death cult crowd wants abortions to end.

    Well, they can’t ask for something and offer nothing in exchange. They want abortion to be illegal, they can pay the costs of that. Literally.

    Here’s what I propose:

    First, everyone on the mailing list for Operation Rescue and all the other nutcase women-hating groups gets put in a national database. Every single one of them.

    Then, when a woman gets pregnant, only those people in the database have to pay a special tax to cover her health care costs to have a child, pay a pension to survivors of the women who die or are debilitated in childbirth, and cover the costs of putting those who trade in illegal abortions (doctors and patients, partners/obtainers) through the justice system.

    Whenever a woman is forced to give birth against her will, the anti-abortionist up on the list gets the child, and is expected to raise that child until adult.

    If they truly believe in their cause, they won’t have a problem with any of this.

    Unfair you say? Well, people who drink alcohol or smoke have to pay special taxes for the things they want in life. What makes the woman-hating death cultists above smokers?

  214. #214 Teddydeedodu
    March 25, 2009

    Amanda @202

    “…but I just don’t see what’s so different about her response to the plane crash and PZ’s (and the commenters’) response to the praying pilot.”

    Well, for a start, PZ never attributed the Sicily crash to a Divine cause. :)

  215. #215 Bill Dauphin
    March 25, 2009

    Saxon (@100):

    This was a horrific accident, one that would be akin to a drunk driver who finally realizes he needs to sober up when he kills a large family. Pointing out that the man profits from owning 17 abortion clinics,…

    This comparison makes sense only if you cast Mr. Feldkamp in the role of the drunk driver, and equate his involvement in abortion medicine with the recklessness of driving drunk.

    The problem with that is that Mr. Feldkamp wasn’t flying the plane. If you want to claim that he is personally responsible for the crash, in the way a drunk driver is personally responsible, it can only be through the intercession of a third party. That is, you are implicitly arguing that some entity — presumably the God you believe in — caused that plane to crash in response to Mr. Feldkamp’s behavior. That notion, which has a certain perverse sort of logic to it if you believe in a God who hates “sin” more than he loves children, is what we’re all reacting to here with such horror and outrage.

    The thing is, you won’t own up to what you (and presumably Ms. Edmonds) are actually claiming. You say…

    Warning a person from dangerous behaviors isn’t a bad thing.

    …and…

    No one believes that God caused that accident.

    …but the only possible connection you can draw between Mr. Feldkamp’s behavior and the plane crash is divine intervention. You can’t have it both ways: You can’t characterize Mr. Feldkamp’s behavior as “dangerous” except by asserting that God punished him for it. Either there’s no connection between Feldkamp’s business and the plane crash, or the connection is God’s punishment… and if you assert the latter is the case, you can’t avoid the fact that you’re claiming God killed innocent children in order to punish their father/grandfather.

    If that’s what your theology tells you, own it and be honest about it. But don’t be surprised that some of us find it disgusting, and find in it yet another reason to deny the existence of such a hateful “god.”

    By the way… even if you were correct in asserting a connection between Feldkamp’s business and the crash(and be clear that I don’t admit that possibility), it would still be heartless and disgusting to turn these deaths into some sort of sermon. Feldkamp is surely not the only one who loved these lost innocents. They were people, not visual aids for your theological point of view. Try to grow a heart, won’t you?

  216. #216 SPAM!!!
    March 25, 2009

    All out spam campaign anyone???

  217. #217 Louis
    March 25, 2009

    Crikey! A car smash? Glad to hear you’re mainly ok PZ. I hope you’re suitably insured.

    If/When the hat passes this way, I’ll stick a few bucks in to help yourself and the TrophyWife(TM) get a new car. Which end of the market? Prius or Hummer? ;-)

    I hope it all works out for you, the main thing is that no one has been seriously hurt.

    Louis

  218. #218 Joe
    March 25, 2009

    The plane was a Pilatus?
    And nobody’s drawn some batzo-crazy metaphysical conclusion yet?
    I wash my hands.

  219. #219 Amanda
    March 25, 2009

    Teddydeedodu @# 215

    Sure, and we both know that attributing it to a divine cause is b.s. :)

    Kema @#213 “No. PZ wasn’t expressing joy that the pilot crashed and killed people.

    Okay, but I read Gingi’s article and she didn’t say that she felt joy. Neither did PZ. So, the “joy” you’re seeing in Gingi’s article is based on your interpretation. That doesn’t mean that she felt joy – it means you think she did. Similarly, it doesn’t mean that PZ didn’t experience some schadenfreude.

    Look, I’m as disgusted with the extremist Christian’s attitude as much as the next person (especially Gingi’s!) but I think we athiests are just as succeptible to letting our emotions cloud our judgement.

  220. #221 Aquaria
    March 25, 2009

    gee, Amanda, maybe the difference is that PZ didn’t gloat about a celestial lunatic killing people who had pissed him off.

    Seriously, do you know how to read for comprehension?

  221. #222 Strangebrew
    March 25, 2009

    Try to grow a heart, won’t you?

    That seems to be the problem…those with a supposedly Christian outlook seem to have either no interest or more likely no capability or capacity…of growing a brain…let alone a heart.

    Several posts on this thread demonstrate that lack of simple humanity…maybe to be a jeebus clone that is the price they pay…or the rest of rational humanity has to pay…whatever!

    Their sky daddy must be so proud of them.

  222. #223 Dave Wisker
    March 25, 2009

    Paraphrasing a great retort I saw on the Internet years ago:

    If I believed in Hell, I’d wish Gingi Edmonds there, but I don’t. Instead I’ll just savor the idea that when she dies her toxic personality will simply cease to exist.

  223. #224 alextangent
    March 25, 2009

    Got this as a reply from the foul Gingi;

    LOL, nice cut and paste. If you ever feel compelled to actually read my article in context and personally write me an e-mail instead of parroting the regurgitated BS being fed to you, that’s be great!

    In the meantime, unless you would like to engage in a productive dialogue, you can go take your self-righteous fist-shaking elsewhere darling. ^_^

    Douchebag.

  224. #225 Amanda
    March 25, 2009

    Aquaria @#222

    But we’re condemning someone (Gingi) here for using the deaths of people as an opportunity to say “I told you so,” not for being an idiot. I’m just saying that PZ’s post can be interpreted as doing just that – saying “hey, look at what this guy did – I told you religion is bad.”

  225. #226 Carlie
    March 25, 2009

    I once had a Pro-Life Christian girlfriend. She would frequently write pro-life letters to the governor stating her dissatisfaction with his pro-choice views. She also had a sweet and generous side that I truly loved.

    It is easy to love and be generous to people you agree with. The hard part is being good to people who are acting in a way you personally disapprove of. I would hazard a guess that a 14 year old raped girl who was denied an abortion because your girlfriend’s letters swayed the governor to ban them in the state would see her in a different light.

  226. #227 Slugsie
    March 25, 2009

    So, Gingi Edmonds is hoping that God will ‘soften the hearts of Bud and Pam’ is she? So, would that be God interfering with Bud and Pams free will? If God caused the crash (if he exists, then surely he must have done), so that Bud and Pam might have a change of heart, isn’t that interfering in their free will? Isn’t Free Will supposed to be the inviolate gift of God to mankind? Isn’t killing a bunch of people just to teach a couple of other people a lesson a really crap way of doing things?

    How does that work exactly?

  227. #228 raven
    March 25, 2009

    Ever notice that there are large numbers of hurricanes and tornados in the south central USA, Oklahoma, Louisisana, Texas, and so on? Which cause immense destruction and kill huge numbers of people. This area is of course, the fundie heartland.

    Using Gingi E.’s logic, god must hate fundie xians.

    Polls show that the majority of the US population feels the same way, most of them other xians.

    There is, of course, an alternative explanation that says, “weather happens” believed by a small minority of well over 50% of the population.

    I don’t know why anyone bothered emailing the godzombie. This is a religious fanatic every bit as twisted and hate filled as any moslem suicide bomber or xian witch hunter-burner.

  228. #229 DrBadger
    March 25, 2009

    Slugsie, you’re thinking too much… true believers don’t think.

  229. #230 Natalie
    March 25, 2009

    Amanda,

    I don’t know if I would say that Edmonds is expressing joy, but she certainly seems to be saying “I told you so”, and attributing the deaths of these children to God’s wrath over abortions.

    In reality, though, Feldkamp’s owning a family planning clinic has no direct bearing on the accident, where as the pilot in the previous post was neglecting to do his job because he was praying.

  230. #231 Seth
    March 25, 2009

    I suggest we all write angry emails to this she devil and flame her unmercifully for her idiocy.

    Alternately if any one finds naked pictures of gingi edmonds there are some gentlemen at 4chan that would love to see them.

  231. #232 Louis
    March 25, 2009

    Oh and as for the topic of the OP:

    Ghoulish christian fundamentalist arsehole creeps out of woodwork when something (in this case extremely) unpleasant happens to someone they don’t agree with. Film at 11.

    This is Falwell/Robertson/Phelps/most of the fundamentalists I encounter Standard Playbook 101. The problem is not that this reaction from Edmonds is shocking, it is that it is not shocking ENOUGH.

    PZ’s hyperbole (however right or righteous or otherwise) is being used by some, see Heddle @ 90 for example*, as an excuse to miss (or deprioritise) the opportunity to condemn their “brethren’s” less than fulsomely lovely actions. I’m not saying PZ’s hyperbole is out of place, just that there are a frighteningly large number of people quite willing to hide (dishonestly) behind such hyperbole in order to avoid dealing with the real elephant in the room. Again, the “moderate” protection of “extreme” religion is shocking, but not shocking ENOUGH.

    People across the world, lots and lots of them, billion by uncountable billion should be shocked by this sort of thing. But they aren’t. Just another data point in the banality of evil files I guess.

    Louis

    *Heddle, I singled you out because yours was the clearest post. I know you mentioned the “bad individuals” and as such would probably criticise this Edmonds character viciously. Of course I could use this as an opportunity to ask “Who appointed you God’s spokesman and the rule by which True Christianity(TM) is measured” but we both know it would go no where. So sorry for singling you out but actually, you make my point for me quite well. Sorry.

  232. #233 Strangebrew
    March 25, 2009

    220#

    That doesn’t mean that she felt joy – it means you think she did.

    What about quite satisfaction then?

    And she was boasting about it…

    Kiddies died an horrific death and many many folks are justly traumatised by this tragedy…and she boasts…quite proudly…’that she told you so’! …although apparently she did not want to…but she did anyway…

    Before expressing concern for her well-being…maybe you should express concern for the folk that have to pick up the pieces of shattered lives…I thought that was a decent thing to do…which obviously has nothing to do with the Christian thing to do…as we have seen.

  233. #234 Seth
    March 25, 2009

    I suggest we all write angry emails to this she devil and flame her unmercifully for her idiocy.

    Alternately if any one finds naked pictures of gingi edmonds there are some gentlemen at 4chan that would love to see them.

  234. #235 Irene Delse
    March 25, 2009

    Gingi’s heartless, shameless interpretation of the crash story makes the Christian God look as bad as old pagan Zeus who, in Aesop’s fables, is shown as prone to wreck a whole city with an earthquake because of a few impious citizens, the way an angry man kicks a whole anthill because a single ant bit him.

  235. #236 Mark Stevens
    March 25, 2009

    To Ms. Edwards, I read your article about the Feldkamp tragedy and must say that everything that I have ever believed about your absurd religion has been confirmed. Your article is reprehensible and you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that your gods answer to Mr. Feldkamps activities is to kill more children. Christianity is morally repugnant and your comments prove this. God of love, indeed. God of hate and retribution, of genocide and murder, petty, small, and evil, particularly in light of your asinine, vengeful and foolish remarks. I only hope that someday you will come to your senses and learn to break free from that small confining space you call a brain and view the real world for what it is without fear of punishment or retribution from some mythological overlord. How dare you. How dare you make such statements and then imply that it was your prayers for punishment on him that caused this tragedy. Shame on you. How can you possibly look yourself in the mirror? I have seldom ever read anything as disgusting, as revolting as this article. You have offended many millions of people and I hope that the day comes when you rue the decision to publish publicly such imbecilic tripe. Cretin.

  236. #237 Carpworld
    March 25, 2009

    Stop Press!! PZ in car crash shocker!

    http://twitter.com/pzmyers

    He’s ok, folks!

  237. #238 Amanda
    March 25, 2009

    @Natalie

    Thank you. That helped – there are certainly differences there. Thanks for answering my question without jumping on me like some of the others here have.

  238. #239 PMS
    March 25, 2009

    PZ really is a pompous moron.

  239. #240 pmont
    March 25, 2009

    Saxon:

    Inviting evil into your life by conducting money making deals that pay with the blood of innocent children is just asking for trouble.

    G. Edmonds:

    Hello rude person! Excuse my impertinence in pointing out your hypocrisy, but do you support the holocaust of America’s children?

    John:

    I want you to explain (with your much-loved “rationalism”) why this death is any less tragic than your run-of-the-mill abortion; or why a 6 year old is empirically worth “more” than a baby in the womb.

    Science lesson time. Embryos, blastulas, and yes, pharyngulas, are not humans. They have the potential to become human, but as they exist, they have more in common with architectural blueprints. If you tear up a blueprint, you can always draw another blueprint. It might not be 100% identical to the lost blueprint, but nobody will know the difference once the building is built. The investment contained in the production of the blueprint (embryo) is minuscule bordering on insignificant compared with the investment placed in a fully-fledged building (human being). Anyone who considers the blueprint/embryo and the building/human as having the same value is simply wrong.

    There are many natural factors that can and do contrbute to the premature destruction of embryos. It happens all the time.

    From MedlinePlus: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm

    It is estimated that up to 50% of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among known pregnancies, the rate of miscarriage is approximately 10% and usually occurs between the 7th and 12th weeks of pregnancy.

    These are not human deaths. They are “miscarriages,” or “spontaneous abortions.” A woman who wants to have a baby and who suffers from a miscarriage is grief-stricken because her hopes have been dashed, and she feels a terrible loss akin to the death of a loved-one; such feelings are understandable. A woman who has an elective abortion might also feel bad about it, or she might not. The point is, how a woman feels about an abortion or miscarriage is irrelevant to what an abortion actually is. The destruction of an embryo is a commonplace occurrence in nature and is a trivial event. An abortion or miscarriage might be important to a woman and perhaps to her family, but it makes no difference to unrelated people or to the universe at large, despite unrealistic religious protestations to the contrary.

  240. #241 lizbet
    March 25, 2009

    The piece seems so surreal that all I can focus on is wondering why god would have killed the children in divine retribution instead of the father..

    I simply can’t wrap my mind around it.

  241. #242 Amanda
    March 25, 2009

    Strangebrew @#234 “Before expressing concern for her well-being…maybe you should express concern for the folk that have to pick up the pieces of shattered lives.

    Strangebrew, I do not have any concern for Gingi’s wellbeing. She has come off as an arrogant brat and I don’t have much respect for her.

    I simply had a question that I wanted answered. I am more concerned about the way that we athiests present ourselves than I am about a 23 year-old pro-life kook.

    And please don’t suggest that I have no concern for the victims of this crash. You couldn’t possibly know how I feel about them.

  242. #243 Lee Picton
    March 25, 2009

    I was so angry, I did indeed fire off an email to the sanctimonious moron:
    You are one disgusting ghoul; you are one of the reasons I am not only an atheist, I have become anti-theist. Maggots like you are the scum of the earth, exulting in the tragedy suffered by others and attributing divine retribution from your imaginary sky-fairy. I have dedicated my life and whatever remains of my estate after I am gone to fighting the likes of cretins like you. And yes, I am pro-choice, and I put my money where my mouth is. You are one revolting piece of offal.

  243. #244 Carlie
    March 25, 2009

    The piece seems so surreal that all I can focus on is wondering why god would have killed the children in divine retribution instead of the father..

    That’s easy: to make him suffer more.

  244. #245 AJ Milne
    March 25, 2009

    Ever notice that there are large numbers of hurricanes and tornados in the south central USA, Oklahoma, Louisisana, Texas, and so on? Which cause immense destruction and kill huge numbers of people. This area is of course, the fundie heartland.

    Using Gingi E.’s logic, god must hate fundie xians.

    … there’s also, of course, the ‘too stupid to move’ hypothesis…

    (Yes, just snark. And considering how cold it does get ’round here in the winter, I guess I probably shouldn’t be throwing stones.)

  245. #246 Kemist
    March 25, 2009

    I pray that God will use this unfortunate catastrophe to soften the hearts of Bud and Pam and that they will draw close to the Lord …

    clueless god : “Now that I’ve killed you kids and grand kids, will you worship Me ?”

    me, building an incendiary bomb : “Fat chance motherfucker. See ya in Hell.”

  246. #247 Michelle
    March 25, 2009

    Damn. That sounds bad. At least PZ’s okay.

  247. #248 SimoN
    March 25, 2009

    I am looking for email address of Mr Irving to post my following letter, anybody know his address ?

    ==========================================================
    Dear Mr Irving Feldkamp III,

    i am very sorry to hear a bad news about your family plane accident which killed your daughters and grandchildren. I believe you love them very much.
    I got the news from PZ Myers blog (the supporter of abortion) and found that you have a bloody business which make you a millionaire. No wonder the week-long vacation was planned at The Yellowstone Club, a millionaires-only ski resort.

    Someone already reminded you about your bloody business but you were deaf. Do you remember the story of Pharaoh and Moses ? His beloved son was taken by God, so he suffered and life became miserable.
    You must have the same feeling as Pharaoh, that feeling we call it Hell.
    Your money and whole property are useless now, they can’t buy your beloved life. They are just paper and numbers.

    I resented you did not read the testimony of Bernard Nathanson. In his book, Sick of Death, there is a testimony of Dr Anthony Levatino, he lost his child :

    “Life was good until June 23, 1984. On that date, I was on call, but I was at home at the time. We had some friends over, and our children were playing in the back of the yard.

    At 7:25 that evening, we heard the screech of brakes out in front of the house. We ran outside and Heather was lying in the road. We did everything we could, and she died.

    When you lose a child, your child, life is very different. Everything changes. All of a sudden, the idea of a person’s life becomes very real. It is not an embryology course anymore. It’s not just a couple of hundred dollars. It’s the real thing. It’s your child you buried.”
    http://prolifeaction.org/providers/levatino.htm

    Back again to Pharaoh, he did not repent until he was vanished. He lost everything, even his life after death.

    I hope by this tragedy, you are able to turn back to the Way, the Life and the Truth, so that you can meet your beloved again later in Heaven.
    Use your time before late, we are all sinners who hate the sin.

    Truly yours,
    Simon

    ============================================================

  248. #249 JBlilie
    March 25, 2009

    Why I reject Christianity:

    The existence of a God that is described in the Christian creeds is an extraordinary claim. It would be hard to imagine a more extraordinary one. The data do not support this claim. The God I was raised to believe in was the God of the Christian creeds: created the universe and humans, came to earth to die to atone for our sins, is one entity in three persons (whatever that could possibly mean ? since it violates English meanings), is loving, all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, sends all non-Christians to hell for eternal torment. This God doesn?t fit the data I find in the real world. This is the basic reason for my rejecting it (and all other gods.) (What?s with the long-haired, bearded, blue-eyed, Jewish zombie savior thing anyhow? Remember in the 60s, when the bearded longhairs were evil? The silly conservatives did not see the irony, while praying to their longhair bearded zombie.)

    Love me or burn: The central dogma of Christianity are that you must love Jesus and accept him as God and then you will be ?saved? and spend eternity in Heaven after you die. If you don?t do this, you will be tormented in hell for an eternal (endless, infinite) period of time. (This is a good ?carrot and stick? psychological strategy to reinforce behavior.) These are the simple conclusions that follow from Christian dogma (airy sophistry about mild Jesus bringing love and happiness to your life does not change the basic equation stated.) All non-Christians burn: if you are not a Christian (and many Christian sects extend this to any kind of Christian other than their brand), then you burn in hell forever, EVEN PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER SEEN A BIBLE BURN FOREVER, and there have been many millions (billions probably) of these in the history of the earth. Even insincere Christians burn: those who go through the motions but don?t truly believe. This God is asserted to be kind, loving, and forgiving. This is logically inconsistent.

    Eternal punishment in hell: Forever is a long time. Punishment is understood by humans to be just when it fits the offense committed. ETERNAL punishment even of a very mild sort (and hell is described in Christian doctrine as blood-curdlingly nasty, even without the eternal part thrown in), is, by definition, infinite in scope (anything multiplied by infinity is infinite.) The only offense for which it could be justly imposed is an infinitely bad one. Humans have finite powers and therefore are INCAPABLE OF AN INFINTELY BAD OFFENSE. A person?s lack of knowledge of this special god, Jesus, cannot be justly judged to be an infinitely bad offense. The dogma of hell is simply logically inconsistent with the definition Christians provide of their God: all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, loving, forgiving, kind. Imposing an infinite punishment for any finite offense is unjust and evil. Therefore, it can never be justly imposed on humans, who have finite abilities. The good judge others by their character, not their beliefs, and punish deeds, not thoughts, and punish only to teach, not to torture.

    An atheist (or anyone who has never been exposed to Christian teaching, for example a Taoist or Confucian grandmother in Hunan in 439 AD) who lives an exemplary life, deeply moral, kind, generous, forgiving, public-spirited, devotes themselves and all their possessions to the care of the poor, but who does one lick of work on a Sunday (or was that Saturday?! ? or Friday? I?m so confused! Is this God 1.0, God 2.0, or God 3.0?!?), swears, tells a single lie, has a single thought of lust for his neighbor?s beautiful wife or daughter, steals one tiny bit of food when starving (actually, given the Christian doctrine of ?original sin? no action of this sort is necessary for the conclusion to follow) will be subjected to an INFINITE punishment. However, if a venally evil murderer, rapist, thief, pederast, whore-monger, child torturer reaches the end of his long life of debauchery, and simply decides to love Jesus and say he?s sorry (to whom? the victims of his crimes?) then he gets eternal bliss in paradise. This is not a just or good doctrine.

    Evil: This is simply the classic problem of evil that has bedeviled (if you?ll excuse the metaphor) the theologians of all ages. Their ad hoc magical dodges invariably involve special pleading in the form of: good for my God is not the same as good for humans, or my all-powerful God has limitations on what he can do, or humans have to have free will (why?). This doesn?t fly. If good doesn?t mean good, then the discussion collapses and any explanation is void of meaning. All-powerful and all-knowing provide all the ability any entity could need to do anything: They are making up word meanings somewhere. A person who could save another person from certain, infinite torment but failed to do so because, ?he wanted to give the other person free will,? would never be judged a good person. How much more should such a judgment be applied to a being with (purportedly) infinite power to do good?

    It?s blindingly obvious that these foolish stories cannot be true.

    Do we need any clearer reason to reject Christianity than the Pope?s recent condemnation of condoms in AIDS-ridden Africa or this piece my Ms. Edmonds?

  249. #250 ???
    March 25, 2009

    Do not be arrogant, you WILL get a miserable life one day, next month, next year, until the doctor would say “you get a cancer, your life would end soon” and you remember 25.03.2009, i hope you won’t be late at that time to ask for forgiveness.

    Looks like Simon is once again engaging in projection. Then again, that’s the entire arsenal of his ilk, isn’t it?

  250. #251 Bill Dauphin
    March 25, 2009

    Thoughtful Guy:

    I once had a Pro-Life Christian girlfriend. She would frequently write pro-life letters to the governor stating her dissatisfaction with his pro-choice views. She also had a sweet and generous side that I truly loved.

    I’m sure there are lots of compassionate, well meaning individuals who hold so-called pro-life beliefs (in fact, I know there are). But I’m also pretty sure they’re not the ones claiming using the deaths of innocent (born) children as a politicotheological talking point.

    As a young man, I just assumed that opposition to abortion — and especially Catholic opposition — was, along with opposition to contraception and divorce, really all about opposing the pleasurable exercise of human sexuality outside narrow church-approved parameters. Then I met some Catholics (including my wife and her family) who were manifestly sincere in their concern that abortion was fundamentally wrong, and I began to change my opinion (about abortion opponents, that is; not about abortion itself). Increasingly, though, it’s abundantly clear, however, that while individual pro-lifers might be honest and compassionate, the pro-life movement certainly is not.

    I’ve circled back to my original position that religious opposition to abortion is, along with opposition to contraception and nonmarital sex, all about controlling sexuality: Taking joy in earthly pleasures is inherently a threat to a theology that claims the only true joy lies beyond this life… and a potentially mortal threat to the human institutions that owe their existence to belief in that theology.

    It’s clearly not the case that the majority of anti-abortionists actually believe what they claim: that each abortion is morally equivalent to a murder, and the larger practice of abortion is therefore equivalent to mass slaughter on the scale of the holocaust. If they really believed that, it would be cause for literal revolution. Instead, the few people who take up arms against abortion providers (an utterly reprehensible action, of course, but one that is at least logically consistent with what they believe) are rejected by the “mainstream” pro-life movement as extremists, and the fight to end abortion proceeds in a measured, incremental way that completely belies the life-and-death importance they attribute to their cause (e.g., they rarely even attempt to actually criminalize abortion, and when they do, as in South Dakota, the proposed penalties are vastly lighter than those even for manslaughter, let alone for the premeditated murder of a child).

    It’s all a scam: They say they want to save the unborn babies, and that claim draws in some innocent fellow travelers, but what they really want is to control how you enjoy your naughty bits.

  251. #252 Marcus Ranum
    March 25, 2009

    What kind of sick freak could worship a god like that?

    A natural slave.

  252. #253 Ponder
    March 25, 2009

    SimoN. Die in a fire. Seriously. You are a pathetic excuse for a human being.

  253. #254 AJ Milne
    March 25, 2009

    Y’know, there’s a certain theotroll ’round these parts, if I were to get any of him on my shoe, I wouldn’t deign to scrape it off…

    Nope. I’d just remove the shoe (gingerly, so as not to get any of the foul ichor on my hands) and burn it. Prolly in a real hot incinerator, if I could find one handy, just for safety’s sake.

    Just sayin’.

  254. #255 Marcus Ranum
    March 25, 2009

    Science lesson time. Embryos, blastulas, and yes, pharyngulas, are not humans. They have the potential to become human, but as they exist, they have more in common with architectural blueprints.

    It’s not a binary thing; it’s a continuum.

    There is no one point you can say “it’s not a human yet… (pause) OK now it’s a human!” if only because of Zeno’s paradox. Attempting to make a special line between human and not human is just another silly attempt to make the state of being human special – the same mistake the fundies make.

    Happy monkey!

  255. #256 Invigilator
    March 25, 2009

    Clearly a warning to PZ from YHWH! Stop spreading your atheistic tomfoolery or it will be worse the next time! Bwahahahahah!

    I will not, however, donate to help you buy a Hummer!

  256. #257 MAJeff, OM
    March 25, 2009

    Anyone for some fetus sashimi?

  257. #258 catgirl
    March 25, 2009

    All Christians should be pro-choice. The Bible is pretty specific about this. It says punishment should be an eye for an eye, life for life, etc., and in the same passage it says that if a man hits a pregnant woman and causes her to miscarry, he only has to pay fine (to the woman’s husband). Because he doesn’t have to pay with his life, he clearly did not take a life. Abortion is not murder. The Bible says so. Forced abortion is wrong (not as bad as murder), but the Bible says nothing at all about voluntary abortion. Of course, since when do Christians actually listen to what the Bible says?

  258. #259 sharky
    March 25, 2009

    I called the Christian Newswire and got an actual person. I inquired about the article and was told that all they did was distribute what they were sent.

    I said “I’m surprised an organization dedicated to a religion would post something so damaging to its faith.”

    He said “okay.”

    I thanked him and hung up. It’s the organization’s call if they want to blacken their own religion.

  259. #260 Mike Caton
    March 25, 2009

    Look for the silver lining. Yet another horror story to parade in front of self-described moderate or liberal Christians, one more opportunity to make them wonder if they’re really in the right place. In the same vein I never miss an opportunity to repeat comments from Fred Phelps or Jerry Falwell.

  260. #261 Michelle
    March 25, 2009

    Isn’t Simon the dickface hateful fuck that was banned or I’m thinking of someone else?

  261. #262 Tony Sidaway
    March 25, 2009

    Reminder for those who aren’t scrolling through all the comments.

    Read #201 for why PZ isn’t blogging this morning.

    See also PZ’s twitter stream.

  262. #263 extatyzoma
    March 25, 2009

    many theists are merely despicable people dressed up to appear nice generally but when pressed they will revert to type and show what is essentially little more than ‘i caught the biggest fish but you cant see my fish’ hahahahaha.

    and thats all they have got, they are no different than 3 year olds who know they got stuck in a corner (but thats excusable when you are 3).

    Its sad that i dont engage in conversations with theists because ultimately thats how the conversation will end, some smug, sad fuck saying something like ‘well see whos right, hahahaha’ and thats the irony, they seem to ENJOY your supposed eternal misfortune.

    weird.

  263. #264 Bill Dauphin
    March 25, 2009

    MAJeff (@258):

    Perhaps a nice handroll?

    Great to see your pixels back here, BTW!

  264. #265 Dahan
    March 25, 2009

    Although I’m a former Marine and as such have a rather extensive vocabulary you won’t find in most dictionaries, I can’t come up with a vile enough rant to tell you what I think of this person.

  265. #266 Gaga
    March 25, 2009

    But we’re condemning someone (Gingi) here for using the deaths of people as an opportunity to say “I told you so,” not for being an idiot. I’m just saying that PZ’s post can be interpreted as doing just that – saying “hey, look at what this guy did – I told you religion is bad.”

    English is not my native language, so I might miss the subtleties in the tone of the respective posts, but IMHO:
    PZ pointed out that a person, through his chosen course of actions, has caused the death of innocents and pointed out the liability of said decision.
    Gingi pointed out that a person, through his chosen course of actions, has caused god to go all old testament on innocents and pointed out the liability of that. (With much more gusto, if I might add)
    I’m pretty sure that there are a few problem with the second approach…

  266. #267 Fishman
    March 25, 2009

    These people make me feel sick to the core, they are a disgrace to the human race.

  267. #268 heddle
    March 25, 2009

    Simon #249,

    What an iditotic post. I hope you are a Poe. If not, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

  268. #269 Marcus Ranum
    March 25, 2009

    PZ Myers Car Wrecked in Accident: Myers Suffers Minor Injuries

    Was it an act of god?

  269. #270 Fred Mounts
    March 25, 2009

    Does anyone know if PZ has ever been in a car crash? I had a funny feeling when I woke this morning.

    :oP

  270. #271 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 25, 2009

    Isn’t Simon the dickface hateful fuck that was banned or I’m thinking of someone else?

    Yep, Simon was banned. But like many other idiots with no social learning, he thinks he is welcome where he isn’t. So he morphs his e-mail/IP address to continue to post. We have a few other psychopaths who do the same thing.

  271. #272 Psychodigger
    March 25, 2009

    What a vile, evil hag! She ought to be hauled across whatever town she lives in on a cart naked, while people rip the flesh from her body with red hot tongs before they burn her at the stake… oh no, wait, that’s their stiel, sorry. But she would deserve it just for being the despicable creature that she is (assuming of course, hoping even, that Gingi is a woman’s name).

  272. #273 Ian Too
    March 25, 2009

    Thank you, Norzoc.

    PZ: I’m glad to hear you are OK after your accident. I hope you and your wife get home safely.

    …you know God made this happen because you attacked the loverly Gingy, don’t you? :)

  273. #274 extatyzoma
    March 25, 2009

    of simon.

    its obvious that hes not the product of intelligent design. If he were, god would have given him the apparatus to ejaculate in his own ass as that what he seems to want to do.

    what a particularly toxic specimen.

  274. #275 Sastra
    March 25, 2009

    What bothers me in particular about Ms. Edmonds’ position is that she truly believes that fetal deaths in abortions are definitely comparable to this tragic loss of life in the plane accident. Same sort of thing. If the second one bothers you, then the first one should as well. If the first one doesn’t bother you, then you have no reason to say that the second one does. She apparently thinks that people who are pro-choice are going to be shaken in their conviction that abortion is not murder by seeing the bodies of dead children, so that their eyes will open, and they will realize “hey, this is the same sort of thing as abortion!”

    It reminds me of the Catholics in the Cracker Incident trying to argue that desecrating a consecrated wafer is — to them — the same sort of thing as kidnapping a person, raping a child, committing murder, etc. I want to say “Where is your perspective?? Religion has not made you more ‘sensitive’ when it comes to morality and empathy. Instead, it has allowed you to blur boundaries and warp a more rational and compassionate understanding of the situation.”

    Imagine a pro-lifer having their family killed in an accident, and an animal rights activist writes “well, perhaps memories of that murdered-cow hamburger she ate last night is haunting her now.” Equivalence? To this? I suspect the pro-lifers would feel a bit the way we’re feeling.

    (PS Hope PZ gets home ok, and so sorry about the accident.)

  275. #276 Endor
    March 25, 2009

    #249 – looks like Simon is a death-loving ghoul as well.

    That you sent a letter to a man whose just lost a large portion of his family speaks volumes about you. And, provides clear proof that your religion is all about mocking and hate.

    Get to a psychiatrist. You need help.

  276. #277 Francine Dubois
    March 25, 2009

    PZ, I only hope and pray that in the face of your accident, you will recognize the need for repentance and reformation. I pray that God will use this unfortunate catastrophe to soften your heart and that you will draw close to the Lord and wash your hands of the gravy of thousands of innocent biscuits.
    ________

    BUT SRSLY PZ, hope you are okay and make it home safely…

  277. #278 catgirl
    March 25, 2009

    I’m not an atheist, but hateful people like Simon push me further in that direction. Of course, a few hateful atheists in this thread also prevent me from going the whole way.

  278. #279 Leigh Williams
    March 25, 2009

    Saxon, of course we read your daughter’s article. It was repulsive. And if you are the sociopath responsible for warping a 23-three-year-old woman’s personality so that she could write such a hate-filled piece of drivel, then all I can say to you is:

    You should be deeply ashamed of yourself.

    Are you reading this thread? Do you see what kind of witness you are for Christ? People are quite justifiably reviling you, and because your daughter’s post was written by a Christian, they’re also reviling the name of Christ.

    With “friends” like you, Jesus doesn’t need enemies. Has it EVER occurred to you that you’ve completely missed the point of His life? Does no one ever preach to you about grace?

  279. #280 KI
    March 25, 2009

    We really need to start a movement to help these people meet their maker, so to speak. If you truly believe in the afterlife, why don’t you go there. We could have “Jump for Jesus” day at the local bridge, or a “Heaven or Bust” kool-aid party. Population reduction and stupidity clearing at the same time. R. Crumb even did a poster for us on the back of Zap #4 (I think, it may have been #5).

    Is this going too far?

  280. #281 Kemist
    March 25, 2009

    Why is it that pro-life scum always thinks that abortion providers make tons of money ? Like idiots who say that scientists make lots of money ?

    Poor clueless sheep. They’re being fleeced everyday by their pompous pastors, the real millionaires, who once in a while get caught doing naughty naughty things. And it doen’t even make them think when it happens.

    I’m starting to agree with the statement than it’s quite okay to separate such idiots from their money.

    And Simon, if you really think that somebody losing everything you’ve got to a (non-existent) enemy makes somebody love said enemy, you’re even more an idiot than you’ve seemed so far. If something like that happened to me and I happened to believe in your bloodthirsty god’s existence, I would make it the only goal in my remaining life to hurt it and its worshippers in any way I can.

    Fortunately, I don’t believe in your sky fairy, so it would really be a pointless (and horrible) thing to do. Thank your hateful god I’m an atheist.

  281. #282 Bernard Bumner
    March 25, 2009

    Simon; spreading the love, one foetid, stinking, dripping, lump at a time. And by love I mean, morally bankrupt bullshit.

    Simon, like Gingi, has no real compassion, love, or generosity of spirit. They’ve pissed all of their humanity away in a feeble contest to become the favourite of some fictional bogeyman.

  282. #283 Dutchdoc
    March 25, 2009

    Overview of PZ’s latest Tweets on his carsh:

    Wed 25 Mar 08:40 via mobile web:
    Disaster. Trying to get to the airport it’s snowing, totaled the car in a crash. Now stranded in Glenwood.

    Wed 25 Mar 09:14 via mobile web:
    Yeah, car is totaled-wheels pointing in diff directions. I’m OK, except for little cuts from a broken glass shower.

    Wed 25 Mar 09:16 via mobile web:
    Now stuck in a tiny town with no way tothe airport. Waiting for my wife to pick me up…but she has to drive slowly, too

    Wed 25 Mar 09:41 via mobile web:
    It was our car. Not an expense we’re prepared for right now, either

    Wed 25 Mar 09:43 via mobile web:
    Man, there’s not a lot to do in Glenwood in the am. Sitting in a diner, NO WIRELESS. Argh.

  283. #284 extatyzoma
    March 25, 2009

    cant win with those believers.

    A known atheist could die a wretched death by being nibbled by ants to the bone or could quickly have a heart attack whilst bedding 10 of the most beautiful people in the world (at once) and they would still cry goddidit.

    the religious speciality: ‘assertions without evidence’

  284. #285 norzoc
    March 25, 2009

    SimoN:
    Your mail is just disgusting.
    How dare you to make a connection between this terrible accident and Mr. Feldcamps personal views on abortion. There is NO RELATION AT ALL!
    Why the hell do christians think this disaster supports their view on abortion anyway.
    If your christian based morallity doesn’t stop you from writing this kind of letters it doesn’t serve you well.

  285. #286 David Marjanovi?, OM
    March 25, 2009

    Do you remember the story of Pharaoh and Moses ? His beloved son was taken by God, so he suffered and life became miserable.

    Strange god who kills people just simply to teach other people a lesson. Less moral than Kant?

    Be glad, Simon the Banned, the one with his nose on the glass, that the whole story is fiction. The nameless pharaoh, the slave people in Egypt, the plagues, the exodus ? all made up, like the destruction of Alderaan.

  286. #287 Pascalle
    March 25, 2009

    Catgirl,

    I think what you need to keep in mind, is that the hatefull comments of the atheists are not from not believing in god.

    It’s because in their view of morality they think it’s wrong when someone says “I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment, but… ”

    That’s not an evil hatefull thought.
    They’re not angry as the writer because she believes in god, they’re angry at her because she has no compassion or respect for her fellow human beings.

  287. #288 Dutchdoc
    March 25, 2009

    carsh = crash.

    You can all login and follow PZ’s crash ordeal here:

    http://twitter.com/pzmyers

  288. #289 Bob
    March 25, 2009

    We found out yetserday that my sister’s boyfriend’s daughter was good friends with Kristen Ching, who was also on the plane and died along with her husband and 2 children. My sister’s boyfriend’s daughter, also named Kristen, worked out regularly with Kristen Ching and what was not reported in the news reports is the fact that Kristen Ching was pregnant. I wonder what the “pro-life” people would have to say about that fact.

  289. #290 Leigh Williams
    March 25, 2009

    And Saxon, you wrote: “I know atheists can never understand what a Christian believes and feels, but please know, when we pray for someone, it is out of love.”

    I am a devout Christian, and I call you a blasphemer and a heretic.

    NO decent human being could spew the kind of poison you people do. Spewing it while calling yourself by the Lord’s name and claiming His imprimature on your revenge fantasy is BLASPHEMY.

  290. #291 Janine, Insulting Sinner
    March 25, 2009

    Seth, what you are suggesting is a bad and childish idea. You are just playing into her well developed sense of christian martyrdom.

    siMon, you know that none of the regulars would bother to help you out. So the only reason you posted your soon to be deleted screed is to show off yourself.

    Congratulations! You have the personality of a burning bag of dogshit.

  291. #292 Dutchdoc
    March 25, 2009

    PZ Tweet:

    Wed 25 Mar 11:03 via mobile web:
    Now back on the road again with a hot female chauffeur. Might just make it to Michigan after all.

  292. #293 Endor
    March 25, 2009

    “I’m not an atheist, but hateful people like Simon push me further in that direction. Of course, a few hateful atheists in this thread also prevent me from going the whole way.”

    Well, not to sound hateful, but if you are so easily swayed by random internet strangers, atheism doesn’t want you.

  293. #294 elbuho
    March 25, 2009

    From PZ on Twitter:

    “Now back on the road again with a hot female chauffeur. Might just make it to Michigan after all.”

  294. #295 Josh
    March 25, 2009

    Of course, a few hateful atheists in this thread also prevent me from going the whole way.

    Wait–huh? The fact that a particular group contains assholes influences your view of the reality of what they stand for? If they’re are more Christian assholes out there, then it’s somehow less likely that the Christian god exists? If they’re are more atheist assholes out there, then it’s somehow more likely that the Christian god exists? I’m not following your train of thought. Could you please restate?

  295. #296 elbuho
    March 25, 2009

    Haha you beat me to it DutchDoc.

    elbuho (in Holland)

  296. #297 Bob L
    March 25, 2009

    Vampires feeding off the pain of others. And they wonder why we chose to be atheists? How about even _if_ there is a God I would rather risk burning in hell then having my name associated with the group of monsters that Gingi Edmonds so represents.

  297. #298 Dutchdoc
    March 25, 2009

    #294: “atheism doesn’t want you.

    Don’t be rediculous!

    Atheism is neither a person nor an organization with members.

    Atheism is simply the absence of a belief in (any) God.

    If you realize that there is no God based on random internet chattering, so much the better.

  298. #299 Dutchdoc
    March 25, 2009

    Re #299: “ridiculous” even

  299. #300 Bill Dauphin
    March 25, 2009

    Now back on the road again with a hot female chauffeur. Might just make it to Michigan after all.

    This tweet might have been a tactical error on PZ’s part: Here I was all brimming with sympathy, and ready to hit the new-car-tip-jar… but “road trip with a hot babe” doesn’t sound quite so sympathy-provoking! ;^)

  300. #301 David Marjanovi?, OM
    March 25, 2009

    Pete Rooke, currently number 115:

    When you give voice to these sentiments the obscene is animated and it infects us all in some small way. Likewise with the publication of various screeds authored by Fred Phelps and his clan. This cannot simply be boxed up now, it is forever among us. We are the media and we must all act as respnsible filters.

    Indeed: Never forget.

    We must drag it all out into the open, lest it happen ever again because people don’t know it (anymore).

  301. #302 10channel
    March 25, 2009

    @Endor #190
    “How often have the phrases ‘I’m not a racist, but’ or ‘I’m not a sexist, but’ been followed up with that which proves the speaker to be exactly those things.”
    It is because of the “but.” The “but” means that they will state a statement that is contrary to their previous one.

    @bobxx #198
    “Are Christians stupid assholes? Yes, but everyone already knew that.”
    No, not everybody already knows that. There are still plenty of people who think that religion is a social casual thing. They ought to be woken up to the true nature of religion soon.

    @
    “how Gingi’s article is different from the post that PZ put up a few days ago about the praying pilot? Can’t it be argued that both PZ and Gingi are capable of being sad over the loss of lives while still experiencing a bit of schadenfreude?”
    If you read PZ’s blog post a while back at all, you would know that it is not schadenfreude. The pilot was being negligent of his duties as a result of his religion or panic, and it was a great misfortune that his religion or panic misguided him to his disaster, killing many people.

    “Okay, but I read Gingi’s article and she didn’t say that she fel joy”
    But she did feel that it was a good thing, somehow a “divine punishment,” an “I told you so.” Whereas the pilot, through being negligent of his duties, killed innocent lives.

  302. #303 bsk
    March 25, 2009

    I’ll repeat what others have said. PZ: go get your head checked out if it was hit, however minor the impact. You probably know this already, but nobody can be too careful :)

  303. #304 Amanda
    March 25, 2009

    Gaga @#267 I’m pretty sure that there are a few problem with the second approach…

    Of course there are…Gingi’s approach is absurd and makes no sense. But that doesn’t mean that there wasn’t gloating going on in both cases (Gingi’s and PZ’s). I’m not validating Gingi’s perspective, I’m just voicing some concern over the potential hypocrisy of this post.

    I’m not even sure it’s hypocritical – which is why I asked for someone to explain how it might not be. So far, most people have said that PZ’s and Gingi’s reactions to the respective plane crash stories are different because they’re wrong and we’re right. That doesn’t seem logical to me.

  304. #305 Sorceror
    March 25, 2009

    Cuttlefish #194, thank you for this beautiful poem that captures the essence of the outrage felt by the majority of posters on this thread.

    To Miss Edmonds, I would like to say (but won’t, because I don’t have time to deal with her callous hide), for the good of your soul, think about what you’ve said. You have made this an “I told you so” moment by saying “I don’t want to make this an ‘I told you so’ moment, but …”. Put yourself in the shoes of the remaining Feldkamps, who have to deal with the loss of so many members of their family. Would you really want someone to say to you, “I don’t want to say I told you so, but God did this to you because you deserved it, and you should have listened to my warnings”?

    I don’t want to say she’s an evil, heartless bitch, but … ;)

  305. #306 Felix
    March 25, 2009

    Congratulations! You have the personality of a burning bag of dogshit.

    ^ This.

  306. #307 Fact Finder
    March 25, 2009

    If anyone would like to contact this heartless excuse for a human, her email address is gingi@gingiedmonds.com

  307. #308 Dennis
    March 25, 2009

    Wow- this is one of the most disgusting people I’ve ever read an article from. And one of the most disgusting people I’ve found on the internet- which is quite a feat.

    I thought about writing this “writer”- but anything I’d write would be a waste of time because it’d be met with either ignorance/arrogance- or a smug “I got to them.” And somehow I’m sure this woman feels she’s be persecuted in her beliefs because others won’t conform to hers.

  308. #309 Discombobulated
    March 25, 2009

    Saxon the Blood-Queen@100 proclaimed:

    Trust me, Gingi is not revelling in anything. She is sickened by this. She’d seen these people, face to face, she’d prayed for them. They were strangers, but not. She spoke to one of Dr. Feldkamp’s friends, and was able to express her heartfelt condolences. He was of course very distraught, but even he was unaware of his friend’s business dealings.

    Did anyone happen to notice this sentence, from the second-to-last paragraph in Saxon’s (apparently Gingi’s mum’s) post?

    What I read from that is: Gingi the Demonspawn apparently went to a friend of this guy’s family, and offered her “heartfelt condolences”, which seems to have consisted of her telling them that the guy was a baby-killer.

    What a sanctimonious bitch. “You can’t have morality without Jesus” my ass.

  309. #310 Dahan
    March 25, 2009

    God must have saved PZ for some mighty purpose, like disproving god’s existance. Wait, there’s a flaw in this argument somewhere…

  310. #311 Mike
    March 25, 2009

    Oh no one christian said something mean about an abortionist (who in their eyes is literally a murderer), that must mean all of them are nazis that revel in the taste of baby flesh and live off the fear of their enemies.

    What’s wrong with you people?

  311. #312 Ploon
    March 25, 2009

    Simon,

    I wouldn’t even urinate on you if you were aflame. Please do the human race a favour and go hide somewhere where no one, not even you, can find you.

  312. #313 wildcardjack
    March 25, 2009

    Oh, come on. 300+ comments and no mention of the hundreds of bodies recovered from the crash?

  313. #314 Gaga
    March 25, 2009

    @305
    Amanda,
    I can see that and I’m sure there is a bit of truth in what you say.
    For me (let’s see if I can be clearer this time) the difference is that you can draw a comparison between the two posts only if you buy into a specific concept of god, which allows for one’s behaviour to have consequences via divine wrath.
    Barring that, to me the post of PZ is about the liability of certain behaviours and the one of Gingi is taking an unrelated tragic event as an excuse to make a point. I’m aware that some presuppositions push my reactions in one direction, of course :\

  314. #315 Sven DiMilo
    March 25, 2009

    one christian said something mean about an abortionist

    Oh for fucks sake. “Said something mean about an abortionist”? Seriously? I’d ask what’s wrong with you, but I already have a pretty good idea.

  315. #316 Audrey
    March 25, 2009

    As a writer, I know the power that words can wield.

    In situations like this, I am always aware of the stark limitations of language. The words to comfort, to make this better, to console this family in their terrible, terrible grief do not exist or we’d offer them in a heartbeat.

    Clearly however, the words to torture and hate *do* exist. And that too is a sad failure of language. This Gingi Edmonds epitomizes all of the attributes that Christians have, historically, attributed to the Devil. Makes me wish there was a Hell she could burn in.

  316. #317 Arno
    March 25, 2009

    What a terrible bitch, and with what ridiculous logic. So god killed these children and now hopefully this will make their grandfather “repent” and accept her deity is his savior? Following that logic, Gingi would be utterly fine with someone murdering her parents brutally out of a desire to make her think of him as a friend.
    And Simon. You are the most repulsive piece of fucking slime I have ever, ever seen. Breaking your arms and legs and having a baseball bat forced up your rectum would still be a friendly act for a low-life scum such as you.

  317. #318 Dennis
    March 25, 2009

    #314 Oh, come on. 300+ comments and no mention of the hundreds of bodies recovered from the crash?

    What are you even talking about- make a complete sentence/thought- and actually read the article- there aren’t “hundreds of bodies.”

  318. #319 Sven DiMilo
    March 25, 2009

    Time for PZ to designate a couple of moderators to take out the trash when he’s indisposed. Banned should mean banned.

  319. #320 Tulse
    March 25, 2009

    C’mon, SimoN’s really a Poe, right? I mean, no one could be that clueless, right?

  320. #321 Leigh Williams
    March 25, 2009

    CUTTLEFISH REPRISE . . . because it’s so good it needs to be repeated:

    There is no tragic loss of life so great
    That someone, somewhere, who has a book to sell
    Or vile view to promote, cannot create
    A circus, a spectacle, a forum for their hate,
    A soapbox platform, from which they can tell
    The world–these sinful victims are in Hell.
    This crash–with seven kids among the dead;
    Whole families lost–is cause for countless tears,
    A time to comfort victims’ families. Instead,
    The horrid claim the families’ actions led
    To this. Their sinful lifestyle, it appears,
    Angered God. Now Gingi Edmonds cheers
    “Stack the coffins; I’ll use them for my stage!”
    And all my sadness turns itself to rage.

    digitalcuttlefish.blogspot.com

    THANK YOU, CUTTLEFISH. It’s everything we all tried to say, but far more haunting.

  321. #322 Category 7
    March 25, 2009

    SimoN, you should probably kill yourself for the good of the gene pool. Oh, sorry, is that evil Atheistic Darwinist Eugenics? No, don’t kill yourself; just don’t have kids that you can indoctrinate with your disingenuous, caustic piffle.

    Thanks!

    P.S. Supporting freedom of choice does not necessitate supporting promiscuous sex and/or lax use of contraception. You forget that most ‘pro-choicers’ desire to minimise abortion. Instead of painting us all as Evil Baby Killers, you may want to be a little more pragmatic so that we can all stop arguing for a while and work on the real issues at the problem’s roots. I won’t hold my breath!

  322. #323 ed
    March 25, 2009

    The religious are the most evil segment of our society.

  323. #324 Monado
    March 25, 2009

    For one thing, PZ said that praying was useless and showed pilot incompetence: that’s a practical result. He did not say that it was God’s plan or just retribution. He felt sorry for the victims and did not think God had killed them. He thought irrationality had killed them.

    Ahem. “God has terrible aim… Feldkamp himself is still alive.” But now that this horrible accident has happened, we can apply “Christian” logic, and remark that the insurance money will probably enable the survivors to invest in several more of Dr. Feldkamp’s clinics, if they so desire. And Dr. Feldkamp, having experienced more suffering at having his life afflicted by an unexpected event, might be more motivated to relieve the suffering of others by making abortion available to more who need it, in more towns.

  324. #325 bootsy
    March 25, 2009

    Here we have a perfect example of why believing in a god should be morally abhorrent, even without considering the horrible evil the believers commit.

    If there is a benevolent god, why does he kill children?

    If there is a spiteful, religious prick god, why does he kill the religious?

    How could any reward in heaven be worth the decades of pain that either disease, starvation, or war bring? Obviously it couldn’t.

    Anyone who believes that there is a god, and that they have an okay life because of that god, and are perfectly happy with the suffering of others because of their own imagined blessed state… is as horrible as Gingi Edmonds, even if they don’t go to the extra step of shouting their cruelty and selfishness from the highest roofs.

  325. #326 Carlie
    March 25, 2009

    Simon, every time you masturbate online like that you’re killing tens of thousands of half-babies, which of course equates to fives of thousands of full babies. Stop the carnage!

  326. #327 Chris
    March 25, 2009

    Horrible.

    Apparently God’s idea of revenge for “killing babies” is to kill more babies. This woman is sick.

  327. #328 Alyson Miers
    March 25, 2009

    Guys, I suggest no more emails to Ms. Edmonds. She’s obviously enjoying the attention, and I don’t want to see any more of her responses of, “Well, you’re PRO-CHOICE, so nyah nyah!”

    Pro-life: All human life is sacred. Just as long as it hasn’t been born yet.

    Oh, and SimoN? Go fuck yourself with a pineapple. I’m sure you’ll enjoy it.

  328. #329 Mike
    March 25, 2009

    I love the logic of the author and most of the people commenting here. Because one person in X religion is evil, everyone who follows said religion is evil.

    Fantastic Nazi-esque logic. Let me see if I have it down here – The author is a crybaby who stereotypes entire groups of people based on the words of an individual. The author is an atheist. Thus, atheists are crybabies who stereotype entire groups of people based on the words of an individual.

  329. #330 Eidolon
    March 25, 2009

    Janine:

    re: simon – I liked the but did you consider ? I kind of like the alliteration.

    Mike @ 312:

    I think you will find that most posts are focused on Christianity, not xians. Xian thought is the issue. The author did not say something “mean”, she implied that this accident was divine retribution. This is patently a Crock O’ Crap. The emotional response to this is far, far different than the responses to the usual creotard stuff that appears here every day. It is not often a thread grows this quickly.

  330. #331 Marcus Ranum
    March 25, 2009

    SimoN writes:
    a draft letter to Mr Irving :

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Dear Irving,

    I am sorry to hear about your family and hope you will be back to the business again as soon as possible. Just forget the your daughters and grandchildren since they are only evoluted apes, you can buy some in the orphanage with you money.

    We need your service because your flying time is high, thousands embryo already disposed by your nice perfumed hand without mistake. We are willing to pay you higher than other doctors.

    Is that your idea of humor? If so, it’s repellent. If not, then you’re truly gargling with the stuff from the bottom of the bowl.

    Arno writes:
    Breaking your arms and legs and having a baseball bat forced up your rectum would still be a friendly act for a low-life scum such as you.

    …are you on your way to becoming a convert to SimoN’s religion of love?

  331. #332 raven
    March 25, 2009

    The Voters are also blaming the Death Cult fundies for destroying the USA and its economy.

    50% – More Conservatives Now Say Churches Should Stay Out of Politics Wed Sep 24, 12:00 AM ET
    Half of self-described conservatives now express the view that churches and other houses of worship should stay out of politics; four years ago, only 30% of conservatives expressed this view. Overall, a new national survey by the Pew Research Center finds a narrow majority of the public (52%) now says that churches and other houses of worship should keep out of political matters and not express their views on day-to-day social and political matters. For a decade, majorities of Americans had voiced support for religious institutions speaking out on such issues. The survey also finds that most of the reconsideration of the desirability of religious involvement in politics has occurred among conservatives. As a result, conservatives’ views on this issue are much more in line with the views of moderates and liberals than was previously the case. Similarly, the sharp divisions between Republicans and Democrats that previously existed on this issue have disappeared. There are other signs in the new poll about a potential change in the climate of opinion about mixing religion and politics. First, the survey finds a small but significant increase since 2004 in the percentage of respondents saying that they are uncomfortable when they hear politicians talk about how religious they are — from 40% to 46%. Again, the increase in negative sentiment about religion and politics is much more apparent among Republicans than among Democrats.

    Looks like there is a backlash against the Death Cults. These are nihilists who have only brought death and destruction during their time in power. Their latest victim is the US economy, the largest in the world at one time. Palin is one, a hardcore religious kook.

    Humanoid toads like Gingi, Palin, Simon, Dobson, Haggard, etc.. have produced for more atheists and anti-xians in 1 day than Dawkins or PZ could in their lifetimes. Polls show that the majority of the US population, mostly other xians are sick and tired of them. Them’s the data, cut and pasted above.

    “By their fruits, ye shall know them” and “As you sow, so shall you reap.” I used to say that the Gingi’s of the world would do some serious damage to the religion. Don’t bother much anymore, it is now obvious that they have and will.

  332. #333 CunningLingus
    March 25, 2009

    I actually felt moved to send a diatribe to the xtian SCUMSUCKERS who reported the story that way … morons to the nth degree with no sense of human decency, yet they are alleged xtians .. full of love and morals .. RETARDS one and all. My sympathies go out to the families of all who perished .. and my disgust at the xtian media AGAIN !

  333. #334 Bill Dauphin
    March 25, 2009

    Mike:

    Oh no one christian said something mean about an abortionist

    It’s not about saying something mean Feldkamp: I think a majority of regulars here would endorse, if not applaud, the notion that it’s OK to say mean stuff to people with whom you have fundamental disagreements. The “marketplace of ideas” is sometimes a rough-and-tumble arena, and I think most of us are pretty much down with that.

    Using the tragic deaths of innocent children, wholly uninvolved in your philosophical combat, as a weapon against the people who loved them, though, is another matter. Even the most brutal combat has rules, and the indiscriminant slaughter (whether physical or emotional) of innocent noncombatants is always out of bounds.

    (who in their eyes is literally a murderer)

    Well, that’s what they say. As I’ve commented in several places, they usually don’t act like they really believe it. If you knew someone who was engaged in a vast commercial enterprise dedicated to the ongoing premeditated murder of children (i.e., this is what Ms. Edmonds and her ilk claim to believe about Mr. Feldkamp), would you be satisfied to simply cluck your tongue and warn him that if he didn’t stop, God might eventually get peeved with him?

    As I said in a previous post, I’m sure many individuals in the “pro-life” movement are sincere (albeit logically inconsistent), but the evidence suggests that the movement’s leaders don’t really believe what they preach, but preach it anyway for their own self-promoting reasons.

  334. #335 Stu
    March 25, 2009

    Fantastic Nazi-esque logic.

    Godwinned in the second sentence. Thank you for playing.

  335. #336 Ric
    March 25, 2009

    I just sent the author the following email:

    “Dear Ms. Edmonds,

    I recently read the above article, and the Book of Job came to mind. Perhaps you are not familiar with the Book of Job, or maybe you have forgotten it. Do you remember when, using facile and shallow logic, Job’s Comforters tried to ascribe Job’s suffering to some sin or unrighteousness? Do you remember God’s response to Job’s Comforters?

    42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

    42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

    Guess how you relate to the lesson of the Book of Job. Do you prefer to be called Eliphaz, Bildad, or Zophar?

    Sincerely,
    Ric Baker”

  336. #337 thalarctos
    March 25, 2009

    That woman and her defenders are ghouls, pure and simple.

    PZ, I’m glad you weren’t seriously hurt in the crash, and I repeat the very good advice given above–if you hit your head, or if the emergency responders think you should for any reason, go to the hospital to get checked out!

    And if there’s a tip jar, count me in.

  337. #338 catgirl
    March 25, 2009

    Mike, I’m glad someone agrees with me. There are plenty of terrible, evil religious people in the world, but there are also a few good people who are also religious. If being an atheist requires that I hate all religious people or assume that I am inherently more moral or smarter than them, it’s understandable that I don’t want to give myself that label regardless of my actual beliefs.

    Obviously Edmonds is a horrible, insensitive, immoral person. But I don’t have to hate every single Christian to realize that she’s evil. Guess what? Pro-choice Christians actually exist. I can disagree with someone about their beliefs without hating them or assuming they’re stupid. If we look at this person and say, “See, all Christians are bad”, that isn’t any better than a religious fundie looking at a bad atheist person and saying, “See, all atheist are bad”. Just because they do it doesn’t mean we should. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

    Also, shouldn’t we be a little above making fun of someone’s first name? Gingi probably didn’t get to choose her own name, and if she did, first names mean very little about someone’s morality or intelligence. This crazy lady is evil enough no matter what her name is.

    I know that most atheists are not this petty and hateful, but a few of the posters here are, and I don’t want to be associated with it.

  338. #339 Leigh Williams
    March 25, 2009

    Mike, don’t waste your time trying to shoot the messenger.

    PZ isn’t the problem. Our co-religionists who blaspheme by attributing their own twisted revenge fantasies to God are the problem.

    Save your ammo for shooting down these sick fucks. They get airtime and blog hits while we sit idly by and watch them foul the Body with their hate-mongering.

  339. #340 Bryn
    March 25, 2009

    @ Simon

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. When they’re burying me following my untimely death at the age of 103, it’ll be because god’s finally tracked me down and is punishing me for my (at that point) 91 years of atheism and previous 12 years of agnosticism, right?

    A hint for you, Simon: people who look for portents, omens and signs generally find them even though they don’t exist.

  340. #341 bootsy
    March 25, 2009

    @Mike 331: See my post @327.

    I wouldn’t say all people who follow religion are evil.

    However, even the good ones fail to realize the evil behind the idea of religion: Some are blessed and some are cursed, either here or in some imaginary next life, with the corollary that we should be perfectly happy with that.

    This, conveniently, allows either religious ‘authorities’ like the Pope, or freelance hitlers like Gingi Edmonds to justify any amount of suffering they impose on their fellow humans: racism, misogyny, ruining the teaching of science, etc. ad infinitum.

    Thank god that god is benevolent and created us to suffer! And gave us such wisdom that allows us to point randomly to another’s suffering and see the divine will!

  341. #342 Marcus Ranum
    March 25, 2009

    Because one person in X religion is evil, everyone who follows said religion is evil.

    No Mike, we’re not saying that. The argument goes the other direction: lots of people believe in this religious foolishness and it makes some of them do very very foolish (even malicious) things. We recognize that not all the religious fools are malicious. But they’re still fools.

    So we’re not reasoning “one bad apple ruins the bushel” it’s more a case of pointing and nodding “yup. another one.”

  342. #343 Hank Fox
    March 25, 2009

    The claim has been made elsewhere that there is no “Tomb of the Unborn” at the Holy Cross Cemetery in Butte, Montana. I’m attempting to check it out, but so far all I know is that Google shows no hits connecting “Tomb of the Unborn” and Butte, MT.

    I have a call in to Cathy at Holy Cross Cemetery, Resurrection Cemetery & Association, 4700 Harrison Ave, Butte, MT 59701-7001, (406) 442-1782, but only got an answering machine so far.

    There may well be a Tomb of the Unborn at this cemetery, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if one or more of these people had lied about it. If so, that would make it especially nasty, and all Christian rationale for writing about it would go right out the window.

  343. #344 Discombobulated
    March 25, 2009

    raven@334:

    Humanoid toads like Gingi, Palin, Simon, Dobson, Haggard, etc.. have produced for more atheists and anti-xians in 1 day than Dawkins or PZ could in their lifetimes.

    Don’t forget Pope Ratzi! He’s single-handedly working toward the downfall of the Catholic church.

    I’m always almost tempted to cheer him on in his efforts, until I remember the real misery and disease he spreads with every proclamation.

  344. #345 sharky
    March 25, 2009

    The thing is, Mike, this is -not- one wingnut on the internet wilderness. (I should know, I grew up in a cultlike little place that followed this way of thinking, only less sane.)

    This is what happens when Christians not only don’t like themselves, but are told it’s a -virtue- to hate themselves except for that small part they can call “Christlike” and associate with God. They take Paul’s words about trying to kill their inner natural man to heart. Psychological brokenness becomes a good thing, a blessed event, because they think the only way people can be brought in line is with the divine stick. Since suffering has a purpose, obviously the survival of the man is a sign that this is his lesson.

    And thanks to the story of Job, where his entire family was killed to teach him a lesson but it was okay because a loving god gave him a whole new family, the view in some circles is that people are disposable pawns god is free to smite to harm that one person into turning to him. It really isn’t significant that individual, special sons and daughters died–it’s only significant that sons and daughters in general did. Because that’s how the Bible works, and Christians in the mindset don’t want to see it any other way.

    What they don’t get is that this is not just unhealthy and frightening, but it also sends up red flags to everyone when they say “our congregation is made of people who were humbled by tragedy and, broken, turned to god,” because it means the congregation is traumatized and healing through self-hatred.

    Given the author’s other writings… I don’t think I’m off the mark in thinking that she also thinks suffering is a desired state.

  345. #346 BlueIndependent
    March 25, 2009

    I’m late to the pile-on, but what the heck. It’s a perfect opportunity to bash the exquisitely bashable. I’m not going to read all 300+ posts, but surely someone has pointed out that if this was a case of a Christian family losing so many lives, Mizz Edmonds would doubtless be falling all over herself with feigned grief.

    “I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment…but I just can’t help myself!”

  346. #347 Faid
    March 25, 2009

    Did anyone notice the peculiar and very careful phrasing in that article?

    “I pray that God will use this unfortunate catastrophe to soften the hearts of Bud and Pam”

    So… The disaster itself was merely “unfortunate” (random chance and all, you know), and the Almighty Narcissist In The Sky will simply use it, to make the sinners repent! Yeah, it’s ‘Fortune’, not the Omnipotent Old Geezer, who’s responsible for all the bad things in the world- He just “uses” them to his benefit.

    Inconsistent? Irrational? Pathetic? That it is, but Gingi knows it’s still better than saying what she apparently *really* thinks: “The LORD my God brutally slayed your children (and quite a few others along the way) to punish you for your insolence, heathen! Who’s laughing NOW”?

    Same mindset since the days of the Judges. No surprise there.

    It’s a good thing for Gingi Edmonds that the Hell she believes in is an imaginary place.

  347. #348 FlameDuck
    March 25, 2009

    Cuing Xian idiots saying PZ just experienced divine payback for making this post in 4…3…2…

    What? How? Prof. Myers is unharmed and the car is totalled. Clearly this is a sign from god that god is on Prof. Myers side, and for some reason hates cars with a passion!

    Whenever a woman is forced to give birth against her will, the anti-abortionist up on the list gets the child, and is expected to raise that child until adult.

    Well that’s certainly cruel and unusal punishment! You wouldn’t really want to give the criminally insane more fodder to fill with their ignorant hate? Instead have a government institution, payed for by these anti-abortionists, and this really needs to be some high class institution, like Princeton or Yale, not some backwater hell hole like these shit kickers are used to.

    Although I’m a former Marine and as such have a rather extensive vocabulary you won’t find in most dictionaries, I can’t come up with a vile enough rant to tell you what I think of this person.

    OohRah!

    Congratulations! You have the personality of a burning bag of dogshit.

    Hey! Ease of the insults! What have burning bags of dogshit ever done to you?

  348. #349 Paul
    March 25, 2009

    I have to say that the passage that particularly struck me when I read the Edmonds piece was the following:

    “The cause of the crash is a mystery. The pilot, who was a former military flier who logged over 2,000 miles, gave no indication to air traffic controllers that the aircraft was experiencing difficulty when he asked to divert to an airport in Butte. Witnesses report that the plane suddenly nosedived toward the ground with no apparent signs of a struggle. There was neither a cockpit voice recorder nor a flight data recorder onboard, and no radar clues into the planes final moments because the Butte airport is not equipped with a radar facility. Some speculate that the crash was due to ice on the wings, but this particular plane model has been tested for icy weather and experts have stated that ice being the cause is unlikely.”

    So despite what she pretends to say elsewhere she is implying that her god caused the crash.

    Nice…these anti-abortionists could make even Jerry Vlasak look reasonable!

  349. #350 Monado
    March 25, 2009

    In from Daily Kos, William F. Harrison tells “Why I provide abortions.”

    I provide abortions for my patients and for any other girl or woman who feels this her best option…

    By 1967 I was a third year medical student… and I was ending my rotation in the Ob-Gyn Service clinic. I was assigned a 40-plus-year-old, poverty-stricken mother of several children… This care-worn mother-of-several had a large abdominal mass that I rapidly determined to be a well advanced pregnancy. I asked my resident to come and break the news to this woman; it was very obvious to me that she was not going to be happy about the news of another pregnancy. When told that she – already unable to adequately feed and clothe her family – was again pregnant, she looked up at me and the resident. There we stood, two white males, well clothed, well fed young men with superior educations. We were, in her eyes, stunningly blessed and obviously going places in the world. She began to weep silently. She must have assumed, for good reason, that there was no way that we would understand her problems; she knew also that there was nothing that we could or would do to relieve her lacerating misery.

    “Oh God, doctor,” she said quietly, “I was hoping it was cancer.”

  350. #351 Bridgette
    March 25, 2009

    You must all admit that is is at least very ironic that the plane would crash so near the Tomb of the Unborn.

  351. #352 God Retardent
    March 25, 2009

    After reading some of the comments in this category,I am so glad that I manage to remove my self from ANY religious convictions years ago.What a hate filled group of people the all are.

  352. #353 Hank Fox
    March 25, 2009

    Okay, quick follow-up. Cathy at Resurrection Cemetery & Association called me back, and according to her, the Holy Cross Cemetery in Butte, MT, DOES contain a “Tomb of the Unborn.”

  353. #354 Stu
    March 25, 2009

    If being an atheist requires that I hate all religious people or assume that I am inherently more moral or smarter than them

    Who said that? That religious people get there panties in a bunch every time anyone says anything mean about their particular set of fairytales is not the fault of atheists.

    “See, all Christians are bad”

    Again, take your strawman and shove it. What this proves is that Christianity is bad, not “all Christians”.

    Guess what? Pro-choice Christians actually exist.

    Yes, and there are also Christians that believe in evolution, and there are gay Christians. I like to call them “cafeteria Xians”, because they pick and choose what parts of the Bible they believe in and/or adhere to… mostly to make their Bronze-age belief system a bit more palatable in the modern age (and perhaps because they simply like shellfish).

    The fundies are crazy, but often at least consistent; the cafeteria crowd cannot even claim the latter.

    I know that most atheists are not this petty and hateful, but a few of the posters here are, and I don’t want to be associated with it.

    You read this article and call atheists hateful? Here’s a quarter, please go buy some perspective.

  354. #355 MikeM
    March 25, 2009

    The Bee now has an article that focuses on the sadness of this tragedy. I think this is a good place to express condolences:

    http://www.sacbee.com/ourregion/story/1726635.html

    I don’t know a great deal about aircraft, but I am concerned that they allowed 14 people aboard an airplane designed for 10 people. That just leaves too much opportunity for problems; it can turn turbulence into injuries if people don’t have access to a seatbelt.

  355. #356 charley
    March 25, 2009

    I love the logic of the author and most of the people commenting here. Because one person in X religion is evil, everyone who follows said religion is evil.

    PZ never says everyone who is a Christian is evil. He says Christianity is evil, because it can and often does lead to attitudes like that of the article’s author.

  356. #357 Patrick
    March 25, 2009

    #314 Oh, come on. 300+ comments and no mention of the hundreds of bodies recovered from the crash?

    What are you even talking about- make a complete sentence/thought- and actually read the article- there aren’t “hundreds of bodies.”

    It’s a joke from a newspaper headline that makes the rounds. ‘Plane crashes in cemetary. Hundreds of bodies found.’ The joke being that most of the bodies were there before the plane crashed. Sick humor, but I rather doubt it was intended as some sort of insult.

  357. #358 Arno
    March 25, 2009

    Marcus Ramun wrote:
    “…are you on your way to becoming a convert to SimoN’s religion of love?”

    Nope, I can very easily be disgusted with a person’s actions, but not with his group membership. So I kinda miss the “us versus them” mentality.

  358. #359 Kieran
    March 25, 2009

    Truly sickening. Its amazing how low people can be.

  359. #360 Marshall Nelson
    March 25, 2009

    “Once again, I am confirmed in my opinion that Christianity is a breeder of evil, a cesspit in which the most hateful and inhuman commitment to lies and delusions can ferment. Don’t ever preach at me about Christian morality: I’ve seen it, and it is empty of love for humanity, replaced with sanctimonious idolatry and commitment to dead, dumb superstition.”

    “You find as you look around the world that every single bit of progress in humane feeling, every improvement in the criminal law, every step toward the diminution of war, every step toward better treatment of the colored races, or every mitigation of slavery, every moral progress that there has been in the world, has been consistently opposed by the organized churches of the world. I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been, and still is the principle enemy of moral progress in the world.”

    Bertrand Russell (Mar 6, 1927)

  360. #361 Alverant
    March 25, 2009

    Mike, keep in mind this isn’t just “one xian saying something mean”. It’s part of a news service and online resource. One person may be saying it, but she has support. If someone used her logic next time a church is destroyed in a tornado, do you think that website would publish them as well?

  361. #362 Richard Wolford
    March 25, 2009

    You must all admit that is is at least very ironic that the plane would crash so near the Tomb of the Unborn.

    No, I wouldn’t, because I find nothing about this situation funny, or ironic, or anything other than a fucking tragedy. How about we make some jokes about how they don’t have to save up so much for college now? Maybe a few laughs at all that space that opened up in their house? Any of those doing it for you?

  362. #363 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 25, 2009

    Bye Charlie the banned troll, aka Marshall Nelson, sociopath.

  363. #364 Bob L
    March 25, 2009

    Clearly we atheists are the blind ones here. Only our worship of false monkey gods blinds us to the loving hand of our merciful savior when He swatted that plane load of small children out of the sky like a bug. Can’t we see Jesus’ tough love message here? It is simple; if Feldkamp repent of their murder of the pre-born Jesus would forgive them, bestow a completely new group of children on Mr Feldkamp along with a hot new prize wife and the Felkamps get to join the party in the big golden house in the sky. Jesus loves us, that’s why He downed that plane.

    Why can’t we rationalist see this?
    (the above is sarcasm for the clueless)

  364. #365 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    There is nothing wrong with heddle that his broken nose wouldn’t make many of us feel quite a bit better about. Heddle, being the sanctimonious prick he is, at post #90, uses the fact that PZ has that evil bitch Gingi’s number, sees the post as an opportunity to play the aggrieved insulted martyr routine and take a pious shot at PZ, because he knows damned good and well that Gingi is too much like way too many Christians. At #269 heddle turns around to tell Simon to “work out his salvation with fear and trembling.”

    Yeah, watch out, Simon, heddle says you’re gonna go to hell unless you quake in your boots like heddle does. Simon isn’t Christian enough for heddle’s taste, but Gingi is heddle’s type. The Monster that heddle and Gingi wank over is worshipped by scum like heddle because Christianity is based on the belief that if they grovel just the right way, heddle-brandTM Christians might be spared and not among the millions of people tortured for eternity, and because we don’t take his sick and twisted fantasy life seriously, we are all gonna fry. The prospect of an eternity of what is going to happen to all of us, screaming into the uncaring void the lament that we should have listened to heddle’s warning, is exactly what gets death cultists like Gingi and heddle hot.

    To quote Frank Zappa at you heddle, “If your children ever find out how lame you are, they’ll murder you in your sleep.”

  365. #366 Sarah
    March 25, 2009

    I’m speechless. Reading that woman’s hateful, sanctimonious words made me want to weep. I hope against hope that Mr. Feldkamp never sees them.

    I can only say that I’m very, very glad there is no heaven, because spending an eternity with people like the horrific person who wrote that article would truly be hell.

  366. #367 Lambert
    March 25, 2009

    Disgusting creeps.

    Notice how often the web sites that promote these viewpoint do not allow readers to comment? Quelle surprise.

  367. #368 Bridgette
    March 25, 2009

    I did not say it was a joke or funny. I am only saying that the author has a point in talking about the children of a major abortionist dying so close to a Tomb of the Unborn. That doesn’t sound at all a bit too much of a coincedence?

  368. #369 Tulse
    March 25, 2009

    Gingi is heddle’s type.

    No, heddle is a Calvinist, which means a) God doesn’t need any intelligible reason to be a vicious prick, and b) there is nothing one can do about a).

  369. #370 Akiko
    March 25, 2009

    It is amazing to me that these people dont believe that they will also die someday. Happily, they will.

  370. #371 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    Gingi is heddle’s type.

    No, heddle is a Calvinist, which means a) God doesn’t need any intelligible reason to be a vicious prick, and b) there is nothing one can do about a).

    OK, so Gingi has more redeeming virtues than heddle.

  371. #372 SteveM
    March 25, 2009

    catgirls wrote:

    There are plenty of terrible, evil religious people in the world, but there are also a few good people who are also religious.

    It is my opinion that they are nice in spite of their relion not because of it.

    If being an atheist requires that I hate all religious people or assume that I am inherently more moral or smarter than them, it’s understandable that I don’t want to give myself that label regardless of my actual beliefs.

    Atheism is lack of beleif in god, nothing more, nothing less. Hating religion would be anti-theism and is not “required” to be an atheist, though it is correlated.

  372. #373 phantomreader42
    March 25, 2009

    All of you bastards trying to defend this death cultist, GO DIE IN A FUCKING FIRE!!

    Yes, I read the whole article. Readimg the whole thing makes it even WORSE than what PZ quoted. Reading the whole thing shows a sociopath desperately trying to make this tragedy look like an act of divine retribution, so she can CELEBRATE that act. She is reveling in the destruction of the innocent and the sorrow of the survivors. If this is not evil, then the word “evil” has no meaning.

    This monster can barely contain her glee at the DEATH OF CHILDREN! If you can look at her response and see nothing wrong with it, you are simply evil, you are utterly devoid of compassion, a mindless slave to an imaginary tyrant, you have sacrificed your heart and brain as a burnt offering to your evil god.

    I am disgusted at the thought that I share DNA with such a monster. She is living proof that religion poisons minds. This kind of irrational belief in a murderous, tyrannical god is a stain on humanity.

    And before you throw out the “she’s not a REAL christian” bullshit, consider that her vile masturbation over the corpses of children is being carried on a NATIONAL christian news website, hosted by a service which distributes press releases to media outlets throught the country. This is from the very website where this foul celebration of the deaths of children was posted:

    Christian Newswire is the most used and most recognized distributor of religious content press releases in the nation.

    If such a widely recognized christian media outlet was unable to recognize how supposedly “unchristian” her words were, what can “REAL” christianity even mean? If every prominent christian leader in America is a “fake” christian, then your religion ceases to have any meaning at all.

  373. #374 Hora
    March 25, 2009

    I’m number 373 on this comment list, so this will likely only get read by number 374, but I want to say that you can’t call Christianity heartless simply because of what one person said.

    That’s ridiculous. It’s like calling vegetarians evil Jew haters because Hitler was one.

    The evil ‘Christian’ who wrote that letter is not a real Christian. I for on, am not one either, but I believe in Christian ‘values’. Such as forgiving one another, turning the other cheek, etc. 99% of the self-proclaimed Christians on this planet are not real Christians.

  374. #375 KemaTheAtheist
    March 25, 2009

    Posted by: Bridgette #353

    “You must all admit that is is at least very ironic that the plane would crash so near the Tomb of the Unborn.”

    Why are people so quick to look at this? The guy actually doing the abortions wasn’t on the plane.

    Would the same coinscidental assertion be made if the plane was filled with the kids and grandkids of vietnam veteran and it crashed at the vietnam memorial?

    What if the plane was full of elderly people? You could make the same assertion that they were close to being dead anyways. At least they ended up at a cemetary…

    It’s not ironic or even worth pointing out… attaching the tragedy with the place it happened to the father’s occupation… He could have just been easily been an embalmer, grave digger, stem-cell researcher, life insurance agent, a coffin maker, or any of the other countless jobs that have to deal with cemetaries and death.

  375. #376 Vic
    March 25, 2009

    #375, phantomreader42

    Well spoken!

  376. #377 Richard Wolford
    March 25, 2009

    I did not say it was a joke or funny. I am only saying that the author has a point in talking about the children of a major abortionist dying so close to a Tomb of the Unborn. That doesn’t sound at all a bit too much of a coincedence?

    No, you ignorant fuck, it doesn’t; coincidence? Perhaps, but the point of a coincidence is that there is not a relationship between the events, hence it is a coincidence. And no, the author has no point whatsoever as it is, as you said, a coincidence. How many other people who have had or have performed abortions have died in plane crashes no where near this “tomb”? Do you always cherry pick or just when it’s in season?

    Begone foul troll.

  377. #378 Bob L
    March 25, 2009

    Bridgette @ “I did not say it was a joke or funny. I am only saying that the author has a point in talking about the children of a major abortionist dying so close to a Tomb of the Unborn. That doesn’t sound at all a bit too much of a coincedence?”

    It does sound like someone downed the plane, doesn’t it?

    Act of God indeed.

  378. #379 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    99% of the self-proclaimed Christians on this planet are not real Christians.

    Nor are there any true Scotsmen who use statistics meaningfully.

  379. #380 gingivitis
    March 25, 2009

    It may well not have been accidental that the plane ditched in a cemetery. The pilot may have tried to avoid killing live civilians on the ground.

  380. #381 Bob L
    March 25, 2009

    Richard Wolford @No, you ignorant fuck, it doesn’t; coincidence?”

    Or a bomb.

  381. #382 Stephanie W.
    March 25, 2009

    Reading the sneering, emoticon-infested responses Gingi has sent out, I’ve developed the conviction that she’s a /b/tard who got religion.

    Simon: lrn2rite. And why should we mourn less for the loss of our fellow “evoluted apes” than we would for the puppets of dust and vapor you imagine us to be?

    What has always disturbed me about arguments on the inscrutability of God’s ethics to humankind (it’s “just” to do harm to the uninvolved, those bystanders were asking for it, dracunculiasis is a just punishment for original sin, and it is also just if said punishment is administered apparently at random amongst those whom are “guilty” thereof, etcetera) is that, without an external standard of decency based on a thinking creature’s respect for other minds and some assurance that your particular diety is adhering to said standard, what is the difference between worshipping Yahweh and Beelzebub? Why select one over the other if both of them are equally bastards as far as we are able to discern?

  382. #383 meezy
    March 25, 2009

    Outrage at this particular person is definitely warranted. However, judging any group by its worst examples is never warranted. I get very tired of people seeing one person’s actions as a valid representation for the whole group. I know many christians who would never act this way and I know many atheists who would react the same way were the tables turned. Perhaps being religious does increase the percentage for this type of reaction slightly, but I would need some strong evidence to believe it was a statistically significant percentage. So to rephrase PZ’s last sentence:

    Don’t ever preach at me about Human morality: I’ve seen it at its worst, and it is empty of love for humanity, replaced with many things, hunger for power, greed for money, sanctimonious idolatry and commitment to dead, and dumb superstition, etc.

  383. #384 Arno
    March 25, 2009

    Hora, then please define what a “real Christian” is and what kind of personality traits/abilities demonstrate that these people are “real Christians”?

    If you can’t, you see, you’ve got the problem that “real Christians” are kinda like “proofs of intelligent design in DNA”: people claim they exist, but just cannot seem to find them.

  384. #385 William
    March 25, 2009

    Hora at #376:

    But it’s not just one person. We don’t say it without having seen a stream of evidence. We see this constantly, from all stripes of Christianity — and you don’t get to disavow a person as a “real Christian” just because you dislike what they said or did. The point here is that the author of the article herself claims to be a Christian and is proud of her Christianity, and for her as all other cases, the choice to be Christian has done her no moral good whatsoever. It never does. Any good Christian would be good without being Christian.

  385. #386 Richard Wolford
    March 25, 2009

    Or a bomb.

    Perhaps from the Evil Atheist Conspiracy?

    **dons cloak**

  386. #387 Monado
    March 25, 2009

    catgirl [279], as someone once said, “An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.”

  387. #388 DonZilla
    March 25, 2009

    So we’re not reasoning “one bad apple ruins the bushel” it’s more a case of pointing and nodding “yup. another one.”

    In this case, is there anywhere I could find evidence of “the bushel” speaking up and protesting against this “bad apple’s” article/comments? How about all those pro-choice Christians that “actually exist,” gay or other “moderate” Christians? Don’t they have anything to say?

    I’d have more respect for the religious if they could make even a feeble attempt at shouting down their extremists once in awhile.

  388. #389 Leigh Williams
    March 25, 2009

    More information on this tragic accident:

    Irving (Bud) and Pam Feldcamp lost another grandchild in 2006. Their 10-month-old grandson, Irving “Chase” Moore Feldkamp, died when he fell between his crib and mattress.

    From a website that took donations for an orphanage in his name:

    “He will be missed by his parents Irving (Buddy) and Jessica, grandparents Irving (Bud) and Pam, Glen, Kay, great-grandparents Ruth and Betty, uncles/aunts (Mike, Vanessa, Adrian, Maggie, Erin, Amy and Amie), cousins (Sydney, Christopher, Luke, Taylor and Ava).”

    Erin, Amy, Taylor, Ava, baby Jude, Mike, Vanessa, Sydney, and Christopher were killed in the plane crash.

    Dr. Feldcamp is a dentist. He was at the ski resort, awaiting his family’s arrival, when he got the sad news. With him was Bob Ching, who also lost his son, his daughter-in-law, two grandchildren, and an unborn grandchild. An additional tragic note: Dr. Feldcamp owns the leasing company that supplied the plane.

    News story here.

  389. #390 Discombobulated
    March 25, 2009

    Hora@376:

    “No True Christian”

    Bridgette@353:

    Confirmation Bias
    Cum hoc ergo propter hoc
    Cargo Cult

    My logical fallacy bingo card is overflowing… I think I need another.

  390. #391 Klokwurk
    March 25, 2009

    Bridgette:

    I did not say it was a joke or funny. I am only saying that the author has a point in talking about the children of a major abortionist dying so close to a Tomb of the Unborn. That doesn’t sound at all a bit too much of a coincedence?

    Well, one thing to note is that the graveyard in question was 500 metres from the runway the pilot was trying to land on. So it wasn’t like he just crashed into a graveyard at random. Also I can’t find anything that says whether they actually crashed close to the tomb in question or whether it was just in the same graveyard.

  391. #392 WRMartin
    March 25, 2009

    simon, Simon, simoN, or shall we simply call you MORON,

    Fuck you. Fuck your imaginary god or gods. Your prophet never existed. Your god is fiction. Your holy book is fiction. Fuck your god and everyone he looks like.
    Today is 25.03.2009 and I just wanted to get that in and on record. Not to say that nearly 50 years of saying the same thing hasn’t brought me joy and happiness.

    Fuck you, Simon. Fuck your god. Tomorrow will be 26.03.2009 and I will wish you and yours the same once again.

    Sincerely,
    W. R. Martin.

    P.S. Fuck you, god. Fuck you, Simon.

  392. #393 Windor
    March 25, 2009

    Regardless of one’s position on the issue of womyn’s reproductive rights, everybody should be speaking out against Edmonds’s hateful article. That pro-lifers aren’t condemning it speaks volumes about the seriousness of their commitment to ‘life’.

  393. #394 AVSN
    March 25, 2009

    I don’t normally bother with the comments this far in. I too shot off an email at the horror who wrote the offence piece. No real Christian would be anything other than upset with this woman.

  394. #395 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    Any good Christian would be good without being Christian.

    True, although to be a right bastard, religion isn’t necessary, but it sure helps.

    “There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.” –Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

  395. #396 Keanus
    March 25, 2009

    Edmonds not only is cruel but she can’t even get her plain facts straight. The Los Angeles Times reports that the pilot, Bud Summerfield was

    “…65-year-old former Air Force pilot with 8,500 hours of civilian flight time, including 2,000 hours in the type of plane that crashed.”

    The Times credit that info from “authorities” without being more specific. It also said he has flown the Feldkamp family for more than a decade and that the family thought of him as “Air Bud.”

  396. #397 SteveM
    March 25, 2009

    I for on, am not one either, but I believe in Christian ‘values’. Such as forgiving one another, turning the other cheek, etc.

    Those values were not invented by, nor are they eclusive to Christianity, therefore not “Christian” values. They are simply humanitarian values. Christianity as merely coopted them from their true source, just as they coopted alll their other myths and rituals from other sources. You say 99% of Christians aren’t “true” Christians? Actually it is 100%.

  397. #398 Bob L
    March 25, 2009

    Richard Worford @:”Perhaps from the Evil Atheist Conspiracy?”

    Perhaps by the same people who bomb abortion clinics?

    Unless these “tomb of the unborns” are a dime a dozen in the midwest it sounds like such a remarkable coincidence to beggar belief.

  398. #399 Carlie
    March 25, 2009

    I get very tired of people seeing one person’s actions as a valid representation for the whole group.

    It’s a valid criticism of the religion. The Bible clearly shows that one of God’s favorite activities for wrongdoers is to annihilate their families, friends, and co-citizens in addition to the wrongdoer themselves. Ever think about how many children were slaughtered when Jericho was taken over by Joshua? How many died in the flood? How many died when Sodom burned? What about Job’s children, who specifically were raised to love God, but were the collateral in a lost bet? Not our fault if some Christians are squeamish about that part of it and want to pretend it’s not there.

  399. #400 Stacy
    March 25, 2009

    PZ in car accident . He’s OK. Details at Greg Laden’s Blog.
    http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/03/pz_myers_car_wrecked_in_accide.php

  400. #401 sharky
    March 25, 2009

    Bob L:

    “Results 1 – 10 of about 711,000 for ‘tomb of the unborn.’ (0.17 seconds)”

    And those are just the ones mentioned online as meeting places or parts of services, as opposed to set up by individual congregations. You might as well act shocked and appalled that the plane crashed in a cemetary at all.

    I point out again that took 0.17 seconds. Once again, the religious side fails to bring research to a science blog… and fails.

  401. #402 DLC
    March 25, 2009

    I have to say I’m stunned. This is about as low-down as you can get and still claim to be a human being. I won’t dignify the author’s existence any further with additional comment.

  402. #403 Stu
    March 25, 2009

    Unless these “tomb of the unborns” are a dime a dozen in the midwest it sounds like such a remarkable coincidence to beggar belief.

    It was right the fuck next to the airport. Get over yourself.

  403. #404 Endor
    March 25, 2009

    #299 & #300 – agreed, of course. i was poking fun at that poster’s apparent belief her scolding is of any interest.

  404. #405 uppity cracka
    March 25, 2009

    haha! bridgette got FACEd!!

  405. #406 Richard Wolford
    March 25, 2009

    Perhaps by the same people who bomb abortion clinics?

    Unless these “tomb of the unborns” are a dime a dozen in the midwest it sounds like such a remarkable coincidence to beggar belief.

    Ah, point taken; the “pro-life” group (I assume I’m anti-life?) have been known to contain members who see no problems with bombing doctors, but children? I’ve not heard of this and I would have doubts that they would want to harm children, considering their position on abortion. So unless evidence is presented to the contrary, I will assume that there was no bombing and that something such as pilot error or excessive weight was to blame.

  406. #407 raven
    March 25, 2009

    Don’t forget Pope Ratzi! He’s single-handedly working toward the downfall of the Catholic church.

    Oh please! I’m trying real hard to forget that guy. He is definitely a liability to the RCC. No hard figures exist as to how many catholics have dropped out because of him. But there have been some.

  407. #408 phantomreader42
    March 25, 2009

    Robert Davidson @ #187:

    I’m not sure what response – I’m wondering how it could be done in such as way as to be clear, not minimising the appalling attitudes she has displayed (I agree that being mild is not helpful; it’s dishonest for one thing), but also not to dehumanise Gingi.

    Gingi dehumanizes herself. Thank you for your concern. It is noted and stupid.

    Amanda @ #202:

    I’m just curious – and let me just state for the record that I am a pro-choice athiest – how Gingi’s article is different from the post that PZ put up a few days ago about the praying pilot? Can’t it be argued that both PZ and Gingi are capable of being sad over the loss of lives while still experiencing a bit of schadenfreude?

    Thank you for your concern. It is noted and stupid.
    The pilot chose to pray instead of doing something to land the fucking plane. As a result, people died. The pilot’s abdication of his responsibility directly lead to deaths that would otherwise have been preventable. PZ did not gloat over this, but pointed out that the pilot was responsible for those deaths, and should be (and was) held responsible in a court of law. If you cannot see the difference between that post and a sociopathic ghoul celebrating the divinely-ordained murder of children for the sins of their granfather, then you are a fucking moron. There is no equivalence.

  408. #409 FlameDuck
    March 25, 2009

    You must all admit that is is at least very ironic that the plane would crash so near the Tomb of the Unborn.

    That’s not ironic! Like rain on your wedding day, it’s just bad fucking luck. In order for this to be ironic, that is to have an unexpected outcome, the children of said mayor abortionist whould have had to survive, since people dying is the expected outcome of 5 tonnes of steel and aluminium smashing into the ground at free-fall velocities.

    That doesn’t sound at all a bit too much of a coincedence?

    No. The chance of a plane crashing near a “Tomb of the Unborn” is roughly the same as the chance of a plane crashing near any other landmark in it’s flight route. Who is on the plane, is not a factor for the likelyhood of a plane crashing/stalling. Otherwise having Michael Phelps on the plane would be a surefire way to avoid crashing into the ocean.

  409. #410 CJO
    March 25, 2009

    the author has a point in talking about the children of a major abortionist dying so close to a Tomb of the Unborn. That doesn’t sound at all a bit too much of a coincedence?

    Are you evil too, or just stupid? “too much of a coincedence” for… what, exactly? For the tragic deaths of innocent children not to be the act of a benevolent deity?

    Was it Orwell to the effect that ‘if they can make you believe absurdities, they can make you commit atrocities’?

    Because the fraying edge of wingnut Christianity is starting to worry me. Methinks they will not go gentle into irrelevance.

  410. #411 Leigh Williams
    March 25, 2009

    Would you people just slow down and pay attention to what you’re reading?

    Bob L’s POINT, which flew right by you, is that perhaps anti-abortion terrorists bombed the plane.

    NOT, as you so snidely inferred, that Gawd swatted it down.

  411. #412 co
    March 25, 2009

    I did not say it was a joke or funny. I am only saying that the author has a point in talking about the children of a major abortionist dying so close to a Tomb of the Unborn. That doesn’t sound at all a bit too much of a coincedence?

    Oh, yes, 11% too much coincidence.

  412. #413 Richard Wolford
    March 25, 2009

    I took Bob L. to be sarcastic; I believe I was wrong. In fact, knowing now that this crash happened next to an airport, I wouldn’t even call it a coincidence.

  413. #414 Endor
    March 25, 2009

    #299 & #300 – agreed, of course. i was poking fun at that poster’s apparent belief her scolding is of any interest.

    __

    “I know that most atheists are not this petty and hateful, but a few of the posters here are, and I don’t want to be associated with it.”

    Great. We get it. Still don’t care about your concern trolling, but we get it.

  414. #415 sharky
    March 25, 2009

    Oh, really, Leigh? Sorry, then, Bob–I read Bridgette’s post first and mistook you for her “logic” buddy.

    It’s still wildly improbable that anyone could rig a crash with such tenuous symbolism–imagine trying to get a car to crash where you wanted, and then consider it a mile in the sky going considerably faster.

    An anti-abortion terrorist would just bomb the clinics.

  415. #416 Leigh Williams
    March 25, 2009

    All you wingnut Christian trolls, listen up:

    The Feldcamp daughters, husbands, and friend were a pediatrician, a dentist, a dental hygienist, an ophthalmologist, and a nurse.

    None of these people has anything to do with abortions. They were all health care professionals.

    Tell me again why it’s such a big “coincidence”. Do you think God hates doctors and nurses?

  416. #417 Janine, Insulting Sinner
    March 25, 2009

    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

    Voltaire

    CJO, that is from the great heretic.

  417. #418 Endor
    March 25, 2009

    “How about all those pro-choice Christians that “actually exist,” gay or other “moderate” Christians? Don’t they have anything to say?”

    It would be a mistake to assume that they aren’t talking. They simply aren’t given Fox news (or any other such platform) to speak – they don’t bring in the ratings.

  418. #419 Dutchdoc
    March 25, 2009

    Latest PC Tweets:

    Wed 25 Mar 13:03 via twitterrific:
    Thanks to the heroic efforts of the indispensable Trophy Wife, I am now at the airport and will make it to Michigan in time!

    Wed 25 Mar 13:04 via twitterrific:
    Still finding broken glass in strange places. Took off my shoes for airport security, and scattered glittery bits all over the conveyer belt

  419. #420 CJO
    March 25, 2009

    Voltaire! that’s right. Thanks, Janine.

  420. #421 Monado
    March 25, 2009

    Stu, ALL modern Christians are inconsistent, cafeteria Christians by your definition, including the anti-gay, anti-choice ones, because they ignore other rules that call for stoning people who work on the sabbath; e.g. cops, TV technicians, radio personalities, gas station attendants, doctors and nurses, emergency responders, and cashiers; and those who don’t execute their children for impudence.

  421. #422 Janine, Insulting Sinner
    March 25, 2009

    Still finding broken glass in strange places. Took off my shoes for airport security, and scattered glittery bits all over the conveyer belt

    PZ, forever the security risk.

  422. #423 Monado
    March 25, 2009

    Sorry, that should have been “and for executing their children for impudence.” Those who say “Jesus changed the rules and we don’t have to execute our sassy children or people who work on the sabbath” will be asked to explain why they’re anti-abortion when Jesus didn’t condemn it or anti-gay ditto.

  423. #424 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 25, 2009

    Thanks to the heroic efforts of the indispensable Trophy Wife, I am now at the airport and will make it to Michigan in time!

    The Trophy Wife lives up to her monicker! We will have to raise a toast in her honor this evening. The three day grog should be ripe for MAJeff’s defense.

  424. #425 phantomreader42
    March 25, 2009

    Hora @ #375

    99% of the self-proclaimed Christians on this planet are not real Christians.

    Interesting that you post this in the VERY NEXT COMMENT after mine, where I point out how incredibly stupid this claim is. Of course, I’m not the first to do so, and I’m sure I won’t be the last.

    But thank you, Hora, THE WORLD’S ONLY TRUE CHRISTIAN?!!! for explaining this to us. By your idiotic argument, there is no such thing as christianity!

    On what basis do you declare that “99% of the self-proclaimed Christians on this planet are not real Christians“? That’s quite a whopper to say without the slightest speck of evidence.

    Now, if you’re trying to argue that the overwhelming majority of self-proclaimed christian leaders and followers don’t give a flying fuck about the teachings attributed to christ, then I’d wholeheartedly agree with you. And point out that that fact makes christianity nothing more than the meaningless, empty husk of a dead cult.

  425. #426 Sherry
    March 25, 2009

    When my kids were little, they used to get very upset when bad things happened to good people. I told them life is random, but there is probability to be factored in with the randomness.

    For example, this plane crashed into a cemetery. There is no coincidence when the runway is next to an cemetery — but there is probability!

    Just like Natasha Richardson’s death, the randomness of her dying from a small fall on a bunny slope was trumped by the probability of a fatal injury occurring when one does not wear a helmet.

    Personally, I think the chaos pf life is easier to accept when randomness and probability is in control vs a real dick of a “GOD”.

  426. #427 wow
    March 25, 2009

    Seems that those who are spoon-fed moral situations from an old book have no working moral compass as it were.

  427. #428 Stu
    March 25, 2009

    FlameDuck:

    Who is on the plane, is not a factor for the likelyhood of a plane crashing/stalling. Otherwise having Michael Phelps on the plane would be a surefire way to avoid crashing into the ocean.

    Molly-worthy.

  428. #429 Louise Van Court
    March 25, 2009

    ?He had an attack where his heart should have been?
    Category: Humor
    Posted on: May 22, 2007 9:06 AM, by PZ Myers
    I wish I could have been there?Kristine Harley was in the Galapagos and got to break the news to Richard Dawkins that Jerry Falwell had died. It’s hilarious.
    It’s also true that Kristine is not a very nice girl. She’s probably a witch.

    Leviticus 3
    Category: Weirdness
    Posted on: October 24, 2007 9:33 PM, by PZ Myers
    A reader sent me this picture full of schadenfreude. Maybe this was the Gay Atheist Church of Malibu?
    Isn’t this beginning to get a little ridiculous?

    Category: Weirdness
    Posted on: October 10, 2007 1:00 AM, by PZ Myers
    You know, when a conservative Christian minister, graduate of Liberty University, and friend of Jerry Falwell is found dead under these circumstances?

  429. #430 Sastra
    March 25, 2009

    meezy #385 wrote:

    I get very tired of people seeing one person’s actions as a valid representation for the whole group. I know many christians who would never act this way and I know many atheists who would react the same way were the tables turned.

    I don’t think PZ was saying or implying that this person’s response was representative of how all Christians respond. But it does point out several things.

    First, that people who equate “Christian morality” with being reasonable and kind can’t really do this, because there are too many different viewpoints which all legitimately fall under the label “Christian morality.”

    Second, that a supernatural world view which encourages the believer to interpret apparently accidental pain and suffering as deliberate lessons, signs, warnings, and ‘soul-building’ tasks sent to the sufferer “for a reason” will tend to breed and foster an attitude that doesn’t just accept, but welcomes such necessary corrections.

    I don’t think that’s just confined to Christianity. I know “New-Age” types who rationalize that people who get diseases like cancer are getting what they “need” to grow and develop spiritually, given to them by an all-wise Cosmic Consciousness or even themselves, hovering in some spiritual realm. This way of thinking about adversity goes beyond making the best of a bad situation, and gets creepy. In Christianity, you get the added incentive of punishments for the sinful, and that can get downright creepy.

  430. #431 Medusa
    March 25, 2009

    This whole story has made me sick beyond disgusted.

    Gingi Edmonds is a waste of carbon and water.

  431. #432 Jim
    March 25, 2009

    Yet another smug, self-righteous christian, oh joy. I’m so sick of christian friends telling me they aren’t all like this. They’re just missing the point.

  432. #433 wow
    March 25, 2009

    Seems that those who are spoon-fed moral situations from an old book have no working moral compass as it were.

  433. #434 Eidolon
    March 25, 2009

    Robert:
    I’m not certain the lady in question would respond in any manner other than a dogmatic one backed by quote mining from the bible. There have been a couple of good responses up thread – better than mine was by far. Point is though, I find it hard to believe that she really minds appearing as a zealot. Deep inside, I think her only regret is…no, on second thought I doubt seriously she has any regrets. I’ll even venture a bit further to say that the silence of the pro-life movement, evangelicals and religious groups in general speaks volumes about the breadth of agreement with this bint.

    The few posts citing remarkable coincidence demonstrate the role of confirmation bias in evaluating information. Unlikely does not mean impossible without divine intervention. Given the location of the runway, not unlikely at all when you realize the number of such shrines.

  434. #435 Maargen
    March 25, 2009

    To Bill Dauphin @336:

    If you knew someone who was engaged in a vast commercial enterprise dedicated to the ongoing premeditated murder of children (i.e., this is what Ms. Edmonds and her ilk claim to believe about Mr. Feldkamp), would you be satisfied to simply cluck your tongue and warn him that if he didn’t stop, God might eventually get peeved with him?

    What, exactly, would you expect someone who thinks abortion is murder to do, in view of the laws of the land? If they really think abortion is murder, they should…what? Bomb abortion clinics? Kill abortionists? Lobby to have the laws of the land changed, perhaps?

    I am an atheist. I don’t believe in any supernatural skyman, or that humans have something called a “soul”, or anything that makes us any different from the rest of the animal kingdom other than being further along the evolutionary chain. However, since the fetal stage is a necessary point in human developement (and the most vulnerable), is it really that simple to say at what point it “becomes” human? 8 months? 6 months? 4months? 4 weeks? 1 week?

    For the sake of practicality, the law chooses at what age to begin protecting fetuses. I don’t know what that age is right now, but if the point of viability is the desired point, science is making that age younger and youger all the time. Environmentalists protect the beach sea turtles need to lay eggs in, recognizing that you can’t have sea turtles without eggs. How can I easily dismiss or ridicule people who try to protect what they see as young humans? A woman has a child and can’t afford to take care of it. If the child is 8 months old everyone agrees that it should be protected from harm under the law, even from its mother. But at what age did it not deserve protection? Isn’t there a certain level of arbitrariness (is that a word??) to that determination? This is a thorny issue, and I wish people would stop being so righteous about it. From both sides.

  435. #436 pacoyogi
    March 25, 2009

    Thanks for Gingi’s contact info upthread. I’m using it to make a donation to Planned Parenthood in her name. Now Gingi will get a lovely thank you card from an organization she hates. Keep spreading the Christian love Gingi!

  436. #437 Stu
    March 25, 2009

    Stu, ALL modern Christians are inconsistent, cafeteria Christians by your definition

    Pretty much, yes. Although I’m sure there’s a few on a compound somewhere…

  437. #438 bybelknap, FCD
    March 25, 2009

    Fuck off, Simon, you despicable shitbag.

  438. #439 pacoyogi
    March 25, 2009

    Thanks for Gingi’s contact info upthread. I’m using it to make a donation to Planned Parenthood in her name. Now Gingi will get a lovely thank you card from an organization she hates. Keep spreading the Christian love Gingi!

  439. #440 Janine, Insulting Sinner
    March 25, 2009

    Why, thank you Louise Van Court for pointing this out.

    Yes, many of us did have a moment of happiness when Falwell died. He did so much to make life more difficult for us.

    As for the second story, I did not remember it but damn, I had a funny comment on that thread.

    As for the third story, well, it was a moron who died doing something that his compatriots condemned others to hell for. If only the person was honest with himself and could trust an other person to keep an eye on him.

    Not the same as gloating over a person dead relatives.

  440. #441 Salmo
    March 25, 2009

    So… she has a phone number posted. Anyone called yet? I don’t know what I’d say.

  441. #442 catgirl
    March 25, 2009

    Yes, and there are also Christians that believe in evolution, and there are gay Christians. I like to call them “cafeteria Xians”, because they pick and choose what parts of the Bible they believe in and/or adhere to

    You can call them what you want, but they are no less Christian than the bad ones. The fundies are also picking and choosing that parts of the Bible that they believe, since the Bible does not prohibit abortion. If you choose them to represent the entire religion, then you must also choose the moderate hypocrites to represent the religion. I don’t like it that by saying we shouldn’t hate all Christians because a lot of them are bad, people seem to think I am defending the crazy evil people like Edmonds. It’s not all-or-nothing. I can realize that there are plenty of terrible Christians without using it as an excuse to think that 75% of people in this country are evil.

    Some atheists (not PZ, not most of the people on this blog) do think that being atheist requires looking down on all religious people. Even though they are the minority, they make the entire group look bad, and I choose not to be associated with them by giving myself any kind of label. It’s the worst of any group that get the most attention.

  442. #443 CrypticLife
    March 25, 2009

    catgirl,

    Whether you’re an atheist or not doesn’t actually depend on who you associate with, but on whether or not you believe at least one deity exists. If you do, you’re a deist or theist. If not, you’re an atheist.

    So, you don’t need to identify with other atheists in order to be one yourself. It’s not a club. If you feel like it’s too adversarial here, try going to a place like atheistethicist.blogspot.com.

  443. #444 Jonathan
    March 25, 2009

    Here’s a link that Gingi Edmonds has been posting on the last few days:

    http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2009/03/abortion_chain.html

  444. #445 EnglishBloke46
    March 25, 2009

    What a vile mammal. I hesitate to use the term “human”
    sometimes I’m ashamed to be a member of the same species (or are Xians a different species perhaps Homo Gullibleus?)

  445. #446 SteveM
    March 25, 2009

    Environmentalists protect the beach sea turtles need to lay eggs in, recognizing that you can’t have sea turtles without eggs. How can I easily dismiss or ridicule people who try to protect what they see as young humans?

    Bullshit. Sea turtles are endangered with extinction, humans, not so much. Second these people are not concerned with “protecting” those unborn children. They only want to stop abortion, they care nothing for providing for those children forced to be born to women without the means nor desire to care for it. Their “concern” is as hollow as any “concern troll” you find on the internet. And it is not an issue of when it becomes human, nor even when it gets “rights”. None of your rights entitle you to live off someone elses body and life. You do have the right to permit (or forbid) someone to live off yours.

  446. #447 CocoLoco
    March 25, 2009

    Wow. This woman lives down the street from me! Crazy small world we live in.
    a)I used to be a very devout Christian and always felt uncomfortable about divine retribution or whatever one wants to call it. Now, it just makes me want to vomit.
    b)If she didn’t mean “I told you so” or to use this tragedy for her own means, why write the article in the first place?
    c)Hope PZ’s okay, also.

  447. #448 Jonathan
    March 25, 2009

    Here’s a link that Gingi Edmonds has been posting on the last few days:

    http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2009/03/abortion_chain.html

  448. #449 CJO
    March 25, 2009

    This is a thorny issue, and I wish people would stop being so righteous about it. From both sides.

    Yes, and since it is such a thorny issue, with valid arguments for contradictory positions, as a society, we should leave the choice up to the conscience of the individual.

    Lobby to have the laws of the land changed, perhaps?

    The point is, though, when they do this, and when they are asked what punitive measures ought to be attached to the new laws they favor, they, as a rule, do not act as if they truly believe abortion should be classed with violent crimes such as murder. That, more than anything, bears out Bill’s point. The forced birth movement has fuck-all to do with the thorny issues of when life? when personhood? and everything to do with controllling women’s sexuality. That some of the rank-and-file really do get teary-eyed thinking about “them poor little babies” just proves, yet again, that most people don’t think, they just go with their feelings.

  449. #450 Stu
    March 25, 2009

    How can I easily dismiss or ridicule people who try to protect what they see as young humans?

    How can I easily dismiss or riducule people who try to protect sperm, which they see as young humans?

    A woman has a child and can’t afford to take care of it.

    Then she shouldn’t have had it. Or at least, she should have had the option not to have had it. Or, maybe she can have it adopted by those caring, loving “people that try to protect what they see as young humans” that want to deny her that choice. Oddly, those caring loving people never seem to be arond afterwards.

    But at what age did it not deserve protection? Isn’t there a certain level of arbitrariness (is that a word??) to that determination?

    Of course there is. So for starters, let’s side with the rights and health of the existing, living, breathing human being involved: the mother. After that, how about we cap it at the differentiating point between humans and others: a functioning brain. Not the potential of one, a functioning brain.

    This is a thorny issue, and I wish people would stop being so righteous about it. From both sides.

    Your concern is noted and dismissed.

  450. #451 Kendo
    March 25, 2009

    Hey SimoN, you forgot to mention the best bit about the story of Pharaoh and Moses. Read it again. You’ll find that Pharaoh tried to repent several times but was prevented from doing so. Your god wouldn’t let Pharaoh change his mind. Why? Go on, read the story again, the reason is right there in the text. God wanted to show everyone what a hard bastard he is. So don’t give us any of that repentance bullshit. You and that ghoul Gingi both want a god who kills people just to show how tough he is. A god who prevents people from repenting just so he can murder innocent people. You and Gingi can both go and stick your heads up each others’ arseholes.

  451. #452 Jonathan
    March 25, 2009

    Thought I would post my e-mail and response from the Newswire media:

    Would your response have been the same had Irving ‘Bud’ Feldkamp been the owner of not the nation’s largest privately owned abortion chain but rather the owner of the nation’s largest chain of Nazi like concentration camps used for the purpose of exterminating all those of Jewish ethnicity?

    Had Ms. Edmonds written an article pointing out the irony of such events unfolding and the lack of any of the media’s reporting on this significant twist in the story I believe you would not have issued a response and would have likely agreed with Ms. Edmonds article. The reason is you value all human life as long as it is not the pre-born. Yet the pre-born are most defenseless and innocent among us. It appears your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

    Dan McCullough,
    Christian Communication Network
    2020 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
    Washington DC 20006
    202.546.0054

    http://www.ChristianNewswire.com

    From: Jonathan Williams
    Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:25 AM
    To: newsdesk@christiannewswire.com
    Subject: Disgusting

    I want to issue a complaint about the opinion piece you carried from Gingi Edmonds regarding the tragic plane crash in Montana: http://www.gingiedmonds.com/

    The article was beyond vile. This woman’s rant was nothing more than a sanctimonious, delusional piece of filth.

    I am not a believer in any way, shape or form, and this article has only solidified my belief that Christianity produces some of the most illogical, deluded, dangeous individuals on the face of this planet.

    -jonathan

  452. #453 uppity cracka
    March 25, 2009

    Stu said-

    “Of course there is. So for starters, let’s side with the rights and health of the existing, living, breathing human being involved: the mother. After that, how about we cap it at the differentiating point between humans and others: a functioning brain. Not the potential of one, a functioning brain.”

    What point is that exactly? Functioning brain, I mean. Not trying to be a smartass, either. I’m actually wondering if that knowledge is available.

  453. #454 Jonathan
    March 25, 2009

    And finally, this was also sent to me from the Christian Newswire site:

    Dead Children Expose the Worst in Us

    Contact: Gary McCullough, 202-546-0054

    OPINION, March 25 /Christian Newswire/ — The following is submitted by Gary McCullough, director of Christian Newswire:

    As the director of Christian Newswire I enjoy a unique opportunity to observe outlandish opinions and the responses they provoke.

    On March 24, our service distributed a submission from Gingi Edmonds* that engendered much more than the usual number of replies questioning the character of Christian Newswire. This is not surprising since the item addressed is a combination of abortion, the death of born children, and the always popular topic of God’s wrath. Edmonds wrote about the recent Montana airplane crash in which several children died, and the ties the family has to the abortion business.

    As director of this newswire, I do not believe I need to defend our choice of what we distribute from attacks by those who trumpet the phrase “pro-choice.” I am not concerned about the intolerance expressed by those who scream for tolerance. Nor do I intend to defend Ms. Edmonds’ freedom to express herself from those who cry “censorship” to justify the publication of anything vile, offensive or disgusting.

    Hypocrisy is just too easy of a target.

    What I do find of interest is the common misunderstanding of God’s judgment and what Edmonds expressed. Imagine if you will, a father telling his toddler son not to touch a hot stove. Over and over the father warns that the stove will burn him if he touches it. Yet the toddler does, and cries out in pain. The infant mind might blame the father for the burn he just experienced — thinking he was being punished. “Why did you burn me daddy?”

    I do not know the extent of the pain we will experience for failing to heed our Heavenly Father’s admonition not to murder. Child-on-child and child-on-adult murderers are becoming less rare. An overall lack of respect for human life is undoubtedly having an impact. The highest concentration of child-on-child murders occur within the segment of our society with the highest concentration of abortion clinics. And we cry out, “Why is this happening — is God punishing us?”

    Ms. Edmonds does not claim that God took the lives of the airplane crash victims in an act of vengeance. She does point out the irony of such a loss being experienced by a leader in the child-killing profession.

    Edmonds also asks why the business of this family’s patriarch was not mentioned by in any of the news coverage.

    What would the media’s response have been if this loss of life happened to one who operated a “death camp” for the Nazis? Would the press have included the profession of the patriarch of this family if he was part of the 9-11 attack? The twist of fate displayed by one grieving over the loss of his own family while employed in the extinguishing the lives of others would see widespread news coverage.

    The most frequently used word to attack the opinion put forth by Edmonds was “shame” as in “have you no shame?” and “shame on you.”

    I propose that as is the case in the vast majority of human interactions when stress and discomfort bubble to the surface — the thing we claim to despise the most in others is a fault within ourselves that we refuse to acknowledge.

    Do I need to state the obvious? What is more shameful than murdering your own child? One answer might be murdering others’ children for hire.

    Thus I am taking this opportunity to say to all who have asked if Christian Newswire has no shame, or if Ms. Edmonds has no shame; that boat sailed in 1973. As is true of our nation’s past tolerance of slavery, our present tolerance of child-killing in the name of abortion is a defining trait of American society.

    When it comes to child-murder, as a nation, in can be said:

    We have no shame.

  454. #455 Bill Dauphin
    March 25, 2009

    Maargen:

    If they really think abortion is murder, they should…what? Bomb abortion clinics? Kill abortionists?

    Actually, yes. Not that I’m advocating such a horrifying act, of course, but it would at least be consistent with what they claim they believe.

    Anti-abortion activists are fond of comparing abortion to the Nazi holocaust. Well, if this were the actual holocaust, I think we’d all consider bombing gas chambers and killing death-camp commanders heroic. Certainly we’d consider giving the Nazis a pursed-lipped scolding and then going happily about one’s normal life a bit strange.

    I’m NOT saying people should go out and start terrorizing abortion clinics; I am saying that the relative benignity with which anti-abortionists approach their opponents reveals their stated positions as disingenuous, opportunistic hyperbole, rather than genuinely heartfelt moral outrage.

    Lobby to have the laws of the land changed, perhaps?

    Ah, but there’s the thing: Even if they really, truly believed that mass murder was taking place, I admit that armed revolution might seem implausible to them… but that excuse doesn’t explain why, when they do lobby for laws to be changed, the changes they lobby for are inconsistent with the philosophical justification they advance for the changes. The infamous South Dakota law — AFAIK the most aggressive attempt to date to criminalize abortion — specified (IIRC) a maximum of 5 years in prison for an abortion provider and no punishment whatsoever for the mother or anyone else.

    If a fetus were a human person with the same rights as any other human person, the act of hiring a doctor to terminate a pregnancy could not be interpreted as anything other than a premeditated murder for hire… with a defenseless child as its victim. This would be sufficient to get the death penalty — for both the “hitman” (i.e., the doctor) and those who hired him (i.e., at least the mother, and also anyone else involved in arranging or paying for the abortion) — in every jurisdiction that has it (many places include both the “for hire” aspect and the fact that the victim is a child among the “special circumstances” that trigger enhanced sentencing), and the maximum available penalty in those places that don’t do executions.

    And yet, the fierce moral warriors of the “pro-life” movement ask for 5 lousy years. And for the cubed root of fuck-all for the co-conspirators.

    In other words, they cry murder! to justify meddling in people’s private lives, and then demand that these “murderers” be punished like… well, like shoplifters, if at all.

    I’m not saying we should punish people for seeking or performing abortions; I’m just saying the opposition to abortion is based on LIES.

  455. #456 Stu
    March 25, 2009

    You can call them what you want, but they are no less Christian than the bad ones.

    Tell that to them.

    The fundies are also picking and choosing that parts of the Bible that they believe, since the Bible does not prohibit abortion.

    I think you missed a Commandment there.

    If you choose them to represent the entire religion, then you must also choose the moderate hypocrites to represent the religion.

    Okay, I’ll explain this to you one more time. We’re not talking about an innate property of a person, such as being black, or gay. Christians make a conscious choice to ignore reality and believe in a flaming pile of bullshit. That bullshit enables them to be shitty human beings.

    The “hate” we display here is for that flaming pile of bullshit, and for what it turns people into.

    Again: we’re not saying Christianity is bad because of the actions of a few loons. We’re saying Christianity is poppycock, and is awful and dangerous because it enables lunacy. That it does not make every single follower into a raging misanthrope is a very poor excuse.

    I don’t like it that by saying we shouldn’t hate all Christians because a lot of them are bad,

    Nobody here “hates all Christians”. We hate their viewpoints. That kind of antropomorphing a person’s viewpoints into the person entirely is irrational, and albeit not completely absent in the atheist community (such as it is), far and away more common in the religious.

    people seem to think I am defending the crazy evil people like Edmonds.

    You can take that straw-man and stick it with your other ones. Go play the victim somewhere else.

    I can realize that there are plenty of terrible Christians without using it as an excuse to think that 75% of people in this country are evil.

    Good for you. Now point out where this was actually said.

    Some atheists do think that being atheist requires looking down on all religious people.

    [Citation needed]

  456. #457 uppity cracka
    March 25, 2009

    abortion. kind of a touchy subject, huh?

  457. #459 Scott
    March 25, 2009

    “We warned him, for his children’s sake…”

    Is it too far out there to suspect “sabotage for Jesus”?

  458. #460 Stu
    March 25, 2009

    What point is that exactly? Functioning brain, I mean.

    A NEJM quote I don’t have an exact link for right now:

    “Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns…First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks.”

    So for me, personally, a ban on abortions after 26 weeks (with exceptions for rape, severe defects and health of the mother, of course) would be defensible.

  459. #461 Kompani
    March 25, 2009

    Sometimes something just stops you in your tracks. The article by Gingi Edmonds is one of those times. Staggering heartless tripe.

  460. #462 Spyderkl
    March 25, 2009

    OMC. What kind of pig would say something like that about the death of real honest-to-goodness (as opposed to masses of unformed cells unable to survive outside the womb) children? Ugh.

    I’ve never missed religion since I walked away from it, and I sure as hell don’t miss it after reading this.

  461. #463 Susan
    March 25, 2009

    Godbags are pathetic when they show their true colors. Their cackling in this instance reminds me of the joy they fantasize feeling when everyone who ever disagreed with them is tortured and thrown into flames in their imagined glorious afterlife. What hate-filled hearts they have. What limited imaginations, incapable of empathy. If they keep broadcasting the hate at this rate (and they revel in it so, why would they stop?), I’m going to be able to enjoy watching their numbers diminish to a pitiable few, while I’m still alive. As their gods are rendered meaningless and irrelevant, I’ll enjoy watching religion meet its inglorious, well-deserved death, much as they thought they’d enjoy watching hell. All that will remain is the music, which is fine by me.

  462. #464 heddle
    March 25, 2009

    Susan,

    Their cackling in this instance reminds me of the joy they fantasize feeling when everyone who ever disagreed with them is tortured and thrown into flames in their imagined glorious afterlife.

    You’re an idiot.

  463. #465 Bill Dauphin
    March 25, 2009

    CJO (@449):

    Thanks for so concisely recapitulating my argument. In particular, this…

    The forced birth movement has fuck-all to do with the thorny issues of when life? when personhood? and everything to do with controllling women’s sexuality.

    …is precisely what I’ve been trying to articulate.

  464. #466 Janine, Ignorant Slut
    March 25, 2009

    heddle, I hear that the smelling the burning flesh of the damned is one of the sublime pleasures of heaven.

  465. #467 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    No heddle, Susan is exactly right, that’s just the kind of fucking pathetic asshole you show yourself to be here every time you show up to pietize at us. Piss off, you useless godbag.

  466. #468 Endor
    March 25, 2009

    “Their cackling in this instance reminds me of the joy they fantasize feeling when everyone who ever disagreed with them is tortured and thrown into flames in their imagined glorious afterlife.”

    Oh boy, do they enjoy dreaming up with nearly orgasmic glee all the ways in which we will be tortured and how much suffering we be put through. Usually with an added dose of “I’ll be laughing from heaven” tossed in for added bile.

  467. #469 Endor
    March 25, 2009

    I don’t understand the response from the newswire douchebag. He’s saying people who object to the use of the deaths of children being used to castigate their grandfather are hypocritical, but the woman doing so – to illustrate her personal agenda against when she considers the needless death of children – isn’t hypocritical?

  468. #470 uppity cracka
    March 25, 2009

    Stu-460

    Thanks! That’s interesting, I’ll investigate further.

  469. #471 uppity cracka
    March 25, 2009

    I think that’s pretty much the gist of it, Endor.

  470. #472 Stu
    March 25, 2009

    Aww, heddle, is that all you’ve got? Shouldn’t you be explaining to us maggots how your iron-clad Calvinist logic proves us wrong?

  471. #473 heddle
    March 25, 2009

    Janine,

    heddle, I hear that the smelling the burning flesh of the damned is one of the sublime pleasures of heaven.

    You do, huh? Well, even if we grant that, for the sake of argument, it does not follow that we fantasize that “everyone who ever disagreed with [us] is tortured and thrown into flames.”

    Endor,

    Oh boy, do they enjoy dreaming up with nearly orgasmic glee all the ways in which we will be tortured and how much suffering we be put through. Usually with an added dose of “I’ll be laughing from heaven” tossed in for added bile.

    No, we don’t. But don’t let the facts get in the way of a good lie.

  472. #474 foldedpath
    March 25, 2009

    @Scott #459:
    Is it too far out there to suspect “sabotage for Jesus”?

    The FAA is looking into reports that the plane was overloaded. There were three more people than rated capacity (or possibly even seats!… although the one infant might have been on a parent’s lap). The pilot was 65 years old and there was no co-pilot. Heart attacks and stroke are always a risk with older pilots, and a commercial flight would have had a co-pilot. Also, it’s a time of year and location where wing or tailplane icing can be a factor.

    Occam’s Razor says those are in line way ahead of sabotage for Jesus, as likely causes.

  473. #475 Paul Dorman
    March 25, 2009

    If someone wants to let her know how they feel..
    Gingi Edmonds
    (559) 772-7911

    [Source: http://www.gingiedmonds.com/About.html

  474. #476 uppity cracka
    March 25, 2009

    Heddle,

    I am an idiot, too? Because if you say so, I must be.

  475. #477 frog
    March 25, 2009

    Sastra: First, that people who equate “Christian morality” with being reasonable and kind can’t really do this, because there are too many different viewpoints which all legitimately fall under the label “Christian morality.”

    It goes way beyond that. There are many reasonable and kind Christians — but their ideology is evil, just as there were many good and kind Communist party members in the Soviet Union, or good and kind white southerners in the ante-bellum, or good and kind Aztec aristocrats.

    The ideology demands worship of a cruel, sadistic, completely amoral entity. There’s no way around that reality — any God that fits their Bible and ideology must be a moral monster, a raving lunatic, a despotic dictator who feeds on the flesh of children. Christian are good people despite their religion.

    I think this is an essential point — the empirical truth or lack thereof for a religion is secondary to it’s aesthetic and moral aspect; concordance with reality is relevant because it’s necessary for building any reasonable morality, not visa-versa. But too many atheists are afraid to take on the morality of Christianity (and Islam) as ideologies rather than as sociological entities (which is an undecidable).

    Any decent morality starts from the given that kindness to others is the basis of good (global reciprocity); not that it’s the result of some other set of assumptions. Beauty is not a result, but is the very ground of a system of subjective integration.

    The sophisticated Christian argument (the Courtesan) is exactly that inverted — but we have the better ground and refuse to use it. Their God kills children for disrespecting his prophets, commits genocide against entire nations, curses generations for the acts of their forefathers, and only forgives those who submit unreservedly. If he were to exist, only a moral coward would acquiesce unreservedly — even East Germans grumbled and joked about their totalitarian subjugation. Christians lack the moral fiber of a Winston Smith.

  476. #478 JBlilie
    March 25, 2009

    Saxon @ 100:

    No one believes that God caused that accident. The fact is, evil is in the world. Bad things happen to good people all the time. Bud Feldkamp made millions off the deaths of preborn children, and now, he’s lost nearly all of his. How horrid is that? We can only pray that this tragic event will show him how precious life is, and he will choose to distance himself from the evil that we believe attacked his family.

    And there’s no such thing as a contradiction in theology! You really think this?!

    “Trust me, Gingi is not revelling in anything. She is sickened by this. She’d seen these people, face to face, she’d prayed for them.”

    You’d have to be a self-righteous fool to miss the triumphal tone of “I-told-you-so my god taught you a lesson now, didn’t he!?” tone in that article. You are seriously deluded.

    Prayer is nonsense. It’s been proven to be a myth. Pray over them?! That’d be like me sacrificing a goat over you, or reading the chicken’s entrails over you, or shaking my magic rattles (or crystals or magnets) over you. Do you see how this looks to us?

    We feel the same way about your god that you do about baal, wotan, and zeus.

    Exodus 21:22-25:

    22 “If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she miscarries but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.”

  477. #479 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    Heddle, you lying sack of crap, you’ve got your nerve telling a crowd of former Christians what we did or didn’t believe, what we were or were not taught to believe about hell and its place in the fever dreams of morons like you.

  478. #480 uppity cracka
    March 25, 2009

    uppity cracka, #476

    I haven’t read your earlier posts. If you wrote some unsubstantiated gross generalization along the lines of “Christians smile wistfully whilst pondering the eternal torment of the wretched heathen” then yes, you’re an idiot. But like I said, I haven’t read your previous posts.

  479. #481 Maargen
    March 25, 2009

    To Stu@450:

    How can I easily dismiss or ridicule people who try to protect what they see as young humans?
    How can I easily dismiss or riducule people who try to protect sperm, which they see as young humans?

    I don’t know about you, but I don’t find it difficult at all to dismiss people who feel that “every sperm is sacred. every sperm is good”. Sperm, left to its own accord, isn’t in the act of developing into a person. Yes, it’s true that many fetuses, left of their own accord, are naturally aborted and never become babies, just as many babies die in infancy and never become adults. I’m just questioning the ethics of willfully ending the developement of another human.

    A woman has a child and can’t afford to take care of it.
    Then she shouldn’t have had it. Or at least, she should have had the option not to have had it. Or, maybe she can have it adopted by those caring, loving “people that try to protect what they see as young humans” that want to deny her that choice. Oddly, those caring loving people never seem to be arond afterwards.

    Agreed. I also find it odd that these caring people don’t seem to care much about every pregnant mother having the prenatal healthcare that would help the fetuses have a better chance at a healthy life. But you’re missing my point. The sentence you quoted wasn’t an argument, it was a premise. My argument is why is it ok for the same woman to end her pregnancy at 8 months, but not 2, when her circumstances are the same?

    So for starters, let’s side with the rights and health of the existing, living, breathing human being involved: the mother.

    I’m not questioning whether the health of the mother should be sacrificed for the child. But again, in situations where the mother’s health is not at risk, why should her rights as an “existing, living, human being” be abrogated by an 8 month old fetus, but not a 2 month old? And when did that 8 month old get its rights as an “existing, living, human being”? Or do you believe it has any? It can only be killed after it has a functioning brain, but it would have developed one if it hadn’t been killed first. Was it not human before the brain developed?

    This is a thorny issue, and I wish people would stop being so righteous about it. From both sides.

    Your concern is noted and dismissed.

    Of course it is! Because that unquestioning belief in one’s own point of view, that sense of unwavering certainty – that’s what we atheists are know for. Being openminded and able to re-examine our position would only make us like, um, religionists??

  480. #482 Stu
    March 25, 2009

    Thanks for the laugh with the accidental sockpuppetry there, heddle.

  481. #483 heddle
    March 25, 2009

    Post #480 was mine, not uppity cracka’s. Paste error. Apologies.

  482. #484 Sherry
    March 25, 2009

    Having worked weight and balance for a commuter airline, the children would all be counted as “half-weights”. If this plane was overloaded, it’s because of baggage, not the number of passengers.

  483. #485 weaponsofmassdeception
    March 25, 2009

    Re: #452
    I got the same ‘response’, word for word. I’m sure their in box is flooded with emails, which of course they see as ‘good’.

    Would your response have been the same had Irving ‘Bud’ Feldkamp been the owner of not the nation’s largest privately owned abortion chain but rather the owner of the nation’s largest chain of Nazi like concentration camps used for the purpose of exterminating all those of Jewish ethnicity?

    Apples – In real life Mr. Feldkamp has broken no laws.
    Oranges – in Red Herring world, we change the subject and add Law-breaking Nazis to the story.

    So no, my response may not be similar, but not for the reasons he thinks I will state. (My first question is how does one get a business permit for a ‘Nazi like concentration camp’? Just sayin’)

    Now I don’t want to call these folks the scum of the earth or anything but…….

  484. #486 Strangebrew
    March 25, 2009

    The position of Dan McCullough…the spokesman for Christian bollocks is no better then a rancid jeebus clone…all he has is strawman argument and hiding behind the free speech catechism delivered with pompous and prurient attitude towards the folk that have complained about his lack of moral judgement.

    So be it…the face of Christianity today is very very ugly….
    He displays that face with no shame and no understanding…and absolutely no dignity.

  485. #487 Sven DiMilo
    March 25, 2009

    @#454:

    born children

    Far as I could get.

  486. #488 heddle
    March 25, 2009

    Stu,

    Thanks for the laugh with the accidental sockpuppetry there, heddle

    No problem–I deserve mockery for that mistake. (And it’s the second time in the last couple of weeks. Damn.)

  487. #489 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    Heddle is an ethical cripple who always shows up to criticize PZ and his readers for criticizing the specific behaviors of Christians, as if no failing could be as bad as atheism. You’ve seen one heddle dropping, you’ve seen ‘em all.

  488. #490 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    “I deserve mockery”

    Fixed that for you, heddle.

  489. #491 Leon
    March 25, 2009

    Wow. Unbelievable. “I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment, but I [just can't help myself, gosh darn it!]”

    If she’s hoping to encourage conversions to atheism, she’s doing a great job.

  490. #492 KemaTheAtheist
    March 25, 2009

    “No problem–I deserve mockery for that mistake. (And it’s the second time in the last couple of weeks. Damn.)”

    You deserve mockery for a lot more than just sockpuppetry…

  491. #493 Tulse
    March 25, 2009

    I’m just questioning the ethics of willfully ending the developement of another human.

    So you are presumably against IVF, since it routinely produces more embryos than are implanted, and implants more embryos than are likely to come to term.

  492. #494 JBlilie
    March 25, 2009

    heddle@473:

    The doctrine of damnation is my second most important reason for rejecting Christianity:

    Love me or burn: The central dogma of Christianity are that you must love Jesus and accept him as God and then you will be ?saved? and spend eternity in Heaven after you die. If you don?t do this, you will be tormented in hell for an eternal (endless, infinite) period of time. These are the simple conclusions that follow from Christian dogma (airy sophistry about mild Jesus bringing love and happiness to your life does not change the basic equation stated.) All non-Christians burn: if you are not a Christian (and many Christian sects extend this to any kind of Christian other than their brand), then you burn in hell forever, EVEN PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER SEEN A BIBLE BURN FOREVER, and there have been many millions (billions probably) of these in the history of the earth. Even insincere Christians burn: those who go through the motions but don?t truly believe. This God is asserted to be kind, loving, and forgiving. This is logically inconsistent.

    Mark 16:16: ?He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.?

    Eternal punishment in hell: Forever is a long time. Punishment is understood by humans to be just when it fits the offense committed. ETERNAL punishment even of a very mild sort (and hell is described in Christian doctrine as blood-curdlingly nasty, even without the eternal part thrown in), is, by definition, infinite in scope (anything multiplied by infinity is infinite.) The only just offense for which it could be imposed is an infinitely bad one. Humans have finite powers and therefore are incapable of an infinitely bad offense. A person?s lack of knowledge of this special God, Jesus, cannot be justly judged to be an infinitely bad offense. The dogma of hell is simply logically inconsistent with the definition Christians provide of their God: all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, loving, forgiving, kind. Imposing an infinite punishment for any finite offense is unjust and evil. Therefore, it can never be justly imposed on humans, who have finite abilities. The good judge others by their character, not their beliefs, and punish deeds, not thoughts, and punish only to teach, not to torture.

    An atheist (or some one who has never been exposed to Christian teaching, for example a Taoist or Confucian grandmother in Hunan in 439 AD) who lives an exemplary life, deeply moral, kind, generous, forgiving, public-spirited, devotes themselves and all their possessions to the care of the poor, but who does one lick of work on a Sunday (or was that Saturday?!), swears, tells a single lie, has a single thought of lust for his neighbor?s beautiful wife or daughter, steals one tiny bit of food when starving (actually, given the Christian doctrine of ?original sin? no action of this sort is necessary for the conclusion to follow) will be subjected to an INFINITE punishment. However, if a venally evil murderer, rapist, thief, pederast, whore-monger, child torturer reaches the end of his long life of debauchery, and simply decides to love Jesus and say he?s sorry (to whom? the victims of his crimes?) then he gets eternal bliss in paradise. This is not a just or good doctrine.

  493. #495 Endor
    March 25, 2009

    “No, we don’t. But don’t let the facts get in the way of a good lie.”

    Yes, you do. (You collectively, of course. I have no idea, nor do I at all care, what you do). You’ve done it to my face, to children in my presence, to untold numbers of people online.

    But, don’t like the facts get in the way of a good self-delusion.

  494. #496 heddle
    March 25, 2009

    OT, but I had to share the good news that we’re number 3!

  495. #497 Brownian
    March 25, 2009

    After reading through this thread, I think it’s about time I spoke up and came clean. You see, I am the world’s only True Christian. I know it’s hard to believe, me being a professed atheist and all, but most of you here know it’s wrong to judge all by the actions of a few (or even a majority), and therefore the non-Christianity that applies to every other atheist out there has no bearing on me. It’s also difficult to believe from a numerical perspective, but even Hora–him- or herself a false Christian–recognises that “99% of the self-proclaimed Christians on this planet are not real Christians” (thought the actual percentage of false Christians is closer to 99.9999999473684%). I also know many of you will find this distasteful, some because they’ve got all sorts of unpleasant associations with Christianity as a result of the actions of those who falsely describe themselves as Christians, others because they falsely believe themselves to be Christians and me to be a non-Christian as a result of the lack of concordance between our beliefs. But I assure you, as only one who knows in his heart that they know the Truth can, that it is true.

    So what makes me the only True Christian and others not? Simple: I follow scripture to the letter, except when I don’t. And by following scripture to the letter, I mean of course I follow the meaning of scripture as revealed in my heart (except for when the meaning jibes perfectly with the literal translation, in which case I follow both equally.) And what about all those other self-proclaimed Christians? Why are they false? Simple: they don?t follow scripture, the meaning of which has been revealed to my heart. For instance, how many do you know of that follow YHWH?s proscription against wearing mixed fabrics? I can bet none. (As an aside, I don?t follow Shatnez either, but that?s because I am a Christian, not Christ himself. Christians?er, the Christian, as I?m the only one?is fallible, as he is human.) And those that do aren?t True Christians because they violate other Biblical proscriptions. Can any say they?ve always turned the other cheek? (Non-cheek turners are non-Christians.) How about those who bring peace, and not a sword (non-sword bringers are non-Christians).

    So then, what exactly is a True Christian? How do they act? Well, they act very much like me. In fact, they act exactly like me. A True Christian is approximately 6? tall, 210 lbs. (about 10-15 lbs heavier than they should be, but True Christians are working on that and in fact just bought a gym membership in February), with dark brown hair that?s greying by the year. They work in public health, they?re Canadian (Croatian and Lithuanian ancestry), and they?re inordinately fond of beer and conversation and poker. They really should quit smoking (that include both tobacco and the other stuff), but that?s all part of the long-term plan of which the new gym routine is part. Needless to say, they never go to church (churches being dens of false and unbelievers and stuff).

    I know all of the above sounds vague and wishy-washy and conveniently specific to me, but think about it: haven?t I just said what every other Christian says, including the part about everyone who doesn?t do or think as I do as not being a True Christian?

    The only difference is that when I say it, it?s true.

  496. #498 raven
    March 25, 2009

    Now I don’t want to call these folks the scum of the earth or anything but…….

    Not quite right. They are from below the earth. These are just ghouls feeding off of the dead. Fundie xianity doesn’t seem to have any lower limit to how low they can sink.

    76% of the US population describes themselves as xian, a percentage that is dropping and has dropping 10-15% in the last few decades. Gingi Edmonds and her mob of ghouls is the reason why.

    So be it…the face of Christianity today is very very ugly….

    Their mentality is no different from a moslem suicide bomber, a Mullah condemming a woman for driving a car, or xians killing a witch. Religious fanatics with a seething hate they mistake for god. And normal people find it repulsive these days.

  497. #499 Jonathan Williams
    March 25, 2009

    #485 – Yeah, lovely of them to strawman and concept conflate-spam us all to death. Assholes. I basically wrote back something like, “The stupid, it burns!”

    #487 – Don’t rightly blame ya!

  498. #500 Amanda
    March 25, 2009

    Phantomreader @408 “PZ did not gloat over this, but pointed out that the pilot was responsible for those deaths, and should be (and was) held responsible in a court of law. If you cannot see the difference between that post and a sociopathic ghoul celebrating the divinely-ordained murder of children for the sins of their granfather, then you are a fucking moron.”

    Okay, well, people are disgusted that Gingi used this opportunity to make a point – that God will punish those who support abortion (or something similar). And they should be – it was insensitive (and on top of that her beliefs are irrational and freaking crazy).

    Perhaps PZ’s post, which would not have been posted had it not been intended to drive home a point about religion, was insensitive as well, simply because it was an opportunity to make a point during a time when people were grieving. Or at least it could be interpreted as being insensitive, just as Gingi’s has been.

    I wasn’t asking about the difference in logic in the posts. But perhaps you missed that as you were working up your hot-headed and reactionary response.

  499. #501 JBlilie
    March 25, 2009

    “And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’” MAT 9:47,48

    This hell you imagine sounds pretty badly to me …

  500. #502 heddle
    March 25, 2009

    JBlilie

    The doctrine of damnation is my second most important reason for rejecting Christianity:

    Well I’m glad you think so.

    As for the rest of your comment–didn’t you post the same tome earlier?

  501. #504 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    “I had to share the good news that we’re number 3!”

    And in my book you’ll always be number two. And now, back to potty training my three year old.

  502. #505 shonny
    March 25, 2009

    Posted by: Kendo | March 25, 2009 1:54 PM

    You and that ghoul Gingi both want a god who kills people just to show how tough he is. A god who prevents people from repenting just so he can murder innocent people. You and Gingi can both go and stick your heads up each others’ arseholes.

    Re that last sentence: – More a question for them of getting their heads out of their own asses, isn’t it?
    Will still maintain that religion is lobotomy without the physical atrocities.

  503. #506 foldedpath
    March 25, 2009

    Sherry #484:Having worked weight and balance for a commuter airline, the children would all be counted as “half-weights”. If this plane was overloaded, it’s because of baggage, not the number of passengers.

    Well, one difference is that baggage doesn’t move around and change the plane’s center of gravity, which might have been a factor if there were more kids than seats, on that smallish plane.

  504. #507 raven
    March 25, 2009

    Look at it on the bright side. The next time a tornado or hurricane hits the fundie lands of the south or central USA, everyone who wants to can play xian ghoul and feed on the dead by claiming god hates fundies. There are always some dead people and sometimes a lot.

    I’m too busy. And besides I would rather eat fresh fruits, vegetables, and turkey.

  505. #508 Brownian
    March 25, 2009

    No, we don’t. But don’t let the facts get in the way of a good lie.

    So? Who cares what the fuck you and the rest of those false Christians believe?

    It makes about as much sense to argue how many hit dice a green dragon should have as it would the details of your mythology.

    Brownian, The World’s Only True Christian

  506. #509 Louise Van Court
    March 25, 2009

    I hope no one took my ?comment? @ #429 as taking any pleasure in the car accident that PZ was involved in this morning. While I was searching archives for instances where PZ was in my opinion insensitive to the tragedies and misfortunes of others I was not keeping up with the comments. I was unaware of the car accident until after I had posted. The point of #429 was to point out that it is heartless and mean spirited no matter who uses this tactic on the Internet to score some kind of points.
    I had my own car accident on icy I-25 once and am glad that PZ survived his close call.

  507. #510 Stu
    March 25, 2009

    Was it not human before the brain developed?

    On my personal scale, no. It’s a POTENTIAL human. Sorry, no rights.

    (And can we agree that “pro-lifers” that do not bomb/picket IVF clinics for the millions of potentially viable embryos they toss out every year are disgusting hypocrites — especially when coupled with opposition to embryonic stem-cell research?)

    Because that unquestioning belief in one’s own point of view, that sense of unwavering certainty – that’s what we atheists are know for. Being openminded and able to re-examine our position would only make us like, um, religionists

    But not you, right? You, you are just so above the fray…

    Concern troll is concerned.

  508. #511 Brownian
    March 25, 2009

    Louise Van Court,

    I’m still glad Falwell is dead. It’s the Christian thing to be.

  509. #512 MWSletten
    March 25, 2009

    I too emailed the dipshit site publisher and received the “you must be pro-choice” and “unreported irony” boilerplate. My response:

    You assume much sir. Although my (or anyone else’s) personal opinion about abortion wasn’t the subject of my previous email, I will tell you I find the practice to be abhorrent. Though, unlike you, I’ve accepted the idea in a free society my personal view of morality can’t (and shouldn’t) be applied universally.

    Too, your comparison to Nazis of those who believe their individual rights take precedence over others’ obviously debatable morals is telling. Of course I shouldn’t be surprised that such extreme attitudes exist at an organization willing to publish what you have.

    Since you asked one of me, I have a couple of questions for you: Is the irony you and Ms. Edmonds find in this tragedy “significant” enough to be worth debasing your cause and publication as you have? Have you considered that no other media outlet chose to comment about it because dignity and class are valued higher outside your organization?

    There is no need to repond — I’m sure you recognize rhetoric when you see it. All further correspondence from you or your organization will find it’s way into my “junk” mail folder.

    Good day.

  510. #513 Tulse
    March 25, 2009

    OT, but I had to share the good news that we’re number 3!

    From the article:

    “before time’s dawn, God decided whom he would save (or not), unaffected by any subsequent human action or decision”

    As I have before, I have to ask again — if one genuinely believes this, what is the point of having any religious practices around that belief? If there is literally absolutely nothing you can do to change your fate, why bother to engage in any rituals or services or even congregations? Why should your behaviour differ at all from an atheist’s, since the atheist presumably literally has exactly the same chance of being saved as you do? Indeed, why do you even care that Calvinism is receiving more attention, since that fact itself should matter not one whit in terms of who will be saved?

    This is an honest question — I can understand religions built around the notion of works or faith leading to salvation, since the believers’ actions actually have consequences, but if one believes everything is predestined, what is the point of religion?

  511. #514 FlameDuck
    March 25, 2009

    I’m using it to make a donation to Planned Parenthood in her name.

    Oh, that’s so fucking awesome! I’m gonna go do the same. :)

    Would your response have been the same had Irving ‘Bud’ Feldkamp been the owner of not the nation’s largest privately owned abortion chain but rather the owner of the nation’s largest chain of Nazi like concentration camps used for the purpose of exterminating all those of Jewish ethnicity?

    Is this guy serious? Even if one did have the absurd position that a fetus was a living, breathing, conscious individual, an abortion would be more akin to euthanasia than murder, and certainly not a matter of systematic extermination (like say the holocaust). How can even the most deranged mind link the termination of an unwanted pregnancy, to systematic genocide? They can’t really be that fucking stupid?

    I’m going to have to go with the late Bill Hicks here. If you’re so pro-life, and you’re so pro-child, then adopt one that’s already here, that’s very unwanted and very alone, and needs someone to take care of it, to get it out of a horrible situation.

  512. #515 Sastra
    March 25, 2009

    frog #477 wrote:

    The ideology demands worship of a cruel, sadistic, completely amoral entity. There’s no way around that reality — any God that fits their Bible and ideology must be a moral monster, a raving lunatic, a despotic dictator who feeds on the flesh of children.

    I think you are grossly underestimating people’s ability to rationalize and interpret their religious texts to fit their pre-existing values.

    If you start out with the given that God is loving; if you recognize that the Bible as document was a human product which reflected the views of the times; if you are comfortable with filtering stories in the Bible through poetic metaphor or analogies with similar, less disturbing secular messages; and if you have a rather open understanding of what it means to be “inspired by God” — then the ideology you have “derived” from the Bible can be fairly reasonable and gentle.

    Liberal Christians will often allow that, if you read the Bible “unsympathetically” and look for the worst interpretation — oh sure, you will find it. But they apparently feel that true Christian charity must start with a charitable exegesis. Just as they search for ways to discover that the Bible has no conflicts with science, they search for ways to discover that it doesn’t have any conflicts with humanist ethics, either.

    The problem, of course, is that once you’ve endorsed the value of having faith that God exists, it’s hard to draw lines between good faith, and bad faith. Absent a God which reveals itself clearly, the only real measure is sincerity.

  513. #516 Stu
    March 25, 2009

    Okay, well, people are disgusted that Gingi used this opportunity to make a point – that God will punish those who support abortion (or something similar). And they should be – it was insensitive (and on top of that her beliefs are irrational and freaking crazy).

    You call this ghoulish sociopathic driveling lunacy “insensitive”? Are you fucking serious?

  514. #517 heddle
    March 25, 2009

    Tulse, #513

    It’s a good question. The article (which isn’t that great, but they can’t do justice to any topic in a few paragraphs) hints at the answer.

    Or, from the very first question of the Westminster Shorter Catechism:

    Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?
    A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.

    Both parts of the answer being, I would say, equally important.

  515. #518 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    I’m so relieved to learn that there are no true Christians who think like this about hell, and those who roast for eternity to make a nightlight for those who sleep smugly in heaven.

    From St. Thomas Aquinas, Of the Relations of the Saints Towards the Damned

    It is written (Is. 66:24): “They shall go out and see the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me”; and a gloss says: “The elect will go out by understanding or seeing manifestly, so that they may be urged the more to praise God.”

    I answer that, Nothing should be denied the blessed that belongs to the perfection of their beatitude. Now everything is known the more for being compared with its contrary, because when contraries are placed beside one another they become more conspicuous. Wherefore in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned.

    …But in the future state it will be impossible for them to be taken away from their unhappiness: and consequently it will not be possible to pity their sufferings according to right reason. Therefore the blessed in glory will have no pity on the damned.

    …the saints will rejoice in the punishment of the wicked, by considering therein the order of Divine justice and their own deliverance, which will fill them with joy. And thus the Divine justice and their own deliverance will be the direct cause of the joy of the blessed: while the punishment of the damned will cause it indirectly.

  516. #519 JBlilie
    March 25, 2009

    heddle:

    “JBlilie

    The doctrine of damnation is my second most important reason for rejecting Christianity:

    Well I’m glad you think so.”

    I am glad to bring joy to your day.

  517. #520 Brownian
    March 25, 2009

    This is an honest question — I can understand religions built around the notion of works or faith leading to salvation, since the believers’ actions actually have consequences, but if one believes everything is predestined, what is the point of religion?

    Now you’ve done it. I was doing everything in my power to keep Heddle from reading Module #36 from his DM’s Guide to Campaigning in the Calvinist Plane, but you’ve just asked him to open the floodgates on the physiological differences between hobbits and dwarves.

  518. #521 Amanda
    March 25, 2009

    Stu @#516 “You call this ghoulish sociopathic driveling lunacy “insensitive”? Are you fucking serious?

    No, I wasn’t talking about WHAT she was saying. You were mistaken. What she was saying was stupid, idiotic, disgusting and awful. The manner in which she said it was insensitive.

  519. #522 JHS
    March 25, 2009

    This pretty well encapsulates all the reasons I hate religion. At the end of the day, it’s all ugly, petty, inhumane tripe.

  520. #523 timebender13
    March 25, 2009

    Words cannot describe how evil the author of that article is. Its despicable!

  521. #524 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.

    Both parts of the answer being, I would say, equally important.

    Which is to say, of no importance whatsoever. One may argue every bit as reasonably and with every bit as much relation to reality and one’s future well-being, that the highest goal of any sensible being is to make sure that Frodo and Bilbo always always have more fresh pipeweed than they could possibly smoke. Oh, and smiting anybody who disagrees with me, and gloating when they get what’s coming to them, forever.

  522. #525 heddle
    March 25, 2009

    Brownian,

    Now you’ve done it. I was doing everything in my power to keep Heddle from reading Module #36 from his DM’s Guide to Campaigning in the Calvinist Plane

    Heh. You have the virtue of a good sense of humor. But no, I promise not to go on a Calvinistic rant. Besides–I have to go teach E&M. I’m giving a test on Monday and they need their review. I do have to tell them not to be Calvinistic when it comes to studying the multipole expansion.

  523. #526 guvic
    March 25, 2009

    Glad PZ is OK from this morning’s accident. While reading that article I noticed this one:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2009/03/25/2009-03-25_new_york_palace_hotel_boss_niklaus_leuen.html

    Shouldn’t we have laws like in France against wearing religious symbols at work or school?

    I understand the guy was quite rude with his remarks but that particular ash Wednesday symbol is particularly unnerving. I am a surgeon and I just can’t keep my eyes out of patients foreheads on that day. It really keeps me from concentrating in what I am doing.

  524. #527 Rick T
    March 25, 2009

    heddle, “As for the rest of your comment–didn’t you post the same tome earlier?”

    As if you have offered anything new in,… ever.
    BTW, you still haven’t addressed the question of how you know the original scriptures (autographs) are true if none have ever survived. How can you believe something to be true which doesn’t exist for us to base a judgement on?

    You can continue to ignore this flaw in your ideological construct. I wouldn’t expect you to examine this point too closely as it might provoke too much dissonance for your fragile mind. It might be much easier to continue to throw out the same repetitive crap comments from time to time as you are want to do.

  525. #528 Sastra
    March 25, 2009

    heddle #517 wrote:

    Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?
    A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.

    Q. 2. What is the chief end of God?

  526. #529 Sniper
    March 25, 2009

    Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?
    A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.

    Both parts of the answer being, I would say, equally important.

    Up until the moment god condemns you to suffer for eternity, sweetheart that he is.

    Yet more proof that religion is life- and humananity-denying.

  527. #530 Tulse
    March 25, 2009

    Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.

    But none of that matters to your salvation. God has already decided whether you will be saved regardless of what you do. It makes as much sense to pray and “glorify” god as it does to pray and glorify an asteroid that may be on a path to strike the earth — both will, according to your own beliefs, have exactly as much influence on the outcome. You presume that God has already determined whether you will “enjoy him forever” or not, so what’s the point of religious practice? How is predestination not just a brute fact of the world like gravity?

    (And sorry, Brownian — I also like to poke holes in the logic of D&D spells. Ask me sometime about using a continual darkness spell cast on an object in a tube to produce the incredibly handy device I called a “flashdark”…)

  528. #531 Susan
    March 25, 2009

    Amanda @500

    Perhaps PZ’s post [...] was insensitive as well, simply because it was an opportunity to make a point during a time when people were grieving.

    And perhaps you missed how long after the crash the article about the sentencing of the pilot was posted by PZ:
    Four years.

    The crash occured in 2005. I’m sure the relatives are still grieving, but when do you think that window might close, so PZ can mention the more recent news item without being deemed insensitive?

  529. #532 frog
    March 25, 2009

    Sastra: I think you are grossly underestimating people’s ability to rationalize and interpret their religious texts to fit their pre-existing values.

    That’s why there are good Christian despite their Christianity. There’s no objective way to argue that they’re not grossly distorting their intellectual heritage: the Bible, the church fathers, the scholasts, Calvin and Luther, and so on and so forth. In order to create a facsimile of decency, they have to rationalize away the trivial facts of their religion, like a decent person who happened to be a Stalinist.

    The facts are simple — they have an all-powerful God that creates a world of evil. There are only a couple ways around this: the original Christian (neo-Platonic) position that God wasn’t really all-powerful, that as soon as he “touched” the world, his own failure became apparent (thereby require self-sacrific); or that God is evil; or to handwave about “freedom” without making any sensible definition of freedom; or to simply declare that evil is good (“God is inscrutable, a mystery”).

    The first one was eliminated since orthodox Christianity arose, since it basically makes anykind of “orthodoxy” impossible, since by definition orthodoxy is the failure of creation.

    The second is a recurring theme in the practice of unofficial Christian theodicy, with it’s waves antinomian rebellion and secret rejection of doctrine by inner circles. The third is particularly destructive, since it requires a constant self-delusion that is inevitably corrosive (Liberal Christianity). The last is standard doctrine for most sects — “Slavery is Freedom” — and is a senseless abdication of responsibility for a moral code, which creates the seeds for abdicating morality itself (see Fundamentalism).

    As I said, the core of the doctrine is bad, evil, dirty, destructive and below human dignity. The fact that a decent artist can create a beautiful work with dung doesn’t mean that it’s good to cover one’s walls with feces.

  530. #533 JBlilie
    March 25, 2009

    “Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?”

    From the holy book of pastafarian incantations and oaths:

    “A: To always boil the pasta with veneration and to eat it for the glory of the great FSM [whose name must not be spoken.]

  531. #534 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    Q. 2. What is the chief end of God?

    So far as I can tell, it’s where they stick the nozzle if the universe needs an enema, which means no matter what, if there is a god, humans are hosed.

  532. #535 marais
    March 25, 2009

    Try to e-mail her, but the e-mail bounce back, she must be bombarded by messages.

    “I pray that God will use this unfortunate catastrophe to soften the hearts of Bud and Pam (AND GINGI) and that they/SHE will draw close to the Lord and wash their/HER hands of the blood of thousands of innocent children/(FELDKAMP’S INNOCENT CHILDREN) each as precious and irreplaceable as their own.”

    Dear Gingi

    I think you need to pray for yourself. You have lost track of what Christianity is “suppose” to be all about. Try to love and forgive first (God’s main message) and then be a politician if you must, not the other way around.

  533. #536 Stu
    March 25, 2009

    Amanda,

    No, I wasn’t talking about WHAT she was saying.

    Phew.

    The manner in which she said it was insensitive.

    Considering WHAT she was saying, who cares about the HOW? I mean, really

  534. #537 Rilke's Granddaughter
    March 25, 2009

    Apparently Gingi has been getting lots of mail. Her emailbox is full. A pity. I have also arranged to donate money to Planned Parenthood in her name.

    I thought the Christian idea was to rejoice in your OWN sufferings, not the sufferings of others. Apparently she didn’t get the memo.

  535. #538 uppity cracka
    March 25, 2009

    After reading heddle’s blog, I can only say that heddle is a lunatic.

    Brownian is my new hero.

  536. #539 Brownian
    March 25, 2009

    You have the virtue of a good sense of humor.

    As the world’s only True Christian, I hate to inform you that, despite Calvin’s claim that nowhere does the Bible forbid laughter, a sense of humour is not a virtue.

  537. #540 uppity cracka
    March 25, 2009

    As the world’s only true christian, I can only assume that everything you say is true, sir.

  538. #541 The Biologista
    March 25, 2009

    Wow, so that’s what a pious smirk looks like in text form. Disgusting.

  539. #542 Stu
    March 25, 2009

    After reading heddle’s blog, I can only say that heddle is a lunatic.

    Almost, but not quite. That’s the scary part.

  540. #543 JBlilie
    March 25, 2009

    Not only is she nasty and deluded: She’s an idiot as well. The article shows ignorance and a complete ack of research:

    “The plane, a single-engine turboprop flown by Bud Summerfield of Highland, crashed into the Catholic cemetery and burst into flames, only 500 ft. from its landing destination.”

    Butte was not the intended destination, Bozeman was.

    The cause of the crash is a mystery. The pilot, who was a former military flier who logged over 2,000 miles, gave no indication to air traffic controllers that the aircraft was experiencing difficulty when he asked to divert to an airport in Butte.”

    Pilots do not log miles, they log hours.

    “Some speculate that the crash was due to ice on the wings, but this particular plane model has been tested for icy weather and experts have stated that ice being the cause is unlikely.”

    All airplanes that are certified to fly in icing conditions are tested for icing. They regularly crash due to icing anyway. Icing is always a likely cause when icing conditions exist. In particular when the pilot does not report an emergency.

    These brilliant quotes come for just a couple of paragraphs. Not that any of this is a surprise. There’s nothing about airplane design or certification or pilot procedures in the Bible.

    http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/646579835.html

  541. #544 MikeM
    March 25, 2009

    Yesterday, people called Gary McCullough shameless. Today, however, we have changed our minds and decided he’s just an asshole.

    Sometimes we just need to rethink things.

    Gary McCullough, you’re dancing on people’s graves. Is this what your Jesus meant when he said to turn the other cheek? Really, this is how you interpret things? Hmmm. Glad I left the religion. Feels better every day.

    (In reference to this comment).

  542. #545 Janis Chambers
    March 25, 2009

    I was about 8 when I realized that inXanity was utterly empty of humanity. Everyone who belonged to my church passed around rumors and secrets like a dead rabbit between wolves. Religion really is the lifestyle of the delusional and sociopath.

  543. #546 RG
    March 25, 2009

    I don’t get it. These people want me to believe.. Well if their God is real and does this, FUCK HIM! He doesn’t get the honor of me worshiping him.

  544. #547 JBlilie
    March 25, 2009

    Check this out!

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2009/03/25/2009-03-25_new_york_palace_hotel_boss_niklaus_leuen.html

    Thou shalt not criticize religion. Your job is on the line …

  545. #548 Brownian
    March 25, 2009

    As the world’s only true christian, I can only assume that everything you say is true, sir.

    Well, let’s not go off all half-cracked, Uppity. While you may safely assume that, as the world’s only True Christian, whatever I say about the nature of True Christianity is more true than anything anyone else says about it (unless they’re agreeing with me, I am certainly fallible in other areas of knowledge. Further, it should be noted that I remain an atheist, as True Christianity doesn’t actually require belief in a deity. You and everyone else would know this if you only opened your hearts, though I recognise that this is difficult for most, not least due to the difficulty in acquiring rib spreaders and steady sources of lactated Ringer’s.

  546. #549 Janis Chambers
    March 25, 2009

    “you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you”. (Ezekiel 35:6) –

    The quote in the catholic “Abortion section” in the graveyard, I wonder if they have a section for all the children killed in the biblical tale of Jerico? How about all the girls captured and raped by the edict of god?

    One of the most horrid things about inXanity is their biblical multiple personality disorders.

  547. #550 Maargen
    March 25, 2009

    To Bill Dauphin@455:

    I think the fact that religionists feel they have no choice but to obey the laws of the land is one instance where they make sense. I really don’t believe that killing people who don’t ascribe to one’s own view of morality is the right thing to do, even if they’re Nazis. Slaves were routinely killed (ok, maybe not “routinely”, but if one was beaten to death then “oops”. After all, it was your own property. Exodus 21:21), but I really can’t see that it would have been right for abolitionists to kill these slaveowners in cold blood. There’s a reason there are laws against vigilantism.

    Also, inconsistency with their own beliefs are one thing religionists are pretty consistent about (I say religionists because they’re all – observant jews, christians, muslems, etc. – more similar than alike, and all pretty batty). Once you start off with the imaginary friend, can the end result of the thought process make much sense?

    I guess my larger point is that too many people, from both the pro-choice and anti-choice position, see abortion as a religious issue. I think it can and should be discussed as an ethical one, but it isn’t – partly because of the baggage of the mysogynisitic, sexually-obsessed prudery of the anti-choice camp. I try not to react to abortion questions from my dislike of the anti-choice messenger, but from the point of view of respect for the life of the women and children(?) involved. Meanwhile it’s pro-choice, liberal organizations (and administrations) that do more to make fewer abortions necessary – another proof that ethics without religion is so much better than “religious morality”.

  548. #551 Iris
    March 25, 2009

    “We warned him…” ?

    Gee, should somebody be investigating this crash as sabotage?

  549. #552 frog
    March 25, 2009

    RG: I don’t get it. These people want me to believe.. Well if their God is real and does this, FUCK HIM! He doesn’t get the honor of me worshiping him.

    I don’t see how you can have any other response, if you’re both decent and honest. That’s the crux — Christianity keeps you from being both simultaneously.

  550. #553 JBlilie
    March 25, 2009

    “Once you start off with the imaginary friend, can the end result of the thought process make much sense?”

    Of course not. Magic explains nothing. In fact it prevents explanation. If magic is invoked, then any effect can equally well be asserted to follow any cause and the rules of logic and evidence fail, by necessity. Nothing can be learned, no conclusions can be draw. Which explains the “results” of ID “science” …

  551. #554 JBlilie
    March 25, 2009

    heddle:

    I’m disappointed: You haven’t called bullshit on Thomas Aquinas @518.

  552. #555 uppity cracka
    March 25, 2009

    Brownian-
    As a former “christian” (I use quotes because I now see that my former christianity was but a hollow bastardization of your true christianity) I am fascinated by your miraculous appointment from God Almighty to have your heart used as the holy hiding place of the ultimate truth. We should start a cult. We could get soooooo much ‘tang.

  553. #556 kryptonic
    March 25, 2009

    SimoN at #249?
    What a disgusting pile of crap you prove yourself to be with each post. Why are you still here, you little weasel? Don’t you get that no one wants to read your mindless, moronic ravings!

    PZ is OK?

    Saxon and Gingi. When can we expect to see you and your fellow pro-fetus sign- and aborted fetus jar-wielding zombies in front of the Feldkamp’s home again? Don’t wait! You have to strike now or you are going to seem like a couple of cowards and anti-choice pro-life lightweights. You can also show your concern for the unborn by sending your crew to protest at the cemetery too! If you pass up on these protest opportunities, then the darwinist, baby-eating, satan’s taint-licking, faggot, commie, pharyngula-posting, terrorist-coddling, masturabator atheists win. Remember, “abortion stops a beating heart!”

  554. #557 Kraid
    March 25, 2009

    Not sure if this will get read this far in (or maybe someone has already pointed this out and I missed it), but Christian Newswire has a new article today, specifically in response to all of your responses.

    Dead Children Bring out the Worst in Us (what a title).

    Wondering about its contents? Here’s a hint: more benighted, smirking, sanctimonious bullshit.

  555. #558 Kraid
    March 25, 2009

    My bad, the correct title is Dead Children Expose the Worst in Us. Whatever. To-MAY-to, To-MAH-to, BULL-shit, BOOL-shit, etc.

  556. #559 robhoofd
    March 25, 2009

    I tried to sent an email but got a failure notice.

    Ms. Edmonds,

    While I?d usually start any email I?d send to a perfect stranger on a light and polite note, I feel you?ve lost any right to decent treatment by anyone by being the vile, senseless, pathetic, immoral bitch you?ve shown yourself to be in your article on the recent plaincrash, which killed fourteen people.

    How could you possibly get it into your head as appropriate to first point your cold, dead finger at Irving Feldkamp and tell us all that God killed his children as retribution for his medical career, and then, in the same sentence declare that you?re not saying ?I told you so?? How is it that if you?re the moral one, the pious one, the sensible, good-hearted, sympathetic christian, if it is you, not the evil abortionist but you, who is standing in the rubble laughing at all the heart-broken parents? Are you just trying to be insensitive to get publicity, or are your slimy offensiveness and utter lack of morals sincere?

    If there is a God, and you represent him, I?d rather burn in Hell until the end of times than spend a single minute in heaven with the likes of you.

    Disgusted and appalled,

    Robbert Folmer

  557. #560 robhoofd
    March 25, 2009

    ^ blockquote malfunction ^

  558. #561 mas528
    March 25, 2009

    I am disgusted by anybody that says ‘well, I am a christian, and I don’t agree with what she is saying.’

    Why are you posting on an atheist blog to say you disagree with her? Why do you not send a letter to the Christ-stain Newswire? Then you could tell us that you don’t agree with them and I’ll believe you.

    Or maybe you can start a blog to go against these scumbags, you can post a link here to us just how many of your readers disagree with people like Edwards, McCullough, Dobson.

    Until then, you will are guilty by association by associating with the same group as Edwards and McCullough.

    The atheists loudly and vociferously disagree with other atheists all the time, mostly because they are not a herd.

    A few examples:

    Nat Hentoff abortion disagrees about abortion and death with dignity in his column.

    Christopher Hitchens on the Iraq II, he (and others)loudly support.

    There are some examples of this on the comments on PZ’s blog.

  559. #562 heddle
    March 25, 2009

    JBLilie,

    I’m disappointed: You haven’t called bullshit on Thomas Aquinas @518.

    That’s because it is irrelevant. Susan and Endor (and maybe others) were spreading the nonsense that living Christians take pleasure in contemplating the eternal torment of unbelievers, say like PZ. We don’t. Aquinas is talking about the fact that in heaven we will have no pity and no sorrow over the lost, and will view it as just. Apples and oranges.

    Most Christians will say this about Aquinas’ point–for it is one that comes up fairly often: we understand theoretically that we will not be sad in heaven, but we cannot comprehend it this side of glory. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard a Christian say: “I don’t see how I’ll be happy in heaven when considering those who aren’t there.”

    Personally I am in a minority-I think we will be sad at times. The fact that God will wipe away our tears means, to me, that we have been crying. But that’s just a guess.

    Tulse,

    But none of that matters to your salvation.

    Exactly! Welcome to Calvinism. We do all the churchy stuff because we like it, not because it will save us.

  560. #563 Sniper
    March 25, 2009

    The weirdest thing about heddle is that he really, truly doesn’t seem to realize how cruel and insane he sounds. Wow.

  561. #564 Uerba
    March 25, 2009

    As someone who does believe in God, I am absolutley apalled by the sheer iniquity of this cruel and heartless woman. If indeed she does want to get more people to see the love and grace of her deity and religious kin, making it seem bloodthirsty and vile is NOT a step in the right direction. Not that I wish it on her person, but if something this horrible ever happens to her, perhaps it’ll be her “comeuppance” for this truly discraceful behavior.

  562. #565 'Tis Himself
    March 25, 2009

    heddle #562

    Susan and Endor (and maybe others) were spreading the nonsense that living Christians take pleasure in contemplating the eternal torment of unbelievers, say like PZ. We don’t. Aquinas is talking about the fact that in heaven we will have no pity and no sorrow over the lost, and will view it as just. Apples and oranges.

    You personally may not take pleasure in the endless torments awaiting unbelievers and sinners. However I can assure you, from personal knowledge, that there are some of your fellow Christians who are eagerly and anxiously awaiting being seated in the dress circle of Hell and watching the suffering of the damned. Which is not surprising, considering how sadistic your god shows itself to be.

  563. #566 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    Aquinas is talking about the fact that in heaven we will have no pity and no sorrow over the lost, and will view it as just. Apples and oranges.

    Most Christians will say this about Aquinas’ point–for it is one that comes up fairly often: we understand theoretically that we will not be sad in heaven, but we cannot comprehend it this side of glory.

    This is why I drive defensively, because I have to share the road with people who are even more crazy than heddle, and heddle is crazier than a shithouse rat.

  564. #567 E.V.
    March 25, 2009

    I don’t mean to slight anyone, but if Sastra does not write a book, there is no G… – wait a minute…

    Heddle: a little hint; you won’t be aware of any sorry nor crying, neither shall you feel anymore pain because you will have no brain activity. (Cue obvious snarky rejoinder)

  565. #568 C. M. Baxter
    March 25, 2009

    Uerba, see post #561.

  566. #569 Bill Dauphin
    March 25, 2009

    Maargen:

    I grok that we have some broad areas of agreement. Since debate is more entertaining than agreement, though…

    I think the fact that religionists feel they have no choice but to obey the laws of the land is one instance where they make sense.

    Resistance fighters throughout Nazi-occupied Europe routinely broke “the law of the land” (and I suspect they killed Nazis whenever they could). Abolitionists in pre-Emancipation America routinely broke “the law of the land” (if not by killing slaveholders, then by giving aid and comfort to runaway and escaped slaves). Throughout human history there have been times when a powerful moral imperative has trumped established law; one would think the systematic and ongoing slaughter of innocent babies would be such an occasion… if anyone actually believed that was what was going on.

    I’m normally quick (too quick, according to some of my friends on the left) to embrace a pragmatic compromise position, but it doesn’t seem to me that any such position is possible WRT to “pro-life” opposition to abortion: The only even arguably defensible justification for forcing a woman to continue an unwanted or dangerous pregnancy is the assertion that the fetus is a person with full rights. If that’s not so (as I believe to be the case), then there’s no justification for invasive meddling in an individual’s reproductive choices… but if it is so (as pro-lifers claim to believe), there’s really no possible justification for half-measures such as trivial restrictions/sentences or rape-and-incest exceptions.

    The fact that pro-life advocacy is so out of sync with pro-life rhetoric (by which I mean the solutions they seek, and the fervor with which they seek them, do not match the harm they claim to believe in) suggests to me that they don’t believe what they say they believe, and instead oppose abortion for some other, unspoken, reason.

    As I’ve said before, I believe that reason is that they want to control sexual expression and generally discourage the enjoyment of sex, because that, along with other earthly pleasures, tends to distract people from the imaginary god they’re committed to promoting. This, BTW, explains why “pro-lifers” are more likely to align politically with opponents of contraception, pornography, and gay rights than they are with opponents of the death penalty, genocide, and world hunger and disease (which is to say, real pro-life positions).

    I guess my larger point is that too many people, from both the pro-choice and anti-choice position, see abortion as a religious issue.

    I don’t think it’s that simple: I think the anti-abortion position is a religious issue, but (as I’ve just described) not the same religious issue pro-lifers claim it is; I think the pro-choice position is a human rights issue, not necessarily connected with religion in any way other than through the identity of its antagonists.

  567. #570 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    Heddle is clearly not trying to persuade anybody when he tries to defend his position by reassuring us that people in heaven will turn into people who will somehow no longer have to experience empathy, who won’t be bothered by the miraculous perpetual torture of fellow human beings, and who refer to such a state as “glory.”

    Heddle here sounds as reassuring as Coraline’s Other Mother (in Neil Gaiman’s book and its animated adaptation), reassuring her that she’ll be so happy when Coraline lets her replace her real eyes with black, sewn-on button eyes. Any child can recognize such wrongness, but heddle is cheerfully looking forward to being an animated corpse with any moral qualms scooped out of his brain, concerned only for the happiness of the monster he wants the rest of us to swoon over.

  568. #571 heddle
    March 25, 2009

    TisHimself,

    However I can assure you, from personal knowledge, that there are some of your fellow Christians who are eagerly and anxiously awaiting being seated in the dress circle of Hell and watching the suffering of the damned. Which is not surprising, considering how sadistic your god shows itself to be.

    Yes of course, because everyone on here is personally acquainted with the craziest Christians who actually comprise the majority. In fact, it’s why they left the faith! One day their pastor preached against the evils of miscegenation, or evilution, or fags and Sodomites, or the Whore O’ Babylon, or libruls, or MTV, or hellfire, or the gubment schools, or pointy headed godless scientists, or vegans and environmentalists, or illegal immigrants, or about how the negroes were happy when they were slaves–and they got up and walked right out of that church never to return again. Yes sir. You all surely have us pegged. No stereotypes here, nosiree.

  569. #572 Wowbagger, OM
    March 25, 2009

    The weirdest thing about heddle is that he really, truly doesn’t seem to realize how cruel and insane he sounds.

    No, I think he’s fully aware of how cruel and insane he sounds – he just believes that the pleasure he gets from expressing himself in such a way isn’t the result of insane cruelty; rather, he sees it as righteous piety.

    Such is the gift of religion.

  570. #573 Marcus Ranum
    March 25, 2009

    Sastra asks:
    2. What is the chief end of God?

    It’s the part we’re supposed to kiss, eternally.

  571. #574 astrounit
    March 25, 2009

    heddle #517 proclaims:

    “Q. 1. What is the chief end of man? A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever. Both parts of the answer being, I would say, equally important.”

    You don’t even understand the inconsistency between your use of the words “end” and “forever”.

    Together with your estimation of what constitutes “importance” your statement rates you as an imbecile.

  572. #575 SueinNM
    March 25, 2009

    I don’t know if any of you are aware, or if it’s already been mentioned, that dear Gingi has a facebook page with a photo. The little twerp is 23 years old … she REALLY knows about life, doesn’t she?

  573. #576 Knockgoats
    March 25, 2009

    heddle,
    You yourself, in your shameless worship of infinite evil, are a far more disgusting example of the dark side of Christianity than any of the preachers you describe@571.

  574. #577 Janine, Insulting Sinner
    March 25, 2009

    Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?

    A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.

    Both parts of the answer being, I would say, equally important.

    For the big sky daddy is so insecure, he needs eternal sycophants. As for the second part, that is not a state of existence, it is not being alive; it is being reduced to an emotion.

    I would rather have the reason for humanity as explained in Vonnegut’s The Sirens Of Titan.

  575. #578 heddle
    March 25, 2009

    astrounit,

    You don’t even understand the inconsistency between your use of the words “end” and “forever”.
    Together with your estimation of what constitutes “importance” your statement rates you as an imbecile.

    Um,

    1) I didn’t write it, it was written the 1640′s by the Westminster divines. Say what you want about them, but they were the educated elite of that era, and the boys knew how to write.

    2) There is no inconsistency between their use of the words man’s chief end (purpose) and the fact that he would be engaging in said activity forever. None.

    3) That kind of makes you the imbecile, I’m afraid.

    Knockgoats,

    [Heddle,] You yourself, in your shameless worship of infinite evil, are a far more disgusting example of the dark side of Christianity than any of the preachers you describe@571.

    Really, Wow. Whodathunkit?

  576. #579 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    I quite agree Janine, just think of the fate of that poor little robot, stranded and waiting for a missing part on a frozen methane beach, watching the waves on an ethane ocean. We’ll know our lives had purpose when that little guy gets repaired.

    Heddle’s god sounds as mature as the Billy Mumy character who got an ugly look in his eyes when anybody forgot to say how good, how good it was for him to have wished so and so into the cornfield.

  577. #580 Uerba
    March 25, 2009

    C.M. Baxter, this is a Scienceblog(tm) that happens to be maintained by an atheist, not an “atheist blog”. I’ve been in debates with belligerently fundamentalist believers, and if that’s taught me anything, it’s that no matter how much reason you use or evidence you present, nothing will change thier minds. We’re not talking a reasonable person here, but a pious “Christian” who cares about little more than being right, so I can write my letters or email her, and it’s going to be seen by blind eyes, IF it’s seen at all. I’m not trying to covert anyone, and I’ve been following this blog for a while. Just chill out, man.

  578. #581 Holydust
    March 25, 2009

    To everyone bitching “did any of you read the article? She didn’t mean what you think she meant!”:

    Perhaps it might be inferred that we assume too much.

    However, Gingi’s behavior in her replies to e-mails has very much proven that the assumptions about the purpose of the article were spot-on. She has mentioned “the American holocaust of children” in almost every reply.

    Do you really want to try to convince me that the article wasn’t a “told you so” finger-wagging on the issue of abortion?

    Really?

    Then we have nothing to talk about, because you have blinders on.

  579. #582 Brownian
    March 25, 2009

    Heddle,

    Whether you and those you agree with or those who you disagree with are in the majority is not the issue. Neither revelation nor democracy decide the truth of your religious claims or those of any other. Stereotypes or not, the point stands: neither Christianity nor religion in general encourage or enforce any sort of objective morality other than allegiance to authority. No matter your expertise in Calvinistic theology, you must recognise that the only argument you can make with any conviction is that at least you and some set of those who self-describe as Christians don’t act in the manner PZ and others describe. But in the end, if God exists and Christianity is true and belief vs. non-belief have any bearing on our lives in the here and now whatsoever, we could at least expect to see much more consistency among the beliefs of Christians than of Muslims, Hindus, atheists, Dogonists, or neo-Aztecs. We don’t. This is the very reason why the No True Scotsman Fallacy is so problematic, at least for those who believe in a God that wants people to be saved.

    As a predestinationist, I suspect this means little to you. You believe because God willed you to, and that’s good enough for you. But as a predestinationist, I’m often surprised at your lack of understanding as to why your arguments as to the nature and truth value of your version of Christianity are so unconvincing to the majority of us here.

  580. #583 phantomreader42
    March 25, 2009

    Uerba @ #564:

    As someone who does believe in God, I am absolutley apalled by the sheer iniquity of this cruel and heartless woman.

    Then fucking do something about it. Tell those asshats dancing on the graves of children what a horrible example they’re setting. Don’t tell us. Tell THEM, to their vile fucking faces. And tell their sponsors too. Tell the media outlets that these vultures get their money from that you, as a christian, denounce this evil, and will not tolerate it. Cut off every fucking penny to your church until your pastor publicly denounces the use of such tragedies to spread hate in the name of jebus. Make it clear to the entire congregation what monstrous bastards these people are, and get THEM to do something about it. If you don’t like what the kind of hateful sons of bitches who pass for christian leaders in this country do in your name, make yourself heard, and get some better fucking leaders. As long as people of faith like yourself tolerate this, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!

  581. #584 Wowbagger, OM
    March 25, 2009

    Brownian asked (of heddle):

    But as a predestinationist, I’m often surprised at your lack of understanding as to why your arguments as to the nature and truth value of your version of Christianity are so unconvincing to the majority of us here.

    I think the bigger question is why heddle argues, since part of the idea of the predestination he believes in is the concept of unconditional election – that his god decides whether or not you believe. If you don’t believe it’s because god doesn’t want you to.

    But if faith in his god can only be granted by an act of said god, we can’t choose to be Christians. So, heddle shouldn’t be asking us to believe in his god; he should be asking his god to believe in us.

    I guess he doesn’t have as much faith as he claims.

  582. #585 Uerba
    March 25, 2009

    phantomreader42, dude, chill out! Did you even read my reply? I can email her, her sponsors, and her kin all I want, but pious ears are deaf, and pious eyes are blind; IT WON’T MATTER. I don’t tolerate this disgraceful behavior, and I don’t belong to a church, OR religion.
    By the way, fear not; I may be a believer, but I’m not here to convert\condemn anyone, or spam the blog. I’ve been following this blog for a while, and as a biology student in college, I find it has its uses.

  583. #586 MickyW
    March 25, 2009

    Heddle; It’s in Calvinism that Christianty loses it completely.

    Get your bible out boy; mine’s bigger! And I recognise it for what it really is: something to get fucked over with.

  584. #587 astrounit
    March 25, 2009

    SueinNM #575 reveals, “The little twerp [Gingi] is 23 years old … she REALLY knows about life, doesn’t she?”

    Very interesting. Now we know more. Obviously she’s gotten the bulk of her “life experience” from what’s been drummed into her very little head.

    What gets drummed in also removes: like any natural and authentic sense of compassion that would at the very least recognize IMMEDIATELY that there is a gigantic chasm between fretting over embryos without any brains to feel any discomfort, let alone an awareness of being alive, and 7 kids (according to the account I read) aged 2 through 8, as well as 7 adults. Add a little flair for writing (and, no doubt, a thick dose of encouragement from her Christian Newswire “handlers”, who of course never bothered in the slightest to moderate her message of utter contempt and hatred of completely inocent men, women and children) and we are confronted by that transitionary creature between a “brat” and a “bitch”.

    This is the kind of monster that religion nurtures.

  585. #588 Brownian
    March 25, 2009

    But if faith in his god can only be granted by an act of said god, we can’t choose to be Christians. So, heddle shouldn’t be asking us to believe in his god; he should be asking his god to believe in us.

    Calvinism: Blaming God for Atheists Since 1536.

  586. #589 Sastra
    March 25, 2009

    heddle #578 wrote:

    2) There is no inconsistency between their use of the words man’s chief end (purpose) and the fact that he would be engaging in said activity forever. None.

    I think the inconsistency might be that, when they ask “what is the chief end of Man?” — their answer does not include the damned (“vessels made for destruction”) as part of “Man.”

  587. #590 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    Heddle is not a more disgusting example of the dark side of Christianity than any of the preachers he described @571. He’s merely an example of how crazy you’d have to be to think that his faith has any attraction to people who aren’t insane.

    When heddle wrote about …the fact that in heaven we will have no pity and no sorrow over the lost, and will view it as just, he’s such a complete sociopath that he can’t imagine our disgust at the way he looks forward to experiencing a hollow space where a human heart would be in heddle heaven.

    Heddle is a perfect specimen of what PZ was writing about when he titled his post, “a heartless faith.” Heddle distinguishes between heartlessness, and the glory of blessed post-death heartlessness bestowed by a cosmic monster who’ll scoop your heart out so you won’t have to care about suffering. At least heddle’s not an atheist, even he has to draw the line somewhere.

  588. #591 Brownian
    March 25, 2009

    Whatever. I’m actually totally cool with non-proselytising religions.

  589. #592 heddle
    March 25, 2009

    Brownian,

    we could at least expect to see much more consistency among the beliefs of Christians than of Muslims, Hindus, atheists, Dogonists, or neo-Aztecs.

    But many atheists say, do they not, that morality does not come from God and that Christianity in fact is an impediment. That means that they, in effect, should have a better track record than Christians.

    I am not going to claim a scorecard. The point is that you ask a fair question, if I understand you: why aren?t Christians better models of moral living? The question is fair because we make the claim that morality comes from our God.

    But, as I pointed out, atheists also make claims about morality that would predict a better grade if for no other reason than Christians will lower the average.

    Again, I won?t try to tally score?but I will say that I see no evidence that atheists behave better than Christians. In this post we have the example of the Christian gal writing an insensitive and self-serving article. We also have a few people calling for such things Simon?s death by fire?and other incredibly vile posts concerning this woman?things that go way beyond pointing out legitimate concerns over what she wrote. Personally, I?d call it a wash.

    Furthermore Christians have the concept of the visible and invisible church. There is really no way of assessing whether the invisible church has a better track record than the visible?but the possibility is open.

    I’m often surprised at your lack of understanding as to why your arguments as to the nature and truth value of your version of Christianity are so unconvincing to the majority of us here.

    Why would you be surprised? I suffer no such lack of understanding?rather I expect to be unconvincing.

  590. #593 heddle
    March 25, 2009

    Wobagger, OM,

    So, heddle shouldn’t be asking us to believe in his god; he should be asking his god to believe in us.

    I do. (Well, not believe, but close enough.)

  591. #594 FlameDuck
    March 25, 2009

    Thou shalt not criticize religion. Your job is on the line …

    I especialy like how their pointless poll doesn’t have an “Niklaus Leuenberger is my new hero!” option. I think its inappropriate that people who work at a luxury hotel, run around with filth on their foreheads.

  592. #595 JamesR
    March 25, 2009

    I read the whole article and contrary to her saying it isn’t an “I told you so” It really is. The entire article underscores the exact statement intending to be an “I Told You So”. Why bring up the issue of abortion at all if it was really a virtuos condolences at this terrible tragedy.

    Saxon
    We do know how christians believe and feel. Most of us feel the very same way when we hear of such a tragedy. It takes the wind out of us and we feel stunned at the terrible loss that any man or woman must feel. However we accept that this is all there is for those who have died and there is no afterlife. Which makes life to us even more precious than someone like you can believe.

    We also know what you believe and we just disagree. And you will never acknowledge that. We know what you believe because you keep telling us and forcing us to defend our rights to be free from your beliefs. Also note that while you are groveling on the ground on both knees we have chosen to stand up be counted among those who have chosen true freedom in all its aspects.

    And thanks for taking the time to comment.

    simoN
    fuck ofF

  593. #596 windy
    March 25, 2009

    Aquinas is talking about the fact that in heaven we will have no pity and no sorrow over the lost, and will view it as just.

    “But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.”

  594. #597 Brownian
    March 25, 2009

    Personally, I?d call it a wash.

    Me too. I hate the scorecard approach, but I will say that there are many Abrahamic theologies that claim religion is either necessary, sufficient, or both for morality. Yours apparently doesn’t, so I see why you’d fail to appreciate why so many atheists point out examples of non-ethical or non-moral behaviour among theists.

    As for why some atheists would make such a claim, I’d suggest that, at least among the more thoughtful ones, it’s a sloppy shorthand. Humanists who adhere to humanist principles should avoid dehumanising behaviours more so that theists whose theologies are dehumanising, but atheism itself should make no such claims about behaviour. The two are often conflated as many atheists claim humanism as an ethical stance, but the two are by no means synonymous.

    I’m sorry I can’t continue this, but I’m going to watch Watchmen with some friends.

  595. #598 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    So, heddle shouldn’t be asking us to believe in his god; he should be asking his god to believe in us.

    I do. (Well, not believe, but close enough.)

    Like this?

    Oh Lord please don’t burn us
    don’t kill or toast your flock
    Don’t put us on the barbecue
    or simmer us in stock,
    Don’t bake or baste or boil us
    or stir-fry us in a wok.

    Oh, please don’t lightly poach us
    Or baste us with hot fat.
    Don’t fricassee or roast us
    Or boil us in a vat,
    And please don’t stick thy servants, Lord,
    In a Rotissomat

    Once heddle goes to heaven, he expects to be asking God to pass the long pork, please. It’s only while he’s stuck in mortal mode with us hell-bound atheists that he tries to be perceived as having something resembling a conscience and compassion. Passing for nearly normal is a survival skill, after all.

  596. #599 Janine, Insulting Sinner
    March 25, 2009

    #593 Using that as your moniker is an asshole move.

  597. #600 Wowbagger, OM
    March 25, 2009

    Brownian wrote:
    Calvinism: Blaming God for Atheists Since 1536.

    Oooh, I know what I’m asking for on my next trip to the custom t-shirt store…

    heddle wrote:

    But many atheists say, do they not, that morality does not come from God and that Christianity in fact is an impediment. That means that they, in effect, should have a better track record than Christians.

    I agree that that’s a pretty silly claim, in and of itself – and nigh on impossible to verify.

  598. #601 Brownian
    March 25, 2009

    Okay, explain why Alaric Skatje Conlann, who links to a Christian site, feels the need to impersonate PZ’s children?

    Again, poor quality control on the part of God. Doesn’t he ask for at least a shred of integrity from his followers?

    Thanks, ASC, for another reminder of the wholesale assholism that comes with your political and religious convictions.

  599. #602 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    Thanks, ASC, for another reminder of the wholesale assholism that comes with your political and religious convictions.

    It’s not just an asshole move to name PZ’s children along with a link, it reads like a death threat. The FBI doesn’t take kindly to such behavior, now matter how Christian it may be.

  600. #603 Jeanette
    March 25, 2009

    The idea that fetuses are equivalent to children is a faulty premise, but for those who use that as a starting point for their reasoning, wouldn’t the tragedy demonstrate the opposite of what they’re claiming? I mean, if you think that a fetus is a child and that you can ascertain their evil god’s wishes from this incident, he apparently wants all of the little children to be dead and buried in the abortion cemetery. God’s not condemning abortions; he’s complaining that there haven’t been enough of them.

  601. #604 frog
    March 25, 2009

    we understand theoretically that we will not be sad in heaven, but we cannot comprehend it this side of glory

    As I said, define evil as good, and call it a day.

  602. #605 AnthonyK
    March 25, 2009

    Furthermore Christians have the concept of the visible and invisible church.

    How lovely for them!
    But tell me – which one of them is full of hatefilled morons? It must be the invisible one…mustn’t it?

  603. #606 astrounit
    March 25, 2009

    To heddle #578:

    Ah, but a “PURPOSE”, a “GOAL”, a PRECONCIEVED whether strived for or acheived, is an END to the “quest”. There’s no QUESTING involved at all when one is already convinced of the “answer”. You puke forth your falsehoods and expect everybody to be wowed by your tremendous powers of ignorance. People who already have there own sense of what constitutes importance and sincerity don’t like getting vomited on by rank imbeciles.

    When you display the audacity of an imbecile, if you can’t get it through your impenetrably thick imbecile skull that there are people who have thought all of this stuff through thoroughly and have far surpassed your imbecilically dull and static views, when you actually make statements that easily demonstrates your imbecility, it doesn’t surprise me an iota that you cast that label back on those who see right through your sorry imbecilic ass.

    You are a consummate imbecile of the first order. It’s quite obvious that “God” ordained it. You just don’t get it. Imbeciles don’t get it. Everybody with an ounce of brains here knows it. You don’t. You must be an imbecile.

  604. #607 Wowbagger, OM
    March 25, 2009

    If Christians would just openly admit that the being they worshipped and revered is a vile, vengeful, human-hating monster then I might begin to respect them.

    But these pathetic attempts to rationalise that an all-powerful, benevolent god would strike down the innocent in order to punish the (perceived) guilty illustrates just how much they must be either lying to themselves or dead inside whenever they ‘praise’ their sick ‘lord’.

    If their god doesn’t like abortions, why doesn’t he just make people unable to perform them?

  605. #608 frog
    March 25, 2009

    Wowbagger: I agree that that’s a pretty silly claim, in and of itself – and nigh on impossible to verify.

    So off the mark, it’s not even wrong.

    Culture (morality) isn’t a scientific discipline, subject to Popperian verification. It’s inherently subjective, and thereby subject to the standards of the arts.

    Trying to fit everything into the same box is insane. If we judge an ideology, we can not primarily look at some mythical “track record”, as if a culture were a statistically analyzable series of experiments, any more than you would judge a book by it’s “track record”. You have to critically analyze it like a sculpture, a painting, choreography, prose, poetry, and such.

    Under those conditions, you can come up to a critical appraisal that the structure of Christian morality is fuggin ugly, ill-conceived, lacks grace or realism, and is a modern hack on a medieval hack on an Imperial hack, on a set of Roman and Middle-Eastern hacks, on a Greek hack on a whole series of Iron Age hacks; as if someone had tried some kind of postmodern integration of random paragraphs, tied together by a celebration of death and suffering.

    You don’t have to ask the question about whether “Christians” or “Humanists” have a better track record — you have to ask whether Christianity as a body of literature celebrates ugliness and evil.

    I don’t need to ask whether, sociologically speaking, those who watch child-porn are more or less likely to commit pedophiliac crimes in order to reject child-porn as a blot and a stain, and personally judge those who indulge. Sociological research may be interesting to answer the question of what our legal response should be; but no one is suggesting some kind of legal censuring of Christianity is necessary — we can morally censure purely on the basis of the structured, concensus subjective reality of the art form.

  606. #609 astrounit
    March 25, 2009

    Wowbagger, OM #584: THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT. OUTSTANDING!

  607. #610 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    My conception of heddle in heaven: “Th-th-th-that’s all, Ethel!

  608. #611 Rebelest
    March 25, 2009

    I think that Gingi’s mother, who posted as Saxon, has an email address on the donation page of Gingi’s website:

    http://tinyurl.com/c5xcru

  609. #612 Carlie
    March 25, 2009

    Windy at #597 reminded me of this one:

    Aquinas is talking about the fact that in heaven we will have no pity and no sorrow over the lost, and will view it as just.

    Mr. Helpmann: He’s got away from us, Jack.
    Jack Lint: ‘Fraid you’re right, Mr. Helpmann. He’s gone.

  610. #613 Xplodyncow
    March 25, 2009

    So all those unborn babies that Gingi et al. are saving from “the American holocaust of children”–what if all those fetuses turn out to be godless liberals?

  611. #614 Chemgirl
    March 25, 2009

    I am always shocked and confused at how these religious types manage to make connections to things that are totally irrelevant.

    Children of a man who protects the right of women to an abortion die in a plane crash? Clearly these events are related. For people who are supposed to rely on faith, they sure pretend to know a hell of a lot about the mind of their God.

  612. #615 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    Carlie, classic scene from Brazil is what I have in mind when I quote one of my favorite lines from Pratchett (as I already have upthread):

    “There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.”

  613. #616 Wowbagger, OM
    March 25, 2009

    I wrote:

    I agree that that’s a pretty silly claim, in and of itself – and nigh on impossible to verify.

    frog wrote, responding to that:

    So off the mark, it’s not even wrong.

    I think you’ve got your wires crossed, frog. What I was trying to say (and didn’t think was ambiguous in the least) is that it would be difficult to show, definitively, that adherence to Christianity made one consistently ‘less moral’ than a lack of adherence to Christianity – which is what heddle said atheists on occasion claim.

    So, I think we’re actually in agreement. Or, at least, that’s what I’ve gleaned from the rest of your post.

    Correct me if I’m wrong.

  614. #617 ChrisKG
    March 25, 2009

    Ok, there’s a thought…

    If the fetuses are not born, then they cannot sin. If they cannot sin, aren’t they guaranteed a place in heaven? Shouldn?t she be happy for them and even encourage abortion? This should be a direct path to eternal bliss with Jesus, right?

    C

  615. #618 frog
    March 25, 2009

    Wowbagger:

    You’re right, I misread you. You were responding to a heddlian straw man, and I thought you were acting as the straw man.

    I thought you were singing “If I only had a brain” — and it turns out I was getting on the yellow brick road instead.

    But I like the rest of my post, even if the impetus was only my own foolishness.

  616. #619 heddle
    March 25, 2009

    Astrounit #607,

    Well, you used capital letters, some even in double quotes (always the sign of a rational mind) and you used the words puke and vomit and variants of imbecile at least eight times so I?m sure whatever you posted is correct.

  617. #620 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    you used the words puke and vomit and variants of imbecile at least eight times

    Astrounit must’ve been referring to heddle droppings.

  618. #621 zonotrichia
    March 25, 2009

    Here’s the brilliant, sensitive response from the website owner to people who complained about this piece.

    http://www.earnedmedia.org/cnw0325.htm

  619. #622 casey
    March 25, 2009

    I know a horrible, little fundamentalist brat who deserves a spanking. (They believe in corporal punishment, don’t they? That’s what I thought.) And since this is such an extreme case of naughtiness, I suggest using the paddle.

  620. #623 Wowbagger, OM
    March 25, 2009

    frog,

    No problem – that’s pretty much what I thought was the case, though (as it may have implied) that does mean we’re both agreeing with heddle in the impossibility of measuring the difference between Christians and non-Christians.

    And I liked your post, too – so I guess I’m happy in a way that I contributed to inspiring your writing of it :)

  621. #624 Max
    March 25, 2009

    Actually, given her viewpoint it was an entirely reasonable post. If you take as a given (I don’t) that the man was as guilty of atrocities as any Nazi, then hers was actually a rather civilized response. And that’s the scary part for me. When you take such a distorted view of the world it is very easy to become the monster you abhor. Should some evidence of foul play come to light, I do hope she is considered as a person of interest.

  622. #625 Twin-Skies
    March 25, 2009

    @zonotrichia

    Oh dear, does that happen to be this Gary McCullough?
    http://blogs.salon.com/0002874/2005/03/24.html

    California: Gary McCullough and 20 teenage ?survivors? invaded a clinic, screaming and calling people ?murderer? and ?baby killer?, and passing out literature. Police responded but made no arrests. McCullough describes ?survivors? as those born after 1973, who ?survived the abortion holocaust.? He told police that this was the group?s first ?survivor training.?

    In retrospect, Gingi is tame compared to the previous cuthroats and murderers Gary’s defended in the past.

  623. #626 John Phillips, FCD
    March 25, 2009

    Heddle, I’m a bit late to the fold, but I like how when you rise to heaven your god allows you to watch those deemed unworthy suffer, yet makes the suffering largely irrelevant by removing your ability to feel anything but that it is just that we suffer for not having been picked as worthy by your god. And this is moral how?

    To quote Lewis Black, you are “Stone-cold-fuck-nuts!”

  624. #627 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    And this is moral how?

    Morality is what heddle says heddle’s god says it is. The little monster that heddle worships will now wish you either into the cornfield, or cartoonland, depending on whether you watched Twilight Zone in glorious black and white, or watched the movie with Sally Cruikshank’s animated homage to the Betty Boop cartoon, Bimbo’s Initiation. Remember kids, when heddle or his pals walk up to you and ask if you “Wanna be a member? Wanna be a member?” say, “NO” like Bimbo did.

  625. #628 John Nernoff III
    March 25, 2009

    I sent the following to Gingi:

    Deut 7:1 …many nations–the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations….you must destroy them totally….show them no mercy….For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth….

    [genocide n.
    The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group. --Am Herit. Dict. 3rd Ed, 1994]

    Numbers 31:17: “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones.”

    Deut. 2:34: “. . . utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones.”

    Deut 20:10-16 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

  626. #629 frog
    March 25, 2009

    Wowbagger: that does mean we’re both agreeing with heddle in the impossibility of measuring the difference between Christians and non-Christians.

    Yup, we’re talking about two different levels of description. Individuals have to be judged on an individual basis — Christians, as individuals, continue to be individuals. The evilness/ugliness of the core of their ideology is distinct from their personality and real personal beliefs.

    Another way to separate the levels is to see Christianity as a language. You can say anything you want in any human language if you just try hard enough — but some things are much easier to say (and think) in some languages than others.

  627. #630 ambulocetus
    March 25, 2009

    Cuttlefish @ 193
    That almost brought me to tears.

  628. #631 Sherry
    March 25, 2009
  629. #632 TheNaturalist
    March 25, 2009

    Just two words: douche nozzle.

  630. #633 Maria
    March 25, 2009

    I’m appalled at the behavior of some Christians, I maintain my disdain for religion in general, but one has to be CLEAR in making that distinction rather than to say “Christians are x”.
    If I’ve learned anything it is that Christians are comprised of a diverse group of people, and within denominations it is no less true. Respect the person if you don’t respect the religion.

  631. #634 Wowbagger, OM
    March 25, 2009

    frog wrote:

    The evilness/ugliness of the core of their ideology is distinct from their personality and real personal beliefs.

    I think a lot of it’s to do with how little is actually required of Christians to qualify as such – i.e. they just have to be able to answer in the affirmative when asked what their religious beliefs are.

    Should Christians have to qualify through study and show they actually understand the philosophy and ideology of the faith they wish to be part of then we’d have fewer Christian scumbags like the odious ‘Gingi’ revelling in the deaths of these people.

    Admittedly, if Christians had to study and understand their religion there’d be far fewer Christians; too many of would go ‘hang on – it means I have to believe in what? Oh, that’s just stupid! I’m outta here.’

  632. #635 tammi
    March 25, 2009

    I’m sorry that this was written,but you cannot judge every Christian or Christianity on this article. Jesus says many beautiful things and because of whatever we see as bad…abortion or writing a hurtful letter of emotion, that is why Jesus came. Not to condemn but to save us. We are not to judge but love our enemies, do good to those who hate us, bless those who curse us and pray for those who mistreat us. I felt the families pain today but I also feel the ongoing pain of what abortion brings to lives. I have friends who are still trying to get over the decision of getting rid of their babies. The babies of abortion are in heaven and so are those precious children from the crash. It is all bad but though love all things can be healed. Please consider Christianlity and having a relationship with Christ. Again, I feel so badly for the hatred toward our Creator because of what people say and do. I pray for the family and that this article doesn’t cause them to judge our God on what one woman has written.

  633. #636 AnthonyK
    March 25, 2009

    Should Christians have to qualify through study and show they actually understand the philosophy and ideology of the faith they wish to be part of …

    They have, at various different times – especially the Catholics – but it has inevitably led to heresy and schism.
    Those were different times, however. But in our own age, Muslims have tried just this trick, sometimes with very unpleasant results.
    Most religious people, I think, just practice their faith without too much thought, and without harming others. I think it is the doctrinaire faiths and individuals who do the real damage.

  634. #637 Wowbagger, OM
    March 25, 2009

    tammi wrote:

    Jesus says many beautiful things and because of whatever we see as bad…abortion or writing a hurtful letter of emotion, that is why Jesus came. Not to condemn but to save us.

    Then why didn’t it work? If your Jesus existed, tammi, he was a failure; he achieved nothing. He was tortured for nothing and he died for nothing. That a person like ‘Gingi’ can claim to be a Christian and yet act the way she does illustrates this.

    Of course, that the vile monster-god required that his own son be tortured and executed in order to achieve something (the forgiveness of humanity’s sins, whatever that means) that he could have just willed to happen – or, better yet, created us in such a way we couldn’t choose to do it – just makes it all that more pathetic.

    Please consider Christianlity and having a relationship with Christ.

    Why?

  635. #638 don
    March 25, 2009

    Would it be sick if somehow this creepy lady had a connection with the plane crash, sabatoge, I would not put it past these crazies…

  636. #639 AnthonyK
    March 25, 2009

    this article doesn’t cause them to judge our God on what one woman has written.

    Your prayers are unanswered. This letter does indeed bring shame oh her and her god, or rather, we would say, the church that encourages her to do such things.
    The enforced birth organisation you support is an evil thing in itself – insisting on birth as a punishment, or that severely damaged children be born to a life of pain.
    The letter just shows how heartless and inhumane the enforced birth crowd really are beneath their “christian” trappings.

  637. #640 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    Please hurry up and join them.
    You pitiable sow.
    The time has come.
    The time is now.
    Just go.
    Go.
    Go!
    I don’t care how.
    You can go by foot.
    You can go by cow.
    Christard troll tammi will you please go now!
    You can go on skates.
    You can go on skis.
    You can go in a hat.
    But
    Please go.
    Please!
    I don’t care.
    You can go
    By bike.
    You can go
    On a Zike-Bike
    If you like.
    If you like
    You can go
    In an old blue shoe.
    Just go, go, GO!
    Please do, do, do, DO!

    (with apologies to Dr. Seuss and Marvin K. Mooney, reputedly a standin for Richard M. Nixon)

  638. #641 Twin-Skies
    March 25, 2009

    @Maria

    I’d imagine that aside from Gingi, there was a massive outpouring of sympathy and compassion from other Christians who may have heard of this tragedy. That latters sort – those who understood this incident for what it is, don’t deserve ire imho.

    Those who’ve tossed it into the political agenda bandwagon, like Gingi, are literally asking for it.

  639. #642 Danton49
    March 25, 2009

    Great article. I just stumbled upon this blog and so far I’m loving what I see. I admit that religious does have a few (very few) good intentions, but not enough to make up for the incredible about of evil they cause. This is a great example of where they become so deluded in thinking they know what is right, while ignoring the blatant ironic and disgusting statement they make. Keep up the good work!

  640. #643 disgusted
    March 25, 2009

    I’m sure it won’t be posted because I don’t agree, but this string is not worth my time to read. 90% plus of what I did read was pure hate. You know, that stuff that only Christians are supposed to be capable of!! It’s clear that either most intelligent people aren’t wasting their time reading this string and/or the moderator is deleting most of the posts he disagrees with.

  641. #644 Numad
    March 25, 2009

    “I’m sure it won’t be posted because I don’t agree[...]”

    I think you may harboring some misconceptions about the administration of this blog.

  642. #645 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    The babies of abortion are in heaven and so are those precious children from the crash.

    What an emotional cripple you must be, “tammi.”

    That isn’t my idea of Heaven. The place must be swarming with so many billions of miscarriages and stillbirths that intentionally aborted pregnancies are way outnumbered. To equate children who died tragically with “the babies of abortion” is an ugly equivocation.

  643. #646 'Tis Himself
    March 25, 2009

    As a Calvinist, heddle believes in TULIP:

    Total Depravity – We’re scum
    Unconditional Election – God doesn’t care that we’re scum
    Limited Atonement – Jesus died to redeem only some of us, the rest are going to Hell.
    Irresistible Grace – We’re going to Heaven or Hell even if we’re dragged there by the scruff of our necks.
    Perseverance of the Saints – It doesn’t matter what we do, those of us going to Heaven are going there even if we were concentration camp guards, those of us going to Hell can be the nicest, most moral people.

    Calvinists are more wackaloon than many Christians and their god is an even bigger sadist than many Christians’ god.

  644. #647 Janine, Insulting Sinner
    March 25, 2009

    disgusted, I just love it when a person make a comment when that person does not know what they are talking about. PZ does not engage in deleting posts he disagrees with. Try a new complaint.

  645. #648 Wowbagger, OM
    March 25, 2009

    I’m sure it won’t be posted because I don’t agree, but this string is not worth my time to read. 90% plus of what I did read was pure hate. You know, that stuff that only Christians are supposed to be capable of!! It’s clear that either most intelligent people aren’t wasting their time reading this string and/or the moderator is deleting most of the posts he disagrees with.

    Try reading for comprehension, douchebag.

    PZ only deletes those comments of habitually unpleasant trolls, and almost always gives them warnings in advance. One-off drive-by morons like your incompetent self are safe, unless you make a habit of it.

    There are plenty worse than you who survive.

  646. #649 'Tis Himself
    March 25, 2009

    I’m sure it won’t be posted because I don’t agree

    This isn’t a Christian blog, you can post what you want and it won’t be censored.

  647. #650 CocoLoco
    March 25, 2009

    I’m getting a little tired of the “fundies will always be fundies and nothing will change them and they won’t listen to reason” , etc. etc. It’s just not true. I am living proof of that. I was pretty fundie all my life up until a few years ago. It IS possible and there IS hope, people. Just check out EXChristian.net. There are “deconverters” contributing their story of deconversion just about every day. Keep fighting with the voice of reason, it works more than you think.

  648. #651 Janine, Ignorant Slut
    March 25, 2009

    Posted by: tammi | March 25, 2009

    Please consider Christianlity and having a relationship with Christ.

    I did. I passed on it. But thank you for being the 11,896th person to tell me to do so.

  649. #652 peter
    March 25, 2009

    I was going to send the young lady a nice email but I couldn’t for this reason: “The e-mail message could not be delivered because the user’s mailfolder is full.”

    Sounds like you’ve all been doing a nice job, congratulations.

    - a “pro-abort”

  650. #653 Carlie
    March 25, 2009

    and/or the moderator is deleting most of the posts he disagrees with.

    Besides the fact that he has a very clear commenting policy that only bans certain overly repetitive actions after many public warnings, he’s spent the day being in a car wreck and then flying somewhere else to give a lecture tonight, so understanding how this blog works FAIL on your part.

  651. #654 Ken Cope
    March 25, 2009

    I’m getting a little tired of the “fundies will always be fundies and nothing will change them and they won’t listen to reason” , etc. etc. It’s just not true

    What, you think you’re the very first apostate to post here? Go to the end of the line, you strawman-spewing concern troll.

  652. #655 Zarquon
    March 25, 2009

    You know heddle is as obnoxious as he is because the more people he drives away from Christianity the more likely it is he gets his pie in the sky. He does it out of pure selfishness.

  653. #656 Pierce R. Butler
    March 25, 2009

    An email today from Matt Trewhella of “Missionaries to the Preborn”, promoting the Edmonds screed, endorses the goddidit perspective on the plane crash:

    A reminder that there is a God who judges rightly in the earth.

  654. #657 Scrum
    March 25, 2009

    “I feel so badly for the hatred toward our Creator because of what people say and do.”

    I have no problems with the Red Giant stars that created the heavy elements in our bodies.

    Oh, you meant the invisible sky fairy you cultists worship?

  655. #658 Desert Son
    March 25, 2009

    Ranson at #160, way back up thread, just now getting back to this thread after a trying day (I had a few brief moments to post in PZ’s car wreck thread earlier), and just wanted to say thank you for your kind words.

    Does Calvinism remind anyone else of Boxer from Orwell’s Animal Farm? “I will work harder,” even though, no matter the extent of the effort, no matter the dedication to the work, no matter the allegiance to the “party,” the poor bastard’s going to end up at the glue factory.

    I guess the difference would be that some people revel in the role.

    “It’s a crazy world.”
    “Someone should sell tickets.”
    “Hell, I’d buy one.”
    -Raising Arizona

    No kings,

    Robert

  656. #659 frog
    March 25, 2009

    WowBagger: Of course, that the vile monster-god required that his own son be tortured and executed in order to achieve something (the forgiveness of humanity’s sins, whatever that means) that he could have just willed to happen – or, better yet, created us in such a way we couldn’t choose to do it – just makes it all that more pathetic.

    I always wonder at the lack of wonder that Christians have over that particular article of faith.

    Now, where would the sacrifice of the first-born have a parallel in the history of the Middle-East… Let see…

    We have the sacrifice of Abraham, the culling of the Egyptians, the banning of the Molochian sacrifice, Cain and Abel (the first fruits), Passover and the ban on bloody sandwich bread, the redemption of the first-born by paying off the Levites… but most importantly, the widespread and well-attested Levantine custom of sacrificing children (loved children in particular) to God for his protection.

    Yup, contact with God requires a reparation of the murder of children. Now, what kind of world view is this one? Well, it has to be one where God is basically an alien force, not an immanent all powerful force, but a dangerous force incompatible with the world.

    If that’s the worldview of the original Christians, which makes the cross make sense rather than just be sadism, then current Christian ideology of a loving God, closer than your own heart, must be the exact opposite of what was originally believed.

    So, at least we don’t have the Christians to blame for the Christians!

  657. #660 Derek
    March 25, 2009

    #644 Disgusted wrote: “this string is not worth my time to read. 90% plus of what I did read was pure hate. You know, that stuff that only Christians are supposed to be capable of!!”

    Where was it stated that “hate” is the exclusive domain of Chrisianity? All human beings are capable of having this engagement with the world regardless of religious affiliation, or lack thereof.

    Also, if a passionate reaction to the goulish musings of Gingi Edmonds bothers you, then by all means stop reading this thread.

  658. #661 frog
    March 25, 2009

    Tammi: Jesus says many beautiful things and because of whatever we see as bad…abortion or writing a hurtful letter of emotion, that is why Jesus came. Not to condemn but to save us.

    It looks like Tammi doesn’t read her Bible very closely. What did that poor fig tree ever do to Jesus? And I guess he never condemned the rich, or conservative investors (Ha!), or those who pray on street corners, or….

    It’s just so rich to watch people just dump out the parts they don’t like, ignore the esoteric reality clearly implied by the stories (and said explicitly several times), and pretend that their own kindness actually comes from their tradition, instead of being a direct defiance of it.

    Now, I can condemn — I never claimed to hold ‘non-condemnation’ as a moral value. Maybe I am The One True Christian ™ as well!

  659. #662 Desert Son
    March 25, 2009

    Shoot, just realized I should’ve put a spoiler warning in my post at #659, in case some folks were planning on reading Animal Farm who hadn’t yet.

    Sorry about that. So, yeah, uh . . . spoilers . . . previously.

    Great Cthluhu, I’m tired. Gotta go to bed.

    No kings,

    Robert

  660. #663 Elisan
    March 25, 2009

    This story is just a shining example of what not to do. It’s the worst kind of human low – to take the suffering of another person and twist it for your own personal agenda. I did my time in organized religion and eventually I politely took my leave. To say that all Christians are like this disgusting zealot is unfair to the precious few in my life who have been supportive and loving despite my personal choice to disagree with their beliefs. And they are just as appalled at this as most of us posting here are. It’s just a sad thing all around. No one deserves that kind of pain. No one.

  661. #664 Kel
    March 25, 2009

    Those complaining about unfairly demonising the religion by way of the extremists then at the same time saying these people aren’t “true” Christians are hypocrites.

  662. #665 John Morales
    March 26, 2009

    To you Christians who complain that we deride your fellow believers when they’re immoral and lack of compassion, I will retort that such examples as this are evidence that Christian belief or piety does not engender morality in at least some of its followers.

  663. #666 aratina
    March 26, 2009

    It’s clear that either most intelligent people aren’t wasting their time reading this string and/or the moderator is deleting most of the posts he disagrees with. – disgusted

    Oh ffs! disgusted is back to tell us all off again for being conspirative thought police.

  664. #667 Megan
    March 26, 2009

    I wrote quite a lengthy e-mail to this Gingi person:

    “I was completely and utterly disgusted when I read your article about the loss of Mr. Feldkamp’s family members. You say in your article that you don’t want to turn it into “some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’” well too late, by writing that you already did, and you know what I think? I think you DID want to turn it into an “I told you so” and let me tell you something, that is just sick.

    You insinuate that a cluster of cells, that as not yet become a living breathing human being, is worth the same, maybe more, then the lives of the daughters, sons, and grandchildren lost in that terrible accident who were actually living independent beings with lives and people who cared about them.

    I hope the family affected by this tragedy never has to hear or even think about your insulting and hideous article. They don’t deserve that, no one does – except maybe you since you seem to be an extremely pathetic excuse for a human being.

    If you have truly ever lived through a tragedy as great as the Feldkamp’s, which I suspect you have not, then you might have thought twice about publishing your “work.” Are you aware that the Feldkamp family is probably haunted more by the good memories, the loss of ones they loved, than the hate shouted at them by you and others? No which shows your absolute unconcern for human life. HUMAN life not FETUS life. Fetuses are not independent beings like young children whose lives were cut short by this terrible accident.

    I do not care that you are anti-choice, that is the farthest thing from my mind right now, I DO care however that you show a lack of resepct to lives of previously LIVING people and their families whose world is probably crumbling around them since they have lost the ones they love.

    Megan, 18-years-old and pro-choice

    P.S. If you have actually read this all the way through, do not bother to contact me about this matter. I’ve spoken my opinion and it CANNOT be changed.”

    I don’t expect a reply but having dealt with my own family tragedies I felt compelled to give her my 2 cents.

  665. #668 Leigh Williams
    March 26, 2009

    He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”

    #593, posted under the names of PZ’s children.

    This is a THREAT, is what it is.

    The asshole’s name and contact info:

    John Pacheco
    Vigil Co-ordinator
    40 Days for Life
    Ottawa Campaign
    pacheco377@gmail.com

    John Pancheco, I see what you did there!

    I sent ole’ John the following email:
    ———————————————–
    Subject: Thanks for visiting Pharyngula

    Thanks for dropping by PZ Myers’ blog today. Since you saw fit to threaten PZ’s children, I’ve noted your contact info in the thread you visited for future reference. If anything untoward should happen to his family, I’m sure the authorities will be paying you a visit.

    I only mention this to document your threatening activity. Truth be told, I’m sure you’re so ineffectual in all areas that you pose no real danger.

    By the way, your theology and politics are both ridiculous and wrong. I thank God that you and your ilk are becoming more and more irrelevant by the day, though I deplore the shrillness the resulting desperation engenders.

    Have a nice day!

    Leigh Williams
    Austin, Texas

  666. #669 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 26, 2009

    Simple Simon the religitard Lieman saying love: Breaking into another persons blog to post inanities and lies.

  667. #670 Kel
    March 26, 2009

    Love according to pharyngula Atheist, this is my conclusion

    As per usual, you are so far off the pulse that I must conclude that you are either mentally defective or have the mind of a juvenile. You have no clue, and I defy you to find anyone on here who believes that pedophaelia is acceptable.

  668. #671 Rilke's Granddaughter
    March 26, 2009

    Ah, Simon the fool; Simon the anti-Christian; Simon the ignorant; Simon, who can neither reason nor borrow reason from anyone else.

    What a childish twerp you are, Simon. Without intelligence, without creativity, without faith, hope, or anything much beyond your capacity to be dull.

    You do realize that you are a great laughingstock here, don’t you? You do realize that you’re considered a joke, don’t you?

    Do you actually think that you’re doing anything at all here? Heddle at least uses reason to back his hateful, irrational, loathsome faith.

    You’re just a frackin’ moron with the education of a rock.

  669. #672 Evangelatheist
    March 26, 2009

    Simon-
    If you’re going to bother to post, why don’t you post something constructive: let me suggest a comparison between the hateful gingi edwards and the also hateful esther. I’d be interested in studying your delusional thoughts.

    However if you don’t bother to come up with anything more useful, SHUT THE FUCK UP!

  670. #673 Thom
    March 26, 2009

    Funny thing. This douchebag’s mailbox is now full. What a surprise!

  671. #674 jrock
    March 26, 2009

    Hey, first time poster and relatively new to the site. Had to respond on that idiot Gingi. She should take a lesson from a 6 year old that has a better sense of compassion than she’ll ever have in her twisted little mind.
    ‘If you want to learn to love better, you should start with a friend who you hate,’

    Nikka – age 6
    I’ve been outraged at the antics of so-called “loving” Christians for some time, and this is but another unsurprising example of what they do.

    As for Simon, nice post. I see you’ve learned that when logic and reason fail resort to slurring those that don’t agree with you (i.e. anyone who thinks rationally). As for the use of the word fuck all the time, well, I won’t use the word, but what I will say is “Doom on you!”

  672. #675 Twin-Skies
    March 26, 2009

    @jrock

    “Doom on you” = transliteration of Vietnamese phrase “Du Mhan Yhu” = “Go fuck yourself”

    Nicely said man – I’m assuming you’re either a ‘Nam vet, a military man, or read Dick Marcinko’s books. In any case, welcome aboard!

  673. #676 Reggie
    March 26, 2009

    Amen, PZ. A-fucking-men.

  674. #677 Twin-Skies
    March 26, 2009

    @Leigh

    #593′s moniker was the names of all three of PZ’s kids?

  675. #678 Ken Cope
    March 26, 2009

    Yes, Twin-Skies. That, and the biblical injunction about the sins of the fathers passed on to the children, can be interpreted as nothing other than a death threat. There are some assholes who need to learn that it isn’t Dick Cheney’s FBI any more.

  676. #679 raven
    March 26, 2009

    Well we have all seen the face of raw, utter evil face to face. Gingi Edmonds and her gang of ghouls, death cult fundie xians all. Worshipping hate and lies and killing and calling it god. Even I’m shocked and I’ve seen everything and then some.

    It isn’t all bad though. Virtually all normal people including most other xians are repulsed by these living demons.

    They are creating atheists and anti-xians by the trainload. My guess, more than half of the posters on this board are ex-xians and many of them were xians for decades or more. And the Gingis, Barbs, and Simons of the world woke them up and drove them out of the religion.

  677. #680 Anonymous
    March 26, 2009

    Yes, Twin-Skies. That, and the biblical injunction about the sins of the fathers passed on to the children, can be interpreted as nothing other than a death threat. There are some assholes who need to learn that it isn’t Dick Cheney’s FBI any more.

    Death threats over the internet are felonies. And the FBI has a cybercrimes division. Report them to the FBI. They will investigate and prosecute. There are a lot of people doing multi-year sentences for death threats.

    Been there, done that. And two slime molds ended up charged with federal felonies and explaining the unexplainable in court to a judge.

  678. #681 saxon
    March 26, 2009

    Wow. Sounds like a really cool girl band….I wanna be in it. ‘cept, maybe I’m too old, being her mom and all.

    raven….a black bird, usually associated with death…hmmmm

    gingi…a christian girl, usually assoicated with LIFE and saving babies.

    one of these things is not like the other.

  679. #682 Wowbagger, OM
    March 26, 2009

    saxon wrote:

    gingi…a christian girl, usually assoicated with LIFE and saving babies.

    [checking dictionary] Nope, got nothing matching that definition.

    I do have ‘gingi – clueless, repellent, attention-desperate, forced-birth anti-choice sociopathic embarrassment-even-to-other-Christians* scumbag who might have turned out differently had her equally odious scumbag of a mother exercised common sense and/or critical thinking skills at key points in her or her daughter’s life.’

    PS Go fuck yourself, turd.

    *Read some of the posts here, dipshit; we have Christians calling your daughter out for her immoral repugnanace.

  680. #683 Ken Cope
    March 26, 2009

    Report them to the FBI. They will investigate and prosecute. There are a lot of people doing multi-year sentences for death threats.

    They’re not the first death threats or attempts to intimidate PZ and his family seen here. Usually, in the wake of Crackergate, by the time we’ve seen the contents of PZ’s email, so has the FBI. Unlike his theist stalkers, PZ is no fool. If it weren’t for Michigan weather and too much excitement, PZ would probably have excised the post by now and had a few choice remarks to share.

  681. #684 Twin-Skies
    March 26, 2009

    @saxon

    It depends on whicch culture you follow. Ravens in western mythology tend to get a bad rep, unfortunately. In my country for example, ravens (or at least their relative, the maya bird) is respected for its cleverness and affection as a pet.

    Quit the stereotyping baseless generalizations – all you’re showing is your ignorance

  682. #685 jrock
    March 26, 2009

    @ Twin-Skies

    Not a ‘Nam vet, but I am a former Navy man and I have read Marcinko’s books as well. Thanks for the welcome. I’m glad somebody caught the reference.

    As for Saxon, thanks for the post. I see you studied under the same masters that taught Simon. In case you didn’t see it I said that when logic and reason fail, resort to slurring those that don’t agree. A raven is just a bird. Attaching a human created superstitious association means nothing(I’m sure there’s an argument against religion there somewhere.)The raven who posted actually seems to be against killing and using someone’s tragedy for a chance at a smug, self-righteous I told you so.
    However, I have to agree with you on one thing. One of those things is not like the other. Raven uses her brain for thinking and by her outrage at Gingi shows her empathy for a man that is going through a terrible tragedy. Saxon: “Doom on you!”

  683. #686 John Morales
    March 26, 2009

    saxon @683, why do you evade the issue by irrelevant comparisons with user names?

    Despite her protestation, your daughter used the grief of others to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment, in her own words.

    You’re no better:

    This was a horrific accident, one that would be akin to a drunk driver who finally realizes he needs to sober up when he kills a large family.

    When will you sober up? Hypocrite.

  684. #687 Twin-Skies
    March 26, 2009

    Are we even sure Saxon is in any way blood-related to Gingi? The latter has at least proven her capacity for coherent writing, whilst the former is only attempting said endeavor.

  685. #688 bootsy
    March 26, 2009

    @669 Simon:

    Good point, I would LOVE a fuck as breakfast.

    I’ll be working on making that happen.

  686. #689 raven
    March 26, 2009

    saxon the demon from hell:

    Wow. Sounds like a really cool girl band….I wanna be in it. ‘cept, maybe I’m too old, being her mom and all.

    raven….a black bird, usually associated with death…hmmmm

    gingi…a christian girl, usually assoicated with LIFE and saving babies.

    one of these things is not like the other.

    Saxon, I’m a medical researcher. My job is to keep people from dying. With more than a little success. One treatment we developed turned a not uncommon incurable form of cancer into a treatable and sometimes curable one. Maybe you will need it some day. I may have to care for your case, but I don’t have to care about it.

    And I won’t, for sure. And BTW, you are lying like all living demons. Ravens are considered smart birds in most mythologies and in real life. And what is wrong with being black? You and your Death Cultists are creating atheists and nonxians by the boatload full. It is all about the evil and hate and killing isn’t it? I was a xian for 50 years. People like you drove me out of it and not that long ago, it’s only been a few months.

    If there is a hell, that isn’t where you are going. That is where you are from.

  687. #690 CocoLoco
    March 26, 2009

    Ken @ #655,

    Get a grip, man.What the hell makes me a concern troll? My comment was meant as an encouragement to those who think all Christians are hopelessly delusional. I was and no longer am due to the efforts of those contributing to sites such as this. Chill the hell out. This is why I rarely comment on this site. People like you jump down throats without first understanding what was meant.

  688. #691 jrock
    March 26, 2009

    @ Raven

    By the way, I just realized I used the feminine her without actually knowing if your female. If you aren’t I apologize for the error. No offense intended on my part.

  689. #692 Ken Cope
    March 26, 2009

    My comment was meant as an encouragement to those who think all Christians are hopelessly delusional.

    Strawman. Look up the word apostate. Few here could even imagine such a thing, with so many of us having been formerly fundies.

  690. #693 John Morales
    March 26, 2009

    Twin-Skies,

    Are we even sure Saxon is in any way blood-related to Gingi?

    No, not at all.
    I’m taking the poster at face value, but if it’s not, it’s yet another pious lie.

    The sentiment remains the same.

  691. #694 Ken Cope
    March 26, 2009

    People like you jump down throats without first understanding what was meant.

    Nobody can be expected to know what you meant, unless it is accurately reflected in what you write. A lesson heddle needs to learn also, is to never write more clearly than you can think.

  692. #695 Discombobulated
    March 26, 2009

    Saxon the Demon-Queen:

    So, nevermind that 7 people died other than Feldkamp’s young family members? Collateral damage is just peachy-keen? Just like Katrina indiscriminately destroying churches as well as “depraved homosexuals”?

    The Blood-God with the bad aim: when it thirsts, we are all fair game.

  693. #696 CocoLoco
    March 26, 2009

    Sigh. Ken. Let me try this again. What I mean is, some can see the light of reason and throw off the shackles of Christianity. I did. I no longer am a Christian after research and listening to reason. I’m saying there is hope. With the right tools some people can overcome the delusion in which they were raised. That’s all. My reason for posting in the first place was that I fear people giving up fighting people like Gingli with reason. I would have thought similar things as her once upon a time. What is wrong with saying there’s hope?

  694. #697 CocoLoco
    March 26, 2009

    I’m on your side, Ken. Are you purposely trying to alienate me? I just think there’s a misunderstanding. Geez.

  695. #698 raven
    March 26, 2009

    By the way, I just realized I used the feminine her without actually knowing if your female. If you aren’t I apologize for the error. No offense intended on my part.

    Since when is being female an insult? No offense meant or taken. I’m a lot more concerned about saxon, gingi, and the hordes of similar. A lot of the evil I’ve seen in the past has been mostly just psychotics who really aren’t evil, just crazy, bad genetics and bad brain chemistry.

    These people are in a class by themselves. I think it takes a seriously defective personality backed up by faith in a monstrous, sadistic god to produce moslem suicide bombers, witch killers, or gingis, saxons, and the multitude of the same.

    “It takes religion for good people to do bad things.” Imagine what religion does for people who start out bad.

  696. #699 John Phillips, FCD
    March 26, 2009

    Ironically (Sorry Raven :) ) but a Raven in Celtic (Welsh) mythology was revered as a spiritual figure or god and the actual Raven is one of the most intelligent birds around. Seems appropriate for our Raven :)

    Gingivitis (as she did leave a very nasty taste in the mouth) not so much, i.e. spirituality or intelligence. Sorry you couldn’t have done better by your daughter saxon. So tell us. Was it nature or nurture that she turned out as such a sad compassionless crone?

  697. #700 John Morales
    March 26, 2009

    CocoLoco, relax. With good reason, regulars here have very sensitive troll sniffers and itchy trigger-fingers :)

    What is wrong with saying there’s hope?

    Nothing. It’s more the way you said it:

    I’m getting a little tired of the “fundies will always be fundies and nothing will change them and they won’t listen to reason” , etc. etc.

    Regarding

    My reason for posting in the first place was that I fear people giving up fighting people like Gingli with reason.

    take heart, this is Pharyngula. No fear of that, here.

  698. #701 Leigh Williams
    March 26, 2009

    After reading PZ’s account of his car wreck, and then seeing the threat in #593, I am quite disturbed.

    No brakes. No steering. That strikes me as odd. Yes, the road was icy, but his description of the way he applied the brakes seems prudent to me from what little I remember about driving on ice. He says he had plenty of time to stop, even in those conditions.

    I hope his car will be carefully examined by a qualified mechanic to determine what went wrong.

  699. #702 jrock
    March 26, 2009

    @ raven
    Being female isn’t an insult(as I’m sure my wife would agree). As for the defective personality backed by faith, I think that faith causes the defective personality. Religion, I’m sure we’ll all agree, is propagated by brainwashing the young and the superstitious. By focusing on the young, who don’t really have a chance at developing a personality, religions can shape and mold them however they want. While I agree about brain chemistry for some, I think the sad truth is that people like Gingi were twisted by their parents into sad caricatures of actual human beings that mistake fantasy for reality.

    The really scary thing is in her twisted fantsy world, she probably truly believes she was expressing some sympathy for the doctor. Why religion hasn’t been classified as a mental disorder is beyond me.

  700. #703 CocoLoco
    March 26, 2009

    Thanks Mr. Morales. I’m brand new here. Didn’t think I’d get wigged out on after only my 2nd post. I do get tired of people often posting about how hopeless this all is. When we’ve got PZ, Dawkins, Harris, and the like traveling all over and giving talks and lectures, I feel quite optimistic. It will take time, but I think reason will win out. Perhaps I’m naive?

  701. #704 Ken Cope
    March 26, 2009

    Perhaps I’m naive?

    We’ll turn you into a steely-eyed, flint-skinned athier-than-thou atheist in no time. Buck up. We have the upper hand and the moral authority. After all, we don’t have to imagine there’s no heaven. We’re all here just doing the best we can. Sorry about the stubbed toes, but I’m sure you’ve noticed there are flaming bags of poo all over the place today.

  702. #705 jrock
    March 26, 2009

    @CocoLoco

    Hey, I’m new here as well. I don’t feel that its hopeless at all. In fact, with every evangalist or talking head decrying the way secularists and godless liberals are taking over my hopes raise. If reason wasn’t having an effect or posed a threat to these people, they wouldn’t acknowledge it. It will take time(probably more time than I have on this world) but reason will win out. We know it and they know it, which is why they fight so hard to discredit atheists. If you don’t mind the expression “Keep the faith”.

    As for Gingi, Coulter, O’Reilly, the Pope, and any other person out there that tries to twist words and force your beliefs where they have no business being: “Doom on You!”

  703. #706 John Phillips, FCD
    March 26, 2009

    CocoLoco, stick in there, we can be a bit abrasive at times, to say the least :) especially if we have just had a lot of trolling or a run of inane god botherers with circular arguments so that even seemingly innocent posts can get someones spidey senses tingling. But it can be fun and educational, for I don’t think a day has gone by that I haven’t learnt something of value here, either from PZ or from one of the mountain of superb posters.

  704. #707 CocoLoco
    March 26, 2009

    :o) Aww shucks. Thanks guys. I’ve witnessed your pitbullesque attacks on godbotherers and it does get bloody in here. But, yes, I do learn so much on this site and I’m glad to have stumbled across it.

  705. #708 John Morales
    March 26, 2009

    CocoLoco, I don’t think you’re naive, but some of us are somewhat jaded. Hang around a while and you’ll see godbots whose insouciant yet wilful ignoring of reason and evidence over a period of time is remarkably predictable.

  706. #709 Truelove
    March 26, 2009

    What’s wrong with all of you people? People died, so you decide to fight? That it was the hand of God, or that God doesn’t exist and Christians are evil?! About Pro life or Pro Choice?! You all yell your hate at each other and forget to be human, on both sides. You forget the love that makes you human. A true measure of a man isn’t whether they can love those that agree with him. It’s if they can face someone who doesn’t, and love them regardless. Judging from what I’ve seen, very few of you can honestly say that.

  707. #710 Jafafa Hots
    March 26, 2009

    This is heinous. But it does not accurately represent the majority of those who profess Christian faith. My guess is that it may represent many of the folks who claim to be Christian…

    Bullshit. The only thing about this is it perhaps more starkly shows the udnerlying theme of Christianity than most usually dare to.

    Almost universal among all but those who most casually call themselves Christian is the feeling that if they have avoided a fatality, God saved them, and if they die, God has “called them home.”

    God decides when and why you die. That is the essence of Christianity. You will be judged. You will be rewarded or punished. That’s Christianity in a nutshell. Add varying degrees of “you’re inherently nasty, dirty, bad, sinful and you have some major sucking up to do or your ass is going to be tortured” for most if not all Christian sects.

    It’s almost impossible to believe in any god without being delusional (those who have no access to any scrap of information learned since about 5000 years ago get a pass)

    It’s almost impossible to believe in and worship rather than detest the Christian god (as commonly represented) without being at least to some degree immoral.

    Human morality comes from empathy. The Christian god cannot be revered without an empathy deficiency.

    Christain faith is a form of sociopathy.

  708. #711 John Phillips, FCD
    March 26, 2009

    Truelove said

    A true measure of a man isn’t whether they can love those that agree with him. It’s if they can face someone who doesn’t, and love them regardless.

    Say what? Says Who? Sorry, I think you have got your wires crossed. For while I find it difficult to hate just about anyone I find it just as difficult to love someone like the turd who wrote the article referred to in this post. I think you are mixing us up with xians who are supposed to love their enemies and not gloat about their misfortunes.

    As an atheist? Not so much. For initially I will treat all people with respect but when they show me that they don’t deserve it, as gingivitis doesn’t, then they are fair game for whatever level of criticism I feel appropriate.

  709. #712 jrock
    March 26, 2009

    Uhhh…Truelove, judge not lest ye be judged. Seems appropriate since judging by your post you just did the exact same thing everyone else has been doing.
    Besides love is not what makes us human. It’s a part of what makes us human, along with hate, anger, fear, sadness, happiness, and all other emotions.

    As for the true measure of man being loving those that don’t agree with you, well, no that isn’t the true measure of a man. I love plenty of people who don’t agree with me (for instance, my wife happens to be a preacher’s daughter). If you want to use love as the measure of men, feel free because that’s not really germane to the discussion at hand. This discussion is actually more analogous to “The only requirement for evil to triumph is for good people to sit back and do nothing.” Standing up for what you believe in is the true measure of any person.

  710. #713 Jafafa Hots
    March 26, 2009

    “What’s wrong with all of you people? People died, so you decide to fight? That it was the hand of God, or that God doesn’t exist and Christians are evil?! About Pro life or Pro Choice?! You all yell your hate at each other and forget to be human, on both sides. You forget the love that makes you human. A true measure of a man isn’t whether they can love those that agree with him. It’s if they can face someone who doesn’t, and love them regardless. Judging from what I’ve seen, very few of you can honestly say that.”

    Yes. From now on when faced with the Phelpses, we should smile, say “gosh aren’t then cute,” and feel the love for them.

    NO person can honestly say they love everyone with whom they disagree…

    A person can honestly say they love humanity as a whole.
    A person can honestly say they don’t have any person in the whole world – me for example. I don’t hate ANYONE, I don’t have room in my life for that, though I certainly can hate actions and effects of people.

    But NOBODY can honestly say they love everyone, as individuals. If you do say that you’re just blowing smoke up your own ass. It proves only that you love one person – yourself, and you’re happy to flatter yourself to a preposterous degree as a consequencen of your excessive self-regard.

  711. #714 Jafafa Hots
    March 26, 2009

    Typo correction: a person can say they dont HATE anyone.

  712. #715 Twin-Skies
    March 26, 2009

    @Jafafa Hots

    Yes. From now on when faced with the Phelpses, we should smile, say “gosh aren’t then cute,” and feel the love for them.

    That’s actually a brilliant idea. Smother your enemies with love, compassion and friendliness. You’d be surprised how badly this throws a lot of hateful people off guard.

  713. #716 Jafafa Hots
    March 26, 2009

    “Standing up for what you believe in is the true measure of any person.”

    Gentle disagreement. I would actually depreciate that a bit. WHAT you believe in is the true measure of a person. After that standing up for it is good, as long as what you believe in isn’t bullshit.

    Godwin alert – Hitler did a damned fine job of standing up for what he believed in. The measure of him as a person? Not so fucking great.

  714. #717 Jafafa Hots
    March 26, 2009

    I am humbled by the infinitie wisdom of your words, and my heart leaps with joy and appreciation at finding my humble self the recipient of this precious gift of your superior level of compassion and human understanding.

  715. #718 Jafafa Hots
    March 26, 2009

    aqhhh fuck. quote didnt work. I give up. No more commenting on a 15 year old pc with a malware-ridden copy of windows 95 via dialup on a noisy trailer phone line.

    No more internet til im back incivilization.

  716. #719 Anton Mates
    March 26, 2009

    That’s actually a brilliant idea. Smother your enemies with love, compassion and friendliness. You’d be surprised how badly this throws a lot of hateful people off guard.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cZph0E1klQ

    The Klan rally scene was the best part, but I can’t find it on YouTube.

  717. #720 jrock
    March 26, 2009

    @Jaffa Hots

    Thank you for that clarification. You’re right, I should have been more careful when I made that statement. Although it seems that there is an assumption that the true measure of a person has to be inherently good. You nailed it right on the head when you said the measure of Hitler was “not so fucking great”.
    However, tossing out the assumption that the measure of a person is a good thing, and realizing that it simply reflects the person for better or for worse, and given the fact that the only way to know what someone believes is by them standing up for it, I think my statement still has validity.
    Gingi stood up for what she believed and we have taken her measure. She is cruel, venal, and twisted and definitely found wanting.

  718. #721 Drosera
    March 26, 2009

    Browsing through the enormous number of comments on this thread it is gratifying to see that the vast majority of posters have, often with great eloquence, expressed their disgust over Gingi?s bone-chilling article. Even her mother has turned up (if Saxon really is who she claims to be) and has made a good attempt to support the truth of the saying ?like mother like daughter.? What irritates me most are not the predictable reactions of the fundie godbots who somehow condone Gingi?s evident glee over the death of so many innocent people. This is to be expected from god-fearing zombies. I can even laugh at them, like you can laugh at some silly monster in a cheap horror movie. No, what irritates me most are the reactions of the Christians who begin by stating that of course they abhor the likes of Gingi but then go on explaining that Gingi is not a True Christian (TM), that what Jesus actually taught was… etc., etc.

    I reiterate what I have said way up here: Gingi is acting in exact conformity with the teachings of the Bible, she is a True Christian (TM) if ever there was one. If you ?moderate Christians? do not agree with her than you should consider burning your Bible, a book that should really be called Genocide for Dummies, and stop calling yourselves Christians.

  719. #722 Drosera
    March 26, 2009

    If you ?moderate Christians? do not agree with her then you should consider burning your Bible, a book that should really be called Genocide for Dummies, and stop calling yourselves Christians.

  720. #723 John Phillips, FCD
    March 26, 2009

    Drosera. Your Genocide for Dummies is so much better than my usual favoured label of the wholly babble. May I borrow it? Pretty please :)

  721. #724 Drosera
    March 26, 2009

    John, feel free to spread the word.

  722. #725 John Phillips, FCD
    March 26, 2009

    Drosera, thank you, I shall relish deploying it at opportune and even not so opportune moments :)

  723. #726 Derek
    March 26, 2009

    #711 Truelove: “You all yell your hate at each other and forget to be human, on both sides. You forget the love that makes you human.”

    Nobody would “forget to be human” by expressing hatred on this board. Hatred, if it is indeed present in this thread, is an engagement with the world. It is very much a part of being human.

    “You forget the love that makes you human. A true measure of a man isn’t whether they can love those that agree with him. It’s if they can face someone who doesn’t, and love them regardless.”

    What sort of drivel is this? I don’t have to “love” anyone I disagree with. I will do what I can to protect their right to free speech but there is no need to “love” them.

  724. #727 heddle
    March 26, 2009

    John Phillips, FCD

    Drosera. Your Genocide for Dummies is so much better than my usual favoured label of the wholly babble. May I borrow it? Pretty please :)

    I?m sure it will be very effective. It will certainly lead to one of those climactic show-stopper moments so often reported here. It?ll be something like this:

    ?This religio-tard was talking to me, spouting off about his precious bible, and I said to him: ?You know what your bible should be called, it should be called Genocide for Dummies!? Ha ha, you should have seen his jaw drop. He was totally speechless! Then spittle started spraying from his mouth. I walked away LMAO. For all I know he eventually collapsed. Hee hee! I can?t wait to use it again and make another godbotter go catatonic. Hee hee!?

  725. #728 jrock
    March 26, 2009

    Folks, I just did the dumbest thing ever and went to that rancid witch Gingi Edmond’s site and read another of her “enlightened” opinions on how extremist, violent, pro-aborts(her term)are fooling the youth of America through lies and semantic word games.

    “Mass idiocy persists because complacent people allow it to. If anti-slavery activists insisted on the coddling of slave traders, slave owners and dehumanizing rhetoric that many pro-lifers seem keen on adopting for pro-choicers, we would still have slavery in our midst. We are fighting for victims who do not have voices of their own.” Gingi Edmonds

    She’s right about one thing, mass idiocy does persist because complacent people allow it. However, at least Pharyngula seems to be working against this mass idiocy. Atheists are also fighting for those who do not have voices of their own(the young children being brainwashed by religion) , and are actual people to boot! With no sense of irony at all she attributes Christian practices, i.e. brainwashing, ridicule, violence, onto the pro-choice side. Anybody want to get a petition going suggesting a law that children can’t be exposed to religion until…oh say 18!

  726. #729 John Phillips, FCD
    March 26, 2009

    Heddle, much better if I just point them at some of your posts. Much less work and we still get a good laugh at a display of teh stoopid.

  727. #730 Psydan
    March 26, 2009

    This is totally in line with the bible, though. Think of the story of Job, those of you with scriptural knowledge. God allows Satan to kill off all of Job’s family in one fatal moment, and the moral of the story ends up being something like “never question God, he made you too stupid to know his desires, and even if they are silly, petty things like bets with Satan, you shouldn’t ever doubt or question his goodness to and love for you.” God of course likes heartless, logical, and unquestioning people like himself, who can look past the fragile emotions like love, loss, pain, mourning, and fear, and instead see the big picture, the portrait he is painting that may look ugly up close, but is a beautiful painting when viewed from afar. Human tragedy must mean nothing to those who think that an all-powerful God is trying to change your mind by killing off your family. If this is God’s way, then surely this is the morality we should all hold to as good values, right?

    By the way, if anyone reads this and is struck by the idea that I may just be a crazy fundie defending this heartless “faith” called Christianity, know that my meanings are more subtle than they seem, and satire is a glass best served dry.

  728. #731 Pathogen
    March 26, 2009

    It’s stories like this that caused me to split with the Mormon church and ultimately walk away from religion altogether. It only breads unecessary division and just gives people another reason to be dicks to each other. No thanks.

    No doubt the author of this column supported the Iraq war. Not all life is sacrid to these people. It never has been, it never will be.

  729. #732 Drosera
    March 26, 2009

    jrock, agreed. Religion should definitely be X-rated.

  730. #733 John Phillips, FCD
    March 26, 2009

    Drosera and jrock, a while ago ICANN suggested having a .XXX domain for porn. They should have proposed it for religion instead.

  731. #734 Drosera
    March 26, 2009

    Even better would be an invisible domain.

  732. #735 Drosera
    March 26, 2009

    I mean for religion.

  733. #736 astrounit
    March 26, 2009

    heddle: “…I?m sure whatever you posted is correct.”

    So am I.

    All you bother to do is nitpick at the punctuation and capitalization. Evidently the words themselves presented an impossioble challenge for an imbecile.

  734. #737 John Phillips, FCD
    March 26, 2009

    An invisible domain, I like it. If only, he sighs wistfully. Ah well, one day.

  735. #738 heddle
    March 26, 2009

    Astrounit #738,

    All you bother to do is nitpick at the punctuation and capitalization. Evidently the words themselves presented an impossioble challenge for an imbecile.

    Yes, your exposé in #607 on how man?s chief end is to glorify God and enjoy him forever contains an inconsistency involving the words end and is beyond refute. In fact, your explanation:

    Ah, but a “PURPOSE”, a “GOAL”, a PRECONCIEVED whether strived for or acheived, is an END to the “quest”. There’s no QUESTING involved at all when one is already convinced of the “answer”.

    is an instant classic in the rhetorical arts. You are correct; I do not know how to respond to such an argument.

  736. #739 astrounit
    March 26, 2009

    Ken @ #621: Yeah, it was everywhere. You think maybe the repetition sunk in to his thick skull? Nah, I don’t think so either. Evidence that an imbecile is as blissfully unaware of subtle hints in the art of hammering as well as the overpowering stench of his own droppings.

  737. #740 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 26, 2009

    Simple Simon, do you have a real point? Your questions are stupid, inane, and irrelevant. Just like you. And you are a bad christian for breaking into Pharyngula. Your god is angry at you for doing so.

  738. #741 jrock
    March 26, 2009

    An atheist mourns because someone they care about has died and they know there will be no more time to spend with them. We know that this is the only time we have.
    The better question would be: Why do the religious mourn? Apparently you all go to Heaven and dance endlessly with your loved ones as your invisible friend watches over you to make sure you don’t fornicate. Idiot.

    Simon: “Doom on You!”

  739. #742 Matt
    March 26, 2009

    Despicable.

    Anyway, not preaching, just pointing out irony:

    Ezekiel 35 (New American Standard Bible):

    5 “Because you have had everlasting enmity and have delivered the sons of Israel to the power of the sword at the time of their calamity, at the time of the punishment of the end,

    6 therefore as I live,” declares the Lord GOD, “I will give you over to bloodshed, and bloodshed will pursue you; since you have not hated bloodshed, therefore bloodshed will pursue you.

    11 therefore as I live,” declares the Lord GOD, “I will deal with you according to your anger and according to your envy which you showed because of your hatred against them; so I will make Myself known among them when I judge you.

    12 “Then you will know that I, the LORD, have heard all your revilings which you have spoken against the mountains of Israel saying, ‘They are laid desolate; they are given to us for food.’

  740. #743 John Phillips, FCD
    March 26, 2009

    Matt, yeah, you are right, she is despicable and it seems from your posted verses that her own god will deal with her in his own good time. It is at times likes this I almost wish there really was a god complete with heaven and hell so sociopaths like gingivitis could get their just deserts according to their own cults ramblings.

  741. #744 Joel Spencer
    March 26, 2009

    I’m not condoning anyone’s “behavior” as I don’t know the author of the article or even what the website is that it is posted on. However, I find it odd that you all seem to quickly find such great fault with someone’s writings yet see nothing wrong with killing millions of unborn children.

    I’m sure not on any Christian bandwagons, nor am I here to “convert” anyone to anything. It’s just troubling to me to see such outraged responses to someone’s words, yet the actions of killing human beings is a non-issue completely.

    Everyone shouts about the rights of the mother… who stands up for the rights of the child that is destroyed before even having a voice?

    Getting back on point, everyone is so harsh on “Christians”… they’re this, they’re that. You know what though, they’re just like you. Herein lies the problem – they lie, they cheat, they steal, they speak out of their own carnal minds… just like you. Yet somehow THEY are the ones called “vile” or “evil”. Until Christians understand what it means to live set apart (as it was really meant to be), they will continue to be a mockery and laughable religion with no affect. Everyone shouts “Stop judging me!” as they turn and then judge someone else… everyone.

    So… everybody just calm down and do your part to better this world that is choosing to go the way of self-indulgence and destruction.

  742. #745 SC, OM
    March 26, 2009

    Only a moment to pop in, but first things first: Congratulations to Dr. MAJeff!

    wOOt! wOOt! wOOt!

    heddle’s really gone overboard on this thread with his evasive sarcasm. Here’s a hint, heddle: your use of it as a defense meachanism is entirely transparent to everyone but you, and so pathetic it makes some of us cringe. #571 reads as almost deranged.

    I fully agree with Brownian’s response to your stupid “moral comparison” post and the claims about what atheists are arguing made therein, but I’d add that, while Christianity is often an impediment, that does not make it the only possible impediment, so the reasoning on which your comparison is based goes awry there as well. Remaining in the ideological realm, political religion, for example, often has similar effects.

    Speaking of morality, I think I saw some response to Owlmirror on another recent thread, but I don’t believe you’ve responded to other comments on this thread:

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/03/those_who_believe_in_heaven_ar.php

  743. #746 John Phillips, FCD
    March 26, 2009

    Joel, the link to the original article is the second one second blue underlined one (in case you don’t know what a link looks like) in PZ’s post at the top. Go read it then come back and pontificate. Otherwise, be my guest and cnecha bant.

  744. #747 Holydust
    March 26, 2009

    please, for the love of god, ban siMon. at least other crazy religio-bots tend to speak decent english.

  745. #748 Holydust
    March 26, 2009

    p.s. — no pun intended.

  746. #749 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 26, 2009

    Only a moment to pop in, but first things first: Congratulations to Dr. MAJeff!

    wOOt! wOOt! wOOt!

    WOOT! Congratulations to Dr. MAJeff.

  747. #750 Wowbagger, OM
    March 26, 2009

    Joel Spencer, a great fool, wrote:

    However, I find it odd that you all seem to quickly find such great fault with someone’s writings yet see nothing wrong with killing millions of unborn children.

    Possibly because they’re no more ‘unborn children’ than the millions of sperm and eggs that don’t become children. If they’re unborn, they aren’t children.

    It’s just troubling to me to see such outraged responses to someone’s words, yet the actions of killing human beings is a non-issue completely.

    Human biological material, not human beings. There’s a difference. A cancer cell has everything an early stage blastocyst does; do you demand it has rights?

    Everyone shouts about the rights of the mother… who stands up for the rights of the child that is destroyed before even having a voice?

    Why should the rights of the growth (not a child; it has to be born to be a child) outweigh that of the mother? Do you have any idea how many pregnancies don’t carry to term? The Christian god, if he exists, aborts millions every year.

    You know what though, they’re just like you

    Yes, in some ways they are*. Except they claim they aren’t. They claim their religion makes them more moral than those who don’t share it.

    Pointing out their hypocrisy reminds them of it.

    So… everybody just calm down and do your part to better this world that is choosing to go the way of self-indulgence and destruction.

    If I’m reading this right, you’re coming to PZ’s blog and you’re telling us what to do. You know what I think of that?

    Fuck you. Take your demands and cram them in your ass. With walnuts.

    *The difference would be the delusional belief in an unfounded, archaic superstition.

  748. #751 flea
    March 26, 2009

    @747

    Monkeys don’t mourn? Really?

  749. #752 jrock
    March 26, 2009

    Simon, WTF! Are you deliberately stupid? What in the world would be the point of mourning someone you thought would live again, Jackass! The monkey remark doesn’t even dignify a response (although judging from your post I would bet you’re not quite as evolved as the rest of us.)Of course I love my family, most people would have inferred that even if I didn’t use the word. Somehow, from your posts I don’t think you know what love is. (Hint: It’s not the unquestioning belief of some mythic god, but actually caring about another human being.)

  750. #753 astrounit
    March 26, 2009

    Heddle #740 – I’m dreadfully sorry to see you back so soon – and I apologize to all if I’ve lured this prick back. I’m very sorry.

    But, my dear heddle, now that your here again, let me ask you one simple question: why are you using this thread, on PZ’s post of this horrible tragedy, upon the dead bodies of men, women and children who were totally innocent of the kind of dispicable charges voiced by this horrible Gingi Edmonds, in complete contempt for the surviving family members, to push your way into this thread to score points?

    I’ll tell YOU: you do it just because you are selfish, inconsiderate asshole who can’t handle the fact that the face of “Christian Love” is nakedly exposed for what it in fact is for all to see, and the sight of it is so gruesome that you perform a little dance of misdirection in order to distract as many respondents as possible in the thread into making unkind remarks about you. Very well done. You deserved every single one of them, and unfortunately several new readers come on this site and see the battle you’ve managed to kindle, and I’m sure you are proud of it, but the worst part of it is that you and that idiot Gingi Edmonds don’t give a flying shit about the people and the kids who perished in that terrible crash. You imbeciles would rather USE this horrible tragedy as an opportunity to push your morally degenerate views on people.

    You and Edmonds have absolutely no sense of empathy or humanity. What the HELL is wrong with you?

  751. #754 jrock
    March 26, 2009

    Flea, thanks for that link. I knew monkey’s actually did mourn, but didn’t have anything off-hand to refute that idiot’s insanity.

  752. #755 MAJeff, OM
    March 26, 2009

    Only a moment to pop in, but first things first: Congratulations to Dr. MAJeff!
    wOOt! wOOt! wOOt!

    Thanks.

    Now, where’s my fetus sashimi?! We could also blend a few of ‘em up for mighty good martinis.

    C’mon, ladies, get started on those abortion parties. I need food and drink for my celebration!

  753. #756 PZ Myers
    March 26, 2009

    Simon has been banned. What he’s doing now is intentionally morphing his email address with every post to avoid the filters — and no, I can’t simply ban on the word “simon”. I’m reduced to simply cleaning up his garbage every morning.

  754. #757 Blind Squirrel FCD
    March 26, 2009

    Getting back on point, everyone is so harsh on “Christians”… they’re this, they’re that. You know what though, they’re just like you.

    No, they are not like ‘us’. “We” can tell the difference between a 28 week old fetus and a child. Moran.

  755. #758 John Phillips, FCD
    March 26, 2009

    Congrats Doctor MAJeff :)

  756. #759 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 26, 2009

    I need food and drink for my celebration!

    The grog is almost 4 days old by now. I suspect one tankard and you will be under the table. Let’s get started.

    MAJeff, you have been through a long ordeal, which in the middle felt like a long tunnel with no end in sight and the walls closing in on you. You have successfully come out the other side to sunshine, blue skies, and greenery. May your days be happy and productive. To Dr. MAJeff (raises fuming tankard).

  757. #760 SC, OM
    March 26, 2009

    Now, where’s my fetus sashimi?! We could also blend a few of ‘em up for mighty good martinis.

    That was supposed to be a surprise for tomorrow! Damn! Who spilled the beans?

  758. #761 storkdok
    March 26, 2009

    I grew up with the families who were killed in this plane crash. We went to the same schools and our parents were friends. We went to the same college and university for medical school and dental school. They were wonderful, loving human beings.

    I saw the loonies like Gingi picketing the Feldkamp house. This is but one reason I no longer am a theist.

    The families who died were Christians. They were Seventh-day Adventist, the church I was brought up in. I never heard them ever utter a harsh word about others because of their beliefs. They had true friendships with many of us who are no longer theists, our deconversions didn’t bother them.

    I just want to share some information about them and some pictures of them that are on an SDA website. If you would like to see their faces and read a little about them, here is one place:

    http://news.adventist.org/2009/03/in-us-three-adventis.html

    It is despicable that someone would use this as “proof of God’s punishment”.

  759. #762 Silvio Guspini
    March 26, 2009

    i say we nail every christian on a cross if he refuses to denounce his god and religion.

    after all, this how Christianity was dealing with their “enemies”. so it must be a language they understand. all religion should be banned. dont give me that “but we live in a free country”-crap. its dangerous and offensive. its an insult to human civilization. clearly trying to treat these subjects with fairness and decency doesnt work. this is a language they do not understand.

    so. hunt them down. one by one. nail them on a cross. burn them. lets get this crap over with. i am sick and tired of all this.

    better an end with pain, then endless pain. and these christian freaks ARE an endless pain in everybody’s butt.

  760. #763 Drosera
    March 26, 2009

    Simon has been banned. What he’s doing now is intentionally morphing his email address with every post to avoid the filters — and no, I can’t simply ban on the word “simon”. I’m reduced to simply cleaning up his garbage every morning.

    If feel sorry for you, PZ, having to mop up the filthy ejaculations of Simon the Banned. It’s a pity though that in this way the numbering of the posts keeps changing all the time. Can?t you just replace his drivel with something like Comment deleted?

    By the way, I’m happy that you survived the crash relatively unharmed. Must have been scary, even if you don’t fear God.

  761. #764 Kendo
    March 26, 2009

    Shonny asked:

    More a question for them of getting their heads out of their own asses, isn’t it?

    At least by now they know their heads will actually fit into the recommended respective orifices.

  762. #765 SC, OM
    March 26, 2009

    Thank you for the link, storkdok. My condolences.

  763. #766 John Phillips, FCD
    March 26, 2009

    My condolence storkdok and you’re right, it is enough of a tragedy without the ghouls trying to profit from it and making it worse.

  764. #767 frog
    March 26, 2009

    Raven: A lot of the evil I’ve seen in the past has been mostly just psychotics who really aren’t evil, just crazy, bad genetics and bad brain chemistry.

    What’s the difference? Don’t fall into monotheism’s keenest trap, believing that the difference between “mind” and “brain” is one of substance, rather than level of analysis.

  765. #768 phantomreader42
    March 26, 2009

    Joel Spencer @ #745:

    I’m not condoning anyone’s “behavior”

    Bullshit. This is a lie. I bet the very next sentence is going to be the start of some screed in favor of forced birth, trampling the fresh corpses of children carrying your “pro-life” banner.

    Joel’s very next sentence:

    However, I find it odd that you all seem to quickly find such great fault with someone’s writings yet see nothing wrong with killing millions of unborn children.

    Do I know how to call ‘em or what? :P

    Joel, the forced-birth movement doesn’t give a flying fuck about “unborn children”. That’s just an excuse. All your sick cult wants with this is to control other people’s lives. And as the despicable Gingi makes clear, you’re willing to sink to any depths of depravity to do it.

    More of Joel’s lies:

    I’m sure not on any Christian bandwagons, nor am I here to “convert” anyone to anything. It’s just troubling to me to see such outraged responses to someone’s words, yet the actions of killing human beings is a non-issue completely.

    Yes, you ARE on a “christian bandwagon”. The entire forced-birth lobby is nothing more than that.

    An embryo is not a human being. A blastocyst is not a human being. A brainless (literally) clump of tissue is not a human being. There is nothing that could be reasonably called a human being by any sane definition until months into the pregnancy.

    But you have no interest in sane definitions. And you have no interest in human beings. All you care about is controlling other people. You want to force women to carry unwanted fetuses to term as a punishment for not being like you. Can you imagine the kind of life a child would have, if its entire existence was treated as having no more meaning than a PUNISHMENT for its mother? What kind of hartless devil are you to want to inflict that on a generation?

    Joel, if you actually give a flying fuck about “unborn children”, here’s a challenge for you. Do something for the children that are already here. Sell everything you own, and donate it to poor mothers who can’t afford to take care of their own kids, much less the others you want to FORCE them to have. Make birth control freely available, so there won’t be as many unwanted embryos in the first place. Fund research to remove unborn fetuses intact from mothers who can’t support them, and implant those “unborn children” you care so much about into forced-birth advocates like yourself. Yes, even the men, it’s just a matter of developing the technology. If self-proclaimed “pro-life” people had to put their own bodies and assets on the line and carry the unborn children they whine about to term, your movement would be dead inside of nine months.

    Joel whining:

    Everyone shouts about the rights of the mother… who stands up for the rights of the child that is destroyed before even having a voice?

    What you complain about being destroyed is not a “child” by any sane definition of the term.

    Joel, when does a woman cease to be a human being? you are acting like there is only one human being involved. At what point in a pregnancy does a woman lose all human rights and become nothing more than an incubator? The official position of the forced-birth movement is that this happens at conception. I bet you’re too much of a coward to admit that.

    Joel the lying cheating thief, whining again:

    Getting back on point, everyone is so harsh on “Christians”… they’re this, they’re that. You know what though, they’re just like you. Herein lies the problem – they lie, they cheat, they steal, they speak out of their own carnal minds… just like you.

    Speak for yourself, lying cheating thief Joel. I don’t use fresh corpses as ammunition. You and your cult do.

    Christians are a politically active group. They have an effect on the world. Gingi’s article was published in, and defended by, “the nation’s leading distributor of religious press releases“. That’s their own words. This is where CNN, The AP, The Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal get their religous news. This is the public face of christianity. And it is ugly.

    If you, as a christian, have a problem with what christian leaders do in your name, get some better fucking leaders! But you really don’t. Because you, Joel Spencer, defend this evil, even as you lie and say you don’t.

  766. #769 phantomreader42
    March 26, 2009

    raven @ #681:

    It isn’t all bad though. Virtually all normal people including most other xians are repulsed by these living demons.

    Raven, these aren’t demons. Check your Monster Manual. They’re clearly devils.

    There’s an important distinction, and it’s a matter of alignment. Demons are defined as Chaotic Evil. That alignment is characterized by a disdain for both social order and the well-being of others. A Chaotic Evil villain revels in random destruction, spreading pain and suffering with no rhyme or reason. The kind of monster who would set fire to an orphanage just to watch it burn.

    Devils, on the other hand, are Lawful Evil. This alignment values law and order, but cares nothing for freedom or compassion. A Lawful Evil villain is a classic tyrant, seeking to force others into slavery, enforcing order through fear and cruelty. This is the type that would brutally murder a man’s family for the slightest imagined transgression. Trying to rewrite the law to force their beliefs on others is clearly LE, not CE.

    It’s quite obvious, the christian god has an alignment of Lawful Evil. Domains would probably include Evil, Law, Death, Domination, Destiny, Hatred, and Greed. Planar allies might include Mind Flayers (something has to extract the brains from followers). Probably has an alliance with Hextor.

  767. #770 KI
    March 26, 2009

    Hey Joel? As a believer, I lied stole and cheated. When I deconverted, I quit behaving like that. I may not be perfect, but I try, which is more than “God forgives me” types ever do.

  768. #771 frog
    March 26, 2009

    KI: Wasn’t it Gandhi who said he wasn’t a Christian because he didn’t want to be forgiven for his sins, he wanted to stop sinning?

  769. #772 KI
    March 26, 2009

    Frog, haven’t heard that before, must file in useable quotes file, thanks.

  770. #773 aratina
    March 26, 2009

    Storkdok, I’m sorry for your loss. It makes no difference what their beliefs were, it was a horrible tragedy, which compels me to respond to Silvio Guspini–I mean Pastor Chris Fox, who posted a most heinous diatribe after you.

    You’re not fooling anyone Fox (and I don’t care if you really are Pastor Fox or not, you’re still a dangerously blithe imbecile for posting comment #763). Atheists like me don’t believe in gods, but we aren’t trying to force anyone to stop believing. What we are doing is pointing out that atheism is a valid position to live by, trying to get others to think more critically about their religious and supernatural beliefs, and trying to eviscerate the political power that religious and superstitious beliefs hold over human societies. So I don’t agree one bit with anything Silvio posted and I hope Silvio apologizes for posting it on this thread or gets paid a visit from the FBI as mentioned by others above.

  771. #774 frog
    March 26, 2009

    KI: I believe it’s from his autobiography, mostly meant as a teaching book for young people. He was in England in this episode getting his law degree, and lived with a Christian family that keep trying to convert him.

    He finally gets fed up with the arrogance, ignorance and explicit belief in their cultural superiority — and particularly the principle of salvation by faith alone as they continue to be pricks and hypocrites yet proclaim the superiority of their faith.

  772. #775 Endor
    March 26, 2009

    joel, thank for being so clear about being a misogynist. it helps to make clear that you and your imaginary-baby-obesses cohorts are just busybody bigots. FOAD, kthxbai!

  773. #776 phantomreader42
    March 26, 2009

    Hey, “Silvo”, aka pastor Fox or one of his imitators! Isn’t your imaginary god supposed to have some sort of problem with bearing false witness? Amazing how godbots can’t bring themselves to see anything wrong with Lying For Jesus™. Just another sign of what worship of an imaginary tryant does to the conscience.

  774. #777 Geek
    March 26, 2009

    “Silvio Guspini”, #763, wrote:

    i say we nail every christian on a cross if he refuses to denounce his god and religion.

    after all, this how Christianity was dealing with their “enemies”. so it must be a language they understand. all religion should be banned. dont give me that “but we live in a free country”-crap. its dangerous and offensive. its an insult to human civilization. clearly trying to treat these subjects with fairness and decency doesnt work. this is a language they do not understand.

    so. hunt them down. one by one. nail them on a cross. burn them. lets get this crap over with. i am sick and tired of all this.

    better an end with pain, then endless pain. and these christian freaks ARE an endless pain in everybody’s butt.

    It’s telling, isn’t it, that we can immediately tell that this was written by someone religious.

  775. #778 Jamie M
    March 26, 2009

    This is tragic. I can’t believe that someone would actually spin this story for their own pety pursuits. As a Christian (a very non-traditional Christian) I can say that I completely agree with this quote:

    Don’t ever preach at me about Christian morality: I’ve seen it, and it is empty of love for humanity, replaced with sanctimonious idolatry and commitment to dead, dumb superstition.

    As a Christian with different thoughts on the bible, “creation,” and much more, I have yet to be welcomed with open arms and doors, nay, I have been shunned and kicked out of many churches. Christian morality and humanity is a joke, thank you for exposing more and more of it each day.

  776. #779 Silvio Guspini
    March 26, 2009

    guys, i am NOT the pastor person. nor am i religious. i really am NOT this guy. i use my real name, and i live in italy.

    and everything i said, i stand behind 100%.

    so go, try sending the fbi to me. that’ll be fun :D

    seriously. the christian churches have been killing people for centuries over crap nobody with a sane mind believes in. time for payback. give them their own medicine. judge these lowlifes with their own standards.

    its also very interesting that you have this kind of nonsense behavior only in the US. in countries like italy, where the damn thing comes from (talking about christian church as we know it today) you wont find lunatics attacking abortion and defending double standards. thats an american thing apparently.

    anyway. one more time geniuses: i am not pastor pete or whatever his name his. and i did not post the above play a weird double agent game. this is what i think.
    religion has to be banned from question regarding everything worldly. everything. schools, government, public debate regarding moral issues.
    and if i am not wrong, your founding fathers specifically pointed that out in your constitution, right?

  777. #780 aratina
    March 26, 2009

    Silvio, you are wrong. Goodbye.

  778. #781 Tinman's Lament
    March 26, 2009

    Wow! Nearly 800 comments, most of them from those purporting to be atheists. I have to say, that if the level of self-righteous indignation expressed on this thread is the current status of atheistic morality, then we have a long, heavy slog in front of us.

    There is very little that triggers the hyper-emotional reaction of “holier-than-thou” superiority of my fellow atheists than a bone-to-the-dogs thrown by PZ Myers.

    I don’t think there is anyone as effective at stirring up the atheistic “root of all evil” ditto-heads than our “godless liberal” host. All PZ has to post is something along the lines of “I hate Xtians” and the wanna-bees fall all over themselves proclaiming “I hate ‘em more!,” “No! I hate ‘em even more,” “No! No! You’re wrong *I* hate ‘em more than all of you combined!” each one trying to outdo the last, perhaps in some quest to be ?blessed? by Saint Myers.

    The irony of atheists calling for Gingi to be banished to a lake of eternal hellfire seems to be lost in the spittle-flecked feeding frenzy of moral rectitude spewing forth from those on this thread who – through some convoluted version of reasoning I have yet to decipher – claim to be atheist, like me.

    Other than their purported godlessness, I have no idea what makes the PZ-minion-style atheists similar to the rest of us who build our atheistic morality on a clear-headed rationalism. I hope someone can show me why it is wrong for Gingi and her ilk to take joy in the sorrow of the surviving families of the crash victims, but it is OK for “atheists” to wish for eternal torture for Gingi and her cohorts.

    I predict four main reactions to my post:

    1. Willful ignorance, in the chest-puffing “whatchu talkin’ ’bout?” sort of way.

    2. Those who will claim that I am being ironic for pointing out their touted moral superiority – saying that I am, therefore, acting morally superior.

    3. Those who will “pooh-pooh” the overreactions of other “atheists” as being emotionally justified, considering the circumstances.

    4. Personal attacks of some sort or other.

    There is another response, that of the very few people who tried to be the ?voice in the wilderness? and call for calm, reason, and toning-down of the hate-spewed rhetoric, but they were met with one of the four reactions listed above.

    To #1 I say: Even if this post is the only one in this thread,

    People like Gingi Edmonds make me wish that Hell existed, but I doubt even that inferno could thaw her cold, shrivelled[sic] heart

    The fact is that there is no moral difference between an atheist making this wish for a theist than the other way around. Also, that there are very few commentators on this thread condemning post #19 and the other posts like it, shows how little self-restraint some atheists practice when the mob starts waving its pitchforks.

    #2 is just a form of sophistry.

    #3 are the enablers, who deserve no more consideration than the ?moderate? Xtians that ignore the freaky-fringe types like Gingi.

    #4 merits no further discussion.

    The only posters on this thread who deserve any kind of praise are the other atheists who have been trying to throw some water on this overheated orgy of Xtian bashing, trying to remind their cohort atheists that slathering at the mouth over some deranged comments from a nut like Gingi really does nothing to advance whatever it is that amounts to an ?atheist cause,? a cause that one would hope is founded on the virtues of reason, self-control, compassion, honesty, humility, and justice.

    All we can do is keep trying, I suppose.

  779. #782 Silvio Guspini
    March 26, 2009

    No aratina, i am not. just because you dont like to hear it, doesnt make it wrong.

    but goodbye to you, if you are leaving that is.

  780. #783 Janine, Insulting Sinner
    March 26, 2009

    But Oz never gave nothing to the Tinman
    That he didn’t
    Didn’t already have.

  781. #784 Knockgoats
    March 26, 2009

    Concern troll@782 is concerned. Yaaaaawn.

  782. #785 frog
    March 26, 2009

    Tinman — I think you’re full of shit. That’s both a personal attack, and a rational analysis.

    A) Super-rationality in the face of evil is just a sophistic avoidance of the reality of those who wish to organize a theocratic state. It’s an arrogance that hides a mealy-mouthed acquiesence to these real, organized and powerful groups. Morality is real, get used to it.

    B) Setting up strawmen and then knocking them down as 1) 2) 3) 4) is just a completely dishonest, unintellectual and pathetic. Instead of taking a series of specific posts and arguing them, you simply create a series of caricatures, knock them down, and now you will proceed to say “Oh, every response falls into 1, 2, 3 or 4″. It’s a perfectly appropriate response to such blatant bad-faith arguing to simply insult the poster, preferably in rhyme.

    C) Did you bother to distinguish between Christian-bashing, as an individual bashing, Gingi bashing, as an individual who has full responsibility for her claims and beliefs, and Christianity bashing, the reasoned critique of an ideology? I guess that wouldn’t fit with B), which is that you are simply creating false dichotomies to argue in bad-faith.

    Tinman, if anything you act as an enabler by refusing to take on the greater evil, pusillanimously attacking non-existent enemies. You’re not the Tinman — I just can’t decide whether you’re the Lion or the Scarecrow.

  783. #786 Knockgoats
    March 26, 2009

    OK Guspini, if you do really mean what you said@763 you are an evil, disgusting, psychopathic sadist. Fuck off.

  784. #787 Silvio Guspini
    March 26, 2009

    Knockgoats: thank you. apparently i am on the right track then :D

  785. #788 Iron Soul
    March 26, 2009

    @storkdok #762

    Thanks for the post. I’m sort of suprised that it took almost 800 comments before anyone mentioned the fact that the Feldkamps were Christians. I too share the SDA upbringing. A large number of my wife’s friends know the family and will be attending the funeral.

    I’m sure that if this Gingi person actually knew these people they would have many beliefs in common. It is proof of her fanatism and sociopathy that it only take a single thing to trigger this amount of hate.

  786. #789 phantomreader42
    March 26, 2009

    Geek @ #778, on “silvio”:

    It’s telling, isn’t it, that we can immediately tell that this was written by someone religious.

    It’s pretty much a dead givaway.

    “Silvio’s” bullshit is just tailor-made to fit into the fundies’ persecution fantasies. It reads EXACTLY like the kind of strawman atheist that godbots conjure up in their own diseased minds. It’s possible there could be an atheist out there who really does fantasize about mass murder, but such a person would likely end up in a psych ward, religion gives sociopathy a free pass. Since christian sociopaths vastly outnumber atheist ones, it’s simple probablility. Especially given that it’s already known that at least one christian has been trolling atheist forums with these kinds of strawmen. So it’s just a matter of noting the difference between an explanation that’s possible but highly unlikely, and something known to happen on a regular basis.

  787. #790 phantomreader42
    March 26, 2009

    Knockgoats @ #787:

    OK Guspini, if you do really mean what you said@763 you are an evil, disgusting, psychopathic sadist. Fuck off.

    I’d say he’s an evil, disgusting, psychopathic sadist even if he’s just a christian troll posing as an atheist strawman and DIDN’T mean it.

  788. #791 Silvio Guspini
    March 26, 2009

    hey, buddy. is that the world you live in? you imagine things, and thats a fact for you then? who is the foundie here, you or me?

    again: not religious. never was, never will be. if you doubt that, why dont you contact me on gmail, guspini@gmail.com and we both discuss this paranoia thing of yours, ok? (i will probably get hate mail now, but i dont care)

    but stop calling me christian or strawman. i am neither, and in my world thats fucking insulting. trust me, you wont find anyone more anti-religous then me.

    what’s maybe true , that i seem to be a little bit more aggressive when it comes to religion.

    so please, stop this “dead give away” BS. judgmental, brainless prick. i start to think i am the only one here you is actually NOT a religious person.

  789. #792 Geek
    March 26, 2009

    “Silvio Guspini”, #792:

    hey, buddy. is that the world you live in? you imagine things, and thats a fact for you then? who is the foundie here, you or me?

    again: not religious. never was, never will be. if you doubt that, why dont you contact me on gmail, guspini@gmail.com and we both discuss this paranoia thing of yours, ok?

    That sounded quite threatening. I’m upgrading my diagnosis to “devoutly religious”.

  790. #793 OliviaB.
    March 26, 2009

    We can’t deny the facts. They relate to each other and it seems almost unreal – like something from a movie. Regardless, people died and anyone’s death is a tragedy – born/unborn, child/adult. My heart does go out to the dead.
    ———
    OliviaB.
    Seattle DUI lawyer

  791. #794 Silvio Guspini
    March 26, 2009

    actually, i am just kidding with you.

    i am of course a christian straw man who infiltrated this secret hide-out of non-christian fundamentalists, who fight the lonely fight for their right to total idiocy outside any church.

    is that better? happy now.
    you guys actually proved that its not imperative to be christian in order to be a completely lose your mind.

    and famous last words, before i walk away and find a sane discussion somewhere else, that is not filled with morons pretending to be something and accusing each other of whatnot:

    arguing on the internet is like participating in the special olympics. even if you win, you are still retarded.

    i have been part of discussions like this for quite some time now, but this bunch here beats everything. its idiots like you people here, who give us a bad name, seriously.

    so long, morons.

  792. #795 phantomreader42
    March 26, 2009

    Tammi the troll @ #636:

    I’m sorry that this was written,but you cannot judge every Christian or Christianity on this article.

    Yes, you can judge christianity on this article. A christian wrote it. A nationally recognized christian media service defended and celebrated it. And worst of all, no christian organization of comparable size has come out against it. If this vile exploitation of a tragedy were in some way incompatible with christianity, christian leaders would be saying so. They aren’t. If you, as a christian, object to that, get some better leaders.

    Face it, people like Gingi Edmonds are the public face of American christianity. The people who make their living claiming to be doing your god’s work, spreading your god’s word across the nation, are the same kind of people who used the 9/11 attacks as ammunition against anyone they didn’t like. The same kind of people who condone and celebrate abortion clinic bombings. The same kind of people who lie about science to children. The same kind of people who use gays or atheists or blacks or jews as scapegoats to gain political power. That’s the kind of people who represent you, tammi. If you don’t like it, do something about it. Get your congregation together, and make it clear that these people do not speak for you, and they and their campaigns will not get one penny of support from any of you so long as you live. Until you do this, until you at least TRY to stem the tide of foul refuse that passes for christian discourse in this country, you, YOU TAMMI, are part of the problem. You give shelter to the radicals by demanding underserved respect for your faith.

    tammi shows how jesus failed:

    Jesus says many beautiful things and because of whatever we see as bad…abortion or writing a hurtful letter of emotion, that is why Jesus came. Not to condemn but to save us.

    Then he did a pretty shitty job of saving us, didn’t he? Since this evil he supposedly came to save us from goes on, often committed in his name.

    tammi outlines the utter failure of christianity:

    We are not to judge but love our enemies, do good to those who hate us, bless those who curse us and pray for those who mistreat us.

    Then get back to us when even 1% of christians with public platforms actually use them to do those things. You’ve got a lot of work to do.

    tammi shows her arrogance:

    I have friends who are still trying to get over the decision of getting rid of their babies.

    Yes, it can be a very difficult, heart-rending decision. What the fuck makes you think YOU are qualified to make that decision for every woman on the fucking planet?

    tammi makes an idiotic request:

    Please consider Christianlity and having a relationship with Christ.

    Why? Your imaginary friend has done nothing, absolutely NOTHING, to stop the evil that is perpetrated by his followers, in his name. Given this, he must be either nonexistent, indifferent, powerless, or evil. None of those are qualities I want in a relationship.

  793. #796 Geek
    March 26, 2009

    “Silvio Guspini”, #795:

    … before i walk away and find a sane discussion somewhere else, that is not filled with morons pretending to be something …

    Hypocrisy too! Updating the diagnosis to “clergy with suspected papacy”.

    Tonight I shall raise a glass to your meteoric rise through the league table of Most Amusing Religious Trolls. Cheers!

  794. #797 AnthonyK
    March 26, 2009

    What a magnificently bad-tempered thread!

    Other than their purported godlessness, I have no idea what makes the PZ-minion-style atheists similar to the rest of us who build our atheistic morality on a clear-headed rationalism.

    Fuckwit. Bye bye! *Waves slowly, a tear in his eye*
    Number 4, I believe.
    You are hardly likely to find the caring, sharing side of atheism on a thread about an anti-abortionist gloating over the death of some real, live children.
    As for the fucking tone of our replies generally (and I am an unrepentant PZ sycophant – though only when he agrees with me) – if you don’t like it – or can’t handle it – then fuck right off.
    This thread has already been invaded by religious apologists who deserve everything we throw at them. You’re on the bus, or you’re off the bus – but in neither sense do any of us care one teeny bit.
    Moral Coward.

  795. #798 Maargen
    March 26, 2009

    Bill Dauphin@569:

    You’re right, Bill, I do agree with you for the most part, but for the sake of entertainment I’ll try to find an area of disagreement.

    I can’t disagree with what you say about the motivation of the majority of the anti-choice crowd. They certainly do want to force their irrational views of “morality” on everyone. Even when they end up advocating behavior that actually makes ethical sense I see this as an accident – and an aberration. This, I think is why so many pro-choicers argue with the motivation, rather than the main argument, which you state so well:

    The only even arguably defensible justification for forcing a woman to continue an unwanted or dangerous pregnancy is the assertion that the fetus is a person with full rights.

    First of all, I don’t think it’s right to equate a “dangerous” pregnancy to an “unwanted” pregnancy. If I shoot a spouse who is in the act of beating me to the point of endangering my health/life, it isn’t viewed the same as shooting one who is endangering my income level.

    Also, one doesn’t become a person with “full rights” until the age of 21 in this country. Before that, rights are doled out according to age. So we’re not talking about “full rights”, we’re talking about the right to be alive. By virtue of what is that right accorded or withheld? If both the fetus and host are human, then how does one human justify ending the life of another? Obviously, if one human is endangering the life of another, then self-defense is fully justified (unfortunately for the fetus, this only works one way). As a humanist, I don’t feel that parents have the right to abuse or kill their children. Maybe the state doesn’t have the right to force a woman to take care of her child. But if the woman, knowing that she can’t afford a child, kills it at birth, there’s no talk about the treatment of the child being left up to the conscience of the woman. The state feels it has the right to punish the woman for the harm done to one of its citizens. If on Sunday it’s a fetus and on Monday it’s a baby I can see the practical difference, but what exactly is the difference from an ethical point of view? Is the fetus human or not? Should the state have laws in place to protect it from harm or not? Does it only become human after birth, or should we not protect fetuses because it’s too inconvenient or difficult to do so? These, to me, are ethical issues, but all I hear from the religionists is some hogwash about a “soul”, and all I hear from pro-choicers are about how crazy and meddling the religionists are.

    What’s wierd is that if I believed that at some point, the fetus acquires some “magical” or supernatural element that turns it from a lump of tissue into a human being, then it would make sense to me that until that point I don’t have to treat it as human. But I don’t believe this. So based on what do we determine when the mother is allowed to end life, and when she isn’t? Is it preposterous to feel that a fetus whose brain hasn’t developed yet is still a human, just at an earlier stage of development? If this is a matter of conscience, why should people who feel that their conscience calls for them to protect the unborn human from the human carrying it be attacked, reviled or ridiculed for that argument (as opposed to ignoring the argument and attacking their motivation)?

    Many Nazis killed Jews (or allowed them to be killed) because their consciences told them that Jews were sub-human. Their arguments for this claim didn’t hold water. If I’m being told that it’s okay to kill fetuses because they’re sub-human, I need to hear the arguments for that claim. After all, some of my best friends used to be fetuses.

  796. #799 Stu
    March 26, 2009

    If I’m being told that it’s okay to kill fetuses because they’re sub-human, I need to hear the arguments for that claim.

    Take blastocyst out of womb. Put blastocyst on table. Attempt conversation with blastocyst. Attemt to breast-feed blastocyst. Dress blastocyst. Burp blastocyst.

    Also, look up Godwin’s Law.

  797. #800 aratina
    March 26, 2009

    At least we now know who to collectively scold when Boteach, Durston, and D’Souza raise the Stalin/Pol Pot/Mao anti-religious genocides–>Silvio Guspini of Italy.

  798. #801 Leigh Williams
    March 26, 2009

    Storkdok, my sincerest condolences for your loss. People all over the country are deeply saddened by this tragedy. And we’re all just appalled that, in this worst of all possible times, human vermin like Gingi Edmonds come crawling out from under their rocks to intrude on Dr. and Mrs. Feldcamp’s grief.

  799. #802 CJO
    March 26, 2009

    If I’m being told that it’s okay to kill fetuses because they’re sub-human

    But you’re not. You’re being told that the determination of whether it’s “okay” should be made by one person and one person only: the woman concerned, who has the inviolable right to control her own body and to direct her own medical care.

  800. #803 SillyWabbit
    March 26, 2009

    “and having a relationship with Christ.”

    Who gets to be the top, and who gets to be the bottom?

  801. #804 anti-supernaturalist
    March 26, 2009

    ** Christianity is the practice of nihilism — Nietzsche **

    For 2,000 years one vile hallmark of xianity has remained its hatred of natural science (world) and of skeptical philosophy (reason). The Stoics and Epicureans of Athens laughed at Paul of Tarsus when he spoke to them (50-60 CE). Paul’s anti-intellectual rejoinder is still holy writ:

    20-Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21-For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22-Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23-but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles . . . . 1Cor1 20-23 NIV

    In short, Paul and his fellow slum dwellers created a god glorifying their nihilistic valuations.

    27-But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28-He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things?and the things that are not?to nullify the things that are . . . . 1Cor1:26-28 NIV

    Xianity still appeals to those who believe themselves mistreated. To those in whom resentment surges. To those who must punish their guilty selves.

    ?Xianity is the practice of nihilism.? Directed inward, hatred of self. Directed outward, hatred of others and of nature.

    Unquenchable hatred arises not from some peripheral ideological source — it spews from Paul’s life-negating worldview, tarted up as the religion of “love”.

    anti-supernaturalist

  802. #805 MAJeff, OM
    March 26, 2009

    Who gets to be the top, and who gets to be the bottom?

    Everyone knows Jesus is a cannibalism bottom: “This is my body. Take. Eat.” I mean, c’mon.

  803. #806 Rick
    March 26, 2009

    The accident was tragic and is not a lesson from God for anyone to learn from, but abortion is the termination of a developing human life, and is just as horrid.

  804. #807 anti-supernaturalist
    March 26, 2009

    ** social control in the name of dead gods

    ? the concept of a person is not a biological one

    ?Person? won?t be found in a medical dictionary. A human being becomes a person when a culture bestows ?membership? on someone formerly outside the group. Considering newborns in traditional cultures, not all who are born get chosen to be persons.

    ? The real issue is control —

    male domination of women, including dismissing their rights over their own bodies. By trying to extend the concept of a person backward to cover fertilized human eggs and zygotes, male legislators hope to return control to the paternalistic ?norm? promoted by so-called great monotheisms — judaism, xianity, and islam.

    anti-supernaturalist

  805. #808 Stu
    March 26, 2009

    but abortion is the termination of a developing human life, and is just as horrid.

    Let me get this straight: to you, the death of a bunch of living, breating individuals, some of them children, is on the same level as removing a clump of unwanted cells that maybe, someday MIGHT become a person?

    This makes sense to you?

  806. #809 Desert Son
    March 26, 2009

    Rick at #807:

    but abortion is the termination of a developing human life, and is just as horrid.

    Then why does god (if you believe in one or any) or nature (if you don’t believe in gods) do it all the time, every day, across every group of people, by failing, as cervantes pointed out in post #2 of the “God, abortionist” thread (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/03/god_abortionist.php) to implant nearly half of all gametes, subsequently flushing them out with a woman’s regular menstrual cycle?

    Also, MAJeff, OM, PhD at #806:

    cannibalism bottom

    Paging Spinal Tap. Paging Spinal Tap, white courtesy phone. If you’re looking for a new album title . . . .

    No kings,

    Robert

  807. #810 Shannon
    March 26, 2009

    … I often lurk, ’round these parts. That said:

    I’ve read most of the thread – and it intrigues me that most of those coming here to defend G. immediately assume that every single person here stands against their pro-life creed, and that in fact the negative comments directed her way have something to do with that.

    It’s likely most here /do/ stand against it – but no, I think the comments directed her way are directed as they are because, frankly, what she said was reprehensible. “God is punishing him, see, we’re right!” went the mantra. And you all nodded along, you defenders, and you say, “Yup! God’s awesome like that – ” … only using platitudes that show how /sorry/ you are.

    And you’re not. Your real sympathy is nonexistent. You no more care about that man’s children than you actually do about all of those aborted children you protest.

    You see, if you /cared/, you wouldn’t be standing out front waving bloody signs. You’d be adopting unwanted children. You’d give money to adoption centers and causes. You’d make a point of filling your home and your lives to the limits of your financial capacity to take care of those apparently unwanted children, and you’d offer a nonjudgemental alternative to those confused and scared young girls you like to yell at as they walk down the sidewalk.

    According to http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/ib_0599.html – a quickly looked up source, that may or may not even be accurate – 40 in 1000 pregnancies are aborted /for some reason/. There’s no indication as to what percentage of those are medically necessary – it simply includes all procedures, from fallopian tube pregnancies to last-trimester D&C.

    Even so – 40 in 1000. How easy would it be to offer every one of those children a home if every pro-lifer opened their doors to /one/ of these children? How much spare capacity would you have? How many children could you save then?

    But how many have you? How many adopted little ones are in your household? How many times have you gone in front of a judge and taken responsibility for your own beliefs by giving one of these unwanted kids a home?

    I’ll go out on a limb and say you haven’t. So how is what you’re doing – yelling, preaching rage, frightening these girls, picketing a man’s house – how is that /Christian/? Opening your home is. Giving those kids a shot by being a family to them is.

    You’re not doing that.

    I’ve been security for a planned parenthood clinic. I”ve been attacked, I’ve fought back. I’ve watched twenty-year-olds be mandhandled and intimidated by protestors, ca