Pharyngula

I tend to think that most religious people are not interested in flying planes into buildings or making themselves a belt out of dynamite, but that doesn’t excuse them: they still make irrational decisions with evil consequences, they are simply a bit more remote and indirect. The same people who would be horrified at the idea of personally lynching someone for blasphemy have no problem with praying that someone else will do the job for them, as we all saw in the reaction to that little cracker incident last year. One of the most revolting examples of this principle at work is the recent attempts to create a legal justification for imprisoning and killing homosexuals in Uganda, a situation which, as it turns out, was fomented by American evangelical homophobes. This is not to excuse Ugandans, who were apparently primed to commit violence against gays already, but it was our preachers who sparked the flame.

For three days, according to participants and audio recordings, thousands of Ugandans, including police officers, teachers and national politicians, listened raptly to the Americans, who were presented as experts on homosexuality. The visitors discussed how to make gay people straight, how gay men often sodomized teenage boys and how “the gay movement is an evil institution” whose goal is “to defeat the marriage-based society and replace it with a culture of sexual promiscuity.”

That’s pretty much standard anti-gay rhetoric here in the US; we’re inured to it, and unless you’re a victim of it, it’s fairly easy to ignore it — which is why the evangelical haters are still allowed to babble on the news. These wretched liars for Jesus have their audience that loves to hear their nonsense about gays as predators on young boys, being evil and hating heterosexual marriage, and all that other dishonest crap, including their bizarre touting of ‘cures’, but at least we in the US also have vocal proponents of equality and civil liberties. We just need more of them.

In Uganda, though, that rhetoric and false assumption of authority led to horrid abuses of civil rights, like the anti-homosexuality bill. At least now, though, we can get specific and name names for the people responsible for inciting hatred of gays in Africa.

The three Americans who spoke at the conference — Scott Lively, a missionary who has written several books against homosexuality, including “7 Steps to Recruit-Proof Your Child”; Caleb Lee Brundidge, a self-described former gay man who leads “healing seminars”; and Don Schmierer, a board member of Exodus International, whose mission is “mobilizing the body of Christ to minister grace and truth to a world impacted by homosexuality” — are now trying to distance themselves from the bill.

I’m sure they are trying to get away from the guilt…but the thing is, if you read the anti-gay literature here, that’s the direction they want to go in: the criminalization of sexual acts that they find repugnant, the encouragement of loathing of people who don’t love the people they approve. They want homosexuals to be despised, second-class citizens who don’t have all the rights of good Christian heterosexuals. The only reason they are running from it now is that it happened far faster in Uganda than they expected, and they’re suddenly standing their with a smoking gun and blood on their hands, rather than at a safe remove with the apparatus of the state peeling away the rights from people, one by one.

And look who else is involved, President Obama’s friend:

Uganda has also become a magnet for American evangelical groups. Some of the best known Christian personalities have recently passed through here, often bringing with them anti-homosexuality messages, including the Rev. Rick Warren, who visited in 2008 and has compared homosexuality to pedophilia. (Mr. Warren recently condemned the anti-homosexuality bill, seeking to correct what he called “lies and errors and false reports” that he played a role in it.)

First you associate them with evil, then you disenfranchise them, and only when they’re sufficiently dehumanized do you get to kill them. America’s Christian evangelists are on step one, and working hard on step two; Uganda’s problem is that they moved on to step three a little prematurely.

Comments

  1. #1 Abdul Alhazred
    January 4, 2010

    It’s not enough to say that gay sex is against God’s will and resolve not do it. The idea is to get folks who don’t necessarily support their religious doctrines to hate the same way they do.

    Thus, blood libel about gay pedophila.

  2. #2 Uncle Glenny
    January 4, 2010

    USA! USA!

    Yay for American Evangelical Hegemony!

  3. #3 Michelle R
    January 4, 2010

    It sends shivers down my spine. Fanatism is the scariest thing on this planet.

  4. #4 Givesgoodemail
    January 4, 2010

    Religious whackadoodles have a history of revealing their more radical beliefs in faith-friendly environments, but soft-pedaling them otherwise.
    The Ugandan anti-gay legislation is a good example–incite bloodlust among the faithful and then say, “Some of the nicest people I know are gay” to the general public.
    While hypocrisy isn’t exclusive to the faithful, they have more than their share of it.

  5. #5 dead.letter.boy
    January 4, 2010

    I continue to find myself amazed (and I know I shouldn’t) at the evils of fundamentalism. Guess I’m naive.

  6. #6 Steven Mading
    January 4, 2010

    There’s a bait and switch going on with a lot of religious leaders. It’s something Richard Dawkins likes to point out about the more moderately religious leaders, and it also applies here to the fundies attitude about gays too. When facing a mixed audience of people they know don’t all agree, they pretend to be much more uncertain and honest about their beliefs and present them as mild and humble, and pretend that they only interpret their scriptures as metaphorical allegories and not literal truths. But then when facing an audience of their own congregation, they show their true colors. In that setting, they’re right back to acting like they’re religion is certainly and literally true.

    When talking to a scientist for a TV interview, they claim they don’t really know for sure if the tales of Jesus’s actions are accurate, but when preaching on sunday, they go right back to acting like they’re sure it all happened.

    This alleged embarassment or guilt the fundies who pushed Uganda to these despicable laws are showing is probably much the same phenomenon. They’re not really feeling guilty. They just had to change their tune because they are now facing a skeptical audience unlike while they were lecturing to leaders in Uganda, and they have to show the other face of their two-faced approach. Their only embarassment here is that their careful attempts to keep the two faces of their two-faced approach seperated failed here when information about their private talk to like-minded people leaked out into the general public.

  7. #7 jcfitzner
    January 4, 2010

    From one of those who has been at the receiving end of these lies, I’m surprised they spoke out against the Ugandan bill at all. But clearly they only did so after tons of bad publicity, not because they actually believed it was really wrong, else they’d have repudiated it from the beginning without being coerced into it.

  8. #8 ArmandTanzarian
    January 4, 2010

    As someone who’s just graduated from an American university, I can say that American-style evangelicalism is indeed spreading worldwide, but its primary “weapon” is not the star preacher, but the student. The Uganda law is perhaps the most visible of that part of the operation but really, the real damage to multiculturalism is done through returning students, converted while in college and returning home less as graduates and more as missionaries, if at all. Point is, you don’t even need to send Americans overseas anymore, just convert their expats locally.

    Although its not all bad; that same system turned me into an atheist. ^-^

  9. #9 tsg
    January 4, 2010

    And they say atheism leads to Hitler?

  10. #10 Adrian Tippetts
    January 4, 2010

    By the way – a big thank you to Tim and Jim at BoxTurtleBulletin.com, a blogsite commenting on homophobia. These guys have followed this since march last year, when Exodus International, a major ex-gay ministry that claims to help people ‘leave homosexuality’, came and took part in the conference in Uganda.

    They are the ones who promoted the completely false idea that ‘Change Is Possible’ – it is pseudoscientific nonsense, just like Intelligent Design (the same people supporting ID, support things like this, surprise surprise). Once you get a message like that across, it’s enough justification for people in less educated parts of the world to whip up hatred against LGBT people.

    It’s really high time the message that homosexuality is genetic, and a natural condition was made clear (see my interview with Dr Qazi Rahman on the topic, on PinkNews.co.uk ). The Evangelical religious right in the USA have a lot to answer for.

  11. #11 David Marjanovi?
    January 4, 2010

    PZ Myers ? The Man Who Turned “Pious” Into An Insult.

    I hope it’s catching on.

  12. #12 Lynna, OM
    January 4, 2010

    A group of Uganda pastors that lobbied for the kill-the-gays law was quite upset when they found that Rick Warren had fomented anti-gay attitudes on the one hand, and then disavowed the anti-gay law on the other. The pastors blasted Rick Warren for his opposition Basically, they called Rick Warren for being two-faced. Hey, they believed Warren and the other anti-gay evangelicals, and just took their preachings to a logical conclusion.

    “Your letter has caused great distress and the pastors are demanding that you issue a formal apology for insulting the people of Africa by your very inappropriate bully use of your church and purpose driven pulpits to coerce us into the ‘evil’ of Sodomy and Gaymorrah,” said signers led by Martin Ssempa, a Ugandan pastor who in the past worked with Warren on prevention of AIDS in Africa.
         After initially declining to take a position on the controversial law, Warren broke silence with a letter dated “Christmas 2009″ strongly denouncing the anti-gay law and urging pastors in Uganda to work for its defeat.
         ”As an American pastor, it is not my role to interfere with the politics of other nations, but it IS my role to speak out on moral issues,” Warren wrote. “It is my role to shepherd other pastors who look to me for guidance, and it is my role to correct lies, errors, and false reports when others associate my name with a law that I had nothing to do with, completely oppose, and vigorously condemn.”
         After meeting Dec. 17 in the offices of Uganda’s minister of ethics and integrity, 20 denominational heads formed a task force to respond to Warren’s letter. The group chastised Warren for “unwarranted abuse of our duly elected officials who are in the process of making laws in the fulfillment of their mission.”
         They said they don’t want Uganda to repeat the mistake of Western societies like the United States, “where the issue of homosexuality was treated with kid-gloves as a minor, private issue, but these societies are waking up too late on realizing that the matter affects how their entire society is ran, what children are taught at school and literally what everybody ‘must believe and practice.’”
         They also cited the “take-over by homosexuals of western institutions that should have remained as defenders and protectors of moral integrity in society, particularly the church, to the extent that even evangelical church leaders in America no longer protest when a practicing homosexual is appointed into pastoral leadership in the church.”

    I like the way Warren says it’s not his place to interfere with the politics of other nations, but that is exactly what he and the C-Streeters do, interfere in the politics of other nations. Then, when they get caught doing so, they act all innocent and vow that they never meant any harm.

    You’ll note that the reasons the Ugandans give for the anti-gay law match closely those used in the TV ads that appeared in the USA during anti-gay marriage campaigns. The same lies about gayness being taught in public schools, about gays taking over and pushing their lifestyle in all levels of society, etc. More examples of hate ads

  13. #13 Uncle Glenny
    January 4, 2010

    jefitzer:
    From one of those who has been at the receiving end of these lies, I’m surprised they spoke out against the Ugandan bill at all. But clearly they only did so after tons of bad publicity, not because they actually believed it was really wrong, else they’d have repudiated it from the beginning without being coerced into it.

    Indeed. And it took them quite a while to go from muted semi-private statements of non-support to saying so more publicly.

  14. #14 Akira MacKenzie
    January 4, 2010

    When facing a mixed audience of people they know don’t all agree, they pretend to be much more uncertain and honest about their beliefs and present them as mild and humble, and pretend that they only interpret their scriptures as metaphorical allegories and not literal truths. But then when facing an audience of their own congregation, they show their true colors.

    Heh… I posted something similar recently on the JREF forums and was told that I should become apply for Randi’s Million Dollar Challenge because I obviously had the ability to “read minds.”

    While skeptics are quick to object to the charge of being “denialists,” many seem to be living in denial when it comes to the antics of religionists.

  15. #15 Lynna, OM
    January 4, 2010

    Rachel Maddow should also get a lot of credit for keeping the pressure on people like Rick Warren. She kept the pressure on until the idiots finally coughed up a repudiation of the kill-the-gays bill.

    A note regarding the “hate ads” link in comment #12: The female teacher featured in the Maine ad, Charla Bansley, presents a misleading picture of her credentials. She isn’t a public school teacher. She teaches at a private school, Calvary Chapel Christian School. She’s an anti-gay activist and a leader of the Maine Chapter of Concerned Women of America (CWA). Frank Schubert, the consultant who used mormon money to create the Prop 8 ads for the California campaign, used the same ads in Maine, and the same nice, white, Christian couple, Charla Bansley and her husband.

    Pam’s House Blend has coverage of the “pink-baiting” that Scott Lively practiced in Uganda.

  16. #16 Akira MacKenzie
    January 4, 2010

    Warren’s “repudiation” was actually something along the lines of “I don’t think the Uganda law is right, but we should not forget that gays are an abomination who should be killed.”

  17. #17 hanley.se
    January 4, 2010

    And they say atheism leads to Hitler?

    I remember Scott Lively when he was one of the big guns in Oregon’s anti-gay initiatives in the 1990′s. He went around claiming that the Holocaust happened because the Nazis were all gay. “Shameless” barely begins to describe it.

  18. #18 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    January 4, 2010

    She’s an anti-gay activist and a leader of the Maine Chapter of Concerned Women of America (CWA).

    Their concern is noted and scary.

  19. #19 Sven DiMilo
    January 4, 2010

    anti-gay activist

    It’s fucked up that those words even mean anything together.

  20. #20 Newfie
    January 4, 2010

    Killing albinos and people accused of witchcraft in Uganda wasn’t enough for them, now they have to kill homosexuals as well.

    This is what religion does, and the lying bastards that travel and promote this bullshit should be held responsible and charged with human rights violations, or worse.

  21. #21 Lynna, OM
    January 4, 2010

    A quote from Pam’s House Blend (link in comment #15):

    Personally I don’t buy their huge mea culpa. When you demonize lgbts as predators, just what do you think would happen? Was there some belief that folks would welcome lgbts with open arms after being told that they want to rape children (and bear in mind, I said “rape,” which is bad enough. The fact that Lively and company actually took the time to spin exact details on how gays supposedly rape children – via sodomy – is even worse.)
         I especially don’t buy Lively’s mea culpa. He has specifically made a name for himself by stigmatizing lgbts via either blaming us for the Nazi regime, falsely claiming that we will use hate crimes legislation to have Christians arrested for speaking out against homosexuality, or referring to junk science to make us seem like unhealthy people.
         And this touring of foreign countries to push his anti-gay lies is nothing new to him. In 2007, he toured Russia, spouting the same nonsense he used in Uganda:
         ”Homosexuals have formed real political power today. They submit young people to their ideas, work in high schools and Mass Media very actively. You will hardly notice how those who speak against it begin to be pursued. It has already happened in my country, and I do not want it to happen in Russia . . . The youth must know about “the blue threat” as much as possible. Many countries of the former Soviet Union, which had been the outposts of family values recently, have submitted to the pressure of homosexuals.”
         Later that year, he wrote a letter to Russia, advising the country to make homosexuality illegal:
          . . . criminalize the public advocacy of homosexuality. My philosophy is to leave homosexuals alone if they keep their lifestyle private, and not to force them into therapy if they don’t want it. However, homosexuality is destructive to individuals and to society and it should never publicly promoted. The easiest way to discourage gay pride parades and other homosexual advocacy is to make such activity illegal in the interest of public health and morality .”

    Here’s a video of compiled footage of religious right hate campaigns against gays. Scott Lively appears in the video near the beginning.

  22. #22 Lynna, OM
    January 4, 2010

    Scott Lively, the guy who figured strongly in fanning the flames of Uganda’s proposed anti-gay law, is the head of Abiding Truth Ministries. Abiding Truth Ministries is an officially declared hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

  23. #23 lenoxuss
    January 4, 2010

    Okay, being a rock-solid atheist myself, I feel extremely icky about what I’m about to write. Nonetheless, I like promoting discussion, so?

    What would we say if, in an alternate universe, a Uganda-like country had a similar bill regarding religious persons instead of gays, inspired by some of the stronger “religious people are ipso facto crazy and belive in evil things” rhetoric of some atheists?

    Part of why I feel icky writing that is that I agree that religion is insane and a potent force for evil, and therefore its followers are, to some extent, duped. Yet I support religious freedom without question, as do all the major outspoken atheists of our time (as far as I know).

    I guess I’m answering my own question here?

    Another big difference I can think of is that the Bible (and perhaps the Quran as well) explicitly calls for the stoning of homosexuals, whereas not a single recent rationalist “scripture” has called for even the slightest legal restriction on religion (except for restriction on theocracy, of course). So yeah, um, never mind??

    I guess I’m just trying to figure out what’s going on in Rick Warren’s mind, to what extent he (and the others mentioned in the post) feel guilt here. Christians are going to start (and probably have been) arguing that of course they are against putting gays to death, because then it would be too late to save their souls. Yet surely the threat of such punishment will strongly reduce the incidence of same-sex sex acts, and therefore lead to more salvation? huh?

  24. #24 Menyambal
    January 4, 2010

    Some commenters above point out that fundie wackaloons make nice in public, but really let out the crazy when among friends. I endorse that heartily.

    I went to hear Kent “Dr. Dino” Hovind speak at a local megachurch, and was appalled at the twisted nonsense that he spewed out to his receptive audience, which included a lot of children. Then, the next day, I went to hear him speak at the only non-bible college in town. He was sweetness and light, and didn’t say much.

    That bastard is EVIL!!!

    Maybe he talks nice about gays while he is in jail.

  25. #25 Epikt
    January 4, 2010

    Mr. Warren recently condemned the anti-homosexuality bill, seeking to correct what he called “lies and errors and false reports” that he played a role in it.

    Translation, courtesy of Otter from “Animal House:” “You fucked up. You trusted us.”

  26. #26 raven
    January 4, 2010

    That is why they are called fundamentalist xian death cults.

    Why bother to belong to a death cult if you can’t kill large numbers of people occasionally?

    Might as well be an Anglican or Buddhist or something otherwise.

  27. #27 Strangest brew
    January 4, 2010

    Simple story these three fuckers are evil…simple like so…

    To label them bitter and twisted does not do it justice, they should be publicly and nationally pilloried for their ‘fatwa’ and stand trial for hate speech, cos after all that IS what they do.

    But the judiciary and police are seemingly just as homophobic as the jeebus creeps, so no likelihood there.
    Unless someone stands up for real justice and real truth and insure total condemnation to the limit of what law what there is of it, these evil trolls will just carry on spilling hatred bile and utter lies out of their filthy rhetorical mouths.
    Because apparently their version of ‘respect’ is not the same as everyone else’s!
    But they whine like stuck pigs when they think they do not get their mealy mouthed ‘respect’ in their image.

    After all it is for jeebus, the lies are getting bigger and the claims more sensationalist, they will over do it because their panic will demand it, if they have not already.
    This will come home to roost on their pious heads, because folks WILL be killed over this, and these carrion will envy that right.

    That is their version of respect right there, ‘do what I tell you or I kill you because you are showing me no respect’…lovely little sunbeams…are they not?

    And of course they will find the justification in their tawdry little instruction manual.

  28. #28 https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawnTAiIRbRIpbzIZTtwLDKEdcE21mgEUtpI
    January 4, 2010

    Rev. Rick Warren, who visited in 2008 and has compared homosexuality to pedophilia.

    Well he’s obviously mistaken.

    A) The RCC systematically abuses young boys, and the approves of it (conspiring to commit obstruction of justice, protecting the rapists from prosecution).
    B) The RCC is against homosexuality, it being a mortal sin and all.
    C) The RCC did not stone the boy raping priests to death, the punishment the bible considers reasonable for being gay.

    Thus logically pedophiles seem to be the antithesis to homosexuals. Q.E.D.

    Despite their history of child molestation, I’m pretty certain the RCC and other religious institutions still consider pedophilia to be “worse” than homosexuality, even if the bible disagrees.

  29. #29 raven
    January 4, 2010

    infidel.org:

    [11] In 1995, over 50 Ugandans were killed by witch hunters. … I am heartened that there are a number of African secular humanists, a small minority to be …

    Witch hunts and witch killings are common in Africa. Looks like the death cultists have been busy there.

    The number of witches killed in Africa each year isn’t clear but estimates are 200-1,000. Many of these are children. Probably because adults can and often do own firearms and are capable of shooting back.

    Wonder how long before they start having heretic trials and executions? The 21st century could be a new golden age for Xians. Piles of bodies and rivers of blood just like the good old days.

  30. #30 tsg
    January 4, 2010

    What would we say if, in an alternate universe, a Uganda-like country had a similar bill regarding religious persons instead of gays, inspired by some of the stronger “religious people are ipso facto crazy and belive in evil things” rhetoric of some atheists?

    Part of why I feel icky writing that is that I agree that religion is insane and a potent force for evil, and therefore its followers are, to some extent, duped. Yet I support religious freedom without question, as do all the major outspoken atheists of our time (as far as I know).

    The short answer is that few atheism proponents are advocating the killing of the religious. I think, based on personal experience, most people advocating atheism understand that religion must fall under its own weight, so to speak, and that forcing atheism on people can only fail as they are more likely to be entrenched in their beliefs, even if only in response to what they see (as I do) as being unfair.

    The shorter answer is that religion is wrong for the same reason homophobia is wrong: the evidence doesn’t support it.

  31. #31 Anri
    January 4, 2010

    lenoxuss says (in part):

    What would we say if, in an alternate universe, a Uganda-like country had a similar bill regarding religious persons instead of gays, inspired by some of the stronger “religious people are ipso facto crazy and belive in evil things” rhetoric of some atheists?

    I can’t speak for anyone else here, but I would oppose such a law. As I have said before, the idea of a legal body ruling on the existence of god is both deeply silly and irrelevant.
    The only other reason for such a law would be the assumption that all religious belief, in all people, invariably leads to illegal acts. Obviously this is dead wrong, and so making religious practice illegal based on this premise would be wrong and therefore unsupportable.
    Religion should be tolerated as free speech, and should have no further bearing on legal disputes.
    IMHO, the law’s opinion of religion should simply be: The State does not care what you believe, it should be used neither to persecute nor shield you from following laws to not impinge on the rights of others.

    Part of why I feel icky writing that is that I agree that religion is insane and a potent force for evil, and therefore its followers are, to some extent, duped. Yet I support religious freedom without question, as do all the major outspoken atheists of our time (as far as I know).

    I guess I’m answering my own question here?

    Yes, of course. People have the right to be duped, if they wish to be duped.
    There is a limit to which adult citizens can be protected from their own actions. And that line is not always clear, or exact, or stationary.

  32. #33 Dark Matter
    January 4, 2010

    Next they will bawl in front of Rupert
    Morlock’s media networks that they are
    “under attack” by the homosexuals, and
    “the traditional African family” is
    under an existential threat.

    They will demand one thing after the
    next from the Uganda government until
    it is compromised.

    Then the cancer will spread.

    Another fine example of regime change at
    work…the fundies are only too happy to
    be the instruments of american oligarchy.

    A very old problem as it turns out..

    The Religious Right And World Vision’s “Charitable” Evangelism”

  33. #34 https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkL6rop7ope6a9ysVWsdSU1FNTAQmmW9gw
    January 4, 2010

    Now these are the same Christian preachers that claim Jesus fulfilled the OT law so now they can wear mixed fabric clothing while eating shrimp during a conversation with their lawyer about their divorce settlements right?

    Fuckin cherrypickers.

  34. #35 MikeyM
    January 4, 2010

    Pastor Warren was for gay-lynching before he was against it.

  35. #36 raven
    January 4, 2010

    You have to realize that the American Christofascists are trying to do in Uganda what they want to do here and are prohibited from executing by US law.

    On some of the fundie websites, they talk seriously about how gays should be stoned to death and under what circumstances disobedient children should be stoned to death and so on.

    Rushdoony, the Dominionist theologian, wants to institute biblical law in the USA. Calculations show that 1% of the US population would promptly end up murdering the other 99%.

  36. #37 Strangest brew
    January 4, 2010

    How any xian can feel so righteously justified in donating cash to Warren’s fiscal ineptitude is beyond reality it really is.
    Above all they should hang their heads in deep shame!
    They are aiding and abetting a genocidal execution of a portion of society and are piously proud of it apparently.
    The three stooges that spoke in favour of draconian measures are perfect examples of NAZI doctrine!
    And the betting is they will still project that trait onto the Atheist filth they so like to denigrate.

    They are funding a lying fucking halfwit,
    and his dumbfuck brothers in abject fuckwittery.
    It will end in murder and xians will be secretly delighted and envious.

    A return to xian values plus the blood letting bonus.
    Truly a rapturous result…next stop ‘atheists’ on their blood soaked death wish list!
    God and jeebus are indeed great to the legions of bigots that the xian religion has finally and irrevocably descended into and they have nowhere to hide.
    Obama above all should feel so ashamed of giving Warren the oxygen of such publicity at his inauguration, that was not smart, and far from moral as it obviously turns out.
    I hope such pandering to delusional insanity does not occur on such a scale again in his presidency.
    But I will not be holding my breath, much to the disappointment of the criminally insane I hasten to add.

  37. #38 Caine
    January 4, 2010

    # 23:

    What would we say if, in an alternate universe, a Uganda-like country had a similar bill regarding religious persons instead of gays, inspired by some of the stronger “religious people are ipso facto crazy and belive in evil things” rhetoric of some atheists?

    I’d oppose it. While there is zero evidence for gods of any type, if someone wants to believe in them, have at it. However, there is a huge difference between having a religious belief and instituting a modern day inquisition.

    Plenty of religious people are evil motherfuckers – Scott Lively, Rick Warren, Caleb Brundidge and Don Schmierer are all fine examples of hypocritical, bloodthirsty, evil bastards. I’d prefer they didn’t believe such horrible crap, that is their right however. I’ll defend their right to wacked out beliefs, but they have to stop imposing that evil belief on everyone else.

    All I would like is for religious people to keep their religion private.

  38. #39 Steven Mading
    January 4, 2010

    Posted by: lenoxuss Author Profile Page | January 4, 2010 12:58 PM

    Part of why I feel icky writing that is that I agree that religion is insane and a potent force for evil, and therefore its followers are, to some extent, duped. Yet I support religious freedom without question, as do all the major outspoken atheists of our time (as far as I know).

    [...]

    I guess I’m just trying to figure out what’s going on in Rick Warren’s mind, to what extent he (and the others mentioned in the post) feel guilt here. Christians are going to start (and probably have been) arguing that of course they are against putting gays to death, because then it would be too late to save their souls. Yet surely the threat of such punishment will strongly reduce the incidence of same-sex sex acts, and therefore lead to more salvation? huh?

    Your comment would have made sense if we were calling Rick Warren a hypocrite for merely saying homosexuality is wrong but shouldn’t be illegal. THEN your analogy to an attitude of religion is wrong but shouldn’t get you persecuted would make sense. But that’s NOT the full extent of what Rick Warren did. He changed his stated stance only after his influence in the Ugandan kill-the-gays bill became publicly known. It is THAT hypocrisy that we’re bitching about. It’s not that “homosexuality is wrong” is hypocritical in comparasin to “but it shouldn’t get you persecuted”. THAT isn’t hypocritical. What is hypocritical is that the second part of that, the “but it shouldn’t get you persecuted” idea, is NOT what he said while he was talking to the Ugandans. The hypocrisy is not that there’s a logical conflict between the two statements he makes today (there isn’t). The hypocrisy is that
    there’s a logical conflict between the second of those two statements versus what he just recently did in the past. He clearly does not actually really believe that gays should not be persecuted against, given his involvement in the Uganda bill.

    He’s just changing his stated stance because his dishonest attempts to promote hate became publicly known, not because he really means what he’s saying today when stating his alleged stance. If he really was being honest about changing his stance, then he’d admit he was changing his stance rather than what he is doing, which is a snow job of trying to pretend he’s not changing it and that this is how he felt all along.

  39. #40 Shifty
    January 4, 2010

    On a positive note, Annise Parker has been officially sworn in as the mayor of Houston. An openly gay mayor in a large Texas city…who’da thunk it?

  40. #41 tsg
    January 4, 2010

    Plenty of religious people are evil motherfuckers – Scott Lively, Rick Warren, Caleb Brundidge and Don Schmierer are all fine examples of hypocritical, bloodthirsty, evil bastards. I’d prefer they didn’t believe such horrible crap, that is their right however. I’ll defend their right to wacked out beliefs, but they have to stop imposing that evil belief on everyone else.

    Just to expand on this, plenty of religious people are evil motherfuckers, but they should be prosecuted for being evil, not for being religious.

  41. #42 KyBoiler
    January 4, 2010

    Those C-Street guys sure are doing a good service by showing us the scary light. Luckily I was recruited by the Heterosexual Agenda at a young age and do not qualify to be stoned to death at this time.

  42. #43 hje
    January 4, 2010

    Uganda is a test run for the Christofascists.

  43. #44 Rox
    January 4, 2010

    It absolutely kills me that this is not a bigger story here in the US.

    The problem is one of perception. Intelligent people here in the US tend to dismiss people like Rick Warren as idiotic but harmless. Because, as was mentioned before, his rhetoric is significantly toned down for US audiences. They don’t realize what is going on overseas. They don’t realize that these people seriously hate homosexuals (among other things) and will work to see us eliminated.

    It is the same with the ex-gay people. Most people just laugh at them. ‘Oh, they are just idiots. Nobody takes them seriously.’ But people DO take them seriously. We may be able to recognize a fake diploma from a worthless university, but many people can’t. Many people take their fake credentials as the real thing.

    Americans don’t realize the threat these people truly pose because we aren’t the ones in danger. They can’t pass an anti-gay bill like the Ugandan one here, so they go to Uganda to do it. And the spineless media simply ignores it–after all, they have important stories about balloon boy and reality TV stars to do.

    This kind of story should be the headline. Instead, it is relegated to the crawl at the bottom of the TV screen (Rachel Maddow being the exception).

  44. #45 'Tis Himself, OM
    January 4, 2010

    The Christofascists are using Uganda as a test run for their scheme to take over the US.

  45. #46 Rox
    January 4, 2010

    I just had to add one more thing.

    The NY Times article mentioned ‘correctional rape’. Isn’t it ironic that the homophobes, who are so afraid of homosexuals raping children to turn them to homosexuality, turn right around and rape homosexuals to ‘convert’ them?

    At least, it would be ironic if it wasn’t so fucking disgusting. Rick Warren and those ex-gay pieces of shit can go fuck themselves. God dammnit I am pissed.

  46. #47 echidna
    January 4, 2010

    “People [outside the US] believe their fake credentials from a fake university” –

    It took me a while to even understand what HR people in the US were asking when they asked if my degree was from an “accredited” university. In Australia, it is illegal to call an institution a university unless it actually is one – there is no such thing as a non-accredited university.

    Texas education.
    Fake universities.

    There is a downside to a lack of standards.

  47. #48 kausik.datta
    January 4, 2010

    Lynna at #12: The post you linked to, about the Ugandan Pastors blasting Rick Warren. Informative post, but I made the mistake of reading the comments. I feel dirty. There are so many people seriously deluded, fucked up in the head, and thanks to the internet fora, they can spew their venom openly. There are people in there who are speaking of old JC as if he were around just the other day. They are quoting scripture as a means to justifying putting people to death simply because of their sexual orientation. Is this some kind of alternate reality that these people belong to?

  48. #49 hje
    January 4, 2010

    Does anyone seriously doubt that the Christianist demagogues, that “joke” that they like to chance to hunt Obama, would have any qualms about murdering gays, right here in the US?

    Of course, they will probably say–much like Sarah Palin and her “death panels”–these hateful words are just a “metaphor.” Yeah right, except for the part about all the killin’.

  49. #50 shonny
    January 4, 2010

    In all civilised societies hate speech is prohibited, except for the US where the holier-than-thou and rethuglicans seem to be able to spew gall and hatred with impunity.
    Why is the US so fucking backward??

  50. #51 raven
    January 4, 2010

    They are quoting scripture as a means to justifying putting people to death simply because of their sexual orientation. Is this some kind of alternate reality that these people belong to?

    No. These are evil people who have largely hijacked US xianity. The fundie version looks a lot like what satanism would look like if it existed.

    I doubt if they really care all that much about the gays. They just want to kill lots of people.

    As usual the so-called moderate xians are mostly missing in action again. Who is speaking up are…those No Religions who supposedly can’t have a moral code because they don’t believe in an inept, genocidal invisible spook.

    As much as I dislike Rick Warren, he did say, wait a minute here. Pointless mass murders in Uganda might be immensely satisfying to a few US fundie kooks. A lot more people would be appalled and blame the xians. Genocide isn’t well thought of these days.

  51. #52 madbull
    January 4, 2010

    Fundie Quote – “Thankfully, Uganda may be a place where we can flee and live in peace. If so, we can thank bold pastors who live for Christ like men.”

    What are the chances they’ll all round up and go to one country where they can hate and stone their own kind ?

  52. #53 hje
    January 4, 2010

    Christianists are all for “death panels.” Maybe they were all worked up this summer because they thought someone had stolen their idea. It’s murder they can believe in.

  53. #54 SteveM
    January 4, 2010

    shonny

    In all civilised societies hate speech is prohibited, except for the US where the holier-than-thou and rethuglicans seem to be able to spew gall and hatred with impunity.
    Why is the US so fucking backward??

    Sorry, but as much as I hate “hate-speech”, I do not agree that prohibiting it is so “forward thinking”. What is “backwards” about America is the speech itself, not the lack of prohibitions on that speech.

  54. #55 Carlie
    January 4, 2010

    Rick Warren hasn’t been reading his Galatians.

    Galatians 6:7
    Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

  55. #56 Rorschach
    January 4, 2010

    So when is the uproar in the american media about this going to start ?
    When will the country-wide demos begin and people in their millions speak out against these lying bigoted homophobic kooks with blood on their hands ? When will the government review the megachurch’s and organized religion’s tax exempt status ?

    I’m not sure what’s worse, that those criminals went to Uganda, or that I don’t hear a public outcry of massive proportions about this in the US.

  56. #57 Rorschach
    January 4, 2010

    To add to that : Where is the outcry and clear statements from other religious denominations, the unambiguous condemnation of these criminals ? The silence of the catholics and all the others on this issue is deafening.

  57. #58 Mr T
    January 4, 2010

    Rorschach:

    So when is the uproar in the american media about this going to start ?

    However long it takes for the country to become less racist and homophobic. The remaining few are probably non-interventionists. So, being as optimistic as I possibly can, I think it would take quite a while.

  58. #59 Mr T
    January 4, 2010

    Where is the outcry and clear statements from other religious denominations, the unambiguous condemnation of these criminals ?

    Again with the racism and homophobia. I expect very few churches would have the decency to alienate their more-bigoted parishioners in order to do the right thing.
    They can preach about some flaccid concept of peace and justice all fucking day. However, they cannot do that if it’s peace and justice directed toward gay Africans, or any other taboo subject that might put a damper on Christmas buying lots of crap or might put the Sewing Circles’ panties in a knot.

  59. #60 lenoxuss
    January 4, 2010

    Re: #39 Steven Mading

    “He clearly does not actually really believe that gays should not be persecuted against, given his involvement in the Uganda bill. He’s just changing his stated stance because his dishonest attempts to promote hate became publicly known, not because he really means what he’s saying today when stating his alleged stance.”

    Very good point on the distinction. On top of everything else, I suppose that pointed criticism of a philosophical position (such as religion) is very different from pointed criticism-verging-on-hatred of a “lifestyle choice” that isn’t even a choice, and the second is far more likely to lead to very bad infringements on human dignity.

    Really, have there ever been wars, enslavement or genocides justified solely by doctrines of homosexuality? How would that even work? I don’t even remember the last time a gay person tried to convert me.

  60. #61 tdc.udel
    January 4, 2010

    Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

  61. #62 Bill from Fallbrook
    January 4, 2010

    Here’s another Gays vs Christians article.

  62. #63 Scott M
    January 4, 2010

    “So when is the uproar in the american media about this going to start?”

    There’s a joke I’d heard was popular in Europe about how America’s map of the world is a a map of the United States. I suspect an attitude of “Foreigners are insane so this kind of thing isn’t news” might have something to do with it.

    Something like this should be bigger news than it is. Especially the C-Street Family connection.

  63. #64 lijdare
    January 5, 2010

    This is old news. Read the Box Turtle Bulletin for an overview at: http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/slouching-toward-kampala .

    The people at Exodus were warned, including Schmierer. He wasn’t duped, it is just his attempts at covering up his own complicity. A posting on an Aussie ski forum had him saying that ‘he works for Exodus International’ which is ‘not short of cash as it?s funded by billionaire Howard Ahmanson,’ that ‘Africa is a big focus for them ? it?s religious and predominantly anti-gay, and Exodus wants to keep it that way.’

  64. #65 hje
    January 5, 2010

    RE: “When will the country-wide demos begin and people in their millions speak out against these lying bigoted homophobic kooks with blood on their hand?”

    Several possibilities, neither encouraging in the short run:

    1. When they overreach and advocate for the same kind of laws in some red state legislature. Or there is a lynching. Or some wingnut attempts to assassinate the president (they blame him for everything they don’t like about America anyway–and I can’t believe the number of comments I’ve seen lately from the crazies that believe he is the antichrist). It’s sad it takes a Katrina-class type of news event to get the attention of the majority of Americans.

    2. Changing demographics leads to more tolerance (which seems to be underway, explaining why Christianists are so wound up–despite all their shouting, they know their influence is declining and will continue to do so). That may take another decade or two.

    3. Reporters in the main stream media get back to being investigative journalists, instead of being fawning entertainment show hosts. Without bloggers, it’s not clear we would even know about this.

    In the near term I think we will see a lot more examples of the religious right crossing the thin red line between extreme free speech and outright advocacy of violence against the other.

  65. #66 raven
    January 5, 2010

    had him saying that ‘he works for Exodus International’ which is ‘not short of cash as it?s funded by billionaire Howard Ahmanson,‘ that ‘Africa is a big focus for them ? it?s religious and predominantly anti-gay, and Exodus wants to keep it that way.’

    WOW!!! Holy Fruitbats!!!

    Howard Ahmanson is also the backer of the creationist Dishonesty Institute. He was involved with the Chalcedon Institute, a group of Xian mass murderer wannabes. Their plan is to institute biblical law in the USA and kill 297 million Americans. They propose seriously to stone disobedient children to death.

    Sure they are kooks, complete fruitcake nuts. They are also supremely evil. Howard Ahmanson is also very, very rich. He won the lucky sperm competition. His father was a banker of some sort.

    FWIW, from a few comments I’ve heard, Howard Ahmanson seems to have had a bad childhood and might be a seriously damaged human being. That in no way excuses financing mass murderer wannabes.

    Going to Godwin the thread of necessity. The only state sponsored Gay Holocaust I know of was the Nazis. They herded gays into the gas chambers along with their other victims. And Hitler had a lousy childhood and a rough life. See any similarities here?

    Fundie xians are evil.

  66. #67 Colin
    January 5, 2010

    I’ve been following this story for a few weeks – it ruined my xmas. Unfortunately, the Ugandan government appears to be as open to reason as, say, Robert Mugabe.

    Several countries (including, if I’m not completely mistaken, Sweden) have either yanked any aid they were giving Uganda, or have made that aid contingent on the disappearance of the proposed law.

    Be nice if the US followed suit, but I’m not holding my breath.

  67. #68 raven
    January 5, 2010

    RE: “When will the country-wide demos begin and people in their millions speak out against these lying bigoted homophobic kooks with blood on their hand?”

    After we stop the genocide in Rwanda. Oh that’s right, it is long over and almost forgotten.

    We can do a lot but we can’t do everything in the world. It’s a big place and we are already stretched thin with the Iraq mistake and the Afghanistan swamp.

    This concerns everyone in the world. The Europeans and others can speak up anytime they want.

    I don’t believe we could have done much in Rwanda. We can in Uganda. For anyone running a country, pogroms against a small minority for no particular reason should be low on the list. Below receiving American foreign aid and getting condemned in the UN for crimes against humanity.

    I’ve known a few Ugandans, refugees from previous wars. They are smart people who look up to the USA.

  68. #69 Rorschach
    January 5, 2010

    The only state sponsored Gay Holocaust I know of was the Nazis.

    Yeah, I wonder if the creobots might stop using the atheism = Hitler argument soon, since it now not only exposes them as liars instantanously, but morally explodes in their faces kindof, given there is now hard evidence that evangelical xtian criminals are fuelling the prosecution and death of gay people in Africa.

  69. #70 MadScientist
    January 5, 2010

    Homophobes like Ted Haggard … funny how they preach against and vilify homosexuals who in general don’t do what the preachers claim homosexuals do … and yet the very same preachers do engage in that sort of behavior. The pentecostals seem to be as much into little boys as the catholic clergy – I guess having a female wife doesn’t really help them.

  70. #71 MadScientist
    January 5, 2010

    Isn’t the goddamned UN going to poo-poo Uganda’s proposed laws or is religious tyranny more valuable than sensibility and decency?

  71. #72 Rorschach
    January 5, 2010

    It is inconceivable to me how people can still buy into the homophobic messages of those hatemongers, when preacher after preacher,televangelist after televangelist and priest after priest has been caught with their pants down/dick in some guys ass/in rubber suits with ass plugged/xyz….Madness !

  72. #73 Strangest brew
    January 5, 2010

    #57

    “To add to that : Where is the outcry and clear statements from other religious denominations, the unambiguous condemnation of these criminals ? The silence of the Catholics and all the others on this issue is deafening.”

    Because it is a simple point that they all ‘lub jeebus’ and although some views are…uncomfortable…they are all rowing on the team and in roughly the same direction.

    Tis the reason that Catholics, whom in the main grudgingly accept Evolutionary theory, were actively considering ID as a vehicle to clamber on.
    Benny was enamoured and fired his Vatican Observatory chief crow for daring to advise that ID was nonsense.
    Whatever they quietly back any attempt to usurp educational science because they know that the fallout in a few years of kids presented with ID as a fact might yield dividends down the road as the kids grow into adult hood and realise that ID is a crock of flaming goat crap, but indoctrination in the woo leaves them searching for an alternative delusion to satisfy their induced insanity.

    Who is there?…Mummy Mary and a whole squad of wannabee idols to satisfy their every whim in woo worship.

    And as for the silence on Africa, well that is because every major denomination wants a slice of that pie, in fact it is mainly Baptist delusionals with a long history of missionary crimes that ‘allow’ the murder of kids as witches, they tut tut for sure but they breed the cockroaches that enjoy the trappings of ’21st century witch doctorship’ and it is those fuckers that agitate for such draconian fuckwittery!
    And the C of E and catholic crows are not far behind them….in Africa inc!

    Anyway they all are aware of the active performance of the ‘black magic’ rights to exorcise demons from children, they even encourage the nonsense, some African home grown Bishops were exported to the UK where this halfbreed xian/witch doctor abomination are welcomed by immigrants that still hanker for the ways of the old life!

    This right wing evangelical force of dripping evil are the progenitors of all the present strife in the C of E.
    They are completely effing barking, several have climbed the greasy pole in the C of E are in positions that is just not healthy.

    ‘Team Rowan’( aka Catweazle) are riven with such a fundagelical loons.
    Archbishop of York….(really scary)
    Bishop of Rochester…(A Muslim convert by all accounts)
    Being the most high profile, but there are about 300 assorted other Bishops that all want to be more like jeebus apparently…i.e kill idolaters…stone disobedient kids… and chastise wayward women for tempting men…the usual hysterical mumbo jumbo they so love in xianity extremism.
    Most are indeed African!

    They seem to have found a home from home in a
    Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans (Foca), a global network for millions of Anglicans unhappy with liberal teaching on matters such as homosexuality and women priests!

    The rest want to ‘hail Mary’ for some as yet unclear desire.
    And catholic hierarchy are still reeling from the good catholic upbringing in Ireland, and elsewhere!, and are blaming everyone else for it.
    Apparently they espouse the position that abuse is more widespread in the C of E anyway, go figure?

    And the remainder xian C of E clones are in the minority apparently and only want to be conservative or just enjoy tea and scones while watching the Sunday afternoon cricket.

    Anyway Religion, whatever hue, shape or smell are in crisis, they are not going to rock the ecclesiastical boat by creating enemies in their own ranks of deluded fools.

  73. #74 Richard Eis
    January 5, 2010

    To add to that : Where is the outcry and clear statements from other religious denominations, the unambiguous condemnation of these criminals ?

    Like whom? The mormons? Wouldn’t that be rather…hypocritical of them? Not that that has ever stopped the religious of course. Its practically a necessity in their conversations.

    These people make me sick. Religion is a disease. Nothing more.

  74. #75 negentropyeater
    January 5, 2010

    Raven, #66

    The only state sponsored Gay Holocaust I know of was the Nazis. They herded gays into the gas chambers along with their other victims. And Hitler had a lousy childhood and a rough life.

    In The Hidden Hitler, Machtan argues that Hitler was a closeted homosexual. Among the evidence, it cites the allegedly homoerotic nature of his friendship with August Kubizek during Hitler’s youth in Vienna.

    Several models of Homosexual Identity Development have discussed the harm caused both to a closeted person and to society in general by being closeted.

  75. #76 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    January 5, 2010

    Humm, Howard Stern is talking about the Ugandan subject this morning.

  76. #77 aratina cage
    January 5, 2010

    Howard Stern is talking about the Ugandan subject this morning.

    Good, I think.

    Machtan argues that Hitler was a closeted homosexual.

    I’d be wary of Machtan using homosexuality as a form of disparagement and of treating homosexuality as more than incidental. Like atheism, homosexuality does not inherently give a person a political ideology or drive them to do anything at all outside of influencing sexual predilections. One of these Uganda creeps has already gone to the extreme with the “Hitler was gay” trope, reducing the entire Nazi party and all its treachery to a bunch of angry gays (Lynna has been documenting this in various links about the Uganda gay witch hunt).

    Several models of Homosexual Identity Development have discussed the harm caused both to a closeted person and to society in general by being closeted.

    Being closeted is not a problem either; people take it for granted when heterosexuals withhold all private information about their sex lives or separate their personal life from their professional life. The problem is heteronormativity, government enforcement of heteronormativity, and societal acceptance of bullying/hurting/mutilating/raping/murdering of people who dissent from heteronormativity. Hitler, whatever his sexual orientation, staunchly enforced heteronormativity as part of his political ideology. Not to mention, surely no one expects a political leader with such conservative ideals to not be a hypocrite?

  77. #78 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    January 5, 2010

    Good, I think.

    It was. Mirrored what any rational person would think about that issue. Basically disgust at the people responsible for it.

  78. #79 Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM
    January 5, 2010

    Cliff Kincade, who is the editor of Accuracy In Media, knows that people are not really upset about Uganda’s proposed laws. The outrage is much more self serving.

    But the controversy over Jennings, which had been growing since his appointment in May, has been skillfully deflected by some journalists and commentators who have been attacking the government of Uganda for considering a law that would toughen laws against homosexual behavior that threatens public health and children. “Uganda wants to execute people for being gay,” lesbian commentator Rachel Maddow asserted on her MSNBC program on December 2. She called it the “kill-the-gays bill” and demanded that Christians in the U.S. denounce it.

    Jumping on the story, the New York Times has claimed the bill would “impose a death sentence for homosexual behavior.”

    These claims are flat-out disinformation.

    Dr. Scott Lively, who visited Uganda in March of 2009 to encourage efforts to protect traditional family values, says the proposed death penalty in the bill, just one of many provisions, is for “aggravated homosexuality,” which is actually pederasty, pedophilia, homosexual parent/child incest, homosexual abuse of a disabled ward, and knowingly spreading AIDS. Dr. Lively is the author of The Pink Swastika and the president of Abiding Truth Ministries.

    If you want, you can follow the link in the link I provided. Kincade’s article degenerates into an anti-NAMBLA rant. I guess all gay men support NAMBLA and all lesbians are enablers.

  79. #80 negentropyeater
    January 5, 2010

    Aratina Cage,

    I’d be wary of Machtan using homosexuality as a form of disparagement and of treating homosexuality as more than incidental. Like atheism, homosexuality does not inherently give a person a political ideology or drive them to do anything at all outside of influencing sexual predilections.

    I don’t think Machtan is using homosexuality as a form of disparagement nor as a driver of Hitler’s political ideology, but his thesis that Hitler’s (and the Nazi regime’s) persecution of homosexuals was primarily motivated by the wish to obliterate potentially damaging evidence of his homosexual past, seems quite plausible.

    Homosexuality doesn’t influence anything else than sexual predilections, but rejection of one’s own homosexuality because of a homophobic society can often lead someone to do stupid things (see Ted Haggard as a recent example).

  80. #81 raven
    January 5, 2010

    says the proposed death penalty in the bill, just one of many provisions, is for “aggravated homosexuality,” which is actually pederasty, pedophilia, homosexual parent/child incest, homosexual abuse of a disabled ward, and knowingly spreading AIDS.

    Where is the bill for “Aggravated Heterosexuality”? All of those crimes such as incest, knowingly spreading AIDS, rape (not mentioned in the list), stat rape, pedophilia and so on are also committed by heterosexuals. In fact, given the small minority status of gays, the vast majority, especially rape are committed by heterosexuals.

    Obvious hypocrisy. Fundie xians are evil.

  81. #82 Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM
    January 5, 2010

    Raven, you never know when the big sky daddy will use rape to make sure that a person is born.

  82. #83 raven
    January 5, 2010

    Raven, you never know when the big sky daddy will use rape to make sure that a person is born.

    That is what the Virgin Mary found out.

  83. #84 Miki Z
    January 5, 2010

    Imagine you’re caught having homosexual sex in Uganda. Do you:

    A) Cry rape and send your partner to death
    B) Admit it was consensual and go to prison for life

  84. #85 aratina cage
    January 5, 2010

    negentropyeater #80, the further info about Machtan’s work is relieving to read, thank you. LGBT people were being treated like criminals even in enlightened Britain and the USA (maybe over most of Europe?) before, during, and after Hitler’s ascendancy to power so maybe there is something there. In any case, Hitler seems to have hated gays with a vengeance and staged public eviscerations of LGBT research to twistedly foment national hatred of Jews.

  85. #86 Dark Matter
    January 5, 2010

    Just the thing to get a new “movement”
    whipped up into taking over the government and
    secular society….

    A godly-inspired movement that will lovingly
    safeguard all of gods’ precious gifts for all the
    heterosexuals of Africa….

  86. #87 Age of Englightenment
    January 5, 2010

    You atheists are just jealous about the impact we have in Africa. Ugandans are turning to us because they are seeing that Christianity is the right choice to save them from their hell-hole culture. I know this because I made the same move to Christianity. I read the bible and found its history and truth to be something the world should obtain. You should too. It?s clear that homosexuality is a sin and should be destroyed but you want it be human you should be supporting conversion therapy. Their blood is on your hands if you don?t.

  87. #88 aratina cage
    January 5, 2010

    Age of Endarkenment, not you again with your tired old assholism.

  88. #89 Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM
    January 5, 2010

    Oh great. The Age Of Darkness is back in order to show just how far up his own ass he has his head. I take it that you support the jailing and execution of LGBT people. How enlightened.

  89. #90 Age of Englightenment
    January 5, 2010

    Janine, I support that their sins be reprimanded. There is nothing wrong with that.

  90. #91 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    January 5, 2010

    Janine, I support that their sins be reprimanded. There is nothing wrong with that.

    What a pile of bullshit. First of all, your deity doesn’t exist, so you can’t sin against anything imaginary. Secondly, if you deity did exist, he made gay people gay. That is what the evidence says. So he approves of gay folks. Which means you trying to claim they are sinning is a heaping pile of malodorous feces. So, all you have is your insane beliefs and nothing of substance. Which makes you a real farce, and your opinion worhtless.

  91. #92 aratina cage
    January 5, 2010

    #90 shows the depth of Age of Endarkenment’s depravity.

  92. #93 Age of Englightenment
    January 5, 2010

    They made themselves gay. God did no such thing, as it isn’t natural.

  93. #94 raven
    January 5, 2010

    ageof Endarkenment:

    You atheists are just jealous about the impact we have in Africa. Ugandans are turning to us because they are seeing that Christianity is the right choice to save them from their hell-hole culture.

    Naw. AgeofEndarkenment or Dark One for short is just taking advantage of the natives to do what they can’t do here. Hate, torture, and kill.

    This is cultural imperialism of the worst sort.

    The Dark Ones’ goal of turning the USA into a medieval hellhole is slipping away. US xianity has been on the skids for decades and is projected to slip below 50% in a few decades.

    Every cloud has its silver lining though. In the unlikely event US fundie death cultists are successful with their foray into African genocide, the majority of the US population which includes other xians will be even more sick and tired of them.

    The Dark One is being stupid, bragging about heaps of bodies and rives of blood in Uganda. AFAIK, the genocide hasn’t even started yet and may well never happen. He is confusing fond dreams for reality.

    So Dark One, who else is on your To Kill list? Amuse us with your ravening insanity and evil. Got some serious competition here. Rushdoony wants to kill 99% of the population. The Rapture Monkeys want to kill everyone on earth.

  94. #95 aratina cage
    January 5, 2010

    #93.

    God did no such thing, as it isn’t natural.

    You’re right! God did no such thing because God isn’t natural. God is all fake, made up woo.

  95. #96 Age of Englightenment
    January 5, 2010

    There you go again raven spewing anti-Christian lies. You’re a broken record you know that? It was Christianity that help during the progressive era to give basic human rights such as education and health to Americans. Not to mention all our founding fathers were Christian. You’re head is deep in you’re ass raven.

  96. #97 Jadehawk, OM
    January 5, 2010

    God did no such thing,

    well, you’ve got that one right, since a non-existent entity can’t to much of anything.

    also, if homosexuality isn’t “natural”, then why is it that there are homosexual animals? are animals unnatural, too?

    not to mention that “unnatural” is a non-argument to begin with. everything that isn’t magical is natural. (are you another one of those idiots who can’t tell the difference between the two meanings of the word “natural”?)

  97. #98 Jadehawk, OM
    January 5, 2010

    It was Christianity that help during the progressive era to give basic human rights such as education and health to Americans.

    BWAHAHAAAHAAAA!!!!!

    you suck at history. and in the present, rabid fascist christoids are what is keeping America from having the same high levels of education and health as less god-infested nations.

  98. #99 Celtic_Evolution
    January 5, 2010

    Ugandans are turning to us because they are seeing that Christianity is the right choice to save them from their hell-hole culture.

    Ummm… moron, Ugandan’s are predominantly christian already and have been for some time. They aren’t turning to anything they weren’t already.

    Please… just go away… you are embarrassing yourself.

    Their blood is on your hands if you don?t.

    Boy, you really are an evil piece of shit, aren’t you. Even if you think you are right in your clearly hateful views on homosexuality, you would condone blaming anyone but the murderers for murdering people?

    Dude, if Jesus were real, he wouldn’t even spit on you. Fuck off.

  99. #100 aratina cage
    January 5, 2010

    Is Age of Endarkenment trying to parrot the Gipper? Too funny.

  100. #101 Celtic_Evolution
    January 5, 2010

    Not to mention all our founding fathers were Christian.

    Tee-hee…

    This is why we need basic standards for history textbooks in the US Public Schools. No-one who’s ever actually read anything about the actual history of the founding fathers would say something this blatantly stupid.

  101. #102 Age of Englightenment
    January 5, 2010

    Jadehawk, natural is anything made by God. You’re attitude isn’t because God made you to serve us not to talk back against us.

  102. #103 Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM
    January 5, 2010

    Not to mention all our founding fathers were Christian.

    You are either ignorant or lying. Either way, fuck you.

  103. #104 aratina cage
    January 5, 2010

    You’re attitude isn’t because God made you to serve us not to talk back against us.

    Word salad. Yech!

  104. #105 Celtic_Evolution
    January 5, 2010

    Jadehawk, natural is anything made by God.

    Hmmm.. .interesting… looked in 7 different dictionaries and found no mention of “god” under the definition of “natural” in any of them. How could god allow such a thing?

    You’re attitude isn’t because God made you to serve us not to talk back against us.

    I tried re-reading this sentence backwards, but it still made no sense…

  105. #106 Age of Englightenment
    January 5, 2010

    You’re pretty stupid to not see what I was alluding to, aratina. Obviously, I’m referring to the fact that women were made from men and therefore men have dominion over them. Go read a Bible. Or are you one of those effeminate weak men that can?t do things for himself?

  106. #107 Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM
    January 5, 2010

    Hey Jadehawk! Serve The Servants!

  107. #108 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    January 5, 2010

    They made themselves gay. God did no such thing, as it isn’t natural.

    Sorry, they are born that way. There is solid evidence showing that in the physchological journals. Why don’t you show solid evidence from outside of your mythical/fictional babble otherwise. Secondly, your deity is also fictional/mythical, so you can’t say anything about your delusions. Thirdly, if it exists in nature, it is natural. And homosexual behavior is seen in nature. To say otherwise means you are a liar and bullshitter. But then, you believe in imaginary deities, so lying to yourself is second nature to you. You could change that.

  108. #109 aratina cage
    January 5, 2010

    Or are you one of those effeminate weak men that can?t do things for himself?

    Your a reel crepe. Eye wuss oblivious two Yor poeing butt knot know.

  109. #110 Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM
    January 5, 2010

    Age Of Enlightenment! Shut the fuck up and make me a sandwich!

  110. #111 raven
    January 5, 2010

    boring Dark Crazy one:

    It was Christianity that help during the progressive era to give basic human rights such as education and health to Americans. Not to mention all our founding fathers were Christian. You’re head is deep in you’re ass raven.

    The Fake Xians did indeed and still do support human rights. Including for gay people.

    Your fundie death cult xianity opposed them. And still do.

    The US xian churches split in two during the civil war, one for each side. They are still split and you are still on the wrong side.

    I noticed you didn’t answer the question. Who else is on your To Kill list? All fundies have one. If you are too stupid to find yours, borrow the Rushdoony one. It includes 99% of the US population so you won’t miss any groups.

    And Dark One. When is the Ugandan genocide scheduled to start? I assume you will watch raptly with some popcorn as thousands are rounded up and butchered.

  111. #112 Celtic_Evolution
    January 5, 2010

    You’re pretty stupid to not see what I was alluding to, aratina.

    Ahhh… so I’m sure that will be followed up with an explanation to clear things up…

    Obviously, I’m referring to the fact that women were made from men and therefore men have dominion over them.

    Hmmm… nope… that was way more stupid.

    Go read a Bible.

    Been there, done that.. why the hell do you think I’m an atheist? You have to read that thing to understand the sheer magnitude of its absurdity.

    Or are you one of those effeminate weak men that can?t do things for himself?

    Wait… reading is a masculine skill of strength? I’m confused…

  112. #113 Joffan
    January 5, 2010

    You’re attitude isn’t because God made you to serve us not to talk back against us.

    I’m trying to work out whether Age of Engdarkenment is asserting that God wants atheists to be the slaves of Christians (so stop being so uppity).

    Meanwhile, lots of crimes are apparently “natural” under the twisted AoE definition, as a brief review of the OT will show.

  113. #114 Miki Z
    January 5, 2010

    Ever notice how it always seems to come back to either “You are jealous of our power” or “Without God everyone would kill for power”? We get it, it’s all about the power and the sex.

    None of the gay men I know is obsessed with things going up guy’s asses or not. What’s the reason for the obsession among fundies?

  114. #115 negentropyeater
    January 5, 2010

    You’re head is deep in you’re ass

    Note : wingnuts have a problem with basic grammar.

    http://www.wikihow.com/Use-You're-and-Your

  115. #116 raven
    January 5, 2010

    Crazy Dark One:

    Obviously, I’m referring to the fact that women were made from men and therefore men have dominion over them. Go read a Bible. Or are you one of those effeminate weak men that can?t do things for himself?

    The Dark One is obviously seriously mentally ill.

    Feed the crazy if it amuses you but you won’t get a coherent thought out of this one. Chances are very high that he is posting from a homeless shelter. Chances are measurable at least that we have another Mall Shooter wannabe. This level of hate, hostility, and incoherence isn’t close to normal.

  116. #117 Age of Englightenment
    January 5, 2010

    More foul mouth women, I hate this site so much. I’m out.

  117. #118 Celtic_Evolution
    January 5, 2010

    More foul mouth women that wouldn’t come near me with a 50 foot pole, I hate this site myself so much. I’m out of my freakin mind.

    There… fixed that for ya…

  118. #119 Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM
    January 5, 2010

    Good riddence, asshole. Now stay the fuck out if you cannot bear with women daring to act as your social equal.

    In fact, you best stay in your house. Or move to Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.

  119. #120 aratina cage
    January 5, 2010

    Poe came out, outed itself with hyperbole. Poe ran away crying like a WATB. Nobody was served sandwiches much to our chagrin.

  120. #121 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    January 5, 2010

    I hate this site so much. I’m out.

    You hate it because you are such an ignorant person, almost everything you say is a lie, which we point out. But it all starts with your belief in imaginary deities. Give that up and you may start becoming rational.

    I too, as far as reading the babble goes, been there, done that, and that is why I became an atheist. You don’t know how bad your babble is, or how much Yahweh resembles an amoral gangster. Why don’t you really read your babble in toto, and for complete understanding. It might open your eyes.

  121. #122 John Morales
    January 5, 2010

    Troll:

    Obviously, I’m referring to the fact that women were made from men and therefore men have dominion over them.

    Biology failure. Only women give birth.

  122. #123 negentropyeater
    January 5, 2010

    I hate this site so much

    What a wonderful example of Christian Love…
    _

    Please sign this petition to fix the broken comment registration system
    http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/fix-scienceblogs-registration

  123. #124 Jadehawk, OM
    January 5, 2010

    Jadehawk, natural is anything made by God.

    humpty-dumpty etc…

    anyway, if we ever needed an example of how religion is toxic, Age of Hatred is right there to broadcast it for us in all its putrid glory. it’s monsters like him that is responsible for Christianity bleeding members like there’s no tomorrow :-)

  124. #125 Nick
    January 5, 2010

    And where is the Commonwealth’s response to this? Uganda relies on trade, aid and co-operation with the Commonwealth. Pressure from the Commonwealth, in terms of threats to suspend aid and expel Uganda should have been immediate.

  125. #126 strange gods before me, OM
    January 5, 2010

    Jadehawk, natural is anything made by God.

    Then I’m a natural born homosexual.

    I do love these gay-hating, woman-hating, human-hating evangelicals. I’m glad they so blatantly show off how a “sin”-obsessed worldview turns a person into a complete misanthrope.

  126. #127 Kemist
    January 5, 2010

    how much Yahweh resembles an amoral gangster

    More like a two-year old in a tantrum. Jealousy. Erasing all life on earth because it’s not acting like he expected – like a baby will throw away a toy he doesn’t understand. Weird and unreasonable demands.

    Amoral gangsters are generally more coherent, subtle and display more self-control. Yahweh doesn’t even make a properly frightening villain.

  127. #128 Gyeong Hwa Pak, the Pikachu of Anthropology
    January 5, 2010

    Go read a Bible. Or are you one of those effeminate weak men that can?t do things for himself?

    Leaving this piece of cr*p’s misogyny on the side, bigots are always so ready to define all straight men as “masculine” and all straight women as “feminine”. What they fail to see is that femininity and masculinity are all cultural constructs and has nothing to do with being straight or gay.

    Hey, AOE! How does it feel to have your stupidity called out by a gay guy?

  128. #129 strange gods before me, OM
    January 5, 2010

    You know who likes to read the Bible? Lesbians.

    Lesbians read the Bible all day long.

    Especially the bits about Mary and Elizabeth’s love that dare not speak its name.

  129. #130 Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
    January 6, 2010

    “Leaving this piece of cr*p’s misogyny on the side, bigots are always so ready to define all straight men as “masculine” and all straight women as “feminine”. What they fail to see is that femininity and masculinity are all cultural constructs and has nothing to do with being straight or gay.”

    Who does that guy think he is? I’m feminine as shit!

  130. #131 Janine, Mistress Of Foul Mouth Abuse, OM
    January 6, 2010

    Feminine shit?

  131. #132 Patricia, Queen of Sluts OM
    January 6, 2010

    129 & 130 – What?

  132. #133 Patricia, Queen of Sluts OM
    January 6, 2010

    Oh silly me. You must be refering to Romans 1:26 – 32 .
    Yes, I’m sure lesbians read that night and day.
    /biblical snark

  133. #134 Twin-Skies
    January 6, 2010

    @Age of Englightenment

    No sooner do I finally come back to commenting on this site, when I find chauvnistic fuckwits like you talking shite out of their bunghole.

    Thanks for letting me test-fire my new vocabulary.

  134. #135 Richard Eis
    January 6, 2010

    This level of hate, hostility, and incoherence isn’t close to normal.

    You mean isn’t normally aired in public. AoE is being nice and true to his nature, unlike the others who hide it behind rehetoric and Ugandan policies. This is why no-one is going to go near him with a 10 foot pole while the others get huge sums of money.

    Pity him. Nothing more.

  135. #136 metasapien
    January 6, 2010

    “It?s clear that homosexuality is a sin and should be destroyed but you want it be human you should be supporting conversion therapy. Their blood is on your hands if you don?t.”

    So what you’re saying is that unless society hands every homosexual over to deranged Christian homophobes like yourself, so that you can ‘cure’ them of their ‘condition’ via prayer (lol!), aversion therapy, torture or brainwashing, then it will be SOCIETY’S FAULT if those same deranged Christians resort to MURDERING them instead? What kind of warped and diseased mind (‘sick and twisted’ seems an inadequate description) can entertain that sort of deranged logic?

    “They made themselves gay. God did no such thing, as it isn’t natural.”

    But didn’t God make us all in His image? :o) And isn’t He also omnipotent? If He dioesn’t like gay people, why does He allow them to exist? Because he is a cruel and vindictive God who gets perverse amusement from condemning 10% of the human race to childless, loveless lives full of sexual and emotional frustration, fear and persecution (though I’m sure many of them frustrate Him in this, and lead happy and fulfilling lives nonetheless)? Are you sure you’re worshipping the right supernatural being, and not the one with horns and a tail?

    “Not to mention all our founding fathers were Christian. ”

    Hmmm…let’s see, shall we?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States

    “The eminent American historian Richard B. Morris, in his 1973 book Seven Who Shaped Our Destiny: The Founding Fathers as Revolutionaries, identified the following seven figures as the key founding fathers: Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, John Jay, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton.[3]”

    I cannot easily locate any record of the religious beliefs of John Hay or Alexander Hamilton, but of the remaining five, I have found some quotations which cast serious doubt on your implication that they were all pious, god-fearing men:

    Benjamin Franklin:

    “Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”

    “He [the Rev Mr. Whitefield] used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.”

    George Washington:

    “If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.”

    “We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition … ”

    John Adams:

    “We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition … ”

    “When philosophic reason is clear and certain by intuition or necessary induction, no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can supersede it.”

    “Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it.”

    “I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved — the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!”

    “Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years.”

    Thomas Jefferson:

    “The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

    “Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.”

    James Madison:

    “During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. ”

    “Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects.”

    What can we conclude from this, other than that your assertion that “all our founding fathers were Christian” was a mere statement of belief without any facts to back it up. We shouldn’t really be surprised at this, because it is a defining characteristic of the religious mindset, of course.

    In conclusion, I would say that you, ‘Age of Englightenment’ (that name is meant to be ironic, right?) have a hole in your head and a hole in your heart; you are ignorant and stupid, and also display feelings of such wicked callousness towards other human beings that I can only call you evil and depraved. You are a perfect example of how religious belief rots the mind and the heart in equal measure. And this is why you can probably find more love, compassion and human goodness in the little finger of a typical gay person than exists in an entire congregation of pious Christians like yourself.

    I would pity you, but you don’t deserve it. Instead, I hope that you will experience justice, and that all the cruelty and misery you wish to see inflicted upon gay people will ultimately be visited upon yourself. And the same goes for all the other religious deranged homophobes in the world. As the Bible says, ‘As ye sow, so shall ye reap’.

  136. #137 Nanu Nanu
    January 6, 2010

    AOE:
    Read this nice and slow:

    If you are serious you are advocating the mass murder of thousands of people and think your mother, sister or whatever females you have in your life should be treated like cattle (“Dominion”?? Really??).

    If you are trolling you are getting your kicks from telling people that you personally welcome the mass murder of thousands of people and think your mother, sister and all females in your life should be treated like cattle.

    Both options paint you to be an ugly and stupid person.

  137. #138 martin
    January 7, 2010

    People hate me now but i wont stop now!Familiar with those lyrics!Thats we the UGANDANS!however much the image of Dr.Ssempa and others is tainted we are sorry to say that we shall not give up!Homosexuals have met a sober, awake and rigt thinking people who are not ready to give up the truth that has lived on for 2000 years and still lives on that SODOMY is perversion and a lie from the dippest pit of hell!Funny!Why should a ugandan law on Sodomy attract voices from all the so called Top dogs in the world?As they never shout when Kony kills a thousand! Please can you guys mind your own business and live UGANDA alone? Or are you partakers of the same cup (sodomy).in UGANDA, sodomy is sin,evil,wickedness,abomination and an insult to Human intelligence.

  138. #139 John Morales
    January 7, 2010

    martin, hate-mongering is sin, evil,wickedness, abomination and an insult to Human intelligence.

    Why you you hate so?

    What harm has any gay person ever done you, by their sexual preference?

    “Judge not, that ye be not judged.
    For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. ”

  139. #140 metasapien
    January 7, 2010

    @ Ugandan martin

    Hi Martin,

    If you think it’s okay to practice vicious discrimination against gay people simply because of the way they are born (and gay people ARE born, and do not CHOOSE to be gay, whatever ignornat, idiotic homophobes like you want to believe), then how would you respond if people said it’s okay to practice vicious discrimination against BLACK people simply because they are born black? (I am assuming that you are black, if you are Ugandan.)

    Homophobia and racism are both forms of irrational prejudice, and it frequently amazes me that many black people – for it seems to be a particular problem in black culture – feel it is okay to be homophobic, even though they have frequently been the victims of racism themselves, and so would be expected to be more sympathetic to victims of other kinds of prejduice, such as gay people.

    So here’s the deal; you carry on being a homophobic bigot if you like, but don’t complain when people express racist sentiments towards black people like yourself. One form of irrational prejudice deserves another, and what goes around comes around.

    Have a nice day.

  140. #141 negentropyeater
    January 7, 2010

    Martin,

    Please can you guys mind your own business and live UGANDA alone?

    Plase go and tell that to Scott Lively and all the other hateful American Evangelical clowns that are spewing their venom in Uganda.

    Anti-sodomy laws are a ridiculous relic of british colonial rule. Help liberate Uganda from this.

  141. #142 metasapien
    January 7, 2010

    @ negentropyeater

    Haha! So you’ve given martin a choice between renouncing his homophobia and implictly perpetuating white colonial influence in Uganda. Nice one! Though perhaps a little cruel – in trying to make a choice, his poor little bigoted Christian head might explode! They like things simple and black and white, with no tricky moral dilemas to negotiate :o)

  142. #143 Forbidden Snowflake
    January 7, 2010

    Lesbians read the Bible all day long.
    Especially the bits about Mary and Elizabeth’s love that dare not speak its name.

    Surely David, who found the love of Jonathan more pleasing than that of women*, receives an audience in certain circles?

    *2Sam 1:26

    Re: martin
    A homophobe telling others that they should mind their own business? Gee, that’s rich.

  143. #144 Knockgoats
    January 8, 2010

    On the topic of homophobic bigots, many here will remember Iris Robinson. Seems she’s come rather a cropper, as we say in Blighty: Iris Robinson business deal broke law. Bizarrely, this could lead to the collapse of the Northern Ireland executive, and even the peace deal, because her husband Peter Robinson is head of the executive and of the leading NI party, the Democratic Unionists, and he’s accused (politically, not legally) of failing to report her offences.

  144. #145 Knockgoats
    January 13, 2010
  145. #146 ergaster
    February 12, 2010

    does anyone know why I can’t find that anti-homosexuality bill on the Uganda webpage ( http://www.parliament.go.ug/ ) ?
    … even if I search by the bill number (18) and year (2009) ?

  146. #147 stevieinthecity
    February 12, 2010

    Hey Martin,

    Are all Ugandans as deluded and as backwards as you? I hope not.

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