The damaged done by the antivaccine movement is primarily in how it frightens parents out of vaccinating using classic denialist tactics of spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD). Indeed, as has been pointed out many times before, antivaccinationists are often proud of their success in discouraging parents from vaccinating, with one leader of the antivaccine movement even going to far as to characterize his antivaccine "community, held together with duct tape and bailing wire," as being in the "early to middle stages of bringing the U.S. vaccine program to its knees." Meanwhile, just last week Anne Dachel, "media editor" for the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism gloated about basically the same thing, how although overall vaccination rates remain high, vaccine exemption rates are up in many areas of the country and how her movement has provided plenty of information to "scare them [parents] out of vaccinating."
And it is the very same antivaccine propaganda blog, Age of Autism, that is promoting a different, more insidious message, specifically how the brutal murder of an autistic teen nearly three months ago "illumines the autism nightmare." What do I mean by "insidious message"? It's the hijacking of the autism advocacy movement, which tries to advocate for more services for autistic children and adults and more awareness and understanding of autism by the antivaccine message that autistic people are somehow "damaged," be it by vaccines or unnamed "toxins," that the "real child" has been "stolen" by autism, and that any manner of biomedical quackery to "recover" autistics is justified by the horror of autism. Although Attkisson never specifically mentions vaccines, if you know the background of the case, that message is quite obvious and not very far under the surface of her report on the murder of Alex Spourdalakis:
Not surprisingly, this story was reported by Sharyl Attkisson, who is CBS News' resident antivaccine reporter. I've known her to promote antivaccine views in a manner that gave Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. a run for his money as far back as 2007. Since then, she's smeared Paul Offit as a "pharma shill," very likely fed information to someone at AoA to help them portray Lisa Randall at Voices for Vaccines as an "industry group," done a puff piece about antivaccine physician and hero to the antivaccine movement Andrew Wakefield, and misreported the significance of the Hannah Poling case (which was really just the rebranding of autism). Most recently, Attkisson promoted a truly execrable "review article" summarizing the evidence relating vaccines to autism. The review article, by Helen Ratajczak, cited lots of pseudoscience from antivaccine literature in the service of supporting a truly dumb hypothesis, namely that DNA from vaccines could recombine in the brain of children to result in autism. Attkisson was quite smitten with the idea. As you might imagine, I was not. Along the way, Attkisson also indulged in promoting breast cancer misinformation. No wonder she is the perfect reporter to do this story promoting the viewpoint that autism is so horrible and the system provides so little help that we should understand why a mother like Alex's might become so desperate that she would poison her son and then, when that failed to kill him, try to slash his wrist, and then, when that failed, stab him in the heart with a kitchen knife.
A feeling of utter revulsion welled up in me when I finally watched Attkisson's video. On the one hand, I can only begin to imagine how hard it is to raise and care for a child like Alex Spourdalakis, who was nonverbal and, as he grew, was becoming very strong and difficult to manage and control. On the other hand, that is no excuse for murder. Those of you who haven't read my original post about this murder, go now and read it. It provides the background, in particular how long before the murder the antivaccine movement had latched on to Alex's story, blatantly used it to promote their viewpoint, and corrupted it. Not long before Alex's murder, Andrew Wakefield even traveled to visit him and make this video:
That's just a reminder that even minimal fact checking would have turned up the Wakefield connection, not to mention that shortly after this video an anonymous donor turned up to get Alex out of Lutheran General Hospital and to a "safe, secret place," or how the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism had a tight connection with Dorothy Spourdalakis that it touted nearly three months before Alex's murder. Also note that Alex's mother wrote a thank you note to AoA in which she states:
Vaccines have maimed too many already and there are many more to come. The CDC's latest stats confirm that. We are not going away, nor are we giving up. My son Alex is just one of millions of children and adults who no longer will be silenced.
It is a sentiment that Sharyl Attkisson appears to agree with.
Lies of omission to exploit an autistic teen
I don't think I am exaggerating when I say that I found Attkisson's report to be exploitative and far more sympathetic to the mother and caregiver who murdered Alex Spourdalakis than to Alex himself. It's sympathetic to the mother in that it spins a tale in which a mother, who was so kind and loving that she would wash her son's feet, sleep on the floor by his bedside, and do everything in her power to find him help, finally despairs and decides that her son is suffering so much that he is better off dead. So she and Alex's other caregiver Jolanta Agata Skordzka killed Alex and tried to commit suicide, but failed. The exploitation comes from the multiple images of Alex nearly naked and in four point restraints, images that show no respect for his dignity as a human being. Indeed, I would go further than calling this segment exploitative and slanted towards the mother and accuse Sharyl Attkisson of lying by omission in that so many relevant facts about the background of this story are omitted that a viewer unfamiliar with the story would completely miss the context and have no idea who at least two of the people interviewed are. If Attkisson were to plead ignorance, she would reveal herself to be the hack reporter that I consider her to be. I don't think she can plead ignorance, anyway, because of her close connections with the antivaccine movement through bloggers at AoA and her long history of promoting antivaccine pseudoscience that goes back at least to 2007, which is when I first noticed her, and probably beyond. Why CBS News continues to indulge Attkisson's penchant for vaccine pseudoscience, I don't know, but this piece clearly represents a failure of her producers to do even minimal checking of her reporting, as you will see.
The first lie of omission comes from what is not mentioned about the footage of Alex used by Attkisson in her report. Notice the source of the video: The Autism Media Channel (AMC). What is not revealed by Attkisson is that the Autism Media Channel is an antivaccine propaganda network designed to promote the idea that autism is caused by vaccines. Don't believe me? Then consider this. The Director of the Autism Media Channel is Andrew Wakefield. It's somehow been mysteriously scrubbed from the site, where you will find little mention of Andrew Wakefield anymore, but the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism refers to Wakefield as the Director of AMC (for example, here) and it is in various news outlets that he is the Director of the AMC (for example, this Guardian story, which lists him as the "director of a company called Medical Interventions for Autism and another called the Autism Media Channel"). Meanwhile, the AMC still features a couple of videos by Wakefield, for example, this video in which he challenges Dr. David Salisbury, Director of Immunisation at the Department of Health in London, the official responsible for overseeing the nation's immunization program in the UK, to a debate over the death of a child thought by his parents to have been caused by the MMR vaccine. Then there's this video (the second one on the page), where Wakefield is interviewing Dr. Arthur Krigsman, who, not coincidentally, is featured in Attkisson's report as the only doctor who could help Alex Spourdalakis when Loyola and other hospitals could not. He is also on the staff of AMC. As the Guardian article put it:
The Autism Media Channel website contains videos with titles such as Not Born With It – a reference to the belief that autism is far from genetic, which leads it to advocate biomedical interventions such as nutritional supplements as well as gluten- and casein-free diets (one video is entitled How To Afford A Gluten And Casein Free Diet). Other videos recommend that parents of autistic children cook food using stainless-steel or ceramic pots so metals don't "leach into the food and give more toxic overload to your kid".
The lies of omission are many-fold and just keep coming. For example, Attkisson doesn't mention the connection between Andrew Wakefield and the AMC, which is not, as it is represented, just a web channel designed to promote the vaccine-autism hypothesis that was started by Andrew Wakefield and Polly Tommey. Instead, Attkisson presents the AMC as a "website with a mission of helping those living with autism." Very benign-sounding. Who could argue with that? It's also the AMC's self-professed mission. However, any halfway decent reporter would have at least mentioned in passing the AMC's connection with Wakefield. Another omission is that Tommey is quite a familiar presence to British skeptics, being a well-known antivaccine activist and supporter of Andrew Wakefield. (She even has her own approving Whale.to page.) Indeed, Tommey once maintained a Facebook Campaign known as Mothers Supporting Andrew Wakefield’s Work. A few years ago, she launched a billboard campaign to try to score a meeting with then Prime Minister Gordon Brown. British physician Dr. Michael Fitzpatrick pointed out at the time in a response he called An Open Letter to Gordon Brown:
In her campaign posters, Mrs Tommey, whose 12-year-old son Billy is autistic, offers to save the UK government £500 million a year by helping people with autism to get jobs. But it is not clear from the posters how she thinks this can be achieved. However, The Autism File, the magazine she edits, focuses on two issues: supporting the campaign led by the former Royal Free Hospital researcher Andrew Wakefield against the MMR vaccine and promoting ‘unorthodox biomedical’ treatments for children with autism.
The current issue of The Autism File contains a 15-page feature providing a detailed account of the case presented by Dr Wakefield to the General Medical Council, where he is currently facing charges of professional misconduct. The recent judgments in the US Omnibus Autism Proceedings revealed the consensus among experts that Wakefield’s research was scientifically flawed and probably fraudulent. Yet this research has proved damaging to thousands of parents – on both sides of the Atlantic – who were drawn into futile litigation. The resulting decline in confidence in MMR has contributed to renewed outbreaks of measles. It is regrettable that The Autism File should continue to uphold pseudoscience to the detriment of children’s health.
The Autism File promotes a range of ‘unorthodox biomedical’ treatments for autism. These include exclusion diets, vitamins and supplements, anti-fungal and anti-viral medications, and ‘detoxification’ regimes, such as ‘chelation therapy’, which purport to remove ‘heavy metal’ toxins from the body. Practitioners providing these treatments also offer a wide range of unvalidated investigations. Polly Tommey’s husband Jonathan, who is closely involved in The Autism File, also runs a private clinic providing biomedical tests and treatments (though he has no medical qualifications).
And, from the Guardian article:
The presenter of many of the Autism Media Channel videos is Polly Tommey, who is also registered with the Texas secretary of state as a co-director of the company, along with Wakefield. Tommey, who recently moved to Austin from the UK with her husband, Jonathan, and their three children, first appeared on the autism radar in 1999 when she and Jonathan were guests on Tonight With Trevor McDonald. That evening they announced that they had given their autistic son, Billy, an infusion of the hormone secretin, extracted from pig intestines, which stimulates digestive fluids in the pancreas, produces pepsin in the stomach and bile in the liver and, they said, resulted in "excellent progress".
And:
Meanwhile, Jonathan, Tommey's husband, who has a sports science degree and a foundation degree in nutritional therapy, set up the Autism Clinic in Berkshire to offer "specialist autism treatment", including "diagnostic tests" and an array of supplements and vitamins that he prescribes and makes available from his online shop. He also features in some of the programmes on the Autism Media Channel's YouTube page. In one of those films, Jonathan Tommey – The Biomedical Imbalances In Autism, he recommends "supplementary intervention" such as "vitamins and herbs" for children with autism. In the same film he discusses chelation therapy. "As nutritionists, we can't use chelating agents. They are prescriptive medications," he says, adding, "They are available on the web. My suggestion is you've got to be very careful doing this without professional guidance, and unfortunately in this country there are not many practitioners that do chelation." But, he adds, "Chelation has been used to a good level of success."
So what we have here is a woman who, while she does advocate for families with autism, also promotes the pseudoscientific and dangerous idea that the MMR and other vaccines cause autism, as well as a variety of quackery designed to treat the "toxic insults" that in her mind cause autism. Indeed, a quick perusal of The Autism File website, which is a repository for the magazine, confirms Dr. Fitzpatrick's assessment quite nicely and confirms the Guardian's reporting. For instance the treatment section features articles on enzymes, reiki, homeopathy (complete with at least one testimonial), and many other forms of quackery, "biomedical" and otherwise. There are articles claiming that heavy metals in vaccines cause autism or that vaccines in general cause autism. If you don't believe that Polly Tommey is firmly entrenched within the antivaccine camp, look no further than to yesterday's Age of Autism, in which her latest issue of Autism File is prominently promoted as featuring two articles from AoA contributors, Lisa Goes and Cathy Jameson and featuring a monthly column by AoA's managing editor Dan Olmsted. If you take a look at the table of contents of the latest issue, you'll see that the author list reads like a Who's Who of the antivaccine movement, including a column by Kim Stagliano (another AoA contributor), Deirdre Imus, Erik Nanstiel, Anju Usman, and, yes, Andrew Wakefield himself, who penned a piece called Reflections: The Painful Truth Behind Recent Tragedy. Not surprisingly, Wakefield attacks those who try to counter the message of people like Attkisson, Tommey and Wakefield that the mother was a long-suffering saint who finally cracked because there was no help for her son.
Here's an excerpt:
Clearly of the same assured if mistaken mindset, the Autism Self-Advocacy Network (ASAN), in calling for Spourdalakis and Skrodzka to be charged with a "hate crime," claims that:
In truth, Alex's murder is about a repulsive ideology all too common within our society that preaches that it is better to be dead than disabled.
Really? Were these organizations—NCD and ASAN—there for Alex at any stage during the unfolding tragedy? Did they have access to his medical records or interview his carers? Did they warn from Alex's bedside, as did Jill Rubolino and Jeanna Reed from Autism Is Medical (AIM) of their grave concerns for Alex's life in the absence of medical care? Did they make spontaneous offers of help, or seek to offset in any way the chance that their "hate crime" was imminent?
This is typical Wakefield, as disingenuous as it gets. Remember that Wakefield wrote in the introduction of his book Callous Disregard a fictional vignette about a mother who loved her autistic child so much that she climbed the Hounds Ghyll viaduct with him and jumped off with him. The view, clearly, was that autism can be such a burden that, when it gets too hard, the greatest act of love is a murder-suicide, which is the way to "keep him safe." The echoes from this resonate in the Alex Spourdalakis case.
As I pointed out before, it is very likely that Dorothy Spourdalakis was subjecting Alex to "autism biomed" quackery and came to know Rubolino and Reed through that. At the time, I was making an educated guess based on what I could find on AoA and elsewhere on the web. I wasn't sure that this was true, hence my qualifying my statements with terms like "apparently" or "probably." There is clear evidence that the Spourdalakis family was offered help, both from the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services and from the local Autism Society. She refused help from the former, and was put in contact with an attorney by the latter. Dorothy Spourdalakis appears to have refused it because that help consisted of standard conventional treatments for autism. If Alex were transferred to a psychiatric hospital's long-term care ward he would no longer receive the autism biomed treatments. At the time, I also noted that AoA contributor Lisa Goes portrayed Jeanna Reed as ranting and haranguing Alex’s doctors with pleas to read quack studies and claims that “many of these children present with bowel disease and mitochondrial dysfunction. He could have GERD, duodenitis, esophagitis, ulcers in the small intestines, colitis. How can we know if we don’t test?” As I pointed out at the time, this was pure autism biomed rhetoric, leavened with the arrogance of ignorance. When one of the doctors referred to autism as a “mystery,” Goes actually completely lost it, yelling, “No! No! It’s not. It’s a medical illness that causes bad behavior. All you have to do IS READ*!” Add to this Andrew Wakefield's grandstanding visit to Alex in his hospital bed last spring, and the connection is clear. Most likely, as far as I can tell, AIM never "spontaneously" offered help, but rather Dorothy Spourdalakis probably reached out to Reed and/or Rubolino through AIM as "autism biomed" advocates. Most likely the NCD and ASAN knew nothing of Alex's case until after his murder because the only way they would have heard of it is if they were monitoring antivaccine websites, as I do. It wasn't in the news then.
Unwittingly, Sharyl Attkisson has confirmed my worst suspicions. In her segment, an interview with Polly Tommey is featured prominently in Sharyl Attkisson's deceptive news segment, but her background is not mentioned. She is presented as nothing more than a concerned parent and autism advocate, rather than the antivaccine activist that she is. Nor are her close ties with Andrew Wakefield ever mentioned. Tommey opines that "His [Alex's] death didn't need to be. It was because there wasn't anything in place for him." However, that is not true, as I explained above. This leads us to Arthur Krigsman, which was the kind of help Dorothy Spourdalakis apparently did want.
Also featured prominently in Attkisson's segment is footage shot of Alex Spourdalakis undergoing endoscopy by Arthur Krigsman for his GI issues. Footage of Alex becoming violent is featured, with Attkisson's voiceover stating that Alex's mother blamed the fits of violence on severe GI distress, saying, "Dorothy believed that Alex's violent outbursts were triggered by severe gastric pain, but nobody seemed to know what to do with him." We're then told that a "glimmer of hope came" when "autism advocates" connected Alex's family with a GI specialist. Yes, that GI specialist was Dr. Krigsman, who (it is not mentioned) used to be Andrew Wakefield's partner at Thoughtful House when Wakefield was still the medical director there; that is, before Wakefield was fired by the board of directors in the wake of being struck off by the British General Medical Council (GMC), which found him guilty of several counts of egregious research misconduct, and referred to to him as "irresponsible and dishonest," and his having his infamous 1998 Lancet article retracted. Not coincidentally, Krigsman has been a coauthor with Wakefield on three articles.
Given that Wakefield and Krigsman were two of the most vocal promoters of the concept of "autistic enterocolitis" (in reality a nonexistent entity), it is not at all surprising that Dr. Krigsman immediately diagnosed stomach ulcers. To be honest, the images on the screen were there so briefly that I couldn't tell if this looked reasonable or not, but I'd sure like to see a pathology report of gastric biopsies. Maybe one of my gastroenterologist colleagues could comment. In the meantime, it's interesting to note that, testifying for the plaintiffs at the Autism Omnibus hearings, Dr. Krigsman stated that he sued a hospital because he claimed it restricted his privileges to do endoscopies because it was "concerned that the colonoscopies that were being performed on these children did not have proper indications of colonoscopy." He's also been fined by the Texas Medical Board. In the wake of Wakefield's disgrace, after having left Thoughful House not long after Wakefield did, Krigsman soldiers on promoting the same idea, the same "autism biomedical" quackery that Wakefield promoted and still promotes, just not at Thoughtful House anymore. Indeed, Dr. Krigsman even presented at the Autism One quackfest last spring, as he frequently does.
CBS News: Epic Fail
I could go on and on about how irresponsible and wrong Sharyl Attkisson is in promoting an idea that tries to absolve Dorothy Spourdalakis and Jolanta Agata Skordzka of guilt for the murder of Alex Spourdalakis just because he was autistic, large, and very difficult to handle, as have Matt Carey, Skeptical Raptor, Science Mom, Paula Durbin-Westby, the Poxes Blog, Liz Ditz, Todd W., and Scott Gavura have. I could go on and on again, as other skeptical bloggers and I have before, about how Attkisson has abused her trust as a journalist to promote quackery. (It is not for nothing that she has won a hallowed place in the Encyclopedia of American Loons.) I could go on and on, as Matt Carey has, about how, through this story, Attkisson has whitewashed the brutal murder of an autistic teen in order to hide the involvement of Andrew Wakefield and other "autism biomed" advocates and, worse, to promote in a not-so-subtle way their message that it is better to be dead than severely autistic. But why bother? Attkisson appears to be beyond redemption, given her long documented history of antivaccine sympathies and promoting autism biomed quackery.
It is CBS News that bears responsibility for airing Attkisson's irresponsible and deceptive whitewashing of the Alex Spourdalakis case, presenting who opportunistically latched on to it as legitimate "autism advocates" and lying by omission about critical parts of the story. They failed to do adequate fact checking, even the most superficial of which would have immediately revealed the connections between the Autism Media Channel and Andrew Wakefield, between Polly Tommey and the antivaccine movement, and between Arthur Krigsman and Andrew Wakefield. Fact checking would also have rapidly uncovered how Tommey and Wakefield had been collecting this footage most likely to be used in a reality TV show that they were developing, The Autism Team, whose trailer features autistic children screaming, hitting themselves, and throwing tantrums and featuring—you guessed it!—Dr. Krigsman as the only person who can help:
It sure looks to me as though the idea behind this show was to have parents with children with severe autism who are at their wits' end call for help, and—whoosh!—The Autism Team swoops in, gives the child all sorts of biomedical quackery, and rapidly makes things better. It's the classic reality show format, in which there is a problem and the reality show host comes in and almost miraculously fixes the problem, the way, for example, Caesar Millan corrects the behavior of unruly dogs in The Dog Whisperer or the way Stacy London and Clinton Kelley fix the fashion-challenged in What Not To Wear. Yes, it is just that blatant, which is why I chose these two examples to illustrate my point, even at the risk of offending. Look at the video if you don't believe me—if you can stand it. As Carey points out:
That video shows autistic children in meltdowns, being self-injurious. One specific child is flown from the U.K. to New York to see Arthur Krigsman (just as Mr. Spourdalakis was taken from Chicago to New York to see Krigsman). In the trailer, after visiting Krigsman the child was shown happy, playing, and the parents were shown grateful. As we know, this was not the conclusion of the Alex Spourdalakis story. Whatever Mr. Wakefield and Ms. Tommey had planned for the video they had taken, the “treat bowel disease and everyone is happy” story was not to be. Instead, he has produced a video of the “medical establishment fails family, leading to tragedy” theme. I do wonder how he managed to work that theme around the facts that the tragedy (aka brutal murder at the hands of his mother) came to pass after Mr. Spourdalakis was seen by Mr. Krigsman.
Matt Carey is correct. As I've pointed out before, the entire narrative of the autism biomed movement is that autism “stole” the parents’ “real child” away from them. Since the idea that vaccines cause autism is basically holy writ for the autism biomed movement, that means vaccines “stole” the real child away by making him autistic. Parents who try to “recover” that “real” child are thus viewed as heroic, rather than abusive, because they’re willing to do whatever it takes to defeat the scourge of autism (and vaccines) in order to rescue the “real” child within. Dorothy Spourdalakis, having valiantly struggled against the demon autism, is thus to many of a tragic and heroic figure, who strove, failed, and decided that life was no longer worth living for either Alex or herself. Worse, a disturbing number of people seem all too willing to accept that narrative, that "autism made her do it." If the narrative that "autism biomed" can cure didn't work out for the footage that Wakefield and Tommey shot of Alex and his mother, then another, more tragic narrative, of a mother so overburdened by autism, with no one or nor organization to help her, became so distraught that she killed her child, to them a tragic but understandable outcome. Never mind that it's a lie in that Dorothy Spourdalakis was offered help at least twice but turned it down, and having a disabled child who is difficult to handle does not justify killing him brutally.
Worst of all, CBS News failed in that they took at face value the claims of Polly Tommey and Dorothy Spourdalakis that no help was offered to her. They failed in how they framed this story so sympathetically to the plight of the mother, letting her surrogates, such as Polly Tommey, state virtually unchallenged the view that "autism drove her to it" and that if only Spourdalakis had had adequate "support" (what kind of "support" is not mentioned), then maybe she wouldn't have murdered Alex. That CBS News allowed Attkisson to juxtapose a voiceover about the AMC movie project calling it "a rare visual prelude to murder" with carefully selected footage designed to portray Dorothy Spourdalakis as downright saintly and only driven to murder by circumstances beyond her control. Sure, there's the obligatory interview with someone like Ari Ne'eman who quite correctly points out that it is a dangerous ideology that views those with severe developmental issues as less than human that was behind Alex's death, but the overall message of the segment is loud and clear. After all, right after the interview with Ne'eman, Attkisson shows Dorothy's suicide note and intones, "'Alex will no longer be treated like an animal or subjected to restraints,' indicating she thought they both were better off dead." Attkisson then concludes with a survey that claims that doctors aren't sure what treatments are appropriate for autistic children and by stating that advocates hope that the case of Alex Spourdalakis will result in change.
I, too, hope that the case of Alex Spourdalakis will result in change. I hope that the way CBS News permitted Sharyl Attkisson to exploit it proves so embarrassing that there is change—at CBS News, where change is desperately needed, starting with preventing Sharyl Attkisson from ever reporting on autism or vaccines again. What CBS News has done is to do a story that is nothing more than a press release for Andrew Wakefield and Polly Tommey's vision. It was beyond an epic fail on the part of CBS News. It was journalistic malpractice of a most despicable order. I hope that the connections between Wakefield, Tommey, and Attkisson all come out in the ongoing investigation into Alex's murder.
ADDENDUM: If you think I'm exaggerating about how the antivaccine movement is reacting to this and how it is trying to do its best to absolve the mother of guilt for her crime, just read the comments after this post at AoA over the weekend. One example is this comment from someone named Sheila Tzorfas:
WHO really killed Alex? ...
The Doctors WHO shot him with Aluminum, thimerosal (Mercury) embalming fluid, fetal cells, rats brains, parts of cows, pigs, caterpillars, ether and more in the name of health. The SCHOOL system that did not send viable home services or place him a nurturing, caring environment, the Medical Staff that did not DETOXIFY him; the Spiritual Community too buy to help, the ER doctors whose training in Autism was close to nonexistent, the Neighbors who hid their eyes, the Insurance Companies that waged a battle, the MEDIA, that hides the increase of illnesses from the viewers as 1 in every 6 children have been afflicted with Developmental Disabilities starting in 1991 when all newborn babies get a shot for a sexually transmitted disease that they CANNOT get,the Psychiatrists that did not give him relief, and the surrounding communities which include all.... Shell of,"Recovering Autism, ADHD, & Special Needs."
Notice that there's no mention of the mother on the list of "who really killed Alex." Apparently she isn't the one who "really" killed him.
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Is Sharyl Attkisson feeling the heat over her irresponsible reporting of the Alex Spourdalakis case?
My son Alex is just one of millions of children and adults who no longer will be silenced.
Fine words from the woman who silenced him.
Now now Orac, murderous ~Warrior Mommies~ aren't to blame for brutally killing their children. The Government/Pharmocracy/Babykilling-so-called-doctors dunnit.
Anyway, even if they did do it, it's not like they killed their "real" child, is it? They merely killed the imposter, the changeling, the autism monster. No harm, no foul.
That 'Autism Team' proposal is sick. I want to go into a raging meltdown at the thought of such exploitative, disgusting trash. Showing already vulnerable children at their most vulnerable times and selling their dignity and humanity to the highest bidder is a concept that could only come from someone bordering on sociopathic. They're not misbehaving pets or badly-dressed adults in need of makeovers FFS, they need actual help, not biomeddling bullsh¡t dressed as therapy.
Not even going to give Sheila Tzorfas' word-salad the oxygen of publicity. Senseless cult-influenced drivel that it is.
Now now Orac, murderous ~Warrior Mommies~ aren't to blame for brutally killing their children. The Government/Pharmocracy/Babykilling-so-called-doctors dunnit.
Anyway, even if they did do it, it's not like they killed their "real" child, is it? They merely killed the imposter, the changeling, the autism monster. No harm, no foul.
That 'Autism Team' proposal is sick. I want to go into a raging meltdown at the thought of such exploitative, disgusting trash. Showing already vulnerable children at their most vulnerable times and selling their dignity and humanity to the highest bidder is a concept that could only come from someone bordering on sociopathic. They're not misbehaving pets or badly-dressed adults in need of makeovers FFS, they need actual help, not biomeddling bollocks dressed as therapy.
Not even going to give Sheila Tzorfas' word-salad the oxygen of publicity. Senseless cult-influenced drivel that it is.
I just *knew* you would be covering this "CBS This Morning" Attkisson segment Orac.
Weeks ago, I found a local anti-vaccine radio show, where Wakefield was interviewed and where he stated his Autism Media Channel had an 18 minute documentary about Alex's life and death, that he was trying to sell to a network TV show.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/thecandystore/2013/07/14/our-special-guest…
"Our Special Guest: Dr. Andrew Wakefield (Part 2). Dr. Wakefield discusses his new documentary on the Autism Media Channel titled "Who Killed Alex Spourdalakis". The Autism Media Channel presents a prelude to murder – an unprecedented documentary insight into the events that precipitated the tragic death of a Chicago child with autism – a child killed by his mother and Godmother, themselves broken by the indifference and prejudice of the medical system. Alex’s tragedy is a story of our time, capturing the iniquity of autism as perceived as a psychiatric oddity rather than a medical disease. Also, we discuss many other topics. Tune in!!"
At that time, I didn't think he would be successful...forgetting that Ms. Attkisson has always carried the water for the anti-vaccine crowd..and forgetting that Ms Attkisson loves to have all her vaccine "stories" prepackaged for her and tied up with pretty pink ribbons, by every disreputable character, including the charming (smarmy) Andrew Wakefield.
What a disgrace she is to journalists everywhere and in particular her colleagues at CBS news TV.
It's pretty obvious that Wakefield, Krigsman and Tommey were there, working the mother up into a frenzy. Who killed Alex indeed?
I only hope the lawyers working on the trial are paying attention to this involvement. If I was the mother's attorney, I would have her come clean about the people who were trying to get into her head.
Hey lilady,
Did you see where the AofA commenters are going to try to complain to National Geographic to get this ScienceBlog pulled because of your protest letter to CBS?
@ Woo Fighter: I sure did see those comments.
The most charitable interpretation of Mr Wakefield's role is that he did not realise the mental fragility of the woman he was trying to exploit; he did not realise how his and Krigman's advice ("your son's situation is hopeless unless he receives this special GI treatment which is not available to him") would encourage her histrionic, catastrophising tendencies.
It is hard to be so charitable about his subsequent determination, when the success story ended badly, to figure out a new way to continue exploiting the changed situation.
What I'd like to say regarding Attkisson, Wakefield and the rest of them would never make it through the profanity filter.
Hvad fa'en for nogen lorte rapportering og totalt svineri fra møgkællingen Attkisson og hendes lort i hovedet kammerat Wakefield.
Well.
It looks like the profanity filter gets Danish too.
Whodathunkit?
@Woo Fighter - hilarious, isn't it? "Waaah, shut down RI because they're being meeeaaaan"
Let's see -
AOA - closed-circle hivemind with permabanning/censorship of dissenting commenters. Pushes pseudoscience and promotes dangerous practices.
RI - Open commenting, and an etiquette policy that allows even the most irritating trolls to speak their "mind" without censorship. So few past bans that when one is handed down it is a real event. Commenters encouraged to deal with trolls by debating and asking for proof of their theories. Promotion of scientific approaches to medicine/disease/related topics.
So why don't the AoA ~Warrior Mommies~ and biomeddlers come over here? There's nowt stopping them. The same can't be said for us commenting over there.
@hdb - Quite. "This will definitely cure him but sry2say he can't have it, so all hope is lost kthxbye"
Accessories to murder IMO
@Woo Fighter - I can see it now;
"Dear NatGeo,
WAAAAAHHH! They're being MEEEAAAN!
Pls2be stopping Orac's pocket money closing RI"
Or, y'know, they could just come over here and debate like adults. At least RI isn't a censorious hivemind that's pushing dangerous theories and encouraging abuse, and banning dissenters.
@hdb - Well said. They're real-life trolls. "lol this could totes fix your kid, but u cannot has. Sucks2bU"
They're accessories to abuse and murder IMO. I didn't ever think my opinion of Wan|<field could sink any lower than after the MMR/McCarthy/fundraising bashes, but he's gone and lowered the bar again..
Yikes the commenting is buggy today. I have a comment in mod that's posted at least twice.
@Woo Fighter - I can see it now;
"Dear NatGeo,
WAAAAAHHH! They're being MEEEAAAN!
Pls2be stopping Orac's pocket money closing RI"
Or, y'know, they could just come over here and debate like adults. At least RI isn't a censorious hivemind that's pushing dangerous theories and encouraging abuse, and banning dissenters.
@hdb - Well said. They're real-life trolls. "lol this could totes fix your kid, but u cannot has. Sucks2bU"
They're accessories to abuse and murder IMO. I didn't ever think my opinion of Snakefield could sink any lower than after the MMR/McCarthy/fundraising bashes, but he's gone and lowered the bar again..
@herr doktor bimler, I believe that Wakefield is either a sociopath or a psychopath. I can't think o any other explanation for his behaviour.
Aaand it went through that time. Looks like Scienceblogs has updated the naughty word list to include variations of swearings that substitute characters for letters,
I'll have to turn my creativity-weasel up a notch, BAM!
I don't know about elsewhere, but in the US killing your child never gets much hard time. 5 years ago, a Tucson mom only received 10 years for torturing (tying up and scalding) and drugging her 5 year-old autistic son: http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/mother-gets-years-in-death-of-boy… .
This ridiculously lax sentence came without any help from these detestable groups mentioned above.
AofA commenters are going to try to complain to National Geographic to get this ScienceBlog pulled because of your protest letter to CBS
"People should not be allowed to write to CBS to point out the biasses of programs they broadcasted. One person who committed this crime also posts comments on a blog hosted by NatGeo; therefore you should close that blog. Also, there are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate three."
Reminds me of how celts, during the middle age, would put an autistic child on the fire to make the faes give the "real" children back.
Of course, the truth was that the child died.
*sigh*
@T. : This just shows that the autism recovery rhetoric is just a modern packaging of the age old changeling myths.
-The real child has been 'stolen' or 'taken away' Check!
-To make the faeries give the 'real child' back, mistreat the one you have Check!
Faeries stealing children is as real as vaccines causing autism.
@hdb
Oh, I don't think that interpretation is available. I don't think it's the case that Wakefield didn't realize, but rather that he just didn't care. He had a show to promote, after all.
I don't know that it's generally true that sentences for killing your own child are particularly lenient, but still...
The woman has lost her child! Hasn't she suffered enough?
(yes, sarcasm)
"The Doctors WHO shot him with Aluminum, thimerosal (Mercury) embalming fluid, fetal cells, rats brains, parts of cows, pigs, caterpillars, ether and more in the name of health."
She forgot the eye of newt.
herr doktor Bimler @17 - fine Simpsons reference, I believe.
CBS should obviously get rid of Atkisson, who appears to be off her rocker -- but it's hard to imagine how loud the resulting howls about the Brave Maverick Reporter Fired for Reporting the Truth will be.
Horrendous story of inhumanity. I wonder what level of government intervention could have prevented the murder.
If you mention my name, you need to be accurate. I've read your stuff time and again, and it has never done anything more than make me chuckle. What's concerning is that you are an actual practicing physician. Kinda creepy. How do they feel about your rants?
Interestingly, Attkisson is often lauded (@ AoA) as being an excellent reporter**-
I guess leaving out relevant facts that would alert viewers to AoA's/ AJW's connection is what they
most like about her: this style resembles their own scientific filtration process which allows most relevant vaccines/ autism data to slip through the seive and disappear down the drain.
- in other anti-vax mania***, NaturalNews features a link to Jake's AI**** site.
** in contrast to their *betes noires*.
*** yes, I realise it's now a forbidden word. So what.
**** I used that abbreviation deliberately
You are an ass with a holier than thou arrogance beyond belief. You were not involved in the efforts to get Alex the help he needed that mainstream a-hole doctors denied him what his mother did is unconscionable. What the mainstream medical community has done to our children is also unconscionable....and you, sir, are , well....beyond reprehensible.
I believe that Wakefield is either a sociopath or a psychopath
A really nasty, selfish, manipulative narcissist is where my money is re: Wakefield.
You are an ass with a holier than thou arrogance beyond belief. You were not involved in the efforts to get Alex the help he needed that mainstream a-hole doctors denied hi. what his mother did is unconscionable. What the mainstream medical community has done to our children is also unconscionable....and you, sir, are , well....beyond reprehensible.
@Ms. Rubolino:
Accuracy matters to me. If I have been inaccurate about anything with respect to you, please be specific about what I was inaccurate about. Note that everything I have written has been documented with links to appropriate publicly available sources, and what wasn't documented was clearly labeled as reasonable conjectures based on those sources. Here's your chance to set the record straight:
1. Who reached out first? Did you and/or Joanna Reed reach out to Dorothy Spourdalakis first, or did Dorothy Spourdalakis reach out to you and/or Joanna Reed first?
2. What specific services did you offer her?
3. Did you help Dorothy Spourdalakis take Alex to see Dr. Krigsman?
Those are reasonable questions. Do you have reasonable answers? As I said, accuracy matters to me; so if you think you've been misrepresented, here's your chance. If you convince me, I might even add an addendum or change the relevant part of the post. Even if you don't convince me, you have every opportunity to put your side of the story here, and I'll highlight it.
You are an ass with a holier than thou arrogance beyond belief. You were not involved in the efforts to get Alex the help he needed that mainstream a-hole doctors denied hi. what his mother did is unconscionable. What the mainstream medical community has done to our children is also unconscionable....and you, sir, are , well....beyond reprehensible.
@Jill Rubolino - Just for the sake of clarification, what is it about Orac's comments that you find "kinda creepy"? His disgust that people are apparently trying to excuse murder? His concern that people are trying unproven and ineffective "treatments"? Or is it something else?
Thanks.
@ Jill Rubolino: Orac is a practicing physician and is a respected member of science blogging community.
And you? A registered nurse who aided and abetted Dorothy Spaudalakis to use Alex's disability in the most egregious manner before she brutally murdered him.
Crawl back to your hole at "Autism is Medical" ...you're more than kinda creepy. Ghoul.
Be prepared to defend your slander of others you mentioned in this rubbish you call science writing. The fact that you indicate he was being exploited clearly indicates that you are accusing those mentioned of exploiting him. Hmm? I smell potential lawsuits abound. Does that pass the "smell test" for you?
You are practicing out of your area of expertise. This issue does not concern you and you should butt out of what you know nothing about. You did not extend a hand to this family, nor did you care to. However, you have no problem, stealing your disgusting 5 minutes (even that's too much) of fame exploiting Alex and his mother and those who did try to help him. It is you, you sick quack who is exploiting these children and families for your own personal gain.
Y U MAKE ME MAD?!
OT ( but are ardent anti-vaccinationists with their panties in a bunch EVER truly OT @ RI?)
Sayer Ji is upset because UNICEF released a paper that detailed antivaccine 'influencers' in Central and Eastern Europe ( "Tracking anti-vaccination sentiment in Eastern European social media networks") listing;
Green Med Info ( his site), Mercola, Vactruth, Mothering, Dr Tenpenny's vaccine site, TMR, The Refusers, Natural News, Worldtruth.tv, Cafemom, VaccineInjury, Everyday Health, LB/RB**, Zen Gardener.
I could certainly add to that list.
Again- it's about EASTERN Europe- ( old saying:"lies travel halfway around the world...etc)
** I was wondering about that too-'influencers' might be neutral - not only ANTI-vax.
It is very sad and telling that Orac says, "I hope the case of Alex S. results in change" and then the only change mentioned is you hope that Sharyl Attkisson catches some heat for it_no mention of your hopes for more awareness of severe autism , more research into bowel problems, such as Alex obviously sufered from. It goes without saying that his mother should not have taken the actions she did. Oh and someone (Elburto?) Commented on noone wanting to come here and discuss this. That is rich ciming from her who recently told a doctor to "take a flying fvck...my I don't give a shjt tank is empty so I don't care about your..."
Careful Orac. Jill Rubolino, RN brags she's a "lawyer in a nurse's body".
You'd better get a real lawyer to advise you Jill, just in case the Cook County State's Attorney calls you to testify at Dorothy Spourdalakis' murder trial.
What kind of medical advice did you provide to Dorothy? Tsk, Tsk, nurse Rubolino, that medical advice is beyond the scope of nursing practice.
Stagmom has mentioned the Karen McCarron case, which has many similarities to the Spourdalakis case. McCarron, a physician, was convicted of the 2006 premeditated murder of her six year old autistic daughter, by putting a plastic bag over her head and suffocating her. McCarron blamed vaccines for her child's autism
McCarron's lawyer attempted an insanity defense but she was convicted and is still in prison, in spite of an appeal, which was denied:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_McCarron
Mr. Orac,
Here's what is inaccurate:
"Reed and/or Rubolino as local “autism biomed” advocates"
I'm not sure what you mean by this phrase. You utilize terms "biomed" and "quackery" often. I am not local, nor am I a biomed advocate. Including my name in your lengthy blog about something you are obviously not familiar with, is your right. I'm not obligated to answer your questions, nor do I feel the need to "convince" you of anything. Contrary to the popular belief here, your blog doesn't represent cutting edge reporting. I just took the time to mention the inaccurate reference. I think you as well as your followers should keep in mind that this child was murdered. There will be a trial. Inflammatory and accusatory statements about other medical professionals using terms like "aided and abetted" are taken seriously. I often wondered how your employer tolerates your extracirricular activities and if it affects your relationship with your colleagues, patients, and administration at the hospital that employs you. I just want to inform you that using my name inaccurately is not something I'm comfortable with.
Thanks for your consideration.
Woo fighter, it wasn't just about lilady's letter and you know that. Elburto, that's rich when you say we should comment here and debate like adults. This from the woman that told a doctor to "take a flying fvck at a rolling donut... My I don't give a shjt tank is empty... I don't care about..." That's really 'adult.'
It goes without saying that this poor child should not have been murdered by his mother (though I will say it because many of you will try to twist this somehow).
I do find it very sad that Orac concludes he "hopes that the case of Alex Spourdalakis results in change" and then that ONLY change being that he hopes Sharyl Attkisson gets punished somehow for being a part of it. He made no mention of hoping there is more awareness of severe autism, no mention of the hope for better diagnosis and treatment of bowel problems in children such as Alex. That is truly sad and reveals his bias. Also, most parents who use bio-med are not cases of "Munchausen's by Proxy." Just sayin.' This will be my only comment because yes, some of thou people do scare me.
@Jill - how about explaining exactly what "medical" procedures that Alex was undergoing before his visit to the Hospital? Why was it that he only became violent (to the point where his mother had to call the police to assist her in getting him to the Doctor) when he was going to get "treated?"
What exactly was going on here? We have statements made by his family (not his Mom) to say that Alex was kind and gentle, loved music, etc - yet his mother portrays him as non-verbal, violent, angry, etc.....What was she doing to him?
I do hope that the Prosecutor calls all of the AoA crowd involved as witnesses or "persons-of-interest" to get the whole story on what happened during the last few weeks....because it certainly looks like you threw the mother to the curb once you couldn't get any more press out of both her and Alex.....
Yet there will never be justice, in my opinion.
Here's something I've been wondering, especially after reading all the sides on this whole thing. When Andrew Wakefield made that video with Alex in the background, did Andrew Wakefield go back to his mansion in Austin right away, or did he stick around to make sure Alex went somewhere safe?
Alex was taken to Kringsmann (at what cost and who paid?) and was diagnosed with bowel trouble, what treatment was given? And, if a treatment was given, it was obviously not enough to prevent his mother from killing Alex. If it wasn't given, why?
Finally, what's the purpose of showing the "documentary" about Alex's last days? To justify his murder?
I wish the people involved in all this would not come here to demand that their name not be mentioned or that this person or that would lose their job, or to make veiled threats. I wish they came here to answer the simple question of why didn't Andrew Wakefield and his Autism Media Channel friends not do what the (government, social agencies, hospitals, doctors, whatever) didn't/couldn't/wouldn't do? Do they not have the resources, the cash, a mansion in Texas?
did that really just happen? Wait until the ghost of ee cummings rolls in with litigation pistols a-blazin' due to an errant comma or their/there violation.
Well, let's see. You started Autism Is Medical (AIM) with Joanna Reed, did you not? Here's the Meetup page:
That's the rhetoric of the autism biomed movement.
Did you not write this post, Loyola University Health System - Where Do I Fucking Begin? There we find:
Wakefield and Krigsman are big autism biomed heroes.
Then there's this post on TMR, where you are credited for a whole lot of autism biomed. And did you write this post at AoA, where you say:
That's definitely autism biomed rhetoric, particularly the part where you claim to know more about how to treat the "medical condition of autism." You were even described as starting a company to "educate doctors and parents" about autism biomed treatments:
I will admit, though, I mistakenly thought you were local, rather than in Texas. The text will be altered to reflect that. As I said, accuracy matters, and I'm sorry for that mistake. When I'm caught in a genuine error, rather than a difference of opinion, I do correct it.
Why didn't I take up this cause before? It was, quite frankly, because I didn't become truly aware of it until after Alex's murder hit the news. I do recall seeing some mention of Alex several months ago, but I didn't investigate. In retrospect, I wish I had.
Finally, regarding "exploitation," you really are being rather silly. Let's look at what I wrote:
I see no reason not to stand by this characterization.
And:
Yes, I did characterize Sharyl Attkisson's report as exploiting Alex Spourdalakis' murder to promote her antivaccine-sympathetic agenda. I also do think she lied by omission because I think Attkisson is too intelligent not to know the connection between Wakefield and the Autism Media Channel. If I am wrong about her and she was honestly ignorant of that connection, then I have to come to the conclusion that she is the most incompetent reporter I've ever seen. That is my opinion. I also think that Andrew Wakefield and Polly Tommy's video segments featured in Attkisson's story were exploitative. That, too, is an opinion that's shared not just by me but by quite a few of my readers. Even some AoA denizens were uneasy about those shots.
Jen, Jen, Jen. How many times have we gone there? NO ONE argues that children, autistic or otherwise, with bowel issues, need treatment. However, there is NO PROOF that Alex ever suffered with them. No medical records, no pathology report. Give us proof and we'll accept it.
Again, you have no proof that any of the bio-med treatments work. Certainly, any that have undergone actual scientific testing have not been shown to be effective. Gluten-free diets, other diets, when medically necessary, are useful. Deciding "just because" to put your child on a restrictive diet is not useful. As for HBOT, bleach enemas, chelation and other abhorrent practices, don't mention them.
@Ms Rubolino: nice dancing around the subject. Orac asked you for examples of errors so he can correct them. You have given none. Unlike your comment, he gives links to document what he says. Is there something wrong with his links? Tell him and he will correct them. Unlike many others (i.e. AOA), he cares about inaccuracies.
Also, nice hidden threat there about Orac's patients, coworkers and employers. Just be aware that others have tried to "out" him and get him fired - it hasn't worked because his employers are aware of his "extracurricular activities" and, as intelligent, science-based medical personnel, they support him. I doubt his patients really care, as long as he treats them appropriately for the issues they are seeing him for.
Gaah! Edit error. Second sentence should read " NO ONE argues that children...with bowel issues, DON'T need treatment."
Sci blogs seems to hate my computer today - it's crashed twice trying to comment.
p.s., "Elburto"- re. "Munchausen's by Proxy" ( a diagnosis many of you seem to be pushing for in cases such as Alex's) The 'godfather' of this conteoversial theory was Dr.Roy Meadow. He was struck off the medical registrar and charged with severe incompetence in 2005. His wife noted that he saw cases of this everywhere and that she wished he could have been stopped- she said she felt he was a mysogenist. As someone interested in women's rights I would think you might be interested in this. Is everyone who gives their child probiotics, vit d etc. a potential child abuser? Should Alex not have been scoped to help diagnose and treat his horrendous pain issues?
@lilady
I don't know who you are because you don't use your name. I just caution you to not make false accusatory statements. You're absolutely right, I may be called as a witness. I don't give medical advice because I am not a medical doctor and this is not a patient related matter. I am just stating that while you have the right to your opinion, regardless how much I may disagree with you, at the minimum, you need to avoid making false statements.
Thank you.
There's a good reason why some commenters here don't use their real names. Most of my readers know who I am, and I've paid the price. For example, three years ago the folks at Age of Autism tried to get me fired from my job with what was clearly an incorrect allegation of conflicts of interest. The bombarded my university's board of governors with complaints. In reality, they were trying to shut me up by harassing me at my job. They failed, fortunately. Indeed, the dean asked me if I felt threatened and wanted protection.
Just this year, a fan of Dr. Stanislaw Burzynski complained to my cancer center director and dean. I believe these are deliberate attempts to try to shut me up by causing problems for me at work. Fortunately, thus far they have failed and likely will continue to do so.
@Jen - why didn't Wakefield, with his wealth, take Alex & his mother under his wing and provide for treatment himself?
He was there, he had the video made, he was aware of the situation - why exactly didn't he step in to help personally? You guys made this your cause, thus you took ownership & now you have to accept responsibility for what occurred after.....the murder took place after Alex as removed from the Hospital & treated....what exactly occurred between his exit from the hospital & the murder?
Inquiring minds want to know - and so will the Prosecutors.
I think that Jill Rubolino was local to Chicago. She created the Autism is Medical meet up group, which is located in Plainfield Il, just outside Chicago. She now appears to have created another meet up group in Houston Texas.
"For our Texas Friends: The date is finally set for the Autism is Medical- Houston first meetup! So, if you're in the area make sure to stop by to exchange intro's with Jill & Nikki!
We're super excited to get started and can't wait to meet you!
Don't forget to help us spread the word to any friends that might be interested.
Hope to see you there!"
__
A person search shows that she used to live in Plainfield Il, and now lives in Sugar Land TX, just outside Houston.
@Jen - we only have his mother's word that Alex as suffered from "extreme abdominal distress." This conflicts with the statements from the rest of the family.
Could it have been various "biomed" treatments, including MMS or even Chelation therapy that caused Alex to be in great fear of "doctors?"
Again, inquiring minds want to know....
Likely true, but I don't know where she was living from last fall to the time of Alex's murder, whether it was in Texas or suburban Chicago. So I just scrubbed the word "local" because she objected and I didn't know. It changes nothing of substance.
Mr. Orac
Yes, you are able to use the internet. Thank you for that. No, I did not post that particular post on Loyola's website. Yes, I do use my real name because I am capable of doing so. I guess what you consider "biomed rhetoric" I consider actual medical problems. Therefore, it must be a difference of opinion. Your other reference is to something I wrote and submitted to AoA, not TMR. I wrote that from a parent perspective. What I'm trying to say is that just as you feel that you were harassed at your job, I want to be clear that making statements of opinion and making accusations are two separate things. I encourage your readers to use their real names so we can all be adults. It's much easier to make statements that are threatening in nature when you don't use your name.
An interesting exercise on the having of an opinion, or rather, how one isn't allowed to have an opinion when they do not have the ability to successfully back it up using legitimate evidence and expertise, Miss Rubino. This has been making the rounds for awhile, and I'm sure many of the frequent commentators of the blog have seen it, but it is relevant re: your statement to lillady. One is entitled to their opinion when they can provide the sources, and subsequently allow them to be critiqued by the experts.
https://theconversation.com/no-youre-not-entitled-to-your-opinion-9978
Aside from that, I would like to interject another recently oft quoted statement, "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."
Interestingly, I was unaware of your, "emphatic" letter to Loyola that was posted by Orac. Please provide links to the studies you claim in the letter to have substantiated Mr. Wakefield's case study. And while you claim that many of us have blind faith in an article showing him to be a fraud--I'd like to lift a toast to Mr. Deer--many of us have seen PDFs the original altered biopsy reports and compared them to the paper ourselves. That right there is enough to constitute fraud. Although I will admit to putting more trust in the BMA investigating and finding inconsistencies in medical records with what was put in the papers than someone who writes a letter to a respected university with the language you did, so I concede on faith in that respect. Please provide the links to the studies you described in that letter and I will read them accordingly and critique them based on MY expertise.
And please answer Orac's questions. I am curious as to hear the WHOLE story about how they became involved with your group. We jump to conclusions when genuine inquires are circumvented.
Really scared
@ Ren:
IIRC, ulcers are relatively easy to dx/ treat with meds-
I didn't learn that from University of Google but through observing several older family members' self-medication with aspirin ( and simliar meds) for arthritis interact with very long clotting times ( we are not related to Queen Victoria- btw-).
For some reason, various hospitals in diverse locales had no problem diagnosis ulcers even in the mild cases that didn't require massive amounts of transfused blood or in unconscious patients.
How could they miss it in this case?
pardonez moi- DIAGNOSING
@RI Regulars,
I'll comment when I'll step down from being madly furious but I wholeheartedly recommend that the prosecution sue for a hate crime and that Wakefield et al being accessory to murder. There is much wrong on so many level.
Alain
Well, you' ve successfully melted my brain. Next time I want a time capsule review of all that I have ever said I'll be sure to call you. My vision is now affected from all the rearranging of commentary and I'm approaching a migraine and complete loss of faith in the human race. It seems as though I have been wrong my entire life and those posting here are the intellectual elite. I'll be posting from now on to check with you on a daily basis to see what direction I should go in.
About what? No one has threatened you, least of all I. I merely expressed my disgust with Sharyl Attkisson's slanted reporting and the implied message that it's better to be dead than disabled.
In any case, here's another commentary worth reading:
http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2013/09/cbss-sharyl-attkis…
Oh yay, the muppet and sockpuppet brigade are here to play! Took you long enough, did you triple-dipple-dog-dare each other to do it after frothing about it at your wretched hive of martyrdom?
@Jen - Please link to where I said those words you've attributed to me about MBP please, then I'll discuss it.
WRT to your precious self-publicising "Paediatrician to the Stars" please link to where I used the word "donut". I wouldn't, because it's not a BritEng word. I would have used "doughnut". Pedantic? Sure, but link me to the quote anyway so I can see the context. Dollars to doughnuts (DYSWIDT?) it was on the day that he attempted to out me, causing substantial risk of harm given my personal situation, and implied that I held some sort of grudge against all doctors due to my situation. He then, after attempts to out me, accused me of stalking him, and then stupidly denied it five minutes later, despite it being there in black and white.
So, I'll tell you what I told him.
1. The title 'Doctor' does not entitle the bearer automatic respect.
2. I have nothing against doctors as a class. However, I despise people who threaten the safety of vulnerable people, and thus cause conditions that lead to death and permanent impairment. Likewise those who consort with and enable AIDS-denialists, again leading to death and unnecessary suffering.
Sadly, little Eliza-Jane Scoville cannot speak for herself, so it seems like he has taken to tracking down and implicitly threatening those who speak on her behalf.
3. Anyone who knowingly withholds treatment from someone unable to advocate for themselves, and anyone who enables that behaviour, is guilty of neglect at the very least. If the withholding of treatment leads to pain, worsening of symptoms, or any discomfort or distress on the part of the patient - then that is abuse.
Nobody is exempt from that, there's not one person who has the right to deny the individual that they are "caring" for access to effective treatment because they, as "caregiver", have adopted a warped mindset that they believe bestows them with the ability to diagnose and treat the condition themselves.
And yes, that includes all of your biomeddling buddies. Supplements are not treatment. Bleach is not treatment. Children who have legitimate care withheld from them have the potential to suffer for the rest of their lives because of that.
Autism is developmental delay, not developmental stasis. Any improvements to the health and behaviour of the children of biomeddling streets are in spite of those "interventions", not because of them.
If you are serious (we are generally unmoved by snark such as calling us the "intellectual elite"; we're just skeptics and scientists), recognizing that you might be wrong about autism biomed is a good first step towards rejoining the science-based community. Even just starting to have a little bit of doubt that's enough to make you look for actual good studies, instead of accepting the glowing testimonials dressed up as case reports that are the favored form of evidence in autism biomed, would be a good first step.
As Orac points out - the "better dead than disabled" trope pushed by the likes of those backing Dorothy Spourdalakis is one that takes the lives of innumerable children and adults. Not only that, it contributes to the neglect and abuse of people with disabilities.
When we are constantly dehumanised by the type of disgusting rhetoric bandied about by the very organisations that claim to speak for us, but instead speak over us, and when science is rejected and denied in favour of "other ways of knowing", is it any wonder that the neglect, abuse, and murder of PWD is as prevalent as it is?
Orac, let's go for coffee and talk about it.
I hope no one is bothered that I take some of these matters personally - I have an autism spectrum *condition* (I object to the use of "disorder" in this context), and I have an autistic nephew that I love dearly, just as everyone else who knows him does.
I want to address comments about a few things that bother me to the antivaxxers and the woomonger mommies.
First, no one was "stolen". We are the children you have. We are real people, not some changelings or defective simulacra. Take us on our own terms as the people we are, learn to cope with us (as we have to with you!), and everyone concerned will be a lot happier. Your neurotypical supremacist ideas are demeaning and hateful. Not everyone has to be you.
Second, you have peculiar ideas about human physiology and development. I have less grounding in the way the human central nervous system develops than a "real" scientist does, but I understand quite clearly that no treatment, no magic bullet, no detoxification, no fairy godmother's wand, will radically change the architecture of a human brain much after early childhood. I am not about to gain an ability to read faces and body languages without effort from any chelation of any substance. My nephew is not about to drop his fixation with trains and planes, his food aversions, or his love for animated movies for a sudden interest in derivatives trading and singles mixers at the Y from any enema with bleach or any other toxic substance your warped minds and your even more warped doctor "friends" can dream up.
Get back to reality. You are really despicable people and I am very glad right now that I only have to deal with you over the 'Net, and not in my physical vicinity. And as for Mr. Wakefield, let him take his thirty pieces of silver and go home.
"Really scared."
I think I used that retort on a playground once when I was 11.
I would like to take this moment to point out that while I have long been a fan of dear Orac, this was the straw that broke the camel's back and brought me out of lurking. Many thanks to those of you capable of watching said videos in their entirety, or reading anti-vax woo (or woo in general). When I try I can usually feel my IQ dropping and have to sit on my hands to avoid putting my fist through my computer screen.
@ AnObservingParty:
Your general intelligence cannot drop from merely reading woo: it takes more actual physical plummeling to affect deep-seated abilities such as quantitive, verbal et al.
You're fine, Take a deep breath and read incrementally more week by week: in this fashion, you will eventually de-sensitivise yourself and will stop desiring to physically damage instruments of electronic communication in retribution for the infliction of psychological distress by mis-informational sources making use of the same via the internet.
It will all work out for the best. You're stronger than you think. Trust me.
#25 If you're laughing at this post, I really do think there's something wrong with you.
There will be a trial. Inflammatory and accusatory statements about other medical professionals using terms like “aided and abetted” are taken seriously.
If only some “lawyer in a nurse’s body” had passed on this helpful advice to Attkisson and the Wakefield Media Channel before CBS screened their attack on Lutheran General Hospital!
PegP @27, Mom @31: repeating a comment is understandable when the first two go into moderation, but is it really so hard to stick to one pseudonym in the process?
@ Nurse Rubolino: Thanks for the advice about using my "real name". Do you think I post under a 'nym because I am being devious? I know of other instances where science bloggers have had their jobs threatened by the "journalists" and the groupies at AoA.
Everyone of the "journalists" at AoA have written libelous articles about respected science bloggers, scientists, researchers, mainstream media journalists and doctors. Jake Crosby, who, before he went rogue, physically stalked these same people and blogged about his stalkings; the crowd over at AoA applauded him for his stalking behaviors.
I providing my best advice to you as a registered nurse. You have put your license on the line by advising Dorothy Spaudalakis and other parents of autistic kids about "bio-medical" interventions. Get yourself a real Illinois attorney, because you will be subpoenaed as a witness by the State or by Dorothy's defense attorney.
Better get yourself a Texas attorney as well, because your bio-medical "advice" goes beyond the scope of nursing practice.
@ Denice Walter,
Thank you for your encouragement. I also take heart in knowing that if during my adventures in de-sensitivation (sp?) I become overwhelmed, I can come back to places such as these for some soothing reason.
I'm also curious if this will perhaps go viral and create outrage like that of the letter from the neighbor in Canada advising a mother to euthanize her autistic son a few weeks ago. The backlash was overwhelming. That was only a harassing letter, this CBS report is shining light on the act itself actually occurring. Perhaps it will backfire and this will be the final nail in Wakefield's coffin because even on a more mainstream (for lack of a better word) level, I can imagine the general response being "WTF?!?!" There is a relatively silent majority on these matters who know these people are abhorrent nut-jubs (I believe that is their proper name) who only tend to come out in droves when someone is actually killed. One can actually hope. Teh hoo-mans have done more surprising things.
@AnObservingParty - Welcome to the fray! Don't let the flying woo-monkeys get you down, they're easy enough to deal with..,
... Well, as long as you're not a vulnerable person who depends upon one of them for care.
@ORD - Hear hear! You cannot 'fix' something that isn't broken. It's sad that some people are so threatened by the thought of those of us who aren't neurotypical daring to speak up for ourselves and for those "family members" who are unable to speak for themselves.
Protip for the ~Warrior Mommies~ and those who insist that non-NT people are "broken", who claim they acting in our best interests-
The rallying cry is:
and not:
@lilady - I'm just sorry that I haven't been a big enough pain in the side of the anti-vax folks to have been called out specifically....just means I guess I need to work that much harder, doesn't it?
@Yourworstnightmare*
Oh, look, insinuation of a bumptious legal threat from someone who doesn't know the difference between libel and slander. That's always sure to strike terror into whomever one is whining about.
Here's a hint, YWN: I'd say "I smell potential lawsuits abound," too, except for a couple of things: (1) That's not an English sentence. (2) The targets I would have in mind aren't exactly the ones that you imagine. If you don't think Alex's surviving family could drag third parties with deeper pockets into a wrongful death suit as defendants, you're sorely mistaken.** Meritorious or not, mounting a defense doesn't come cheap.
* Somehow, half-witted RI comments don't even make an appearance on my nightmare tally.
** One would have to establish that a duty was created when an effort was organized to "liberate" Alex from a situation in which he was being provided standard of care in favor of being removed to a "safe, secret" location and arranging for different "treatments." Negligence would further hinge on knowledge gained of the killers' states of mind during this escapade before the defendants simply walked away from it.
Lilady, if libelous articles had been written about "respected science bloggers, scientists, " etc., there is an appropriate judicial forum for those types of cases and I am surprised these learned folks haven't pursued these cases in said forum.
Be careful on the advice you doll out to Ms. Rubolino. You're walking a fine legal line. Sounds a bit like you are providing unsolicited legal advice. Don't forget, there is very real murder case currently ongoing. Caveat venditor. And I would doubt that Ms. Rubolino would accept legal advice from a science blogger; I suspect she has been made fully aware of any legal implications surrounding this case from informed and competent legal professionals, not those making not-so-veiled threats on a "science blog".
Advising someone to retain a lawyer if you think they might be in legal trouble or are likely to be subpoenaed in a trial or lawsuit is hardly the sort of advice that is going to cause anyone a problem with "providing unsolicited legal advice." Seriously, it's such a no-brainer as far as advice goes and it doesn't advocate any legal strategy other than consulting a lawyer.
Be careful on the advice you doll out to Ms. Rubolino. You’re walking a fine legal line.
Legal-sounding advice against offering legal-sounding advice? Things are getting too meta for me.
Orac, thank you for clearing that up so quickly. But you'd be surprised at actions that courts have deemed to be, what you call a no-brainer, providing unlicensed legal counsel. I agree with you that In this instance, it appears to be either a poorly veiled threat or an attempt at cyber intimidation. But as I said, you'd be surprised.
@Susan - unfortunately, nothing with these people surprises me anymore......
Perhaps you should also offer this sage warning to the geniuses who maneuvered to get a lopsided, 18-minute ass-covering video on national television, given that having seen it is immediately relevant to voir dire.
Susan: What legal threat...veiled or otherwise...did I "doll" out to nurse Rubolino?
Gee, I wish that a registered nurse who knows the ANA Standards of Practice, would weigh in.
-lilady, RN, BSc-Nursing
If providing legal advice is a PROBLEM what about ...
uh......
well,
oh right....providing MEDICAL advice?
No, it's business-as-usual by the usual suspects.
There's my real name. Use it wisely. The audience of "The Vaccine Machine" once celebrated that I had shot myself in the head when, in fact, it was a similarly-named person out in Texas. Ah, Texas, where defrocked British physicians can live in mansions and travel to others states to make videos while using autistic children and sideshow props.
I'll tell you one thing: If it would have meant getting Alex science and evidence-based treatment, I would have moved out of a mansion and into an efficiency apartment. Where is Andrew Wakefield sleeping tonight?
What’s concerning is that you are an actual practicing physician. Kinda creepy. How do they feel about your rants?
I am still trying to work out what is so creepy about 'actual practicing physicians'. On my own personal scale of creepiness, they come in well below (say) clowns and street mimes.
Also trying to work out who is the "they" here, whose attitude to Orac's blogging is in question. The NSA? The Illuminati? The Swedish prime minister and two like-minded friends?
Ms. Rubolino: " There will be a trial. Inflammatory and accusatory statements about other medical professionals using terms like “aided and abetted” are taken seriously."
Actually, I think that the Attisson's report on CBS is a type of jury tampering.
Perhaps the trial will be more revealing than you and your friends will want. At that time the real doctors can testify without violating HIPAA.
@lilady - is there any good way to contact you offline?
This is depressing enough without people actually having the gall to come here to actually defend the despicable behavior of some of those participating. Astonishing.
The only hopeful thing I see is Jill's statements:
I know you are being sarcastic but it really does seem to me that you have Jill. Sadly I think you have too much invested in the BS you have embraced to come back to reality.
What legal threat…veiled or otherwise…did I “doll” out to nurse Rubolino?
I imagine that threats are 'dolled out' when they are delivered in person by a knife-brandishing Chuckie.
Hmm? I smell potential lawsuits abound.
One of my Rules for Interduct Commenting is that you lose credibility when you start doing bee impersonations.
@ Lawrence: Orac, Liz Ditz and Todd W. at Harpocrates Speaks have my email address...tell 'em lilady sent you. :-)
Rene F. Najera: Was Andy successful in his attempt to sell the 18 minute documentary to a major TV network? Is that the reason why his $ 1,450,000 home which was listed for sale, went off the market 3 weeks ago?
Here we have Andy Wakefield's article (P 17) in the Autism File e-mag. Scroll down to see Andy's credentials, especially "founder of the Autism Media Channel"...in spite of the fact he and Polly tried to scrub his name off the site. Look at the hypothetical dialogue (script?), that Wakefield wrote, about Alex's behavior in the hospital emergency room and the pipe dreams he has that everything about the vaccine-autism connection will be settled in a Texas courtroom. BTW, nurse Rubolino is mentioned in that article.
http://www.pageturnpro.com/Publications/201308/3263/52865/pdf/130223553…
"An observing party" (brave anonymous poster- probably a pharma employee). What on earth are you suggesting?! A comparison between an overwrought parent who was let down by the hospital who would not address Alex's physical pain issues, ultimately murdering their child (which obviously they should not have done) to a horrible neighbour who stated a severely autistic young man should be euthanized?! That is one sick comparison and the only backlash that will be overwhelming in this case will be against the so- called medical professionals who let this young man down. Those kinds of comparisons make you guys seem really twisted and grasping at straws.
This whole thing is disgusting. Mrs. Spourdalakis should have had Alex taken away from her, and I keep wondering why Alex's father didn't sue for custody when they divorced.. I wish the A o A 'ladies' would just shut up; there's nothing more awful than women who make fools of themselves in public. And Wakefield is just a Svengali, but even more repugnant than the original. The 'gut-brain' hypothesis doesn't even make sense.
@Jen - so what exactly happened after Alex was released from the Hospital? I thought he was under the care of Dr. Krigsman? Did something change?
Why didn't Wakefield step in with his deep pockets? I would have thought Alex was tailor-made to support his hypothesis?
@Jen Yes, I am remaining anonymous, because I know the history of cranks harassing professionals. And while I do work in health-care research, no, Big Pharma doesn't pay me anything. Way to sneak that in there, btw. The go-to accusation. But if they do, the checks are getting lost in the mail and perhaps they should switch to direct deposit because I have yet to receive anything. And please tell me how you are any more transparent in your name? I can't imagine you're the only Jen on all teh interwebs.
And yes, I am comparing it. I do wonder how you know the hospital was not addressing his pain issues? No one can seem to answer that question aside from some people with some pretty shady conflicts of interest. Of course, as has been pointed out, when the case comes to trial, the doctors at the hospitals will no longer be bound by HIPAA and we'll get that information: if Alex was being treated as was medically indicated--probably--and if the hospital refused biomed quackery with no support or medical indication. Also, probably.
Now back to the letter: how are Ms. Spourdalakis' actions any different from what was suggested by that neighbor? Please explain. The letter was appalling, Ms. Spourdalakis is appalling, and Wakefield et al. are appalling for trying to absolve her actions. By doing so, they are belittling the lives of those with ASD, thinking, feeling human beings who interact with and enrich the lives of those around them. Would the same be done for a mother who killed her child with Downs? Or how about one killing a teenager whose schizophrenia has started to manifest? Or any other disability/disease/condition? Explain to me how any reaction other than OUTRAGE is appropriate. Spourdalakis murdered/euthanized her son. How is it grasping at straws to say it deserves even more outrage than that letter?
I can't wait for the medical records to come to light, as nobody in the "know" seems willing to divulge what happened in the hospital. Interestingly enough, documented evidence of help offered and denied has come to light, and since you and yours place SO much faith in gut-reactions, my gut tells me that's only the tip of the ice berg.
@lilady, since this group is so good at "scrubbing" away things like fact and evidence when it inconveniences them and their bottom line, I'd worry that pdf will some how disappear or become altered.
"Jen" is probably a pharma employee herself. Note how much she wants children to become ill with vaccine-preventable diseases that would bankrupt the system with the needs of thousands of those children requiring antibiotics, hospitalization, and artificial ventilation. (We can all play the "pharma shill" game, Jen [if that's even your real name].)
@Ren, why, prevention costing less than treatment? Stop using your brain. Thinking is silly.
Interestingly enough, my real name is Jennifer. I could start using it, but as I pointed out, it would hardly make me any less anonymous.
@Ren - you bring up a good point that Doctors & Hospitals have so much more to gain (i.e. profit) from the return of VPDs, but instead, they put aside those thoughts of profit to instead push prevention of disease....no wonder the AoA people can't reconcile that idea in their heads....
Well well well, it looks like Orac turned over a mighty big rock. I see that a correction has been issued regarding your residency as well as background that unequivocally shows you know damn well what biomed is and you most certainly "advocate" for it. Quite arrogantly I might add. I would imagine you are quite uncomfortable having the light of day shone on your activities and involvement with this heinous case. Too bad.
You came here and commented remember? You claimed inaccuracies but now don't feel compelled to elaborate? I suppose you are quite used to preaching to the choir and not getting challenged. And now you are out of your echo chamber it is quite obvious how arrogantly ignorant you are.
Too bad if you aren't "comfortable"; making sure your comfort is tended to isn't paramount or even considered in light of your involvement with this case. I have found that those who resort to such threats are unable to rise to the challenge because you are out of your comfort zone. I have also noticed that there is often a backlash experienced by those who feel compelled to silence their critics with threats rather than participate in debate.
Somehow, I don't think my law certificate will cover US laws but am definitely curious as how it will play out in court for the 2 woman's (Spourdalakis and her caregiver) as well as for Wakefield et al. but it will definitely be something that I'm gonna analyze.
Alain
Aided & abetted...sounds exactly like what Wakefield and others did in this particular situation...fed into a mother's paranoia and persecution complex to the point to where she felt like there was no other alternative....despite having access to state-sponsored care and offers of assistance from multiple quarters....once again, Jill, Jen, et. al. what exactly was said to this woman between the time she was contacted by AoA & the murder?
Or should we just make sure the Prosecutors send out those subpoenas?
@Alain - deposing Wakefield (at minimum) to ascertain the woman's metal state should be a given at this point. As to correspondence with others, it should also be a given that material is pertinent and discoverable by the Prosecution, should it be necessary....if the Defendants plan on filing an insanity defense, they may call upon those same people to swear in Court exactly what they told the family (i.e. your son is irrevocably damaged, etc) - so I don't think this is going to turn out good for any of them, regardless of who issues the subpoenas....
It might be worth keeping in mind that the assumption throughout these comments that there will be a trial is a bit premature.
Or should we just make sure the Prosecutors send out those subpoenas?
We should just make sure the Prosecutors send out the subpoenas :)
Alain
"an observing party" the word "crank" and "teh" totally gives you away. Very convenient you would show up at this time! There are no words to convey what a stupid comparison there is between a desperate mother whose son was denied any kind of real treatment from a medical hospital when her son was suffering and escalating in Tim's of behaviour and someone who writes a hate letter like that poor Toronto mother got!
PGP - I completely agree with you. Alex's mother should have given up custody- anything but what happened.
Typical PGP comment. What does their gender have anything to do with anything?
jen @94
"brave anonymous poster"
jen @107
"Very convenient you would show up at this time!"
There's a word for this phenomenon.
If the problem was lack of cash, then we need to do a little mental exercise.
1. Go to this page and search "Autism Media Channel": h_ttp://ourcpa.cpa.state.tx.us/coa/
2. That will take you to this page: h_ttp://ourcpa.cpa.state.tx.us/coa/servlet/cpa.app.coa.CoaGetTp?Pg=tpid&Search_Nm=Autism%20Media%20Channel%20&Button=search&Search_ID=32043336927
3. Google the address there, and you will see that one of the many results is this youtube video, describing the property: h_ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPfd3BrNEfQ
You will also see a page describing the approximate value of the mansion and the land it sits on: h_ttp://www.city-data.com/austin-properties/C/Crystal-Creek-Drive-4.html
Now, with a straight face, can the Wakefieldites tell us that the child was murdered because the mother and the caretaker were both out of options when it came to the child's care even when Andrew Wakefield and his "Autism Media Channel," which has that multi-hundred-thousand-dollar property listed as their address, came to their aid? Why, that must be the biggest epic failure by Wakefield et al, even worse than his case series (not a study), which found no association between autism and the MMR vaccine.
I would love to know if Wakefield, who is not a licensed healthcare provider neither here nor in the UK, gave Alex a diagnosis or advised his family of how to medically proceed. If anyone has evidence of this, you know where to find me.
@jen I'm curious as to who exactly you think I am? Really.
1) "Teh" is a memetic word used by many a blogger, tweeter, etc to make a point of a baseless argument, ignorance, or just be silly.
2) "crank" is also commonly used in blogs such as these to describe the practitioners of "woo."
3) my comparison was to point out that in both cases, the Autustic child was not given the basic human dignity he deserved. Only in the case of Spourdalakis, it went much farther, because she actually killed him. And as we have all stated, until the medical records come to light, we only have one side of "proper care" which if it's anything like what these groups champion, is hardly proper and hardly care.
@narad, alas, you're right. She did admit to the murder, she may plead guilty. It makes me sick, however, thinking this child may not receive the justice a trial could give him.
@ Lawrence, Dorothy Spourdalakis' attorney has announced he is going for an insanity defence. I don't know about the other murderer or even if they have the same attorney.
You sound (as usual and always wrong) pretty cocksure about what treatment Alex received or didn't during his hospital stay. Do you have something to share? Were you there? Oh right then you should probably quit the brain droppings. Just because actual physicians didn't cave to a bunch of whinging biomeddlers doesn't mean Alex didn't receive proper medical care. In fact, I'd be surprised if his care wasn't exemplary.
jen used to resort to sockies (Dr. Dent and Sick Sauce), for months, until Orac warned her about the use of sock puppets. How's that compare with the moderation policy at AoA, Jen?
According to her own posts, she's a teaching aide in a special needs classroom, in Canada. She also stated she does not have a special needs child, but brags on her posts that she tells the parents of her students about the vaccines-autism connection.
Go back to AoA now Jen, tell Dan, Kim, Stone and the other cranks, every science blogger has now taken up the sad life and the brutal murder of Alex...and the culpability of all the bio-meddlers.
Don't sweat it AOP; jen sees bogeymen and conspiracies everywhere.
I am wondering if what just crossed my mind might have occurred to anyone else. I'd love to hear Narad's legal opinion (and anyone else's, too) on this:
Is it possible Alex's mom and caretaker faked their suicide attempts in order to generate sympathy, pity, or lead to leniency in court? After all, it seems this was premeditated a week prior to the murder, so they may have built themselves an escape hatch.
I don't know what kind of pills thy used to try to kill themselves, but it is very difficult to commit suicide with anything over-the-counter or even many prescriptions. Unless they had something like OxyContins or Percocets, you really need to swallow entire large bottles of pills to die.
There are actually self-help books available for terminal patients explaining the hows and whys of suicide and you have to tak several steps to ensure the pills kill. Most people just vomit up the pills before they become lethal.
Is it possible the two muderers merely took a small handful of those pills to make it seem like they were trying to kill themselves? I imagine a jury would be more sympathetic to someone who had tried to kill herself in the wake of a murder and might lead to a nice stay in a psych. hospital rather than prison?
Am I too cynical or have been reading too many conspiracy theory websites?
Two blog posts I wrote about this (two of many; these are about the CBS-"Autism Channel" fiasco. The others are about Alex Spourdalakis being murdered. Currently a "PR Wire" press release claims that CBS is collaborating in the production of this "documentary," with the headline "Who Killed Alex Spourdalakis?." as though the perpetrators of murder itself are not know. I don't know if CBS has gone so far as to actively collaborate, but the station has aided and abetted this slew of misinformation. http://paulacdurbinwestbyautisticblog.blogspot.com/2013/08/cbs-provides…
http://paulacdurbinwestbyautisticblog.blogspot.com/2013/09/cbs-touts-fi…
@Woo Fighter - Speculation is something I detest, but you bring up some valid points. It will all be brought to light (as Daschelbot writes, "illumined") soon enough.
There's nothing new under the sun.
@ Woo Fighter:
No, you are not alone in thinking along these lines.
I believe that somewhere it was mentioned that prescription drugs were involved- possibly Alex's.
They probably didn't give him a large enough dose in order to save some for themselves- thus the need for the knife.
It's possible that any of a variety of meds might have been given to Alex for his condition:
I would imagine that if she had had a week to plan her awful deed, she might have at least looked up lethal doses or dangerous levels of meds she had in her possession.
But then, not all people are thorough.
She did however create a reasonable facsimile of a double suicide attempt.
@Woo Fighter,
To expand on the point, I think I read before that the caregiver had medical knowledge and may have had a medical degree. It's not clear enough on my mind exactly where I read this but I think it was on RI and surely, anyone (even myself) with some medical knowledge may know how to fake a suicide attempt.
Alain
The now lapsed* autismnurse.com domain was registered 2012 August 21 with the Texas address but an Illinois landline as contact number.
* There's little reason to think it ever hosted a site in the first place.
Alain, jogs my memory: wasn't Agata a doctor in Europe IIRC?
From what I remember from a suicide "cookbook" I read recently (don't ask why) one has to supress one's central nervous system before ingesting any pills. Hence alcohol. And they can't be swallowed whole. They take too long dissolve and release their active agents.
The book stressed that an intentional pill overdose alone is not an effective way to die. And yes, when I say "cookbook" the book had many "recipes" for lethal cocktails, pill combinations, methodology, etc. It was quite morbid but fascinating at the same time.
I imagine, at 225 pounds, Alex would have required an enormous amount of any kind of pills to work. As his murdering mother discovered.
@ Denice,
Big fat maybe indeed.
Alain
@ Woo fighter,
We can't find suicide "cookbook" on amazon do we? I'd like to read one for curiosity :)
Alain
Denice @121 et al: The Chicago Sun Times reported in June the godmother had gone to medical school in Poland: http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/20696224-418/prosecutors-mother-and-…
OK, are the constant error messages due to the AoA invasion or just the full moon phenomenon that internet and cable problems seem to happen when no one is on the clock to fix them? (Non US readers: see my previous location.)
I think we are all having some difficulties posting here...and also on SBM.
Jen left? Without saying good-bye to me?
About the prosecution of the two murderers; IANAL, but as far as I know, if the case goes to trial, each defendant will have their own lawyer. Probably, with these two murderers, they will be public defenders.
The both of them would have to plead "guilty" in order to not stand trial. Dorothy's lawyer stated on the videotape he will be trying for an insanity plea for her...which, IMO, ain't gonna happen.
Denise Walter, early reports after Alex's death claim she was a doctor in the old Soviet Union...but how reliable is that information? Reports also stated Agata is in the United States illegally and that Dorothy and Agata first met at a family funeral (not a joke!), became fast friends quickly, just a few short years ago
@AOP:
Given that they were booked June 12,* they've presumably already pled** not guilty. I suppose the difference between that and a plea agreement is a niggling one; I was just thinking that the State had every interest in disposing of this one without a complicated trial.
@SM:
For a defense of not guilty by reason of insanity to succeed (and leaving aside the folie à deux angle; n.b. the burden shifts to the defendant), one must demonstrate lack of "a substantial capacity to appreciate the criminality of [the] conduct," which is pretty clearly there, IMNSHO. I haven't heard mention of any existing psychiatric history, either. Perhaps they'd be steering toward a guilty but mentally ill verdict. Yet....
@The former MSIS:
Succeeding in a GBMI defense in Illinois is as likely as not to just land your ass in with the general population anyway. I doubt that Dixon (which is maximum security) is any great shakes, either.
* That location should be Division 8, the hospital ward, although the visiting hours aren't the canonical ones.
** Bite me, Garner.
I'm afraid that I can only conclude that these well-meaning sorts simply aren't thinking out of the box keeping themselves even cursorily apprised of the the toxicological literature.
As for Dorothy and Skrodzka, I'm going with simple incompetence for the time being.
@narad, again, thank you for your points; in reading the history of this case, I missed any mention of a date, if there was any mentioned in any of the posts about this thus far. And for explaining the intricacies of the insanity plea. Also, agreed on incompetence.
@ScienceMom, no sweating whatsoever. But I really am curious! Quite frankly, I'm rather proud of myself for getting who @liliady pointed out as a frequent player all riled up on my first venture out. I also have some doubts that she *really* discusses the "link" with parents.
Two blog posts. Including link to TPGA's petition.
http://paulacdurbinwestbyautisticblog.blogspot.com/2013/09/cbs-touts-fi…
http://paulacdurbinwestbyautisticblog.blogspot.com/2013/08/cbs-provides…
WooFighter @115: "Is it possible Alex’s mom and caretaker faked their suicide attempts in order to generate sympathy, pity, or lead to leniency in court? After all, it seems this was premeditated a week prior to the murder, so they may have built themselves an escape hatch."
Quite possible, in my opinion; it's easy enough to google the lethal dose of any medication. Although they (apparently) failed to give Alex a lethal dose, they may have just miscalculated that part.
Didn't somebody here mention that Alex's uncle and father had been so worried about him that they went to the Spourdalakis apartment and busted down the door when they couldn't get an answer? Why were they worried and what made them go to the apartment that day? Was it his mother's plan all along to get somebody to come along and find the two of them - but not Alex of course - "just in time"?
I really hope all this comes out at the trial.
I sent a link for this article to a guy at "Mediaite" who has done stories on how the press treats autistic people, and he was horrified by this stuff. He says he has a piece on Attkisson's shenanigans in the pipeline.
@Woo Fighter - Nah, me too. So, I related the story to the less cynical Other Mrs elburto who said "Bollocks. It's a sympathy ploy".
Now can anyone tell me where Jen went and why, after wading in here and slagging me off apropos of nothing, she couldn't bring herself to reply to my comments?
Why, it's almost like she can't back up her initial statements, and can't defend her actions, the ones reflected back at her in the answers I gave to her questions about what constitutes abuse.
Looks like AOP was the favourite today! Stick around AOP, the more you deal with these warped individuals, the better your brain becomes at resisting !!the urge to throw your computer out of the window!
They'll never answer questions about hypothetical killings of kids with Down's Syndrome or schizophrenia, because their answers would only reveal the truth. The sad fact is that their whole vile movement is built on a foundation of ableism, their whole ethos has a stinking core of "Better dead than disabled".
Unfortunately they're not alone in that belief. Society would shriek and howl in outrage if a mother killed a neurotypical, healthy, able-bodied child. When non-NT, or sick and disabled children are murdered society looks the other way, excuses are made, people whisper "It was for the best" and "That poor [parent] had suffered so much".
Most cases are never reported in the national news of any country, and the perpetrators are rarely prosecuted. A blog I used read tried to keep a monthly roll of disabled/ill/non-NT people murdered by their caregivers. The blogger had to stop doing it because it was lacking up virtually all of their free time. The numbers were staggeringly high and impossible to keep up with, and constantly reading about people in similar situations to themself, being tortured and killed for the "crime" of being disabled, had a terrible impact on the blogger's mental health.
It makes me sick to think that if I were murdered by my wife, society would protect her and come to her defence.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cbs-news-must-retract-report-excusing-mother…
first 2 paras
Lilady, I don't brag that "I tell parents of my students about the vaccine autism connection," for the record. In fact one parent mentioned it and it was initiated by the parent. Parents of friends certainly do talk about the issue, though not often. My grandmother had a documented , serious adverse event (Guillaume Barre) to her flu shot and that is how I came to wonder about the issue of vaccine safety, albeit I have vaccinated my children -carefully. Bye now.
Elberito: I'm pretty sure you show signs of Narcissistic Personality Disorder with some measure of Histrionic PD as well. I wouldn't want to contribute to that and waste my time typing and hurting my neck.
jen...answer Elburto's questions about what you claim to have seen her post on Respectful Insolence...liar.
Do you deny that you and your pals at AoA have libeled and slimed me, repeatedly.
Do you deny that Jake has cyber-stalked and personally stalked respected doctors, science bloggers, researchers, scientists, journalists and government officials?
Do you deny that Jake Crosby wrote vile libelous emails to the employers of science bloggers, to have them lose their jobs?
Do you deny that Jake Crosby engages in six, sixty, six hundred degrees of separation to post his libelous slime at AoA...which you and your groupies lap up?
Do you deny that you and your groupies have slimed and libeled me by calling me a *Big Pharma Shill* who is being paid to post comments?
I comment about Jake's atrocious cyber-stalking and personal stalking behaviors, directed at individuals who work tirelessly to counter the crap pseudoscience that appears on AoA and individuals who care about childrens' health.
BTW Jen, I have NEVER speculated about Jake Crosby's dating habits.
P.S. A decent person, who posted remarks at a poster here, which were untrue would apologize to that person.
@Jen,
You are not a psychiatrist and a psychiatrist wouldn't diagnose people over the internet or even the phone so you have no basis to label Elburto with narcissistic personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder.
Furthermore, I have not witnessed any comments of Elburto which would support any personality disorder so the onus is on you to prove me and anyone else here that Elburto have a personality disorder. Put up such evidence or else, post apologies to Elburto for implying she has a personality disorder.
Alain
One of the things that really rankles me about the case is that in that video, they include the segment where Wakefield says, point-blank, that the kid was going to go into an inpatient psychiatric care system in 72 hours. Like hell the mother had nowhere to turn -- she just couldn't stomach the thought of someone else having control of her son. Like it'd be an admission that she was an inadequate mother or something. As if the murder wasn't admission enough. She'd rather kill him than let anyone else care for him. The idea of a mercy killing is eliminated by the knowledge that she did the same thing to a perfectly healthy cat.
This was no mercy killing. This was "if I can't have him, you can't have him either".
@ Elburto Why thank you! Like I said, I've been a long-time reader, why not join in the (logical) fun?
@ jen while I am sorry about your grandmother's "Guillain"-Barre, I'd like to point out that it's not so much a reaction to a vaccine, as it is an autoimmune reaction that is thought to be triggered by any number of things that cause a mistake in targeting, up to and including actual infection. I like 1 in a million odds of (maybe) having that reaction to a flu vaccine compared to the estimated chance of actual death from flu or flu-related complication. I think the last number was approximately 1 in 10,000. I could be wrong, but it's less than developing Guillain-Barre. And I'm a gambling type of girl.
But that aside, the science has shown no links between autism and vaccines. Because the original study was a lie. If you were truly interested in the facts behind very real--albeit very rare--reactions to vaccines, perhaps you should stay away from AoA.
Now can anyone tell me where Jen went and why, after wading in here and slagging me off apropos of nothing, she couldn’t bring herself to reply to my comments?
I sometimes wonder whether Jen's comments are really an exercise in performance art. Surely no-one could really be that lacking in insight, so transparent about displaying the same shortcomings (e.g. anonymity) in the very comment where she condemns it in other people.
Given Jen's record of misrepresenting others, I don't think there's any real reason to believe her claims that someone brought up Munchausen-Syndrome-by-Proxy in relation to the Spourdalakis case, much less that it's "[a] diagnosis many of [us] seem to be pushing for in cases such as Alex's".
However, since Jen has brought MBsP up, and pushed a distorted version of what the status of that diagnosis is, it might be good to set the record straight.
Roy Meadow was, indeed, one of the foremost proponents of the diagnosis called "Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy". He was not the person who invented the term, as many sources incorrectly claim, but he certainly believed in it and diagnosed it an awful lot. He was in fact struck off the medical register for offering false testimony in court in the murder trial of Sally Clark, claiming that the odds of an explanation other than MSbP for the deaths of her children was 1 in 73,000,000 (a calculation which is completely wrong, as it is based on the false premise that the chances of one child in a family having a medical problem are completely independent of the chances of any other child in the family having a similar problem.)
Some people would tell you that when Roy Meadow was struck off the medical register, it meant that MSbP had been debunked as a diagnosis. Before getting into the illogic of that claim, let's observe the following: Before Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy was posited to explain why people were doing what they did to their children, Munchausen Syndrome had previously been posited to try and explain the otherwise inexplicable things people were doing to themselves. Do mentally and emotionally healthy people inject themselves with gasoline and feces, do they put their lives in serious jeopardy and bankrupt themselves with medical bills, when they have nothing to gain from doing so except attention from medical practitioners?
Those who want to try and deny Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy must either try to deny Munchausen Syndrome as well, which is nearly impossible given the evidence that has been collected showing that these patients were in fact deliberately self-inflicting their "mysterious ailments" - or else they must try to argue that there are people who will put their own health on the line to get attention, but none who would do it to their children. Neither of these is realistic.
The fact is that it was never logical to claim Roy Meadow's fall debunked MSbP in the first place. The old saying is "when you have a hammer in your hand; everything looks like a nail"; to conclude from that nails don't exist would be asinine. It would be just as logical, or illogical, to conclude that vaccine injuries are not rare but nonexistent because there are people who see them everywhere.
So does MSbP have something to do with the Spourdalakis case, after all? In a sense, both yes and no. Despite how often abusive practices of "curebie" parents are compared to MSbP, there's a crucial difference between the two sets of parents: despite what they may say about wanting a cure, MSbP parents actually do not want their children cured. For them, the prospect of their child actually becoming healthy and normal is undesirable - because it means the role of "warrior mommy" can stop, and they won't reap the benefits of that role: having people shower them with attention and admiration and sympathy.
But the actions of Dorothy Spourdalakis are in a key respect just like those of an MSbP parent: it was all about them. For all that Dorothy talked about wanting what was best for Alex, it was really about making sure no one else succeeded where she failed. Even if they were to succeed simply at loving him for who he was, she couldn't tolerate the idea that it wouldn't be her. Everything else, including the life of her child, had to come second to her being seen in the light she wished.
I hate to say this, but it's really the cat that shows the true nature of Dorothy and her partner in crime. They killed the cat, and specifically explained that it was because they couldn't stand the thought of it going to a shelter. One could argue that, in regards to Alex, they couldn't think straight, couldn't see any possible way that they or anyone else could truly give the care he neeeded. But they must have known that the cat at least had a chance if it went to a shelter. It might have found a loving, happy home. They made sure it didn't. That shows their true nature; just as a MSbP parent poisons their toddler so that people will look at them and say "poor suffering mother! bearing up so well under such a burden!" they killed Alex and the cat so that people would say "poor suffering mother! suffering so much she was pushed to the unthinkable!" instead of "well, thank God Alex is in the hands of someone who's not poisoning him with quackery."
@AOP - when the whole Swine Flu - GB scare happened, later research showed that the incidence rate was barely above baseline....it was a faux-scare, nothing more.
I come to this blog to try and repair the damage my children have done to my brain, and to escape the stupidity of my friends on facebook. I come here to remind myself that there are smart people in the world, trying to save people from harm and loss. I am now a little upset that my safe haven has been taken over (I don't get to read all of the comments all of the time). Vaccinations are the ONE thing I can do to protect my children. I wish I could vaccinate against them having to come in contact with stupid people but I can't. Vaccinate against violence. Car accidents. Trees falling.
So, I stand with you all, not quite as intelligent, but just as deeply vested in the future of our country. I want to thank you for standing for what is right, and going through all this unnecessary bullying. I wish I could understand the AV movement, I really do. What is their end game? Live like it was 1880? Why not want better and better things and lives for the children of this country?
Oh, and my main point, if I was going to kill my child and myself, you would be DANG sure I would be dead. There would be no slip up. I would not walk this earth without my children. Funny though, isn't it, that poor Alex gets STABBED and she gets too take a few pills to fall asleep forever. No sympathy from this mother to that one.
Oh and now, if 'jen' and any other psycho AV'ers would like to pounce on me, I don't love my children, I am an evil momma, bring it. My aunt contracted rubella when she was pregnant with my cousin, and my sweet cousin lived two years in silence and dark, in pain. This was before vaccines. PREVENTABLE.
@ Lawrence hence my "(maybe)"! But good to know. I haven't read that research yet--going now--although I can't imagine that number is much above baseline anyway. Unfortunately it's still the rate our Employee Health clinic spouts off.
I do stand by my statement to jen that even if a flu vaccine resulted in a 1 in million chance of GBS, I'd take those odds over influenza.
@Susan:
1) That would turn them into martyrs, so it would be a bad idea on the part of the scientists/bloggers/etc.
2) The plaintiffs would have to prove damages to win a defamation case. For instance, prove that they couldn't sell their articles to some journals/magazines/newspapers because of the defamatory statements. That would be difficult to do.
3) For when the plaintiffs count as public figures in the context of autism and/or vaccination, they'd have to prove "actual malice" on the part of the defendant. That is, that the defendant knew what they said wasn't true, suspected what they said wasn't true, or didn't care if it was true or not. Since the defendants do believe what they're saying, the plaintiffs wouldn't be able to win.
Roy Meadow was, indeed, one of the foremost proponents of the diagnosis called “Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy”. He was not the person who invented the term, as many sources incorrectly claim
That was the sainted John Money, IIRC.
It was actually a comment from Elburto last year that introduced me to the existence of the charming Roy Meadow. That made jennsplaining comment #48, informing Elburto about him, all the more amusing.
The DSM includes a category for "Factitious Disorder by Proxy", which is not dispositive as to its reality, but belies the description of MSBP as a "conteoversial theory".
AdamG: Women who make fools of themselves in public earn my wrath because they are letting the side down. A man can make himself look as dumb as he wants to and it only reflects on him. A woman who does the same is grinding all other women down in the dirt.
Jen: Elburto gets to be mad, so don't go flinging the 'hysteria' diagnosis around. Also, read some history. If you thought Munchhausen's by Proxy was misogynist..well, 'hysteria' is ten times worse. Heck, you and your cackling flock of seagulls stink of hypocrisy when you talk about this case- we all know you'd do the same as Mrs. Spourdalakis did if you thought you could get away with it. (I'd say vultures, but I actually kind of like them.)
And you've never answered my question-why do you work with autistic kids if you think they're so damaged? How do the parents not notice the contempt you radiate from every pore when it comes to their children?
That's going way too far. I won't be a liar and say that I think highly of Jen but I have never seen her write anything that a reasonable person would take as evidence that she would commit murder, much less the murder of someone she was supposed to be caretaking. That sort of ass-pulled slander is indefensible, PGP, and you should retract it and apologize right away.
Um what? Talk about a double-standard, when men speak they only speak for themselves but when women speak they speak for all? Does that really sound rational to you?
And speaking of speaking for others, please speak for yourself. "We" do not think any such thing. Why would you stoop to their level of rhetoric?
To be fair, I *do* feel extra embarrassed when reporters act badly, or when grads from my alma mater act badly, or when Minnesotans act badly, as those are all groups I belong to, too.
That may be all PGP means here.
Women is such a broad category that I don't take it quite so personally, but other people's feelings may differ.
The fact is that it was never logical to claim Roy Meadow’s fall debunked MSbP in the first place.
On the flip side of Roy Meadow -- with his witch-hunter determination to see 'murder' where other experts saw a possibility of familial SIDS -- there was Alfred Steinschneider. Dr Steinschneider was so convinced that a mother could not kill her first three infants that he came up with a theory of "SIDS = galloping apnea", and sent the next two infants home to die in their turn.
Big Monitor saw a business opportunity and so the whole breathing-monitor industry came about.
Holy hell, Dachel and Stone don't miss a beat and swoop in like the vultures they are on a general information piece in the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/anybody-worrying-…
I tried my first foray in desensitization as was suggested, and clicked a link. Now I need a shower.
AOP -- it's like that old comic song, "The Streak." I want to shout at people "Don't look, Ethel!" but it's too late.
"Lilady...
September 2, 2013
I just *knew* you would be covering this “CBS This Morning” Attkisson segment Orac.
Weeks ago, I found a local anti-vaccine radio show, where Wakefield was interviewed and where he stated his Autism Media Channel had an 18 minute documentary about Alex’s life and death, that he was trying to sell to a network TV show.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/thecandystore/2013/07/14/our-special-guest…
“Our Special Guest: Dr. Andrew Wakefield (Part 2). Dr. Wakefield discusses his new documentary on the Autism Media Channel titled “Who Killed Alex Spourdalakis”. The Autism Media Channel presents a prelude to murder – an unprecedented documentary insight into the events that precipitated the tragic death of a Chicago child with autism – a child killed by his mother and Godmother, themselves broken by the indifference and prejudice of the medical system. Alex’s tragedy is a story of our time, capturing the iniquity of autism as perceived as a psychiatric oddity rather than a medical disease. Also, we discuss many other topics. Tune in!!”
At that time, I didn’t think he would be successful…forgetting that Ms. Attkisson has always carried the water for the anti-vaccine crowd..and forgetting that Ms Attkisson loves to have all her vaccine “stories” prepackaged for her and tied up with pretty pink ribbons, by every disreputable character, including the charming (smarmy) Andrew Wakefield.
What a disgrace she is to journalists everywhere and in particular her colleagues at CBS news TV."
The only disgrace are your vicious accusations against Ms. Attkisson and Ms. Rubolino. Personally, I think you are in need of a massive colon cleanse to detoxify the absolute hatred you have for anything resembling the truth, but in case your insurance doesn't cover that procedure...a good strong dose of Barlean's fish oil swirls will clean your ass out very quickly and leave it and your breath smelling clean, no more bloating or diarrhea from the mouth. How does that sound...good, okay? Let me know how it goes. Oh and one more thing...quit the tough girl act...I know tough and you certainly don't cut it. Got it?
pgp: Please just stop it. I'm not jen's pal, but she has never given any indication on this blog or any other blog she posts on, that she is capable of, or condones, harming any child.
I cannot recall, when a news story has affected me so profoundly. I am astonished how Orac and the other science bloggers gave up their Labor Day holiday weekend to post their excellent blogs. Thanks Orac.
-lilady
lilady
September 2, 2013
jen used to resort to sockies (Dr. Dent and Sick Sauce), for months, until Orac warned her about the use of sock puppets. How’s that compare with the moderation policy at AoA, Jen?
According to her own posts, she’s a teaching aide in a special needs classroom, in Canada. She also stated she does not have a special needs child, but brags on her posts that she tells the parents of her students about the vaccines-autism connection.
Go back to AoA now Jen, tell Dan, Kim, Stone and the other cranks, every science blogger has now taken up the sad life and the brutal murder of Alex…and the culpability of all the bio-meddlers.
Hmmm...you just accused a bunch of innocent people of killing Alex. It's on record. So when they are done going after you, don't act shocked. Let this copy of your comments remind you of exactly why you may be charged with slander and liable, possibly losing your livelihood.
This evening, I was perusing all my medical files that I have in my possession and I found a nugget of gold that I want to speak about but am not sure if I should do it here (it's mostly ICD-8 code from 1982-1984) because this blog isn't about me (it's about Alex Spourdalakis) and should remain that way.
I'll Find an open thread to speak about it.
Alain
lilady
September 2, 2013
@ Lawrence: Orac, Liz Ditz and Todd W. at Harpocrates Speaks have my email address…tell ‘em lilady sent you.
Rene F. Najera: Was Andy successful in his attempt to sell the 18 minute documentary to a major TV network? Is that the reason why his $ 1,450,000 home which was listed for sale, went off the market 3 weeks ago?
Here we have Andy Wakefield’s article (P 17) in the Autism File e-mag. Scroll down to see Andy’s credentials, especially “founder of the Autism Media Channel”…in spite of the fact he and Polly tried to scrub his name off the site. Look at the hypothetical dialogue (script?), that Wakefield wrote, about Alex’s behavior in the hospital emergency room and the pipe dreams he has that everything about the vaccine-autism connection will be settled in a Texas courtroom. BTW, nurse Rubolino is mentioned in that article.
http://www.pageturnpro.com/Publications/201308/3263/52865/pdf/130223553…
Lilady, so now you are stalking Dr. Wakefield? Is it because you don't matter to him? Or maybe it's because you are jealous of his beautiful life? Perhaps, you despise healthy children and happy parents? Now you are stalking and that is dangerous, even punishable. You know where he lives, that his house was up for sale and that he took it off the market. Hmmm? You may have even paid for that info. Stalker...sounds like a major case of fatal attraction and I think Dr. and Mrs. Wakefield need to be warned about you and your possible dangerous intentions. Ya think? I think so. Ms. Rubolino, so there you have it...let Dr. Wakefield know that Lilady knows way too much about their lifestyle and personal business so they can have the authorities investigate who Lilady really is because we need to prevent another tragedy from happening. Too many unhinged people taking matters into their own hands.
Holographic,
Perhaps a little reading comprehension is in order, that nugget:
and the culpability of all the bio-meddlers.
Refer to whom exactly?
and that nugget:
Go back to AoA now Jen, tell Dan, Kim, Stone and the other cranks, every science blogger has now taken up the sad life and the brutal murder of Alex
warn Dan, Kim, Stone and the other crank (indeed) of what exactly....yes...you read that right (I hope so...), it tells them that every science blogger blog about the tragic murder of Alex Spourdalakis.
is that accusing a bunch of killing Alex Spourdalakis? Please do tell me.
Now, do you enjoy being schooled by a Canadian French autistic who's better at reading comprehension than yourself?
:)
Alain
I come at this from another perspective. I am the father of a 16-year old beautiful daughter whose smile lights up the world. She is also autistic, and is profoundly developmentally delayed. She is non-verbal and her other methods of communication are very, very limited. She is not toilet-trained, bytes one of her hands severely several times a day. Her intellectual capability is quite limited.
I don't think vaccines, Big Pharma, nor the mainstream medical
community, nor toxins are responsible for her condition, and I don't think the biomedical has any answers for her condition.
She at one time spoke, though never said Mommy and Daddy,
but knew the names of nearly eveything at home and in the yard
and was very good at categorizing. One she had an example of what a flower was, she recognized flowers which were quite different.
She lost all that. I don't blame vaccines, the mainstream medical community, toxins or anything else, but autism manifesting itself at its worst. Do I think she was stolen, no, but
the change was definitely detrimental to her.
When I read about the murder, and there is no doubt in my mind that is was murder committed by the mother and caregiver. I wonder what malformed their conscience. If everything is as said, this murder was planned. They even had a chance to reconsider. but when the pills didn't work as planned they used a knife in a very brutal way.
I doubt they are threats to the community, but the same thing could be said of many if not most of those who commit such a heinous act. What I don't want to see come out of the trial is a lesser sentence because of Alex's condition. It would be saying that his life was not worth that of someone without it.
I'd sure like to know why this happened. I don't think the answers are clear at all.
Mr. MacGregor,
Can your daughter communicate using an assistive device? She did learn a language so perhaps it is not lost and she could communicate using a computer, tablet or something similar.
Alain
Hmmm…you just accused a bunch of innocent people of killing Alex. It’s on record. So when they are done going after you, don’t act shocked. Let this copy of your comments remind you of exactly why you may be charged with slander and liable, possibly losing your livelihood.
Reading comprehension fail, spelling fail, legal knowledge fail, formatting fail...
Geez, Lilady, how can you not be shaking in your boots, the way Holograph is taking you to the woodshed?
lilady
September 3, 2013
jen…answer Elburto’s questions about what you claim to have seen her post on Respectful Insolence…liar.
Do you deny that you and your pals at AoA have libeled and slimed me, repeatedly.
Do you deny that Jake has cyber-stalked and personally stalked respected doctors, science bloggers, researchers, scientists, journalists and government officials?
Do you deny that Jake Crosby wrote vile libelous emails to the employers of science bloggers, to have them lose their jobs?
Do you deny that Jake Crosby engages in six, sixty, six hundred degrees of separation to post his libelous slime at AoA…which you and your groupies lap up?
Do you deny that you and your groupies have slimed and libeled me by calling me a *Big Pharma Shill* who is being paid to post comments?
I comment about Jake’s atrocious cyber-stalking and personal stalking behaviors, directed at individuals who work tirelessly to counter the crap pseudoscience that appears on AoA and individuals who care about childrens’ health.
BTW Jen, I have NEVER speculated about Jake Crosby’s dating habits.
P.S. A decent person, who posted remarks at a poster here, which were untrue would apologize to that person.
Hey Lilady...do you ever read what you post before clicking the "submit comment" button? YOU who stalks Dr. Wakefield's residence and information have the gonads to speak about Jacob Crosby and portray him as a stalker? Then, you belittle an Autistic person (Crosby) by cavalierly mentioning that you haven't commented on his dating habits...whoa, so wait a minute...this isn't about Alex for you. This is about the fact that these two men don't acknowledge you. This is about you discrediting them by attacking Ms. Rubolino, Ms. Attkisson and all the other bio med moms and dads because you are terribly emotionally wounded by two very accomplished and attractive men not paying any attention to you. Okay, got it...are you aware that you depict yourself as not only a dangerous stalker, but as someone who presents with the emotional development of a 10 year old? Just felt I should let you in on that truth. Grow up...there will be other guys for you........in munchkinland.
@ Shay,
Guess our resident nameless sexless holographic was just a drive by coward and a bully with a picked up moniker:
Votre recherche de Holographic site:ageofautism.com ne correspond à aucun document.
Alain
Lilady: I was a little harsh. Maybe. But the way Jen *pretends* to care, pretends to help, sticks in my craw. I actually think open hatred like Greg's would be easier to deal with. Every time Jen posts I feel like I'm drowning in saccharine slime. She hasn't openly condoned Alex's murder, that's true, but the way she just shrugs it off annoys me.
I guess wrong; our drive-by bully will spend all night posting drivel about lilady.
lilady, you can sleep well tonight; I will just amuse myself randomly between reading the bully's drivel and actually enjoying myself viewing porn video :D (what else can we do at night...joke).
Alain
PGP:
Don't worry about Dreg, we have another crank with a picked up moniker to have fun with tonight.
Alain
Scared Momma..."Vaccinations are the ONE thing I can do to protect my children." Really? Did you breastfeed? Because I have read in many places that BREASTFEEDING YOUR BABIES is the one thing GOOD MOTHERS (Not lazy) can do to protect their children. I have even come across this information in studies. It seems that it's more effective than the toxins you are willing to pay to poison your children rather than breastfeeding them and preventing them from respiratory disease. You mean you forgot the research on maternal breastfeeding helping to reduce asthma and allergies in infants and children long term? Or were you just too lazy to bother to care?
@holographic
So, post your studies then, or we can assume that you are lying.
@ Ian MacGregor: Thanks for sharing your story about your little girl. My beloved son was born in 1976 with a rare genetic disorder which caused profound and multiple intellectual, physical and health impairments, along with a grand mal seizure disorder and immune suppression, megaloblastic anemia with poikilocytosis, anisocytosis, ITP, platelet aggregation and adhesion disorders, which caused several internal bleeding episodes. He was hospitalized multiple times for seizure control/status epilepticus, Todd's paralysis, meningitis, pneumonia and for iv re-hydration. I was his sole caregiver at home and during those many extended hospitalizations.
He had autistic-like behaviors, not autism, along with self stimming and self-injurious behaviors. I learned how to implement a behavior modification program (a forerunner of ABA) with him and he benefited greatly by the intense (4 hours/daily for two years) program.
He was a delightful child who died peacefully in his sleep at age 28, nine years ago. I miss him so much; his giggles and his mischievous smiles. He was loved by everyone who ever knew him and he touched the lives of hundreds of people, who only knew him through my advocacy activities. He lives on in the lives of the people whose broken hearts were mended and whose vision was restored because of his cardiac valves and corneas, which were donated after his death.
To me, it is unfathomable that a parent and a caregiver would brutally Alex. I want the murderers to stand trial and I want all the meddlers to be subpoenaed to testify in court, so that other parents do not subject their autistic children to biomedical "treatments" which are painful, invasive, dangerous and not-medically-indicated.
Shay..."Reading comprehension fail, spelling fail, legal knowledge fail, formatting fail…Geez, Lilady, how can you not be shaking in your boots, the way Holograph is taking you to the woodshed?"
Types of stalkers
"Psychologists often group individuals who stalk into two categories: psychotic and nonpsychotic. Stalkers may have pre-existing psychotic disorders such as delusional disorder, schizoaffective disorder, or schizophrenia. Most stalkers are nonpsychotic and may exhibit disorders or neuroses such as major depression, adjustment disorder, or substance dependence, as well as a variety of Axis II personality disorders (such as antisocial, borderline, dependent, narcissistic, or paranoid). Some of the symptoms of "obsessing" over a person may be characteristic of obsessive compulsive personality disorder. The nonpsychotic stalkers' pursuit of victims can be influenced by various psychological factors, including anger, hostility, projection of blame, obsession, dependency, minimization, denial, and jealousy. Conversely, as is more commonly the case, the stalker has no antipathic feelings towards the victim, but simply a longing that cannot be fulfilled due to deficiencies either in their personality or their society's norms.
In "A Study of Stalkers" Mullen et al.. (2000) identified five types of stalkers:
Rejected stalkers pursue their victims in order to reverse, correct, or avenge a rejection (e.g. divorce, separation, termination).
Resentful stalkers pursue a vendetta because of a sense of grievance against the victims – motivated mainly by the desire to frighten and distress the victim.
Intimacy seekers seek to establish an intimate, loving relationship with their victim. To many of them the victim is a long-sought-after soul mate, and they were 'meant' to be together.
Incompetent suitors, despite poor social or courting skills, have a fixation, or in some cases, a sense of entitlement to an intimate relationship with those who have attracted their amorous interest. Their victims are most often already in a dating relationship with someone else.
Predatory stalkers spy on the victim in order to prepare and plan an attack – often sexual – on the victim. " This last one, Bingo! Lilady spied on Wakefield. She knows his address. It's very open ended and yet it's very clear. She is a stalker.
novalox,
the only thing we can assume about you is that you have no children, because ob/gyn's tell this to their patients. You lazy sack of gonads...do you own research. Start at La Leche League see what you find. You like Lox on your bagel with cream cheese...gross! You really eat that crap?
#170 There are good medical contraindications for breastfeeding in certain cases, such as when a mother has an infectious illness.
Do not assume it is laziness.
Do not assume all women are capable of producing enough milk to keep an infant from starving, either. Not all of us are.
Don't be what Tina Fey referred to as a "Teat Nazi." Yeah, she went too far with the Nazi comparison, but making a woman feel guilty for not being physically able to produce enough breastmilk, or for being deathly ill while giving birth? Not cool.
@Holographic:
Um, Wakefield's address is in the public domain. Your insinuation that she's a stalker is laughable.
@holographic
Hmmm... so I guess you don't have any studies to present to us and that you are lying?
Also, thanks for the laughs at your weak excuse for an insults. Please do try harder, I do need some more laughs.
Lilady, "To me, it is unfathomable that a parent and a caregiver would brutally Alex. I want the murderers to stand trial and I want all the meddlers to be subpoenaed to testify in court, so that other parents do not subject their autistic children to biomedical “treatments” which are painful, invasive, dangerous and not-medically-indicated." You are really an ignoramus. So you are basically saying to let children l;anguish in pain or die because YOU cannot fathom them wanting healthy children. So, you get a kick out of knowing Autistic kids suffer with G.I. pain? Since you like it so much allow me to suggest that you eat a gigantic bowl of GMO, pesticide laden food every single day and tell your doctors to inject you with 49 doses of vaccines, but all at once...let's see how well you fare. ;)
Holo – you don't mind if I call you that, do you? We're all friends here – it looks like you found your quote marks! Good on you, I was worried for a moment!
You've shown the world you're willing to improve a little, and that's great! Now let's get our pronouns in order, shall we? Keep it up, really get through that grammar and writing 101 course.
Show the world you're not one lazy mother!
Julian Frost,
Whether it's in the domain isn't the question. The question is why Lilady has it, what she is going to do with that information and whether her having the information poses a threat to the lives of the individuals who reside at the residence, some who may or may not be minors.
Therefore, my suggestion to both you and her is that you both watch what you say and do because this site is a public domain and if she should do something stupid, reckless and unconscionable with that information, all of those who supported her violating the privacy of those individuals may potentially be charged as accessories. Legal precedents happen everyday.
@Holographic:
What a non-sequitor. How is stopping people from inflicting bleach enemas on autistics (yes, that has happened) letting children "languish in pain"?
Autism is not G.I. in origin. Again, a total non-sequitor.
Pesticide-laden? All food crops are washed thoroughly before packaging. As to the 49 doses of vaccines at once, our bodies are subjected to more antigens in an hour than is in the entire vaccine schedule. If there are no contraindications, nothing bad will happen.
Khani, #170 "There are good medical contraindications for breastfeeding in certain cases, such as when a mother has an infectious illness.
Do not assume it is laziness.
Do not assume all women are capable of producing enough milk to keep an infant from starving, either. Not all of us are.
Don’t be what Tina Fey referred to as a “Teat Nazi.” Yeah, she went too far with the Nazi comparison, but making a woman feel guilty for not being physically able to produce enough breastmilk, or for being deathly ill while giving birth? Not cool."
Do not presume to ask me to do something the rest of you aren't willing to do. You have all hurled accusations at innocent people. When you stop, then I will consider it. Until then, lazy it is. For the record, no one assumed anything. Go back and read her comment. She said it was the one thing she could do. I simply disagreed. It's not the one thing or the only thing. She could have breastfed if she wanted to. Period.
@Holographic:
First off, the address is in the public domain. lilady did not hack into a database to get it so your comments about "violation of privacy" are laughable. Secondly, your insinuation that Wakefield is being stalked and targeted are also laughable. Finally, warning me about legal consequences if something happens to Wakefield? That is pathetic.
Ian MacGregor @162{
She at one time spoke, though never said Mommy and Daddy, but knew the names of nearly eveything at home and in the yard and was very good at categorizing. Once she had an example of what a flower was, she recognized flowers which were quite different.
Sorry, couldn't read much after that due to tearing up and inability to see screen.
Julian Frost, what stork were you just delivered from? Tell the doctors at Columbia Presbyterian who are indeed treating G.I. issues in children with Autism ver successfully and it has been covered in Atlantic Monthly. Please, it is sad how uninformed you really are. Just reading your comments truly opens my eyes that perhaps you are not understanding the gravity of what you are doing and saying and the horrific impact and toll it will have.
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/06/in-autism-the-importa…
Look, I don't think anybody's going to claim that 1975 was a great year for the Billboard Hot 100,* but do you similarly refer to, say, "that old rock song, 'Born to Run'"? It's not "Ahab the Arab," for cryin' out loud.
* As lads, a friend and I had this -- memorized. I've pretty much lost the singly linked list, although I can reliably identify elements. He, on the other hand, seems to have it doubly linked at this point.
#182 I haven't, actually. Feel free to go back and look; I only have four comments on this thread, counting this one, and one of them is an if-statement, a conditional which was hopefully not fulfilled.
You don't know that she could have breastfed if she had wanted to. There are plenty of women who truly cannot.
Of course, there are probably lots of other ways she protects her baby that she doesn't even think about, every day, like using a carseat, or not allowing the baby to wear a necklace. Moms do lots for their kids, and it's not limited to vaccinations or breastfeeding -- though both are certainly a very good start, if they can be done.
(After all, there are a few cases where people should not vaccinate, as well -- allergies and the like.)
Julian Frost
September 4, 2013
@Holographic:
"Therefore, my suggestion to both you and her is that you both watch what you say and do because this site is a public domain and if she should do something stupid, reckless and unconscionable with that information, all of those who supported her violating the privacy of those individuals may potentially be charged as accesories.
"First off, the address is in the public domain. lilady did not hack into a database to get it so your comments about “violation of privacy” are laughable." Okay, how do you know that? Were you with her 24/7 up her ass? So, you are privy to her inner thoughts and intentions? Is lilady you perhaps?
"Secondly, your insinuation that Wakefield is being stalked and targeted are also laughable". Really, because from where the objective observer can tell she knows too damn much for most people's liking, except those who have a fetish for being stalked.
"Finally, warning me about legal consequences if something happens to Wakefield? That is pathetic."
Really? You think so? Why? Because you know lilady's intentions, and you think its normal and sane and okay to have access to the address of the person you are viciously attacking, maligning and destroying on a blog? Does that sound normal to you that she would search for that info as part of her research to post in the comments section of a thread? Seriously? You really believe that behavior isn't desperate and sociopathic? i guess you too are severely vaccine injured then.
Sweet Jesus. Are you an imbecile by trade or just an enthusiastic hobbyist? You know what's even spookier? Brace yourself: I can even tell you when Wakefraud transferred ownership of the property to a trust.
I will be awaiting the authorities to swoop down at any moment.
@Holographic:
Wakefield's house is for sale in Austin Texas. The address is available if you know where to look.
Knows too much? Wakefield has been in the public eye since 1998 when he published his "case study" linking MMR to Autism. He has spoken to the press a lot. There is a great deal of information about him out there.
"Knows too much"...I don't think that means what you think it means.
Nope.
Finally, where is your evidence (NOT insinuations) that lilady is stalking Wakefield? And no, your previous remarks are not good enough.
this site is a public domain
Goodness me. How many public domains are there?
I had a look at that article on The Atlantic. Here' are two phrases that caught my eye.
and
In other words, an autistic with GI issues is likely to act up, but the GI issues don't cause the autism.
she knows too damn much for most people’s liking
Really? Lilady has dabbled in THINGS WE WERE NOT MEANT TO KNOW? Blasphemous transgressions of the natural limits to knowledge? I have watched enough horror movies to know that this always ends badly.
Alain,
Sorry for the delay answering your question about the "cookbook." I saw and read it in a branch of Chapters but don't remember the actual title. It was in the self-help/psychology section. I'll try to track down the title and get back to you.
Wow - I guess all of Jen's posts at AoA directed at Lilady have stirred up a bit of a hornet's nest....heck, just for fun, I ran a couple of Google searches myself & am now in possession of Wakefield's address....guess that mean's the authorities will be coming after me too....
I note that "Holographic" is a sockpuppet of "yourworstnightmare":
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/09/02/sharyl-attkisson-and-cbs-n…
Same IP address. Same e-mail address.
"Holographic": Sockpuppets are a no-no here. Pick an 'nym and stick with it.This is the only warning you will receive.
You might want to ask you friend over at SBM to check out another possible sockpuppet for "yourworstnightmare." Almost the same words and comment posted the same day:
RCHMOM says:
September 2, 2013 at 9:26 am
The State sanctioned Loyola for having Alex in restraints without permission and for too long! You can’t deny that…does this pass your “smell-test” now?!?!!
Orac,
Are you threatening me? Are you trying to intimidate me? My goodness I am so scared. Wow, I have to explore whether it's illegal for you to have anyone else's IP address. You remind me of of a character on South Park, no dialogue, just lies there...Mr. Hanky.
@Holographic - Are you aware that Andrew Wakefield's house was up for sale (for £1,450,000) recently? The estate agent had photos of the inside of the house on the website. We've probably all seen inside Wakefield's bathroom. It's very flash indeed, if a little badly planned out.
That's not stalking. That's wondering how a discredited, struck-off doctor affords a 1.5 million dollar home...
Orac,
What stake do you have in this? Are you on the spectrum? Are you being paid? Hmm? Are you jealous of Wakefield?
Holographic,
Anyone who runs a website can get access to the IP addresses for everyone who visits there. This is well known. Just google "tracking website visitors ip address"
Holographic,
It appears that you have been smitten by Wakefield's charms. The rest of us saw through him many years ago. He's using you remaining fanboys and fangirls as tools to maintain his lavish lifestyle.
Oh you mean the same lavish lifestyle Paul Offit, Snyderman and Orac have?
I am not enamored by anyone. As for Wakefield, I hardly think owning a home worth less than 2 million is lavish. In many circles that is only upper middle class, not wealthy. Furthermore, since I don't know him, haven't offered him money, I am not helping to maintain his or anyone else's lifestyle. You are creating stories in your head that don't exist.
Of course I'm not threatening you. I'm informing you of the rules of commenting here, which are quite lax. One of those few rules, however, is that I don't tolerate sockpuppets. Stick with one 'nym, so that everyone knows you're the same person, and you can comment. Change 'nyms without announcing it, and I'll ban you from commenting. Some "threat."
As for IP addresses, every time someone comments here the IP address from which they commented is logged. That's how WordPress works, and that's how pretty much every online forum works. You comment, your IP address is logged by the website. That's one way that I verify that a seemingly new commenter is a sock puppet. I compare IP addresses.
@Holographic:
Where I come from, being able to afford a $1,450,000 home IS wealthy. Earning GBP 435,000 for two years work is lavish.
Hmmm…you just accused a bunch of innocent people of killing Alex.
Hmmm? You may have even paid for that info.
Hmm? Are you jealous of Wakefield?
From Comment #92 I repeat Bimler's 2nd Rules for Interduct Commenting, i.e. that you lose credibility when you start doing bee impersonations.
Oh dear, AoA/Wakefield has quite the stable of defenders. If one needs to "explore whether it’s illegal for you to have anyone else’s IP address." then perhaps it's time for you to put the internets down; you might poke your eye out.
I think Holographic would be horrified to know that AoA also tracks IP Addresses of its commentators....
Someone at AoA asked if the health of the Amish & mortality rates had ever been studied....I attempted to respond, because after a couple of simple searches, I found a lot more than I bargained for:
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500164_162-700519.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3077314/
Among others - really not a pretty picture when you look at it.....I especially found the part where 1/2 of the markers in the Amish Graveyard were of children....
And this is a group that AoA looks up to as the "paragons of good health?" Tragic really.....no wonder AoA doesn't want this information seen by the "faithful."
As a general rule of thumb, if you're wealthy yourself, anyone with less money than you doesn't count as "wealthy".
According to this site (http://www.realestateabc.com/outlook/overall.htm), average house price in the USA is a shade over $200,000.
This site (http://answerparty.com/question/answer/what-percentage-of-american-fami…) reckons around seven percent of Americans have a net worth of over $1,000,000 - let alone a house worth $1.5 million.
These figures would seem to put Wakefield into the "bloody loaded" category of wealth.
How does a discredited, struck off doctor make that sort of money?
It also depends on where you live. $1,000,000, for instance, will buy a lot more house where I live than it would in, for example, Chicago, San Francisco, or the NYC metro area. Where I am, a million dollar house would be quite lavish. In one of those places, not so much. I remember that when I lived in NJ I was shocked at how much houses cost. Close to NYC or in one of the five boroughs, $1,000,000 wouldn't buy much house (or apartment). I couldn't figure out how upper middle class people afforded such mortgages.
Holograph/Worst Nightmare and whatever sock puppet you decide on.
I have never in my life stalked anyone. Wakefield's address is common knowledge on the internet, as is the fact that several of his corporations where he derives income from, have there business addresses listed there, including the Autism Media Channel.
You've insulted me and others on this blog for hours with your potty-mouthed filth.
See, unlike you, I have a professional reputation, a professional license in good standing...and the respect of the science community. I post under my 'nym (unlike you) because I have been involved in advocacy activities on behalf of developmentally disabled kids and adults for 37 years, and, in the past, have been threatened because I have testified at State and Federal hearings and I have appeared in print media and on television because of my advocacy hearings.
And you Holographic, who doesn't know the difference between slander and liable, who came here on a "mission", what is your education level, your professional licensing, your work experience in any health care field and when have you ever expended any energy to advocate for any autistic/developmentally disabled child or adult?
@holographic you are giving quite good insight into your relationship with reality if you think "< 2 million" is the definition of modest. In Austin. For a defrocked doctor who can no longer practice his trade.
Per the Austin Chamber of Commerce, the cost of living: http://www.austinchamber.com/do-business/data-research/area-profile/cos…
But, with regards to stalking, Wakefield is not one to hide his face and doings. He relishes attention of any kind; I wonder if he feels a stalker is validation of his worth.
I'll be off line for a few hours. I expect that the filthy mouthed "Holographic" and/or her sock puppets will be providing us with her education, professional licensing, work experience in any health-care-related field and her advocacy activities.
Ian MacGregor and lilady, my heart goes out to you both. Thank you so much for sharing your touching stories of your amazing children. I am so thankful to have 'met' both of you, and to have your children's lives in my heart.
FYI:
Another commenter linked to the announcement of AJW's property offering here and lilady saw it the SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE; prior to that, someone else ( male) had linked to the address- thus his estate's locus, visually represented, was common knowledge @ RI for some time.
There was also a NYT magazine article that included details about his abode.
-re "prices" -
my cousins and I joke that you have to be rich to be middle class- being that most of us live in the most costly markets on both sides of the Atlantic.
OK, OK... so I do live in an ivory tower constructed of real ivory on an attractively crumbling cliff overlooking the swirling, dark waters...
but my two units don't add up to 1200 sq ft totes.
@ Orac:
Oh most beneficent and supremely illustrious hosting computer, we grovel anxiously before you-
BUT it's a b!tch to comment here for the past few days: what up with that?
No idea. You'd think that all that filthy pharma lucre we're accused of wallowing in would pay for adequate bandwidth and technical support to make sure the blogs ran well...
For that matter, he doesn't know whether she could have and in fact did breastfeed her children.
@Lilady 172: I'm not sure strong punishment would be a deterrent . This was a murder coupled with two attempts at suicide.
It is necessary to show that society recognizes Alex as a person with just as much worth as you or I.
@Alain 163. We have tried various things. PECS including devices which produce audio based on the PECS card. Cards she rips up. Devices she throws over the fence. I mean literally ,over the fence.
We have also tried sign. She appeared to have learned 3-4 very basic ones. Soon however, every sign becomes give me what I want. We so often don't know what that is.
Mentally she is about 2, and our inability to understand often results in crying jags over an hour long coupled with aggressive behavior.
Her most consistent form of communication has been one she
developed on her own. She'll bring us the remote if she wants a video, or a glass or an empty soda can if she wants something to drink. Lately the can has meant please open the fridge, so
I can see what I want. We have to keep it locked otherwise its contents are spread over the house.
I find it hilarious that someone is alarmed that Orac can get IP addresses for the commenters. Holographic obviously hasn't the least idea how the Internet works.
Your IP address isn't private information. It can't be; otherwise, the server wouldn't know where to send the page when you request it and you would never be able to read anything. The Internet literally would not work if your IP address wasn't freely given out with each HTTP request.
Now, you *can* use a proxy server to conceal your IP address; the website you're visiting then only has to know the proxy server's IP address, and then that server passes the data along to your real IP address. But if you're shocked that Orac has access to the HTTP request logs, then that might be a bit more advanced than you're used to.
I wonder if Alex's story will lead to a book deal for someone?
Recent scanning/ digging has enabled me to piece together the following:
Skyhorse Publishing is a project of Tony Lyons and has been quietly gathering strength as a go-to BFF for anti-vaxxers and other woo-meisters-
And here's why -
he has a daughter with an ASD and his ex has now written a book about her, " Finding Lina: A Mother's Journey from Autism to Hope" ( by Helena Hjalmarsson- see AoA and TMR, the past few days, offered as a prize at both).
He has enabled AJW, Kim Stagliano, Ken Siri ( with Lyons) -and IIRC also LHK and Holland and TMR- in spreading their manure... er... woo on paper. He has also given Gary Null a 12 book/ film deal: his next Meisterwerk will be on vaccines.
-btw- Talking about filthy pharma lucre:
I have invested a bit of my own in exotic, precious Moroccan argan oil ( Argania Spinosa) for hair-
Not only has it amplified my waves, it has amplified my life.
Buy some for yourself and the un-ruly haired ones you love.
Yes, I also shill for Big Cosmeceutical
Wow, Orac. You do appear to have lured quite the mental giant of the anti-vaccine movement here. Holographic engages in such astounding displays of logic and verbiage, it is a wonder we don't all simply melt in our seats in pure awe and wonder at her (his/its) simply phenomenal spewings.
Holo, O Great and Mighty Orator, Ye of the Ever-Sleepless Typing Fingers and All-Seeing Benefactor of Mystical Insight, thank you for honoring us, mere crumbs of existence that quail before your mighty glory, with your radiant words! Truly do I stand (sit?) in awe of you and the galactic knowledge you surely possess, of which, in your eternal beneficence, you have shown us, slugs though we are, an infinitesimal glimpse. If time allowed, I would say unto you more thank yous than exist grains of sand.
Wow, Orac. You do appear to have lured quite the mental giant of the anti-vaccine movement here. Holographic engages in such astounding displays of logic and verbiage, it is a wonder we don't all simply melt in our seats in pure awe and wonder at her (his/its) simply phenomenal spewings.
Holo, O Great and Mighty Orator, Ye of the Ever-Sleepless Typing Fingers and All-Seeing Benefactor of Mystical Insight, thank you for honoring us, mere crumbs of existence that quail before your mighty glory, with your radiant words! Truly do I stand (sit?) in awe of you and the galactic knowledge you surely possess, of which, in your eternal beneficence, you have shown us, slugs though we are, an infinitesimal glimpse. If time allowed, I would say unto you more thank yous than exist grains of sand.
@ Todd W.:
You know, I scanned some David Icke Matrix videos the other day and he believes that everything is *holographic*- which is why alt med works:
is it possible that we are being graced with a visit from a follower?
Even better, on the let's-irritate-AoA front, they give a hat tip to Austism Speaks. What apparently eludes Holographic* is that nobody denies that gut problems can be particularly troublesome for a child who's not able to adequately verbalize the issue.
* They're all a trick done with mirrors.
@ Narad:
re *
Not only that but each part essentially contains an image of the whole- validating the homunculism of reflexology.
Yah, and don't you know his little mind would be blown if he ever sees a full header on an e-mail? There are IP addresses aplenty, including the source IP. Everyone you have sent an e-mail to has your IP.
I think that latter bit has been quite clear for some time. Impressively, I got this last night:
That's just a snippet. Note to IT monkeys: barfing up stderr to the user in a failure condition is generally taken to be a sign of poor security on top of the poor administration that led to the problem in the first place.
Holographic, I will start off slow with you, and just take on one issue, in this case the unwarranted conclusions you draw based around the Atlantic article. First, let's remember that although The Atlantic is a fine magazine, it's still not a science resource, and an article there is not a scientific study.
Now, let's consider why autists might have GI issues.
In the first place, there are many thousands of autistic people; we have the same health problems as any other large group - GI problems, heart disease, cancer, asthma, whatever there is, so there should be a substantial number of GI patients in this group.
Next, let's think about constipation, which gets particular mention. Many autistic people have food aversions and a limited diet, obviously a potential cause of constipation, other GI problems, and other general health issues. More severely affected folk on the spectrum with communication or behavioral problems may not have had completely successful toilet training, or may not be able to adequately request access to a toilet when needed - again, a notable risk factor for constipation and other GI problems. Further, communication problems mean impaired ability to bring complaints to caregivers, which can lead to all kinds of behaviors such as the article lays out.
The next issue is a question of correlation. Given that autism is the result of disordered CNS development, and that the gut has a substantial, if primitive, degree of innervation, isn't it possible that the gut might be affected by the same cause in some cases? If so, treating the one would have no effect on the other. Treating a broken finger won't heal a broken ankle.
Now, something else to consider is just what all these trumpery treatments are supposed to do. Since autism manifests from brain architecture gone awry, a "cure" would have to essentially physically restructure the brain. Can you tell me exactly how bleach enemas or chelation of supposed toxins or chemical castration is going to accomplish this? Does the bleach contain an army of invisible bleach fairies that will swim through the bloodstream and across the blood-brain barrier, whence they will set to work with their tiny invisible magic wands?
Please tell.
I believe this is just another garden-variety dimwit from the AoA cesspool although that is not to say that there isn't some crossover between the dens of gobshites.
Yikes. That is bad, barfing up those errors. It's 2013 -- systems really should be able to fail gracefully by now. There's no excuse.
More anti-vax mania:
Next Thursday, NYC:
the world premiere of a new, documentary **-
"Silent Epidemic: The Untold Story of Vaccines"
with Suzanne Humphries MD, the International Medical Council on Vaccination, Prof Mary Holland, Louise Habakus.
A Gary Null film.
30 USD includes admission and a copy of the DVD
( via progressiveradionetwork.com/ see website for details and tickets).
** heh
Okay, where is the filthy-mouthed ignorant Holographic? Ha...everyone knows I am not computer savvy...but even I know that your IP address is available to the blogger. That's the reason why I don't post on sites, such as AoA and other crank anti-vaccine blogs.
@ Ian Mac Gregor: I want both of Alex's murderers to stand trial...and I want the juries to deal as harshly with them as they would murderers of a neurotypical child. I feel there is an excellent chance that the State or the defendants will subpoena the bio-meddlers, Wakefield, Tommey, the videotaping crew from the Autism Media Channel, Krigsman and the doctors and nurses who cared for Alex during his hospitalizations.
First and foremost I want CBS to take down the Attkisson video segment and if Wakefield sold the 18 minute documentary to CBS I don't want it televised. Alex's right to privacy while he was alive was egregiously violated and I don't want him to be victimized now that he is dead.
@ Scared Momma: Thank you so much for your kind words.
I am not enamored by anyone.
If this is an attempt to write blues lyrics, you are emphatically doing it wrong.
@hdb
Just as Holographic is translogical, they also seem to be transpoetic. "I ain't got nobody" is so much pithier.
Denice,
Isn't that the famous goat-poop oil? The goats climb the argan trees, eat the fruit and poop out the undigested kernel. The locals collect the poop, extract the kernels and crush them to extract the oil.
@ Krebiozen:
I believe that that is the TRADITIONAL method of extracting the oil: more modern Euro-centric manufacturing techniques entirely bypass the goats.
HOWEVER the effects are so mind-shatteringly fabulous that I would buy it even if it DID involve ((shudder)) goats.
I'd rather put goat-poop oil in my hair, than drink this stuff. :-)
http://now.msn.com/kopi-luwak-is-worlds-most-expensive-coffee-and-comes…
Before I forget. For all my Jewish friends celebrating Rosh Hashanah....L'Shana Tova.
-lilady
Be aware that just going to a site gives up your IP, and a whole lot more. They can't get your e-mail addy, but they can still know plenty. Of course, if you just connect and read the site, you will probably lost in the noise.
See http://www.whatsmyip.org/more-info-about-you/
No hacker tools, just standard http. It happens with every site you go to.
Denice,
I don't know - it seems an efficient way of collecting the kernels and a quick rinse should remove any goat poop clinging to them. The coffee lilady mentioned sets a sort of gourmet poop-precedent I think.
I don't have a problem with herbivore poop - cow, sheep and horse (except Metropolitan police horse) poop have a delicate earthy aroma. Then again I was raised in the countryside where animal effluvia are more tolerated than in cities. I can't stand goat milk or cheese though - delicious at first, then a horrible after-taste. As long as you only put it on your hair there should be no problems.
I do have a soft spot for Moroccan goats, which hunt in packs eating anything that stays still long enough. I fondly remember the butcher's shop windows with goats heads on display with the tops of the skulls neatly sliced off to reveal the brains, a la Hannibal Lecter, and the old lady I ran into at a market who was clutching a newly decapitated goat's head dripping blood. Happy days...
Johnny,
That's one reason I use a VPN. My current IP is in Romania, should Orac bother to check.
Note to natgeo IT monkey:
This is recommended reading: http://www.kegel.com/c10k.html
Also, /var/local/www/ SHOULD BE READ-ONLY!!!! (in case it's not), all the settings are stored in the database.
Alain
Pssst, Narad's current IP is in Syria.
* What's a VPN ?
Holographic@173: Utter, total, complete, weapons-grade reading comprehension fail.
@lilady
Virtual Private Network, a connexion between a pair of computer (the client and the server) located in the same or different region which pass over the internet. It is also encrypted so any attempt at eyesdropping is made difficult to near impossible (thought not totally impossible).
Alain
Krebs: Goat milk only has a bad aftertaste if it is oxidized (i.e. old) or if a Billy is near the Does.
One of a Billy's less endearing habits is to pee on themselves and rub it over their body to increase their "attractiveness". There's a reason why lots of us prefer sheep...
The great part is that it's date-stamped. This was apparently supposed to be an upgrade, and nobody seems to have noticed since deployment that it's badly broken.
@HDB #238
No one is enamored of me with the possible exception of my maternal parent. However, there is a non-zero probability that the aforementioned person may be disingenuous.
I’d rather put goat-poop oil in my hair, than drink this stuff.
Mikkeller use it in their Beer Geek coffee breakfast beer.
http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/mikkeller-beer-geek-breakfast-pooh-coffee-…
Sheepmilker,
I have been told this before, by goat freaks aficionados who have given me supposedly good-tasting goat products, but I must be hypersensitive, as this only seems to delay the awful aftertaste.
Boy does a certain hack have his knickers in a knot this morning
Contact CBS: Support its Strong Reporting on Alex Spourdalakis
In other news, the petition to Change.org is up to 1,456 supporters. Great reporting, Dan!
Forgot the link to the petition. Did I mention that Dan alleges that there are only "half a dozen hacks" who are criticizing Attkisson's twisted narrative?
https://www.change.org/petitions/cbs-news-take-down-the-video-behind-th…
Also see Emily Willingham's strongly worded piece this morning If A Parent Murders An Autistic Child, Who Is To Blame?"
This is what happens when CBS slants a story. Other people with autistic children decide to give it a try..
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2013/09/teen_with_autism_…
Pour it on, people. Sharyl Attkisson and CBS must be feeling the heat. AoA just called in the flying monkeys for tactical air support for Attkisson:
http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/09/contact-cbs-support-its-strong-repor…
I knew they must have been feeling the heat when an autism biomeddler tried to complain about me to my employers:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/09/05/an-anonymous-critic-compla…
I'm calling in the troops to post on Emily Willingham's Forbes posts.
There is this one and another post where the bot came to post. I've been posting comments all afternoon...so come and join me.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2013/09/05/if-a-parent-murd…
That's strange that you have the nerve to call anyone a meddler. The pot calling the kettle black.
You are not an autism expert. You pretty much aren't an expert at anything but doing potential harm to others. What a legacy you are leaving humanity.
Lilady, interesting...what bot would that be? You are a robot. So is Emily Willingham for that matter. She studies the male anatomy. She is not an Autism expert. Neither are you. Is someone paying you to do this? You need to get a better job. Very tragic how you would all rather fight against helping children suffering in pain than help them get the medical attention they deserve.
My letter to CBS news:
Hello CBS news,
I am writing to protest the video made by Sharyl Attkisson which was the subject of Alex Spourdalakis' death and which featured unlicensed doctor Andrew Jeremy Wakefield for which his entire career has been trying to find a link between the MMR vaccine and crohn disease and later on, autism.
My complain is that the video condone murder of autistic individuals and present the finding of a single doctor, Andrew Wakefield who committed medical and scientific fraud in his latest scientific publication including this one:
Wakefield AJ, Murch SH, Anthony A, Linnell J, Casson DM, Malik M, Berelowitz M, Dhillon AP, Thomson MA, Harvey P, Valentine A, Davies SE, Walker-Smith JA. Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, non-specific colitis, and pervasive developmental disorder in children. Lancet. 1998 Feb 28;351(9103):637-41. Retraction in: Lancet. 2010 Feb 6;375(9713):445. Partial retraction in: Murch SH, Anthony A, Casson DH, Malik M, Berelowitz M, Dhillon AP, Thomson MA, Valentine A, Davies SE, Walker-Smith JA. Lancet. 2004 Mar 6;363(9411):750. PubMed PMID: 9500320.
This article is one of the latest article in a long list of article implicating the MMR vaccine in bowel issues such as crohn disease and now vaccine. My informed opinion as published neuroscientist[1] is that Autism is a disorder of over-connectivity between brain regions with smaller brain cells and 5% smaller minicolumns (bundles of fibers containing neurons) for which the brain may have 23% more neuron and the required white matter connectivity between these neurons. I can provide citation on demand for my opinion.
[1] == Samson F, Zeffiro TA, Toussaint A, Belin P. Stimulus complexity and categorical effects in human auditory cortex: an activation likelihood estimation meta-analysis. Front Psychol. 2010;1:241. doi: 10.3389/fpsyg.2010.00241. PubMed PMID: 21833294; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC3153845.
The finding reported by Dr. Wakefield ignore the massive number of finding in the neuroimaging litterature of Autism in the top 5 Autism Research groups in the world and countless other research groups and furthermore, haven't been replicated by other researchers despite several tries by other research groups, be they sympathetic to doctor Wakefield or not. Furthermore, no mechanism of action has been reported by any groups favorable to Dr. Wakefield on how the MMR or any other vaccine will cause a size reduction of brain cells, an increase in the absolute number of brain cells in autistic brain or even in the enteric nervous system. In fact, the only hypothesis it propose is that of damage to the brain (or remotely, the enteric nervous system); an hypothesis dating from the years before 1995 which purported that autistic may have subtle (or not) brain damage. The current research moved away from that hypothesis because it provided no useful clue how to investigate the autistic brain.
Regarding the hypothesis that all autism researchers are in the pay of big pharma, it is nonsustaining. Drug development is terribly costly and for one medication that work, there are 19 other medications which fail to achieve marketability but still command large cost to develop. The blockbusters pay for those development cost of all the other medication. The pay for scientist come from funding agency and furthermore, from our taxes and thus, we owe it to the public to develop and test our hypothesis and in that regard, I'd recommend that Sharyl Attkisson interview top Autism scientists from the country or the world to get a good look at the current state of research in Autism, not medically unlicensed scientist like Dr. Wakefield which present a very limited view of Autism which is not scientifically accepted.
Alain Toussaint
Holographic,
I dedicate the aforementioned CBS letter to you :D
Bring it on.
Alain
@Holo - so the Dachel (or Daschel)-monkeys that descend upon her anointed posts to parrot the party line of "Wakefield, MMR, autism" aren't bots? Could have fooled me....funny actually, since she posts exactly the same thing - over and over and over again, despite having been debunked over and over again....
@Holo - I guess your call to Orac's employers didn't get the response you anticipated, did it?
"So is Emily Willingham for that matter. She studies the male anatomy."
What? Where did you get this misinformation? She has studied endocrine disrupters and their effect on development.
Oh, I see, you thought that since she studies sex reversal in turtle embryos, that's "studying the male anatomy"
Here's here google citations page.
http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=wNaigzwAAAAJ&hl=en
Can you point me to the google citations page for the bloggers at, say, the Age of Autism?
Emily Willingham [...] is not an Autism expert.
Motherhood only confers expertise when the mother in question agrees with AoA. That's one of the rules of Calvinball.
that’s “studying the male anatomy”
Holographic is calling Ms Willingham a slut but being classy about it.
Holographic,
First of all, I would criticize your spelling, but it's beneath me to point those things out. Second, no one, ever, no way, no how has ever condoned the murder of that beautiful boy. Get it straight. No one ever wanted him dead. We all wanted him to heal from his medical issues and live healthfully. Every child on this planet deserves access to sound medical care, where they are not deprived of appropriate interventions when medically necessary. I am not even angry with you Alain for wrongfully accusing all of us. I truly feel pity for you that you don't understand that each child is an individual and unique and just because one child on the spectrum may not present as severely as Alex did, it does not mean that all children on the spectrum are healthy. Alex was sick, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. He was. You choose to make this battle about Wakefield, instead of making about a child who was suffering. Truly reprehensible of your community of bloggers to stand in the way of these children accessing healthcare. Don't you understand that what you are all doing is preventing these children from fully being included in healthcare? Do you all hate their parents so much that you want to see them suffer watching their children languish in pain? Truly sad that you choose not to even try to see the other side of this issue. Alain, I am so flattered that you dedicated it to me. I don't have anything to dedicate to you except a small dose of pity.
Echoing Lawrence @269 and would like to add Holo that you are a coward and a perfect example of why people use 'nyms here. You are also allowed to comment here for a reason. You expose the stupidity of the anti vaccine movement in one single post better than Orac can do with several blog articles. Keep up the good work stupid. :p
If her child is on the spectrum, it doesn't mean that she understands the needs of all children on the spectrum. Perhaps she was uniquely fortunate in that her child's autism presents as mild. If so, then I am happy for that. Personally, I don't wish suffering on any parent. I am NOT calling her a 'slut'. if you go to her website, she explains her education and background. It's all there...Geez, you even misinterpret the truth.
I don't even know what you are talking about? Who is lawrence? In what way am I a coward? Oh, so now you resort to name calling?
When you have nothing of substance, you resort to name calling. Brilliant move.
Alain, first of all, I would criticize your spelling, but it’s beneath me to point those things out. Second, no one, ever, no way, no how has ever condoned the murder of that beautiful boy. Get it straight. No one ever wanted him dead. We all wanted him to heal from his medical issues and live healthfully. Every child on this planet deserves access to sound medical care, where they are not deprived of appropriate interventions when medically necessary. I am not even angry with you Alain for wrongfully accusing all of us. I truly feel pity for you that you don’t understand that each child is an individual and unique and just because one child on the spectrum may not present as severely as Alex did, it does not mean that all children on the spectrum are healthy. Alex was sick, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. He was. You choose to make this battle about Wakefield, instead of making about a child who was suffering. Truly reprehensible of your community of bloggers to stand in the way of these children accessing healthcare. Don’t you understand that what you are all doing is preventing these children from fully being included in healthcare? Do you all hate their parents so much that you want to see them suffer watching their children languish in pain? Truly sad that you choose not to even try to see the other side of this issue. Alain, I am so flattered that you dedicated it to me. I don’t have anything to dedicate to you except a small dose of pity
Okay, now I saw Lawrence's posts. I do not like being falsely accused of something I had no involvement in. Who is the real Orac? Do any of you know? Why don't you enlighten us all?
Second, in order for someone to contact his employers, they would have to know who he really is. I don't know who he is because he has not revealed himself...has he revealed himself to all of you?
Nice try holographic coward and liar. Keep posting though the Lulz just keep coming.. Nice to see that you take seriously the work you do for us namely to expose the stupidity of the anti vaccine drones.
Keep up the good work...your BigPharma cheque is in the mail :)
Holographic:
Here are some others who are not autism experts:
Andrew Wakefield
Dan Olmsted
Robert Kennedy, Jr
Jenny McCarthy
Sallie Bernard
JB Handley
Kim Stagliano
Polly Tommey
David Kirby
Mark Geier
Mark Blaxill
Boyd Haley
Rashid Buttar
Arthur Krigsman
Marcel Kinsbourne
Lyn Redwood
Sallie Bernard
Richard Deth
Vera Myers
Gary Goldman
Barbara Loe Fisher
Bob Sears
... and anyone who writes for Age of Autism who is not listed.
Holographic,
You misunderstand me. First, I am autistic and I don't even prevent getting medical care as I, myself, have got surgical care last month for a ruptured appendix last month. What I don't condone is unproven and unreplicated medical care in the form delivered by Wakefield and its ilks. The hypocrate (sp?) oath is all about delivering the best medical care there is evidence behind and the care delivered by Dr. Krigsman on Alex Spourdalakis has no evidence behind. I've stated the reasons why in my letter.
As for autistics having bowel issues, they are in the same proportions as neurotypical (else, you're free to propose me otherwise but bring solid evidence).
As for doctor Wakefield, his career stood on the MMR vaccine so it's only natural that I consider him biased, especially because he hasn't been replicated.
In contrast, in neuroimaging, the field is very solid because there is a ton of replications and meta-analysis of these replications.
Alain
Made a mistake,
I don't even pretend to deny medical care to autistics.
Alain
Who is the real Orac? Do any of you know? Why don’t you enlighten us all?
Let us hope that Orac doesn't link to his background information somewhere on this page! Let's hope that Age of Autism never provide details about him!
@Holo - if Alex's bowel was as lacerated or full of lesions as has been claimed, what exactly caused it? I can think of a variety of methods that "quack autism cures" like MMS would cause extreme bowel distress - not to mention irreparable harm to the entire digestive track....why was Alex so fearful of going to the Doctor - to the point where his Mother had to call the police?
Why exactly was he described as a music loving, gentle soul by the rest of his family, but AoA & his mother described his as a rage-filled, non-verbal, bed-ridden individual?
It seems that whatever his mother was doing to him to "cure" his autism was the actual cause of the entire situation - what exactly happened between his discharge from the hospital, subsequent treatment by Dr. Krigsman & involvement of Wakefield?
Inquiring minds want to know - because it seems that those individuals were the last to see Alex alive....I hope the Prosecutors call them as witnesses....
So much for "doing your own research" and stuff, huh? It took me between 15 and 30 seconds to find out who Orac really was. It's not hard, Holographic. If you guys have figured out that teh vaccines are evil, surely you'll find out who Orac is.
Not only that, but I'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts (see what I did there?) that "Holographic" is the person that called Orac's employer. Her vitriol reads just like the call's transcript.
Clearly it's not since you just did. And even given that English is a second language for Alain, he's still way ahead of you, a native speaker.
Oh no of course not, just hand-waved his murder away and throwing a pity party and fundraiser for Mummy dearest.
You don't say. And what exactly were all of "you" doing to help Alex? How does chasing attending physicians down the hall and shouting them down constitute help? None of you are even qualified healthcare professionals. Who in Hades do you think you are to decide what medical treatment someone should get? Your biomed is mental and just because you're too dim to understand that doesn't mean everyone else should accept it. And that makes you mad doesn't it.
What qualifications does Wakefield have? Why didn't he help Alex? Why didn't Krigsman help Alex? Why didn't any of you biomeddlers help Alex? Where were you if you wanted to "heal" him so badly?
Please tell me how we are "preventing any children from fully being included in healthcare?" Are we locking them up? Or does it just chap your ar$e that we may be able to keep some parents from going down the voodoo road with a presentation of the evidence like the abuse you people subject your children to in the name of "curing" them?
I guess being a neurobiologist doesn't count when talking about a neurodevelopmental delay, eh? What's your area of expertise? How do we know you're not just a stay-at-home medical coder who thinks that knowing the ICD-9 system qualifies her as an expert?
Put your credentials on the table. Show us yours and we'll show you ours.
Not only that, but I’m willing to bet dollars to doughnuts (see what I did there?) that “Holographic” is the person that called Orac’s employer. Her vitriol reads just like the call’s transcript.
There's no disingenuousness like sudden feigned ignorance disingenuousness.
@Holographic
Actually, we're trying to keep the focus on Alex, how he was murdered, and how no matter how difficult he may have been, that is not any excuse for killing him. Dorothy Spourdalakis and Jolanta Skrodzka do not deserve pity. They had options. They refused them. They gave up their right to sympathy when they killed Alex.
This sort of thing happens too frequently. Individuals with disabilities are abused and even killed, yet their killers are the ones who get the sympathy, not the victims.
Alain, you commented, "What I don’t condone is unproven and unreplicated medical care in the form delivered by Wakefield and its ilks. The hypocrate (sp?) oath is all about delivering the best medical care there is evidence behind and the care delivered by Dr. Krigsman on Alex Spourdalakis has no evidence behind. I’ve stated the reasons why in my letter.
As for autistics having bowel issues, they are in the same proportions as neurotypical (else, you’re free to propose me otherwise but bring solid evidence)."
But Alain what you are failing to understand is that Alex was a individual child with a unique set of G.I. issues. Not every child will present as severely for a myriad of reasons which remain unknown. Alain, in order to know why he was experiencing such severe abdominal pain, a doctor would have to do a scope. Procedures, such as imaging, often aren't accurate or they can be misleading. I'm not lying to you to prove anything. I am just asking you to understand that in this case there seemed to be a unique set of circumstances. What disturbs me is that you are all using Alex to go after Wakefield and others. They broke no laws from what I know. Putting Wakefield and Krigsman aside, the hospital did break laws in not treating Alex for his G.I. issues. Furthermore, the two doctors you mentioned, would never have had to even be involved if not for the neglect of the hospital in ignoring his bowel disease. You can believe whatever you choose to, but in this particular case, I believe it was warranted for Alex to receive treatment for bowel disease. My only fear and concern is that because you are all waging this senseless war, children will remain without medical treatment. Can you step back and even try to understand my concern. Because children are labeled Autistic as a psychiatric diagnosis, my fear is that in the event there is G.I. distress and disease, it will remain undiagnosed and untreated because part of the mainstream medical community will see the distress and behaviors associated as just behavioral/psychological issues and not medical disease.
Todd, I am not giving them any pity. How dare you suggest such a thing. What his mother did was reprehensible and any rational person can see that. But see here is the problem. You fail to separate Alex from his caregivers. The only options the mom was being offered by the system from what many have reported was to put him away where they would keep him drugged and/or experimented with. Explain to me, if any of you are parents, how do you live with yourself by sending your child away? Do you all believe that that is humane for children with ASD? Oh, you prefer we just drug these children until they can't be heard? I agree that the mom should have never killed him, but my other point is the following...let's say she developed mental illness and snapped from the pressure, where was her support system? The only people offering her help were other parents of ASD kids, not just bio med moms, but many different types of ASD moms. They were focused solely on helping Alex get medical attention. Did any one of you go to Gottlieb and extend a hand and offer to sit with Alex while she could sleep? Did anyone of you offer to find her humane alternatives for healing Alex's pain? If not, why not? If not, then why are you angry with those who did try to help?
They broke no laws from what I know.
If Wakefield offered medical advice, questions of legality do arise.
the two doctors you mentioned,
Only one doctor has been mentioned. Wakefield is not a doctor.
[...] the hospital did break laws in not treating Alex for his G.I. issues [...] the neglect of the hospital in ignoring his bowel disease.
These allegations are incomplete unless they are preceded by an appropriate disclaimer: "According to blame-deflecting individuals who offered weird cargo-cult treatment as part of a Reality TV show, and then took it away again,..."
And yet, a doctor had to diagnose me for my ruptured appendix and my medical record and my discharge paper did say that I am autistics. hell, the appendix was tied to the lower intestine. Really, how can I stress that real medical doctors check for bowel issues in autistics (and the neurotypical) and yet, only Krigsman did diagnose a whole host of issues wrt the intestine of Alex Spourdalakis. the doctors at the hospital do have to investigate thoroughly when presented with evidence of pain in the lower quadrant of the abdomen as I was taken care with and it is not with imaging that they do so.
As for autism, it's neurological but the human body in autistics work the same way as a neurotypical with all the variation that entail.
BTW, you didn't say if Alex Spourdalakis was subjected to the MMS protocol protocol by his mother and caregiver because that would be a reason that the licensed medical doctor at the hospital where Alex was treated to investigate the bowel issues. and have Alex care transferred to his father.
As for Dr. Krigsman, his diagnostic is based on a failed hypothesis so I consider him unreliable and liable for medical malpractice.
Alain
Ren, you found out who he is in seconds or minutes? That's you, maybe you called? I could care less to waste precious moments researching who he is. Ren you have too much time on your hands.
herr doktor bimler
September 5, 2013
Not only that, but I’m willing to bet dollars to doughnuts (see what I did there?) that “Holographic” is the person that called Orac’s employer. Her vitriol reads just like the call’s transcript.
There’s no disingenuousness like sudden feigned ignorance disingenuousness.
Now this is priceless...do you know what vitriol even means? Nothing I have written today has a shred of vitriol. I have not been cruel. Rational yes, cruel no. As I pointed out to Alain, I am not angry, nor am I bitter. I am fearful and concerned for children and that's it. If you can't understand that, then that is your problem and not mine.
Also, do you work with Orac? You claim you have the transcript? Interesting, very interesting. Maybe Ren will research who you are and call and report you as well to your employer.
herr doktor bimler
Dollars to doughnuts? What the heck is that?
Oh, and about sending autistics away, there are no institutions where autistics of any ilks are sent away. some have supervised apartment, some live in a regular setting, some are in group home, and some (like me) live normal life need I say that I was hospitalized (not on an internal basis) for 2 years in a psychiatric hospital to do my level 1 and 2 grade of primary school while receiving the care of a language therapist for my speaking disability (I had language development issues back them). The language therapist is the standard of care then and now for autistic individuals having language issues. As for any other health issues, they are treated by medical doctor as usual.
Alain
#277 Alain is not a native English-speaker, so yes, he doesn't write perfectly. What's your excuse?
Orac's name is no secret, but just for the sake of argument. Here: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+is+orac%27s+real+name
Alain, it is very hard to treat a non-verbal child for health issues if they can't communicate what they are. You know better. Stop trying to convince me. I know better as well. I know of teens who have been put in psychiatric hospitals present day and they are being drugged. Please stop it. I am not in the mood to argue. This entire situation is very sad and tragic and you should use your energy in making life more positive and healthy for your peers and those who are more severely affected by ASD.
@Holographic
Let's think about Dorothy Spourdalakis for a moment. What were the options: let other people care for Alex or kill him. Which is the humane choice?
If I were in that situation, and I reached the point where I considered killing my child, I would hope I would at least have the sense to give them up to someone more capable. And if I didn't have the sense to do that, I hope someone else would protect my child from me.
See now how your question is awful and sides more with Alex's murderer?
Khani, I could write perfectly 5 years ago (was correcting and translating engineers' posters...) but real life severe issues affected my grammar and number of syntax error. I'm aware of them and really wish I could improve but that will be for another time.
Alain
Khani,
#1...Mind your business. #2...Not interested in your pathetic links to Orac's real name. Don't care to know him, especially if he is in the business of facilitating the neglect of children' medical issues.
Childrens' medical issues.
Holographic wrote:"But Alain what you are failing to understand is that Alex was a individual child with a unique set of G.I. issues. Not every child will present as severely for a myriad of reasons which remain unknown. Alain, in order to know why he was experiencing such severe abdominal pain, a doctor would have to do a scope. Procedures, such as imaging, often aren’t accurate or they can be misleading. I’m not lying to you to prove anything. I am just asking you to understand that in this case there seemed to be a unique set of circumstances. What disturbs me is that you are all using Alex to go after Wakefield and others. They broke no laws from what I know. Putting Wakefield and Krigsman aside, the hospital did break laws in not treating Alex for his G.I. issues. "
Krigsman DID do a scope. Why didn't he treat Alex if he was such a know-it-all? If the money was in question, why did AoA not ask for fundraising, as they did earlier? Kim Stagliano comes close to admitting that the "mother" refused treatment from Krigsman as well.
Treading awful close to libel, there, Holly.
@ Holographic,
Okay, but brushing away a body of evidence for a failed body of evidence isn't going to improve the life of autistics individuals which by extension, improve the life of the parents too and which is the goal to strive for. All that Wakefield has done is divert good research goals to investigate a failed hypothesis.
Alain
Todd W.
An institution is capable? A dumping ground? I disagree, but again I would never condone killing a child, but why didn't any of you step in. You all knew what was happening as it was happening. What prevented all of you from stepping in to offer her help or a place to stay with Alex. You all knew that no one would rent to her or Alex. So please, tell me why didn't you all help?
...stop it. I am not in the mood to argue.
Then why do you repeatedly offer unsubstantiated (not to mention downright ignorant) statements to the effect that the people here are a) not experts, b) stalkers, c) engaged in criminal activity, d) preventing children from getting medical care and probably the rest of the alphabet if I cared enough to keep going.
Ren knows who Orac is because ORAC SAYS WHO HE IS RIGHT HERE ON HIS BLOG, for everyone who is not mind-numbingly dense to see.
Holographic,
What did you do to help Alex?
formatting fail.
Alain,
I don't want to discuss Wakefield. I don't know him, nor is he my concern. My concern is Alex and the many future Alex's there will be if something is not done to assist parents to access medical care and help children get better medical treatment.
Todd W.
Libel? Do you not read? I said... IF. I never said that he is. So please read better for your sake.
Holographic @295:
Also, do you work with Orac? You claim you have the transcript? Interesting, very interesting. Maybe Ren will research who you are and call and report you as well to your employer.
Holographic @296:
herr doktor bimler
Dollars to doughnuts? What the heck is that?
Your queries address part of my comment #288 which is shown in italic letters (that's the leany-over kind), because it is quoted. Specifically, it is quoted from Ren's comment #285, all of three comments before mine.
The transcript to which he refers is not some arcane hard-to-access document, but is displayed at Orac's subsequent post. Nevertheless, I am sure that Ren will enjoy researching himself and reporting himself to his employer.
I must refer you to Ren for an explanation of his donut / doughnut joke.
Tell us about the options that were offered to her. Be specific, because you apparently know a great deal about them. Enlighten us.
I only learned about this whole sordid affair after Alex was killed.
And what did you do? You seem very well-versed in the case. And if, like most of us, you didn't know about it until it was too late, then why are you making excuses for Alex's killers?
Holographic you're back and changed your tune. You're a filthy mouthed ignorant woman...yes I do believe you were the woman who left that message at Orac's place of employment, in order to get him fired.
You did not just wander on to this blog; you came here to defend the indefensible behavior of Jill Rubolino, who was part of the "biomedical meddlers group", which interfered with the care of Alex in the hospital, which advised the murdering mother to refuse a transfer to a childrens' treatment center where Alex could be evaluated and treated with the care he deserved.
Orac is a physician and I am a registered nurse. We both clearly stated that the disgusting scenes of Alex manacled in 4-point restraints for days on end, naked with just an adult diaper to cover his genitalia, were staged. Aren't you aghast that Alex's privacy was invaded when those scenes appeared on Age of Autism, were placed on YouTube and were shown on CBS TV?
My last comment directed at you, after you gave your opinions about Alex's care was for you to prove to us that you had any credentials.
What college degree do you have?
What professional license do you possess in any health care field?
What work experience do you have in any health care setting?
I'll email Orac my name and address and a link to my State's licensing board, to verify my licensing as a registered nurse. Why don't you email your name and address to Orac so that he can verify that you have a professional license?
I'll be waiting, and so will the rest of the posters here, for you to prove you have the credentials to comment on Alex's medical care.
"So please read better for your sake."
Oh, the irony.
All children in Illinois have access to medical care, just in case you were not aware of the AOK (All Our Kids) program.
Children with ASD do not have access to good health care Shay. You are full of it. Furthermore, this mom was told repeatedly that scoping him for his abdominal pain would be considered experimental and this was denied to him. If they had done the scope, they would have found the issue for themselves and there would have been no reason to involve other parties.
#302 Holographic: Yeah, I'll admit I shouldn't've taken a dig at your grammar, regardless of whether you did that to someone else first. The old "she did it first" argument should be reserved for kindergarteners, and I do apologize for that.
However, your whole "Orac is anonymous" spiel is totally untrue, and now you are fully aware of the truth, so you can stop claiming that he is anonymous. Thank you.
#301 Alain, you write very well, and in many cases, far better than some native English-speakers. You should be proud of your current writing skills, and don't let anyone tell you differently.
Take your own advice, buttercup. I said "treading awful close to libel". I did not say you were committing libel.
Oh, and by the way, institutions can actually do a good job. You see, contrary to your biases, there are places that actually have staff who care about their clients and take good care of them, providing them with a safe place to live, to learn, to flourish. They offer parents a break so they don't reach the point of abusing their children, let alone killing them. So take your "dumping grounds" comment and shove it.
All children in Illinois are covered under the AOK program. Alex was seen in a large urban trauma center. You are full of it, because you are claiming that the completely unnecessary and painful procedure his mother demanded with absolutely no proof that it would accomplish anything, was denied.
'If they had done the scope they would have found the issue" -- what issue? His mother killed him, for freak's sake.
"There would have been no reason to involve other parties" - you mean the ghouls who were encouraging his mother in her pursuit of voodoo? So you admit that bunch should have butted the hell out?
Lilady,
I don't have to prove a damn thing to you. Furthermore, it would not surprise me if you weren't a registered nurse in the style of Nurse Ratchet. Children's treatment facility? You mean like an institution where they drug children and use them as guinea pigs? Lilady, you come on like a tough one, but you are the filthy mouthed ignoramus. I did not come on here to defend Jill Rubolino. I came here to defend what you are doing against Alex and against children who desperately need access to medical assistance. For some reason, I get impression that you were one of the nurses assigned to Alex at Gottlieb Loyola and that you are truly pissed at all of us. I heard there were nurses who refused to wear name tags around this mom because they did not want to be reported for their infractions.
Shay,
Have you ever had a colonoscopy? If not you need one because you are so full of it. Painful procedure. Cancer is painful. Diverticulitis is painful. Colitis is painful. IBS is painful. You can die from cancer, diverticulitis and colitis. A scope would not have killed Alex.
H'phic-- performing a painful though necessary and medically recommended procedure on a consenting adult is one thing.
Performing a painful and unnecessary procedure on an autistic teenager is child abuse. You claim a scope would not have killed Alex. Please provide some sort of justification that it would have helped him in any way, shape or form.
If you can't then you are arguing apples and oranges.
Holographic,
You seem to be spouting those stories that Alex and his mother were homeless, moving from motel to motel. Where did you read that?
#320 I *have* heard of doctors unethically experimenting on children, with such procedures as colonoscopies and lumbar punctures: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/glenn-d-braunstein-md/andrew-wakefields-v…
Oh, and I'll echo the question that has been posed already -- what, exactly, did YOU do to help Alex?
@Holographic
Some reading material on colonoscopies for you.
And Holographic, a scope did not kill Alex. His mother killed Alex. Krigsman did a scope, BUT DID NOT HELP ALEX. Why not?
By the bye, with a colonoscopy, there is a risk of perforation, which can lead to death.
I did what I could and I don't have to tell you what I did. But you did nothing. I never said a scope killed Alex. Duh, who doesn't know his mother killed him. What is your point? You are circling and not getting to any real point. Krigsman did a scope and apparently it was being arranged for Alex to get treatment, but in the interim, no one would rent to the mom. I am not on here to defend Krigsman, never met him and do not know him.
I am not defending Alex's mom either. I am defending Alex's right to appropriate medical care and quite frankly, his right to compassion and nurturing from the mainstream medical establishment. Since when is it a crime for mainstream physicians to want to help? They aren't allowed to because of the insurance industry. My personal belief is that if the insurance industry were not controlling medicine, doctors would do more to treat the medical conditions facing many of the children with ASD.
Todd W.
Then if you really think that, then lets allow all those with tumors in their colon to die...Yes for that matter, let's not do endoscopies either or pap smears.
How freaking ridiculous!
@Holographic
You said a scope would not have killed Alex. I've shown that the possibility, though rare, was there.
Also, who here is saying that autistic kids do not have a right to appropriate medical care? No one. Alex had a right to appropriate medical care. And it was reportedly offered, but declined by his mother.
No, he was offered psychiatric care, not medical care.
Loyola refused medical care. They were drugging him.
Holographic,
Don't be silly. Someone did rent to the Mum. She had an apartment, which apparently she had occupied for some time. That's where Alex died.
Are you really saying that Alex died because, in your opinion, the mother couldn't rent an apartment? Somehow this prevented Krigsman from treating Alex? Alex's plight was so big a deal to Wakefield that he could afford to fly from Texas to be professionally filmed by Alex's bedside, and yet he couldn't be bothered to shell out for some treatment? How much did Wakefield' hotel room cost during that trip?
"I am defending Alex’s right to appropriate medical care and quite frankly, his right to compassion and nurturing from the mainstream medical establishment."
You keep repeating over and over that Alex was denied appropriate medical care and have, as yet, offered no proof. Are we to accept your statements without supporting documentation?
You also believe that you have the right to accuse the posters here of refusing to help Alex, but won't answer that criticism when it is leveled at you. Why not?
No, I am saying that the mom was forced to live in the apartment she was in with him above the store front because no one would rent to her in a place that had some property for Alex to have freedom and movement, fresh air, exercise. There were many factors which led to this mom to become desperate. I am not condoning what she did. I am angry about what she did. What I am saying is that Alex was forced to live in a small apartment caged up. In the hospital he was in restraints. In the apartment, he was confined and in restraints. Perhaps she lost her mind witnessing his confinement and also hers. I am not a psychiatrist, nor will I defend her actions. This is not about Wakefield. Why should he have had to go to Chicago. Why didn't the facility in Chicago do the procedure first? I don't care how much he spent on his hotel room. Do you want him to sleep in the gutter somewhere. He doesn't have the right to rent a hotel room? What's your point?
You play a mean game of dodgeball, H'phic.
I did what I could and I don’t have to tell you what I did
Rule 1332a: Holographic can question anyone else's qualifications.
Rule 1332b: Holographic's qualifications are personal private business and cannot be questioned.
Rule 1333a: Holographic can ask what anyone else did to help the Spourdalakis family when it was the focus of AoA concern.
Rule 1333b: Noone can ask what Holographic did to help the Spourdalakis family.
I LOVE Calvinball.
Because you are all attacking those innocent parents that did try to help, therefore you did not help and are not helping. You are waging a war against innocent parents and children.
Which innocent parents?
What help did they offer?
If you don't, Hol, you have no credibility.
Let me ask you to stop and think about your behavior, for a second. What, exactly, are you trying to accomplish here?
You claim "I came here to defend what you are doing against Alex and against children who desperately need access to medical assistance." (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that when you said "defend" you actually meant "oppose".)
But why? What do you hope to accomplish?
Is it to change our minds? To convince us that your views are more correct than ours? Well, why would we be convinced by anything other than you providing evidence for your own claims?
All you're doing, when you come here and make wild claims without a shred of proof, is to waste our time and make your biomed fanatic crowd look like the fools they are.
What specific medical care was refused on what date, and what was the diagnosis that indicated the denied procedure(s) was required?
Holographic,
Here is a post from the FB page "Help Support Alex Spourdalakis".
Help Support Alex Spourdalakis
May 8
Just a quick update since folks have been asking: Alex is doing very well and is receiving the medical treatment he needs. When we have more specifics to share, we will happily post it here. Thanks as always for your concern, warm wishes and for supporting Alex and Dorothy throughout this whole process!
Next post was on May 27, with the video of Wakefield at Alex's bedside.
Next post was June 10, reporting the murder of Alex.
That remains to be seen. Ya know, I'm quite sure that Alex getting brutally murdered by his mother is very embarrassing for all of you exploiting him for your own gain but don't project. No here is using Alex to go after Wakefield; your lot used Alex up and then spit him out. Wakefield is plenty good at leaving a wake of despair behind him; "we" don't need to "use" anyone to point that out.
Oh goody, a statement of fact from you. Prove it.
Oh so Wakefield was there dispensing medical advice. You are definitely not a physician so why does your opinion about what Alex should or shouldn't receive even matter? Unless you are prepared to pony up your credentials and involvement then I suggest you shut it now. You don't get to have it both ways.
Autism is Medical right? Well how darned sweet of you to be so concerned with the little children that we are purportedly denying your voodoo via the internets no less.
You are so full of $hite holograph it's beyond despicable what you are doing and have done. You're nothing more than just another ignorant biomeddling mummy pretending she can play in the big leagues. Well what did you do for Alex? His mother was offered help from numerous sources like DCFS, the hospital's offer for psychiatric placement and the Illinois Autism Society; all she wanted was a damn lawyer. You claim he would have been drugged and "experimented on" if institutionalised of course the alternative being that he was better off dead. And what? It's okay for you freaks to experiment on autists and treat them like guinea pigs with your chelation, off-label drugs, secretin, chemical castration and bleach enemas?
There are very conflicting accounts about Alex's behaviour and treatment so don't act so indignant that a bunch of grandstanding, whinging, opportunists like yourself aren't being taken very seriously.
Broken Link,
So perhaps things became hectic and they could not update on the specifics.
She needed a place with a yard for Alex and no one would rent to her. After Alex was released, they ended up in the apartment above the store front. What is your point? Are you accusing Dr. Wakefield and the others who helped him of being complicit in his murder? OMG! You think that they all staged a mercy killing of Alex! Are you insane?!!! OMG, I am now sick to my stomach!
No, I am certainly not claiming that Wakefield staged a mercy killing. I am saying that Wakefield and Krigsman have for years stated that they know how to treat bowel disease in autistic children, and that this treatment will make them less autistic. WHY DID KRIGSMAN NOT TREAT ALEX? If they were so sure of themselves?
Because he didn't have a yard to run around in?
Science mom,
You and your cronies are of the opinion that I have to prove something to you. I don't have to prove a damn thing to anyone, including you. You animal, you just said it. She was offered psychiatric treatment? Was Alex mentally ill? NO!!!
"His mother was offered help from numerous sources like DCFS, the hospital’s offer for psychiatric placement and the Illinois Autism Society; all she wanted was a damn lawyer." Yes, she wanted a lawyer to advocate for his right to MEDICAL treatment.
So it is you who is beyond despicable because you believe these kids should be locked away like animals. You really make me sick with your arrogance and cruelty toward these children. But don't worry. The universe and its grand plan is going to have a special hell for people like you who seem to hat e children with Autism.
H'phic: you again dance in, toss accusations, ignore questions, and dance out.
Why?
Broken Link,
One has nothing to do with the other. Ask Krigsman. I don't know him and I am going out on a limb here and assuming neither do you.
The backyard is what Alex needed in order to use his energy constructively playing outdoors. One has nothing to do with the other.
Oh, and for the record...
I don't seek treatment "via the internets" I seek treatment from licensed physicians. Thank you for caring though.
What a load of bollocks; Dorothy reported all was well and Alex receiving appropriate medical care before Wakefield went there.
More bollocks; they lived there for twenty years.
You're just not too bright and very prone to histrionics aren't you? That's not the point at all; please read for comprehension.
OMG I am now sick to my stomach!
Squirrel!
@ holographic,
I most certainly care, as he was soliciting others for money. As Broken Link pointed out, the internet hides nothing. And as many others have pointed out, something happened between 5/8 and 5/27, during which time a known fraud appeared to star in a video. Then 6/10, Alex was brutally murdered. There is significant disconnect, and while you seem to know a fair amount about the situation, you are refusing to answer the most important question: what *medically indicated* treatment was refused? And if Dr. K was able to find those lesions, what happened that he did not provide medically indicated care? Intestinal lesions aren't a joke...if there documentation is there, it will be investigated. What were these "lesions?" An "endoscopy" indicates small intestine or stomach, and "lesions" is a pretty vague term...polyps, dysplasia, plaques, sores, ulcers, a mucosal barrier injury from being immunocompromised, an infection? Was a biopsy done? A culture? What his nutritional status? Was he anemic? Was pain his only symptom? I'm no where near being a doctor, and these are the questions that pop into my head when I hear "endoscopy" and "lesions." A LICENSED physician would have many more, and many differentials to work out from "gastric pain." Were CTs done? Why was Krieg-whoever unable facilitate treatment of these "lesions?" What was the appropriate medically indicated treatment?
This is what we want to know. Please, enlighten us.
Regardless, a mother still murdered her child, and deserves no sympathy. The onus is on them to show HOW she was driven to such cruelty, if that's the disgusting game they want to play.
Science Mom...
You just proved my point. No one would rent to her and she ended up back in that apartment. What the hell is your point? My point is that because of Alex's issues, people did not want to rent to her. Do you have a problem with that truth? I've heard of people actually trying to force co-op boards to throw out ASD families because of the behaviors. It's not nice, but it's a sad reality for these families and it is very stressful. Again, you are proving to be heartless and insensitive toward this boy's needs.
Oh I see; it's fine for his mother to restrain him but suddenly becomes an issue when he is restrained in the hospital.
You're pretty thick aren't you? You most certainly do have something to prove as you are claiming insider status and also knowledge of medical symptoms and diagnoses. As I said, you don't get to have it both ways; put up or shut up.
Oooo strawman arguments and karmic threats of eternal damnation. Sweetie you're out of your league.
"I don’t have to prove a damn thing to anyone"
Don't worry; you're not.
Lilady,
"I don’t have to prove a damn thing to you. Furthermore, it would not surprise me if you weren’t a registered nurse in the style of Nurse Ratchet."
I asked you to prove it to Orac by ponying up your credentials that you are basing your "opinions on"
"Children’s treatment facility? You mean like an institution where they drug children and use them as guinea pigs?"
I've been in childrens' treatment facilities...many of them. Have you?
"Lilady, you come on like a tough one, but you are the filthy mouthed ignoramus."
See the filthy-mouthed remarks and the libelous statements you made about me upthread.
" I did not come on here to defend Jill Rubolino."
Yes you did come on here to defend Jill Rubolino...see all the comments you made defending her, upthread.
"I came here to defend what you are doing against Alex and against children who desperately need access to medical assistance."
What have you ever done for children like Alex? What is your history of advocacy on behalf of developmentally disabled children and adults? I'll match my advocacy activities on behalf of my developmentally disabled child and other developmentally disabled children and adults against your sit-on-your-hands type of advocacy.
" For some reason, I get impression that you were one of the nurses assigned to Alex at Gottlieb Loyola and that you are truly pissed at all of us."
Your impression is wrong. I am a retired public health nurse clinician-epidemiologist, who never worked in Chicago.
" I heard there were nurses who refused to wear name tags around this mom because they did not want to be reported for their infractions."
Really? You've got a lot of inside information about Alex's hospitalization. Could you ask Jill Rubolino or Lisa Goes who drove the car 26 hours both ways to deliver Alex into the hands of Dr. Arthur Krigsman?
Your faux concern for Alex's welfare while he lived and after he was murdered is duly noted. Your lack of concern for the vile videotape showing this child in a staged setting on AoA, on YouTube and on CBS TV is an abomination.
You're just a filthy mouthed vile person.
An observing party, I don't know why, but you are of the opinion that I am giving the mom sympathy. No I am not. I am giving Alex sympathy. You ask Dr. K. I don't know him.
Lilady and you are unhinged and dangerous. I feel sorry for your patients.
Lilady,
None of the statements you posted mention my support of Jill Rubolino. Not one.
Lilady, yes, I was defending myself against a certifiably dangerous individual who desperately needs mandated anger management classes. That would be you.
lilady,
"What have you ever done for children like Alex? What is your history of advocacy on behalf of developmentally disabled children and adults? I’ll match my advocacy activities on behalf of my developmentally disabled child and other developmentally disabled children and adults against your sit-on-your-hands type of advocacy."
Again, what I have is none of your business. Little girls compete, real women empower. You are a little girl trapped inside the body of a no lady.
H'phic please refer to your post at @#156.
You seem to have a very short memory.
You ask Dr. K. I don’t know him
If you don't know Wakefield and Krigsman, why are you arguing? you don't know them yet you make argument in favor of bowel problem at face value without considering the history of such a diagnose; thus your conclusions rest on absolutely nothing. Please get acquainted with Wakefield and Krigsman before spouting more ignorance on here.
Alain
@ holographic,
Even if that were so, I want to know why you are so sure a known liar/fraud is telling the truth about how Alex never received proper treatment. He hasn't set precedent. If you are going to come here arguing on that poor child's behalf, don't do it in the name of a group looking to absolve his mother who is led by a man known for cooking medical records to fit his agenda. Alex deserves the truth being known, just as he deserved the correct medical treatment. We want to know what that was, but no one claiming he didn't receive it can tell us the details. The doctors at those hospitals are bound by HIPAA. For now.
No actually the only thing that seems rather evident here is that you can't tell the truth and try to BS your way out of it. You said this:
That has the very specific connotation that she went to that apartment only upon leaving the hospital. But she was there for over twenty years and suddenly needed a yard and this was a factor in Alex's death? More apologist crap.
Absolutely not but you have yet to grace me with any.
Squirrel!
Oh sure, objecting to the exploitation of a special needs child by a pack of vultures in need of validation and a new angle to peddle and objecting to the murder of Alex Spourdalakis by his mother who would rather see her son dead than taken care of by others or in a facility sure is heartless.
An Observing Party,
Who do you think told me about Alex and his lack of proper treatment? Enlighten me because I don't recall ever identifying who specifically informed me of what happened. I never did anything in defense of anyone but Alex. How you choose to interpret information is your issue and not mine. You are creating stories and living through those stories. You don't know my thoughts and can't read my mind. Making up stories about others is dangerous. You can end up ruining your life based on those stories.
"Making up stories about others is dangerous. You can end up ruining your life based on those stories."
Hello, pot.
Science Mom,
His pain was worsening and so was his behavior, therefore she needed more space. When children with ASD are very small they can live in apartments. But Alex was a big boy and needed more space. WTF is your problem that you don't get that? You keep harping on the same ridiculous point and are going nowhere fast. Children who are as big as Alex with his set of unique issues cannot be confined to small apartments or small rooms in hospitals. Furthermore, every child needs exercise and the ability to be outdoors. It's called a healthy lifestyle. Maybe you don't like exercise, but Alex liked running. He needed it. So stop your nonsense.
@ Holographic
You have repeatedly stated that he was denied proper care and was going to be drugged instead of treated, locked away in an institution. There is only one group claiming that. I would go through and quote each time you said that, but we've all read it, and we all know who is making these claims. So either you are in the know, or you are jumping to the conclusion that what this group has stated is fact.
I know of individuals who've ruined lives by making up stories...
Shay,
I don't ruin my life because I am not making up stories about you or anyone and living through those stories. You are all living through this bogus loathing you have for Wakefield. So...continue to ruin your life. Not my problem.
An Observing Party,
Those facts are known by many because if memory serves they have been all over the news. However, some choose to deny those facts.
As far as what goes on in psychiatric hospitals for those children with ASD, i know because I am close to those who have worked in those types of facilities and describe the horrors that go on. So, once again, I will say, my concern was Alex and his well being, but never will I condone what Dorothy did.
@ holographic,
"News" being a "documentary" made by a party with known conflicts.
You know what's nice about the comments? You can't edit. And even without speaking, it's obvious that you stepped in it and are furiously trying to get it off. You lied. Period.
They lived there for twenty years, not just landed in some hole for want of no place like you implied. But the former doesn't make for some good drama does it?
"I don’t ruin my life because I am not making up stories about you or anyone "
Except for all but a handful of your posts. Start at #156, and work your way up to #371.
Science Mom
She was also married and had the assistance of her husband, which she no longer had because of divorce. Again, you keep harping on this point because you have no other point to latch on to create a story in your head. I did not lie. She ended up there because she had no where else to go.
AnObservingParty
By news, I mean major network news. You do realize that this was reported on in different states?
Shay,
Again, you all want to live trying to ruin people you don't know. What I would be interested in knowing is what's in it for you? What have you been promised? I hope its more than minimum wage.
Do you want to blame Wakefield and Krigsman for this one too.
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2013/09/teen_with_autism_…
Damn straight I'm going to keep harping on it to watch you squirm. She didn't "end up there"; she had been living there for twenty years. Her husband lived in a different apartment but he still assisted her. You are fabricating stories to paint Ms. Spourdalakis in a more sympathetic light.
I am not painting her in a sympathetic light. Did you bother to read the link above?
What part about desperate don't you get? These parents and children are being treated like outcasts by schools, mainstream medicine and even by their own families.
The fact that some of you here have autism think that everyone has to live by your standard, FU. Do you care about the more severe cases? Nope. You care about your own self serving situations. Yes, Oh...thank the creator or tidybowl man...whoever you give praise to that you can speak and work and defend yourselves. What about Alex? At what point do you all think that Alex deserved a chance to thrive like the rest of you? You are so selfish that it is sickening.
I am not painting her in a sympathetic light. Did you bother to read the link above?
What part about desperate don't you get? These parents and children are being treated like outcasts by schools, mainstream medicine and even by their own families.
The fact that some of you here have autism think that everyone has to live by your standard, FU. Do you care about the more severe cases? Nope. You care about your own self serving situations. Yes, Oh...thank the creator or tidybowl man...whoever you give praise to that you can speak and work and defend yourselves. What about Alex? At what point do you all think that Alex deserved a chance to thrive like the rest of you? You are so selfish that it is sickening.
H'phic: I've asked you 2x now, who are we targeting, and how? Why are you so coy about specifics?
@ Shay: The filthy-mouthed Holographic posted at me at #156 plus three more times in rapid succession. Check out the time stamps; she was posting throughout the night. How about her libelous cyber-stalking and obsessive behaviors directed at a random stranger on the internet?
You want to watch me squirm? Never gonna happen.
But what is gonna happen if you keep this up? Bad Karma for you.
So keep it up. What you reap, you sow.
lilady...
blah, blah, blah. Who cares about what you think.
They were in that apartment well before the Loyola incident that Wakefield and the rest of the halfwit vampires tried to use for their own gain (since 2012, IIRC). We already know that you're not very bright, so the only question here is whether you're a lying sack of shıt as well. Perhaps it's a combination.
Moreover, when Dorothy filed for divorce (February 7), she should have promptly received an order for Minos to provide her with funds commensurate to her previous lifestyle during the pendency of the action. There is no documentation whatever that "nobody would rent to her."
Now, I hate to break this to you, but there aren't a lot of "places with yards" in parts of Cook County that have long been built up (Dorothy's building was 95 years old). Moreover, I've lived in that area. The single-family dwellings are bungalows that offer little by way of the pastoral fantasy that has been dragged out from the get-go by the creep brigade.
A quick look at Google Maps reveals that there was a fair amount of green space available, including two cemetaries immediately to the north and a good chunk of Park District forest preserve a mile to the south. But apparently, what was requisite was some sort of private green space. Control again. If I can't have him, nobody can. Just like the cat.
You have already put in a very strong effort cultivating the appearance of not knowing the law from a hole in the ground. So here's your chance: Cite the precise sections of the Illinois Compiled Statues to which you refer. After that, you can enlighten everyone as to your opinion about the legal nuances surrounding taking a minor child to a secret location during the pendency of a divorce, as well as that of leaving the state.
I've been too busy admiring his/her/its footwork. Matt Forte can't juke that quickly or that often.
The fact that some of you here have autism think that everyone has to live by your standard, FU. Do you care about the more severe cases? Nope.
That, I don't let it go, get the f*ck out of here and tell me straight to my face that I don't care about other autistics. I can even install skype on my computer so you have an occasion to tell me face to face. Do tell me that I don't care about autistics and I'll show you a dozen peoples how much I have taken care of the autistics I know regardless of what situation they get in.
Do you actually want me to be your own worst nightmare?
Alain
^ Only 90 years old, on a double-check.
@lilady -- #386 was for you, btw.
Blah blah...
You don't care. Plain and simple. If you did, you would be doing more productive things with your lives.
We are not the ones posting several times a minute at night.
Alain, don't let it get to you. Holo's either a lunatic and a fanatic, or it's a troll. (I'm guessing the latter; note that it doesn't respond to any mockery or comment that it can't twist to the stupidest possible interpretation. Classic troll behavior.)
Either way, the best thing to do is to deconstruct and refute its claims and move on -- it won't respond to any arguments in any meaningful way, it won't make any salient points and it damn sure won't convince anyone outside of its twisted little choir.
You know you're awesome, I think you're awesome and I'm sure at least half a dozen other folks think so too.
So sad...
You people make absolutely no sense, especially you lilady.
"I’ve been too busy admiring his/her/its footwork. Matt Forte can’t juke that quickly or that often."
Whoa..and I don't even make the 800,000 smackers he earns.
"Either way, the best thing to do is to deconstruct and refute its claims and move on — it won’t respond to any arguments in any meaningful way, it won’t make any salient points and it damn sure won’t convince anyone outside of its twisted little choir."
Of course not, why would my comments mean anything to you? You appear to be void of any feelings. No one can make a salient point that you will accept other than your own. You aren't capable of understanding anyone else's points. Yes, please all of you keep deconstructing. You make me feel so important and in control of all of you that way. <3
"Either way, the best thing to do is to deconstruct and refute its claims and move on — it won’t respond to any arguments in any meaningful way, it won’t make any salient points and it damn sure won’t convince anyone outside of its twisted little choir."
Of course not, why would my comments mean anything to you? You appear to be void of any feelings. No one can make a salient point that you will accept other than your own. You aren't capable of understanding anyone else's points. Yes, please all of you keep deconstructing. You make me feel so important and in control of all of you that way. <3
@Mewens
Yep, I guess I shouldn't turn into a monster and drop to the level of yourworstnightmare / holographic.
Alain
Just to clear things up about my research area, I am a developmental biologist who focuses on sex-differentiated development in vertebrates, which has included the brain, the gonads, and penile and clitoral development. Keywords are endocrinology, endocrine disruption, toxicology, sex determination and differentiation, physiology, and development. As entertaining as it would be to focus solely on the "male anatomy," that's not an appropriate description, and anatomy is not my field.
I appreciate the comments over on the Forbes post; there are things that commenters are free to say that I would do best to leave to them.
Thanks for demonstrating that you don't understand what karma is, either.
@ Emily Willingham,
Does your thesis is posted somewhere? I'd like to get better acquainted with endocrinology.
Thanks
Alain
You're awesome Alain. :-)
Mewens: You're correct. Just another filthy-mouthed, ignorant attention-seeking troll. Best to just ignore her.
Now this is hilarious. EW is now on board...Bwahahahaha. Priceless.
Now I really feel in control of all of you. You have even shown yourselves as delusional.
We've read your bio...not impressed. Don't care. You are still no Autism expert.
Hi Emily: Your posts are superb. I'm glad you left some things for us to say.
I guess I'll make that determination for myself based on my track record of expertise rather than taking the word of some random online pseud who can't even discern anatomy from physiology. But thanks for offering your opinion. If that makes you bwahahahaha about control in an online forum, you are a sad, strange little person (or, given your "we have read" comment, *persons*), and you have my pity.
@Alain .... all of the work from my dissertation has been published as separate papers.
@lilady ... thanks. The comments are as revelatory as anything I write.
"We’ve read your bio…not impressed. Don’t care. You are still no Autism expert."
Says the poster who steadfastly refuses to offer any credentials whatsoever.
@ Emily Willingham,
Ok, I shall hit pubmed tomorrow (it's getting late and I need painkillers) to read your papers.
@ Everyone else except Holographic,
It seem Holographic is getting a high from "controlling" all of us. How about we don't care about him / her and we keep our good work on complaining at CBS News; it is having an effect :)
Alain
@ Emily Willingham,
That came out wrong, I don't need painkiller to read your papers but instead, for my suture wound around the navel (had surgery for a ruptured appendix last month). I will read your paper with lot of interest.
Alain
Krigsman is that guy who claimed to have found a new bowel disease, and when the managers of his hospital asked to see children's charts, Krigsman ran from the hospital - Lennox Hill.
You would think that any honest doctor would say: 'Great that you're interested in my work, the charts are over there, turn the lights out when you're done'.
Not Krigsman, he sued the hospital, packed up and left. The details are online somewhere.
Ok, I know this comment was posted way back, but I have to interject.
Holographic @320:
Funnily enough, I've been reading "One flew over the cuckoo's nest" recently. The narrator is Chief Bromden, who is an unreliable narrator. In fact, the phrase "But it's the truth, even if it never happened" is part of his narration.
Accusing lilady of being like Nurse Ratchet is very silly, all things considered.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2407771/How-Dorothy-Spourdalaki…
EW, takes a strange person to recognize one. Your track record has nothing to do with expertise. Get real, it's not what you're known for.
Julian Assange David Frost
Good to know you are reading. You wouldn't want to be confused as Sarah Palin's kin.
and as for EW, you are a writer, but many see you as a blogger...that's your track record.
I am writing my own blog post about Attkisson's report. Could someone please guide me to a comment on this thread or a blog post debunking the endoscopy image seen in the piece?
Quoth Holographic,
So -- during the twenty years they were living in that apartment (which would span Alex's entire short life), Alex was able to run around enough to demonstrate that he liked it. But still he was murdered because the apartment didn't have a yard for him.
I see.
411 comments and not one explaining exactly what medical treatments were denied and how it was deduced what proper medical care was needed even though the phrase or variations thereof "denied the proper medical care" keeps popping up.
Aww, was that an attempt at an insult? You're adorable.
Wrysmile @ 413:
That's because the only "proper" medical care they will accept is to be told autism is a "disease" (or dis-ease?) that can be "medically" "treated" or "cured". The fact that autism is an inborn difference in the way the brain is wired will never be accepted by this contingent of loonies.
Hey, Holographic: Autism is NOT "Medical"!
Narad:
so the only question here is whether you’re a lying sack of shıt as well.
After coming here from AoA to support Rubolino and commenting for a day or two under a couple of sockpuppet identities, Holographic suddenly decided that it was politic to disavow all knowledge of Orac's name and day job. "OMFSM, who is this anonymous person whose blog I have been commenting at anonymously?!"
The evidence points to the LSoS theory.
Actually investigating Illinois' developmental disabilities system appears to be yet another item that Holographic eschewed in favor of making things up to incoherently rant about.
Holographic:
I don’t have to prove a damn thing to you.
True, but I wish you would try. It is more entertaining that way.
Don’t care. You are still no Autism expert.
I wonder who *does* qualify as an Autism expert in Holographic's world. Apparently not Alain, despite his research record. Is Laura Wing an expert? Uta Frith? Fombonne? Courchesne?
If someone's degrees included developmental psych. training and they had published on AS, would they count as an autism expert? AFAF.
It does seem that Holo is just going down some transcript prepared by the folks at AoA, parroting every single "party line" despite being shown that the vast majority of those "facts" are nothing but fabrications or "lies by omission" - like the "she was homeless & no one would rent to her - Alex & her were forced to move around" which is now shown to be a lie - as she lived in the same apartment for 20 years.
Again, if Alex was being treated by Dr. Krigsman after his discharge from the hospital - in the manner in which is Mother wanted, why did she kill him?
Better yet, if Dr. Krigsman did in fact treat him, why doesn't he release the medical records and scoping results that would "prove" Alex's condition?
I have the utmost sympathy for Alex, who, by all other accounts (by his own family) was a loving boy who had an interest in music and was a joy to be around, but now seems to have been subjected to some kind of twisted MbP by his Mother in an attempt to gain sympathy after her divorce from her husband....
This isn't a medical discussion, this is about a group of rabid anti-vaxxers who played the game with an unstable mother & when she no longer received the kind of attention she wanted from them, she killed her son in an attempt to get back in the limelight.
That makes a heck of a lot more sense than the drivel the folks at AoA have been pushing (and pushing it because it is an attempt to get themselves off the hook for being somewhat responsible, if not mostly responsible for getting this mother into a situation where she felt killing her child was justified).
Sickos.....
Lillady is right...time to ignore the holographic lying cowardly troll and make fun of it. This one is priceless full of p^ss and venom and no logic to back its ridiculous assertions. More fun than a barrel full of thingys :)
Lilady, and others in the American medical system, can you tell me something? In Canada (well at least Ontario) the family of a patient have to sign an agreement to have their loved one in restraints. Is this not the case in the U.S.? To me, this is important for all to understand because if Alex's mother did indeed agree to the restraints, then why is it being touted as an instance of hospital abuse?
Agashem,
I'm not an expert in this, but it seems to me that Alex was not "committed", and that his treatment options were under the control of his mother. If she objected to the restraints, why did she not take him home?
You are trying to disseminate the AoA lie that they had no place to live when it is obvious that is false. I guess I can say that you added your own embellishment to this lie with the whole yard thing.
And you know what? You have dozens of comments you made under 2 'nyms that have been nothing but attacks on people here, desperate defences of vampires like Wakefield and Rubolino along with demonstrating your ignorance on a variety of topics including how the internets work. You people used and exploited Alex; he was supposed to be your biomed poster child for Wakefield's venture into reality TV but then something went horribly wrong and you went into CYA mode.
Don't you dare feign concern for Alex and use him as a human shield when either a.) you were actively involved in his exploitation and possibly manipulation of his mother or b.) some pathetic groupie hanger-on trying to co-opt Alex's murder for whatever perverted reason suits you. Every one of your posts reeks of defensive projection.
@Holographic
Let me recap what exactly the issue is from our perspective. First, there is the AoA, AIM and similar groups' rhetoric. In their world, we have this mother who "had to move around a lot", who was "refused help" and was at her wits' end. She was driven to murder her child because of an uncaring system that failed her.
Here is the reality. We have a mother who lived in the same apartment for 20 years. She did not have to move around a lot. She was offered help, but because it wasn't the experimental, unproven quackery she wanted, she refused it. She was encouraged in this by the likes of Lisa Goes, Jill Rubolino and Jeanna Reed. She and her son were used for publicity by Andrew Wakefield as he worked on a new reality TV show. She and Jolanta planned for at least a week to murder Alex, supposedly so he wouldn't have to be treated like an animal. In short, she claims she thought he was better off dead than autistic and out of her control.
The narrative offered by AoA, Sharyl Attkisson and company is what we have a problem with. That narrative tries to create sympathy for Dorothy and Jolanta ("Oh, he was so difficult to manage", "She was helpless", "The system failed her"). They are excuses for what she did. We think that is disgusting and inexcusable. The narrative we're hearing from AoA and expounded upon by credulous media include errors of fact and errors by omission. We believe that to be sloppy reporting.
It does not really matter what the conditions were. Nothing excuses Dorothy and Jolanta murdering Alex. Every day, individuals with disabilities are the victims of violence and abuse. Far too often, the media portrayals of these incidents sympathize with the abuser. We want to change that culture. We are aware that better services and support are needed for parents who cannot cope on their own, but lack of services (or in Alex's case, a perceived lack of services) is no excuse.
Am I clear? Do you get it now? Or are you still going to rant on, calling us names, questioning our backgrounds and credentials while clamming up about your own?
Nope. I'm not the one that's been beating a dead horse for several hours now, based on the comments. I'm in school, learning stuff so I know what I'm talking about. What's your educational background, Holo?
I'm sorry, but where did this notion come from? There are four apartments in that ~3200 square foot parcel. Given that Minos has what appears to be a reasonably successful business, it seems pretty unlikely that the three (or four) of them had been living there. I'm still trying to find the police interview that suggests Dorothy moved in there late last year.
I have been reading this thread with a growing sense of disbelief.
Firstly I'm amazed that Holographic is apparently incapable of clicking on Orac's name at the top of the page s/he is commenting on which is a link to a page that explains exactly who Orac is, and complaining he is anonymous.
Secondly, Holographic appears to be arguing that because:
1. Conventional doctors refused to diagnose a bowel disorder, presumably because there was no evidence for such a diagnosis and
2. Conventional doctors refused to sanction dangerous, ineffective and/or unproven biomedical quack treatments (which Holographic is, in my opinion, deluded in calling "appropriate medical care") and
3. Alex would have been "drugged and/or experimented with" if he had been taken into care and
4. His mother couldn't rent an apartment with a back yard,
Alex's carers had no choice but to kill him.
Is this an accurate summary of what Holographic has written here?
I'm also appalled that Holographic also apparently thinks that objecting to the abuse of autistic children with the kind of horrible biomedical quackery we know is promoted at places like AoA (such as chlorine dioxide enemas, chemical castration, unnecessary colonoscopies and lumbar punctures), is "facilitating the neglect of children’ medical issues".
Holographic, you may spend most of your time on planet AoA, but here in the real world where the vast majority of people live, your position is considered dangerous lunacy.
You have joined the lunatic fringe and now you are railing against the sane for not joining you. I would write you off as a gullible fool who has been taken in by AoA misinformation, but for the obnoxious bile you have written here. I'm truly disgusted with your behavior. I thought my opinion of AoA and its acolytes could sink no lower, but I was wrong.
"I don’t have to prove a damn thing to you."
Might make you look a bit less stupid if you tried it, though...
The main sections of Illinois law on this are 210 ILCS 85/6.20, 210 ILCS 45/2-106, and 405 ILCS 5/2-107 (goo.gl/lIlhje). The latter two contain the consent provisions.
@Narad
Sorry, I saw someone else mention they had been living there for a period of time.
@Broken Link and ScienceMom
What source did you have for how long they lived at that address?
http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/video?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&…
Holographic, read what Mark said at 428. You don't have to prove anything, but if you don't even try, you really can't complain when people don't believe you and write you off as a crank.
Kreboizen, I want to add to this:
A few years ago, I read an interview with a Somali widow who had emigrated to America with her infant son, who later was diagnosed with severe autism. She is one of the Somali parents who listened to Wakefield; the article was about the fury in the local Somali community in Minneapolis after a measles outbreak that followed his encouragement to skip that particular vaccine. Somalis are not actually stupid*, so they quickly realized that Wakefield had led them down a dangerous path. Several of their children had been hospitalized for measles by that time. If Wakefield comes back to speak to them again, he might need a bodyguard.
Anyway, this woman was raising her severely autistic son with the help of her sister, another refugee. In many respects, their situation was very similar to that of Spourdalakis, but for one crucial distinction: they weren't complaining about it. Part of that is also cultural; these women have endured such severe hardship already in life, far beyond what the average American can conceive, and even with this burden, their lives are much better than they were. They are no longer in fear of their lives every time they poke their heads out a door. And they have support and assistance, from the local Muslim community and also from the school district. They do lament that they have not been able to get a house with a yard; they cannot afford it with the boy's medical expenses, even with MinnesotaCare covering a lot of them, since the boy cannot go into a normal daycare while they work. But their concern wasn't about now. They had now covered. Their concern was for the future, and who would care for the boy when their aging bodies were no longer up to the task. They didn't have answers, but they were looking.
I have an autistic daughter. She is not severely disabled, but it causes her problems, and I do worry about her future. It is not easy, but life isn't meant to be easy. Our children are our responsibilities, and we must strive to do right by them. What saddens me is when a parent decides their child is their property. Living people are never property. I am quite convinced that Alex's mother killed him not because she was at her wit's end but because she feared losing control over him. It's territorialism, really, and it's happened so many times. The fact that the parents were separated is probably a factor as well, yet somehow the AoA folks never talk about that, because it doesn't serve their narrative of blaming doctors. But how often has it happened? And here, we have the video that clearly admits the boy was going to get residential treatment within 72 hours -- there *was* somewhere to turn, if mom was so overwhelmed, but she abhorred the idea so much that an anonymous donor stepped in so the mom could demonstrate she had means after all. And within a couple of weeks, he was dead. She didn't want him in treatment. She wanted him in her control, and that had been threatened too many times. She had to exert the final act of control over him, by taking his life.
That appalls me. But nothing appalls me more than the people who defend her for it. She didn't kill him because his life was too painful or because she couldn't tolerate things anymore. She killed him because her control over his destiny had been threatened. If it was just about her, she would have given him up to the state. If it was just about him, and she was just too misled to see what the best care would be, she would've had him in Dr Krigman's care (for all the good that would have done). She did neither, so this wasn't about anything but control.
*The Somali culture encourages universal literacy, women moving freely and holding jobs in the community, and secular education -- which is part of the problem right now, as the religious nutjobs who've torn the country apart have different ideas. Hence the huge outpouring of refugees who reject the nutjobs.
OK, here is one source of the 20-year figure:
So I was mistaken, but the size of the place and the number of units comes from the Cook County Assessor.
@ Narad and Todd: http://bangordailynews.com/2013/07/01/news/nation/slaying-of-boy-with-s…
Many outlets reported the same. If the claims of debt are true then it isn't at all inconceivable that the four of them were living in the same apartment.
Argumentum ad Foxum now Holographic? Any point to this you vapid tosspot?
@430.
Todd, a simple white pages search shows that both Dorothy and Minas lived on Grand Ave in River Grove Il.
http://www.whitepages.com/name/Spourdalakis/Chicago-IL
Alex was killed in an apartment on Grand Avenue. The Spourdalakis's filed for divorce in Feb 2013. I think it stands to reason that they lived in that apartment for some time prior to the murder.
Thanks for the confirmation of how long they lived there, folks. I saw the 411/white pages info listing both Minas and Dorothy at that address. Thanks, Narad, for finding the "nearly two decades" info.
So, now we have it documented that they did, indeed, live there for a long time and that Polly Tommey's claim that she "had absolutely nowhere to go, nowhere to live" is false.
@Calli #432
I entirely agree. I have seen the horrendous conditions in which many people have to live in India and Egypt, so I know the apartment in question would be regarded as absolutely luxurious by the majority of the world's population.
I personally live with another adult in an apartment of around 4,000 square feet and have no back yard (though I do have access to one I share with 30-some other apartments). This means I find the idea of being driven to despair through living in an apartment twice that size difficult to grasp. I know my American wife was surprised to find I was living in a shoebox* compared to her house back in the US, but she seems to have adjusted without feeling compelled to murder anyone.
* Many, probably most, Brits live in homes that I guess seem tiny from the perspective of most Americans, like hobbit-holes, but with less light and ventilation.
Krebiozen:
You might want to check your unit conversions. That is actually huge. We have city lots that are under 4000 square feet. Our first house was on a 3000 square foot lot (50' x 60'). The house was 900 square feet, and when we finished most of the basement we got it up to about 1400 square feet.
FWIW, the bankruptcy was in 2005. The only explicit medical bills were for $7547; the rest is an impressive array of mostly personal credit card debt (which of course could include more medical debt). The personal property includes four bedroom sets, so they must have had the entire top floor, County Assessor notwithstanding.
@ Kreb:
Right but you got foxes.
-btw- My two units total about 1200 sq ft- approx 800 & 400.
But posh. Somewhat.
4000 SqFt is almost twice the size of the house I currently live in (and it still feels huge, even with the wife, two kids & two cats).....
More commentary on this sad case:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/09/06/is-sharyl-attkisson-feelin…
IIRC, There is an interview with Dorothy where she stated (paraphrasing) "We need a place...upstate (then out-of-state) so that he can run around" I had the distinct impression that she meant that the three of them (Alex, Dorothy, godmother) would live there together.
I posted on Orac's first blog that I located a local business that was in Dorothy/Minas names. It was a prescription eyeglasses shop. Dorothy worked there as an optometry tech and Minas worked as a manager/clerk there.
Narad, I checked into that link to the divorce case you located and I believe there have been a few motions since Dorothy's arrest.
Lies, lies, lies about Dorothy not bathing for 13 days...she had the godmother there to spell her so that she could take a break, go home, bathe, change her clothing, etc. I'd have thought I died and went to heaven, if I had a full-time live-in caregiver to spell me during my son's frequent hospitalizations. And, yeah, even when my son was in the ICU, I was with him 24/7 until he was put in a regular room, where I could have a recliner or fold-out chair.
Has anyone heard of The Truther Girls? Cripes, how many more biomed groups are out there?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGM4tUV0RB4
Indeed - I meant 400, not 4,000.
Minas seems to pretty much own the Westchester Optical Center. It's an Illinois "close corporation" (or was in 2005 at least), but he's the president and agent. He's an optician. So was Dorothy according to the filing, for The Eyeglass Shop in Oak Park, of which not-in-good-standing corporation she is the president. I believe she worked at Westchester as office manager or something at one point.
They were making $2600/month each, with Minas having additional income of $1200/month from "non-filing spouse," which is opaque to me. The interest in the Westchester business was valued at $0 and claimed to have a negative value, but the debt on the store assets for The Eyeglass Shop survived the Chapter 7
Krebiozen:
Yes, that is small. My first house at 900 square feet is positively spacious compared to that. But, then again, that house was huge compared to my college apartment.
Chris,
I think 400 sounds pretty spacious, my bachelor is probably a bit smaller than that. I'll have to measure it and check it out.
I had 650 square feet in my last apartment, and it felt positively claustrophobic. Fortunately, there was a quasi captain's walk so that I could pace. The previous place was 800, and I haven't measured the new one, but I probably could have hung on to some of the stuff that I discarded in a moving frenzy.
Without giving too many details that would allow antivaxxers to track me to my lair, I live in a large Victorian building converted into apartments. I live on the ground floor in a maisonette, which has a very high ceiling and is open plan and partly split level, so though the floor space is limited, it doesn't feel at all claustrophobic.
I have lived in much smaller places. One room I rented in a house was so small you couldn't completely open the door because the bed was in the way. I was in my 20s and only used it to sleep and fornicate - most of my possessions were parked at my mother's place.
Up until recently I had roommates, lived in a house, but I hated it, so when the lease was up I was happy to move out, even though it meant moving into a very tiny, weird apartment (really weird, it is on the 3rd floor, the top floor, but the bathroom is on the second because there is just no room up here) in an older house here. But hey, it is cheap and I like the neighbourhood. However, I am pretty book heavy, I have three large bookshelves and they are overflowing. Moved here in Aug and I definitely have to find some good storage solutions.
@ Narad: There is no listing for a licensed optician under Spourdalakis in Illinois:
https://www.idfpr.com/LicenseLookUp/LicenseLookup.asp
Although I purchased a very moderate sized double unit several years ago, I'm next door to an outrageously, hilariously huge place ( 50x70?) which is outfitted in Spanish tile floors, marble columns, outsized windows - a young guy inherited it and couldn't afford upkeep so he rents out rooms to a constantly changing cast of ( mostly)youngsters and lives elsewhere: there were young girls from out of town, their boyfriends, girls who sing with djs in clubs, an environmental activist, Chinese art students and NOW two attractive gay men and a North African tattooed hottie -who they appear to drool over. They hang on the balcony and smoke or read amongst the potted plants.
As is expected, the gays find me interesting.
Big 4 and a half with a very friendly russian couple. My share is very cheap at 315$ / month interweb included.
Alain
Seriously? Holo linked to *The Daily MAIL"????? Obviously not familiar with the fact that most people (and almost all Brits) refer to it as "The Daily Fail". It's a tabloid, not a newspaper.
I live in a approx 350 sq ft house. It wouldn't be so bad if it was laid out better.
@ Narad: Here's the listing I found for that shop. Dorothy has ABOC/FNAO after her name...and Minas is listed as the manager.
http://www.bbb.org/chicago/business-reviews/opticians-and-optical-servi…
ABOC= American Board of Opticianry Certifcation
FNAO=Fellow of the National Academy of Opticianry
I don't think there are any licensed opticians in Illinois.
D'oh I Iooked at optometrists...time for me to get some reading specs ?
Way OT, but hey, it's Friday night...
Denice,
That immediately brought back of the Christian Berber women with blue crosses tattooed across their foreheads I saw in Morocco, but I don't imagine that's quite what your neighbors' North African friend is like!
You certainly do live in an interesting location, as do I. I never cease to be surprised by the eccentric but generally wonderful people we run into here. For example...
My wife has become friendly with a young French woman who we often see locally, zipping about the place on a scooter, not a motorized scooter, one that you push along with one foot like a child's, which struck me as odd. She told us that she was singing at a local church, so we went along to listen, not expecting much, and were treated to an extraordinary performance of Mozart, Poulenc, Manuel De Falla and Handel.
It was absolutely breathtaking. It turns out she is a professional singer who has had a career break due to an accident, and is starting out again in small venues.
Another local character I have become friends with is a retired criminal lawyer who used to defend some of the organized criminals who have always frequented this part of East London. As you might imagine, he has some interesting tales to tell.
I recently discovered he is also an excellent pianist, and when, on a visit to his home, he started playing the blues I spontaneously rediscovered my voice, which has, for various reasons, been dormant for a while. We now have plans for a public performance, hopefully including the chanteuse I mentioned above, who has expressed an interest in joining us.
All this from a chance encounter, and common interests in preserving our local history and in gardening.
Despite the horrors that this particular blog post is about, human kindness and creativity is alive and well and living in the most unlikely places.
Tsk, "brought back memories" - it's after 2 in my time zone - time for bed...
Holographic: Furthermore, every child needs exercise and the ability to be outdoors.
I agree. This is why we have things called parks and playgrounds. Or do they not exist in Illinois?
Seriously just stop. Every single author and commenter of Age of Autism screams for eons about how their autistic children aren't their 'real' children. How they're broken and can't ever amount to anything.
They don't care about the pain their autistic children undergo, and now that someone actually took that philosophy to it's logical conclusion, they're trying to turn the sinking ship around.
We won't let them weasel out of this one. Gut disease didn't kill Alex. The doctors at Loyola didn't kill Alex (though I do think they dropped the ball.) Mrs. Spourdalakis and Ms. Skordska killed Alex, and you, all your friends, Dr. Wakefield, and Atkisson are all trying to help them get away with murder.
So, does anyone know if Illinois has playgrounds or parks? Or is it simply one big city? Inquiring for cookies and because I've never been. (And likely will never, given that I'd have to go through Creep Central, a.k.a. Ohio to get there),
I swear one of these days I'm going to read something by PGP where she says "Well, it goes without saying that carbon-based life forms in the Milky Way are all X, because I've met some and there's no question that the ones I met were X..."
@Politicalguineapig #463:
I realize you're making a rhetorical point, but for the record even the most densely populated part of Illinois has plenty of public park space; see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Park_District
It depends on where one is in the city, but, yah, it could be worse. River Grove isn't Chicago, of course, but they had ready access to a hundres of acres of Cook County forest preserve right where they were, and it's about a 30 minute drive to the lakefront. (I can't speculate how well Alex would have done on an equivalent 60–90 minute public transit ride.)
^ Erm, 'a hundres hundreds'. As for this,
,
I'd note that most methods of travel that don't involve sticking out one's thumb by the side of the road or carrying a bindle tied to a stick don't exactly require much interaction with the general populace.
This is completely OT but PGP -- has it ever dawned on you that you live in a prison of your own making?
PGP: yes, Illinois has parks and playgrounds. I'm a bit puzzled that you asked that question in a non-ironic way. Why wouldn't you expect it to have parks and playgrounds?
BTW, my brother's in-laws live in a Chicago suburb, and not far from their place is a truly awesome playground in a city park. It was built with a grant from Ty (the company that makes Beanie Babies), which is headquartered very close by.
I had assumed PGP's question about parks and playgrounds was, in context, a sarcastic dig at Holographic. Her follow-up I assumed was more of the same or an attempt at humor (as in, "Hath not a Jew eyes? hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with
the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? No, seriously - I'm dying to know!"
I'm at a loss to understand her opinion of Ohio.
At least PGP is merely maligning states now, instead of countries or entire continents.
O/T but...
Congratulations are in order for Jake (former *journalist at AoA). He has announced on his blog that he has his MPH...and is furthering his education at U-Texas.
"I am a Ph.D. candidate concentrating in epidemiology at the University of Texas School of Public Health."
Certainly not in the category of a Doctor of Public Health at Johns Hopkins University.
@lilady - so when exactly was he awarded his MPH & what was his thesis on?
Ah, that explains it; I can see the humor in it now, Mephistopheles. In my defense, I'm basically running on coffee today, which has impaired my humor. (Kids had a rough night last night, including a nightmare, a bed wedding incident, and a bad nosebleed. Much Laundry Was Done.)
@ Lawrence...Go see his Autism Investigated blog; he failed to mention what his thesis topic is. :-)
Lilady - Miles Per Hour?
Calli - I think I muffed the punchline - maybe "No, really, I've been a bit out of touch" or "I'm a stranger here" might have been better.
Of course, it's possible that after the initial (deserved) dig, perhaps PGP got to thinking "well, maybe the don't have public parks in Chicago. It could happen; I've not been there."
I recall times I thought I made a snide joke and discovered I'd stated something that was all too (and embarrassingly) true. Just like the time someone said "I'm special" and I replied "like education?"
Guys, it was a joke. Except for the bit about Ohio.
@Politicalguineapig - I live just south of Ohio and I've not seen more people creep than I'd see in any other state.
PGP -- please tell me I'm wrong; are you avoiding an entire state because Ariel Castro lived there?
Perhaps somebody should explain to Jake what this means. In fact, given that they also offer a DrPH, it's possible that might need clarification as well.
Yeah, seriously. I mistakenly called myself a 'PhD candidate' during a talk in my first year and got thoroughly reamed by the faculty afterwards.
Shay: Why not? I've avoided an entire neighborhood and park in my city for years because a gang rape took place in that area.Sure, maybe Castro was a one-off, but statistically, he probably wasn't. And it wasn't just Castro. Heck, the state probably would have let him off the hook if they hadn't been aware that it would lead to bad publicity.
The bot and her flying monkey squad are all over this story. I've posted back at her about Alex's murder:
http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2013/09/autism-0906
Congratulations, PGP. It takes a lot of doing to make the antivax brigade's "There's a whole contingent of officials and scientists out there who actually WANT masses of disabled children" paranoia look reasonable by comparison, but YOU MANAGED IT.
PGP,
Why not? Because you are grossly overgeneralizing from far too little data. You cannot accurately assess risks like this, it's the exact same reasoning we see in the "I survived measles therefore it isn't dangerous" brigade. You will come to a lot of very inaccurate conclusions, will offend people and be accused of being a bigot. You will also very likely put yourself at serious risk if you continue like this - if you walk home alone at night through a neighborhood safely once, that means its safe to do so every night, right?
That's quite apart from the positive experiences you are denying yourself - I bet that park you avoid is lovely - and the misery you are causing yourself by assuming that any negative experience you have had (or read about) can be writ large to apply to entire states, countries or continents as I have seen you do here on several occasions.
Heck, the state probably would have let him off the hook if they hadn’t been aware that it would lead to bad publicity.
There is the corollary that every other state harbours the same proportion of predators and is just doing a better job of hushing them up. Have you thought this through?
Avoiding the state of Ohio because of Ariel Castro is not like avoiding the local park because someone was gang-raped there.
Avoiding Ohio because of Ariel Castro is like avoiding England because of Peter Sutcliffe, or Wisconsin because of Jeffrey Dahmer, or France because of Michel Fourniret, or Hungary because of Sylvester Matushka, or Germany because of Peter Kürten.
As Mephisto, Antaeus, Kreb and bimler note:
PGP is overgeneralising from single examples to general rules.
I'd add that when you are worried/ afraid/ have been threatened, your criterion is shifted downwards so that you'll pick up on even the most weak signal and hypervigilance reigns supreme.
@ PGP:
Why not try to think in another fashion wherein you feel as though your own input matters more. Try to see yourself more as an actor than as being acted upon. The whole world isn't against you and you aren't helpless.
First of all, you can see through much of the altie/ woo posturing/ propaganda You're smart.. You can understand that what people tell us and what we tell ourselves can greatly limit our outlook and how we behave.
Using a 'nym with "guinea pig" suggests being acted upon by experimenters - PLUS 'politically'.
Why not think of yourself differently. You can affect others as well- it's a two way street.
If you suppose others label you and categorise you to have you fit neatly into a box of their choice, you don't have to go along with it. You can tell them off. You can tell them they're wrong. You can do the same to them.
So Jake is off to Texas to acquire another degree with which to convince people that his pseudoscience and conspiracy mongering are correct.
That's not how it works.
What is it about Texas?
Dr B, Andy et compagnie, Mike Adams, most recently.
And now, Gary Null announces that he'll establish a medical facility there:
he's hosted a few health retreats there this summer to raise money for land-based ( Pacifica) radio stations that allow his infomercials airtime. His cronies provide support and instruction as he lectures to his mad heart's content.
His retreat palace recreates a luxury spa atmoshere with exercise, diet control, classes, energy healing and brain washing. These were highly advertised on his shows with testimonials and reports of incredible health results. Photos at his various websites.
Now, his woo-centric RN health counsellor reveals that she
will be re-locating there and that alt med providers will also follow.( she has her own place in NY for vitamin C drips, et al). The Maestro says that they will provide methods to achieve 'age-reversal' and heal serious ills, especially neuorlogically-based and degenerative diseases.
Good luck with that.
Re: Jake.
One can only feel sorry for his thesis supervisor...
@ sheepmilker:
I am trying to imagine how he was able to reconcile his woo with degree requirements and present something realistic enough to be acceptable to SB professors. And the thesis!
Ha ha ha!. And what would the subject be? Oh lord almighty.
I don't know how he was able to get through. Perhaps Ren or Rueben can enlighten us.
This is comparable to a student who believed that personality was determined by birth date ( astrological influences) getting a SB master's degree in psych.
Perhaps he covered up his real views to please profs.
"I don't believe in astrology--us Virgo's are skeptical like that"
DW, yeah, it's like a creationist doing a PhD in molecular biology!
@Denice Walter
Well, I'm sure that Jake's choice of UT has nothing to do with the fact that his uncle is on the Board of Regents.
As to his thesis, I don't recall hearing anything about him presenting one or doing his culminating experience at GWU.
lilady,
Thank you so much for what you do. I forget how vile people can be. I will keep reading Orac's blog and your comments. Thank you very much to you both for your response.
Who is Ariel Castro? Any relationship with Fidel Castro?
re: Jake Crosby,
I'm Jealous, but then I might be there too if it wasn't about my (lack of) income and a psychopath who wanted me dead and had a largish sample of minion to do its deed. At least, I have a publication.
Alain
Alain -- do a quick google search to find out who Ariel Castro is. He was arrested for kidnapping three women and keeping them prisoner for ten years in his East Cleveland home as sex slaves. He even had a child with one of them, though he beat and starved another one to cause her to miscarry multiple times. He pled guilty under plea bargain to avoid the death sentence, and was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole (well, multiple sentences of hundreds of years each, which comes to the same thing). Then, just a few days ago, he somehow managed to kill himself in his cell despite being on suicide watch. Despicable human being.
Ok, Thanks Calli, I will google him.
Alain
Is anyone else getting weird text at the bottom of the post?
@ Scared Momma: The "RI Regulars" (TM) welcome you .
Time now for lilady's "Media Update of Anne Dachel's daily Media Update." The bot posted two comments about Jenny McCarthy's debut on "The View":
http://www.medicaldaily.com/jenny-mccarthy-debuts-view-sympathy-aside-s…