Here we go yet again.

I’m half tempted to use a YouTube clip of Al Pacino as Michael Corleone in The Godfather, Part 3, where he says, “Just when I thought I was out…they pull me back in.” I’ll restrain myself this time. Instead, I’ll just tell you what I’m talking about, which is the manufactured scandal known as the “CDC whistleblower.” It’s an antivaccine conspiracy theory that I’ve written about many times before, most recently less than a week ago. The long version of the explanation is in the links, but the short version is that a CDC psychologist named William Thompson, who was involved in some of the CDC’s studies looking at whether vaccines (in particular the MMR) or thimerosal-containing vaccines are correlated with an increased incidence of autism. Indeed, he was the first author of an important one that failed to find a link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders other than autism.

Then, a year ago, Thompson was featured in a video by the hero to the antivaccine movement, Andrew Wakefield, alleging that the CDC had omitted data that showed a link between the MMR vaccine and autism in African-American boys. The “meat” of this video consisted of cherry-picked and highly edited snippets from telephone conversations Thompson had had with Brian Hooker, a biochemical engineer turned incompetent epidemiologist wannabe and all purpose antivaccine crank, who had recorded the calls without his knowledge over several months. Hooker, earning the title I bestow upon him of “incompetent epidemiologist wannabe” published a paper “reanalyzing” the data from Destefano et al, the 2004 study that Thompson had coauthored with Frank DeStefano that Thompson was now claiming hid data. The result was a truly incompetently performed “reanalysis” of DeStefano et al purporting to show a 3.4-fold increased risk of autism attributable to MMR vaccination in African American boys. Of course, it showed nothing of the sort, and Hooker’s paper was later retracted. Because the whole story fed the central conspiracy theory of the antivaccine movement, namely that the CDC is covering up smoking gun evidence that vaccines cause autism, naturally the antivaccine movement went wild on social media, particularly under the Twitter hashtag #CDCwhistleblower. It’s a conspiracy theory that’s been percolating, with periodic bubbling-up for nearly a year. When last we looked at it last week, antivaccine Congressman Bill Posey (R-Florida) had read a statement allegedly from Thompson claiming that the investigators had destroyed evidence from the study, complete with an image of a large garbage can that’s featured in many antivaccine posts about Posey’s five minute speech.

Over the last several months, I tended to give Thompson the benefit of the doubt (somewhat), concluding that he’s just misguided and cracked under pressure—a portrait of him reinforced by Brian Hooker himself in his letter to the CDC in which Thompson is quoted as describing himself as having become “profoundly depressed” and “delusional” over the publication of DeStefano et al. Indeed, at one point he is described as having developed “acute psychological problems” and quoted as saying that the publication of DeStefano et al was “one of the reasons I became delusional because I was so paranoid about this being published.” As I pointed out at the time, if Thompson indeed underwent a psychological meltdown as described, it was an even greater betrayal of Hooker to have revealed it publicly. However, that portrait of Thompson is what led me to tend not to be too harsh on Thompson.

That’s changed.

The reason is that Thompson appears to have become fully antivaccine. Why do I say this? Because of a press release that showed up in my e-mail in box yesterday and is reproduced—where else?—at the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism. It’s about a book about to be released by Skyhorse Publishing by Kevin Barry, Esq., with a forward by—who else?—Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. and a preface by a blast from the antivaccine past, Boyd Haley. It’s entitled Vaccine Whistleblower: Exposing Autism Research Fraud at the CDC, and in it Barry purports to tell this story:

On July 29th, 2015, Rep. Bill Posey, R-Florida, addressed the U.S. House of Representatives, describing himself as, “absolutely, resolutely pro-vaccine.” However, Rep. Posey implored the House to launch a thorough investigation into the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) for fraud, misrepresentation, and manipulation of data linking vaccines to autism.

He then began to read from the transcripts of Dr. William Thompson.

These transcripts come from four legally recorded phone calls between Dr. Thompson, a senior scientist currently working in the CDC’s vaccine safety division with whistleblower immunity, and Dr. Brian Hooker, a scientist investigating autism and vaccine research.

In Vaccine Whistleblower, Author Kevin Barry dissects these explosive calls to expose a pattern of data manipulation, fraud, and corruption at the highest levels of the CDC. In Dr. Thompson’s own words, “Senior people just do completely unethical, vile things and no one holds them accountable.”

These transcripts are allegedly of conversations from May 8 to July 24, 2014, long after Thompson recovered from whatever acute psychological issues he had had back in 2003 or 2004.

As I’ve pointed out before, it’s not entirely clear that the phone calls between Hooker and Thompson were legally recorded, but let’s for the moment assume they are. It was still a truly despicable betrayal to record someone you pretended to friend, as Hooker appears to have befriended Thompson and then betrayed him. I note that Barry is the copresident of the Elizabeth Birt Center for Autism Law & Advocacy (EBCALA), an organization we’ve encountered before on multiple occasions on this very blog. Let’s just say that it’s an organization that’s been associated with claims to have “blown the lid” off the CDC vaccine program without actually, you know, blowing the lid off the CDC vaccine program. In particular, I took EBCALA to task for having published what I considered to be a highly unethical study that, contrary to its author’s claims, didn’t actually show a connection between vaccines and autism. If Barry’s story is as credible as the whole “CDC whistleblower” story has been thus far (i.e., not very), I doubt that this book “nullifies the government’s claims that ‘vaccines are safe and effective,’ and reveals that the government rigged research to cover up the link between vaccines and autism,” as the publicity material for the book proclaims.

Normally, I’d have seen this press release and be left scratching my head, at least until the book comes out August 25. Fortunately for me, one of the not-so-Thinking Moms over at the “Thinking Moms'” Revolution, ShamROCK, whom we met here for the first time when she made one of the most boneheadedly nonsensical historical analogy about SB 277, a new California law that eliminates nonmedical exemptions, appears to have an advance copy (or at least an excerpt) and can’t wait to spill the beans in a post entitled The Thompson Transcripts: Shocking Revelations by the CDC Whistleblower.

It starts with this quote attributed to William Thompson:

“That’s the deal . . ., that’s what I keep seeing again and again and again . . . where these senior people [at CDC] just do completely unethical, vile things and no one holds them accountable.”

— Dr. William Thompson to Dr. Brian Hooker in a recorded phone call, June 12, 2014

As I said when Rep. Posey trotted out a quote from Thompson claiming that his co-investigators on DeStefano et al, if his colleagues at the CDC were pissed off at him before, what must his co-authors think of him now that he’s quoted as saying that they had met to find a way to “hide” the link between MMR and autism in African-American males, characterizing them as having “brought a big garbage can into the meeting room and reviewed and went through all the hard copy documents that we had thought we should discard and put them in a huge garbage can”? As I said at the time, I’m sure that saying such things will make Thompson even more popular at the CDC than he is now, which is almost certainly not very after what he did last year. Now he’s describing his former bosses in the CDC National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases as doing unethical and vile things. (He’s now in the National Center on Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities.)

What else is he claiming now? Well, for one thing, he’s now trashing his own biggest study:

Dr. Thompson advises Dr. Hooker to focus on a mantra regarding tics because, as he states,“I can say that pretty confidently, vaccines cause tics. We replicated that.” The replication study was “Early Thimerosal Exposure and Neuropsychological Outcomes at 7 to 10 Years.” He then suggests the “mantra” should switch to “. . . (and) tics are four times as common among kids with autism,” and “There is biologic plausibility right now, I really do believe there is, to say that Thimerosal causes autism-like features.” (emphasis added). You might want to read that line again.

Amazingly, “tics” is not listed as a table injury with the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. Thompson expresses his incredulity at that because, as he says, the science is clear; the CDC itself has replicated the finding with other studies.

I discussed this very study in great detail when it was published in 2007. Indeed, Thompson appears to be making the same mistake that Sallie Bernard and SafeMinds did when it came out in that he is cherry picking associations. As I pointed out at the time, it is true that the study found some negative correlations that achieved statistical significance, one of which was an increased incidence of tics. However, when running 42 tests, as Thompson did, it would be shocking if there were not a few anomalous findings. What gave me confidence that the adverse findings were almost certainly due to random chance alone is the observation that there were positive, beneficial correlations observed as well, and in roughly the same numbers. To paraphrase the way I put it at the time, if Thompson accepts that tics were associated with thimerosal, than there’s no reason for him not to accept the beneficial association between thimerosal and better scores on, for instance, the WJ-III test. If you accept one, there’s no reason to reject the other. Or, as Steve Novella responded to David Kirby’s cherry picking all the negative associations and ignoring the positive:

What Kirby does is not just really dumb, it’s despicable. He cherry picks all the negative (meaning bad) neurological outcomes and pretends that the study shows a correlation (it doesn’t, when you look at ALL the data). He then tries to dismiss the positive (good) outcomes as absurd. He mockingly writes:

If they (the CDC) really mean that thimerosal increases IQ levels in males, then sign me up for a double-dose flu shot this year.

No, David, they don’t mean that. Not by any stretch of the imagination. It takes incompetent statistical analysis or the blindness of ideology to write something so ridiculous. What the CDC means is that the study does NOT show that thimerosal increases IQ, nor that it causes motor tics, or improve motor skills, or decrease language skills, or anything else. The study showed no correlations because it all averaged out as noise.

This is, by the way, the same mistake that astrologers make (remember that crusty pseudoscience?). They look at many variables then cherry pick the outliers. At best what this study might show is a possible correlation, but any such possible correlation would have to be corroborated by a later study (with fresh data) that looked specifically at that one variable.

In other words, what Thompson’s study showed was statistical noise, with no association between thimerosal-containing vaccines and adverse neurological outcomes. Yet now he’s backtracking on his own study, even going so far as to misinterpret it! If you wonder why I now conclude that Thompson is antivaccine, look no further than this about face on his own study.

But there’s more. Sadly, there’s so much more. For instance:

Dr. Thompson also gives insight into media hype of outbreaks of measles in the U.S. and polio in third-world countries : “These drug companies and their promoters, they’re making such a big deal of these measles outbreaks. It’s like a never ending thing where the press loves to hype it and it scares people.”

Yes, that’s the pharma shill gambit Thompson is using. Is there a gambit more pathognomonic of the antivaccine movement, quacks, and cranks than the pharma shill gambit? No, I would argue, there is not. Still not convinced? Then look at this:

Dr. Thompson then brings Dr. Hooker’s attention to the SEED project, which he refers to as “Disneyland” (of data), and how this data set contains the health records of some 1200 children, 800 of which are confirmed autistic, with complete vaccination records, including prenatal vaccines and RhoGAM shots. This data has yet to be released to the public for study. In fact, according to Dr. Thompson, “it is under lock and key.” However, as Dr. Thompson says, “So far there is about sixty proposals in, um, for people ready to do studies. Not a single one of them looks at vaccines, not one!” He is clearly outraged by this when he recounts how he asked his colleagues “What are you going to say when you have twelve hundred autism cases and a bunch of controls and you never looked at vaccines and you have all their vaccine records?” Dr. Thompson describes the SEED data as a “. . . gold mine. That’s the mother-load of mother-loads (sic).

So, assuming this is true, Thompson is outraged that, of all the sixty proposals for studies using SEED project data thus far submitted, none of them looks at vaccines? If that’s not an indication that he’s become antivaccine, I don’t know what is! Let’s just put it this way. Did it ever occur to Thompson that the reason there are no proposals for studies using the SEED data that examine vaccines is because, from a strictly scientific standpoint, there is no interest in vaccines as a cause of autism or other neurodevelopmental disorders. The reason for that is simple. There is no credible evidence to support the hypothesis that vaccines (or just thimerosal-containing vaccines) cause autism. Apparently not. Like any good antivaccinationist, William Thompson cannot accept that.

Of course, one has to remember that these transcripts no doubt consist of excerpts of Thompson’s conversations with Hooker that are carefully—shall we say?—curated to give the worst possible impression of the CDC and to present Thompson as some sort of real whistleblower. It’s sad, really. There are so many holes in Thompson’s story, as I’ve documented over the last year, that it’s just not particularly credible without verification by another party. Worse, Thompson seemingly let whatever his beefs were with the CDC lead him to reject whatever understanding of epidemiology he had and start misrepresenting his own NEJM paper as supporting a causative role of thimerosal in vaccines for causing tics, even going so far as to imply that the reason thimerosol-containing flu vaccines are recommended for pregnant women is because “the drug companies think that if it is in at least that one vaccine then no one could argue that it should be out of the other vaccines outside of the US.”

It’s time to take the gloves off when discussing this “CDC whistleblower.” William Thompson has become antivaccine. As difficult as that is to accept, it’s hard to come to any other conclusion, given his behavior. As a result, I’m starting to drift closer to the position of antivaccinationists on this, but for a different reason. I now want an investigation, if only to get Thompson’s butt on the stand for some cross-examination. He’s been silent for nearly a year. I want him to be forced to explain himself and back up his charges. I bet he can’t.

Comments

  1. #1 Dangerous Bacon
    September 8, 2015

    Dr. Hyphenate says: “When I came to learn of Thompson’s allegations…I believe that we in the scientific community have an ethical obligation to take allegations of scientific fraud seriously.”

    Magically, later in the same post Dr. Hyphenate has moved on to gushing over “Thompson’s revelations”.

    I ask again: what sort of scientist conflates claims and allegations (which have been thoroughly debunked, here and elsewhere) with Revealed Truth? Whoever taught you the scientific method should have _their_ tenure reconsidered.

    And it is unseemly for Dr. “I’m not anti-vaccine, just pro-safe vaccine” to continue whining about “ad hominems” after making snide allusions about pro-vaccine posters being pharma shills. He’s starting to remind me of Jay Gordon.*

    *and that’s not a compliment.

  2. #2 Narad
    September 9, 2015

    Re; ingesting mercury, No, I don’t abuse children, nor do I drown puppies.

    You have either serious problems with reading comprehension or a really pathetic habit of evasion through dishonesty.

  3. #3 Delphine
    September 9, 2015

    Then the dream ends when the phone rings,
    you doing alright he said it’s out there most
    days and nights, but only a fool would
    complain. Anyway Susan, if you like, our
    conversation is as faint as a sound in my
    memory, as those fingernails scratching on
    my hull.

  4. #4 Delphine
    September 9, 2015

    *cough* Bismarck *cough*

    futile

  5. #5 James Lyons-Weiler, PhD
    Allison Park, PA
    September 9, 2015

    Sigh. Again, more character attacks. Now my honesty is being questioned. Drowning puppies not bad enough for you?

    Chris, the MMR has indeed been in use for a long time. However, in 1971 the total number of jabs before age of 6 was what? And what it is now? You go ahead, and take YOUR time.

    Wholescale changes to the pediatric vaccination schedule are not subject to approval by studies – think of it – so-called vaccine safety studies conducted one at a time – not a thought of cumulative dose effect across vaccines. The Board has kept adding more and more vaccines – all may be very good one at a time – and side effects rare. Seven at a time? Nine? You know, concern over safety of medicines is the other side of the science.

    DB: I don’t make allusions. I asked a question. Being Pro-Vaccine does not make one shill of Pharma. And I never mentioned Pharma. I said “conflicts of interest”. It’s a fair question, given the lengths that industry will go to destroy a career to insure their profits. Look up Dr. Gretchen LaFever-Watson. Even the CDC says ADHD is overdiagnosed now.

    Again, DB: “what sort of scientist conflates claims and allegations, etc”

    Thompson’s statements are confessions and first-hand eyewitness accounts of shady dealings and practices. It takes a “statement of concern” to have a paper retracted. There have been over 10,000 statements of concern resulting from Thompson’s revelations. (crickets)

    Thoroughly debunked, eh? First of all, debunking a confession is extremely hard. Second, the birth certificate mention in the plan is no permission slip to fail to report the overall result, the initial result, and to fail to report the subgroup result that was powered sufficiently (just not with data from the birth certificates). Is it really that hard to show all of your work?

    Please tell me, who has debunked Thompson’s admission that he and his co-workers found a positive association in “isolated” autistic kids, but then simply decided to not publish that particular subgroup analysis? It happens to be in the Congressional record that Thompson kept copies of those specific data and the analysis results specifically because the others agreed to destroy theirs……..

    And who has debunked his description of finding positive associations, only to have his co-authors water down the text so much that reviewers said (not verbatim now, so easy… “WTF? why don’t you say that in the text???” (Tics, man, tics).

    Further, no one has debunked Frank DeStefano’s admission of omission of results

    https://sharylattkisson.com/cdc-responds-to-allegation-it-omitted-vaccine-autism-study-link/

    Nor has anyone debunked his admission that some autism may have been caused by vaccines

    https://sharylattkisson.com/cdc-possibility-that-vaccines-rarely-trigger-autism/

    No one has debunked the Vaccine Court, who has rule 86 times that vaccines caused autism….

    Simply because one cannot accept the truth does not mean that those who speak it are liars.

  6. #6 James Lyons-Weiler, PhD
    Allison Park, PA
    September 9, 2015

    BTW “my charity” is UNICEF, not “my charity”.

  7. #7 Delphine
    September 9, 2015

    Given that Dr. & Mrs. Orac are vacationing in Blimey, I hereby declare a dance party until Dr. Orac’s return.

    Everybody, hands in the air. You too, smart nerd kids. Dance like your ass is on fire.

  8. #8 I. Rony Meter
    September 9, 2015

    “When I came to learn of Thompson’s allegations…”

    what allegations? As in what allegations did *Thompson* pose?

    And don’t say fraud, because that’s not Thompson.

    “Hooker’s FOIA request also landed damning evidence of people cooking data on numerous other studies”

    In which case you could provide links to the documents, quotes, etc. to back up your claims.

    But you don’t. Wonder why that is?

  9. #9 Not a Troll
    September 9, 2015

    ^ Two things and I’m all in.

    1. Better music – much better.
    2. Lots of liquor – never ending stream.

  10. #10 I. Rony Meter
    September 9, 2015

    “Chris, the MMR has indeed been in use for a long time. However, in 1971 the total number of jabs before age of 6 was what? And what it is now? You go ahead, and take YOUR time.”

    Nice dodge. Now answer the question–why didn’t autism rise when the MMR was introduced?

    Or are you abandoning the MMR causes autism alone idea in favor of “too many too soon”.

    Or do you just want to be vague, never address a direct question and pretend you can defend both?

  11. #11 Chris
    September 9, 2015

    Jimmy: “However, in 1971 the total number of jabs before age of 6 was what? And what it is now?”

    Do you know what the word “coincident” means?

    Also what was the preferred vaccine for the 1978 “Measles Elimination Program”? This means you only have to find verifiable documentation dated before 1990 that covers the 1980s.

  12. #12 Rebecca Fisher
    That London
    September 9, 2015

    *Counts up her card quickly*

    BINGO! ANTI-VAX BINGO!!

  13. #13 novalox
    September 9, 2015

    Is it me, or is james exemplifying Dunning-Kreuger syndrome?

    I’ve pointed out some of his posts to my nursing instructors, two of them PhDs in the nursing field (one in nursing research), and they both said that anyone posting that type of information that he has posted here as part of a thesis would have been rejected outright as a doctoral candidate.

    Pretty much, james hasn’t given any actual evidence for his assertions except from known conspiracy sites, we can assume that he is lying and that anything he says can be construed as such until he actually posts some factual information.

  14. #14 Dangerous Bacon
    September 9, 2015

    “Now my honesty is being questioned.”

    I don’t question it; I see rank dishonesty in someone who proclaims they are not antivaccine but “100% Pro-Safe Vaccine”, yet emits numerous tropes of antivaxers (such as the hoary “too many too soon”), employs the pharma shill gambit with the excuse that he just “asked a question”, and to top it off, cites Sharyl (“A Stuck Key Means My Computer Was Hacked”) Attkisson as an authority.

    Required reading for you:

    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/did-a-high-ranking-whistleblower-really-reveal-that-the-cdc-covered-up-proof-that-vaccines-cause-autism-in-african-american-boys/
    http://www.snopes.com/medical/disease/cdcwhistleblower.asp

  15. #15 shay
    September 9, 2015

    “First of all, debunking a confession is extremely hard.”

    No it’s not. Criminal investigators have to do it all the time.

  16. #16 capnkrunch
    September 9, 2015

    James Lyons-Weiler, PhD@206

    Now my honesty is being questioned.

    Making baseless, blanket accusions of conflicts of interest is dishonest. Crying about it won’t help. Want people to stop calling you dishonest? Try practicing some honesty.

  17. #17 Chris
    September 9, 2015

    Here is the thing about the “MMR vaccine causes autism” mania, no one can make up their mind why and how it is supposed to be the culprit.

    First I am amazed that those who just assume the MMR vaccine popped up on this entire planet in 1988. They get confused when asked about the American use since 1971.

    Of course they also get confused that there is not one MMR vaccine, but different versions with variations in vaccine strains. Between 1988 and 1992 the UK used three different versions of an MMR vaccine (they also switched to a different one in 1998).

    Of course the UK removed two of those MMR vaccines in 1992, and Japan dropped theirs. So that makes the American MMR bad? No, because the Urabe mumps strain was causing a higher than acceptable number of meningitis cases. This is a strain never used in the USA.

    The Urabe mumps strain issue is one reason the UK’s Legal Fund was being used to help lawsuits… enter Richard Barr. He had that wad of UK taxpayer cash to wave in front of Wakefield to investigate mumps, which did not go as planned.

    So enter Wakefield, who decided it was the measles vaccine strain. Of course he ignored the Urabe issue until years later when he tried to expose someone else. Wakefield never really cleared up which MMR version his Lancet paper was on. No one has told me with of the three used in the UK, and it was muddied by having one American child. Wakefield just decided to tell parents without any evidence to demand singles shots.

    And so parents tried to comply. Expect the UK never approved a single mumps strain before. They did not even vaccinate for mumps prior to their first MMR vaccines in 1988. So some enterprising private clinics decided to import a single mumps vaccine from overseas illegally. It was the Urabe strain, see MEDICINES CONTROL AGENCY TO OBJECT TO IMPORTATION OF UNLICENSED SINGLE URABE STRAIN MUMPS VACCINE. Oops.

    And then comes Theresa Deisher who wants to blame the rubella vaccine strain developed by Plotkin, which in 1979 replaced the strain in the first American MMR vaccine. She does not like that it is made from one fetal cell line. Her notions have been discussed on this blog. Most striking she told me personally (and quite forcefully) that history of rubella by Plotkin is wrong. Also, she really hates the varicella vaccine. I did not have the chance to tell her my kids all got the actual disease, and yet my son is still autistic (well, he was still nonverbal at age three, and got chicken pox when he was five).

    So, folks, get your stories straight. Figure out which MMR vaccine is evil, and then why. Oh, and do try to get those autism numbers straight. Obviously basing prevalence on seven young boys who were vaccinated later than the recommended schedule is just ridiculous.

    By the way, I am about halfway through NeuroTribes: The Legacy of Autism and the Future of Neurodiversity by Steve Silberman. It is pretty clear the definition of autism, and which kids got a diagnosis was very limited even twenty years ago (when I was told repeatedly my son did not have autism).

    Jimmy, you homework assignment from an actual autism parent to read Neurotribes, and then write a paper for a PubMed indexed journal explaining which version of the MMR vaccine is the culprit, and definitely pinpoint why and which portion causes the issues. I am especially curious how the MMR vaccine caused my son to have seizures over a year before he got the vaccine.

  18. #18 capnkrunch
    September 9, 2015

    Oops, didn’t fully read Dangerous Bacon’s comment #215 but I see he made that point already.

    ”…employs the pharma shill gambit with the excuse that he just “asked a question”…

    Frankly, I’d say that’s more dishonest than just coming out and saying it (which would be dishonest in its own right given the absolute lack of evidence).

  19. #19 Denice Walter
    September 9, 2015

    @ Chris:

    TMR’s Prof ( Zoey O’Toole, yesterday) called the book “dangerously misleading”. Interestingly, her own son is UNvaccinated and she believes that antibiotics caused his autism ( spoken at AutismOne 2015), And she doesn’t like the book one bit, despite not reading it. Olmsted *et compagnie* are, in similar fashion, up at arms against the author because their own books asserts “autism is NEW” or suchlike.

    At any rate, Silberman appears to be remarkably close to what I’ve believed for a long time. ( I.e. changed dx, increased awareness, mainstreaming, less reliance upon institutions, Andy’s efforts, lawyers looking for work, professional advocates, internet (mal) education are amongst the factors responsible for the numerical increase).

    I hope that Silberman’s book, which is getting a lot of mainstream attention, will counter the anti-vaxxers’ mythological system.
    Oddly, within their posted articles ( kim @ AoA, Prof @TMR) and comments they absentmindedly include instances of
    1. multiple relatives with ASDs
    2. people who are much older with autism
    both of which give lie to their usual assertions (*a la Dachel*) that autism is environmental and didn’t exist years ago.

  20. #20 sadmar
    Dance Party
    September 9, 2015

    NaT:

    Here ya’ go:

  21. #21 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    September 9, 2015

    Johnny: “Of course, nothing I’ve said should be construed to suggest that I think Hooker’s “study” has any validity.”

    You better run, son. This crowd will tear you to pieces.

    My statement about Hooker’s paper not being valid was for you. For the sake of argument, I was willing to pretend the paper was valid, but it was retracted for a reason. This is a tough crowd (they have corrected me a time or two), but around here, high quality evidence talks, and you and Thompson don’t seem to have any.

    Even if Thompson pointed Hooker to actual evidence of of a cover up of an association between MMR and Autism (he didn’t), and even if Hooker’s paper revealed the truth of the numbers (it doesn’t) the paper proved that there is no association between the MMR and white boys, or white girls, or black girls, or black boys who receive the MMR on time.

    The fact that you chose to ignore my questions regarding if you agreed that this is the case, and were willing to say so, did answer my questions about your intellectual honesty.

  22. #22 Narad
    September 9, 2015

    No one has debunked the Vaccine Court, who has rule 86 [sic] times that vaccines caused autism….

    Heh. (There’s more, but it hardly seems worth the effort.)

  23. #23 JGC
    September 9, 2015

    Jeffrey, the NVICP has never compensated anyone for developing an autism spectrum disorder as a consequence of having been vaccinated.

  24. #24 Narad
    September 9, 2015

    Now my honesty is being questioned. Drowning puppies not bad enough for you?

    Let’s walk through this one:

    (3) Great question. Why not corn syrup? … The amount of science done on cell lines and in animals that show toxicity of mercury of all forms is astounding.

    No, you really have to work your ass off with orally ingested elemental Hg to find toxicity. Here, test it out for yourself: call Poision Control and tell them that, say, your five-year-old somehow just swallowed mercury from a regular thermometer. I’ll wait.

    Re; ingesting mercury, No, I don’t abuse children, nor do I drown puppies.

    You have either serious problems with reading comprehension or a really pathetic habit of evasion through dishonesty.

    Your latest response merely reinforces the final assertion.

  25. #25 Julian Frost
    South Africa
    September 9, 2015

    No one has debunked the Vaccine Court, who has rule 86 times that vaccines caused autism

    The Vaccine Court has never ruled that vaccines cause autism. In fact, in the Omnibus Autism Proceedings heard before Vaccine Court, six of the best candidates were used in test cases. Not only did the plaintiffs lose, they were trounced.
    Your comment has just given the lie to your claim that you are not antivaccine. If you are willing to repeat a libelous claim about vaccines, you are antivaccine.

  26. #26 herr doktor bimler
    September 9, 2015

    I hope that Silberman’s book, which is getting a lot of mainstream attention, will counter the anti-vaxxers’ mythological system.

    From the excerpts I’ve read, Silberman badly misrepresents Kanner’s work and writings, perhaps to provide his narrative with a villain (in order to turn Asperger into an even more admirable figure than he already was). I’d rather the book had been written by someone more concerned with facts.

  27. […] conspiracy has been debunked in detail elsewhere, but for the purposes of the Trace Amounts, the problem they run into is that Thompson’s study of […]

  28. #28 herr doktor bimler
    September 9, 2015

    changed dx, increased awareness, mainstreaming, less reliance upon institutions,

    This came out a few years ago in the UK, and may be representative of current ‘received opinion’:
    Sheila Baker said it took 50 years for doctors to diagnose her son with autism.

  29. #29 Chris
    September 9, 2015

    hdb: “From the excerpts I’ve read, Silberman badly misrepresents Kanner’s work and writings, …”

    Please read the whole book.

  30. #30 Chris
    September 9, 2015

    I should add that Silberman did not gloss over the several good things accomplished by Kanner. This includes working for humane treatment of those at his first American job, a an asylum in North Dakota (one novel thing he did was listen to the patients and talk to the family), supplying them art supplies, and then there was his sponsorship of several doctors from Germany who were fleeing the Nazis (including a couple that worked in Vienna with Asperger).

    There are things that he missed, overlooked and were probably a product of the times (like myths on Native Americans). And he was the earliest pediatric psychiatrist (his book on the subject was in use for decades). Some of his deficits can probably be explained as errors of ambition, and he did come under criticism from other psychiatrists.

    Bettelheim, on the other hand did not come off as well. There is no light treatment for Laurette “shock therapy and LSD” Bender. And those are just a couple of the competitors to Kanner in the field.

    Also remember that psychiatry was still evolving through much of the century, and there were lots of toxic ideas. One idea being that homosexuality was a psychiatric disorder.

    I am on the chapter about Rimland. I never much liked Rimland because I associate him with all the drug cures and special diets that I kept being told I “supposed” to use on my son. But Silberman treats him more sympathetically (at least where I am reading now, just like Kanner was earlier). So my opinion of him is more nuanced.

    Before the Rimland chapter there was an interesting one that started on the story of Hugo Gernsback. He moved from Europe to the USA at an early age and sold early electronic kits (first decade of the 20th century). He was a friend of Nicola Tesla, and created the pulp periodical “Amazing Stories.” The chapter is about HAM radio and science fiction enthusiasts, who then turn into computer guys and tech visionaries.

    Which hit home for me, since hubby still had his HAM radio gear when I met him during our freshman year of college. He only did it to fiddle with the electronics, and sold it to buy parts for his first homebrew computer.

    Which is a nice skill to have in a hubby, since he just replaced our broken DVD player, annoying CD player and any VHS recorder with a multimedia computer with a dual TV tuner. It is because our twelve year old HD (only 720i) does not have an HDMI port (using a converter, but it still cannot play Blu-Ray due to their copying protections). This is why nerds make good spouses.

  31. #31 Denice Walter
    September 9, 2015

    Chris, I wonder if ability with a VCR/ DVR is predictive?

    I am utterly hopeless. As my late father often said, ” Call somebody” when machines broke or didn’t work correctly.
    Oddly enough, I ( and he) did shockingly well on quantitative tests. No problem there.

    Interestingly as well, my.. er… creatures are similarly useless.

    How often have I spoken to well-mannered Indian gentlemen for long periods of time on the phone about anti-virus or other arcane ephemera. Too often I fear

    HOWEVER I can fix more mundane objects around the house and fine leathers.

  32. #32 shay
    September 9, 2015

    Denise, this is why I don’t mind living three blocks from my in-laws. Being able to borrow my seventeen year old nephew comes in handy.

  33. #33 Chris
    September 9, 2015

    “Chris, I wonder if ability with a VCR/ DVR is predictive?”

    As is the ability to create one with parts from an electronics supply website? I am afraid that is learned behavior, and it takes some experience. Something my autistic son was given an opportunity to learn, but he said he did not want to do that.

  34. #34 James Lyons-Weiler, PhD
    Allison Park, PA
    September 9, 2015

    Julian Frost – Libelous claim? Ok, now you have my attention.

    1. Thompson himself concluded there was sufficient evidence to conclude that some vaccines can cause autism.
    2. Scientists may conclude given the evidence any way they choose. It’s our duty to interpret.
    3. There is, in my view, clear precedent, and every family with a vaccine-injured child who acquired regressive autism should provide a copy of this PACE Env. Law Review article to their lawyer and ask them to consider approaching the VICP for compensation.

    Holland et al., 2011. Unanswered Questions from the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program: A Review of Compensated Cases of Vaccine-Induced Brain Injury. PACE Law Review Pace Environmental Law Review 28(2)
    http://digitalcommons.pace.edu/pelr/vol28/iss2/6/

    Read it. Although the VICP will deny they ever based an award on a finding of autism invoked by vaccine, there are plenty of instances where autism is mentioned in findings that have led to awards. This type of lack of transparency is the kind that wins the day on appeal.

    I stand by my statement that I am Pro–Vaccine. You can stand from the highest mountain top and yell that you think differently. The fact that I want REAL vaccine safety research does not make me anti-vaccine. I will not base my personal nor professional judgment of the safety and efficacy of vaccines on the the crap that has been doled out by the CDC under the guise of science.

    There are a growing number of PhDs willing to come out and say they do not trust the vaccine safety research that Thompson and his colleagues were involved in. The CDC team omitted not only the African American result; they omitted the results they obtained for another subgroup: Isolated autism.

    Destefano et al. (2004) did not report anything about the association of autism with vaccination considering what were referred to in the data analysis plan as “isolated autism” cases. These were cases of children who did not have other “comorbid” conditions – the autism would be attributable to the vaccine alone. According to Thompson, their initial analysis found a strong association of on-time vaccination. Thompson revealed to Hooker that the group met to discuss how to weaken the association by changing the study design – and he revealed how they changed both the age-group designation and then the criteria for being considered “isolated autism”.
    Referring to this particular group of cases, Thompson told Hooker: “That’s where you would expect it the most”.
    In the end, the results from this very important subgroup result was not even reported in the published study.

    Here is the relevant part of the data analysis plan:
    “Isolated autism cases are cases with no other co-morbid developmental disability while nonisolated cases do have a co-morbid developmental disability. Previous research suggests that the majority of non-isolated cases have a co-existing developmental disability of mental retardation (CDC, 2001). Both isolated and non-isolated cases will be compared separately to controls. The objectives from the primary analyses will be replicated in this sub-analysis.”

    According to Thompson, this result was positive, and this is the positive result that he expressed having the strongest feelings of having left out of the publication.

    The fact that the African American male subgroup was not specifically in the data analysis plan – and yet the analysis was conducted anyway, along with other subgroups not specified in the plan, is disturbing enough. The fact that they met and cherry-picked only the negative results to publish from these ad-hoc analyses, never approached by an IRB, is criminal.

    42 C.F.R. § 93.103: “Research misconduct means fabrication, falsification, or plagiarism in proposing, performing, or reviewing research, or in reporting research results. . . . (b) Falsification is manipulating research materials, equipment, or processes, or changing or omitting data or results that the research is not accurately represented in the research record.”

    Did you catch that? OMITTING DATA OR RESULT.

    The question is, since the CDC so clearly fudged so many studies, which vaccines are safe?

    More research is needed – and it must be conducted in a manner in which the profit motive is completely moot.

    I remain, as always, your Pro-Vaccine, Pro-Good-Vaccine-Safety-Science Scientist.

  35. #35 JP
    September 9, 2015

    Chris, I wonder if ability with a VCR/ DVR is predictive?

    I am utterly hopeless. As my late father often said, ” Call somebody” when machines broke or didn’t work correctly.
    Oddly enough, I ( and he) did shockingly well on quantitative tests. No problem there.

    Interestingly as well, my.. er… creatures are similarly useless.

    Predictive of what, I guess I’d wonder. My brother was always really good with mechanical things of all sorts, including electronics; he had a notion to go to school to be an electrician at one point, but he ended up working as a mechanic for the railroad. (BNSF.) He never cared too much for school in general, although he did okay in his classes and graduated; I’m pretty sure he took shop class as many times as was permissible, though. Probably there’s some initial aptitude there that caused him to like it – being good at it – plus being raised around it. (I was sorely lacking in spatial abilities as a kid; having my nose stuck in a book all the time might have been part effect and part cause, I suppose. Well, that and being really near-sighted and not having it found out till second grade somehow.)

    It’s a way to make a living, anyway, and he’s able to live back out home, which I guess there’s something to that, even if it ain’t for me.

  36. #36 Chris
    September 10, 2015

    Jimmy: “I remain, as always, your Pro-Vaccine, Pro-Good-Vaccine-Safety-Science Scientist.”

    No you are not. At least not until you write the PubMed indexed paper that provide the verifiable documentation dated before 1990 that autism went up coincident to MMR usage in the USA during the 1980s, and which MMR vaccine is the main cause, while identifying which particular measles or rubella or mumps vaccine strain that is the actual cause.

    Until then, you are basing your pontifications on a borked study that showed in increased autism prevalence on seven little boys who got the MMR vaccine later than the recommended schedule, which was more likely done after an autism diagnosis and as a requirement to enter special ed. preschool (as was their right due to the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act).

    All you are proving now is why you did not get tenure, and were possibly asked to leave the university. You are a liability, not an asset. The only suggestion I have is to seek psych help, which should not still hold a stigma. Bad mental things happen to good people, the only bad thing is to ignore it.

    And no one on this blog should ever judge a person who needs psychological help. We know we are all vulnerable, especially those of us who have seen what happens when the illness is not treated. I am lucky in that my step-mother took me to psyche specialists after my mother died in an accident and she entered my life. She knew her limitations, and saved me. The same cannot be said of a relative who suffered similarly but did not get the psyche support.

  37. #38 Narad
    September 10, 2015

    42 C.F.R. § 93.103

    You are so far behind the f*cking curve that it’s not even funny. All of this sh*t that you’ve been trotting out has been taken apart six ways to Sunday.

    And you fail to acknowledge this when it’s pointed out to you, just like your running away from your dumbf*ck “now my honesty is being questioned” routine when it’s put on display.

    As I originally said, you should really stick to your new halfwit pals in the AoA commentariat, although if this is the best you can muster, you’d probably wind up boring them to death as well.

  38. #39 Julian Frost
    South Africa
    September 10, 2015

    James Lyons-Weiler @ #235:

    Although the VICP will deny they ever based an award on a finding of autism invoked by vaccine, there are plenty of instances where autism is mentioned in findings that have led to awards.

    That doesn’t mean the vaccine CAUSED the autism. And the first author of the paper you linked to is Mary Holland, a known anti-vaxxer.

    I stand by my statement that I am Pro–Vaccine.

    Actions speak louder than words. Your repetition of the lie that the Vaccine Court has compensated people for vaccine caused autism exposes you as anti-vaxx, no matter how much you proclaim yourself as “Pro-Vaccine”.

    There are a growing number of PhDs willing to come out and say they do not trust the vaccine safety research that Thompson and his colleagues were involved in.

    Name these PhD’s, if they exist.

    I remain, as always, your Pro-Vaccine, Pro-Good-Vaccine-Safety-Science Scientist.

    No. You are antivaccine.

  39. #40 herr doktor bimler
    September 10, 2015

    This type of lack of transparency is the kind that wins the day on appeal.

    “Lack of transparency” is not the phrase I would have chosen to describe this conflict between (a) “Vaccine Court, [ruling] 86 times that vaccines caused autism”, and (b) Vaccine Court never ruling that vaccines caused autism. The suggestion that the rulings are there — hidden in the spaces between the words, or in double-secret-probation codicils, but insufficiently transparent — does not really convince.
    So those appeals at the NVICP, how many have won the day so far?

  40. #41 Dangerous Bacon
    September 10, 2015

    “since the CDC so clearly fudged so many studies”

    What might those have been? And by what mechanism did the CDC manage to invalidate all the vaccine safety studies that were not conducted by people working for the CDC?

  41. #42 Denice Walter
    September 10, 2015

    @ JP:

    I’m mostly joking because Chris often discusses nerdism in its various guises.

    But true, I’m quite bad with computers, VCRs etc.

    As you may know intelligence tests separate out abilities and I doubt I have much in that area.

    I do think that I ( sort of) comprehend the principles by which computers operate but actually fixing things? No. Not at all.

    But I can repair clothing and leather which can save LOTS of money.

  42. #43 JGC
    September 10, 2015

    Did you catch that? OMITTING DATA OR RESULT.

    What data or result is it you believe was omitted, james?

    It clearly wasn’t data regarding the vaccination status, timing and incidence of autism in African American males, since that was obviously present and readily available for Hooker to ‘re-analyze’ in such an incompetent manner that his publication was rapidly retracted.

    And it can’t be the result that a causal association exists in African American males only who receive MMR vaccination prior to 36 months of age and autism spectrum disorders, because the data does not support the existence of such a causal association.

    So what data and what result do you belevie has been omitted? be specific.

  43. #44 JP
    September 10, 2015

    I’m mostly joking because Chris often discusses nerdism in its various guises.

    Ah.

    But true, I’m quite bad with computers, VCRs etc.

    As you may know intelligence tests separate out abilities and I doubt I have much in that area.

    I do think that I ( sort of) comprehend the principles by which computers operate but actually fixing things? No. Not at all.

    But I can repair clothing and leather which can save LOTS of money.

    I’m actually reasonably good with computers, at least to the point that I have a reputation for it amongst technophobic humanities types. Not so much hardware, though, I guess, although I can open a thing up and switch the RAM cards, for instance.

    I’m not terribly good at mending clothes, although I do make a valiant effort to stitch up holes, etc. I really only know one stitch type though, and the results are a bit crude-looking, but hey, whatever, I’m a grad student anyway.

  44. #45 stewartt1982
    Oxfordshire
    September 11, 2015

    @245 JP

    I’m not terribly good at mending clothes, although I do make a valiant effort to stitch up holes, etc. I really only know one stitch type though, and the results are a bit crude-looking, but hey, whatever, I’m a grad student anyway.

    I’m a postdoc now … still mending my clothes by means of a single stitch type, resulting in the crude-looking results of my grad student days. One of these days I will have to learn a second stitch.

  45. #46 Denice Walter
    September 11, 2015

    I should note that I only repair clothing that I REALLY like and want to save but I have sometimes gone to extreme measures such as when I dropped curry ( korma IIRC) on an expensive grey blue thin cotton cardigan – I even asked a few Indian women about *their* solutions ( lemon juice) and attempted several times to remove the stain..But it was , alas!, in vain. Curry is forever.

    Mostly, I do tiny repairs on seams- anything larger means that the item has outlived its usefulness or that I have to give it to the cleaners to fix Or donate it to charity.

    My mother worked in fashion (small department stores in sales, buying, window dressing etc) and learned many tricks of the trade which I copied. She never actually *made* anything but she could fix things. The leather repairs however are self-taught through trial and error- something like repairing damaged artwork.

  46. #47 Julian Frost
    South Africa
    September 11, 2015

    Since “Doctor” Lyons-Weiler hasn’t deigned to provide us with evidence, I have something to sing to him.

    Brave Sir Robin ran away.
    (“No!”)
    Bravely ran away away.
    (“I didn’t!”)
    When danger reared it’s ugly head,
    He bravely turned his tail and fled.
    (“I never!”)
    Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
    And gallantly he chickened out.
    (“You’re lying!”)
    Swiftly taking to his feet,
    He beat a very brave retreat.
    Bravest of the brave, Sir Robin!

  47. #48 scot
    United States
    September 23, 2015

    How does the average American really know who is telling the truth. All we can do is listen to what people say and read what they write (on both sides of the argument). The anti vax people seem kind of crazy to me. But the pharma companies who make the vaccines and profit from them, have all been convicted of fraud (and had to pay billions). Who do you trust? crazy people or criminals. And who is doing the scientific research? Can we trust them to tell the truth?

  48. #49 Julian Frost
    South Africa
    September 24, 2015

    All we can do is listen to what people say and read what they write (on both sides of the argument).

    Actually, no. Firstly, vaccines are thoroughly tested. It’s not just the pharmaceutical companies that test them. Authorities test them. In addition, the testing is monitored. Any attempt to “improve” matters is quickly detected and can result in heavy fines. Finally, extensive post-marketing surveillance is done so that any problems are detected. That’s why one rotavirus vaccine was replaced.
    Now let’s look at the anti-vax side. They repeat the claim that vaccines cause autism, despite the fact that research in multiple countries scanning literally millions of people proves that false. They downplay both the risks of the diseases and the effectiveness of vaccines. They claim that recently vaccinated people can “shed” illness, even from killed and acellular vaccines. Sometimes, they claim that the vaccines parents receive cause illness in their children.
    How we know who is telling the truth is by looking at the evidence in context. The evidence says that vaccines are vastly safer than the diseases they prevent. That’s how we know that the anti-vax side is full of :poop:

  49. #50 Scot
    United States
    September 25, 2015

    You are forgetting the billions of dollars that have been paid out by the vaccine compensation fund. And why do we need that if they are so safe. Why are vaccine manufacturers exempt from liability and also the docs and nurses giving them? Why do we need a special court for them? No other industry has that. Why did the pharma companies lobby the government to get this court, if there product is so safe and harmless. Think about it. The court has even said that vaccines caused autism in some of the cases. Some of the research you take as truth is so bad. For example, as a placebo, they use everything in the vaccine (all chemicals adjuvents, ect.) except the antigen. They call that a placebo. If you really want to know the truth you would use a saline solution or something harmless. The research you trust so much is largely done by the pharma industry and CDC. The leaders at the CDC eventually work for pharma. Major conflict of interest.
    You did not address the fact that these pharma companies have all been convicted of fraud. How can we fully put our trust in them.
    I appreciate modern medicine and doctors. I am not an anti vaxer, But I am not fully convinced either way yet. Dig deep into this with a non biased skeptical and logical mind. There are still a lot of red flags.

  50. #51 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    September 25, 2015

    Per Wikipedia (not an authoritative source, but ..)

    The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services set up the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (NVICP) in 1988 to compensate individuals and families of individuals injured by covered childhood vaccines. The VICP was adopted in response to concerns over the pertussis portion of the DPT vaccine. Several U.S. lawsuits against vaccine makers won substantial awards. Most makers ceased production, and the last remaining major manufacturer threatened to do so. The VICP uses a no-fault system for resolving vaccine injury claims. Compensation covers medical and legal expenses, loss of future earning capacity, and up to $250,000 for pain and suffering; a death benefit of up to $250,000 is available. If certain minimal requirements are met, legal expenses are compensated even for unsuccessful claims. Since 1988, the program has been funded by an excise tax of 75 cents on every purchased dose of covered vaccine. To win an award, a claimant must show a causal connection; if medical records show a child has one of several listed adverse effects soon after vaccination, the assumption is that it was caused by the vaccine. The burden of proof is the civil-law preponderance-of-the-evidence standard, in other words a showing that causation was more likely than not. Denied claims can be pursued in civil courts, though this is rare.

  51. #52 Chris
    September 25, 2015

    “You are forgetting the billions of dollars that have been paid out by the vaccine compensation fund.”

    Please do a simple math problem. Look at the first table here. Go to the last line. Take the total number of vaccines given during the time period covered in that table (2,532,428,541), and then divide it by the total number of compensated claims (1903).

    Tell us the result and what it means. Compare the results to the effects of diseases like measles, pertussis, diphtheria, etc.

    “Why did the pharma companies lobby the government to get this court, if there product is so safe and harmless.”

    It wasn’t. It was folks like Barbara Loe Fisher who lobbied for it. Pharmaceutical companies were responding to lawsuits by not manufacturing the vaccines, which caused a shortage and an increase of pertussis. This was especially disastrous in the UK.

  52. #53 herr doktor bimler
    September 25, 2015

    But the pharma companies who make the vaccines and profit from them, have all been convicted of fraud (and had to pay billions)
    You did not address the fact that these pharma companies have all been convicted of fraud.

    There’s someone who’s doing his own research .

  53. #54 Dangerous Bacon
    September 25, 2015

    “Why are vaccine manufacturers exempt from liability and also the docs and nurses giving them?”

    Why do antivaxers keep repeating this meme when it is demonstrably false?

    http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/doctors-liability-vaccines-and-autism/

    “The court has even said that vaccines caused autism in some of the cases.”

    Name one.

    “You did not address the fact that these pharma companies have all been convicted of fraud. How can we fully put our trust in them.”

    Does this mean you also reject all drugs (including antibiotics, anti-clot medications in stroke, insulin etc.) because drug companies have done bad things? Better hope you enjoy perfect health until the moment of death.

    “I am not an anti vaxer.”

    Of course you aren’t. Antivaxers don’t exist, if we are to believe them. They’re Just Asking Questions.

  54. #55 has
    September 26, 2015

    Scot@251:

    You did not address the fact that these pharma companies have all been convicted of fraud. How can we fully put our trust in them.

    Your point? Andrew Wakefield also got busted for fraud. Hasn’t stopped you lot polishing his sphincter to a high sheen every day since.

    Of course nobody blindly trusts Big Pharma – that’s why it’s got a buttload of regulatory bodies and laws to stomp on it should it step out of line. Funny enough, they’re not the ones working to undermine the FDA. If movement anti-vaxers and their attendant quack industries were half as well regulated, half of them would be in jail for reckless endangerment, child abuse, and/or fraud. Funny how anti-vaxers never seem so concerned when the lies and harm are committed by their own camp. Double standards much?

  55. #56 Julian Frost
    South Africa
    September 26, 2015

    scot:

    The court has even said that vaccines caused autism in some of the cases.

    False. The Vaccine Court in the US has NEVER rule that vaccines cause autism. And don’t bring up Hannah Poling. She was compensated because it was ruled that the vaccines she received probably worsened an underlying mitochondrial disorder. Only one court in the world has ruled that the MMR causes autism, and that verdict was overturned on appeal.

    I am not an anti vaxer.

    If you are repeating lies, falsities and distortions about vaccines and their risks, you ARE an anti vwxer.

  56. #57 scot
    October 1, 2015

    So, vaccines worsen underlying mitochondrial disorders, which lead to autism like symptoms? If you are OK with that, then you are unable to connect dots. Where are your street smarts? You would get mugged if you ever had to walk through a dangerous neighborhood at night. Hannah was paid millions.
    Since you are so educated Julian, what is a placebo, and if you were conducting a vaccine safety experiment, what would you use as a placebo? If you really want to find the truth, what would you use as a placebo? Please be non-biased and honest.
    You want to label me an anti vaxer, just because I am skeptical and question things. I am skeptical on both sides of the argument. I am just a person trying to find the truth by reading things on the internet. I said on my first post that the anti vax people seem a bit crazy. Its a feeling I get. But I also get the feeling that the pro vaccine people are hiding something and have no problem with lying. I even get the feeling that you are being paid by big pharma to counter all the anti vax people. Because you never question them, not even a little.

  57. #58 Lawrence
    October 1, 2015

    Okay scot, you lost the argument the moment you said “I am just a person trying to find the truth by reading things on the Internet.”

    Go crack open a book on immunology, you’ll be better served.

  58. #59 herr doktor bimler
    October 1, 2015

    I am just a person trying to find the truth by reading things on the Internet.

    “It is a mark of insincerity of purpose to spend one’s time in looking for the sacred Emperor in the low-class tea-shops.”

    you are unable to connect dots
    I suppose it is possible to talk about “connecting the dots” without being a conspiracy-chasing dramadillo, but it doesn’t happen very often.

    what is a placebo?
    That whole “reading things on the Internet” strategy does not seem to work for learning the basic fundaments of the subject one is talking about.

  59. #60 shay
    October 1, 2015

    I am just a person trying to find the truth by reading things on the Internet.

    That was your first mistake.

  60. #61 Scot
    October 1, 2015

    I am being honest. I am reading things on the internet. I don’t take everything I read as truth what so ever. This blog is on the internet. I have a bachelors of science degree (which I know is no big deal). I actually have taken immunology in college from Phd’s. I know Jenner from England was one of the first to experiment with vaccines. Immunology text books only discuss what vaccines are and how they work. They do not go into there manufacturing, the ingredients, adjuvents, the safety studies, or the vaccine injury compensation fund. Her doktor bimler, I know the basic fundamental of this subject. I know what a placebo is and should be.
    Please answer what placebo you would use when doing a vaccine safety experiment. You dodged the question.

  61. #62 Krebiozen
    October 1, 2015

    scot,
    What you don’t realize is that many of us have asked those questions, years ago, have read a great deal about the subject and come to the inescapable conclusion that vaccines are remarkably safe compared to the alternative,

    So, vaccines worsen underlying mitochondrial disorders, which lead to autism like symptoms? If you are OK with that, then you are unable to connect dots.

    Would you prefer to leave a person with a mitochondrial disorder unvaccinated and vulnerable to infections that are very likely to cause far greater problems than autism-like symptoms? Have you thought that through?

    Hannah was paid millions.

    I am skeptical about the effects of vaccines on Hannah Poling, especially since she had a chronic ear infection that would surely have had a greater effect on her immune system than a couple of vaccines. Some have suggested that the kind of symptoms Hannah experienced would occur in those with her condition with or without vaccination. Hannah was compensated by the Vaccine Court but that does not necessarily mean that vaccine were definitely to blame for her symptoms.Personally I would like to see all parents of children with disabilities given government support regardless of the cause.

    Since you are so educated Julian, what is a placebo, and if you were conducting a vaccine safety experiment, what would you use as a placebo? If you really want to find the truth, what would you use as a placebo? Please be non-biased and honest.

    I suspect you have fallen for the antivaxxer lie that vaccines are only tested against the vaccine without preservatives and adjuvants. All vaccine ingredients are first tested against a saline placebo, and only after their effects are well characterized are other vaccines tested against them. Here’s a discussion of placebos in vaccine trials.

    You want to label me an anti vaxer, just because I am skeptical and question things. I am skeptical on both sides of the argument.

    No, you give a strong impression of being an antivaxxer because you have come here making claims that we have seen here a hundred times before, like the implicit claim that vaccines are not tested against a real placebo, which is just not true.

    But I also get the feeling that the pro vaccine people are hiding something and have no problem with lying.

    Whatever gives you that idea? If you can find any lies from pro-vaccine people I would be very surprised. Conversely I could give you a dozen links to blatant lies on multiple antivaccine sites. Check out what they say about formaldehyde for a start, if you don’t believe me.

    I even get the feeling that you are being paid by big pharma to counter all the anti vax people. Because you never question them, not even a little.

    That isn’t true either. To my knowledge no one commenting here is paid to do so, and there is frequent discussion of vaccine safety and efficacy here. I support vaccines because I have read a great deal about them over several years, and the more I read the more convinced I am that the antivaxxers are gravely mistaken.

  62. #63 Narad
    October 1, 2015

    Hannah was compensated by the Vaccine Court

    No, she wasn’t. The case was withdrawn from the Omnibus and settled.

  63. #64 Chris
    October 1, 2015

    Scot: “Hannah was paid millions.”

    Is there any reason why you have not answered my requests on Comment #253? Did you know your computer does have a built in calculator?

    So what does that little math problem show about vaccines, especially compared to the diseases?

    “I even get the feeling that you are being paid by big pharma to counter all the anti vax people.”

    This baffles me. It implies that it is cheaper to let kids get measles, mumps, pertussis, Hib, etc, than to get them vaccinated. During recent measles outbreaks about one in ten who got measles ended up needing hospital care. How is that cheaper than providing two MMR vaccines for around a total of $150 or so?

    Scot, use your Internet research skills to show to me that it is so much cheaper to treat kids, which includes hospital care, than to vaccinate them. Though, there are some restrictions: only PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers are allowed. A couple examples (both available free to read online):

    Pediatrics. 2014 Apr;133(4):577-85.
    Economic Evaluation of the Routine Childhood Immunization Program in the United States, 2009.

    West J Med. 1996 Jul-Aug;165(1-2):20-5.
    Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.

    I should mention that I support vaccines because my oldest ended up going to the hospital by ambulance due to a disease, which he got before there was a vaccine for it (over twenty five years ago). Hence my question of why it is better to let kids get sick instead of vaccinating them.

  64. #65 shay
    October 1, 2015

    Scot – I’m a supporter of childhood vaccinations because I was born too soon for anything but polio and smallpox, and consequently I caught all the currently vaccine-preventable childhood diseases, as did my siblings and my classmates. This is in a middle-class white suburb of Detroit in the late 50’s/early 60’s, with indoor plumbing, clean water, and access to medical care.

    We’re currently experiencing a mumps outbreak in our jurisdiction and you know what? It’s been so long since there’s been a mumps case in this county that the charge nurse from a local walk-in clinic confessed she’d never seen a case outside a textbook. Same with measles.

    Care to guess why younger healthcare professionals in this country have never seen a case of the mumps when 50 years ago they were common as mud? Hmmmm?

  65. #66 herr doktor bimler
    October 1, 2015

    “I even get the feeling that you are being paid by big pharma to counter all the anti vax people.”

    Sometimes I even get the feeling that people asking stupid questions on the Intertubes are ill-informed numpties.

  66. #67 Narad
    October 1, 2015

    So, vaccines worsen underlying mitochondrial disorders, which lead to autism like symptoms?

    Your home-study program at the University of G—le has been woefully inadequate. The idea was that postvaccinal fever could provoke a metabolic crisis and unmask a mitochondrial disorder. Here’s the conclusion from that paper:*

    “These data emphasize the need for larger studies investigating the role of fever, plus coexisting metabolic abnormalities in patients with mitochondrial disease who experience autistic regression. Children with identified mitochondrial diseases are routinely managed carefully by their physicians with aggressive fever control and hydration. In this context, vaccination of children with mitochondrial diseases is recommended. In our experience, the vast majority of patients with mitochondrial diseases receives[**] a full vaccination schedule according to American Academy of Pediatric guidelines without consequences, particularly when physicians are sensitive to fever control and hydration. In our patients with mitochondrial disease and autistic spectrum disorders, the vaccines did not appear related to the neurologic regression. Unfortunately, many children with abnormal development caused by mitochondrial diseases are not diagnosed leaving physicians without management guidelines. Enhanced awareness of the clinical symptoms of mitochondrial diseases among physicians and referral to experts in mitochondrial disease for proper evaluation is important for identification of treatable defects, for genetic counseling, and for incorporation of appropriate management plans into patient care, particularly during periods of fever, infection, and dehydration.”

    Shoffner et al.*** of course point out that it’s a very small N. The thing is that the only person who seems to be trying to run with this is Rossignol (see the previous footnote,
    but change it from being optional if you’re going to start trotting his stuff out). Moreover, that tack would immediately widen your starting point, “So, vaccines worsen underlying mitochondrial disorders, which lead to autism like symptoms?”

    To what extent do you expect random people to be responsible for trying to dredge something specific from your casual word-deposits?

    * A year after the concession in Poling, mind you.
    ** Such jarring errors are almost invariably the result of brain-dead copy editors in my experience, just BTW.
    *** In this context, you really might want to try popping that name into the search box, if it actually does what one would hope after the crack SB technical staff decided to go all bonobo on the site redesign.

  67. #68 Narad
    October 1, 2015

    ^ Regarding my (currently) comment 264, I should have said that the case was conceded, although I presume there was a settlement process.

    Per Jon Poling,

    “Offit confuses issues by comparing Hannah’s case with unrelated decisions in ‘vaccine court.’ The Office of the Secretary of DHHS, through the Department of Justice, conceded Hannah’s case. There was no courtroom hearing and no decision from the ‘unusual vaccine court.'”

  68. #69 Narad
    October 1, 2015

    ^^ More </b> fail; should’ve ended at “conceded.”

  69. #70 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    October 2, 2015

    Scot:

    So, vaccines worsen underlying mitochondrial disorders, which lead to autism like symptoms?

    You fail. Firstly, “autism-like symptoms” is not the same as autism. Secondly, it was ruled that the vaccines may have worsened her condition, not that they did.
    The rest of your comments have already been dismantled.

    You want to label me an anti vaxer, just because I am skeptical and question things.

    No. We label you an anti vaxer because you repeated the lie that courts have ruled that vaccines caused autism. Only one court in the world ruled that, and that verdict was overturned on appeal.
    One last thing.

    I even get the feeling that you are being paid by big pharma to counter all the anti vax people.

    That comment is called the “pharma shill gambit”. If you invoke it, you are antivaccine.

  70. #71 Krebiozen
    October 2, 2015

    Narad,

    “Hannah was compensated by the Vaccine Court”
    No, she wasn’t. The case was withdrawn from the Omnibus and settled.

    I have been confused by this before, I seem to recall. The Special Master in the case wrote (according to Matt Carey at LBRB):

    Based on the persuasive factors supporting petitioner’s vaccine claim and respondent’s election not to challenge petitioner’s claim, the undersigned finds that petitioner is entitled to compensation under the Vaccine Program. Accordingly, a determination of damages is appropriate.

    Isn’t that compensation by the Vaccine Court?

  71. #72 MI Dawn
    October 2, 2015

    @Krebiozen: Hannah’s family was compensated by the Vaccine Court, but not (as originally submitted) as part of the Omnibus proceedings. They were compensated due to her mitochondrial disease worsening after some vaccines with fever. They weren’t compensated for “vaccines causing Hannah’s autism”.

  72. #73 Krebiozen
    October 2, 2015

    MI Dawn,

    They weren’t compensated for “vaccines causing Hannah’s autism”.

    I never intended to suggest they were. I previously missed Narad’s response out at #264 that (if I understand him) it wasn’t the Vaccine Court that awarded the settlement, but the DVIC after a concession by the DHHS, though I don’t really see the distinction. Law is clearly not my forte.

  73. #74 Narad
    October 2, 2015

    Accordingly, a determination of damages is appropriate.

    Isn’t that compensation by the Vaccine Court?

    It’s boilerplate solemnization of a prearranged settlement; the court didn’t really do anything.

  74. #75 MI Dawn
    October 2, 2015

    @Krebiozen: no, I didn’t think you were. I was trying to clarify, and did a rotten job. Law isn’t my thing, either. 🙂

  75. […] of Canada) | The Alleged Autism Epidemic (Science-Based Medicine) | Chelation therapy (Wikipedia) | The CDC Whistleblower William Thompson Appears to Have Gone Full Antivaccine (Respectful Insolence) | Antivaxxers Still Flogging Thimerosal (NeuroLogica) | Has the Government Conceded Vaccines Cause […]

  76. #77 Wendy ARd
    Miami
    October 27, 2015

    One thing is for sure. After reading all of these posts…If a CDC researcher ever found a link between autism and vaccines we would never hear about it. That researcher would be attacked forever by the vaccine zealots and the pharmaceutical industry with unlimited funding. Dr Thompson has done absolutely nothing wrong, yet he is being demonized by the pharmaceutical industry and their “on the take ” puppets in congress who fund the Centers for Disease Control where he is employed. Here’s a guy who is just trying to make the world a better place to live…. and look what it got him. If any reasearcher finds anything wrong with a multibillion dollar a year mass vaccination program, that researcher will be demonized. So meanwhile, while the vaccine is wreaking havoc in the lives of innumerable countries, the pharmaceutical industry continues to make a profit, congressional representative continue to get kickbacks from the pharmaceutical industry and the pharmaceutical industry is totaly protected from litigation by laws passed by their puppets in congress. In a nutshell…we’re all fucked.

  77. #78 herr doktor bimler
    October 27, 2015

    One thing is for sure. After reading all of these posts

    There will be a test after class to make sure that you were paying attention.

  78. #79 Brendan
    October 30, 2015

    Here’s something to chew on. Can anyone here justify why we went from the 1986 schedule of 10 vaccines under the age of 2 all the way up to the 27 the current mandates schedule calls for? Keep in mind that ALL the major diseases were well controlled by that schedule of 10. No one was dying in the streets from any of these diseases, so why the sudden explosion of the schedule??? The only reason I can find that makes any sense is to increase vaccine profits for pharmaceuticals, and here’s why:
    Vaccine makers cut a deal with congress in 1986 that lifted all liability for vaccine injuries. Why did this happen?? Because vaccine makers were getting out of the business due to a string of successful multi-million dollar vaccine injury law suits from the early 80s (14 manufacturers quickly went down to 2). The govt couldn’t do all the R&D and distribution, so they cut the deal that brought us the VICP (Vaccine Injury Compensation Program). A $.75 tax for each vaccine is collected by the vaccine maker and put into the government administered fund and then paid out to vaccine injured individuals (complete with a gag order and no admission of direct responsibility for any damage).
    This seems like a reasonable solution to a difficult issue, until you consider what vaccine makers are: for profit organizations who have consistently and repeatedly distorted science to sell more of their products, and this is in areas where they ARE liable and CAN be directly financially responsible for their actions (see the billions that Johnson&Johnson or GlaxoKleinSmith have paid out recently for completely cooking their studies, among many other things).
    With this in mind, it’s easy to see the next step. After 1986 vaccine makers started producing lots of research showing that 2 or 3 (or 4) shots of a vaccine produced progressively higher uptake rates. This research got presented to the CDC (whose vaccine approval board was populated by anything but impartial players), and by 1994 the schedule was 20 instead of 10, and 27 by 2004.
    Here’s the problem: Based on what all parties already knew about vaccines, that original schedule of 10 vaccinations was capable of producing violent neurological and autoimmune reactions in a small number of individuals. These unfortunate individuals were either dead or required intensive care for the rest of their lives, hence the large sums the VICP pays out to individuals. Increasing that schedule three fold has had predictable results. Since 2011 the VICP has paid out over $1,000,000,000 (yes $1 billion) in direct compensation.
    The first two things on their list of things they compensate for:
    (1) Anaphylaxis and anaphylactic shock. For purposes of paragraph (a) of this section, Anaphylaxis and anaphylactic shock mean an acute, severe, and potentially lethal systemic allergic reaction.
    (2) Encephalopathy. For purposes of paragraph (a) of this section, a vaccine recipient shall be considered to have suffered an encephalopathy only if such recipient manifests, within the applicable period, an injury meeting the description below of an acute encephalopathy
    ( http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/vaccinetable.html )

    To see the compensation numbers, look on page 8 here: http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/vicpmonthlyoctober15.pdf

    Ok, so we know that vaccines can cause severe and traumatic neurological and autoimmune injuries (anaphylaxis is the peak autoimmune injury our bodies can have). One would think there would be lots of research done to determine how and why this is happening, but there is absolutely none, because we, the tax payers, are picking up the injury tab so there’s absolutely no incentive to do anything but find ways to make more vaccines. Instead we see loads of misinformation making the uninformed think we have to choose between 1880’s disease levels or just take every damn shot Merck brews up for us and shut the hell up (the ex-head of the CDC who rammed Gardisil thru took a mandatory 366 day break and then took a job as head of vaccines for Merck…I’m just sayin’).
    So the greater question is for a toxicologist. If we KNOW that vaccines can cause these traumatic reactions, what do we know in general about neurotoxic reactions in the body? Well, it’s pretty simple. Generally there are a few explosive reactions, and then there is an entire bell curve of lower level, sub-acute reactions that can take months or years to manifest. What would we expect to see if a sub-acute, yet destructive neurotoxin were introduced to babies? Probably lots of neurological problems cropping up over a longer time. What are we seeing in our childhood population? 1 in 6 children currently in our school system currently suffers from some kind of neuro-developmental disorder. 1 in 3 suffers from some kind of autoimmune disorder. What are we compensating vaccine injury victims for again??? Oh yeah, neurological and autoimmune damage. Just because there is a flat refusal to do any research on this dynamic doesn’t mean reality isn’t reality (there are about 80,000 kids/year born and not vaccinated…it really wouldn’t be hard to study this). We understand how the body and brain develop and interact with artificially introduced chemicals about as well as surgeons understood an ACL tear in 1975. The problem with doing research on where these very real injuries come from and how to improve the system is that admitting any kind of problem would expose both the govt and vaccine makers to a massive amount of liability and unwanted scrutiny. I respect medical professionals trying to make our lives better, but we are allowing corporate profits to be the primary driver here. Pharmaceuticals are the almost exclusive funder of the AMA, they provide about 80% of the medical research funding, while also populating the CDC and FDA with their shadows. Financial liability is the only thing that really holds them in check in their other ventures (which obviously still isn’t much of a deterrent), but it simply isn’t there with vaccines thanks to the VICP. How would you expect these organizations to behave in this situation?

    Congratulations if you made it thru all that. Feel free to comment, but don’t bother if you’re just going to hate. Remember my basic question: why do we need 27 vaccines when 10 was working just fine. For some of you guys on this blog…wake the hell up you bunch of lick-spittles!!!

  79. #80 Lawrence
    October 30, 2015

    Let’s see – first, you are incorrect. There are no “gag” orders for NVICP claims or settlements. In fact, the only times the records are sealed is when the plaintiffs request that it be done.

    Second, we now immunize for diseases that were around and killing people (or just maiming them) in 1986 – so the jump from 10 to 27 now covers:

    HepB – chronic infections still kill more than 6000 people per year.

    Rotavirus – can cause serious harm or death in infants if not treated

    Hib – very serious childhood disease

    Chicken Pox – killed more than 400 children per year

    Influenza – upwards of 100 or more babies still die each and every year from the Flu

    And of course, Meningitis and Pneumonia vaccines.

    Science marches on – I’m glad that we can now immunize for these diseases which, at minimum, killed hundreds and maimed thousands, each and every year.

    It is quite possible, if the NVICP hadn’t been passed in 1986, that vaccine production might have ended entirely…resulting in the death of thousands.

    Also, we know that the safety and efficacy of vaccines is proven not just by what comes out of the FDA, NIH or CDC, but also by regulatory and educational institutions from all over the world (including countries that aren’t friendly to the US).

    So, do you believe there is a worldwide conspiracy to support vaccines?

  80. #81 MI Dawn
    October 30, 2015

    Well, Brendan, let’s start at the top. We’re protecting against a lot more illnesses now. Children are being protected against Hepatitis A and B, chicken pox (and oh, how I wish that vaccine had been available 3 years earlier – it would have saved my children much misery), rotavirus, etc. We started protecting against the more dangerous/infectious illnesses, and then worked down to the less dangerous but still able to kill/cause hospitalization. But maybe you’ve been lucky and not had children who caught any of those.

    How about statistics to support your numbers? After all, when I was young, children had those problems but were shunted away to institutions, the “retard classes” or just considered slow or problematic children. We’re better at identifying them now. They just aren’t hidden away. Autoimmune disease also existed. People also died younger.

    Vaccine court exists to compensate those who *are* truly injured by vaccines. No one denies it happens. The advantage is, it takes a lot less proof to get money from there than it does if you sue a car manufacturer for injures caused by the seatbelt in an accident.

    And the government agencies named only affect the USA. How do those agencies have any affect in the UK, Australia, Germany, Norway…the list goes on and on.

    Not hating, just asking you for your proof.

  81. #82 Lawrence
    October 30, 2015

    Also, car accidents result in payouts of more than 120 Billion dollars per year to cover injuries and deaths….the NVICP has paid out around $3 Billion dollars over 28 years – which is about $80 Million dollars per year.

    You have a great chance of being struck by lightning, multiple times, than you do of suffering a severe vaccine reaction.

    Also, you claim the research hasn’t been done – yet I can point to dozens, if not hundreds of studies, that have been done to determine any link between vaccines and severe illnesses or death….

    In fact, it was an examination of VAERS data that led to the removal of the first Rotavirus vaccine from the market – which pretty much gives lie to your statement that the FDA / CDC is in the pocket of “Big Pharma.”

  82. #83 MI Dawn
    October 30, 2015

    Also, Brendan, tell me why I have a smallpox vaccine scar but my sister, born 5 years after me, doesn’t.

  83. #84 Lawrence
    October 30, 2015

    And lastly, vaccines are perhaps the most scrutinized biologics on the planet. Not only are they required to pass the standard clinical trials (safety, efficacy, etc), but they are then tracked, post-release, through multiple active and passive surveillance systems, including VAERS and the Vaccine Safety Datalink.

    Research into vaccine safety has also been funded by insurance companies and managed health care companies – both groups having a vested interest in vaccine safety. Yet there studies all show that vaccines are safe and effective.

    Safeminds, a notorious anti-vax group, funded a study on the vaccine schedule, and even it came back saying that vaccines don’t cause the ills that they claimed they did.

    Not hating, just pointing out that your premise is entirely incorrect based on the actual evidence available.

  84. #85 Lawrence
    October 30, 2015

    @MI Dawn – good point. If vaccine manufacturers do a good enough job, they’ll put themselves out of business….

    Meaning, once a disease has been eradicated, there is no need for the vaccine.

  85. #86 MI Dawn
    October 30, 2015

    @Lawrence: I’m wondering if Brendan will come back or if he/she is a drive-by. But if they come back with “smallpox wasn’t eradicated by vaccines, it was renamed/cured by isolation/whatever” I’m going to push for their peer-reviewed proof.

    A really enjoyable book about the CDC and EIS is “Inside the Outbreaks” by Mark Pendergrast. The chapters on the push to eradicate smallpox worldwide are fascinating. Not sure how I feel about the tactics and “end justifies the means” mentality. But I have to say I’m really happy my kids never had to be vaccinated against smallpox!

  86. #87 Chris
    October 30, 2015

    Brenden: “Here’s something to chew on. Can anyone here justify why we went from the 1986 schedule of 10 vaccines under the age of 2 all the way up to the 27 the current mandates schedule calls for? Keep in mind that ALL the major diseases were well controlled by that schedule of 10. No one was dying in the streets from any of these diseases, so why the sudden explosion of the schedule???”

    In 1990 I met a woman whose child that was born in 1987 died before turning age two from the meningitis caused by Hib. Please explain how that disease caused no deaths.

    The year before the varicella vaccine came out, all three of my kids got it. This included a six month old baby, who was in pure misery for almost two weeks.

    Only a sadistic child hater would not want to prevent the diseases that we vaccinate for. Or you are just an idiot. Your choice.

    “If we KNOW that vaccines can cause these traumatic reactions, what do we know in general about neurotoxic reactions in the body? ”

    Though, you can prove you are not an idiot by providing the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers than any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the disease. Remember influenza kills at least a hundred kids per year, as did chicken pox before the vaccine. Also rotavirus accounted for thousand of trips to the hospital and many deaths. So prove yourself, or just be regarded as an idiotic sadistic child hater.

  87. #88 Lawrence
    October 30, 2015

    Given that Smallpox still managed to kill about 400 Million people, just in the 20th Century, I’m really, really happy that it is gone…..just wish the last samples had been incinerated when they had the chance.

  88. #89 Narad
    October 30, 2015

    Vaccine makers cut a deal with congress in 1986 that lifted all liability for vaccine injuries. Why did this happen?? Because vaccine makers were getting out of the business due to a string of successful multi-million dollar vaccine injury law suits from the early 80s

    Do be so kind as to define “a string.”

  89. #90 Lawrence
    October 30, 2015

    It wasn’t “successful” cases – it was the cost of defending against a number of frivolous cases.

  90. #91 JustaTech
    October 30, 2015

    MI Dawn @287: I love that book! One of my infectious diseases professors is in there for his work on the E. coli O157:H7.

    Lawrence @289: Have you read “The Demon in the Freezer” by Richard Preston? (Yes, the Hot Zone guy.) It’s about both the program to eradicate smallpox and the modern research with it.

    One of the most touching stories about smallpox and vaccination is that the man who was the last ever wild case of smallpox spent the rest of his life as a polio vaccination worker.

  91. #92 Chris
    October 30, 2015

    Another interesting book on eradication smallpox is House on Fire: The Fight to Eradicate Smallpox by William H. Foege. He is an epidemiologist who was part of the program (the book is autobiographical). One of the buildings of the medical/biological sciences of the local university is named after him (and he is still alive, and quite active):
    http://www.humanosphere.org/special/2014/06/profile-global-health-prankster-bill-foege/

  92. #93 shay
    lovely Eire, land of amazing breakfasts
    October 30, 2015

    Because 10 vaccines WEREN’T working just fine, Brendan. They didn’t protect kids against illnesses that were at best painful and unpleasant (I was born in 1955 and have first-hand experience of almost all of them) and at worst maimed or killed.

  93. #94 Brian Deer
    October 30, 2015

    And who was the big expert witness in the DTP cases that led to the vaccine act? Dr Geier.

    And subsequently, the entire basis of the lawsuits, and the compensations that arose, have been found to be entirely wrong.

  94. #95 Chris
    October 30, 2015

    And don’t forget the fractured testimony of Gordon Stewart.

  95. #96 Dangerous Bacon
    October 30, 2015

    Brendan, here’s something to chew on before you repeat that falsehood about Congress “lifting all liability” from manufacturers for vaccine injuries:

    http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2013/02/liar-liar-pants-on-fire.html

  96. #97 brian
    October 30, 2015

    @Brian Deer

    Thanks for that, and for this:
    http://briandeer.com/wakefield/dtp-garth.htm

    It’s interesting that anti-vaxxers are so obviously unable to understand the evidence.

    In particular, regarding DTP and compensation for alleged vaccine injuries, it’s long been clear that the cases that are repetitively cited by loons as evidence that the government has long quietly compensated autism-related vaccine injury were actually determined by pre-existing mutations rather than vaccination.

  97. #98 herr doktor bimler
    October 30, 2015

    Feel free to comment, but don’t bother if you’re just going to hate.

    I hope Brendan doesn’t mind “pointing and laughing”.

  98. #99 Narad
    October 31, 2015

    I was thinking about trying to sketch out this history, but ando meio desligado, [1] so I’m just punting.

    There’s a very interesting sourcebook here summarizing the relevant DTP [2] litigation.

    There’s also a law review article from 1990 by Compton & Compton [3] that alludes to Toner and Graham (where I was going to go in the first place, hence this source) but also provides a rather different picture of the situation from NViC’s version of history. [4] This seems to turn upon a House subcommittee report, which happens to be available. [5]

    The rest is left as an exercise for the reader, but one take-home point is that the basic unpredictability of state tort law [6] made federal preemption of some sort nearly inevitable. (I’m going to be even more lazy at this point and just guess that the Bruesewitzes’ “unavoidably unsafe” argument [7] was an angle afforded by specific opportunity in Pennsylvania case law.)

    The only question is its form.

    [1] The reworked official video is an interesting comparison and perhaps closer to the target.
    [2] Because wP wasn’t a toxoid vaccine per se, simple parallelism suggests that this is a better editorial choice than “DPT.”
    [3] Available at h[]tp://lawschool.unm.edu/nmlr/volumes/20/3/02_compton_dpt.pdf; it’s possible to skim or skip the dated liability analysis.
    [4] See http://www.nvic.org/Myths-and-Facts.aspx, particularly under “July 1986.”
    [5] See, e.g., http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/002768801.
    [6] But see Vetri, “Order Out of Chaos: Products Liability Design-Defect Law,” available at http://lawreview.richmond.edu/?p=377 (except the PDF), for a more recent, rosier view.
    [7] Which, again, was rejected by the Supreme Court. A look through the Patterson book will reveal that application of comment k wasn’t exactly uniform. For that matter, I don’t know the degree to which there’s disparity in adoption of the second and third tort Restatements.

  99. #100 Narad
    October 31, 2015

    ^ I knew I forgot something important with the comment in link-moderation.

  100. #101 Alain
    Call of duty
    October 31, 2015

    Hello Team,

    I’m organizing a book club for the 1st of January. First book to be discussed will be Mistakes were made, but not by me.

    Any person interested, ring me a bell at:

    alain.toussaint

    at

    securivm.ca

    Al

  101. #102 brian deer
    October 31, 2015

    @ narad: Don’t get me going on Graham, the famous Geier “I must have missed a zero” case:

    http://briandeer.com/wakefield/dtp-garth.htm

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