Back in December, I took note of the vaccine situation in Texas. First, I pointed out how a new article by Peter Hotez, MD, a pediatrician at Baylor University, had sounded the alarm that the number of schoolchildren with nonmedical exemptions to the Texas school vaccine mandate had skyrocketed by 19-fold over the last 13 or 14 years. As if that weren’t alarming enough, I discussed the resident antivaccine groups in Texas, who had become quite active. I thought that that was probably all I would write about Texas for a while. Silly me. Texas is fast turning into a series of its own, much as I did several posts a few years ago on how the outbreaks would happen in California because of its rising number of nonmedical vaccine exemptions. Then California passed SB 277, which eliminated nonmedical exemptions, and suddenly Texas is the new California.

Don’t believe me? Take a look at an article that was waiting for me in my in box yesterday morning. It’s from The Washington Post and entitled Trump energizes the anti-vaccine movement in Texas. As I like to say, our new President is the gift that keeps on giving when it comes to blogging material, but, really, I could do without all the excitement. Be that as it may, it looks as though antivaxers in Texas are really, really happy that Trump is President:

The group of 40 people gathered at a popular burger and fish taco restaurant in San Antonio listened eagerly to the latest news about the anti-vaccine fight taking place in the Texas legislature.

Some mothers in the group had stopped immunizing their young children because of doubts about vaccine safety. Heads nodded as the woman giving the statehouse update warned that vaccine advocates wanted to “chip away” at parents’ right to choose. But she also had encouraging news.

“We have 30 champions in that statehouse,” boasted Jackie Schlegel, executive director of Texans for Vaccine Choice. “Last session, we had two.”

Now they also have one in the White House.

President Trump’s embrace of discredited theories linking vaccines to autism has energized the anti-vaccine movement. Once fringe, the movement is becoming more popular, raising doubts about basic childhood health care among politically and geographically diverse groups.

I’ve written about Donald Trump’s embrace of antivaccine pseudoscience before. He has a long, sordid history of spewing antivaccine nonsense, both in interviews and on Twitter dating back to 2007. Then, of course, he met with disgraced British antivaccine “scientist” and antivaccine hero Andrew Wakefield during the height of the presidential campaign and, more recently, met with our very own American antivaccine activist, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., purportedly to discuss setting up a “vaccine safety commission.” At least, that’s what RFK, Jr. claimed, although the Trump Administration was quick to say that nothing had been decided and they had really met about—cough, cough, vaccines—autism. Autism or vaccines, though, it was bad enough that Trump would met with a crank as incredibly cranky as RFK Jr. about vaccines or autism. In any case, you can tell that antivaxers are excited. They sense that one of their own—or at least someone with such a lack of scientific acumen and critical thinking skilled coupled with a conspiratorial mindset that he actually believes vaccines cause autism.

We’ve encountered Texans for Vaccine Choice before. As I pointed out at the time, many states have groups like this, but, like Texas, Texans for Vaccine Choice is big, at least bigger and more active than most groups like it. They’re also trying to mobilize antivaxers to act to persuade the legislature to do what they want:

In San Antonio, 80 miles southwest of the state capital, Texans for Vaccine Choice convened a happy hour to encourage attendees to get more involved politically. The event was among dozens of outreach events the group has hosted across the state. The relatively new group has boosted its profile, aided by a savvy social-media strategy, and now leads a contentious fight over vaccines that is gearing up in the current legislative session.

If you wander over to the Texans for Vaccine Choice website, you’ll se that it’s pretty slick and that it also is full of the standard antivaccine talking points and misinformation. For instance, it proudly proclaims that this is about “freedom,” saying that “we promote the preservation of personal liberties and informed consent by opposing measures to limit vaccine choice rights or discriminate against those who exercise such rights. Of course, whenever an antivaxer says “freedom,” what he really means is the “freedom” to expose his child and community to potentially deadly infectious diseases and the “freedom” to use whatever quackery on his child that he so desires. Similarly, when an antivaxer says, “informed consent,” I like to go all Princess Bride on him, saying something like: “Informed. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” The reason, of course, is that the “informing” that antivaxers do and want is to vastly exaggerate the risks of vaccines, even attributing risks to them that are not supported by science, and to downplay the benefits of vaccines.

The worst thing is that, in Texas, the pro-vaccine advocates appear to be losing the battle:

Peter Hotez, director of the Texas Children’s Hospital Center for Vaccine Development, predicts that 2017 could be the year the anti-vaccination movement gains ascendancy in the United States. Texas could lead the way, he said, because some public schools are dangerously close to the threshold at which measles outbreaks can be expected. A third of students at some private schools are unvaccinated.

“We’re losing the battle,” Hotez said.

Although the anti-vaccine movement has been strong in other states, including California, Oregon, Washington and Colorado, experts say the effort in Texas is among the most organized and politically active.

“It’s a great example of an issue that has a targeted, small minority but an intense minority who are willing to mobilize and engage in direct action,” said Mark Jones, a political science professor at Rice University in Houston.

The reason is passion. Consider the story of Jinny Suh, who runs Immunize Texas, a group working to counter the antivaccine message of groups like Texans for Vaccine Choice. She’s fighting a brave battle, but is hopelessly outgunned by Texans for Vaccine Choice:

But immunization advocates like Suh say it’s hard to counter the passion of her opponents. Most people consider vaccinations to be such a basic part of life, like clean drinking water, that it’s hard to motivate them to take time to show up at lawmakers’ offices.

“We’re completely outgunned,” said Suh, adding there are only about a dozen members whom she can call on to show up for events. Immunize Texas is part of the Immunization Project.

Suh often writes emails and posts to the group’s Facebook account from her cellphone while caring for her two sons. She juggles her immunization advocacy, a mostly volunteer gig, with other businesses she runs from home.

And this has always been the problem. Most people really do consider vaccines just a part of life that are in general good for you. They think childhood vaccines are uncontroversial, and, scientifically, they are. As this WP article so nicely summarizes, the evidence that vaccination is not correlated with autism or any of the other disorders, diseases, and bad outcomes that antivaxers attribute to vaccines. It also nicely summarizes how the antivax movement is not, as the common misconception goes, a bunch of hippy dippy, granola-crunching left wingers. After all, this is Texas:

Vaccines aren’t a standard conservative or liberal issue. In many parts of the country, pockets of unimmunized children tend to be in white, upper-middle-class neighborhoods, including in Austin, said Anna Dragsbaek, who heads the Immunization Partnership, a Houston-based immunization advocacy group.

One particularly strong strain of anti-vaccine rhetoric in Texas is libertarian and anti-government. Texans for Vaccine Choice receives help and expertise from “friendly” lawmakers and groups such as Empower Texans, said Jonathan Stickland, a tea party Republican representative from Tarrant County and a key supporter. Political experts consider Empower Texans the state’s most sophisticated and influential conservative organization.

“Our message resonates with people,” said Schlegel, 37, in a brief interview after a day of meetings at the Capitol. “Texans value parental rights,” she said. “We have a message of liberty. We have a message of choice.”

As I’ve said more times than I can remember, antivaccine pseudoscience is an irrationality that appeals to both the right and the left, but for different reasons. On the left, it’s often due to a belief that “natural” is somehow better coupled with distrust of big business, especially big pharma, while on the right it’s “freedom” and anti-government rhetoric. Think of it this way. Political operatives know that people tend to be more passionate when they are against something rather than for something. It’s easier to get them to donate and do stuff to oppose a policy rather than to promote a policy. That was how the Tea Party got started, and we’re seeing what might be the start of a similar passion on the left in response to Donald Trump. So the antivaccine movement in Texas has slick, glossy literature, complete with red, white, and blue emblems to go along with the lies that vaccines aren’t tested adequately for safety and are full of “questionable ingredients” (a.k.a. “toxins”), while Suh doesn’t even have business cards.

They also have a message that resonates in a state like Texas. This might be the most telling passage in the article:

When the group recently sought volunteers on Facebook for “engagement days” at the state Capitol this month and in March, one woman said she wanted to help but was concerned she didn’t know enough about vaccines. Don’t worry, she was told. “Very little talk about vaccines and a LOT of talk about parental rights and CHOICE.”

Just the way Rand Paul said it when he said, “The state doesn’t own the children. Parents own the children, and it is an issue of freedom.” The antivaccine movement is full of this attitude, namely that parental “rights” trump any rights children might have as autonomous beings. The right of the child and any public health considerations are subsumed to parental “freedom to choose” and “parental rights,” with children viewed, in essence, as their parents’ property or an extension of the parents, to do with as they will, never mind what’s actually best for the child.

Here’s what worries me. Traditionally state vaccination policy and school vaccine mandates have been as close to a nonpartisan issue as we have in this country. There has usually been broad bipartisan support for such mandates and the idea that children should be vaccinated in order to attend school. It’s a consensus that has served the country well for many decades now. What I fear is that this consensus is breaking down, and—even worse—school vaccine policies are becoming a partisan issue, every bit as bitter and divided as many others.

I’m not the only one who’s had such fears, too. For instance, Saad Omer and Sarah Despres over at Politico expressed a fear that vaccine policy become as politicized as climate science, noting:

Increased politicization of the vaccination issue would be deadly, because it could spawn new anti-vaccination converts and further insulate the debate from scientific research, potentially lowering immunization rates and increasing the risk of disease. The likelihood of infectious disease outbreaks increases substantially when there is a “critical mass” of unprotected individuals in a community. For most diseases against which we vaccinate, this critical mass is achieved when at least 10 percent-20 percent of the population is un-vaccinated. Therefore, even a 70 percent-30 percent split in public opinion in favor of vaccines could result in an unacceptably low immunization rate. This type of divide will inevitably lead to reduced immunization rates and disease outbreaks. Thousands of people could die. So as the country becomes increasingly divided, we must ensure that vaccine remains on the fringes of both parties.

There’s a bit of false equivalence in the article, such as neglecting to note that powerful mainstream conservative forces in Texas and elsewhere are behind groups like Texans for Vaccine Choice, while there is no equivalent support on the “other side” to match. In essence, Empower Texans is using antivaccine conspiracy theorists like those running Texans for Vaccine Choice as cannon fodder in a larger battle to decrease government regulation and promote far right wing causes. Indeed, that’s why I’m so concerned. What I’ve sensed watching the antivaccine movement since Donald Trump jumped into the race for president is a rightward shift in its preferred politics. Basically, antivaxers love Donald Trump because the sense in him (correctly, I believe) a kindred conspiracy theorist. No, actually, I noticed it before that, with the antivaccine dog whistles about “freedom” and “parental choice” dominating the rhetoric over SB 277. That’s not to say that left wingers don’t have antivaccine dog whistles of their own (I’m talking to you, Jill Stein), but by far the loudest antivaccine dog whistles seem to be coming from the right these day. Yes, I do think a lot of it is due to Donald Trump, but it predates Trump as well. For example, Texans for Vaccine Choice sprang into being in 2015, when in the wake of the Disneyland measles outbreak, the state legislature considered bill like California SB 277.

Sadly, now that we’ve gone down this road, I don’t see a clear path to preventing the further politicization of school vaccine mandates and state vaccine policy. I fear that it might require much bigger outbreaks than we’ve seen thus far before we as a nation come to our senses about vaccines, at least.

Comments

  1. #1 Wzrd1
    February 25, 2017

    Books, that is…

  2. #2 Joseph Hertzlinger
    Planet Earth (for now)
    February 26, 2017

    Texas vaccination rates look okay.

    Besides, the Texas Trump vote was somewhat less than the recent Texas Republican normal.

    • #3 Wzrd1
      February 26, 2017

      Note the second graphic, significant decline states.
      The second map was revised since initial publication on the site, as is annotated on the site.
      I’ll also admit to a yellow-brown deficit in vision, due to a cataract in one eye and some imperfections in vision in the other eye, secondary to posterior lens capsule opacification. Hence, I honestly can’t figure out the two second map color codes apart.
      See Monet’s cataract works for an idea. *

      *While a practice CLEP test on the humanities proved me utterly inhuman, being married to an artist has helped address that deficit and further studies have expanded upon that beachhead of my own ignorance.
      My areas of consuming interest, things military (I am retired US Army, as of late 2009), electronics (CET 2009, industrial electronics, automation, microprocessors and computers), consumer electronic circuitry, electrical engineering, general engineering, computers and networking, computer networks and information security and military medicine. I am a subject matter expert in every one of those fields, save electrical engineering and general engineering, but can converse intelligently with a professional in said fields.
      I’ve also surprised an old Company Commander, who was a genetic researcher, with an interest in murine papillomavirus, with which his medic/driver of the day, had quite an interesting conversation or 50.
      Or more simply, I’m a veritable fountain of useless trivia, right until that trivia becomes important. 😉
      In life, nothing is *really* trivia, eventually, if one lives long enough or has too annoyingly interesting enough life, that trivia can come in handy – even save a life.
      Knowledge gained in a now considered “useless” Cultures class in high school came in handy in Iraq, Qatar, Kuwait, UAE and Afghanistan. Said Cultures class included exposure to various majority religions and their cultural impact.
      Knowledge of “the new math” taught me sets and subsets, as well as order of operands, making untangling nested logic a simple mental exercise.
      I’m also known to play less intelligent than I am, to be better underestimated in physical life, have a skull of infamous density (based upon impact resistance and impact absorption), been mercilessly trained to work around my dyslexia, personally gregarious in the extreme (to the point where people volunteer their problems to me for suggested solutions).
      I’m also a perfect 10 – on the Richter scale.
      I’m also perfectly capable of being a perfect arsehole from hell, when I misjudge the situation, it’s an epic failure and I’ll admit to it.
      But then, screwing up requires one thing; making an attempt to do something.
      As my daily goal is to leave this world a little better than I arrived in it, during atmospheric nuclear testing, unconscionable medical testing that lacked informed consent,
      wonderful things like the Bhophal disaster and Love Canal, NY, various Cold War sins that won’t be discussed beyond the overthrow of the democratic government of Iran and replacement with a corrupt and inept Shah and worse, then add that I’m in my mid-50’s, I’ve got my work cut out for me.
      But, it is my intent, a bit at a time, even a person at a time, to improve this world for one and all.
      Feel free to keep a large, wet trout handy for when I screw up.
      When I’m undecipherable, ask for clarification. It’s likely, that at the time, I was fatigued and dyslexia took hold, as it does when I’m fatigued or otherwise massively challenged.
      I’ll address it as soon as workable, no need to try to address a problem in communication of concepts while already challenged by fatigue or overload.

      Although, I’ll admit that dyslexia has proved one major strength, seeing through camouflage.

      Just a general clarification on an initial, alarming for one member and hence, our good host, miscommunication.

  3. #4 Jill
    February 26, 2017

    Why is autism listed as a possible side effect for certain (MMR) vaccines? Why does the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program – HRSA have a record of reimbursing the parents of children with autism for vaccine injury? Quackery and pseudoscience, you say? Please point me to the longitudinal studies on vaccines and the cumulative effect of the neurotoxins from mercury, aluminums, and formaldehyde on infants and young children based on the current vaccine guidelines. Please, include any studies you know of that test the efficacy and risks of the suggested vaccines and any references to the warnings for possible side effects included in the packaging.

    • #5 vinu arumugham
      United States
      February 26, 2017

      Jill,

      There’s more.

      Cow’s milk contaminated Tdap is administered to every pregnant woman to protect the newborn against pertussis. As described in the article below, Tdap can cause the synthesis of folate receptor autoantibodies (FRAA).

      Autism Spectrum Disorders: A special case of vaccine-induced cow’s milk allergy?

      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313524429_Autism_Spectrum_Disorders_A_special_case_of_vaccine-induced_cow%27s_milk_allergy?ev=prf_pub

      Such maternal FRAA bind to folate receptors in the fetal brain, block folate uptake and affect brain development. Similarly, they can also block folate uptake to the fetal thyroid gland and affect thyroid development.

      Maternal FRAA in breast milk can continue the damage in the newborn. A vaccine schedule with numerous cow’s milk contaminated vaccines can cause the child to begin synthesizing FRAA.

      So Mom can synthesize FRAA. The child can synthesize FRAA. Or both. This can explain the spectrum in Autism Spectrum Disorders.

      Maternal FRAA associated ASD may be mistaken as having a genetic origin when in fact vaccines are still to blame.

      Would the following preventive measures help until the vaccines are cleaned up?

      Pregnant women should be tested for FRAA and IgE to folate receptor protein.

      If positive, they should avoid cow’s milk to reduce FRAA levels.

      Folinic acid treatment for pregnant/lactating women?

      Delay administering cow’s milk contaminated vaccines to the newborn until cow’s milk is introduced in the diet? Thus reducing the risk of synthesizing IgE (and eventually FRAA) to cow’s milk proteins.

      Thyroid dysfunction in children with autism spectrum disorder is associated with
      folate receptor alpha autoimmune disorder

      http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jne.12461/epdf

      Folinic acid improves verbal communication in children with autism and language impairment: a randomized double-blind placebo-controlled trial

      http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/mp2016168a.html

      Medical muddles that maim our children with allergies, asthma and autism
      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313918596_Medical_muddles_that_maim_our_children_with_allergies_asthma_and_autism?ev=prf_pub

    • #6 vinu arumugham
      United States
      February 26, 2017
  4. #7 Jay
    February 26, 2017

    “maternal FRAAs could affect the development of the thyroid”
    Meaning, autoimmunity causes the thyroid defect.”

    Love how Vinu’s “proofs” require interpreting every word in the sentence as something else .

    “If you bothered to read my articles, you will find numerous peer reviewed published references to works by numerous researchers.”

    Nearly all twisted far beyond their original meaning

    “Dr.Frye found it very interesting”

    I bet he did, isn’t that the common response when dealing with lunatics, children and con artists. 😀

    “If you dispute any, be specific and provide the appropriate scientific reference.”

    Been done already, you don’t understand the science or the history of what you are dealing with (vaccines).
    You post irrelevant links that don’t mean what you say they mean, when pointed out you go straight into a hissy fit and
    spam the same derided “research” you paid to have published.

    Why not go study some actual science, before you get someone killed? Or at least give your “followers” on here your excuse for lack of science qualifications.

    • #8 vinu arumugham
      United States
      February 26, 2017

      Why have you been unable to post a randomized controlled trial demonstrating the safety of milk protein contaminated vaccines?
      IgE mediated allergy to ANY vaccine component can take a few weeks to develop. Upon continued exposure, it will take even longer for IgG4 to develop. Show us the studies with such extensive follow up including assessment of antibody levels.
      Otherwise, the vaccine safety claims are bogus.

      • #9 Jay
        February 26, 2017

        Classic Vinu, no response to the many matters at hand. Just a redirect to more rubbish “research”.

        “Why have you been unable to post a randomized controlled …”

        What a fuk3d up question is that? Maybe because I didn’t even know I had a duty to produce such. Ya big raging weirdo.

        Tell you what, hold on. I’ve got some milk, just need some disposable kids, a pint of vaccine and a bucket. Three weeks you say, get you a report in four weeks. You hold up all global vaccination programs till I’m done right. 😉

        • #10 vinu arumugham
          United States
          February 26, 2017

          I’ll take that as an admission that no such randomized controlled trial has been performed. So, vaccine safety claims are bogus.

          • #11 Wzrd1
            February 26, 2017

            No, your claims are rubbish. Indeed, in every citation that you provided, quotes you made from the paper were conspicuous by their absence.

          • #12 vinu arumugham
            United States
            February 26, 2017

            Please post a randomized controlled trial as I described before.

          • #13 Jay
            February 27, 2017

            Yawn, you maka de claim you stump up da evidence. You know the drill you’ve been here long enough.

            Oh yes and:

            give your “followers” on here your excuse for lack of science qualifications.

          • #14 vinu arumugham
            United States
            February 27, 2017

            You are one who claims vaccine are safe. So please provide the evidence. Injected food proteins causing food allergy and asthma is not my idea. It is taught to every doctor in medical school. So, if you claim vaccines are safe, show us the studies demonstrating the safety of injecting food protein contaminated vaccines. The real studies that ACTUALLY looks at food protein effects, not the the bogus ones that ignore the food protein effects.

            Medical Immunology notes from the University of California, Irvine, School of Medicine.

            http://jeeves.mmg.uci.edu/immunology/CoreNotes/Chap21.pdf

            pg. 157:

            “A guinea pig can be sensitized by intramuscular injection of an antigen, say OVA (ovalbumin). Its immune system responds by producing antibody to OVA, including (but not
            exclusively) IgE. Some of this circulating IgE will be fixed onto mast cells in various tissues, including the vasculature and respiratory tract. Three weeks later, the same animal can be challenged either with an intravenous dose of OVA or by exposure to an aerosol containing OVA. Following IV injection, the animal will rapidly develop severe vascular shock and die within a few minutes (the combination of venule constriction and capillary dilation results in pooling of blood in the peripheral circulation and a drastic drop in blood pressure). If exposed to the aerosol, it will equally rapidly die from bronchial constriction, an experimental model for human asthma.”

    • #15 vinu arumugham
      United States
      February 26, 2017

      Let’s look at the “evidence” behind the ACIP’s recommendation to vaccinate pregnant women with Tdap:
      https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6207a4.htm

      “The effectiveness and optimal concentration of maternal antipertussis antibodies in newborns are not yet known”

      “likely confer protection and might prevent pertussis”

      “kinetics in pregnant women likely would be similar”

      “Based on the model, Tdap vaccination during pregnancy might prevent”

      “a postpartum dose might prevent ”

      Might, likely, might, unlikely … that’s the evidence they have.
      It’s assumptions and more assumptions.
      The evidence I provide is way stronger than anything the ACIP has provided.

      • #16 Wzrd1
        February 26, 2017

        Physics papers discussing physics also use the words may, might, probable, etc.
        That doesn’t mean that I’m about to reject relativity and gravitation and play tag with a black hole.

        For someone claiming to be a researcher, you’re shockingly unknowledgable about how papers are written, as to the use of phrasing.
        You continue to amaze me!

  5. #17 Antaeus Feldspar
    February 26, 2017

    Why is autism listed as a possible side effect for certain (MMR) vaccines?

    It isn’t.

    It appears in a list of adverse events observed in some people after vaccination. So do pregnancy, broken arms, motor vehicle accidents, domestic violence and drownings. The list of adverse events is not a list of side effects.

  6. #18 Jay
    February 26, 2017

    Hi Jill, interesting set of questions there, I’ll do my best.

    “Why is autism listed as a possible side effect for certain (MMR) vaccines?”

    If this is from a package insert then it’s because it was once considered possible. Probably to be removed once they update the insert.

    “Why does the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program – HRSA have a record of reimbursing the parents of children with autism for vaccine injury?”

    Could you show this record and be specific, kids with autism can then get a vaccine injury, especially as autism can come with co-morbidities. Truth of the matter is that autism is not a vaccine table injury.

    “Please point me to the longitudinal studies on vaccines…”

    To fulfil this brief would take weeks, these things are built on studies on top of studies, from across the globe. Go google Cuba’s vaccination safety studies for a good starter.

    “test the efficacy and risks of the suggested vaccines and any references to the warnings for possible side effects included in the packaging”

    This link should answer most of that https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/research/iomreports/index.html

    Bear in mind that the info is a bit outdated, some of the side effects have recently potentially been attributed to other non vaccine related causes. eg. Dravet Syndrome.

  7. #19 Antaeus Feldspar
    February 26, 2017

    Why does the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program – HRSA have a record of reimbursing the parents of children with autism for vaccine injury?

    Because otherwise, the condition of “vaccine injury or perceived vaccine injury” would have to be completely protective against all autism spectrum disorders.

    They have never compensated for autism; the closest they have come is cases like Ryan Mojabi, where the family came to the court saying “we think he has an ASD, and we think it was caused by the vaccine” and the court says “your story doesn’t really add up, and we’re not even convinced that what he has is an ASD, but we do see he has something and it’s possible enough that it might have been caused by the vaccine that we’ll compensate it.”

    Show me that you can understand these two points, or there’s no reason to discuss the more complicated subject of “what do safety studies on vaccines say?”

  8. #20 Jay
    February 26, 2017

    “They have never compensated for autism; the closest they have come is cases like Ryan Mojabi”

    Cheers, I knew there was one, but couldn’t remember any of the details.

    One of the reasons why I don’t particularly trust vaccine safety stories from the USA is the litigation culture you guys have going on over there. That’s why I suggest looking to other countries like Cuba, where they haven’t a financial incentive to claim injury (I assume).

  9. #21 brian
    February 26, 2017

    Why is autism listed as a possible side effect for certain (MMR) vaccines?

    I think that you’ve been confused by poorly-informed anti-vaccine activists.

    Autism was listed as an adverse event that was reported to have occurred after receipt of the Tripedia DTaP (not MMR) vaccine. As directed by FDA, package inserts must contain such information from post-marketing surveillance even though there is no evidence of causality. Note, for example, that the Tripedia package insert also lists Sudden Infant Death Syndrome as an adverse event that, like autism, was reported after vaccination, even though (1) SIDS deaths are–by definition–NOT attributed to a specific cause (like vaccination) and (2) SIDS deaths were actually less frequent in vaccinated than in unvaccinated children.

  10. #22 Chris Preston
    February 26, 2017

    I’ll take that as an admission that no such randomized controlled trial has been performed.

    No randomized controlled trial has been conducted, because there is no evidence indicating that this is actually a problem. Therefore, there would be no chance of getting ethics approval.

    • #23 vinu arumugham
      United States
      February 26, 2017

      Chris,
      “No randomized controlled trial has been conducted, because there is no evidence indicating that this is actually a problem.”

      Sorry, that is incorrect. Injecting food proteins causing the development of allergy and asthma is taught to every doctor in medical school.

      Injecting food proteins causing the development of allergy has been known for more than a hundred years. Before you dismiss that as irrelevant hundred year old stuff, I would like to point out that Grimshaw et al. is a 2017 allergy paper that starts off with the 1906 concept of allergen priming. So perfectly relevant today.

      All of that is covered in detail here:
      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313918596_Medical_muddles_that_maim_our_children_with_allergies_asthma_and_autism?ev=prf_pub

      So thanks for admitting that a real vaccine safety problem has never been studied. Just like the ACIP Tdap/pregnancy example I provided, vaccine safety is an assumption. There is no science behind vaccine safety claims.

  11. #24 guy hrushka
    America
    February 27, 2017

    What America lacks is an unbiased medical evaluation on things like vaccines. Common sense is a key commodity that is lacking. Of course vaccines are a lot more harmful than is reported. Think a little about that people! Some vaccines have a place in our world but not like anything we’ve seen in the last few decades. Follow the money!

    • #25 vinu arumugham
      United States
      February 27, 2017

      You hit the nail on the head.

  12. #26 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    February 27, 2017

    @guy hrushka:

    What America lacks is an unbiased medical evaluation on things like vaccines.

    There have been numerous studies done on vaccines, many by countries that are quite hostile to the U.S. Those countries also mandate vaccination.

    Of course vaccines are a lot more harmful than is reported.

    Supporting evidence required for this assertion.

    Some vaccines have a place in our world but not like anything we’ve seen in the last few decades.

    Very well. Which ones would you remove from the current schedule/s and why?

    Follow the money!</blockquote.
    This is actually an argument for vaccines. The cost of two hundred MMRs is vastly cheaper than dealing with the hospitalisations that would result if MMR was removed. In addition, Medical Aids pay for their clients to be vaccinated. To them, it’s cheaper than treating the disease.

    • #27 vinu arumugham
      United States
      February 28, 2017

      “Very well. Which ones would you remove from the current schedule/s and why?”

      There are reports that mumps infections in the MMR vaccinated population are milder. So we should study the possibility of reducing the 5 dose DTap series to 1 or 2 doses with the goal of letting children suffer milder wild infections.

  13. #28 Jay
    February 27, 2017

    Wzrd1 ” you’re shockingly unknowledgable about how papers are written, as to the use of phrasing2

    Yup we are talking about a man, who sees something happening once, to two people, screams PROOF.

    Do you reckon it could be psychological?

  14. #29 Dangerous Bacon
    February 27, 2017

    guy: “Follow the money!”

    How much would it cost now if we had to treat 500,000 to 750,000 cases of measles every year (as was common in the 1950s)? Do those who want us to stop vaccinating and go back to “the good old days” own stock in drug companies and hospital corporations?*

    Follow the money!

    *not to mention the Batesville Casket Company.

  15. #30 Jay
    February 27, 2017

    “Let’s look at the “evidence” behind the ACIP’s recommendation to vaccinate pregnant women with Tdap:”

    Yes let’s:

    Safety of Repeat Tdap Administration to Pregnant Women
    In 2011, ACIP concluded that available data did not suggest any elevated frequency or unusual patterns of adverse events in pregnant women who received Tdap and that the few serious adverse events reported were unlikely to have been caused by the vaccine; at that time, a dose of Tdap for every pregnancy was not considered (9). Published data on receipt of 2 doses of Tdap and multiple doses of tetanus toxoid–containing vaccines were reviewed. Receipt of a second dose of Tdap at a 5- or 10-year interval in healthy nonpregnant adolescents and adults was well tolerated; injection site pain was the most commonly reported adverse event (9,17–20). The frequency of reported adverse events for the second dose was similar to the first dose in these same subjects and in naïve controls receiving Tdap for the first time. Of the few serious adverse events reported, none were attributed to the vaccine. Fever was reported in 2.4%–6.5% of recipients of a Tdap booster; the frequency of fever was similar to that in the same subjects after their first Tdap dose and in naïve controls (9,17–19). Studies on short intervals (i.e., within 21 days or ≤2 years) between receipt of tetanus and diphtheria toxoids (Td) and Tdap or Tdap-inactivated polio vaccine in healthy, nonpregnant adolescents and adults found no serious adverse events (21–23). Fever was reported in 1.7%–6.8% of subjects who received Tdap ≤2 years after Td; rates were comparable to the control group and to cohorts that received Tdap longer after receipt of Td (21,22). The number of subjects in these studies was small, and therefore, the findings do not rule out the possibility of rare but serious adverse events.
    A theoretical risk exists for severe local reactions (e.g., Arthus reactions, whole limb swelling) for pregnant women who have multiple closely spaced pregnancies. Arthus reactions and whole limb swelling are hypersensitivity reactions that have been associated with vaccines containing tetanus toxoid, tetanus and diphtheria toxoids, and/or pertussis antigens. Historical data on multiple doses of Td and tetanus toxoid vaccines (TT) indicate that hypersensitivity was associated with higher levels of preexisting antibody (24–26). The frequency of side effects depended on antigen content, product formulation, preexisting antibody levels related to the interval since last dose, and the number of doses (24–26). Challenges to reviewing historical data on multiple doses of TT and Td include differences in adjuvant and toxoid amounts in vaccines over time and severity of adverse events by number of vaccines received (24–26). Most of the data are historical, and the risk for severe adverse events likely has been reduced with current formulations that contain lower doses of TT.
    TT and Td have been used extensively in pregnant women worldwide to prevent neonatal tetanus; large studies on use of TT during pregnancy have not reported clinically significant severe adverse events (27–30). Safety data on use of Td during multiple pregnancies have not been published. ACIP believes the potential benefit of preventing pertussis morbidity and mortality in infants outweighs the theoretical concerns of possible severe adverse events.
    ACIP concluded that experience with tetanus-toxoid containing vaccines suggests no excess risk for severe adverse events for women receiving Tdap with every pregnancy. ACIP stated the need for safety studies of severe adverse events when Tdap is given during subsequent pregnancies. Plans for safety monitoring in pregnant women following Tdap administration include enhanced monitoring in Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) and utilizing the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) to assess acute adverse events, adverse pregnancy outcomes affecting the mother, and birth outcomes; assessing risks for rare adverse events in pregnant women after Tdap will require data collection for several years (31).

    • #31 vinu arumugham
      February 28, 2017

      “few serious adverse events reported were unlikely to have been caused by the vaccine”

      Because?Thanks for posting more assumptions of the ACIP.

      • #32 Jay
        February 28, 2017

        Vinu did you actually changed the wordage from:

        “Of the few serious adverse events reported, none were attributed to the vaccine”

        To:

        ““few serious adverse events reported were unlikely to have been caused by the vaccine”

        Because “Thanks for posting more assumptions of the ACIP” is wildly inappropriate, when they said “none”.

        Is this your problem Vinu, that your mind jumbles what you read to suit your prejudices?

        • #33 vinu arumugham
          United States
          February 28, 2017

          Please check twice, accuse once.
          I quoted lines 3,4 from your post. This time below with more context:
          “Tdap and that the few serious adverse events reported were unlikely to have been caused by the vaccine;”

          You are referring to a different part.

          • #34 Jay
            March 1, 2017

            Nice snark, but did not accuse, I asked question. There be a difference.

  16. #35 Jay
    February 27, 2017

    And whiles we are at it, all the research:

    “Booy R, Van der Meeren O, Ng SP, Celzo F, Ramakrishnan G, Jacquet JM. A decennial booster dose of reduced antigen content diphtheria, tetanus, acellular pertussis vaccine (Boostrix(tm)) is immunogenic and well tolerated in adults. Vaccine 2010;29:45–50.
    Tomovici A, Barreto L, Zickler P, et al. Humoral immunity 10 years after booster immunization with an adolescent and adult formulation combined tetanus, diphtheria, and 5-component acellular pertussis vaccine. Vaccine 2012;30:2647–53.
    Terranella A, Asay G, Messonnier M, Clark T, Liang J. Preventing infant pertussis: a decision analysis comparing prenatal vaccination to cocooning. Presented at the 49th Infectious Diseases Society of America Annual Meeting, Boston, MA; October 20–23, 2011.
    CDC. FastStats: births and natality. Atlanta, GA: US Department of Health and Human Services, CDC; 2013.
    CDC. Summary of health indicators. 2010 Pregnancy Nutrition Surveillance, Pregnancy Nutrition Surveillance System. Atlanta, GA: US Department of Health and Human Services, CDC; 2011. Available at
    US Census
    Halperin SA, McNeil S, Langley J, et al. Tolerability and antibody response in adolescents and adults revaccinated with tetanus toxoid, reduced diphtheria toxoid, and acellular pertussis vaccine adsorbed (Tdap) 4–5 years after a previous dose. Vaccine 2011;29:8459–65.
    Halperin SA, Scheifele D, De Serres G, et al. Immune responses in adults to revaccination with a tetanus toxoid, reduced diphtheria toxoid, and acellular pertussis vaccine 10 years after a previous dose. Vaccine 2012;30:974–82.
    Knuf M, Vetter V, Celzo F, Ramakrishnan G, Van Der Meeren O, Jacquet JM. Repeated administration of a reduced-antigen-content diphtheria-tetanus-acellular pertussis and poliomyelitis vaccine (dTpa-IPV; Boostrix(tm) IPV). Hum Vaccin 2010;6:554–61.
    Mertsola J, Van Der Meeren O, He Q, et al. Decennial administration of a reduced antigen content diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis vaccine in young adults. Clin Infect Dis 2010;51:656–62.
    Halperin SA, Sweet L, Baxendale D, et al. How soon after a prior tetanus-diphtheria vaccination can one give adult formulation tetanus-diphtheria-acellular pertussis vaccine? Pediatr Infect Dis J 2006;25:195–200.
    Beytout J, Launay O, Guiso N, et al. Safety of Tdap-IPV given one month after Td-IPV booster in healthy young adults: a placebo-controlled trial. Hum Vaccin 2009;5:315–21.
    Talbot EA, Brown KH, Kirkland KB, Baughman AL, Halperin SA, Broder KP. The safety of immunizing with tetanus-diphtheria-acellular pertussis vaccine (Tdap) less than 2 years following previous tetanus vaccination: experience during a mass vaccination campaign of healthcare personnel during a respiratory illness outbreak. Vaccine 2010;28:8001–7.
    Edsall G, Elliott MW, Peebles TC, Eldred MC. Excessive use of tetanus toxoid boosters. JAMA. 1967;202:111–3.
    Levine L, Ipsen J Jr, McComb JA. Adult immunization. Preparation and evaluation of combined fluid tetanus and diphtheria toxoids for adult use. Am J Hyg 1961;73:20–35.
    Wassilak SGF, Roper MH, Murphy TV, Orenstein WA. Tetanus toxoid. In: Plotkin S, Orenstein W, Offit P, eds. Vaccines. 5th ed. Philadelphia, PA: Elsevier; 2008:745–81.
    Schofield FD, Tucker VM, Westbrook GR. Neonatal tetanus in New Guinea. Effect of active immunization in pregnancy. Br Med J 1961;2:785–9.
    Newell, KW, Dueñas Lehmann, Leblanc DR, Garces Osoria N. The use of toxoid for the prevention of tetanus neonatorum. Final report of a double-blind controlled field trial. Bull World Health Organ 1966;35:863–71.
    Hardegree MC, Barile MF, Pittman M, Schofield FD, Maclennan R, Kelly A. Immunization against neonatal tetanus in New Guinea: 2. Duration of primary antitoxin responses to adjuvant tetanus toxoids and comparison of booster responses to adjuvant and plain toxoids. Bull World Health Organ 1970;43:439–51.
    MacLennan R, Schofield FD, Pittman M, Hardegree MC, Barile MF. Immunization against neonatal tetanus in New Guinea. Antitoxin response of pregnant women to adjuvant and plain toxoids. Bull World Health Organ 1965;32:683–97.
    Zheteyeva YA, Moro PL, Tepper NK, et al. Adverse event reports after tetanus toxoid, reduced diphtheria toxoid, and acellular pertussis vaccines in pregnant women. Am J Obstet Gynecol 2012;207:59.e1-7.
    Kirkland KB, Talbot EA, Decker MD, Edwards KM. Kinetics of pertussis immune responses to tetanus-diphtheria-acellular pertussis vaccine in health care personnel: implications for outbreak control. Clin Infect Dis 2009;49:584–7.
    Halperin BA, Morris A, Mackinnon-Cameron D, et al. Kinetics of the antibody response to tetanus-diphtheria-acellular pertussis vaccine in women of childbearing age and postpartum women. Clin Infect Dis 2011;53:885–92.

    • #36 vinu arumugham
      United States
      February 28, 2017

      I just picked the first study:

      Booy R, Van der Meeren O, Ng SP, Celzo F, Ramakrishnan G, Jacquet JM. A decennial booster dose of reduced antigen content diphtheria, tetanus, acellular pertussis vaccine (Boostrix(tm)) is immunogenic and well tolerated in adults. Vaccine 2010;29:45–50.

      “In this study, specific symptoms were solicited using diary cards for 4 days (day 0–3) after vaccination. Solicited symptoms included pain, redness and swelling at the injection site and general symptoms of fever (axillary temperature ≥37.5 °C), headache, fatigue and gastrointestinal symptoms.”

      Typical of a bogus vaccine safety study.

      If the patients developed IgG4 to milk proteins contaminating the vaccine, it would asymptomatic. But a woman who produces IgG4 to bovine folate receptor proteins in milk, could give birth to an autistic child.

      The current vaccine safety studies DON’T EVEN COME CLOSE to what we need.

      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313524429_Autism_Spectrum_Disorders_A_special_case_of_vaccine-induced_cow%27s_milk_allergy?ev=prf_high

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3578948/
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2715943/

      • #37 Jay
        February 28, 2017

        Sorry to pop your bubble Vinu, the point at hand was that you said there was no science to the issue of TDap vaccine.

        There obviously is, as shown. Demonstrating your BS to all the readers here present.

        Jebus, I’ve just had a delve, the sheer quantity…

        • #38 vinu arumugham
          United States
          February 28, 2017

          “Sorry to pop your bubble Vinu, the point at hand was that you said there was no science to the issue of TDap vaccine.”

          Incompetently designed studies that don’t even look at the relevant evidence, and the draw the wrong conclusions is what you call science?

          • #39 Jay
            March 1, 2017

            Yawn, who are you to judge the work of qualified scientists? You’re no Orac, you are just copying his style hoping some of the magic will rub off.

            Go back to Cisco, you won’t kill anyone that way.

          • #40 vinu arumugham
            March 2, 2017

            “who are you to judge the work of qualified scientists?”

            Every doctor is taught in medical school that injecting allergens causes allergies and asthma. These “scientists” either forgot or ignored what they were taught. Either way, that disqualifies them for that job.

          • #41 Jay
            March 2, 2017

            Nobody then

  17. #42 Narad
    February 27, 2017

    Oh yes and:

    give your “followers” on here your excuse for lack of science qualifications.

    He’s a med student, as well documented at Medscape.

  18. #43 ハルート
    February 27, 2017

    You americans are not good people. We all know in japan that vaccines can kill babies.

    People here are arguing for crimes of drug corporation.

    • #44 Dorit Reiss
      February 27, 2017

      Whooping cough, diphtheria, pertussis and measles can all kill babies. Horribly.

      Vaccines are very safe. Yes, very rarely can be a severe allergic reaction, or other problems, but that’s very rare, and deaths even more so.

      Nobody wants babies to die. That’s a strong reason to vaccinate.

  19. #45 Jay
    February 27, 2017

    Ah, thought I’d seen you referring to him as a failed med student and assumed that was from a while ago.

    So we are basically arguing with a child,,, well in my defence, have hurled multiple accusations of insanity.

    This does change things a bit, for a start how is he going to pass his dissertation, when he misrepresents his sources the way he does? Oh well, that’s his problem. 🙂

  20. #46 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    February 27, 2017

    So Lawrence says

    I love the fact that Vinu continues to quote himself, as if he’s the expert in the field….

    I responded with –

    He has to believe in himself. Nobody else does.

    Which led Vinu to ejaculate –

    If you bothered to read my articles, you will find numerous peer reviewed published references to works by numerous researchers.

    Yes, I agree that you have cited many and varied sources, and as has been pointed out, they seldom, if ever, say what you claim they say. But my point is that nobody cites your work.

    Except that isn’t totally true. See –
    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Vinu_Arumugham/publications

    It seems that your work has been cited 6 times. Who would do such a thing?

    Well, it turns out that the only place your “publications” are cited are in your own work. Nobody else on the freakin’ planet seems to think your “work” is worth referencing.

    This should give you a clue. I don’t think it will.

  21. #47 Dangerous Bacon
    February 27, 2017

    “You americans are not good people.”

    In response, I can only say:

    あなたは異性嫌いなばかだ

  22. #48 Chris
    February 27, 2017

    Is this Travis: “We all know in japan that vaccines can kill babies.”

    Uh, huh. From Measles vaccine coverage and factors related to uncompleted vaccination among 18-month-old and 36-month-old children in Kyoto, Japan:

    In Japan, measles vaccine coverage has remained low, and either small or moderate outbreaks have occurred repeatedly in communities. According to an infectious disease surveillance (2000), total measles cases were estimated to be from 180,000 to 210,000, and total deaths were estimated to be 88 [11,12]. Measles cases are most frequently observed among non-immunized children, particularly between 12 to 24 months.

    Oh, and then there was this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15889991

    The abstract says:

    An antivaccine movement developed in Japan as a consequence of increasing numbers of adverse reactions to whole-cell pertussis vaccines in the mid-1970s. After two infants died within 24 h of the vaccination from 1974 to 1975, the Japanese government temporarily suspended vaccinations. Subsequently, the public and the government witnessed the re-emergence of whooping cough, with 41 deaths in 1979. This series of unfortunate events revealed to the public that the vaccine had, in fact, been beneficial.

    What have we learned here? Well, for one thing do not make the same mistakes as Japan. And another thing is to base public health policies an actual science and not politics.

  23. #49 ハルート
    Kobe
    February 27, 2017

    In my country, we know what mercury can do to people. We have laws against mercury in the water.

    This is the baddest thing to use in vaccines.

    @Dangerous Bacon
    I hope Godzilla eats you.

    • #50 Wzrd1
      February 27, 2017

      In my country, we know what mercury can do to people. We have laws against mercury in the water.

      Yet you eat fish species that are lousy with mercury.
      Actually, not likely, I frankly think that you’re as Japanese as my Sicilian grandparents were.
      Having friends from Honshu, I know a few things. One, your phraseology isn’t consistent with a native Japanese speaker’s use of English. Two, no self-respecting Japanese would say “I hope Godzilla eats you.”. Ever.
      Not even JDF service members who were too deep into their cups to stand up straight.*

      *My fault, as I was buying the drinks. 🙂

  24. #51 Lawrence
    February 27, 2017

    Yeah, sounds like Travis.

    Because no one from Japan would use the term “Godzilla.”

    Its “Gojira.”

  25. #52 Chris
    February 27, 2017

    In Japan at least 88 kids died from not getting an MMR. No version of an MMR vaccine has ever contained thimerosal.

    Go away Travis Schwochert from Endeavor, Wisconsin.

  26. #53 Narad
    February 27, 2017

    Ah, thought I’d seen you referring to him as a failed med student and assumed that was from a while ago.

    He was never any sort of med student; he works (or worked) as a midlevel grunt for Cisco. But his sense of entitlement was such that he pretended to be a med student when commening at Medscape. I don’t have time to go back through the stuff at the moment.

  27. #54 ハルート
    February 27, 2017

    I once caught a fish with 3 eyeballs in Minamata Bay, thanks to Mercury.

    • #55 Wzrd1
      February 27, 2017

      I once caught a fish with 3 eyeballs in Minamata Bay, thanks to Mercury.

      Big deal, I caught a fish with four eyes, thanks to Gemini.
      You should’ve saw what Apollo brought out!

  28. #56 Chris Preston
    Australia
    February 27, 2017

    Sorry, that is incorrect. Injecting food proteins causing the development of allergy and asthma is taught to every doctor in medical school.

    Le sigh.

    Reading. It is a skill worth cultivating.

  29. #57 herr doktor bimler
    February 27, 2017

    Injecting food proteins causing the development of allergy and asthma is taught to every doctor in medical school.

    Wait, what? Doctors in medical school are taught how to develop allergy and asthma by injecting food proteins?
    Vinu is confused. That’s what we’re taught at mad scientist school.

  30. #58 Gilbert
    February 27, 2017

    ハルート, mercury is nasty.

  31. #59 Jay
    February 27, 2017

    “But his sense of entitlement was such that he pretended to be a med student when commening at Medscape. ”

    Lol.

    No worries Narad, I’m sure I’ll stumble across it, when I delve into the archives.

  32. #60 JustaTech
    February 27, 2017

    In case I’d missed in the voluminous ramblings of vinu:

    Has vinu ever shown any evidence at all whatsoever of cow’s milk proteins in vaccines?

    (And no, the known eggs in the flu vaccine are not evidence of cow’s milk.)

  33. #62 herr doktor bimler
    February 27, 2017

    It seems that your work has been cited 6 times. Who would do such a thing?
    Well, it turns out that the only place your “publications” are cited are in your own work.

    I’m actually surprised that the parasitical-publishing scammers and their write-only journal-shaped dumpsters like “Journal of Developing Drugs” don’t offer a citation service — for a doubling of the original publication price — where they generate on-line papers that are completely meaningless, but nevertheless cite one’s otherwise-unread opuscule. Like paying for twitter-bot followers.

  34. #63 Lawrence
    February 28, 2017

    Oh, I’ve managed to piss Travis off….what fun.

    • #64 Jay
      February 28, 2017

      Fair play Lawrence, I share your joy.

      Though I am slightly concerned that Travis might* be one of those described as “cucks” or “Sisies”.

      You know the ones who seem to enjoy being humiliated.

      You could be saving him the expense of having his balls stamped on by aged prostitute. 😀

      * definitely is lol

  35. #65 JustaTech
    February 28, 2017

    vinu @57: Thank you for providing that information. Based on my very quick searching it looks like these vaccines are still in use.
    So now 6 questions:
    Is it possible to grow the components of these vaccines without bovine-derived materials?
    Is there evidence (clinical or epidemiological) that the administration of these vaccines induces casein allergy?
    Per 1,000 children vaccinated, how many will develop a casein allergy due to the vaccine and not other processes?
    Per 1,000 children vaccinated, how many will *die* of a vaccine-induced casein allergy?
    If these vaccines were removed from the market today, how many children would contract tetanus or pertussis?
    How many of the children who contract tetanus or pertussis would die?

    • #66 vinu arumugham
      United States
      February 28, 2017

      Is it possible to grow the components of these vaccines without bovine-derived materials?

      Until the vaccine establishment stops denying the evidence of the problem and admits that the problem exists, why will they look for alternatives? Necessity is the mother of invention.

      Is there evidence (clinical or epidemiological) that the administration of these vaccines induces casein allergy?

      Yes.

      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313918596_Medical_muddles_that_maim_our_children_with_allergies_asthma_and_autism?ev=prf_pub

      Per 1,000 children vaccinated, how many will develop a casein allergy due to the vaccine and not other processes?

      If the FDA did its job, we would have an answer.

      Per 1,000 children vaccinated, how many will *die* of a vaccine-induced casein allergy?

      See above response.

      If these vaccines were removed from the market today, how many children would contract tetanus or pertussis?

      False solution. These vaccines have been around for 25 years. What’s the excuse for failing to fix the problem?
      Where are the new safe replacement vaccines, so that no one has to be unprotected?

      How many of the children who contract tetanus or pertussis would die?

      See above reponse.

  36. #67 Old Rockin' Dave
    February 28, 2017

    vinu, you apparently failed to notice this in the summary of the article you cited:
    “Although the children we identified appear by history and testing to be exquisitely allergic to milk, we cannot accurately define a high-risk group based on this case series. Clearly, many highly sensitive children with milk allergy tolerate the vaccines because these reactions are apparently rare.”
    The authors refer to, I believe, 39 instances reported to VAERS. Out of how many millions of doses? Even if the number of unreported events were double or triple or even larger, the percentage of cases is very small. Measured against the risk of harm from the diseases vaccinated against, this is not an entirely unreasonable number.
    Sure, those cases should not happen in an ideal world, but I can think of very few things that are entirely risk-free. Besides, who knows whether something else chosen as an alternative would turn out to be less safe?

    • #68 vinu arumugham
      United States
      February 28, 2017

      “The authors refer to, I believe, 39 instances reported to VAERS. Out of how many millions of doses?”

      I am NOT disputing that allergic REACTIONS are rare following vaccination of allergic individuals. But that’s not what we are talking about here. We are talking about these vaccines CAUSING THE DEVELOPMENT of allergy in the first place, in non-allergic individuals.

  37. #69 Old Rockin' Dave
    February 28, 2017

    ハルート, let’s get our facts straight. The mercury-containing compound dumped into Minimata Bay was methyl mercury. It was used as a catalyst for the production of hundreds of thousands of tons of acetaldehyde over a span of 36 years. It accumulates in living tissue.
    Thimerosal, also known as thiomersal, is an ethyl compound of mercury. It is rapidly excreted from the body. It has not been used in pediatric vaccines for over a decade. It is used in trace amounts in multidose vials of influenza vaccines. To achieve an equivalent dose of elemental mercury from flu vaccines would require impossibly huge amounts of vaccine given to each person.
    Now I know this is not proof, but I have a documented thimerosal allergy, yet I have repeatedly had flu vaccines from multidose vials without the least hint of a reaction.

    • #70 Wzrd1
      February 28, 2017

      Heh, I get more mercury (methy, at that) from a can of tuna than I’d get of ethylmercury with a decade of influenza vaccinations.

      Hmm, I think I’ll have a tuna salad sandwich when I get home from work…

  38. #71 Chris Preston
    Australia
    March 1, 2017

    The protein was identified as casamino acids derived from cow’s milk, contained in medium used to process the vaccines.

    Someone has failed to understand the difference between casamino acids and a protein.

    Quelle surprise.

    • #72 vinu arumugham
      United States
      March 1, 2017

      That’s a quote from here. You may want to take it up with the author …
      http://www.medpagetoday.com/meetingcoverage/aaaai/25520

      However, casamino acids are antigens in vaccines that do cause sensitization and subsequent hypersensitivity reactions including anaphylaxis, per the IOM.

      https://iom.nationalacademies.org/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx

      Document Pg. 65 (pdf pg. 94 ):

      “Adverse events on our list thought to be due to IgE-mediated
      hypersensitivity reactions
      Antigens in the vaccines that the committee is charged with reviewing do not typically elicit an immediate hypersensitivity reaction (e.g., hepatitis B surface antigen, toxoids, gelatin, ovalbumin, casamino acids).
      However, as will be discussed in subsequent chapters, the
      above-mentioned antigens do occasionally induce IgE-mediated sensitization in some individuals and subsequent hypersensitivity reactions, including anaphylaxis.”

  39. #73 Lisa
    United States
    March 1, 2017

    My fear of vaccines comes from 2 things…
    1.  My kids and I got our last flu shot about 2009. The morning following our regular yearly flu shot my son and I woke up with the scariest coughs we had ever heard. We were told in the ER later that morning that we both had H1N1 (Swine flu)…Since deciding against any further flu shots my family’s health has vastly improved.
      My second reason for being skeptical regarding vaccines is LARGELY due to trust.
    2.  Have you ever heard about Ed Haslams book “Dr. Mary’s monkeys”? It exposes one of the largest and most horrifying coverups of all time. It is a completely fact based book with solid traceable evidence about the polio vaccine in the early 1960s and it’s DEVASTATING effects on our health, today, as a result of it. For those of you that don’t know what I’m talking about…. I’ll post the link below.
    https://youtu.be/zmXRXrh8BHQ
      Asking Americans to wager the lives of people they love on the integrity of the government, or on the contents in a vaccine after seeing proof of what consequences may result, would make us wreckless. I do, however, understand the importance of vaccines but that’s only if we can trust the true intentions of the source. So traditional vaccinations should be a thing of the past and a safer more reliable method needs to be implemented in order to get the vaccinations up to date.
      Im certain If we were not given REASON to distrust or worry, we wouldn’t. We are suppose to learn from our past mistakes and entrusting life’s importance to such a corrupt system is not only ignorant, its insane. It’s just that simple..

    • #74 Dorit Reiss
      March 1, 2017

      I’ll let someone else address your second concern, but I do want to point out that your first isn’t a good reason not to be vaccinated. The influenza vaccine takes about a week or more to make you immune, and it has no live virus – it cannot give you influenza. It’s not quite clear if you got the annual influenza shot that did not at that time contain an H1N1 component (which would not have protected you against H1N1 anyway) or a vaccine for H1N1, but that doesn’t matter. If your son and you had H1N1 the next day, you were infected before the shot. You just got the shot too late for it to help. It isn’t an indication of anything about the shot. Sad that you were sick; but that’s not a good reason not to get the best available protection against flu, the vaccine.

    • #75 vinu arumugham
      United States
      March 1, 2017

      “We are suppose to learn from our past mistakes and entrusting life’s importance to such a corrupt system is not only ignorant, its insane. It’s just that simple..”

      Perfect!

  40. #76 Jay
    March 1, 2017

    As Vinu disgracefully dodged your legitimate questions, again blaming the FDA, as if that institution is the world’s only source of answers. Let me have a quick go.

    Quick and dirty, the way Vinu likes it:

    Let’s see milk allergy death rate from Britain: The UK under 16 population is 13 million. Over the past 10 years, four children died (incidence of 0.003 deaths per 100 000 children 0–15 years per year).

    Columbian Vaxxed VS UnVaxxed study: UnVaxxed had a death rate of 7.8 deaths per 100, and the corresponding subjects in the Vaxxed group had none.

    Crude though the above is, maybe even Vinu can see, we should be more worried about disease than milk allergies.

  41. #77 Jay
    March 1, 2017

    Whoops, the above was meant as a response to JustaTech.

  42. #78 Od Rockin' Dave
    March 1, 2017

    vinu, do you even read the articles you cite?
    This is from your response to me: “We are talking about these vaccines CAUSING THE DEVELOPMENT of allergy in the first place, in non-allergic individuals.”
    Now this is from the article:
    ” In this period we observed 8 children in our single center with a history of anaphylactic reactions to booster doses of these vaccines…Six of the [eight] patients had prior acute allergic reactions to cow’s milk, including severe reactions in 5 patients and reactions to trace exposures in 4 patients. One patient was given a diagnosis of milk allergy based on serologic testing performed to evaluate atopic dermatitis, and another was given a diagnosis based on serologic testing to evaluate proctocolitis.”
    This is not very good evidence for the vaccine causing milk allergy.
    Maybe a different medium could be used in production of the vaccine. How would you know before it was used on humans that there was no unanticipated risk?

  43. #79 Od Rockin' Dave
    March 1, 2017

    “Have you ever heard about Ed Haslams book “Dr. Mary’s monkeys”? It exposes one of the largest and most horrifying coverups of all time. It is a completely fact based book with solid traceable evidence about the polio vaccine in the early 1960s and it’s DEVASTATING effects on our health, today, as a result of it.”
    Mary, did you ever stop to consider that when something like that happens, physicians, scientists, vaccine manufacturers, and regulators don’t just shrug their shoulders and continue on without making any changes? No, of course they don’t. There is a concerted effort to find out what went wrong, where in the process the failure occurred, and how to prevent it from happening again. It is not just new drugs and machines that make medical practice today very different from the way it was even ten years ago.

  44. #80 Od Rockin' Dave
    March 1, 2017

    Mary, you say, ” Asking Americans to wager the lives of people they love on the integrity of the government…after seeing proof of what consequences may result, would make us wreckless (sic).”
    You and I depend every day on the integrity of others, government included. We trust building inspectors, weights and measures regulators, health departments, police, soldiers, snowplow drivers, water departments, and so many others. Of course sometimes they fail, for all kinds of reasons, but do you think the private sector does any better? Sure, most people try to do a good, honest job, but there are plenty of people outside of government who ignore disasters, take bribes, hide their mistakes, and so on. Plenty of companies would dump toxic waste on your driveway or in your child’s nursery school if they thought they could get away with it, just for one example.

    • #81 Wzrd1
      March 1, 2017

      How can we really trust the corrupt and evil government that summarily ejected people in Love Canal, New York, destroyed their homes and school and left the ground barren?!
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Canal

      Indeed, we have a POTUS right now who wants to get rid of that evil EPA and bring us back to the natural order of life in the US.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuyahoga_River#Environmental_concerns

      Besides, polio isn’t even that bad a disease. Just ask Arthur C. Clarke about it.
      Oh wait, you can’t. Post-polio syndrome claimed his life.

  45. #82 Jay
    March 1, 2017

    “However, casamino acids are antigens in vaccines that do cause sensitization and subsequent hypersensitivity reactions including anaphylaxis, per the IOM.”

    But Vinu, we all know the IOM’s position of the vaccine schedule causing food allergies*, don’t we? If I remember right your response was to label them frauds or something.

    Refresh my mind as why we should trust the IOM again?

    * There is no evidence they do

    • #83 vinu arumugham
      March 2, 2017

      Each IOM committee can have a different set of people.

      Once in a while, you end up with honest scientists.

      • #84 Jay
        March 2, 2017

        And you are somehow magically gifted in being able to
        separate them out lol.

        Why is the first one honest when it talks of antigens causing anaphylaxis and the second dishonest when it claims no evidence of the vaccine schedule causing food allergies?

        Enlighten everyone present with your guesses.*

        Or, fudge it, be as you said earlier, be specific.

        *Because Vinu, never bothers actually reading any of the studies he cherry picks

        • #85 vinu arumugham
          March 2, 2017

          “Why is the first one honest when it talks of antigens causing anaphylaxis and the second dishonest when it claims no evidence of the vaccine schedule causing food allergies?”

          The dishonest committees make it real easy to demonstrate that they lied.

          Regarding the 2013 IOM report:

          https://www.nap.edu/catalog/13563/the-childhood-immunization-schedule-and-safety-stakeholder-concerns-scientific-evidence

          pg. 28 says:

          “Thus, key elements of the entire
          schedule—the number, frequency, timing, order, and age at administration
          of vaccines—have not been systematically examined in research studies.
          The second major issue that the committee encountered was uncertainty
          over whether the scientific literature has addressed all health outcomes and
          safety concerns. The committee could not tell whether its list was complete
          or whether a more comprehensive system of surveillance might have been
          able to identify other outcomes of potential significance to vaccine safety. In
          addition, the conditions of concern to some stakeholders, such as immunologic,
          neurologic, and developmental problems, are illnesses and conditions
          for which etiologies, in general, are not well understood.”

          The conclusion statement they provided:

          “The committee’s review did not reveal an evidence base suggesting that the U.S. childhood immunization schedule is linked to autoimmune diseases, asthma, hypersensitivity, seizures, child developmental disorders, learning or developmental disorders, or attention deficit or disruptive disorders”.

          does not make sense at all with all the uncertainty, lack of understanding and lack of evidence listed above.

          1. Hypersensitivity (http://missinglink.ucsf.edu/lm/immunology_module/prologue/objectives/obj09.html), is an immune reaction, including anaphylaxis. Anaphylaxis is a well known adverse event, documented in every vaccine package insert. So the conclusion statement claim is false.

          2. Seizures are a known adverse event following vaccinations and they are described in the vaccine injury table.

          https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/vaccineinjurytable.pdf

          So the conclusion statement claim is false.

          3. Kawasaki disease (an autoimmune disease) is a known adverse event of the meningococcal vaccine.

          https://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM201349.pdf

          So the conclusion statement claim is false.

          4. They teach you in medical school that injecting any protein sensitizes you to the protein and causes asthma on subsequent inhalation of the protein.

          Vaccines contain numerous bacterial/viral antigens that we inhale. Result:asthma.

          So again, the conclusion statement claim is false.

          • #86 Jay
            March 3, 2017

            “The dishonest committees make it real easy to demonstrate that they lied”

            They do? lol.

            “pg. 28 says:”

            You dishonestly missed the preceding paragraph that provided the context for the statements you dishonestly misquoted:

            “Although each new vaccine is evaluated in the context of the overall immunization schedule that existed at the time of review of that vaccine, elements of the schedule are not evaluated once it is adjusted to accommodate a new vaccine. Thus…”

            “does not make sense at all with all the uncertainty, lack of understanding and lack of evidence listed above.”

            Well it does now, now that I’ve highlighted your duplicity 🙂

            As for lack of evidence, you do know this report is a book right? There’s pages of reviews of the literature, why are you so sloppy, non scientist researcher man?

            As you said, check twice before you accuse, you didn’t even check once.

          • #87 vinu arumugham
            United States
            March 3, 2017

            This study was about the IMMUNIZATION SCHEDULE, not individual vaccines. Individual vaccines were already studied by the 2012 IOM committee. This 2013 committee lied as I easily demonstrated.

          • #88 Jay
            jamesoneillone@googlemail.com
            March 3, 2017

            “This study was about the IMMUNIZATION SCHEDULE, ”

            Exactly! That’s why it isn’t a lie, the actual schedule, the timing, the amount of vaccines, etc had no effect on the incidence of allergy or any of the other listed ailments.

          • #89 vinu arumugham
            United States
            March 3, 2017

            Are you kidding? They admitted they had no useful information regarding schedule safety. So they lied in the conclusion statement.

          • #90 Jay
            March 4, 2017

            “People drink milk by the glass. They don’t drink mosquito saliva by the glass”

            Glasses of milk don’t sneakily bite people in the middle of the night.

            And… are you volunteering to milk the mosquitos yourself? Good, a far more productive use of your time than your clueless twisting of vaccine safety studies 😉

          • #91 Jay
            March 3, 2017

            Vinu, go away and read the entire report, there’s even a longitudinal allergy study there you might find upsetting. 😉

          • #92 vinu arumugham
            United States
            March 4, 2017

            Picked the first allergy study the 2013 committee reviewed:

            Thomson et al.
            http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1399-3038.2010.01018.x/abstract

            “Combined diphtheria and tetanus (CDT) immunisation in the first year had an increased risk of asthma at 6 yr (RR 1.76, 95%CI 1.11 2.78; adjusted RR 1.88 95%CI 1.28 2.77). ”

            The committee lied. The above study did not even consider food allergies.

          • #93 Jay
            March 4, 2017

            No they didn’t, stop just picking the top paper and calling it done, you very silly man.

            You are supposed to be a researcher, do some damn research!

          • #94 vinu arumugham
            March 5, 2017

            I only have to show they lied. You can figure out if they lied REPEATEDLY, by studying the rest of the papers.

          • #95 Jay
            March 6, 2017

            “I only have to show they lied”

            In your dreams you lunatic. And, ya haven’t and I haven’t got time to do a proper job so…

            “You can figure out if they lied REPEATEDLY, by studying the rest of the papers.”

            Have had quite the look actually, they haven’t lied.

            Stop deliberately sticking your head in the sand screaming “there’s no evidence!!”

            Evidence right there, the one you are looking for, took me less than hour.

            Thought you were a researcher, looking more like a careless alarmist idiot to me

  46. #96 herr doktor bimler
    March 1, 2017

    That’s a quote from here. You may want to take it up with the author …
    http://www.medpagetoday.com/meetingcoverage/aaaai/25520

    Repeating a statement as evidence to support one’s dingbattery, then backing away from the statement and disclaiming all responsibility when it’s obviously wrong? That’s rather cowardly.

    Whistler: Your Majesty is like a stream of bat’s piss.
    Prince: What?
    Whistler: It was one of Wilde’s.
    Oscar: It sodding was not! It was Shaw!

    • #97 Wzrd1
      March 1, 2017

      I fear that the world may never recover from Monty Python.
      Thankfully. 😉

  47. #98 JustaTech
    March 1, 2017

    Jay @75: Thanks!

  48. #99 brian
    March 1, 2017

    Asking Americans to wager the lives of people they love on the integrity of the government, or on the contents in a vaccine after seeing proof of what consequences may result, would make us wreckless (sic).

    So, you instead trust Infowars? That’s beyond pathetic. Please, even if you’ve forgotten high school biology, crack a textbook.

  49. #100 vinu arumugham
    United States
    March 2, 2017

    https://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm544330.htm
    FDA approves Odactra for house dust mite allergies

    Problem:
    ” Individuals with house dust mite allergies may experience a cough, runny nose, nasal itching, nasal congestion, sneezing, and itchy and watery eyes.”

    Solution:
    “The most commonly reported adverse reactions were nausea, itching in the ears and mouth, and swelling of the lips and tongue. The prescribing information includes a boxed warning that severe allergic reactions, some of which can be life-threatening, can occur. As with other FDA-approved allergen extracts administered sublingually, patients receiving Odactra should be prescribed auto-injectable epinephrine.”

    Talk about a cure being worse than the disease.
    FDA’s corruptocratic oath: First do maximum harm, to keep Pharm happy …

  50. #101 vinu arumugham
    United States
    March 2, 2017

    Effect of the first vaccine sledgehammer attack on the immune system:

    Atopic dermatitis caused by vaccine-induced allergy to Saccharomyces cerevisiae?
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305905780_Atopic_dermatitis_caused_by_vaccine-induced_allergy_to_Saccharomyces_cerevisiae

    to “fix” the damage, the second sledgehammer attack:

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1606490?query=TOC
    Anti–Interleukin-31 Receptor A Antibody for Atopic Dermatitis

    They want to attack IL-31?! What is the natural role of IL-31?
    What happens when you attack it? Who knows, who cares?

    They won’t understand the root cause. They won’t fix the root cause. Remove yeast from the stupid vaccines. Instead, they will create new classes of chronic diseases by taking out a cytokine without a clue about what they are doing.
    They want to inject these antibodies into humans and see what happens.
    This is what we call tinkering, not engineering.

    • #102 Jay
      March 2, 2017

      I’m not clicking that link, bumping up your hits seems like aiding and abetting murder.

      As far as I can tell from my minuscule glimpse of the real paper, you are upset because vaccines are going to save the day again.

  51. #103 Lisa
    Portland, oregon
    March 2, 2017

    Thanks to those who read my post and to those who also commented back about the content in it. I just wanted to clear up a couple things. First of all…Dorit Reiss…I was just giVing others a recount of a situation my kids and I had dealt with regarding the flu shot…it was a negative experience and have been in much better health without it. I do not know how it is made or what it contains…that was kind of my point. It could contain anything, as the book dr. Mary’s monkey proves. I agree with you about getting sick the day after a flu shot would not be grounds to be anti-vaccine. I was just giving ONE example of many factors that got me questioning the safety of the vaccines Secondly, BRIAN, I believe I spoke about ed Haslams book “Dr. Mary’s Monkey” and said nothing about info wars. I just thought it would be quicker to have people see the interview of Ed Haslam (which was done by infowars) rather than read the book, as that may take some time.
    Im not sure if you even have an interest in this topic (brian) or if youre just here for some self therapy. Insulting people who speak up is bullying and just makes you seem like perhaps you have some mental health issues you should straighten out before embarressing yourself. It seems like you’re screaming out for help or attention. I’m not sure if it’s just insecurity or what but you should probably figure that out with a qualified health care professional before subjecting others to your vulgar, rude behavior. Good luck with that Brian.

  52. #104 Lisa
    Portland, oregon
    March 2, 2017

    Od Rockin’ Dave
    Thank you for your responses as well. What I really appreciate, dave, is that though you may or may not agree with me, you try to help others understand your point of view rather than insulting theirs. So thanks for your perfect online etiquette and behavior. HOPEFULLY OTHERS ON HERE WILL LEARN SOMETHING FROM YOU.

  53. #105 Antaeus Feldspar
    March 2, 2017

    People typically give their strongest evidence first.

    If you’re explaining the factors that led to a decision, and the very first factor you find worth mentioning is a provably irrelevant factor (“I ran into too many red lights on my way to the doctor’s office; it got me questioning the safety of vaccines”) then it hints very strongly that you actually have no idea how to distinguish good evidence from bad evidence.

    Infowars is a site that exists only because there are people out there who have no idea how to distinguish good evidence from bad evidence. It’s a site that only exists because there are people who can’t figure out the difference between “X has been speculated” and “X is supported by the evidence.” Even if you merely invoke the site as the most convenient way to see Ed Haslam explaining his bizarre speculations about CIA plots and linear accelerators being used in virology (I don’t think that plot point could even pass muster on “The Flash”!) and cancer viruses/vaccines just accidentally becoming extremely potent immunodeficiency retroviruses – the very fact that nobody more reliable than Infowars takes Haslam’s bizarre speculations seriously is an indicator.

  54. #106 Woo Fighter
    March 2, 2017

    AF,

    Haslam is also a regular on “Coast to Coast” if you need more proof of his lack of credibility.

    So let’s recap: Lisa shows up here out of the blue, spouting all kinds of discredited anti-vax nonsense, she shills for a conspiracy theory nutcase (he has no science background; he worked in advertising) who wrote a book and she promotes Infowars. She then gets all butthurt when she’s told her sources are not reliable and she accuses brian of mental illness for his perfectly polite and accurate answer, par for the course around here.

    Project much, Lisa?

  55. #107 Woo Fighter
    March 2, 2017

    Not to mention the fact that only cranks go on Infowars or “Coast to Coast” in the first place. As soon as someone has appeared on either of those two outlets, he/she is immediately discredited.

    No real scientist or academic would ever have anything to do with Alex Jones or George Noory.

  56. #108 Old Rockin' Dave
    March 2, 2017

    “Once in a while, you end up with honest scientists.”
    You mean that once in a while we end up with honest and sensible antivaxxers, at least one or two. Sadly, you are not one of them.
    You’ll get nowhere with me by impugning the integrity of the vast majority of medical scientists. I have worked with some of the best, and intellectual honesty was the biggest thing they all had in common. When you can come back here with some actual evidence that doesn’t fold up like wet toilet paper when examined instead of claims based on your own misreading of the papers you cite, please do so.
    Otherwise do us all a favor and keep it to yourself.

  57. #109 JustaTech
    March 2, 2017

    vinu @91: I don’t understand, I though you would be thrilled by this. It’s using very small doses of an allergenic material to modulate the immune system to eliminate the inappropriate immune response to the allergen. Oral allergy shots, what could be better?

    And *of course* allergic reaction is a side effect of the treatment, since you’d only take it if you were allergic to dust mites! That’s why the first dose is given in a doctor’s office under supervision.

    I’m really not seeing what your complain is.

    • #110 vinu arumugham
      March 2, 2017

      How is a life-threatening side effect ever justified for treating a non-life-threatening disease?

  58. #111 JustaTech
    March 2, 2017

    Vinu @92: Uh, there’s plenty of info on IL-31. Heck, it even has a W*pedia article. So, clearly people know and care.

    From what you’ve said here, you want all injected medications to be made without: chicken eggs, any bovine product (hey, it was never *milk*, it was other cow proteins) and yeasts.
    What does that leave us with to grow the cells where you grow vaccines? Soy?

    You have *still* never shown any evidence that vaccines *are* creating food allergies. You’ve showed the basic science but no actual evidence that vaccines are causing allergies. Show the numbers! How many children have egg allergies that would not have had them without vaccines? Give the number per 10,000 vaccinated.

  59. #115 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    March 2, 2017

    JustaTech, have you read the non Frank Herbert Dune books? One group used special cloned people to grow drugs and vaccines (and organs). This probably fits into what this Vinu would like to do.

  60. #116 JustaTech
    March 2, 2017

    Rich, didn’t they also grow whole clones too? Wasn’t one of the big reveals in the later books that the “vats” were actually women?
    I’m not sure that I think that vinu would have read anything like Dune.

  61. #117 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    March 2, 2017

    JustaTech, I think you are right. I tend to reread most books several times but the Dune series (later books especially0 are so dark I don’t reread.

    The only problem Vinu might have if they are women you could still get the milk proteins. (sarcasm)

  62. #118 herr doktor bimler
    March 2, 2017

    One group used special cloned people to grow drugs and vaccines (and organs).
    These of course are not canon — as you note, they are not from the pen of Frank Herbert, being vulgar cash-in travesties by Brian.

    And then there was this:
    http://boingboing.net/2016/04/04/sex-nun-of-dune.html

  63. #119 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    March 2, 2017

    Travis/Lou I think you are close to having the zeroth law invoke against you. You must enjoy being hit repeating with the ban hammer.

  64. #120 Julian Frost
    Gauteng North
    March 3, 2017

    @Rich Bly

    JustaTech, have you read the non Frank Herbert Dune books? One group used special cloned people to grow drugs and vaccines (and organs).

    Have you read “Never let me go”, by Kazuo Ishiguro? I’ve seen the film based on the book. Enjoyed it.

  65. #121 herr doktor bimler
    March 3, 2017

    Mosquito saliva would be safe medium if it works …
    Evolved over millions of years to be only mildly allergenic to humans.

    I kind of doubt that it makes any evolutionary difference to mosquitos — or other blood-sucking insects, or vampire bats for that matter — whether their proteins provoke allergies in humans or not. The New Zealand sandfly species Austrosimulium australense and A. ungulatum have had only a few hundred years experience of feeding from mammals, and guess what! They don’t cause anaphylaxis!

    Rather than cobble together these elaborate Rube-Goldberg hypotheses to explain away each case when Richet was wrong and injected proteins don’t lead to anaphylaxis, how about we consider the possiblility that Richet was wrong?

    • #122 Jay
      March 3, 2017

      ” how about we consider the possiblility that Richet was wrong?”

      Maybe like the way Richet was wrong about the existence of Ectoplasm?

      Yes Vinu, why don’t we grow vaccines off Ectoplasm?

  66. #123 herr doktor bimler
    March 3, 2017

    Consider the NZ Tiger leech Richardsonianus mauianus — not evolved to feeding off mammals, and nor have mammals evolved to resist its allergenic bites. Yet its peptide injections don’t cause anaphylaxis. It’s almost as if Richet’s ideas were just wild generalisations.

    There are also a few beach-dwelling species of NZ leech but I can’t remember their names right now.

  67. #124 herr doktor bimler
    March 3, 2017

    Maybe like the way Richet was wrong about the existence of Ectoplasm?
    Yes Vinu, why don’t we grow vaccines off Ectoplasm?

    Goodness. I did not know about Richet’s self-deluding ectoplasm-related gullibility. Nor did I know that his white-supremacist racism was extreme even by the standards of his time. Now I am imagining him covered all over with Aryan Brotherhood tattoos.

  68. #125 herr doktor bimler
    March 3, 2017

    Now I have a Cunning Plan to culture vaccines on a medium made from tattoo inks. The only downside is that some tattoo pigments are aluminium compounds.

  69. #126 Jay
    March 3, 2017

    “Goodness. I did not know about Richet’s self-deluding ectoplasm-related gullibility.”

    Quite chuffed I’ve managed to inform herr bimler of something of interest. It usually the other way round.

  70. #127 Old Rockin' Dave
    March 3, 2017

    vinu: “Mosquito saliva would be safe medium if it works”
    This one deserves to be on the all-time list of really bad ideas.
    First off, mosquito saliva is an anticoagulant. Do you think it’s a good idea to go injecting people with an anticoagulant in quantities larger than a mosquito does?
    Second, I have seen some drastic local reactions from mosquito bites, like wheals the size of a walnut, many hours of continued bleeding, infections from having a non-healing wound, and more. I don’t know of it for a fact, but I would be surprised if there never have been anaphylactic reactions.
    Third, mutations in the immune system of individuals occur, and are not strictly based on heredity. Allergies can arise in a population de novo. Beyond that, populations that have not been exposed to a particular allergen for centuries, even millennia, can show up when they are finally challenged.
    Here’s a thought – you go first.

    • #128 vinu arumugham
      March 3, 2017

      “Do you think it’s a good idea to go injecting people with an anticoagulant in quantities larger than a mosquito does?”

      No, don’t exceed the quantity that nature has tested for you.
      Mosquito saliva is only to be used as a growth media. So just like trace quantities of milk in vaccines, there will only be trace quantities of mosquito saliva in the vaccine.

    • #129 vinu arumugham
      March 3, 2017

      “Allergies can arise in a population de novo. Beyond that, populations that have not been exposed to a particular allergen for centuries, even millennia, can show up when they are finally challenged.”

      Have you heard of mass deaths due to anaphylaxis following mosquito bites? Does not happen.

      People drink milk by the glass. They don’t drink mosquito saliva by the glass.

  71. #130 herr doktor bimler
    March 3, 2017

    It is taught to every doctor in medical school

    Injecting food proteins causing the development of allergy and asthma is taught to every doctor in medical school.

    Every doctor is taught in medical school that injecting allergens causes allergies and asthma.

    4. They teach you in medical school that injecting any protein sensitizes you to the protein and causes asthma on subsequent inhalation of the protein.

    Vinu seems pretty confident about the med school curriculum, for someone whose experience of it turned out to be a self-aggrandising fiction.

  72. […] nonpartisan subjects is over vaccines, and, worse, he’s contributing to something I fear, the politicization of vaccine policy. If Trump supporters really start viewing antivaccine beliefs and distrust of vaccines as part of […]

  73. #132 JustaTech
    March 3, 2017

    ORD @123: How on earth did vinu come up with the idea that mosquito saliva doesn’t induce an allergic reaction? That’s what the swelling, redness, heat and itchiness are!
    And then you have people like my SO who get huge purple sores (sliver dollar to mouth of a mug sized) that last for weeks from every mosquito bite.

    I’m almost forced to conclude that vinu does not actually live on planet earth with the rest of us.

    • #133 vinu arumugham
      United States
      March 3, 2017

      When was the last time you read about people being prescribed Epipen auto-injectors to prevent anaphylaxis caused by mosquito bites?

  74. #134 JustaTech
    March 3, 2017

    HDB @114: I could have sworn the women-as-clone-incubators thing was in the last Dune book written by Frank, mostly because I’ve never read the ones by Brian.

    • #135 Jay
      March 3, 2017

      JT, I’ve read the Brian books as well, they are not the real thing. But, taken on their own, well I have enjoyed reading them.

  75. #136 herr doktor bimler
    March 4, 2017

    People drink milk by the glass. They don’t drink mosquito saliva by the glass

    They do! They do! They just call it “Pabst Blue Label”.

  76. #137 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    March 4, 2017

    @hdb:

    People drink milk by the glass. They don’t drink mosquito saliva by the glass

    They do! They do! They just call it “Pabst Blue Label”.

    Mosquito saliva, not mosquito urine. :p

  77. #138 Old Rockin' Dave
    March 4, 2017

    vinu: “When was the last time you read about people being prescribed Epipen auto-injectors to prevent anaphylaxis caused by mosquito bites?”
    https://www.aaaai.org/conditions-and-treatments/library/allergy-library/taking-a-bite-out-of-mosquitoes:
    “However, some people have more serious reactions like blistering lesions or larger hives accompanied by fever and joint swelling. At its worst, a mosquito bite can cause anaphylaxis ”
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7719881.:
    “Immunotherapy with whole body mosquito extracts is a viable treatment option that can play a role in patients with mosquito bite-induced anaphylaxis”.
    When was the last time you knew what you were talking about?

    • #139 vinu arumugham
      United States
      March 7, 2017

      That’s my point. It is so rare.

      • #140 Wzrd1
        March 8, 2017

        My point is, your bovine defecation is *far* more rare.
        Go away, son, you bother me.

  78. #141 Old Rockin' Dave
    March 4, 2017

    “They just call it “Pabst Blue Label”.”
    Unlike Budweiser, which is a fine European-style pilsener beer that is warm-filtered through the kidneys of American beer drinkers.

  79. #142 Jay
    March 4, 2017

    Just in case anybody was perturbed about Vinu’s Kawasaki mention, look what I stumbled across:

    Childhood vaccines and Kawasaki disease, Vaccine Safety Datalink, 1996-2006.

    “A total of 1,721,186 children aged 0-6 years from seven managed care organizations were followed for a combined 4,417,766 person-years”

    “Childhood vaccinations’ studied did not increase the risk of Kawasaki disease; conversely, vaccination was associated with a transient decrease in Kawasaki disease incidence. Verifying and understanding this potential protective effect could yield clues to the underlying etiology of Kawasaki disease.”

    • #143 vinu arumugham
      United States
      March 5, 2017

      1. Meningococcal vaccine is NOT routinely administered in 0-6 years kids.

      2. Natural version of what the meningococcal vaccine does:
      Meningococcal group A sepsis associated with rare manifestations and complicated by Kawasaki-like disease.
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19287280

      • #144 Wzrd1
        March 5, 2017

        A side effect of not having the vaccine available had first, caused severe brain damage, then later, the death of my adolescent aunt Rita.

  80. #147 Old Rockin' Dave
    March 4, 2017

    I saw Kawasaki once in an adult with AIDS. At the time the boss and I thought there was an immune-related process, but it’s so rare in adults that there were not enough cases to do any meaningful studies.

  81. #148 Gilbert
    March 4, 2017

  82. #150 herr doktor bimler
    March 5, 2017

    Let me try that again: Kawasaki`s Disease, Acrodynia, and Mercury

    I am not convinced. Linked paper relies too heavily on the magisterial works of Haley and Blaxill. Repeats too many “Blaxill-facts” without questioning them. 2/10. Would not recommend.

    Address correspondence to this author at the Department of Environmental and Complementary Medicine, Salusmed Medical Center,

    Sounds legit!

  83. #151 I am so wise
    March 5, 2017

    Well, its the best theory that I’ve seen.

    (Science Mom thinks that Kawasaki’s Disease comes from riding motorcycles!)

    • #152 Wzrd1
      March 6, 2017

      Yeah, autoimmune disease is always linked to mercury – on those from the planet Mercury.
      Meanwhile, there is a positive correlation for wind direction and Kawasaki disease, suggesting either a pathogen or superantigen originating in Asia. There are also known genetic components, such as a single nucleotide polymorphism in the ITPKC gene and the HLA-B51 serotype being associated with endemic instances of the disease.

  84. #153 Chris
    March 6, 2017

    Wzrd1, it is yet another sock puppet from Travis Schwochert from Endeavor, Wisconsin.

    Go away Travis.

    • #154 Wzrd1
      March 6, 2017

      Yeah, it set off my bullshmidt detector, but still, easily enough refuted.

  85. #155 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    March 6, 2017

    Yeah, it’s like he’s not even trying.

  86. #156 herr doktor bimler
    March 6, 2017

    Kawasaki’s disease has an immediate onset and in not contagious. It has every indication of being caused by mercury poisoning.

    Not aluminium? I am disappoint. But anyway, have fun arguing with Vinu!

    Mercury exposure and early effects: an overview.

    Readers may notice that Kazantzis does not deem ‘vaccines’ — or any other form of ethyl mercury — to be worth mentioning in his list of environmental exposures to mercury. His discussion of occupational exposures to mercury is out-of-date, but he was writing in 2002 so I do not judge.

  87. #157 herr doktor bimler
    March 6, 2017

    I figure it does no harm to have $SOCKPUPPET monitoring AoA and kindred sites to see whatever crap studies they have dug out of the rubbish-bin of science, and are currently passing around like communal lollipops, in order to link to them here. It’s not as if he takes them seriously himself.

    One of those links — now gone, like tears in rain — was to “Urine mercury levels in Kawasaki Disease” (Orlowski & Mercer) from 1980. And it wasn’t actually belligerently stupid… just an N=7 report that was soon disproven by later surveys with much larger numbers. Bad studies that don’t replicate are not just a recent invention.

    Kawasaki himself reckoned that no competent diagnostician could confuse his eponymous disease with mercury poisoning, and he probably saw enough cases of the latter.

  88. #158 Lawrence
    March 8, 2017

    Go away Travis…dressing in drag doesn’t make you look any better.

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