Pharyngula

I thought Jebons were supposed to be a joke … so what is this lunatic ranting about?

Warning: this is from GodTube, so unless you’ve got a fair amount of tolerance for crazy, deluded talk, you might not want to click on it.

Just in case you didn’t want to puke up your dinner by actually watching this kook, it’s an evangelical apologist teaching his version of molecular biology to his audience — he is immensely and undeservedly impressed by the fact that the cell adhesion molecule laminin is cruciform in diagrams. Forget the fact that it is a floppy glycoprotein, and the arms can fold around into many configurations; never mind that the Christian symbol is trivial, a mere two slashes, one across the other, and apparently anything with four arms will fit it (nobody tell them about tRNA!); it probably doesn’t even matter that there are many adhesion molecules, such as NCAMs, cadherins, and integrins that are not cross-shaped. Laminin is a secreted adhesion molecule that gets enmeshed in the extracellular matrix; it has 3 similar, short arms that adhere to other laminin molecules, which promotes their assembly into a feltwork.

From this feeble, pathetic, coincidental shape, the preacher spins out an incredible interpretation — Jesus holds us together! The audience of dumb yokels oohs and aahs over this nonsense. This is depressing, since this seems to be the level of comprehension we can expect from the public.

Also depressing: google for laminin, and aside from the Wikipedia entry, the top references right now are all to Christian kooks babbling about this trivial shape story. What a sad fate for a developmentally and evolutionarily significant molecule that has roots right down at the base of the metazoan family tree. I cringe to see these loons abusing molecular biology to cheerlead for superstition.


I was asked if there were any swastika shaped molecules in the cell. Sure.

i-137ad0e7456b06748557b8c03148a26b-kchannel.jpg

That’s a potassium channel. Your brains are full of them.

Comments

  1. #1 Andy James
    April 28, 2008

    Yet another Christian lying for money at the expense of young people.

    Lies because he claims to know what hes talking about when its clear to any objective mind he does not.

    Creepy.

  2. #2 Chris Hall
    April 28, 2008

    You can’t by any chance find a protein that looks like a swastika can you? Think how happy the nasty little man would be then

  3. #3 Michael Whitehead
    April 28, 2008

    Have you ever noticed how closely elephants resemble the Hindu god Ganesh? Surely that’s evidence of the underlying truth of Hinduism!

  4. #4 Chris Hall
    April 28, 2008

    Ooops, pressed send too soon – I mean because it would prove that evolution was evil (never mind that a cross shape protein proves that god created us)

  5. #5 Dutch Delight
    April 28, 2008

    I find myself recalibrating the scale on which i measure how depressive things are a lot:
    http://gorillasguides.com/2008/04/28/barbaric-honour-killings-become-the-weapon-to-subjugate-women-in-iraq/

  6. #6 UprightAlice
    April 28, 2008

    Jesus doesn’t hold us together. Everybody knows it’s midichlorians.

  7. #7 Kirk
    April 28, 2008

    Hey, I got through twelve whole seconds before I teared up and started crying at the beautifulness of his speech…

    Actually I fucking threw up, what an idiot!

    And yes, I know “beautifulness” isn’t a word so no grammar corrections!

  8. #8 J
    April 28, 2008

    #2

    Well, there’s a triskelion.

  9. #9 Kirk
    April 28, 2008

    Midichlorians!!!! I don’t want to admit I know what they are, but thats funny right there!

  10. #10 Andy James
    April 28, 2008

    Using our pareidolia skills, how about one that looks like a Buddhist mandala, or a smiley face or a goats head, or the Cydonia Mensae Mars face.

    Its protein, its like silly string. It looks like whatever you you want to believe it is, but that does not make it that thing.

    A camel in clouds does not make that cloud a camel.

    This preacher guy is a direct demonstration of the feeble thinking inherent in Christian thought. Their own de-education of their progeny will be their own downfall.

  11. #11 Cliff Hendroval
    April 28, 2008

    Of course, one of the conclusions that follows from this gentleman’s logic is that free will is out the window.

    At the beginning of life, either 4.5 billion years ago, or as this fellow would likely claim, 6000 years ago, YHWH put this cruciform structure into a biologically important molecule, knowing that either 4000 or 4.5 billion less 2000 years later His Only Begotten Son and Saviour Of Mankind would die on this particular Roman torture implement. Therefore YHWH (or, as Larry Gonick would have it, Yahoowahoo) knew everything that was coming down the pike. That time you had an impure thought about the person sitting next to you in your eigth grade English class? Yahoowahoo knew about it at the beginning of time, and was planning to send you to the Eternal Lake of Fire for it.

  12. #12 Bardiac
    April 28, 2008

    So does he believe it looked like a star of David before the whole Jesus thing happened?

  13. #13 Andrew
    April 28, 2008

    Dang, it’s a cross. Well I’m convinced.

  14. #14 Dennis N
    April 28, 2008

    Dang, I wonder if you can get an accredited degree in molecular biology at Patriot Bible University?

  15. #15 Norbert Pozar
    April 28, 2008

    I’m actually pretty convinced.

    Oh, wait, don’t most proteins look like spaghetti? Flying Spaghetti Monster is holding our bodies together!

  16. #16 Gene
    April 28, 2008

    J:

    That clathrin molecule looks more like a 20-sided dice to me. I’d say that confirms, once and or all, that Gary Gygax is god.

  17. #17 Zeno
    April 28, 2008

    Frankly, the video explaining how peanut butter refutes evolution is much more powerful and compelling.

    [Link]

    Hmmmm. Peanut butter.

  18. #18 A lurker
    April 28, 2008

    How about a pentagram?

    In any event it is really lucky that the Roman authorities did not have electric chairs. ;-)

    Astronomers might want to get into the fun as well.

  19. #19 The Science Pundit
    April 28, 2008

    Haha! I remember the Jebons! In fact, I still sometimes use that image as my avatar in some chat rooms. ;-)

  20. #20 danley
    April 28, 2008

    Cottage cheese always lumps up in threes. Coincidence?

  21. #21 Dennis N
    April 28, 2008

    Ya know, even if they found proof on a molecular level, that doesn’t mean everyone who’s believed without evidence for the past 1700 years hasn’t been ridiculous and delusional.

  22. #22 Dennis N
    April 28, 2008

    Just now on House: “What, so evolution isn’t real now? What is this, 21st century America?”

  23. #23 wisnij
    April 28, 2008

    I hope he doesn’t accidentally turn the diagram upside-down. Whoops, now we’re all held together by Satan!

  24. #24 Nasikabatrachus
    April 28, 2008

    That electron-microscope image didn’t look like a cross at all. It looked like a really lopsided vase…wait, now it looks like a dog and a cat kissing! Awww.

  25. #25 MJMD
    April 28, 2008

    “..unless you’ve got a fair amount of tolerance for crazy, deluded talk, you might not want to click on it.”

    I’m sorry. I was wrong. I honestly thought I could take it.
    I’m so seriously revolted right now.

    I can’t shake the dread in the pit of my stomach that this thinking may continue to spread.
    That’s downright depressing.

  26. #26 Dennis N
    April 28, 2008

    Ah, the episode just mentioned intelligent design too, in mockery.

  27. #27 raven
    April 28, 2008

    Didn’t watch the video. You know, these people are just morons. Literally.

    The median IQ in the USA is 100, meaning 50% of the population has an IQ of less than that. Many of the 70′s and 80′s are fundie Xians.

    There is a steady exodus of people from the cults. Not everyone wants to lie a lot, be ignorant, and hate everyone else. And it is nonrandom, the best, brightest, and most educated wake up one day, and say, “Gee, this is stupid.”

    Demons don’t cause mental illness, faith healing kills little kids often, the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and Ben Stein is an evil dwarf.

  28. #28 Geo
    April 28, 2008

    So PZ. You have “uplifting” piano music wafting in the background during your lectures? :-)

    Sheez… that was depressing to watch.

  29. #29 Spaulding
    April 28, 2008

    Hey, I thought the original symbol of Christianity was a fish?

    You sure as hell don’t see any of those in nature.

  30. #30 Clare
    April 28, 2008

    i have zero tolerance for “crazy, deluded talk.” barf!

  31. #31 J
    April 28, 2008

    We need to bring in the scanning electron microscope.

  32. #32 QrazyQat
    April 28, 2008

    apparently anything with four arms will fit it

    Reminds me of a book from way back — girls coming of age who learn the concept of phallic symbols and see them everywhere that summer, since as one points out in hindsight, anything that’s taller than it is wide is one.

  33. #33 Steve
    April 28, 2008

    I’m constantly amazed that people who would immediately concede they don’t know enough about, say, electrical engineering, or programming, or networking – to make rational observations on their application and truths are completely willing – even motivated – to express their equally uninformed views on evolution, biology, and the like.

  34. #34 QrazyQat
    April 28, 2008

    We need to bring in the scanning electron microscope.

    It’s too late for the microscope, we need to fetch the Comfy Chair!

  35. #35 Zachary B.
    April 28, 2008

    What does it mean to be “fearfully made?”

  36. #36 Spaulding
    April 28, 2008

    Imagine how the pythagorean theorem would blow this guy’s mind…

    Seriously, to any religious folks who may be reading this: Yes, nature is awe inspiring, from the smallest molecule to every struggling organism to the spiralling expanses of the cosmos. But it’s not the petty, inevitable coincidences that are amazing; rather, it’s the dynamic complexity that grows from simple conditions, the sometimes imperceptible cycles and flows that surround us, the humbling understanding that the universe encompasses scales beyond our observation and easy comprehension.

    And it’s exciting to explore those areas as pioneers extending the range of human understanding. I’m sure the emotions involved would be familiar to a religious person. But the difference is that a true understanding of the world requires evidence, not just emotion.

    So please, look up laminin. Read science books and articles. You’ll find beauty, not an enemy.

  37. #37 Fernando Magyar
    April 28, 2008

    A god tube full of laminin, kinda sounds like a new shaving cream or somethin that Kent Hovind might use as a penetrating ointment.

  38. #38 OctoberMermaid
    April 28, 2008

    Why would God pick a cross? Thought he wasn’t big on idolatry and it’s not like he has any good memories of “that time I got myself crucified.”

    If he were really trying to impress us, it wouldn’t look like a cross. It would look like Jesus grinning and winking, that molecular trickster.

  39. #39 Latina Amor
    April 28, 2008

    Quem deus vult perdere, dementat prius. Hostis humani generis…quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

  40. #40 Hans
    April 28, 2008

    That’s not a swastika. That’s a command symbol from Mac OS! STEVE JOBS IS JEEBUS!!!11!OMGWTFBBQ!!11!one!!11!!eleven.

    Or maybe jeebus is a Swedish tourism official.

  41. #41 Ollie
    April 28, 2008

    Astronomers might want to get into the fun as well.

    You mean, like this?

    http://ronsworld.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/in-him-all-things-hold-together/

    If the blog itself doesn’t leave you a quivering mass Jeebus-worshipping Jell-o, just read the comments. Those are sure to convince you…

    Ollie

  42. #42 Joshua Arnold
    April 28, 2008

    Hey, I thought the original symbol of Christianity was a fish?

    You sure as hell don’t see any of those in nature.

    Probably the funniest thing I’ve read all night.

    That video is both depressing and scary. It’s so amazingly idiotic, shows the faith hasn’t progressed much since looking for divinations in spilled animal organs. But his rhetoric is powerful. He’s just heaping onto these people talk about how special they are, how much God loves them, etc. Doesn’t matter what lies he throws in there. He’s got ‘em.

    So yes, Scientists must now lecture to piano accompaniment.

  43. #43 Ichthyic
    April 28, 2008

    What does it mean to be “fearfully made?”

    maybe he meant: frightfully

    …and was really referring to himself and his immediate audience.

    frightfully made, indeed.

    like a bunch of zombies…

  44. #44 J-Dog
    April 28, 2008

    I think this is a sign from Heaven that we are to immediately crucify all Christians.

    Or, maybe it’s a sign telling us that if we play TicTacToe, we should alwys use an X. I’m pretty sure it’s one or the other. It must be true, cuz God put it into a cell. And then Mary winked at me from my Grilled Cheese sandwich.

  45. #45 William Gulvin
    April 28, 2008

    In hoc signo STUPID!

  46. #46 Ichthyic
    April 28, 2008

    So yes, Scientists must now lecture to piano accompaniment.

    I said this for years when I was teaching, but for some reason, the department wouldn’t spring for a professional player.

    no way would I be so cheap as to use recorded accompaniment.

    :p

  47. #47 Dan
    April 28, 2008

    Bat… shit… crazy!

    In a way, I almost feel sorry for this dim-witted huckster. In watching that video, I see a guy who is honestly challenged when it comes to taking money from brainless rubes.

    Obviously, he’s making this whole thing considerably harder than it has to be.

    Seriously, when was the last time you saw one of these twisted, Bible-thumping gomers actually overthink something?

  48. #48 Janine ID
    April 28, 2008

    Just the same old BS. How is it any different than people who claimed that the “cross” found in the rubble of the Twin Towers was a sign of big sky daddy’s love for the US.

  49. #49 Steven
    April 28, 2008

    “nobody tell them about tRNA!”

    LuLz x1000

  50. #50 Larry
    April 28, 2008

    What year is this? I thought it was 2008 but looking at this makes me believe its somewhere in the middle of the Dark Ages where every thing was interpreted as either the sign of god or the devil, sometimes both on the very same day.

    These people are lunatics, pure and simple.

  51. #51 Amplexus
    April 28, 2008

    What was that one gassy galaxy that the American Athiests chairwoman showed that looks just like a giant hand giving the universe “the bird”

  52. #52 mikeg
    April 28, 2008

    rrrraaaaaaph!

  53. #53 mikeg
    April 28, 2008

    i mean ralph… choked on phlegm

  54. #54 Etha Williams
    April 28, 2008

    From the video:

    [God says], “I’m also big enough to be intimately acquainted with all the circumstances of everyone of your life”

    o.O; So when they say they want to know God, do they mean “know” in…you know…the *biblical* sense? ;)

  55. #55 Etha Williams
    April 28, 2008

    re: my #54…gah…mis-transcribed; should be:

    [God says], “I’m also big enough to be intimately acquainted with all the circumstances of every one of your lives”

  56. #56 Latina Amor
    April 28, 2008

    Midichlorians! -lol-

    May the force be with you, too.

  57. #57 Etha Williams
    April 28, 2008

    This pathetic misappropriation of science really is revolting.

    When I was a kid, my mom would take me and my brother out to the park and we’d look at the clouds and try to see what shapes they made. If you’d told me then that people would make a career out of this sort of thing, I’d have been shocked.

    Now, it doesn’t surprise me at all…just depresses me a bit….

  58. #58 Elliot
    April 28, 2008

    Ladies and gentlemen, your moment of zen.

    http://www.youtube.com/v/EyvUTWZC0xQ&hl

  59. #59 AlanWCan
    April 28, 2008

    Wow, better not tell him about clathrin then?
    We get our nutriment via a molecule in the shape of an ancient Manx symbol. Of course, the triskelion was kinda adopted by the nazis as well so where does that leave them?
    IDiots!
    Reminds me of a book I saw a few years ago by a Japanese loony who reckoned that water formed various kanji depending on the surroundings and reacted to the emotions in the air or something. Truly timecube-worthy stuff.

  60. #60 SMgr
    April 28, 2008

    > What does it mean to be “fearfully made?”

    Unfortunately, I understand the reference, having had it repeated over and over again in my childhood. :|

    Christians are told to “fear god”, which they’ve defined to mean something like “deeply respect and obey” in addition to the more obvious “be scared” reading.

    To be “fearfully made” is to so in awe of the complexity of the body that it promotes “fearing god”.

    Hope that helps. >:-)

  61. #61 TK Kenyon
    April 28, 2008

    Let’s hope nobody tells them about the proteasome, either, which looks like a big, uncircumcised johnson. Or a joint. Or a 3-pound burrito.

    I admit, I did not go watch the video. I do not need to waste a couple minutes of my life watching some Xian wax rhapsodic about the ribbon-and-stick theoretical structure of a protein. Gah!

    TK Kenyon
    Author of CALLOUS: A Novel, a story about free will, neuroscience, fate, Schrodinger’s Cat, and the End of Days. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1601640226

  62. #62 Chris
    April 28, 2008

    Godtube? You have got to be kidding me. How did I miss that one? Anyway, I was perusing the sight when I came across video on why bananas are The Atheists Nightmare.

  63. #63 Chris Hall
    April 28, 2008

    Wow, thanks PZ, I was really joking and not expecting that sort of result.

    So, let’s see, we have a protein that forms a cross and that proves Jesus looks over us.

    And we have one that looks like a swastika, so…

    I’m not sure where we go from here, it’s a pointless argument, mind you I must admit that my hands really do hold bananas really well.

  64. #64 kcrady
    April 28, 2008

    It’s not a cross, you numbskulls, it’s a Cadeuceus! Knob at the top, a pair of inter-twining serpents, seven divisions from bottom to top representing the seven metals and transformative stages of Alchemy. The outstretched “arms” you Christians mistake for the side-beams of a cross are simply the outstretched wings of the serpents of the Cadeuceus. Since when have there been any intertwining serpents or top-and-bottom knobs on a cross? Therefore, Hermeticism is true! All hail Hermes, Thrice Great!

    Or maybe it’s a diagram of the chakra system. The intertwining serpents are the Kundalini, the seven divisions the seven chakras. Therefore, Hinduism is true!

    The C-60 molecule is a geodesic sphere. Therefore, Buckminster Fuller is God! He also happens to have provided much more useful knowledge to the world than Jesus and all of his apostles put together.

    Even with the piano music, that preacher is still a whackaloon!

  65. #65 NP
    April 28, 2008

    Shh….nobody tell them that there’s angels in their cells. Big Science is suppressing this information.

  66. #66 Coriolis
    April 28, 2008

    Well, there you go. Swastikas in the brain? We have here the final proof that brains are evil and should never be used. Indeed, Ben Stein was right, understand evolution-> using brain-> swastika-> holocaust.

    QED.

  67. #67 Patricia C.
    April 28, 2008

    It took four doses of this to get through it. This is an outrage.
    I lived this bullshit for 50 years. I stood up and shouted at my computer screen at this ASS!
    Snake kissing, tongue speaking, and arm waving hymn singing is bullshit – I know – I DID it.
    It’s henshit crazy.
    My question is – WHY are they doing this? Why are the damned christo-tards going for science?*
    P.1287 Concise Oxford English Dictionary – just for fun.
    Christian fucktards. I’m so outraged I can’t even walk two steps behind my husband. This is SO bad I can’t puke enough.

  68. #68 JM Inc.
    April 28, 2008

    That video would have been funnier if the congregation didn’t make it so depressing. I believe I was so dumbfounded that I described the video to a friend as, “… this frothing nutbar ejaculating all over his congregation about…. Laminin”.

    Crass, I know, but then so is the preacher’s vision of what constitutes “reality”.

  69. #69 ISAIAH 62:11
    April 28, 2008

    You people are very smug, but as Bible says, “Only a fool says in his heart there is no God” (Psalm 14:1). And I know that you are going to say the Bible is NOT TRUE. But 2 Timothy 3:16 says that “all scripture is God-Breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be throughly equiped for every good work.”

    The Bible has manny prophessies that have all come true, so why do you not believe that the chemical glue that is Cross shaped is not fulfillment of Collosians 1:17? “He is before all things, and in Him ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER.”

    If you have an open mind, you will SEE THE TRUTH.

    “Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.” -Revelation 22:1-4

  70. #70 Numerical Thief
    April 28, 2008

    Reminds me of a book I saw a few years ago by a Japanese loony who reckoned that water formed various kanji depending on the surroundings and reacted to the emotions in the air or something. Truly timecube-worthy stuff.

    Wasn’t that also in that horrid abuse of physics called What the Bleep do We Know? God I hate that movie, it’s like three hours of meandering nonsense, and their grasp on quantum physics and biology (both were abused in the name of woo, to borrow from Orac) wasn’t even remotely relevant to this universe, or you know, any other universe.

  71. #71 JM Inc.
    April 28, 2008

    No offence, ISAIAH, but are you serious? I mean, really? You don’t see the logical problem with simply claiming that something is true? I’ve never understood the thought process that underlies the belief that something can be proven true by the fact that it claims itself to be true. What an odd thing to think. Besides, Laminin isn’t “glue”. It doesn’t work the same way. By “chemical glue” do you mean something like polyvinyl acetate? Does is your god really the god of glue stick prophecy?

    Besides, whether it says that “… in him all things consist” depends on your translation.

  72. #72 UprightAlice
    April 28, 2008

    I knew Manny Prophessies. Nice guy, but really bad breath.

  73. #73 Janine ID
    April 28, 2008

    The Bible has manny prophessies that have all come true, so why do you not believe that the chemical glue that is Cross shaped is not fulfillment of Collosians 1:17? “He is before all things, and in Him ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER.”

    And it is said in Janine 6:9;”Thou shall use the spellcheck I hath provided for your computer lest one looks like a dumbass.”

  74. #74 kcrady
    April 29, 2008

    Isaiah, are you so blinded by your false teaching that you cannot see the Cadeuceus in the laminin molecule? Can you show me a cross bearing intertwined serpents, as we clearly see in the laminin molecule?

    The Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus says, “As above, so below.” This clearly predicts the discovery of Copernicus, Kepler, and Newton, that the same principles of physics that apply on Earth, apply in the heavens–a concept that caught your Christian theologians by surprise, as they believed that the heavens (being God’s throne) operated according to different principles than those holding true on Earth.

    You are very smug, but that does not change the truth of the Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus. Will you make your computer keyboard an altar of God today, and accept Thrice Great Hermes into your heart? He put His Cadeuceus into your every little cell, to show you how much he loves you! How can you be so hard-hearted as to turn your back on Him? *tears*

  75. #75 Joshua Arnold
    April 29, 2008

    Isaiah, good point. But are you familiar with this Book of Truth?

    And the Lord Zeus spake unto the masses: Yea, I am thy lord. I made thee from the seed of my loins, which I spilt upon the fertile earth. And from this sticky pools of HOLY LIFE emerged MAN, resplendent in glory. And woman emerged five feet behind.

    Heard it? Probably not, since I just made it up. But it has just as much credibility as your quotations. Especially since it goes on:

    This is the Holy Word of Zeus and his Prophets. It is the Zeus-breathed truth. Let all men bow before its glory.

    I’ll admit, to really appreciate it, you have to read it in its original COMIC SANS.

    For the glory of Zeus!

  76. #76 Etha Williams
    April 29, 2008

    Wait a minute.

    Did he say, “Cells organize into certain molecular structures, and that determines what protein they are?”

    WTF?

    Also, seriously, does he actually think laminin is the only cell adhesion molecule in the body? The glue that’s holding our bodies together? Give me a break.

    Dscam is a much cooler (set of) cell adhesion molecules anyway.

  77. #77 MikeK
    April 29, 2008

    Godbot @69. Projecting any, you smug anti-rational lackwit? Do you have any new real evidence for your fairy tale, or do we just have to watch you wave your book of middle eastern mythology around? Yawn.

  78. #78 Joshua Arnold
    April 29, 2008

    The scariest part of that video, for me as a recovering Fundie , is realizing that just a few months ago, I would have eaten that shit up. He would’ve put that slide up and I, like that audience, would have seen God without the speaker having to say anything.

    That scares the shit out of me.

    And makes me increasingly grateful for the rationality that saved from all that.

  79. #79 ISAIAH 62:11
    April 29, 2008

    Joshua Arnold (#75),

    Zeus is not real. The Bible says that the LORD is the only God we are to worship: “if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your forefathers for ever and ever.” Jeremiah 6:26.

    You Athiests can’t even use good logic. An analogy is only good if its real. Zeus is NOT REAL.

  80. #80 minimalist
    April 29, 2008

    So does this mean that kids with progeria have no Jebus in them at all?

    That’s cruel, man, just cruel.

  81. #81 Joshua Arnold
    April 29, 2008

    #79

    Ah, but here you are wrong, my poorly deluded friend. For as the Good Book says:

    Zeus is the only true god. All other gods are evil little demons trying to confuse you. Do not listen to them.

  82. #82 Janine ID
    April 29, 2008

    ISAIAH 62:11, guess what? Every monotheistic religion claims it is real. Your bible saying that is nothing special. Here is an other guess what. You, I and everybody else who posts here will agree the Zeus is not real.

  83. #83 room101
    April 29, 2008

    Uhhhhhh….Isaiah. Tell that to the bazillions of Greeks who worshiped him. And he was the king of Gods, so watch your mouth, troll, or he’ll thunderbolt your ass.

    PS: You better not come to this blog just to quote scripture brother….you’re gonna have to do better than that.

  84. #84 kcrady
    April 29, 2008

    The Bible is true, because it says so in the Bible? Isaiah, can’t you see that anybody could make the same claim for their holy-book of preference? The Quran says the Quran is true, too.

    The Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus says that Hermes Trismegistus exists, therefore, he does. Besides, “Emerald Tablet” is just cooler than “collection of papyrus and parchment scrolls” (i.e. “the Bible”). So it must be true! Yahweh is NOT REAL. See? I can assert stuff in all-caps too!

  85. #85 Etha Williams
    April 29, 2008

    From the OP:

    Also depressing: google for laminin, and aside from the Wikipedia entry, the top references right now are all to Christian kooks babbling about this trivial shape story. What a sad fate for a developmentally and evolutionarily significant molecule that has roots right down at the base of the metazoan family tree. I cringe to see these loons abusing molecular biology to cheerlead for superstition.

    Might I suggest google-bombing sites that provide actually scientifically valid information about Laminin?

    (These 9 sites were chosen simply because after wikipedia, which I think already has a solid #1 lead over the babbling Xian sites, these are the first 9 non-crazy Laminin sites that currently come up on google.)

    Click away….

  86. #86 ISAIAH 62:11
    April 29, 2008

    I am a victim of Poe’s law.

  87. #87 Stanton
    April 29, 2008

    If you have an open mind, you will SEE THE TRUTH.

    Appealing to have an open mind does not mean that you should keep your mind so open that your brain falls out to leave your emptied cranium to confuse the squish of your frontal lobes with an epiphany. This is not a good or acceptable choice, in fact.

    Furthermore, can someone please tell me why is it that those people who make a bully pulpit plea to “be more open-minded” are inevitably those people who have welded their own garbage-filled skulls shut?

    Maybe JanineID?

  88. #88 Etha Williams
    April 29, 2008

    @#79 ISAIAH –

    Zeus is not real. The Bible says that the LORD is the only God we are to worship: “if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your forefathers for ever and ever.” Jeremiah 6:26.

    You Athiests can’t even use good logic. An analogy is only good if its real.

    Ok, so your argument is: the LORD God wrote the Bible, so the Bible is true; the Bible says that God exists and is the only God to be worshiped, so God must exist and we must worship only Him.

    You Christians (or bored trolls, whichever you may be) can’t use good logic at all. An argument is only good if its conclusion isn’t already stated in its premise. You fail.

  89. #89 Kseniya
    April 29, 2008

    Only a fool says in his heart there is no God” (Psalm 14:1).

    Only a fool would fail to take advantage of our money-back guarantee to try the Popeet Pocket Fisherman, risk-free, for 30 days!” (Ron Popeet)

  90. #90 JM Inc.
    April 29, 2008

    Actually at #85 he said he was a victim of Poe’s law. I wasn’t sure, that’s why I asked if he was serious.

  91. #91 Robert Thille
    April 29, 2008

    Heh, swastikas… sometimes when I make the coffee in the morning my wife gets a heart with the whip cream, and sometimes she gets the swastika…
    BTW, I call Poe’s law on #79 ( ISAIAH 62:11 | April 29, 2008 12:10 AM )

  92. #92 mothra
    April 29, 2008

    Hast thee not gazed in wonderment at the walnut. Thy deep convolutions show this seed be goode to injest for it enhancith intelligence and by its mere size strongly resembleth the Christian brain.

  93. #93 Janine ID
    April 29, 2008

    I am a victim of Poe’s law.

    Posted by: ISAIAH 62:11

    Now how can you be a victim when you did this to yourself? You knew what would happen when you drop scripture like droppings from Cloudcuckooland?

    Furthermore, can someone please tell me why is it that those people who make a bully pulpit plea to “be more open-minded” are inevitably those people who have welded their own garbage-filled skulls shut?

    Maybe JanineID?

    Posted by: Stanton

    Just what are you asking of me?

  94. #94 Kseniya
    April 29, 2008

    Zeus is not real. . . . Zeus is NOT REAL.

    Uh… I respectfully suggest that, for the next few years, you refrain from playing golf unless the sky is LITERALLY CLOUDLESS.

    I offer this advice in the most friendly, concerned, and loving way imaginable.

  95. #95 ISAIAH 62:11
    April 29, 2008

    I guess the ALL CAPS and bad spelling (and bad reasoning) made it all a bit too realistic.

  96. #96 Toby
    April 29, 2008

    < sarcasm >Wow. I was really starting to doubt my atheism with Comfort’s banana, but now Laminin?! Proof right there. There is only one god. How could I have been so blind?!< /sarcasm >

  97. #97 Janine ID
    April 29, 2008

    ISAIAH 62:11, just remember the moral of Kurt Vonnegut’s Mother Night, be careful of what you pretend to be. Oh, and who is behind the mask?

  98. #98 JERI 7:9
    April 29, 2008

    I guess the ALL CAPS and bad spelling (and bad reasoning) made it all a bit too realistic.

    Yes… yes, I guess it did!

  99. #99 Etha Williams
    April 29, 2008

    @#94 ISAIAH –

    I guess the ALL CAPS and bad spelling (and bad reasoning) made it all a bit too realistic.

    Yeah.

    Anymore, I put any sarcastic comments in [sarcasm] delimiters just to be safe…you can never be too careful with Poe’s Law.

  100. #100 room101
    April 29, 2008

    Wow. Guess we got “got”. But you did pick on Zeus, a fan fav, so you had it coming ;o)

  101. #101 mothra
    April 29, 2008

    Note that the speaker referred to the picture as a ‘scientific diagram,’ stealing the aegis of science to add legitimacy to fantasy. Oh they of little faith.

  102. #102 marc buhler (phd)
    April 29, 2008

    ROTFL – without looking at the comments at all….

    “nobody tell them about tRNA” – that made my day right there!!

    I am sure a heap of comments played off that, but let me add (since I have yet to read comments here…) we *should* tell them!! Let’s make tRNA “GOD” (or is it “doG”? I forget…)

  103. #103 Joshua Arnold
    April 29, 2008

    Poe’s Law, in the case study of this site at least, has a corollary:

    No matter how stupid and over-the-top you make yourself appear, you will still appear serious.

  104. #104 waldteufel
    April 29, 2008

    People can be this stupid. Amazing.

  105. #105 PAP
    April 29, 2008

    I Can’t wait until the creationists get a decent nanotech team. I’m looking forward to the billion dollar project for a molecular reenactment of the nativity scene.

  106. #106 antaresrrichard
    April 29, 2008

    Veerrry interestin- GOODNESS, what the Hell was I thinking?!

  107. #107 Quidam
    April 29, 2008

    It looks to me much more like the medical caduceus – a rod entwined by two snakes and topped by a pair of wings, which originated as the magic staff of Mercury (Hermes)

    Mercury was the messenger of the gods, conductor of the dead and protector of merchants and thieves.

    That makes more sense – we are held together by messages from thieves and merchants

    WE’RE SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM
    SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM
    SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM
    SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM
    SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM
    SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus

  108. #108 David Brown
    April 29, 2008

    That was kind of scary. I used to be the guy playing the sappy piano accompaniment. Maybe there is a career for me to accompany biology lectures.

    Actually, I used to hate playing the sappy music. I was always concerned it would sound too much like something and distract from the, well, nonsense being preached. I wish I would have though to play distracting music, it might have helped.

  109. #109 matt
    April 29, 2008

    if jesus’ word and such are so real and convincing, why do they need mood music playing in the background?

  110. #110 RamblinDude
    April 29, 2008

    “…is in the perfect shape of the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ!”

    Yeah, if you crossed him with a big lipped, mohawked clown in floppy shoes.

    ROTFLMAO!

    Big. Damn. Insane asylum.

  111. #111 Rey Fox
    April 29, 2008

    I checked Isaiah 62:11 to see if the text of that verse was meant to be the tip-off that the person was joking. Here it is from the KJV:

    “Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.”

    (Humperdido!)

    So, the usual gobbledygook then. Inconclusive.

  112. #112 ISAIAH 62:11
    April 29, 2008

    #110 (Rey Fox): “I checked Isaiah 62:11 to see if the text of that verse was meant to be the tip-off that the person was joking.”

    I was considering something along the lines of Deuteronomy 23:9-10 or Deuteronomy 21:18-21, but ended up just picking out a quote at random.

    I figured that my insistence in #79 that “Zeus is NOT REAL” would have cleared everything up. #90 caught it, but rereading #79 myself, I see Joshua Arnold’s point that “No matter how stupid and over-the-top you make yourself appear, you will still appear serious.”

  113. #113 raven
    April 29, 2008

    Xian Soldier:

    You people are very smug, but as Bible says, “Only a fool says in his heart there is no God” (Psalm 14:1).

    INCOMING!!! TAKE COVER!!!

    Just detected a cruise missile heading this way. It appears to be a PSALM 14 manufactured in the middle east and carrying a warhead of vacuous verbiage.

    Ooppssss!!! There are a few more on the way.

    …….Looks like they fell way short. Barely got off the launching pad.

    Perimeter defense just sighted a Tinfoil Hat squad wandering aimlessly around the internet and fired a few rounds of REALITY at them to no effect.

  114. #114 Quiet Desperation
    April 29, 2008

    Looks more like the “open Apple” symbol than a swastica.

    http://www.macseason.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/150px-apple_key.jpg

  115. #115 Janine ID
    April 29, 2008

    ISAIAH 62:11, it usually takes time to figure if a person is kidding or serious. It took me a little while to catch on to Mark Witt. But claiming to be a victim of Poe’s Law was funny. You cracked too soon. And I am sorry to have called you a dumbass. But in mine defense, I thought you were serious.

    Now who is behind the mask?

  116. #116 Ichthyic
    April 29, 2008

    Just detected a cruise scud missile

    :p

  117. #117 Jesus has a hash pipe
    April 29, 2008

    Posted by: ISAIAH 62:11 | April 28, 2008 11:42 PM

    Crack is BAD for you, STOP SMOKING IT!

  118. #118 deang
    April 29, 2008

    Christianist awe before the Roman execution instrument that they’ve chosen as their symbol is so baffling. I’ve made some of them angry before merely by pointing out that many thousands of people were put to death on crosses by the Romans, not just Jesus. And as comedian Bill Hicks used to suggest, “You think if Jesus does return he’s ever gonna wanna see a cross again?”

  119. #119 Andrew
    April 29, 2008

    You know, I obviously just glossed over the part where you said he showed a diagram of the molecule. I was expecting something real, like an SEM image.

    But the guy gives us a man-made diagram–made for the express purpose of presenting the structure in its simplest possible form–and that’s suppose to be the great proof?

    You know, when you take the subway, you really are going in a perfectly straight line from station to station. And those outlining stations are so freakishly close together–it seems so pointless to have a station every five feet in the boonies, but to have stations spread so far apart downtown.

    Though, maybe it’s just drawn that way to make it simpler to follow and remember…. Nah.

  120. #120 rpenner
    April 29, 2008

    Remind me again why Christians venerate the torture instrument used by the Romans? Is it to ward off vampire-Jesus?

    Anyway, even if we were talking about actual crucifixes here, the scene is not so much of Golgotha, redux, but like the final scenes of Spartacus.

    I’m a glycoprotein! — No, I’m a glycoprotein!

  121. #121 AlanWCan
    April 29, 2008

    Avast, a Molly please for kcrady #74!

  122. #122 Etha Williams
    April 29, 2008

    @#119 rpenner –

    Remind me again why Christians venerate the torture instrument used by the Romans? Is it to ward off vampire-Jesus?

    Well if you want to get into vampirism…it’s the Xians who claim to drink blood every week.

  123. #123 Danny Schade
    April 29, 2008

    As a former Christian (now atheist) I have a significant understanding of how this guy and the people in the audience feel. I mean, you heard the sappy music and the appeal to emotions. Like it or not, sermons/revivals like that are INTENSELY powerful to people within that culture.

    If you’re not familiar with being a born-again, you might not appreciate the kind of comfort and hope you get from that and how real it feels to them. I agree that a sober look at the whole thing shows that his claim is totally stupid, but I could not bring myself to laugh at these people. I really feel sorry for them that their emotions and their life is so caught up in the hype and the false promises and imaginary friends. I know the pain of losing an imaginary friend as an adult. It’s a bizzare experience and it sounds silly, but it really is human nature that makes us so suceptable to that kind of thing. And we’re wired to feel the same love, affection and everything with any relationship, be it real or imagined. I really feel sorry for those people more than anything.

    Forgive them, PZ. For they know not what they do.

  124. #124 Dave Child
    April 29, 2008

    Perhaps this is an opportunity. Jesusists love wearing their crosses as a public symbol of their delusion – perhaps biologists should start wearing laminin representations around their necks in support of rationality!

    Plus, laminin has the added benefit of not being a barbaric device of torture, making it far more suitable for jewellery purposes.

  125. #125 sacredchao
    April 29, 2008

    I don’t want jebus to carry me. That would be yucky.

  126. #126 Sioux Laris
    April 29, 2008

    Actually, (#117) I can see the retired, slightly tubby, more humorously-inclined, slightly forgetful Jesus talking to his grandchildren about the hot stuff rabble-rouser he was in his younger days.
    You know, he sees some other guy being crucified, points, and the following dialogue unwinds:

    Jesus: “Now me, I got through that and worse! I ever tell you about the Crown o’ Thorns?”

    Jesus III: [rolls eyes] “About a million times, Grampa!”

    Jesus: “Your Granny and my ma were right put out about it! They thought that was it for me, but I had a couple of tricks left, I did. Me and my possum! Roll away the stone – HA-HA!”

    Jesus III: “It’s ‘posse’ not ‘possum’!”

    Jesus: “Yeah. And did you know my Old Dad put those into all our molecule laminin in memory of that!”

    Jesus III: [rolls eyes again, mumbles]

    —Later, talking with his sister, Mary Mary Mary—

    Jesus III: Grandpa was a big success and all, but he never gives great-grandpa Joseph credit for ANYTHING with him! Always, his “heavenly” ****! I’m gonna treat OUR dad way better!

    Mary Mary Mary: Yeah! Grandpa really expected the world of him and he turns out to be just a really good carpenter! Like he was supposed to get nailed up on something just because he had the name? There are better things to do! And he’s a great guy, too!

  127. #127 Rey Fox
    April 29, 2008

    Hmm, upon further examination, the swastika protein is actually a proper swastika, that is to say that it would spin clockwise in the wind, rather than counterclockwise. So perhaps it’s not as evil as all that.

  128. #128 Andreas Johansson
    April 29, 2008

    Would there happen to be a biomolecule that looks like an “A”?

  129. #129 Etha Williams
    April 29, 2008

    Oh Great Darwin!

    The American Atheists Symbol looks strikingly like the out-dated, incorrect Rutherford model of the atom.

    Obviously, this is a sign that atheists (at least, those in America) should recant their sinful, backwards, non-quantized ways.

    /sarcasm

  130. #130 Barno
    April 29, 2008

    You sure went to the bottom of the barrel with this one.
    I’ve discovered that Christians are much like mutations: the good ones are few and far between.

  131. #131 negentropyeater
    April 29, 2008

    Poor guy. Doesn’t he realise that this is precisely the kind of “demonstration” that provokes otherwise honest, reasonable, rational people to become so passionately outspoken against this kind of foolishness ?

    Dishonesty is always, always, always, the first thing that strikes me with these people.

    It’s not a question of faith, of inner beliefs, for the learned one these are personal interpretations. But why declare them ? Why not keep it for one’s self ? Why the need to be so outspoken ? What are they trying to prove ?

    But this kind of farce, Evangelicalism, is the worst thing that happened to Christianity since the council of Nicea.

  132. #132 Billy Sands
    April 29, 2008

    You are fearfully and wonderfully made is from psalm 139:14. verse 13 says god makes people in utero. Why do they never bang on about god making cripples or being responsible for schistosomus reflectus etc?

    I believe there is a role for laminins in Alzheimers disease – enough said!

    PS should the picture not be the other way up?

  133. #133 Angel Rose Young
    April 29, 2008

    I managed to get the part where God would hold their hands and carry them all the days of their lives before my stomach finally turned and I began to wretch involuntarily.

    On Sunday, April 27, I lost a very good friend to cancer. The one friend, by the way, who stood at my side relentlessly when my husband was dying of the same disease at the end of 2003…

    …but God has a plan, so I’m told. He knows what he is doing. God is taking them home because they are special and he has a reason for needing them there with him…

    So he gives them cancer??? Why can’t they just die peacefully in their sleep??? What’s the point??? Why can’t they see what a sadistic and morbid motherfucker their YHWH god really is???

  134. #134 clinteas
    April 29, 2008

    This has to be the most disgusting part of the whole religion sham,this attempt at justifying death,rape,suffering with some higher motive rubbish lalala,makes me want to hit something….

  135. #135 matosa
    April 29, 2008

    That second electron microscope photo didn’t look at all like a cross, looked to me more like a sprinter.

  136. #136 Laser Potato
    April 29, 2008

    Wait! That’s not a swastika, that’s a manji! It’s facing the other way!

  137. #137 Lee Ann
    April 29, 2008
  138. #138 Fernando Magyar
    April 29, 2008

    Re: #93,

    A helmeted bicyclist experienced a lightning strike to the head under fair weather conditions with a cloudless sky.

    He didn’t believe in Zeus either.

    http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/faq/faq_ltg.php/

    I live in Florida the lightning capital of the world, though rare, Zeus does sometimes sends us bolts of lightning from a cloudless sky. Then again maybe it was Thor I live near Dania beach.

  139. #139 Hematite
    April 29, 2008

    ISIAH 62:11(#79):

    I know that you are going to say the Bible is NOT TRUE. But 2 Timothy 3:16 says…

    ISIAH 62:11(#85):

    I am a victim of Poe’s law.

    Ah, I knew it looked too good to be true. I didn’t catch the “manny prophessies” the first read through, that would have tipped me off for sure. Very nice, I think it’s good to be reminded that ridiculous statements are sometimes… merely ridiculous. Lighten the mood and all that.

  140. #140 OJR
    April 29, 2008

    Just a quick question: what is LORD an acronym of? I’ve seen loads of american fundamentalist bible quotes and it seems to be always capped, alongside some other words, but mostly just LORD. It’s never written correctly, as in “lord”, so I think it has to have some meaning then.

  141. #141 Laser Potato
    April 29, 2008

    OJR, it’s not an acronym for anything. That sort of random capitalization appears in the Bible itself.

  142. #142 Dave
    April 29, 2008

    That was amazing I was touched, Praise the lord, praise laminin.

    I would like to share a bible verse with you all.

    Matthew 5:9
    Blessed are the cheesemakers, for they will be called the children of God.

  143. #143 PZ Myers
    April 29, 2008

    Lunatic Outcome of Raving Dementia.

  144. #144 Scott
    April 29, 2008

    My favorite part is that the molecule in the electron micrograph isn’t even a cruciform, but they still applaud like fools.

  145. #145 J
    April 29, 2008

    #141

    “Ahh, what’s so special about the cheesemakers?”

    “Well, obviously, it’s not meant to be taken literally; it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.”

  146. #146 MPM
    April 29, 2008

    I see. So if you don’t have Jesus inside you, deep, deep inside of your cells, you have congenital muscular dystrophy.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/dispomim.cgi?id=607855

  147. #147 Colin J
    April 29, 2008

    I think my brain cells just lost some laminin and a few of them popped.

  148. #148 Courtney
    April 29, 2008

    You know, swastikas are also religious symbols…

  149. #149 Bob L
    April 29, 2008

    Danny Schade As a former Christian (now atheist) I have a significant understanding of how this guy and the people in the audience feel. I mean, you heard the sappy music and the appeal to emotions. Like it or not, sermons/revivals like that are INTENSELY powerful to people within that culture.

    I thought that was pretty obvious from watching the video the emotional manipulation being done. The way it was going the preacher could have shown PZ’s swastika molecule and the audience would have oohed and awed. The thing that amazes me is people will let themselves get into a situation like those people in the audience.

  150. #150 ZwaM
    April 29, 2008

    This must be disturbing news for catholics: a protestant cross, not a crucifix keeps their bodies from falling apart.

  151. #151 Kay
    April 29, 2008

    I’m struck by the length of his neck and how short his arms were. Thank Bejeebus that Jesus was a demi-god and we were only made in the “image” of god. How would I get my shoes on?

  152. #152 g
    April 29, 2008

    OJR, Laser Potato, PZ: The capitalized “LORD” means that the original had “YHWH” (supposedly the name of God). The OT uses a number of different words to refer to God — perhaps the result of merging a bunch of different traditions, or something. YHWH is simply a name; “Elohim” more or less means “gods” (yes, it’s plural; polytheistic origins, presumably); “Adonai” means “lord”. They all get used pretty much interchangeably. So English translations usually do something like: Elohim -> God; Adonai -> Lord; YHWH -> LORD. A few translations render YHWH as “Yahweh”, which seems more sensible.

    If anyone’s watching for comment spam, note that “Lee Ann” @ #136 appears to be such. Not that it matters too much in view of rel=”nofollow”.

  153. #153 This Dude
    April 29, 2008

    Another religious person seeing life with religious glasses on. Human brains see patterns its only natural that these fools relate everything back to their mythos even if they are replacing again, ever so tritely cause and effect literally for God and effect. Its what they’ve always done and its what they’ll always do and this guy will continue to capitalize on group think, group bias, and sappy stories with promises of love from imaginary people and everlasting life in an imaginary land. Shaman haven’t changed much, the pagans had them, the Indians had them they were all called different things, but if there was any honesty in the world they should be called con men.

  154. #154 Squidworthy
    April 29, 2008

    #139

    LORD is written that way because it is the translation of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH).

  155. #155 raven
    April 29, 2008

    Biologically, they got it wrong. Not that these clowns would know what a fact is, or care.

    Collagen keeps us together. IIRC, the most abundant protein in the body is collagen. It makes up much of the organic part of bones, various connective tissues such a ligaments, tendons, walls of blood vessels etc..

    Collagen would fit in with the Norse or old MesoAmerican Indian religions. It is a long snakelike molecule.

  156. #156 Kay
    April 29, 2008

    This bio-diety model certainly puts the holy hierarchy into perspective. I’m putting my money on Ra.

  157. #157 aleprechaunist
    April 29, 2008

    Wow… I can just imagine Our Saviour’s tortured form nailed to those flailing strands… Funny yet tragic at the same time!!

  158. #158 This Dude
    April 29, 2008

    g -”Elohim” more or less means “gods” (yes, it’s plural; polytheistic origins, presumably)

    Yeah Elohim is used in late Ugaritic text and is plural referring to a pantheon of Gods, in their Polytheistic/Henotheistic* system. Eloah is singular and El is the Jewish supreme father god in their pantheon. Which archeology has shown before 700 BCE to have Yahweh effectively paired with Asherah his wife after 700 BCE she was ridden of with developing Judaism.

    It makes reference to both Yahweh being merely the son of gods, and suggests that El was greater than Yahweh. Psalm 29, understood as an enthronement psalm, begins:

    A Psalm of David.
    Ascribe to Yahweh, sons of gods,
    Ascribe to Yahweh, glory and strength

    Psalm 89:6 verse 7 in Hebrew has:

    For who in the skies compares to Yahweh,
    who can be likened to Yahweh among the sons of gods.

    Psalm 82.1 says:

    ‘el?hîm (‘God’) stands in the council of ‘?l
    he judges among the gods (elohim).

    Ezekiel 28.2 in the oracle against Tyre:

    Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre: “Thus says the Lord Yahweh: ‘Because your heart is proud and you have said: “I am ‘?l, in the seat of ‘el?hîm (God or gods), I am enthroned in the middle of the seas.” Yet you are man and not ‘?l even though you have made your heart like the heart of ‘el?hîm (‘God’ or ‘gods’).’”

    etc. etc.

    Christian theologists call this the Godhead revealed in the Tanakh, Elohim, conformation of the trinity and El as simply God. Latter Day Saints sects takes it further and claims Yahweh to be identified as Jesus Christ. This is clearly hindsight bias and ridicules because surely the earlier Jews who wrote the text did not carry this interpretation, but whatever.

  159. #159 LARA
    April 29, 2008

    I see no swastika. A swastika has only four bent projections, not eight alternating bent and straight slightly connected projections. I do believe I need some crayon marks to help me out on this one.

  160. #160 andrew
    April 29, 2008

    LOL PZ, I thought this was just a regular kook vid, but the laminin part is where I lost it. Wtf lol.

  161. #161 RamblinDude
    April 29, 2008

    Danny Schade 122#: “If you’re not familiar with being a born-again, you might not appreciate the kind of comfort and hope you get from that and how real it feels to them. I agree that a sober look at the whole thing shows that his claim is totally stupid, but I could not bring myself to laugh at these people.”

    It might surprise you to know that for many of us who read this blog, you’re preaching to the choir. Many here grew up with this crap. There are commenters here that can tell you horror stories. They snapped out of it, much as you seem to have, and are now part of the movement to help turn the tide and prevent Christian Evangelism from turning even more people into drooling idiots for Christ. It’s a movement, long overdue.

    We aren’t just hooting and hollering, we’re consciously and purposefully verbally slapping people in the face with the obvious–this stuff is stupid.

    Oh, and welcome back to reality.

  162. #162 PAP
    April 29, 2008

    For those that want the potassium channel to “spin the other way”, just imagine it from the other side of the protein. Then it gets real clockwise,real evil, and real quick.

  163. #163 Daniel
    April 29, 2008

    It is the reason why it is so difficult to see whether Edward Current’s videos are serious or not, when one does not know him : these preachers are so stupid that it is very difficult to be more stupid than them.

  164. #164 Mephistopheles
    April 29, 2008

    Nope. Situation is not as bad as that. Only two out of ten thumbnails for laminin were religious ones. Perhaps Google germany is a little less … polluted (but the search was worldwide).

  165. #165 Ian
    April 29, 2008

    Do three potassium channels together make ‘KKK’?

  166. #166 Holydust
    April 29, 2008

    I’m not sure why no one assumed that the “Poe’s Law” post was clearly someone else posting as the Godbot. Come on guys, common sense. I don’t think he was joking. I’m pretty sure the last post was just someone having fun at our expense (confusing the hell out of us).

    When someone posts a weird post that doesn’t compute, don’t make an ass out of yourself by assuming it’s definitely them. All someone has to do is type in your name.

  167. #167 David Marjanovi?, OM
    April 29, 2008

    Therefore, Hermeticism is true! All hail Hermes, Thrice Great!

    Not “thrice great” but “the thrice greatest”, tris megistos.

    I am a victim of Poe’s law.

    No wonder, because you merely repeated the usual godbotting, instead of parodizing it. Nobody was able to guess that that was supposed to be funny.

    That makes more sense – we are held together by messages from thieves and merchants

    WE’RE SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM

    LOL! How true, how true.

    Forgive them, PZ. For they know not what they do.

    But their ignorance is the very problem. It’s the reason for all the problems they cause.

    “Adonai” means “lord”.

    I’m told it’s also originally a plural…

  168. #168 David Marjanovi?, OM
    April 29, 2008

    I’m not sure why no one assumed that the “Poe’s Law” post was clearly someone else posting as the Godbot.

    Read the rest of the thread from there down.

    ————————

    I forgot to mention that ‘Eloha is the same as Aramaic ‘Ilahu and Arabic ‘Allah (that h at the end is pronounced, it’s not an ornament or something).

  169. #169 LARA
    April 29, 2008

    PAP, I spun it and got a pinwheel. It was beautiful, not evil. Imagination is what we make it. I see it as I want to, just like you. As far as science goes, there are no valid metaphors. It is only what it is due to function. Now tell me what the heck that black glob in the middle is supposed to be. A hole? A Potassium Ion? Dark matter?

  170. #170 Feynmaniac
    April 29, 2008

    The guy’s logic is obviously wrong, but isn’t his premise as well?
    “…is in the perfect shape of the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ!”
    Didn’t the Romans use crosses in the shape of a capital “T” rather than a lower-case “t”? Just one more possible hole in his ‘argument’.

  171. #171 oldtree
    April 29, 2008

    Isn’t that a picture of a slinky after a party of molecular investigators had their punch spiked?

  172. #172 Epikt
    April 29, 2008

    Kseniya:

    “Only a fool would fail to take advantage of our money-back guarantee to try the Popeet Pocket Fisherman, risk-free, for 30 days!” (Ron Popeet)

    Heh. Do you mean Ron Popeil? As in “Monster Trucks and Hair-in-a-Can?”

  173. #173 Zbu
    April 29, 2008

    Poe’s Law? Oh please, like we have time for trolls who love the works of Edgar Allen and his amazing killer gorillas. Be gone with you, Jesus Boy!

  174. #174 Mooser
    April 29, 2008

    Let me explain it in a song:

    Went to church, put me hand on the seat,
    Lady sat on it and says:
    “Daddy, You’se sweet!”
    It’s your diddy-wah-diddy!
    It’s the diddy-wah-diddy!
    Oh! I wish somebody could tell me
    What diddy-wah-diddy means!

    It’s a lot like evolution; if you know, you don’t even have to ask.

  175. #175 Pastafarian
    April 29, 2008

    I actually sat through a sermon where our pastor was going on about laminiumunumimian or whatever that goop is called.

    The faithful were eating it up. They actually broke into applause.

    I was trying not to snicker too loud– My wife has sharp elbows.

  176. #176 MarkM
    April 29, 2008

    random thoughts:

    “Hoah! I love laminin!”

    Most disgusting? The audience reactions: when they
    “gasp” at the laminin pictures or start a rumble of
    applause when the pictures come up. can we please keep
    it down? hemoglobin gets jealous.

    in this guy’s enthusiasm, we see a guy who misses his
    father, and finds a new Father. his whole sermon’s
    tone resemble a “My Daddy never loved me!” confession?

    all the awe that could be applied to this fascinating
    and complex world we have is instead redirected to the
    dead end of a theistic origin, and wasted: instead of
    the audience being moved to explore this “creation” more,
    they are rather guided to a simple, blinkered
    self-satisfaction. instead of opening our eyes and
    getting to the lab to find more “laminins” they instead
    are ushered to a prayer center to (literally) close their eyes.

  177. #177 Mark
    April 30, 2008

    Just because you can find an opinion from a few people that may seem like a reach, doesn’t prove your point that God is not the creator. How many ludicrous statements can we find from athiests?

  178. #178 David Marjanovi?, OM
    April 30, 2008

    Now tell me what the heck that black glob in the middle is supposed to be. A hole? A Potassium Ion? Dark matter?

    A potassium ion, to scale.

    Just because you can find an opinion from a few people that may seem like a reach, doesn’t prove your point that God is not the creator.

    Nobody said it does. Read again.

  179. #179 Nick
    April 30, 2008

    HAHAHAHA!!!! That is video is extremely funny.

  180. #180 Etha Williams
    April 30, 2008

    @#177 Mark –

    Just because you can find an opinion from a few people that may seem like a reach, doesn’t prove your point that God is not the creator.

    Just because you can find an opinion from a bunch of people that verifies your preexisting beliefs, doesn’t prove your point that God is the creator.

  181. #181 themadlolscientist
    April 30, 2008

    @Isaiah (#69):

    as Bible says, “Only [my emphasis. tmls] a fool says in his heart there is no God” (Psalm 14:1).

    Actually, it doesn’t. There’s no “only” in any version I’ve ever seen, not even the Vulgate, the Septuagint, the Hebrew Scriptures, or any surviving manuscript. I don’t know what Fundy Mentalist “translation” you’re using, but if this is any indication of its overall “quality,” you’re looking at EPIC BOGOSITY.

    [rant]

    Mistranslators like you desecrate the very Bible you claim to hold in such high esteem. FAIL x 666! Until you get your scholarship straight, you have nothing whatsoever to say that’s relevant even within the faith community. Now stop listening to your favorite big-haired televangelist or other power-intoxicated authoritarian preacher, go study the real thing, and come back when you actually know something about the Scriptures.

    [/rant]

    Everyone else: Sorry you had to listen to this, but few things in the universe piss me off more than idiots like this who don’t even know what their own Bible says……

  182. #182 Kseniya
    April 30, 2008

    You’re right, of course, themadlolscientist, but you must have skipped over the part where “Isaiah” revealed himself as a parodist of the faux-fundie variety… :-)

  183. #183 themadlolscientist
    April 30, 2008

    Sorry, I must have missed it and gone directly into Righteous Wrath Mode. I’ve spent so many years dealing with people who really do think like that, including one of my brothers, that my back tends to get up automatically. It’s one of maybe three things in the known universe that will get me even remotely close to flaming anyone. I used to laugh my ass off at ignorant whackballs like that; now that there are so many of them running around, they just depress me and piss me off.

    I think I’ll sit down and shut up for now, before I embarrass myself any more…….. but damn, that rant felt good!

    =8-O

  184. #184 Kseniya
    April 30, 2008

    Believe me, you are not alone.

  185. #185 Etha Williams
    April 30, 2008

    re: only the fool –

    While this was said by a parodist, I just looked up the various translations of Psalm 14 at bible.cc (a site that gives parallel translations of any verse) and found this funny translation from the God’s Word Translation:

    Godless fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” They are corrupt. They do disgusting things. There is no one who does good things.

    Curious, I looked up the GWT on wikipedia and learned this:

    GWT pundits believe that communicating the literal meaning of the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts that comprise the Scriptures so one can understand what the Bible means today, requires taking a completely new look at the original languages. Many modern translations, they argue, have chosen simply to follow the traditions of older accepted translations, though the traditional words and grammar may no longer mean what they once did, or are not understood.

    But what does the word “godless” add to this non-literal translation? Of course the godless (“fools”) say that there is no god. Isn’t that kind of the definition of being godless?! Seems redundant. Weird.

    Also interestingly, Young’s Literal Translation (pretty much the polar opposite of the GWT), says:

    A fool hath said in his heart, ‘God is not;’

    I’m curious if the use of the indefinite article is actually more correct than the use of the definite, but not knowing anything about Hebrew or semitic languages in general, I really wouldn’t be able to find out. For all I know, they don’t even differentiate between the definite and indefinite (this would be similar to, for example, Russian). Any help from people knowledgeable about ancient Hebrew language would be appreciated.

  186. #186 pedlar
    April 30, 2008

    re: only the fool –
    While this was said by a parodist, I just looked up the various translations of Psalm 14 …

    No,no,no…. Translation. Yur doing it wrong. This is how it goes.

    Psalm 14.1: Short bus kittehs say “No Ceiling Cat!” Theyz bad.

  187. #187 OrbitalMike
    April 30, 2008

    In response to all those leaving biblical quotes, I shall leave my favorite.

    Book of Armaments (Chapter 2, verses 9-21)
    …And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, “O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy.” And the Lord did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu…… And the Lord spake, saying, “First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.”
    rAmen

  188. #188 David Marjanovi?, OM
    April 30, 2008

    Mistranslators like you desecrate the very Bible you claim to hold in such high esteem. FAIL x 666!

    :-D

    Believe me, you are not alone.

    Pft. Nematomorph.

    I’m curious if the use of the indefinite article is actually more correct than the use of the definite, but not knowing anything about Hebrew or semitic languages in general, I really wouldn’t be able to find out.

    While AFAIK lacking an indefinite article, Hebrew has a definite one at AFAIK all attested stages of the language, ha-.

    Yur doing it wrong.

    UR DOIN IT RONG.

    Lest you ever forget the correct spelling of UR, gaze upon this picture.

  189. #189 savedbyHIM
    April 30, 2008

    Wednesday night, me and DJ got to go to the How Great Is Our God Concert to see Chris Tomlin and Matt Redmon lead worship and Louis Giglio deliver a short but great message about how great our God is. It was pretty amazing. We also had awesome seats and the best part about it was that it was all a blessing. We had the tickets given to us by a friend in St. Francisville. Louis Giglio (I think thats how his name is spelled) talked about all the galaxies and the stars and how big they are and, in reality, how small we are. It was eye-opening. The best part was when he started to talk about this really small molecule called Laminin. This molecule was recently discovered and its purpose is basically “the glue” of our body. It holds our skin together, holds our muscles and bones together. Without it, we’d fall apart. There are millions and millions of tiny little Laminins holding us together. The coolest part about it? Its genetic structure is shaped like a cross.

    How awesome is that? God is so cool. We have a millions and millions of tiny crosses holding us together! How true is that? Without the cross, we’d all fall apart. I would love to expound on that even more (is expound a word?) but I have to go review my notes because we have to preach today. Wish me luck! Here are two pictures from the concert…

  190. #190 Etha Williams
    April 30, 2008

    @#189 savedbyHIM –

    Please please please tell me you are a Poe?

  191. #191 savedbyHIM
    April 30, 2008

    Poe? What’s that? I’m glad to see you atheists beginning to recognize that even your science teaches about HIS power. Laminin is truly a miracle. No matter how far from God we stray. Even to the most secularist halls of academia – there is always a testament in nature to its creator – God’s only begotten Son. This Laminin only proves that in Him, we truly live!

  192. #192 Ichthyic
    April 30, 2008

    Here are two pictures from the concert…

    since there aren’t, I’m guessing the whole thing is a cut and paste job by someone trying to have some fun.

    just in case, though:

    How awesome is that? God is so cool. We have a millions and millions of tiny crosses holding us together!

    dude, have you like, ever looked at the back of your hand? I mean REALLY looked at it?

  193. #193 savedbyHIM
    April 30, 2008

    Yeah, I tried to paste them into this with html tags, didn’t work.

    why are you atheists so bitter when even your science debunks your faith-based belief system?

  194. #194 themadlolscientist
    May 1, 2008

    savedbyHIM fulminates:

    why are you atheists so bitter when even your science debunks your faith-based belief system?

    Hmmmmmmmmm……… sounds like someone needs a good faith-based ass-kicking. At the risk of having been provoked by another mock-Fundy pseudo-rant, I’m going to jump in again. Guess some people never learn. =8-O and :-) simultaneously

    (righteous wrath)

    We’re not all atheists here. I’m a lifelong Baptist who grew up on a seminary campus (my dad’s a Rev). I’m most definitely not bitter, but I’m beyond angry at the gross, stubbornly defended, willful ignorance on the part of Fundamentalist fools like you.

    It’s sacrilegious, an insult to the Ground of All Being, to hide behind your mistranslated, overly narrow, selectively “literal,” limited reading of the Scriptures and extrapolate that defective view to try to “explain” the physical world instead of looking objectively at it and learning what science reveals about God’s universe. (Hint: It has nothing at all to do with itty bitty crosses holding anyone, or anything, together.) Your refusal to read “the book of the universe” on its own terms is a failure of faith rather than an expression of it. Why are you afraid to read that book?

    Science, including the fact (yes, fact) of evolution and the theory that describes it, need not be a religious issue or a threat to faith. I’ve certainly never found it to be so, nor have countless others, including many (if not most) of the greatest scientific minds throughout history.

    Science neither proves faith (or nonfaith) nor “debunks” it. It isn’t intended to. Science deals entirely with the workings of the physical universe and has nothing whatsoever to say about anything supernatural (including a Supreme Being of any kind). Any effort to mix the two does unspeakable violence to both and is doomed to fail on both counts.

    As I see it, atheism is a separate issue. For many people I’ve known, their atheism (or agnosticism) seems due as much to past life experience and rejection of Fundamentalist stupidity as anything. I’m continually struck by how many atheists I’ve known have come directly out of strict Fundamentalist or conservative Evangelical environments. It seems to me that for many such people, their “rejection of God” is as much a case of throwing the baby of faith out with the bathwater of a woefully mangled belief system as anything.

    (Disclaimer: That’s just one woman’s conjecture, not intended to be representative of anyone else here, and definitely not a theory. Your mileage may vary; always wear your seat belt.)

    Stubbornly defended, willful ignorance of both the universe and the Scriptures is the worst form of stupidity and, as I said before, a gross insult to the God you profess to believe in. The ridiculous crap promoted by people like you does far more to shoot faith in the foot than science ever did.

    God gave you a brain, and it’s not just there to fill up the space between your ears. Get your brainwashed head out of your ass, look around, learn the true facts of God’s amazing universe, get some real biblical scholarship, and come back when you have something intelligent to say.

    (/righteous wrath)

  195. #195 Kseniya
    May 1, 2008

    Pft. Nematomorph.

    *giggle*

  196. #196 themadlolscientist
    May 1, 2008

    (Pls XQs the two in a row here)

    @savedbyHIM (#191): You asked about Poe and Poe’s Law.

    From the Urban Dictionary:

    Poe’s Law: Similar to Murphy’s Law, Poe’s Law concerns internet debates, particularly regarding religion or politics.

    Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won’t mistake for the real thing.

    In other words, No matter how bizzare, outrageous, or just plain idiotic a parody of a Fundamentalist may seem, there will always be someone who cannot tell that it is a parody, having seen similar REAL ideas from real religious/political Fundamentalists.

    (Term coined by Nathan Poe on christianforums.com)

    Also from the Urban Disctionary:

    Poe: A person who writes a parody of a Fundamentalist that is mistaken for the real thing. Due to Poe’s Law, it is almost impossible to tell if a person is a Poe unless they admit to it.

    “Isaiah 62:11″ turned out to be a Poe, and my rant (#181) in response was a case of Poe’s Law in action. I’m so embarrassed! =8-O

    I think I’ll sit down and shut up for a while. All right, you people! I hear that loud cheering! :-)

  197. #197 FastLane
    May 1, 2008

    What was that one gassy galaxy that the American Athiests chairwoman showed that looks just like a giant hand giving the universe “the bird”

    Google: Keyhole nebula carina

    http://heritage.stsci.edu/2000/06/big.html

    God’s real final message to creation, right there for all to see.

    Cheers

  198. #198 Kseniya
    May 1, 2008

    Laminin is truly a miracle.

    Lanolin and Linoleum aren’t bad, either.

    You know, when a sniper lines up a killing shot in his ‘scope, he’s sighting his target through a tiny cross. Praise God!

    I wonder if God meant for the Romans create the cross – a torture and execution device, of course – and for them to torture and execute hundreds or thousands of (sometimes innocent) people over a period of many years, just so that a couple of thousand years later, geeks like us could “oooh” and “ahhh” about the holy cosmic meaning of the amazing fact that not all lines are parallel. God is Merciful!

  199. #199 Kseniya
    May 1, 2008

    (/righteous wrath) ~ themadlolscientist

    Remind me not to incur it. ;-)

  200. #200 Etha Williams
    May 1, 2008

    @#191 savedbyHim –

    Poe? What’s that?

    Either this is an act of meta-Poeism, or you actually are being serious. In the first case, thank you for giving me a good laugh. In the second case, thank you for giving me a good laugh, and I’m sorry about your no doubt frequently reinforced delusional beliefs.

    As for your “scientific” claims, I think the previous posts have already done a fine job debunking them.

  201. #201 savedbyHIM
    May 1, 2008

    Ok. I’ll fess up, it is my attempt to impersonate a fundy. Or did someone else steal my i.d. in here and feign a ‘poester’ feigning to be a fundy?

  202. #202 savedbyHIM
    May 1, 2008

    BTW, I want that post cited. I created the noun Poester (as in POE who posts or poes (e.g. writes a parody of a Fundamentalist that is mistaken for the real thing. Due to Poe’s Law, it is almost impossible to tell if a person is a Poe unless they admit to it).

  203. #203 Justin
    May 2, 2008

    Did anyone else notice that, when the preacher gave a picture of the REAL thing — on which the clean-cut structural drawing was based — everyone took a few moments to clap, and then still had a hard time cheering and jeering?

    On another note, around this time last year astronomers unvieled a nebula they nicknamed “Red Square” — a nebula that looks like a jewel (ruby). Some religious people, like the one shown above, thought that this was a “sign” from God. Ridiculous.

  204. #204 Feynmaniac
    May 3, 2008

    @savedbyHIM # 202

    Or how about Poeser? (From poser and Poe, obviously)

  205. #205 Skeptigirl
    May 7, 2008

    The crowd was just a little less enthusiastic about the ‘stick man’ electron microscope version. Didn’t quite wow them like the diagram did.

    These same people see Jesus in tortillas, Mary in window glass, believe the Sun wiggled at Medjugorje, and think Jesus looks like the picture that someone painted of him over 1,000 years after he supposedly existed.

    It is indeed a sad comment on how evolved our species really is. But I’m optimistic. You can’t beat science with religion. Science has never been stopped, just delayed a bit.

  206. #206 Skeptigirl
    May 7, 2008

    Godtube? You have got to be kidding me. How did I miss that one? Anyway, I was perusing the sight when I came across video on why bananas are The Atheists Nightmare. Posted by: Chris

    The funny thing about that video besides the fact you can’t tell if it is a parody or for real they way they ‘handle’ that banana, is that bananas are the result of genetic engineering by humans ten thousand years ago give or take a millennium. God didn’t make bananas if you believe that stuff, people did when they took up experimenting with agriculture. Bananas are hybrids and the result of scientific experiments.

  207. #207 Sean
    May 7, 2008

    I don’t expect any of you to understand the things of God… I ‘do expect’ you to believe it is foolishness. I do expect that you feel “sorry” for us uneducated Christians.
    In 1 Corinthians Paul says (inspired by God);

    18 For to those who are perishing the message of the cross is foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is God’s power. 19 For it is written:I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the understanding of the experts. 20 Where is the philosopher? Where is the scholar? Where is the debater of this age? Hasn’t God made the world’s wisdom foolish?

    Until you come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through faith… you will not understand.
    All of the belittling and nasty name-calling will NOT affect our faith in the Living God!

    Romans 5:6-11

  208. #208 Snazzo7
    May 8, 2008

    Thank you, Sean. Now I don’t have to write the same thing. Most of the people on this blog making fun of Christians are totally missing the point – none of this was meant to be “proof” of Christianity or the Bible’s claims. The Laminin illustration is a nice “bonus” in nature to help us remember that “in Christ all things are held together”.

    But for those who reject Christ and His claims, they cannot possibly understand the things of God. My recommendation to those who do not claim to be followers of Christ: stay focused and answer the question of “who is Jesus”, and don’t get side tracked on all of this other stuff.

    You only have three possible choices to believe regarding Jesus Christ:
    1) He was a liar and a swindler, and nothing He said was true.
    2) He was a crazy lunatic, believing himself to be God and making all those claims.
    3) Everything He said was true, and He was and is Lord of the universe, God Himself in the flesh (i.e. not created), and is the only way to God.

    You cannot believe that Jesus was simply a nice teacher, good moral person. That doesn’t jive with any of the three choices above.

    Choose for yourself this day whom you will serve … as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.

  209. #209 Dennis
    May 8, 2008

    that’s not a swastika shape. That is four Sheppard hooks guarding your very existence, and giving you the capacity to guard your mind.

  210. #210 Brownian, OM
    May 8, 2008

    Sean and Snazzo7,

    No. It is you that clearly do not understand.

  211. #211 Kseniya
    May 8, 2008

    You only have three possible choices to believe regarding Jesus Christ:

    Wow, the Trilemma. Where’d you come up with that elegant bit of logic, Snazzo? Think of it yourself, didja?

    You cannot believe that Jesus was simply a nice teacher, good moral person. That doesn’t jive with any of the three choices above.

    That’s because there are more than three possibilities. You overlooked, among other possiblities, this:

  212. 4. He was an extraordinary, but mortal, man whose legend was enhanced beyond the point of credibility by those who came after him.

    This is far more likely than any of the allegedly “only possible” three. I realize that you reject this (and other) possibilities that might fail to support the preconceived conclusion upon which you base your so-called inquiry. And I suppose you pride yourself on your rationality?

  • #212 Schmeer
    May 8, 2008

    Kseniya,
    Personally I believe there were many people named Jesus around that time, but the particular one of interest to these clowns never existed. Let’s call this option #5.

  • #213 ennui
    May 8, 2008

    A new online poll! Who is/was Jeeebus?

    1) Liar
    2) Lunatic
    3) Lord
    4) Legend
    5) Loser
    6) Who cares? I am neither sheep nor slave.

  • #214 Kseniya
    May 8, 2008

    That is another possibility, yes, and informed opinions vary, but personally I think #4 is somewhat more likely. FWIW.

    The significance of the question, however – that such a question even exists – escapes most believers. How can we be so utterly certain about who and what he was, when we can’t even be utterly certain that he existed?

    I concede the possiblity that he never existed, just as I concede the possibility that he was the Son of God, as advertised. However, in the absence of extraordinary evidence, I see no reason to choose what is far and away the most extraordinary possibility, even if doing so would make me feel very special indeed.

  • #215 Etha Williams
    May 8, 2008

    @#214 Kseniya –

    The significance of the question, however – that such a question even exists – escapes most believers. How can we be so utterly certain about who and what he was, when we can’t even be utterly certain that he existed?

    What I can’t understand is why many believers seem to think that if they can prove that he existed, it will somehow prove that the rest of the NT story is true.

    However, in the absence of extraordinary evidence, I see no reason to choose what is far and away the most extraordinary possibility, even if doing so would make me feel very special indeed.

    Agreed.

    ((Cue Pascal’s Wager…))

  • #216 Kseniya
    May 8, 2008

    Yeah, Pascal necessarily follows from any rational decision to choose skepticism. ;-)

    File under: “But… but… but..!”

    Etha, have you ever come across The Five Gospels, which is the product of a group calling itself The Jesus Seminar? I’m not sure how seriously to take it, but it’s interesting.

  • #217 Kseniya
    May 8, 2008

    BTW, Snazzo, not to be pedantic, and I realize it’s amongst the very easiest typoes to make, but in the interest of clarity I should say that I assumed you meant “jibe” rather than “jive“. Just FYI.

  • #218 Etha Williams
    May 8, 2008

    @#216 Kseniya –

    Etha, have you ever come across The Five Gospels, which is the product of a group calling itself The Jesus Seminar? I’m not sure how seriously to take it, but it’s interesting.

    I hadn’t heard of it, but my school’s library has it — I’ll check it out tonight.

  • #219 Lindsay
    May 8, 2008

    I happened to come across this blog with all these comments regarding Laminin as a connection to Christ. What I was most shocked about was how much it offended all of you. If you truly believe that this preacher is idiotic for saying this then why does it bother you so much. Every comment on this site is so hateful and negative. I really believe that it comes from a deep depression and resentment to God that nonbelievers hate any thought about there being design and purpose to life. Because if there was a design and purpose to life than you couldn’t be your own god. I think that is what threatens all you scientists not that some guy made a false claim as you say he did.

  • #220 Ryan F Stello
    May 8, 2008

    Lindsay (#219) pondered,

    If you truly believe that this preacher is idiotic for saying this then why does it bother you so much.

    vs.

    I really believe that it comes from…//indeciferible rhetoric//…

    If you were really sincere about asking a question, why do you supply your answer?
    Could it that you just like the sound of your own written-voice?

  • #221 Snazzo7
    May 9, 2008

    Kseniya wrote: That’s because there are more than three possibilities. You overlooked, among other possiblities, this:

    4. He was an extraordinary, but mortal, man whose legend was enhanced beyond the point of credibility by those who came after him.

    ==> This supposed option 4 is the most obsurd and illogical. Please explain why and how so many people (who walked with Jesus and knew Him personally) would make up stuff and then stick by their story even to the point of death. Nah … uh uh … this is not a new or overlooked theory, it is just the least likely or believable. Try again.

  • #222 Brownian, OM
    May 9, 2008

    Please explain why and how so many people (who walked with Jesus and knew Him personally) would make up stuff and then stick by their story even to the point of death.

    Are you unaware of the existence of other religions, or are you just being willfully dense? Do you think Christians are the only people to have stuck to their thousand-year-old myths in the face of death?

    It should be a sin to be that ignorant of the world around you. Hell, they should revoke your driver’s license for being that self-absorbed.

  • #223 Ichthyic
    May 9, 2008

    Are you unaware of the existence of other religions, or are you just being willfully dense?

    again with the rhetorical questions?
    ;)

  • #224 Brownian, OM
    May 9, 2008

    I know, Ichthyic, I know.

    Then again, there’s an old trial lawyer adage that goes something like: Never ask a question you don’t already know the answer to.

    I’m not even going to get into the lack of evidence for all these people who ‘knew Jesus personally.’

    What a clod.

  • #225 Etha Williams
    May 9, 2008

    @#221 Snazzo7 –

    Please explain why and how so many people (who walked with Jesus and knew Him personally) would make up stuff and then stick by their story even to the point of death.

    Only the truly self-deluded are unable to comprehend the phenomenon of self-delusion.

  • #226 Ichthyic
    May 9, 2008

    Hey, I knew Jesus personally.

    nice guy.

    what, you didn’t mean the guy I knew from San Diego?

  • #227 Ichthyic
    May 9, 2008

    //Indecipherable Rhetoric//

    I’m going to make a bumper sticker out of that.

  • #228 Ichthyic
    May 9, 2008

    This supposed option 4 is the most obsurd and illogical.

    if “obsurd” isn’t a word, it really should be.

    like:

    obfuscatingly absurd.

    obsurd

    frag me, it’s a Sniglet.

  • #229 Etha Williams
    May 9, 2008

    @#226 Ichthyic –

    Hey, I knew Jesus personally.

    Well, I knew Him biblically.

  • #230 Ichthyic
    May 9, 2008

    Well, I knew Him biblically.

    I thought about it for a while.

    I really can’t come up with a witty rejoinder for that; everything else was just too obvious.

  • #231 Rey Fox
    May 9, 2008

    “1) He was a liar and a swindler, and nothing He said was true.
    2) He was a crazy lunatic, believing himself to be God and making all those claims.
    3) Everything He said was true, and He was and is Lord of the universe, God Himself in the flesh (i.e. not created), and is the only way to God.”

    Here’s my question: Why should we give any credence to Answer #3? It’s the least likely one! I mean, we all know that liars exist. We all know that lunatics exist. We don’t have to make any assumptions to choose the first two answers. But for #3, we have to assume that there is some big invisible god being, and that he came down to Earth in the form of a human being, and that his self-sacrifice would somehow absolve everyone else of sacrificing animals. Maybe you just don’t see how absurd that all sounds to someone on the outside.

    This argument must be for people who are too afraid to entertain the possibility that the Jesus person was a liar or a lunatic (or #4, a legend, another thing that we know exists).

  • #232 Kseniya
    May 9, 2008

    Ok, so we have this story:

    “A child is born of a virgin; the child is allegedly the son of god; he garners a following and performs miracles; he is killed by the local powers-that-be; three days later he rises up from the dead and ascends into heaven to rule at his father’s side for eternity.”

    [No, scratch that, 300 years after his death, some guys got together and somehow decide to agree that he and his father are actually the same being, but whatever.]

    How is that story less absurd , and more logical, than this:

    “Two thousand years ago, a child conceived in the normal way is born of a perfectly normal woman in the normal way grows up to be a rebellious but visionary leader of a small and very-nearly-but-not-quite-completely-loyal cult; he has some pretty interesting things to say, and the powers that be get nervous and have him executed; his followers try to carry the message; the first written record of his life and times is not composed until nearly forty years after his death, and is a transcription of what has become a necessarily mutable and expediently plastic oral tradition; this process repeats over a period of two or three hundred years later, until the religion that has grown up around this individual is so critically fractured, some descendants of his followers decide that it’s time to get together and unify the many disparate and conflicting threads of the story into The Greatest Story Ever Told, as a way of defining and stabilizing the religion and attracting more converts.”

    As Rey succinctly points out, we already have abundant evidence that Liars, Lunatics, and Legends exist – in abundance. What outrageous leap of Logic, then, yields the conclusion that the one other possibility – Lord, the one for which there is no evidence and no precedent, before or since – is the clear and obvious choice?

    Forgive me if I remain skeptical.

  • #233 Ichthyic
    May 9, 2008

    How is that story less absurd , and more logical, than this:

    It’s not.

    in fact the second thing you quoted is a perfect example of an …

    obsurdity.

    see? it’s a great word, and we Snazzy to thank for it!

    thanks, Snazzy!

  • #234 Ichthyic
    May 9, 2008

    er, we HAVE Snazzy to thank for it.

    me no speakem goodly late.

  • #235 Etha Williams
    May 9, 2008

    @#232 Kseniya –

    Forgive me if I remain skeptical.

    Some christians might forgive that, but their god won’t.

    He’ll throw your laminin-filled body into a firy pit of torment for remaining skeptical. That’s divine agape for you!

  • #236 Ichthyic
    May 9, 2008

    slightly OT, but having been a DnD geek for many years, I got into this DnD pun strip a few years back, and thought the latest strip was rather appropriate:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html

    Tribe once worshiped great mighty bull, but it vanished long ago. Think it happen around time tribe discover crate washed up on shore of hamburger buns…

  • #237 Kseniya
    May 9, 2008

    “Dere’s sumthin’ bigger dan PHIL!”

  • #238 Snazzo7
    May 9, 2008

    Well, its been fun and even amusing. You guys have great humor, and I applaud you for that.

    As for me, I suppose I should be more careful than to type quick responses without first checking my spelling and grammer (something I usually am very careful about).

    And I also suppose I need to be more specific with credible evidences regarding the few arguments I’ve attempted to make. You guys are too sharp (and have more time than I do to fully engage on this subject).

    But may I please indulge you one more time … IF YOU ARE TRULY SERIOUS ABOUT INVESTIGATING THESE CLAIMS. Find the small (but powerful) book written by Josh McDowell titled “More than a Carpenter”. It will answer your questions and skepticism (sp?) with great skill.

    Ciao.

  • #239 Ryan F Stello
    May 9, 2008

    Ichthyic (#227) said,

    //Indecipherable Rhetoric//…
    I’m going to make a bumper sticker out of that.

    Drat! One more thing I didn’t copyright…

  • #240 Depressedarodo
    May 16, 2008

    Talk about depressing! Reading these comments has been depressing!

    I think the most convincing argument for a creator is not the shape of a protein, but the reaction of people to the name of Jesus. If Christianity was “superstition”, then why does it elicit such a response? Why does it require so much energy to “debunk”? Please take a step back, and take a deep breath, and ask yourself, “Is this life on Earth really all there is to my existence?”

    The Bible that you are insulting has predicted your reaction to His name.

    Jesus will return. I pray that you will come to know Him before then.

  • #241 Andrew
    May 29, 2008

    you are all dumb but I will pray for you

  • #242 Brownian, OM
    May 29, 2008

    Talk about depressing! Reading these comments has been depressing!

    You must be reading the Xian comments. So painful….

    I think the most convincing argument for a creator is not the shape of a protein, but the reaction of people to the name of Jesus.

    Really? Then why aren’t you a Muslim? You should hear the Xians in the US freak the fuck out when they hear “All?hu Akbar.” Michelle Malkin had a break down when Rachael Ray wore a scarf that reminded her of a kafiyeh. Xianity has a long history of suppressing the very mention of other religions. Is that evidence of their truth for you?

    If Christianity was “superstition”, then why does it elicit such a response? Why does it require so much energy to “debunk”?

    It doesn’t. Anytime you guys wanna pull your superstition out of education and politics, we’ll be happy to ignore you.

    Please take a step back, and take a deep breath, and ask yourself, “Is this life on Earth really all there is to my existence?”

    Hmm, never thought of that. Hallelujah, praise Brahma.

    The Bible that you are insulting has predicted your reaction to His name.

    Wow. Cult predicts non-members won’t like it. Now there’s a revelation. The Church of Scientology keeps lawyers on staff ready to fight its critics at the drop of a hat. I’ll let ‘em know you’ll be converting soon.

    Jesus will return.

    He said he was coming back before all who knew him in life were dead. By all accounts, he’s at least 1950 years late. Perhaps you should actually read your bible rather than thumping it.

    I pray that you will come to know Him before then.

    I’d rather you did something constructive with your time. Aren’t there poor you could be clothing and feeding? Or were those aspects of Jesus’ teachings metaphorical?

  • #243 Brownian, OM
    May 29, 2008

    you are all dumb but I will pray for you

    You’re a fucking moron, but I’ll do my best to make sure your children have enough access to decent educational standards that they’ll see right through your believer’s bullshit.

  • #244 Ryan F Stello
    May 30, 2008

    Talk about depressing! Reading these comments has been depressing!

    You’re easily depressed. Maybe you should talk to God more?

  • #245 Skeptigirl
    June 8, 2008

    I said something about this in another blog reply but for those not reading every thread, …

    At a recent talk that I went to at the Discovery Institute, the speaker brought this up including slides even though the talk was about ID being bad theology.

    The audience wasn’t too impressed by the actual images but when they saw the diagram, the crowd oohed and awed, literally.

    I believe this is yet another research avenue the DI folks expect to be fruitful. Move over Bible Code, God has more secret messages in store for us. [chuckle, chuckle]

  • #246 turdburger
    June 15, 2008

    I accept your swastika as a message to us.

  • #247 Walton
    June 15, 2008

    Is this video for real? This kind of pretentious nonsense is even more cringe-inducing to me (as a believer) than it is to any of you; it’s simply embarrassing, to those of us theists who try to be rational, that some people actually think like this.

  • #248 Geebus Rulezeros
    June 17, 2008

    Laminin IS Jesus, whatever you say… I don’t even what to know your name. Laminin is what holds us together, and his sidekick PHOSPHOLIPID, the Easter Bunny, is what holds together each and every cell. There’s nothing more to it.

  • #249 Geebus Rulezeros
    June 17, 2008

    As I’m researching all this the truth becomes more and more evident. The 3D model of the lipid resembles an actual bunny. The bend in one of the fatty acids is a characteristic bend in any symbol of a bunny. So there you have it, a circle, a stick, and a bent stick…

  • #250 Jimmbo
    July 2, 2008

    It actually looks more like the staff of Hermes from Greek mythlogy.

    http://radicalruss.com/2008/05/laminin-gods-cross-shaped-glue/

  • #251 arvtpei
    July 17, 2008

    There are a lot of comments made by some very angry people on this post. And if you ask me, their comments don’t sound extremely intelligent. Regardless of whether the laminin looks like a cross or not, it is true that Jesus holds us together and that God planned for the Jesus to die upon it, for each one of you who are making fun of your creator. I doubt any of you would do the same, since the tone of several of your remarks have suggested “crucifying Christians.” That is similar to killing a highway department flagger because they cared to warn you that there was a danger on the road ahead.
    I am a Christian and I agree that just because the protein has a cross like shape doesn’t mean it is a pointer to Christ, but that does not invalidate the truth. I myself did not watch the video, but allow me to point out some evidences.
    For those of you who may not be aware, the Old Testament pointed to the Messiah or Christ from the beginning to the end. The New Testament reveals Him to us as the person Jesus.
    Even you must admit, that if there is a God powerful enought to have created all of the universe and everything in it by speaking, then He must also be able to see the future. Further the Bible states that Jesus was present at the creation in John 1:1 and in Genesis itself when it states “let us make man in our image.” It also states that in Him all things consist, implying that creation was not simply a one time event, but that He is still involved in the creation of all new life and in the sustaining of the creation itself.
    He is the one who created the “laws” of nature. I have no doubt that many will make fun of this and will ridicule Jesus, but know this, one day the one you ridicule will be either your savior or your judge!

  • #252 Michaelcaba
    July 18, 2008

    Honesty requires that at least one theist say plainly: the atheists are totally correct about this silly laminin craze, hands down. This is pure foolishness, and we theists look like idiots.

  • #253 radman5252
    August 24, 2008

    So much hate speech here.I would lay odds that most of these people claim to be “tolerant”May the spirit of christ be with you all. You need it.

  • #254 George T. Logan
    September 1, 2008

    Dear Dr. Myers:

    Yes you are probably right, sometimes Christians like myself get overly excited about some little thing that we could miss the big picture, but we are not alone in this. Although part of my Master’s thesis, proteins do not float my boat. Understanding that I am wonderfully and fearfully made and that I can have a relationship with my creator does that and more. Do not look down upon those who might not have your background and education. No true follower of Jesus Christ would look down upon you. We would just ask that Christ’s love, mercy and grace touch your life.

    There are many “scientists” as learned as yourself that embrace the teaching of Jesus and follow him. They span the centuries. Do you suppose that they are all lunatics and dellusional? Just plain simpletons?

    I hope you have found something of value from all these 254 posts. Wishing you the best for your life and carreer.

    Very truly yours,

    George T. Logan

  • #255 Emily
    October 8, 2008

    Mr. Myers, I appreciate your candidness and putting the Laminin video on your blog for all to see. I am a Christian and as far as I got in biology was taking Advanced Biology in high school. I do know however, that this is a real biological structure and that it is shaped like a cross or as you said above, “a mere two slashes, one across the other.” Let us just suppose that there is God and that because He is God He is fully capable of configuring Laminin to look like a cross, and let us just say that He did this along with other signs and wonders throughout creation purposefully, in order to show the world that He is the Creator of all things. What if he created this here Laminin to get your attention because He loves you? You may not agree with what it symbolizes for some people but it did get your attention. Now that I have your attention, I would like to ask you a thought provoking question or two. What if the Bible is a truly divine book and that if you test it to other holy books it stands its ground while the others don’t even stand a chance? What if it is mathematically impossible to say that 2,000 out of 2,500 Biblical prophecies have come to pass by sheer coincidence? Check out http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/prophecy.shtml.
    What if the Bible is historically and archaeologically sound? Check out: http://www.carm.org/sermons/2Tim_3_14-17.htm
    In light of the accuracy of the Bible and its prophecies, what if you are fulfilling the prophecy in the New Testament of being a “scoffer,” when it says in 2 Peter 3:3-7,” scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, ‘Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.’ For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.’ What if the Lord is being patient in preserving your life and the lives of others so that you will all be saved from the punishment of sin? As the Bible says, in 2 Peter 3:8-9, “do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” What if your belief that there is no Hell is misguided, and that is no different than a thief refusing to believe in the existence of jail? What if you secretly have a “backup plan” and in the event the God of the Bible turns out to be real and there is a day of judgement and a Hell, you think He will have to forgive you because you are a “good person’? Take the Good Person Test here: http://www.livingwaters.com/good/. What if your “backup plan” fails and you are in a worse predicament than a person who jumps out of plane with a hole in their parachute, because you will not only die but plunge into Hell as well. What if you still have a chance to change your mind and “Put-on” the Lord Jesus Christ before you take the plunge into eternity? Everyday 150,000 people die, where will you spend eternity? What if Jesus is trying to get your attention again through this post because he truly cares about you?

  • #256 Emily Vasile
    October 8, 2008

    Mr. Myers, I appreciate your candidness and putting the Laminin video on your blog for all to see. I am a Christian and as far as I got in biology was taking Advanced Biology in high school. I do know however, that this is a real biological structure and that it is shaped like a cross or as you said above, “a mere two slashes, one across the other.” Let us just suppose that there is God and that because He is God He is fully capable of configuring Laminin to look like a cross, and let us just say that He did this along with other signs and wonders throughout creation purposefully, in order to show the world that He is the Creator of all things. What if he created this here Laminin to get your attention because He loves you? You may not agree with what it symbolizes for some people but it did get your attention. Now that I have your attention, I would like to ask you a thought provoking question or two. What if the Bible is a truly divine book and that if you test it to other holy books it stands its ground while the others don’t even stand a chance? What if it is mathematically impossible to say that 2,000 out of 2,500 Biblical prophecies have come to pass by sheer coincidence? Check out http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/prophecy.shtml.
    What if the Bible is historically and archaeologically sound? Check out: http://www.carm.org/sermons/2Tim_3_14-17.htm
    In light of the accuracy of the Bible and its prophecies, what if you are fulfilling the prophecy in the New Testament of being a “scoffer,” when it says in 2 Peter 3:3-7,” scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, ‘Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.’ For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.’ What if the Lord is being patient in preserving your life and the lives of others so that you will all be saved from the punishment of sin? As the Bible says, in 2 Peter 3:8-9, “do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” What if your belief that there is no Hell is misguided, and that is no different than a thief refusing to believe in the existence of jail? What if you secretly have a “backup plan” and in the event the God of the Bible turns out to be real and there is a day of judgement and a Hell, you think He will have to forgive you because you are a “good person’? Take the Good Person Test here: http://www.livingwaters.com/good/. What if your “backup plan” fails and you are in a worse predicament than a person who jumps out of plane with a hole in their parachute, because you will not only die but plunge into Hell as well. What if you still have a chance to change your mind and “Put-on” the Lord Jesus Christ before you take the plunge into eternity? Everyday 150,000 people die, where will you spend eternity? What if Jesus is trying to get your attention again through this post because he truly cares about you?

  • #257 Janine ID AKA The Lone Drinker
    October 8, 2008

    Emily Vasile, your concern is noted and being given all of the consideration it deserves.

  • I’m not sure subtlety is going to work Janine.

    Emily, you’re a raving wingnut. Seek help.

  • #259 Emily Vasile
    October 8, 2008

    Sorry, that I took up so much space and posted twice earlier it was not intentional. This link about Biblical prophecies did not work before so here it is again: http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/prophecy.shtml

  • After looking at your link Emily I’m more convinced than ever you are a raving wingnut and should seek education and professional help.

    That is one of the worst excuses for evidence of fulfilled prophecy I’ve seen

    Tell me, where did the author come up with the numbers representing the chance of fulfillment?

  • #261 Nerd of Redhead
    October 8, 2008

    Emily, first prove that your god exists. Some physical proof that can be confirmed by scientists, magicians, and professional debunkers as being of divine origin. Otherwise, no god = no holy bible = no prophesy/theology.

    Without god, what you were trying to post is nonsense.

  • #262 Janine ID AKA The Lone Drinker
    October 8, 2008

    Emily, you do realize that the book that is called The Bible was written by scores of people over the centuries and was edited and reedited by different groups for different reasons. There is not one primary source to be had when you are dealing with that book. Predictions means nothing when nothing can be verified.

    Oh, and thank you for playing the Hell trump card. WHAT OF YOUR IMMORTAL SOUL? WHAT IF YOU ARE IN ETERNAL PAIN? Those idle threads mean nothing when it has no meaning to the person you are trying to convince.

  • Yes Emily, what if you are wrong about Allah?

  • #264 Iain Walker
    October 8, 2008

    arvtpei (#251):

    if there is a God powerful enought [sic] to have created all of the universe and everything in it by speaking, then He must also be able to see the future.

    Nope, doesn’t follow. The one ability does not imply the other.

    I have no doubt that many will make fun of this and will ridicule Jesus, but know this, one day the one you ridicule will be either your savior or your judge!

    Well, I for one hope that at that time, I will still retain the intellectual and moral integrity to ridicule him then, too.

  • #265 Steve_C
    October 8, 2008

    Kooky. Evangelicals are always so corny and unimpressive.

  • #266 Emily Vasile
    October 8, 2008

    Janine and Rev.,

    This link below is more about the accuracy of the Bible manuscripts, Check out this site:
    http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/bible-manuscripts.htm

    In the Bible there are only a few insignificant textual errors, not pertaining to doctrine or changing the meaning of the text. Pretty amazing for a religious book that doesn’t claim to be handwritten by God, but rather is inspired by Him and written down by man. Also keep in mind that the Bible is scientifically, historically, and archeologically accurate.

    “Compared with other ancient writings, the Bible has more manuscript evidence to support it than any ten pieces of classical literature combined.”
    http://www.jesussite.com/blog/2008/08/no-other-book-as-unique-as-the-bible/

    If you compare the Bible to other religious books such as the Koran and The Book of Mormon, which claim to be perfect books without error, because their prophets supposedly copied them from golden texts sent from the heaven, they don’t even compare in accuracy.

    Here are just a two example of their errors:

    The Koran has faulty scientific assumptions, and here are just a few reasons, Rev., that I believe Allah doesn’t exist, if he is God he shouldn’t make such “BIG” mistakes in his book:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry8Ng3MbDD4

    The Book of Mormon has no archaeological evidence to support it, even the Smithsonian Institute has a letter addressing the books problem:

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon17.html

  • #267 Nerd of Redhead
    October 8, 2008

    Emily you naughty girl. You failed to provide any proof for god, and just pretended that it was given. This is science blog so you have to obey the rules of science. Until you prove the initial postulate, which is god exists, you can’t use anything derived from that postulate.

    Can you show the physical evidence that god exists as I asked above? If not, go home.

  • #268 Emily Vasile
    October 8, 2008

    Nerd,

    You, spoke to soon… I did take you up on your challenge and I’ll prove that a Creator/God exists:

    Lets take a little scenario:

    Say you go to the Louvre in Paris and your friend says to you that she believes that some of the old paintings there have no painter, what would you think?

    I’m sure you would think she was smoking something! You ask her how she could believe such a crazy idea, and she says that because some of the paintings were painted so long ago and the supposed painters aren’t alive today she believes that it may be possible there are no painters and that perhaps over millions of years they grew a canvas and some paint started swirling around on them and then a few thousand years later a frame worked its way around the canvas to have the complex masterpieces we have today. You look at her in bewilderment and just shake your head, no matter how much logic you use and evidence you have she still will not change her belief. She starts yelling at you and calling you all kinds of names because she disagrees with you, but being you care about her you just hope that she comes around and sees reality.

    Well, my friend. If you think that the scenario is crazy, then how do you think a Christian feels when people acknowledge that a painting has to have a painter, that a building has to have a builder and so on and so on. But, when they see a beautiful wild flower, sunset rainbow or a shooting star it evolved from nothing. I don’t think there is a way to get past seeing a Creator unless you want to throw all logic out the window and have faith in the religion of Darwinism.

    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/380760/does_god_exist_the_eye/

    Just as an F.Y.I, Darwin even doubted natural selection when it came to the eye:

    “To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree.Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated; but I may remark that several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound. Charles Darwin, Chapter 6 in Origin of the Species. http://www.64prn.com/en/node/808

    (Note he is having trouble “reasoning” how the process of natural selection could have created the eye in all of its complexities.)

    No matter how much time a bunch of car parts sits in a garage they aren’t going to turn into a Mercedes Benz, unless there is a mechanic working behind the scenes.

    If these analogies are not evidence for a Creator than I don’t know what is?

  • #269 Nerd of Redhed
    October 8, 2008

    Emily, you fail big time. What is required is true physical evidence. Like an eternally burning bush found 50 ft down in an ocean. Something that is physical, and cannot be explained by natural laws.

    So, where is your proof? If you don’t have any, don’t come back.

  • #270 Owlmirror
    October 8, 2008

    What if the Bible is historically and archaeologically sound?

    It is not.

      Let the Stones Speak :Archaeology and the Old Testament
    http://ebonmusings.org/atheism/otarch.html

  • #271 Owlmirror
    October 8, 2008

    Citing from the above link:

    In this respect, archaeology is a double-edged sword. If it can prove the Bible, it can also disprove it, and once Christians have brought it up in support of their doctrines, they cannot then discard it as soon as its conclusions become inconvenient to them. And in recent decades, as more evidence emerges, it has turned increasingly against them. A more complete picture of the history of ancient Israel has surfaced, one that brings out in sharp relief which parts of the Old Testament are historical and which parts are not.

  • #272 Rey Fox
    October 8, 2008

    I wonder why the crazies keep trickling in to this thread? Is it linked on some apologetic site somewhere?

  • #273 Owlmirror
    October 8, 2008

    Well, my friend. If you think that the scenario is crazy, then how do you think a Christian feels when people acknowledge that a painting has to have a painter, that a building has to have a builder and so on and so on. But, when they see a beautiful wild flower, sunset rainbow or a shooting star it evolved from nothing. I don’t think there is a way to get past seeing a Creator unless you want to throw all logic out the window and have faith in the religion of Darwinism.

    No, it is Christianity that throws out logic.

    All examples of human artifacts are the result of demonstrable human actions, and only result from human actions. If there were natural processes that could create a painting exactly as humans do, or cause a building to come into existence exactly as humans do, it would mean that we would not be able to be certain that a painting or a building was the result of human activity.

    On the other hand, “shooting stars” are explainable without needing human activity, or indeed, any intelligence at all. Rainbows are beautiful — but they are also explainable as the interaction between sunlight and water droplets, again not requiring any human activity.

    And of course, flowers result from plants. Some plants have had human activity involved with them, in that they were bred from earlier forms. Yet plants in general can be explained without requiring any intelligent activity: the theory of natural selection is exactly that explanation, although of course, the theory has been modified by a better understanding of inheritance and genetics.

    So unless you can actually show that plants could not exist without intelligent activity, that theory is what stands, on the basis of existing evidence.

    Just as an F.Y.I, Darwin even doubted natural selection when it came to the eye:

    This is called “quote mining”. It is dishonest. It is a form of bearing false witness, which is a sin according to your own bible. Stop doing it.

    http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB301.html

    The source making the claim usually quotes Darwin saying that the evolution of the eye seems “absurd in the highest degree”. However, Darwin follows that statement with a three-and-a-half-page proposal of intermediate stages through which eyes might have evolved via gradual steps (Darwin 1872).

    • photosensitive cell
    • aggregates of pigment cells without a nerve
    • an optic nerve surrounded by pigment cells and covered by translucent skin
    • pigment cells forming a small depression
    • pigment cells forming a deeper depression
    • the skin over the depression taking a lens shape
    • muscles allowing the lens to adjust

    All of these steps are known to be viable because all exist in animals
    living today. The increments between these steps are slight and may be
    broken down into even smaller increments. Natural selection should,
    under many circumstances, favor the increments. Since eyes do not
    fossilize well, we do not know that the development of the eye followed
    exactly that path, but we certainly cannot claim that no path exists.

    Of course it’s more complicated than that. But biology is indeed complicated.

    No matter how much time a bunch of car parts sits in a garage they aren’t going to turn into a Mercedes Benz, unless there is a mechanic working behind the scenes.

    If these analogies are not evidence for a Creator than I don’t know what is?

    The above analogy is simply false. Biology is not a bunch of car parts.

    False analogies are not evidence for anything at all.

  • #274 Steve_C
    October 8, 2008

    Fucking hell. Do fuck off Emily.

    You have NOTHING. You don’t understand science and apparently logic.

    “God Did It” is not an answer to anything.

  • #275 Dennis N
    October 8, 2008

    arvtpei #251

    For those of you who may not be aware, the Old Testament pointed to the Messiah or Christ from the beginning to the end. The New Testament reveals Him to us as the person Jesus.

    The Philosopher’s Stone pointed to the coming of Voldemort, while Chamber of Secrets reveals him to us as Tom Riddle. Is it that amazing that a fiction book can be fulfill its own promises within its pages?

  • #276 Owlmirror
    October 8, 2008

    In the Bible there are only a few insignificant textual errors, not pertaining to doctrine or changing the meaning of the text.

    Wrong. It’s much, much worse than that.

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

  • #277 Nick Gotts
    October 8, 2008

    Steve_C@274,

    I dunno, after the recent invasions of Randroids, racists, and baked-goods fetishists, I find a straightforward creobot like Emily relatively inoffensive.

  • #278 Steve_C
    October 8, 2008

    hehe… this is true at least she’s just whacky and fairly harmless.

    But she’ll vote for McCain.

    It’s the posting of link to whackbot sites, like that’s evidence of something, that makes me nutso. And the whole clueless, painter/sculptor/engineer argument is just the goofiest ignorant dumbass reasoning for gods.

    Why the christian god? Why not the galactic octopus?

  • #279 phantomreader42
    October 8, 2008

    Emily, your argument by analogy, like all of creationism, is a dismal failure. Since it’s obvious you’re pretty dense, I’ll make this next sentence stand out as much as possible:

    PAINTINGS DO NOT REPRODUCE!

    No, really, paintings really don’t get together in the middle of the night in the museum when the night watchman isn’t looking and give birth to little baby paintings. Paintings don’t reproduce. Nor do watches, or airplanes, or any of the other clearly man-made objects that creationists are so fond of using for these bullshit analogies. An analogy only works if the things compared are ANALOGOUS. And manufactured objects are DIFFERENT from living things, because manufactured objects do not reproduce. If they did, there’d be no need to manufacture them. The watchmaker argument is bullshit, and it always has been bullshit, and the only way it could be anything other than bullshit is if watches reproduced. Of course, if that were the case, the argument would cease to make any sense at all even to the hopelessly brainwashed.

    You really don’t know what you’re talking about, which is why you have to resort to Pascal’s wager. That too is utter bullshit. If god is so stupid that he cannot tell the difference between honest belief and belief feigned out of fear, then he is obviously not worth worshipping. If god is so evil that he would torture a person for all eternity simply for not believing in him without the slightest speck of evidence, he is obviously not worthy of worship. And none of this idiotic self-deception and cost-benefit analysis has anything at all to do with determining whether or not any god actually exists. Pascal’s Wager is nothing more than a scare tactic, and an admission that your faith is based on fear and delusion. The facts are against you. Even you know this, but you are too terrified to face the truth.

    And I can’t end this post before addressing this idiocy you started with:
    Emily the creationist nutcase @ #256:

    Let us just suppose that there is God and that because He is God He is fully capable of configuring Laminin to look like a cross, and let us just say that He did this along with other signs and wonders throughout creation purposefully, in order to show the world that He is the Creator of all things. What if he created this here Laminin to get your attention because He loves you?

    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? WHY would this supposedly all-powerful, all knowing god NEED to express his supposed “love” by fiddling with the shape of a protein? This is idiotic!

    My girlfriend loves me. She lives some distance away, and finds it difficult to travel, but she talks to me on that newfangled “telephone” gadget almost every day. Since the telephone is not mentioned in your precious bible, you may not know what one is, but for these purposes you simply need to know that it is a device that transmits sound across long distances, and it does not reproduce. She contacts me through a system called the “Internet”, which I’m sure you won’t be able to understand no matter how many times I explain it. She is also capable of using a service known as “mail” to send me actual, physical objects. She even flew down to see me in person just a few months ago. It took us both quite a bit of work, but we were able to express our love in person. We stood in the same room, and actually, physically touched each other. Futher details are none of your damn business. This woman is not by any means wealthy or well-connected. She has no magical powers. She does not even own a car. But she was able to transport herself over a thousand miles to be with the one she loves, using technology invented by human beings. No god was involved.

    Why is your imaginary god utterly incapable of doing any of these things? Your god is supposedly all-powerful, all-knowing, and present always everywhere in the universe. If this god of yours loves us, why would he be limited to expressing that love in such a silly way as by making a vaguely cross-shaped protein? Why couldn’t he just talk to us, like my girlfriend does on a regular basis? It’s not like it’d be difficult for this supposedly all-powerful being. If he’s really everywhere, it would be trivial for him to manifest himself at my location (where he supposedly already is) in some easily perceivable way. It would be astonishingly easy for him to leave me a clear, readable message by any number of means. I, a mere mortal, could think of dozens off the top of my head. And if this god of yours is really all-knowing, then he would be much better at coming up with a means of communication than little old me. Why has he never done so? The answer is simple. It’s because your god doesn’t exist. Your delusion isn’t real.

  • #280 Emily Vasile
    October 8, 2008

    I appreciate some of the dialogue but not the insults, but I don’t expect better being you guys have no God to answer to, what the Hell, right? Cause Hell doesn’t exist anyway!

    Anyway, to address a few of you, the courteous first:

    There is definitely proof of the Bibles historical accuracy and archeological accuracy it would be a misrepresentation to say that there is non, I was using that to show how compared to The Book of Mormon which claims to be divine the Bible comes out with a clean record, not a corrupted one.http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon17.html If the Smithsonian
    came out and said that their is no archaeological evidence to support the Bible then I wouldn’t believe in it, but because the evidence found supports the Bible it gives the Bible validity.

    I understand where you are coming from Owlmirror, but really consider how if nature is mindless, how can it perceive and thus create what we see as beauty. Just as a painter perceives and creates beauty, there has to be a mind behind it and you all must be kidding yourselves if you can’t see how the natural world is so complex that it can just run by itself and keep building and creating mind-boggling designs. A design has to have a designer. It just doesn’t work any other way. The nature that we see around us reflects a higher mind a greater designer, that is why we copy designs in nature. My father worked with a woman who was studying the fiber-optic sensor capabilites in nature such as in the seas sponge, which are highly superior to any man made fiber-optic sensors. The airforce has copied the design of birds, hence the name Falcon for one type of fighter jet. We as humans are created in the image of our Creator, hence we love to design, learn, and copy after the master designer. There are also scientific evidences for the Bible: http://www.carm.org/bible/ms_science.htm, that man did not yet know about when it was written and recorded in the Bible.

    The difference between the Harry Potter series fictional prophecies being fulfilled is like comparing fish to monkeys. There is little comparison. The Bible is written by so many different authors over so much time, that there is no way for the prophecies to be fulfilled without a divine plan, someone Divine who can see the beginning and the end. Read Isaiah 53, you can’t just “fit” a Messiah into 700 years later, He would have to be divinely placed in time, in the right place, no room for coincidence there. Keep in mind there are 2,000 prophecies that have been fulfilled, out of 2,500. Here are is a bit size chunk of 100: http://www.100prophecies.org/.

    As far as textual errors go, I skimmed through about half of those and it depends on the way you look at them. If you take a look again and be honest with yourself some of those are different accounts of different people, you have to remember that a lot of the Bible accounts are from eyewitnesses that have different perspectives or have different reasons for emphasizing certain people, and Jesus healed so many people, who’s to say people each person had a different reason for their blindness or deafness.
    Check out CARM, which answers a lot of skeptics questions, even a lot of those were listed: http://www.carm.org/

    I also was not “quote-mining” I was fair and listed the entire quote not the half-of it as had been done by others in the past, I gave enough info to show, that he was trying to figure it out, but even if I listed the three pages, which would take up so much space, I listed the “meat” of what he was saying, which even with your quote,” However, Darwin follows that statement with a three-and-a-half-page proposal of intermediate stages through which eyes might have evolved via gradual steps (Darwin 1872).” That fact that he had to make a “proposal of what “might have evolved” along with his quote that “it is absurd in the highest” degree, shows there are not a lot of facts and a lot of it is just a speculative hypothesis.

  • #281 Kel
    October 8, 2008

    There is definitely proof of the Bibles historical accuracy and archeological accuracy

    Here’s a challenge, how how ANYTHING in the first 5 chapters of the old testament is historically or archaeologically accurate.

    That fact that he had to make a “proposal of what “might have evolved” along with his quote that “it is absurd in the highest” degree, shows there are not a lot of facts and a lot of it is just a speculative hypothesis.

    You know how science works by any chance? It’s a cumulation of knowledge i.e. people keep researching. Darwin came up with the idea of how evolution works, but it is not gospel. He got a few things wrong, but considering his theory has stood 150 years at a time when scientific knowledge is booming is testament to the quality of his work.

    In regard to the eye, scientists have solved the problem of how it evolved decades ago. It turns out that Darwin’s speculations were right, and we can craft an eye using simply intermediate stages. Hell, we even see those intermediate stages in nature. The funny thing about the eye is that it’s an example of modifying what is there. A designer should have been able to make perfect eyes from scratch, yet the flaws in our eyes can only be explained if the designer was either an incompetent retard or it is modification of “lesser” eyes.

    If you want to play with the big boys Emily, you need to show some rudimentary knowledge. You have no clue how science works or the process of evolution, I suggest you do some reading on it from places that are not creationist websites because those were also written by people who have no clue. It’s quite sad that creatards have this overblown sense of confidence to the point where they think they can tell scientists that they are wrong despite having no real scientific training.

  • #282 Emily Vasile
    October 8, 2008

    See the reason you have a girlfriend, is because God loves you and He said back in Genesis, that it is not good for man to be alone because he needed a helpmate. What better expression of love is that? He gave you a tangible woman to hold and to love. But, he also has certain standards, if you really love your girlfriend and want to show her the greatest expression of love, it is through the commitment of the marriage union, which God also created. See the message of the Bible gets at the heart, God wants to turn our hearts of “stone” into hearts of “flesh” through his Son’s Jesus’ death on the cross he conquered everything that was evil that destroys people and relationships which is called sin. He took your sin and my sin and nailed it to the cross with his blood and he died and rose again so we could have eternal life. See without Jesus people don’t know how to love. I see the anger and hatred in this chatroom, when all life is really about is coming to the realization that we are all broken inside and we all need repair. We need a Savior who can show us the way of love, how to love Him with our whole heart, mind, soul and strength, and how to love our neighbor as ourselves. The reason the world is such a mess and people are so angry and broken is because they need Jesus, they need the mind and heart of Christ and then someday He will make all things new, in the new, heaven and earth he will create. You can call it the greatest true fairy-tale ever told. Or you all can remain angry and bitter at the Creator who gave you life and holds every breath in your hand, he has numbered your days and has great plans in store if you repent of your sins and turn to him. Hell, is a place of eternal punishment, not as a scare tactic, but it is a reality, just like a murderer or a rapist or a thief if caught and tried go to jail and pay the penalty for their crime. So Jesus will judge for every idle, thought, and action if we are not covered in his blood. He gives the free gift of salvation to all, which is freedom from the bondage of sin and and He gives eternal life. He doesn’t want anyone to go to Hell, but he gave us free will, none of us our puppets we all have a choice, the choice is ours. God has to purge evil, just like a just judge has to sentence the criminal. We have all murdered in our hearts by hating others, including myself, we all deserve Hell because of it, but no one has to go there. Take the good person test and you will see why sin deserves punishment, and how you can be set free: http://www.livingwaters.com/good/

  • #283 thalarctos
    October 8, 2008

    The difference between the Harry Potter series fictional prophecies being fulfilled is like comparing fish to monkeys. There is little comparison.

    Actually, as vertebrates, fish and monkeys are much more similar than different, and there is a lot of useful and worthwhile comparison to be made. We have only scratched the surface.

    It’s just that the differences are highly visible (e.g., fur vs. scales), while the similarities are behind the scenes and subtle (e.g., adaptations of the third ventricle of the brain).

    As a visual primate, you naturally cued into the differences you can see and ascribed them proportionately more importance than the similarities you don’t see, but that is a highly misleading approach.

  • #284 Nerd of Redhead
    October 8, 2008

    Emily, still no physical proof for your alleged god? How are we to tell if you are a truthteller from a conwoman? Without any proof, we have to assume the latter. You to either put up some good, solid physical evidence or shut up. Otherwise, you will be mocked and deride, as any conwoman should be.
    Time to grow up. Everybody doesn’t have to believe your fair tales.

  • #285 Steve_C
    October 8, 2008

    Good job Nick!!!

    See what encouraging the little godbot did.

    Yay! I get laid because of Jesus!!!! Thanks god!

  • #286 Owlmirror
    October 8, 2008

    I don’t expect better being you guys have no God to answer to, what the Hell, right?

    Mm. No, there is no God to answer to. Morality, and courtesy, is only meaningful as the interaction between real human beings.

    There is definitely proof of the Bibles historical accuracy and archeological accuracy

    Sorry, no there is not.

    If the Smithsonian came out and said that their is no archaeological evidence to support the Bible then I wouldn’t believe in it

    Why do you need the Smithsonian? The review I pointed to covers the findings of actual archaeologists.

    but really consider how if nature is mindless, how can it perceive and thus create what we see as beauty.

    That makes no sense. It isn’t nature that is doing the perceiving, but human beings. And even among human beings, “beauty” is often subjective and relative.

    there has to be a mind behind it

    No, there doesn’t.

    A design has to have a designer.

    Not necessarily.

    But if a design does has to have a designer… who designed the malaria parasite to be so efficient at evading the human immune system and at killing human beings?

    The nature that we see around us reflects a higher mind a greater designer, that is why we copy designs in nature.

    Wrong.

    We copy designs in nature because they work. No “higher mind”, no “greater designer”. They simply do what they do.

    My father worked with a woman who was studying the fiber-optic sensor capabilites in nature such as in the seas sponge, which are highly superior to any man made fiber-optic sensors.

    Indeed, very interesting… but the best explanation of the fibers in the sea-sponge is evolution.

    The airforce has copied the design of birds, hence the name Falcon for one type of fighter jet.

    Absolutely wrong. Wilbur and Orville Wright did not copy birds; they studied gliders and kites. The names of planes have nothing to do with the actual birds.

    We as humans are created in the image of our Creator

    If a Creator existed as a real being, it would speak for itself. It would not need you as an ineffective and incompetent mouthpiece.

    There are also scientific evidences for the Bible: that man did not yet know about when it was written and recorded in the Bible.

    Absolutely false.

    Everything in that list is either a misinterpretation, or was suggested by Greek, Sumerian, Egyptian and/or Babylonian scholars and philosophers before it was recorded in the bible. Just as one example: “The Existence of Water Paths (Ocean Currents) in the Seas” Of course people knew about currents; sailing is many thousands of years old!!

    Sheesh.

    The difference between the Harry Potter series fictional prophecies being fulfilled is like comparing fish to monkeys. There is little comparison.

    Both fish and monkeys are animals. Both Harry Potter and the Bible are works of fiction written by human beings.

    Read Isaiah 53, you can’t just “fit” a Messiah into 700 years later

    Isaiah 53 does not say “700 years”. It doesn’t say anything about a Messiah, either.

    Keep in mind there are 2,000 prophecies that have been fulfilled, out of 2,500.

    No. No prophecies have been fulfilled.

    If you take a look again and be honest with yourself some of those are different accounts of different people, you have to remember that a lot of the Bible accounts are from eyewitnesses that have different perspectives or have different reasons for emphasizing certain people, and Jesus healed so many people, who’s to say people each person had a different reason for their blindness or deafness.

    No.

    Eyewitnesses are unreliable in the first place. This is supposed to be inspired by an almighty and perfect God. If God can’t inspire the correct details in two different places, God can’t do much of anything.

    We have no reason to see any part of the bible as being reliable.

    I also was not “quote-mining”

    Yes, you were.

    That fact that he had to make a “proposal of what “might have evolved” along with his quote that “it is absurd in the highest” degree, shows there are not a lot of facts and a lot of it is just a speculative hypothesis.

    An hypothesis is based on the facts. And something that you appear to not understand at all is that it is a common style in writing to pose a thesis, and then argue against it. So Darwin wrote that it seems absurd — and then argued against that seeming absurdity.

    As an example, here is Thomas Aquinas, the famous theologian, when he was considering the existence of God:

    Whether God exists?

    Objection 1. It seems that God does not exist; because if one of
    two contraries be infinite, the other would be altogether destroyed.
    But the word “God” means that He is infinite goodness. If,
    therefore, God existed, there would be no evil discoverable; but
    there is evil in the world. Therefore God does not exist.

    Objection 2. Further, it is superfluous to suppose that what can be
    accounted for by a few principles has been produced by many.
    But it seems that everything we see in the world can be
    accounted for by other principles, supposing God did not exist. For
    all natural things can be reduced to one principle which is nature;
    and all voluntary things can be reduced to one principle which is
    human reason, or will. Therefore there is no need to suppose
    God’s existence.

    Of course, he went on to argue against these objections (and not very well, either), but he did first put something that he did not agree with before doing so.

  • #287 emily Vasile
    October 8, 2008

    What if you are wrong and macroevolution is a fairy tale? I am not against microevolution, but I have not found adequate information to prove to me that there are intermediary links between the species. I only see evidence for specific kinds. I also see the Bible as having a valid explanation of the origin of the species more than a man who came about in the 1900′s. I am not against scientific thought, I am for it, but I am afraid and sad that today there are more faulty theories than there is truth in the scientific realm, which is sad. I always loved science and I took advanced biology in high school, but I was not impressed with the evolutionary theory. Truth be told, there is something to having spiritual wisdom verses earthly knowledge, seeking spiritual wisdom and understanding is better than all the knowledge in the world. However, I do believe that the Bible and Science are compatible, I am amazed how in the Bible it is said that the stars are innumerable when scientists said back in the day way after the Bible was written that there are only 1,100 stars, they actually thought you could count them. But, it turns out the Bible was right on that all along, how could this be unless the Creator inspired others to write it. He gave them a little info in advance that they prob. didn’t pick up on until science has confirmed it today. But, that is the magic of the Bible, it is unique and worth reading if you get a chance, especially to check out the scientific facts imbedded in it, who said you can’t mix science with religion?

  • #288 Owlmirror
    October 8, 2008

    Hell, is a place of eternal punishment, not as a scare tactic, but it is a reality, just like a murderer or a rapist or a thief if caught and tried go to jail and pay the penalty for their crime.

    Never mind that Hell is imaginary.

    Do you not realize that there is something very wrong with saying that someone who does not believe in God (perhaps willfully, but also perhaps from ignorance), yet who treats other humans with kindness, charity and compassion — will receive the exact same punishment of eternal torture as a murderer or a rapist?

    The God you worship is monstrous and evil.

    He doesn’t want anyone to go to Hell

    If that were true, salvation would not be necessary. God would simply not send anyone to Hell. Is God not omnipotent?

    but he gave us free will, none of us our puppets we all have a choice, the choice is ours.

    But we do not all have a choice. Some did not know there was a choice. Some died before knowing that the choice existed. Indeed, some still do.

    Do infants who die without knowing anything go directly to Hell?

    God has to purge evil, just like a just judge has to sentence the criminal.

    A just judge takes into account the severity of the crime before sentencing, and the frailty of the criminal, or exonerating conditions. Since God does not care about the severity of the crime or any exonerating conditions, but sentences all to the same most terrible punishment, God is not a just judge.

    We have all murdered in our hearts by hating others,

    That’s ridiculous. An emotion is not an action. Hate can die down, and even be reversed. Murder cannot; that, among other reasons, is why it is punished in human society.

  • #289 Dennis N
    October 8, 2008

    I have only skimmed Emily, but the two things I saw are Pascal’s Wager and the claim that atheists can’t have morals. I’ll be a concern troll and say I’m concerned that you’re really not prepared to have a discussion here if you believe either of those.

  • #290 Owlmirror
    October 8, 2008

    Actually, as vertebrates, fish and monkeys are much more similar than different, and there is a lot of useful and worthwhile comparison to be made. We have only scratched the surface.

    Amusingly enough, I am right now reading Your Inner Fish.

  • #291 emily Vasile
    October 8, 2008

    The most important goal in life is to search for Truth, so if you honestly feel you are searching for Truth, then you are all on the right track.

    I enjoyed dialoging, I will have to go for now. Thank you to those who remained respectful in our debate.

    This link previously failed:
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/380760/does_god_exist_the_eye/

    There are miracles all around us, interestingly evolution cannot explain how these creatures could even exist today, they are so complex there is no way they could have evolved therefore they must have been miraculously made by a Creator, check out: http://bibleprobe.com/beetle.htm &
    http://www.christiananswers.net/catalog/incredible.html

    The Bible also says this about those who refuse to see the miracles in creation all around them that point to God the Creator:

    Romans 1:20-22
    “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools”

    Check out Lee Strobel’s book a “Case for a Creator,” he was an atheist who sought out the evidence for a creator utilizing his criminal investigative reporting skills. http://www.amazon.com/Case-Creator-Journalist-Investigates-Scientific/dp/0310241448

    http://www.goodpersontest.com/test/good/?path=start

    What if Your Wrong?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zOyoR3oKs0

    The greatest evidence of all is that Jesus was crucified, died and was buried and now He lives again, so that we can have eternal life. You can either call him a Liar, a Lunatic or Lord, the evidence demands a verdict check out:
    http://www.existence-of-god.com/lord-liar-lunatic.html

    Emily :)

  • #292 Nerd of Redhead
    October 8, 2008

    Emily, what makes you think we haven’t seen your insipid arguments hundreds of times already? We also have rebuttals to each of your arguments. So your choices are to stay here and let us refute and mock you, or do as many creobots do and claim victory and go home.

  • #293 Kel
    October 8, 2008

    What if you are wrong and macroevolution is a fairy tale?

    Yes, what if evolution didn’t happen? What would that change about our world? Luckily, here’s one I prepared eaelier.

    If you couldn’t be bothered following the link, the basis is that the reason we think the world and universe are old still stands even if evolution is not true. For instance, when you look out in the sky (I assume you are in the northern hemisphere) there is a little fuzzy patch called M31. Now M31 is a galaxy, it’s about the same size as the galaxy we live in yet contains about 5 times as many stars. It’s big, very big, and it’s very far away too. It’s 2.5 million light years away. So when we look at it, we are looking at light that was generated 2.5 million years earlier. And that’s just one of the closest galaxies; our neighbour. There are galaxies that we can see that are over 13 billion light years away, and those are on the limit of the observable universe. There seems to be objects beyond the event horizon too as there is gravitational pull on those distant galaxies that surpass the expanding universe.

    So though looking outward we can see the universe is over 13 billion years old, and everything in our solar system ages at 4.5-4.6 billion years old. Life on earth started around 3.8 billion years old, multicellular life is around 700 million years old, tetrapods are about 380 million years old, mammals about 220 million years old, and finally homosapiens are about 200,000 years old. Now how do you explain life on this planet and it’s gradual emergence without evolution?

  • #294 CJO
    October 8, 2008

    Shorter emily:

    I am afraid and sad

    ’nuff said.

    the Bible, it is unique and worth reading if you get a chance

    That’s the thing, kid. We have read it. In my experience, critical atheists who take the time to discuss the matter have a much more thorough knowledge of the bible and its history and origins than the nattering godbots who pretend to find something in it to live their lives by.

    Advice: read widely, from many sources, not exclusively creationists and fundamentalist apologists. Your views are radically ill-informed. In short, you have been lied to.

  • #295 Kel
    October 8, 2008

    See the reason you have a girlfriend, is because God loves you

    So the reason I don’t have a girlfriend is because God hates me?

  • #296 Kel
    October 8, 2008

    The reason the world is such a mess and people are so angry and broken is because they need Jesus

    Close but no cigar. The world is a mess right now because people are waiting for supernatural intervention instead of trying to work out problems for themselves. It’s not that they need Jesus, it’s because they are waiting on Jesus to do it so they don’t have to do it themselves.

    “I’m not a praying man, but if you are out there please save me superman” – Homer Simpson

  • #297 Nerd of Redhead
    October 8, 2008

    That’s the thing, kid. We have read it. In my experience, critical atheists who take the time to discuss the matter have a much more thorough knowledge of the bible and its history and origins than the nattering godbots who pretend to find something in it to live their lives by.

    For example, I’ve read it cover to cover twice. A truly horrid book at the end of the day, with no grounding in reality. It contradicts itself so much only the mentally ill can say it is all the word of god and have it all make total sense. God seems not to be omniscient or omnipresent, which are requirements for the job.

  • #298 Emily Vasile
    October 8, 2008

    What if Your Wrong?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zOyoR3oKs0

    There are miracles all around us, interestingly evolution cannot explain how these creatures could even exist today, they are so complex there is no way they could have evolved therefore they must have been miraculously made by a Creator, check out: http://bibleprobe.com/beetle.htm &
    http://www.christiananswers.net/catalog/incredible.html

    The Bible also says this about those who refuse to see the miracles in creation all around them that point to God the Creator:

    Romans 1:20-22
    “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so=2
    0that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools”

    Check out Lee Strobel’s book a “Case for a Creator,” if you want more evidence, he was atheist criminal investigative reporter and loves facts. http://www.amazon.com/Case-Creator-Journalist-Investigates-Scientific/dp/0310241448

    The greatest evidence of all is that Jesus was crucified, died and was buried and now He lives again, so that we can have eternal life. You can either call him a Liar, a Lunatic or Lord, the evidence demands a verdict check out:http://www.existence-of-god.com/lord-liar-lunatic.html

    Love and Prayers to the man upstairs, lol!
    Emily :)

  • #299 Emily Vasile
    October 8, 2008

    Nice debating, Goodnight all!

  • #300 Owlmirror
    October 8, 2008

    What if you are wrong and macroevolution is a fairy tale?

    Evolutionary biology is supported by 150 years worth of science. Like all of science, it builds on what came before it, and looks carefully at new evidence. Evolution cannot be a “fairy tale”. If some part is wrong, then the evidence for that will be discovered, and the theory will change. But so far, the theory has not had to change a great deal at all, in its broad details.

    I have not found adequate information to prove to me that there are intermediary links between the species.

    Do you have “adequate information” to prove that you are related to your parents, your siblings, your cousins, and to all other human beings?

    It is science that provides the evidence for the interrelatedness of humans; of individuals within a species. That same science shows the interrelatedness of species themselves, no matter how strange the organism may otherwise be.

    I always loved science and I took advanced biology in high school, but I was not impressed with the evolutionary theory.

    Sigh. Have you considered that perhaps it was your education that was inadequate, rather than the theory?

    I am amazed how in the Bible it is said that the stars are innumerable when scientists said back in the day way after the Bible was written that there are only 1,100 stars, they actually thought you could count them.

    Who said such a thing? Tell us, please, who wrote that there were only about one thousand stars?

    Because that is mind-bogglingly, laughably dumb. And if it was proposed in seriousness, the one proposing it was just wrong. Science is all about rejecting that which is demonstrably wrong…

    But, it turns out the Bible was right on that all along, how could this be unless the Creator inspired others to write it.

    Sigh. Don’t be stupid.

    Go to a place with a clear night sky, outside of any city and its light pollution, and look up.

    Of course there are a lot of stars. You can see that there are a lot of stars, with your own two eyes.

    You’re seeing the same thing that the writers of the bible saw, pretty much. They didn’t need God “to inspire them” to see that.

    But it is science that can tell us what they are made of, and that they are much like our own sun, and how long they last, and that they can and do change and move, and how far away they are. The bible has nothing like that.

    But, that is the magic of the Bible, it is unique and worth reading if you get a chance, especially to check out the scientific facts imbedded in it, who said you can’t mix science with religion?

    Religious people who are scientists have to separate out their faith and their investigation of the evidence….

  • #301 Kel
    October 8, 2008

    Got to love how creationists will explicitly dismiss biology (and implicitly dismiss all other branches of science) in one sentence, then in the very next sentence talk about how much they love science or that science and religion are compatible. That kind of doublespeak may work on the gullible in mass, but it doesn’t work among a group of the scientifically literate.

    She might as well be saying “science is wrong where the bible says it’s wrong, and it’s right where we can interpret the bible to say it’s right”. She’ll explicitly show where her head is, but at least she’ll be honest. There’s something in the bible about lying being a sin, right?

  • #302 Owlmirror
    October 9, 2008
    I am amazed how in the Bible it is said that the stars are innumerable when scientists said back in the day way after the Bible was written that there are only 1,100 stars, they actually thought you could count them.

    Who said such a thing? Tell us, please, who wrote that there were only about one thousand stars?

    Oh, for pity’s sake.

    I became curious, and took a few minutes to research ancient star catalogues. Of course, it would turn out that the most famous in ancient times was the Almagest, which listed…. 1022 stars.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_catalogue#Historical_catalogues

    (additional searching shows that the list has variants of up to 1028 stars)

    So… You’re referencing a catalogue compiled before telescopes; indeed, in the same work that posited the discredited geocentric model of cosmology….?

    Who is it, exactly, who said that “scientists” said that this particular catalogue contained all the stars that there are?

  • #303 Emily Vasile
    October 9, 2008

    Owlmirror,

    My comment: “The airforce has copied the design of birds, hence the name Falcon for one type of fighter jet.”

    Your reply: “Absolutely wrong. Wilbur and Orville Wright did not copy birds; they studied gliders and kites. The names of planes have nothing to do with the actual birds.”

    The facts:

    “The Wright brothers, having been avid bird-watchers, are said to have modeled their airplane wing after that of a bird. Today’s innovators are likewise turning to winged species for inspiration in developing the optimal UAV for military applications.”
    -From Military and Aerospace Electronics

    http://mae.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Archives&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=298457

    I am more of a “wing” nut then you guys might have thought, lol!

    Emily :)

  • #304 Owlimirror
    October 9, 2008

    “The Wright brothers, having been avid bird-watchers, are said to have modeled their airplane wing after that of a bird.

    And yet the wings of their airplane did not flap! Come on, this is a no-brainer… Or is that the problem?

    Today’s innovators are likewise turning to winged species for inspiration in developing the optimal UAV for military applications.

    Uh-huh. Good for them. Note that they are looking at such wings because they work.

    Note also that micro-UAV designers are also looking at insect wings — also because they work:

    http://www.delfly.nl/

  • #305 phantomreader42
    October 9, 2008

    Thank you, Emily, for demonstrating that you are totally incapable of addressing any issue of substance. It’s the kind of utterly worthless style of babbling that we’ve come to expect from creationists.

    You keep asking “what if you’re wrong?” If we were wrong, there would be some evidence that we were wrong. Where is this evidence?

    And of course you can’t bring yourself to consider, even for a second, the possibility that YOU might be wrong. Because you’re terrified that if you dare to actually look at the evidence, your imaginary friend will do mean things to you.

    You worship a god that you claim loves us. Actual living breathing human beings who love us are capable of expressing that love in ways we can actually observe. Your imaginary god is utterly incapable of doing this. Why? It’s simple, it’s because he doesn’t exist.

    You worship a god that you claim loves us, and yet you think this same god will torture anyone who falls short of his impossibly-high standards for all eternity. That is not love. That is evil. Your god does not exist, but if it did exist, it would be a monster.

    Emily’s babbling @ #282:

    See the reason you have a girlfriend, is because God loves you and He said back in Genesis, that it is not good for man to be alone because he needed a helpmate. What better expression of love is that?

    Well, I can think of several ways this could be a better expression of love. For example, he could have actually said this to me, explicitly, instead of hiding behind random events. The people I love speak to me. They actually say the words “I love you”. Your imaginary god has never done this. Is he simply too stupid to figure out how to speak English? No, he just isn’t real.

    More babble:

    He gave you a tangible woman to hold and to love.

    And yet he apparently saw fit to put her in a different country, give her a so-far-incurable disease, and ensure she lacked the financial resources to visit on any regular schedule. If an all-powerful god were behind all this, he’d have to be either a sadist or an idiot. As it is, it’s clear there is no such being.

    Yet more babble:

    But, he also has certain standards, if you really love your girlfriend and want to show her the greatest expression of love, it is through the commitment of the marriage union, which God also created.

    If your supposedly all-powerful god wanted me to get married, he would be perfectly capable of teleporting my bride, her cat, and all her household goods to my home, and transforming the charcoal ash in my grill into a diamond wedding ring. Now THAT would be clear and unambiguous evidence of both his existence and his love. The fact that he has not done this, or anything remotely similar to this, means that we have to do the work our own damn selves. When a human being loves someone, they help that person. Your imaginary god has not lifted a single finger to help us.

    Emily babbles about the Wholly Babble:

    See the message of the Bible gets at the heart, God wants to turn our hearts of “stone” into hearts of “flesh” through his Son’s Jesus’ death on the cross he conquered everything that was evil that destroys people and relationships which is called sin.

    If god is all-powerful, and created us, and wants us to have “hearts of “flesh”", why would he give us “hearts of “stone”"? Is your god an idiot? Really, are you not capable of thinking this through?

    He took your sin and my sin and nailed it to the cross with his blood and he died and rose again so we could have eternal life.

    And what evidence do you have to support this claim, aside from the sworn testimony of the voices in your head? If your supposedly all-powerful god wanted to get rid of “sin”, he could have just DONE so, there would be no need for all that rigamarole with nailing anyone to a cross. There is no need for blood, anyone’s blood, as a price for forgiveness. It’s just a throwback to the dark days of human sacrifice. In truth, your religion is not that different form the Aztecs cutting out people’s hearts to make sure the sun will rise. Unnecessary ritual and needless death.

    Emily lies, as all creationists must:

    See without Jesus people don’t know how to love.

    OBJECTION: STATEMENT CONTRADICTS KNOWN FACTS, WITNESS IS LYING!

    People in this very thread, who openly state their lack of faith in your imagianry god, have expressed a far better understanding of love than you have. This claim is false, and you know it’s false, the evidence against it is overwhelming and right in front of your lying face.

    Isn’t your imaginary god supposed to have some sort of problem with bearing false witness, Emily? I’m sure you’ve convinced yourself it’s not really lying as long as you’re Lying For Jesus?. But here’s the fact: you are lying. You are saying something you know to be false, and everyone here knows it. You are a fraud.

    Emily shows how stupid and evil her religion is:

    Hell, is a place of eternal punishment, not as a scare tactic, but it is a reality, just like a murderer or a rapist or a thief if caught and tried go to jail and pay the penalty for their crime. So Jesus will judge for every idle, thought, and action if we are not covered in his blood. He gives the free gift of salvation to all, which is freedom from the bondage of sin and and He gives eternal life. He doesn’t want anyone to go to Hell, but he gave us free will, none of us our puppets we all have a choice, the choice is ours. God has to purge evil, just like a just judge has to sentence the criminal. We have all murdered in our hearts by hating others, including myself, we all deserve Hell because of it, but no one has to go there.

    So, your imaginary god is so stupid he cannot make any distinction between crimes in regards to severity? There is one and only one penalty, eternal torture for ANY imperfection, no matter how slight? This is simply insane! There is no justice in this, none whatsoever. No sane person would give the same punishment for littering as for genocide! Yet you claim your imaginary god does just this?! And that it’s a GOOD thing? What the fuck is wrong with you? This is stupid, and it is evil. Your god is lucky he doesn’t really exist. If he did, I would spit in his face. As it is, I am left to marvel at the evil that the faithful will embrace and celebrate in the name of their imaginary friend. It sickens me that you really believe that innnocent people deserve to be tortured for all time simply because they doubt the existence of your imaginary friend. If you had any conscience at all, you would object to this horrible injustice. But you don’t. You celebrate it. You revel in the thought of your fellow human beings suffering without end. This is why your beliefs are not only wrong, they are EVIL. Your imaginary god is a monster.

    No one has to go to hell, because there is no hell. There is no sickening pit of endless torment for the slightest imperfection. And there is no jailer over that pit. There is no god. You do NOT deserve Hell, Emily. No one does. The prison you fear exists only in your mind. Free yourself. Cast off this evil you have been brainwashed with. Have some compassion for your fellow human beings. Reject this immense injustice. Stop worshipping this imaginary monster!

  • #306 phantomreader42
    October 9, 2008

    Owlmirror @ #286:But if a design does has to have a designer… who designed the malaria parasite to be so efficient at evading the human immune system and at killing human beings?

    Ah, yes, the classic creationist idiocy of “there must be a god, he created so many beautiful things!” I think it’s best answered in song:

    All things dull and ugly,
    All creatures short and squat,
    All things rude and nasty,
    The Lord God made the lot.
    Each little snake that poisons,
    Each little wasp that stings,
    He made their brutish venom,
    He made their horrid wings.
    All things sick and cancerous,
    All evil great and small,
    All things foul and dangerous,
    The Lord God made them all.
    Each nasty little hornet,
    Each beastly little squid,
    Who made the spiky urchin?
    Who made the sharks? He did.
    All things scabbed and ulcerous,
    All pox both great and small,
    Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
    The Lord God made them all.

    I’ve posted this here before. I’m a little surprised at how many times this song has been quoted here. But then, I guess I shouldn’t be, given all the Python fans. I’m also a little worried that I’ve got most of it memorized and barely had to look it up.

  • #307 Nerd of Redhead
    October 9, 2008

    Emily, I gave you a way to save face by declaring victory and going away. You were too stupid to take it, and now must face the consequences of your rash decision.

    Emily, time for you to show the hard physical evidence for your god, or be shown to be a conwomen (better known a liar and bullshitter). A good godbot creobot must have the proper evidence in your back pocket. Why not show (not talk about) it?

  • #308 phantomreader42
    October 9, 2008

    Nerd of Redhead @ #307:

    Emily, time for you to show the hard physical evidence for your god, or be shown to be a conwomen (better known a liar and bullshitter).

    Too late, she’s already been exposed as a liar, I’ve got it in detail just a couple posts above yours.

    And by now, even if she could come up with evidence for her god, it’s clear all she’d have evidence of is a monstrous, sadistic idiot.

  • #309 Nerd of Redhead
    October 9, 2008

    Phantomreader 42, Creobots and godbots are very dense. Repeated messages are required. We all know what she doesn’t tell the truth or understand much science, but she hasn’t yet realized she’s in wwwaaayyyy over her head. Keep posting your rebuttals.

    Emily, who created your creator? And who created that creator? Or will you just weasel (lie your way) out by trying to claim that your version of god (versus all the others) always existed, even when the universe didn’t exist.

  • #310 phantomreader42
    October 9, 2008

    Oh, I’m fully aware that Emily is dense. It’s painfully obvious she hasn’t got the slightest idea what she’s talking about, she’s never thought any of this through, and she doesn’t want to. She’d rather die than face reality. And if she dares show herself around here again, she’ll just ignore everything of substance and babble some more. Like all creationists, she doesn’t have a single thing to say that’s worth hearing. It’s all bullshit.

    Emily, do you think I’m wrong in the above analysis? Well prove it. Show us the slightest speck of evidence for any of your idiotic claims. We all know you won’t, because you can’t.

  • #311 Dennis N
    October 9, 2008

    Not only do engineers look to bird’s wings to study flight, they look to evolutionary processes to create computer simulations that use evolution to create better wings. Evolutionary processes are much more efficient than pure design.

  • #312 Dennis N
    October 9, 2008

    Not only do engineers look to bird’s wings to study flight, they look to evolutionary processes to create computer simulations that use evolution to create better wings. Evolutionary processes are much more efficient than pure design.

  • #313 Dennis N
    October 9, 2008

    Ah, stupid comment server!

  • #314 Iain Walker
    October 10, 2008

    Emily Vasile (#287):

    I have not found adequate information to prove to me that there are intermediary links between the species.

    That’s because you’re not trying.

    Continuous species-to-species transitions are rare in the fossil record, but they do exist. They’re rare because they require particular conditions for preservation – a large population of organisms and conditions of continuous sedimentation, so that large samples of the population are being regularly preserved. These conditions are usually only found in certain marine environments, and so most examples are transitions in planktonic species like radiolarians (some other examples are here).

    Furthermore, smooth series of intermediates between existing species are amply demonstrated by the phenomenon of ring species.

    I only see evidence for specific kinds.

    Well, that’s what happens when you ignore evidence to the contrary.

    I also see the Bible as having a valid explanation of the origin of the species more than a man who came about in the 1900′s.

    Hmm. Charles Darwin, 1809-1882.

    Oh, and magic is not an explanation. Indeed, while the existence of reasonably distinct species is an expected consequence of evolution (even if the boundaries are sometimes fuzzy, but then that is also an expected consequence of evolution), creationism makes no such predictions. I.e., given creationism, there is no particular reason to expect organisms to fall into distinct populations. So not only does creationism fail to provide any adequate explanation for how species come about, it doesn’t even explain why there are species in the first place.

    I took advanced biology in high school

    Apparently not advanced enough.

    there is something to having spiritual wisdom verses earthly knowledge, seeking spiritual wisdom and understanding is better than all the knowledge in the world.

    Translation: “I would rather indulge in wishful thinking than make the effort to find things out.”

    I am amazed how in the Bible it is said that the stars are innumerable when scientists said back in the day way after the Bible was written that there are only 1,100 stars, they actually thought you could count them.

    But you can count them, although not one at a time. The number of stars in the observable universe can be estimated at between 3 and 7 × 1022, based on observed stellar densities. So this would be a case of the bible getting it wrong.

    And there’s nothing amazing about an ancient text claiming that the stars are “innumerable”. It’s just an expansive way of saying “Gosh, there really are lots of stars, aren’t there? Too many for me to count, anyway.” That’s one of the irksome things about biblical literalists – they have no feeling for poetry, metaphor or indeed any creative use of language.

  • #315 BdN
    October 11, 2008

    Jeremiah 46 :

    “The voice thereof shall go like a serpent; for they shall march with an army, and come against her with axes, as hewers of wood. 23 They shall cut down her forest, saith the LORD, though it cannot be searched; because they are more than the grasshoppers, and are innumerable.”

    Psalms 104

    25 So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts.

    Nahum 3

    3 The horseman lifteth up both the bright sword and the glittering spear: and there is a multitude of slain, and a great number of carcases; and there is none end of their corpses;

    Wow, so many things that cannot be counted ! I believe!!

  • #316 Iain Walker
    October 12, 2008

    BdN (#315):

    Heh. Nicely illustrated.

  • #317 maureen
    October 12, 2008

    Emily,

    One of the ideas in the New Testament – as we currently have it, probably not in the first drafts – is that Jesus died to atone for our sins. That’s all our sins, ever. So if the “penalty” has already been paid why is there still Hell?

  • #318 phantomreader42
    October 14, 2008

    Aw, poor widdle Emiwy. Forced to run away just because of her complete lack of anything approaching evidence. It’s not her fault her imaginary friend is utterly incapable of doing anything useful. It’s not her fault she’s forced to use bullshit arguments and worthless analogies, she hasn’t got anything else. It’s not her fault that her only consolation when her complete inability to contribute anything of substance is pointed out is to fantasize about all the reality-based community being tortured for all eternity.

    No, wait, it IS her fault. The very fact that she posted here proves that she is capable of reading, and has Internet access. There’s a wealth of information at her fingertips, and if she applied herself she could actually learn about the real world. She CHOOSES not to learn. Her ignorance was forced upon her as a child, and is sadly endorsed by our society, but at some point she has made a conscious decision to reinforce that ignorance, rather than eliminating it. Her total lack of substance is her own fault, because she could learn, but refuses to.

  • #319 Chloe
    February 1, 2009

    Oh would you guys shut the heck up. That is an awesome picture. It proves that god is holding on to you and will never let you go. Never ever. There are millions of those inside you right now.

  • #320 Nerd of Redhead
    February 1, 2009

    Chloe, what god? The one that only exists between your ears? The one we renounced?

  • #321 Owlmirror
    February 1, 2009

    Oh would you guys shut the heck up. That is an awesome picture. It proves that god is holding on to you and will never let you go. Never ever. There are millions of those inside you right now.

    I suppose you worship the ancient Greek God Hermes? So few do, in these decadent modern times.

    PS:   http://www.snopes.com/glurge/laminin.asp

  • #322 A Servant
    April 20, 2009

    Jesus Said: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened?.. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. NKJV. Is it an intellectual leap to think that if there was no uncertainty principle in fabric of space time than man could not have had free will. Or is the act of faith to say that free will could exist with no uncertainty in the design. Is it an intellectual leap to think explosions do not result in a fined tuned universe or is it faith to think that explosions can. Is it a leap to say spontaneous generation of life can occur when that is unsupported, or to say that it designed. As sure as any historical fact , Jesus Christ died on a cross, and after his life was over the Romans and Jewish leaders could not stop the understanding that he raised from the dead. Those being ridiculed are seeking. Seek and you will find. He is … knocking.

  • #323 Doc
    February 28, 2010

    I do have to say, if I were going to buy into anything Mr. Meyers would present, well it would be very difficult to do so. His unintelligent manners, his extreme prejudice, and tainted biases are influencing his comments. I have learned early on in life, when people speak such things in this manner, not to give much credence to their statements whatsoever. In all cases spewing hatred as this man does nullifies any and all statements. And to think this gentlemen is a professor at a university, attempting to make many ad hominem attacks to discredit the gentlemen in the video. Oh wait, he is not a professor, he is only an associate professor. Maybe that explains the unintelligible ranting. I will make certain not to recommend this university to any wise and intelligent student. I can only imagine what he considers sound and fair curriculum in order to teach facts rather than bias and prejudice. This man should be considered dangerous to young minds, influencing students to think as he does. This is criminal.

  • #324 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    February 28, 2010

    Ah, a tone troll. Never refutes anything, just says we are mean. Nice is irrelevant to the truth of the argument. You have nothing evidence wise to over, so you must complain about tone. As if tone means anything. If you can’t say something nice about PZ, maybe you should not have posted. Hypocrite.

  • #325 Doc
    February 28, 2010

    Wow, I have read even more of the comments here. I see it is too late. Mr. Meyers has affected the intelligence of all who write and spew utter ignorance here. Where is all the intellect gone? Is this what universities are teaching students, to think themselves to be so wise, and so educated they can come to a forum and pour out so much bias and hatred and think they would actually be taken seriously? I thought there was going to be intelligent discourse here, but I can plainly see for myself, this is not the place to come for intellectual stimuli.

    While I attended university I realized how much there is to know, and my eyes were opened, I am not a “know it all,” as it seems many purport themselves to be here.

    I think there is a lot of fraud here. Students stating they are wise, educated and intellectual, when the opposite is tragically evident.

  • #326 Doc
    February 28, 2010

    The evidence for what I claim of the utter ignorance here is not on tone, but on presentation by the ignorant. This forum is my evidence.

  • #327 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    February 28, 2010

    . I see it is too late. Mr. Meyers has affected the intelligence of all who write and spew utter ignorance here.

    What ignorance. We are very well read and very literate.

    Where is all the intellect gone?

    Well, it obviously missed you, otherwise you would be doing your pointless posts.

    I thought there was going to be intelligent discourse here, but I can plainly see for myself, this is not the place to come for intellectual stimuli.

    It depends on what you mean my intellectual stimuli. If you want science, you get plenty. If you want the mental masturbation of religion of philosophy, this is the wrong blog. But then, this is science blogs.

    I am not a “know it all,” as it seems many purport themselves to be here.

    We don’t know it all, but when a terrible unevidence argument when we hear it. Like creationism.

    I think there is a lot of fraud here.

    The only fraud is your attitude. There is no fraud here. It is obvious you don’t like the science, so the science and mean people must be wrong.

    Students stating they are wise, educated and intellectual, when the opposite is tragically evident.

    Show some hard evidence this is the case from legitimate sources outside of yourself. Welcome to science, where evidence, not opinion, rules.

  • #328 PZ Myers
    February 28, 2010

    Well, “Doc”, do you have anything to say about the shape of the laminin molecule? Do you think it is intelligent to find justification for a superstition in the incidental shape of a protein?

    You haven’t said word one about the subject of the post, but have only whined about the tone. You’re confirming my impression of you guys.

  • #329 Sven DiMilo
    February 28, 2010

    Oh wait, he is not a professor, he is only an associate professor.

    *The Eyeroll of Ignorance*

  • #330 PZ Myers
    February 28, 2010

    I think “Doc” has run away now.

  • #331 Knockgoats
    February 28, 2010

    This man should be considered dangerous to young minds, influencing students to think as he does. This is criminal. – Doc

    What a coincidence! That’s exactly what the Athenian religious bigots of his day said about Socrates! Unfortunately for you, Doc, I don’t think you and your ilk currently have the power to force teachers whose ideas you dislike to drink hemlock.

  • #332 Knockgoats
    February 28, 2010

    A Grovelling Slave,

    Is it an intellectual leap to think that if there was no uncertainty principle in fabric of space time than man could not have had free will.

    Yes.

    Or is the act of faith to say that free will could exist with no uncertainty in the design.

    No. Read Dennett’s Freedom Evolves for details.

    Is it an intellectual leap to think explosions do not result in a fined tuned universe or is it faith to think that explosions can.

    Since the Big Bang was not an explosion, and there is no evidence the universe is “finely tuned” (see Victor Stenger: Is the universe finely tuned for us?), these questions are otiose.

    Is it a leap to say spontaneous generation of life can occur when that is unsupported, or to say that it designed.

    The latter. If life was designed, the designer was clearly a complete klutz. Research on the origins of life is making steady progress. Google the work of (nobel prizewinner) Jack Shostak, and that of George Church, for example.

    As sure as any historical fact, Jesus Christ died on a cross, and after his life was over the Romans and Jewish leaders could not stop the understanding that he raised from the dead.

    Garbage. At the earliest, the first written records were made decades after the supposed death of Jesus, whose very existence is by no means certain. The supposedly reliable gospels are mutually inconsistent, and make obviously false claims, such as that there was a darkness that lasted several hours during the crucifixion, and that the dead left their graves in hundreds. Had these things happened, they would have been recorded by Roman sources. We can conclude that nothing in the gospels is to be trusted.