Pharyngula

Mail dump

Please STOP SENDING EMAIL TO THESE INDIVIDUALS. There are too many of you, the over-reaction is excessive, and you are not doing our reputation any favor. See this message for more.


Some of you may have noticed the little promise over in the left sidebar.

I reserve the right to publicly post, with full identifying information about the source, any email sent to me that contains threats of violence.

I’m posting without comment the worst of today’s crop of email threats. Formatting will be little wacky since it is just a raw dump of the mail with headers.

	From: 	mkroll@1800FLOWERS.com
	Subject: 	your short life
	Date: 	July 13, 2008 8:07:31 AM CDT
	To: 	myersp@morris.umn.edu
	Delivered-To: 	pzmyers@gmail.com
	Received: 	by 10.100.126.5 with SMTP id y5cs262374anc; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:08:03 -0700 (PDT)
	Received: 	by 10.65.237.15 with SMTP id o15mr14501258qbr.56.1215954482483; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:08:02 -0700 (PDT)
	Received: 	from mtain-a.tc.umn.edu (mtain-a.tc.umn.edu [134.84.119.205]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id u2si9779510pyb.16.2008.07.13.06.08.01; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:08:02 -0700 (PDT)
	Received: 	from 1800flowers.int (mail2.800-flowers.net [205.153.87.31]) by mtain-a.tc.umn.edu (UMN smtpd) with ESMTP for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 08:08:01 -0500 (CDT)
	Received: 	from ([10.180.1.74]) by CPNYMAIL02.1800flowers.int with ESMTP  id 5202711.34123806; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:07:31 -0400
	Return-Path: 	
	Return-Path: 	
	Received-Spf: 	neutral (google.com: 134.84.119.205 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of mkroll@1800flowers.com) client-ip=134.84.119.205;
	Authentication-Results: 	mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 134.84.119.205 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of mkroll@1800flowers.com) smtp.mail=mkroll@1800flowers.com
	X-Umn-Remote-Mta: 	[N] mail2.800-flowers.net [205.153.87.31] #+HN+NR+OF (I,-)
	X-Umn-Report-As-Spam: 	
	X-Mimeole: 	Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5
	Content-Class: 	urn:content-classes:message
	Mime-Version: 	1.0
	Message-Id: 	<900E52131BA0F248B0CB176E84D0A26E06DE335A@18f-exch01.1800flowers.int>
	X-Ms-Has-Attach: 	
	X-Ms-Tnef-Correlator: 	
	Thread-Topic: 	your short life
	Thread-Index: 	AcjkaTBIDzgwGOqkTNCCBD35Hlh9EA==
	Content-Type: 	multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8E4E9.68CD4469"
	
Paul,
 
what I would like to know is how did you even
get a job at a collage.
 
when you are obviously a moron.
How would you feel if nice folks starting ranting against
Fags, and atheist like yourself.
 
well sir, you don't get to blaspheme and walk away from this.
You have two choices my fucked up friend, first you can quit your job for the good of the
children. Or you can get your brains beat in.
 
I give you till the first of the month, get that resignation in cunt
 


This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or
proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or
entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is
not the intended recipient or his or her authorized agent, the
reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received this
e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to this
message and delete this e-mail immediately.





	From: 	smonte19@hotmail.com
	Subject: 	
	Date: 	July 13, 2008 3:14:56 PM CDT
	To: 	myersp@morris.umn.edu
	Delivered-To: 	pzmyers@gmail.com
	Received: 	by 10.100.126.5 with SMTP id y5cs276508anc; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:15:00 -0700 (PDT)
	Received: 	by 10.65.210.19 with SMTP id m19mr15299936qbq.45.1215980100172; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:15:00 -0700 (PDT)
	Received: 	from mtain-w.tc.umn.edu (mtain-w.tc.umn.edu [134.84.119.8]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id n29si11045669pyh.32.2008.07.13.13.14.59; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:15:00 -0700 (PDT)
	Received: 	from bay0-omc3-s18.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s18.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.218]) by mtain-w.tc.umn.edu (UMN smtpd) with ESMTP for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:14:59 -0500 (CDT)
	Received: 	from BAY139-W13 ([64.4.43.48]) by bay0-omc3-s18.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:14:56 -0700
	Return-Path: 	
	Return-Path: 	
	Received-Spf: 	softfail (google.com: domain of transitioning smonte19@hotmail.com does not designate 134.84.119.8 as permitted sender) client-ip=134.84.119.8;
	Authentication-Results: 	mx.google.com; spf=softfail (google.com: domain of transitioning smonte19@hotmail.com does not designate 134.84.119.8 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=smonte19@hotmail.com
	X-Umn-Remote-Mta: 	[N] bay0-omc3-s18.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.218] #+IX+NR+UF+CP (R,-)
	X-Umn-Report-As-Spam: 	
	Message-Id: 	
	Content-Type: 	multipart/alternative; boundary="_860d5675-0c3f-48fa-a7b4-273f8a3eaf49_"
	X-Originating-Ip: 	[69.119.180.20]
	Importance: 	Normal
	Mime-Version: 	1.0
	X-Originalarrivaltime: 	13 Jul 2008 20:14:56.0487 (UTC) FILETIME=[1E4B6F70:01C8E525]
	
	


Professor Myers


You are a scumbag, may your insides rot, may your neck be snapped by an iron boot against a curb, I hope 
for a world without liberals, we can start with you

Making the world a better place one message at a time. Check out the i'm Talkathon.

Comments

  1. #1 MAJeff, OM
    July 13, 2008

    How would you feel if nice folks starting ranting against
    Fags, and atheist like yourself.

    That sounds like America as it exists today; indeed it sounds like the anti-gay hate group that is the Roman Catholic Church and Pope Nazinger.

  2. #2 Carlie
    July 13, 2008

    Wow. I can’t believe you have to put up with this shit. I heartily approve of your new policy.

  3. #3 Kobra
    July 13, 2008

    I fully endorse this new policy.

  4. #4 eyerock
    July 13, 2008

    now we can start emailing them….and spamming them to death.

  5. #5 Martin Jonsson
    July 13, 2008

    Entertainment on a regular basis in your mailbox, I don’t see the problem.

  6. #6 Richard Harris
    July 13, 2008

    It’a amazing how these religious bozos think that their magic god-thing can’t fight its own battles. Do they, at some level, realize that their religion is just a made-up pile of stinking crap?

  7. #7 Trolling
    July 13, 2008

    Disregard that; I suck cocks.

  8. #8 MAJeff, OM
    July 13, 2008

    This has reminded me of a bit in one of Margaret Cho’s standup routines (I think it’s in Assassin).

    During the ’04 election, she did a lot of campaigning for the Dems, and, well, Margaret’s comedy isn’t really friendly toward Republicans, conservatives, or the Pope (“Queen, Please!”)

    She got a bunch of email like this, with all the intelligence of the offspring of brother and sister Freepers, and she prints the emails….and starts getting emails from the haters like, “Please call off the gay people.”

    “It was like I’d unleashed a sleeper cell of Al-Gayda!”

  9. #9 JRY
    July 13, 2008

    Re #4:

    Spamming them? How about reporting them to the appropriate authorities?

  10. #10 MAJeff, OM
    July 13, 2008

    Disregard that; I suck cocks.

    You say it like that’s a bad thing.

    Could we get away from this idea that cocksucking is some kind of grievous insult? It’s a wonderful skill, and it’s practitioners should be praised not denigrated.

  11. #11 Gustaf
    July 13, 2008

    Man, here I wrote a NICE mail to Mr Myers and got no response. No wonder, if this is the kind of a-hole mails he get, i bet all of it ends up in the junk except some lucky few.

    Well, good Policy PZ, cheeses, and its amazing they call ATHEIST immoral.

  12. #12 PZ Myers
    July 13, 2008

    No! Don’t respond by spamming them back! These could very well be fake or phished email addresses (I think you can count on it for the first one).

  13. #13 Kobra
    July 13, 2008

    The first address came from 1800flowers.com.

    You know what that means: Time to send emails to the corporation. :D

  14. #14 Hephaestus
    July 13, 2008

    PZ -

    You might want to forward Mr. Roll’s submission back to HR at 1800Flowers. Most companies would have a corporate stroke if they knew that their employees were using company e-mail for threats like this.

    This is actionable in court. You can at least have the satisfaction of watching one of your attackers burn.

    - Robert

  15. #15 Chuck
    July 13, 2008

    What do emails say?

    Nothing.

    Who knows who actually writes them.

    That is, even with the IP information and so on…who are these people? Are they acquaintances of the Prof, sympathizers, who agree to write letters to make the prof’s opponenets look worse? Are they just idiots with nothing better to do? Idiots who have no dog in this fight and just want the Prof to notice them?

    An email tells me nothing about who really wrote them. It doesn’t tell me anything about those who disagree with the Prof.

    Sort of like the Bible.

    Just because someone says they wrote something,doesn’t mean anything in the text is true or accurate or even if the identity of the person is as claimed. It doesn’t tell me anything about the true motivation of the person writing the email. Are they really in opposition to the Prof, or are they playing a convoluted game to help the Prof raise sympathy for himself?

    Historical Critical Method v. Blind Faith in the Prof.

    You decide!

  16. #16 JRY
    July 13, 2008

    And on another note, please tell me that the mkroll@1800FLOWERS.com addy was spoofed.

  17. #17 eyerock
    July 13, 2008

    #9
    yeah cause email isn’t really anonymous is it…. :P

  18. #18 MAJeff, OM
    July 13, 2008

    I shouldn’t laugh, but including a mini anti-gay rant in the middle of an email from 1800Flowers.com just tickles my bitter queeny heart.

  19. #19 Charades
    July 13, 2008

    @ eyerock #4: Ha!

    Seriously, these people are acting like demented barbarians. They NEED to be spammed. And prayed for, of course . . . in the new sense of the word ;)

    I’m a long-time lurker; this is my first comment on Pharyngula. I love this blog!

  20. #20 Tiax
    July 13, 2008

    One wonders if 1800flowers.com approves of company resources being used to send violent threats.

  21. #21 pradeep
    July 13, 2008

    The first guy is emailing PZ from his 1800flowers.com work address. I wonder how his boss would take it if someone complained that he is sending violent threats using a corporate email address? Wouldn’t he get fired for this?

  22. #22 Patrick Orlob
    July 13, 2008

    I’m telling you, you really need to get a giant octopus bodyguard.

  23. #23 SC
    July 13, 2008

    Scary people. At least one refers to you respectfully as “Professor” before threatening to snap your neck – must be new to the whole death-threat thing.

    Horrifying.

  24. #24 Katharine
    July 13, 2008

    Whether or not the first e-mail was spoofed, I suggest you send the email straight to their company’s HR and tell them to check it out.

  25. #25 Michael Bach
    July 13, 2008

    I’m always amused with emails that have that disclaimer at the bottom, as if just SAYING “any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited” makes it legally binding.

  26. #26 JayD
    July 13, 2008

    No! Don’t respond by spamming them back! These could very well be fake or phished email addresses (I think you can count on it for the first one).
    Hmm. If PZ thinks they’re fake e-mails, why is he bothering to post them? I’m not saying he shouldn’t, I’m just curious.

  27. #27 Hephaestus
    July 13, 2008

    And yet, Chuck (#15), even without an IP address, your posting tells me a lot about you. For one thing, it tells me that you are an offensive little troll.

  28. #28 Tony
    July 13, 2008

    Hey, the first guy works for a florist!

    The second’s only managed three posts in four years!

  29. #29 pradeep
    July 13, 2008

    He is not saying the emails are fake, but the return email addresses may be stolen or faked. However, the header on the 1800flowers one seems to be legitimate with the proper follow-back to the originating servers.

  30. #30 Nick Johnson
    July 13, 2008

    Judging by the Received headers on the first one, it certainly looks like it did actually come from where it claims to come from.

  31. #31 Olaf Davis
    July 13, 2008

    #26: “Hmm. If PZ thinks they’re fake e-mails, why is he bothering to post them? I’m not saying he shouldn’t, I’m just curious.”

    The emails aren’t fake, he just thinks the addresses are. Someone still sat down and wrote that bilge.

  32. #32 Taz
    July 13, 2008

    These could very well be fake or phished email addresses (I think you can count on it for the first one).

    In which case the IT people at 1800Flowers will want to know about it. You may also be giving these people too much credit. They may be too stupid to realize that a threat sent via email is not anonymous.

  33. #33 me
    July 13, 2008

    Received: from 1800flowers.int (mail2.800-flowers.net [205.153.87.31]) by mtain-a.tc.umn.edu (UMN smtpd) with ESMTP for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 08:08:01 -0500 (CDT)

    UMN’s mail server identified the source as 800-flowers.net

    Domain Name: 800-FLOWERS.NET
    
    Registrant:
            1-800-FLOWERS.COM, INC.
            Domain Administrator
            One Old Country Road, Suite 500
            Carle Place, NY 11514
            US
            domainadmin@1800flowers.com
            +1.5162376000  Fax: +1.5162376101
    
  34. #34 Tsugradstudent
    July 13, 2008

    I fully support you putting this information out. I certainly hope that the poster from 1800 Flowers has had his email stolen. Otherwise, I wouldn’t want to be in the office once HR gets through. Good Luck!

  35. #35 Matt Penfold
    July 13, 2008

    With regards the first email, the IP address 205.153.87.31 resolves to mail2.800-flowers.net. The IP addresses that begin with 10. are internal addresses and are only of use for working out from where within a network an e-mail originated.

    It is easy to put in a false email address as the originator, but quite a bit harder to fake the servers an e-mail passes through. Either the author of that e-mail is good at spamming or he (and I suspect it is a he for no other reason women tend not to be so aggressive) or they really do have access to an e-mail account with 800-flowers.net

    Also the disclaimer at the bottom indicates it may well come from a genuine account. Given what the e-mail indicates about the intelligence level of the author I would be surprised if they would have thought to add that.

  36. #36 shiftysquid
    July 13, 2008

    JRY wrote: And on another note, please tell me that the mkroll@1800FLOWERS.com addy was spoofed.

    I wouldn’t think so. Looks like the IP address is registered to 1-800-Flowers as well. It appears this guy is sending violent threats from a work computer, using his work email address. Not smart.

    205.153.87.31 – Geo Information
    IP address 205.153.87.31
    Host mail2.800-flowers.net
    Location US US, United States
    City Westbury, NY 11590
    Organization 1-800-FLOWERS
    ISP 1-800-FLOWERS

  37. #37 Marcus Ranum
    July 13, 2008

    1-800-flowers’ human resources department can be reached at:
    careers@1800flowers.com
    - or -
    One Old Country Road
    Suite 500
    Carle Place, NY 11514

  38. #38 Ghost of Minnesota
    July 13, 2008

    And we will know they are Christians by their love, by their love. Yes we will know they are Christians by their love.

  39. #39 PZ Myers
    July 13, 2008

    Yeah, I’m getting a LOT of email right now. Most of it is friendly, and I apologize for not replying, but…I can’t answer a thousand messages of support every day. Most of the negative messages are of the “I will pray for you” sort, some are of the indirectly hostile sort (“I’m a marine and I can break people in half like toothpicks”), and a very few get very, very nasty — for some reason, several have launched into profane tirades against my mother — do Catholics have mommy issues or something?

    I am most creeped out, though, by the way a majority express the same hypocritical sentiment: they are defending what they hold sacred in angry terms, and at the same time telling me I have to deface what Muslims hold sacred. It isn’t the principle of protecting the holy at all…it’s a selfish demand that their petty icons be held exceptionally sacrosanct.

    I’ve been deleting almost all of the hate mail as it comes in, and I was just thinking that maybe I should salt some of the more threatening ones away in a public place. So that’s why you’re seeing this. I’m also thinking it may deter some of the real crazies out there.

  40. #40 Capital Dan
    July 13, 2008

    Wow. That irrational guy from 1-800Flowers.com doesn’t sound like any sort of company I would want to ever do business with.

    I still stand by my belief that a great many religious people should be institutionalized for this sickness. This is the “morality” which religion promotes, but it is dangerous, vile and petty, and not moral in the least. You simply have to stop and scratch your head over how people can become so irreparably damaged as this. It makes no sense.

    I agree with this new policy, PZ. These lunatics need to see the light of day, and people do need to be aware of these dangerous zealots whose minds and faith are so weak that violence is their only way of defending their grip on irrational things.

    I hate these people. They bring nothing but fear and madness to the world.

  41. #41 Hank Roberts
    July 13, 2008

    When posting, if there’s any doubt about the ‘From’ being forged (which is very common and easy and done to attract trouble to innocent people, ‘joe job’ attacks), that can be omitted while leaving the rest of the header information.

    Other header information will be entirely usable for anyone seriously curious about the origin, and yet impenetrable for the kind of occasional nitwit apt to trust ‘From’ and attack that.

    E.g.:

    Received-Spf: neutral (google.com: 134.84.119.205 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of mkroll@1800flowers.com) client-ip=134.84.119.205;
    Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 134.84.119.205 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of mkroll@1800flowers.com) smtp.mail=mkroll@1800flowers.com
    X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] mail2.800-flowers.net [205.153.87.31] #+HN+NR+OF (I,-)

  42. #42 John
    July 13, 2008

    Too often, I’m shocked at the relationship between unmitigated hatred and fundamentalism. I’m sorry you have to deal with this PZ. I heartily support your policy of making these email public.

  43. #43 molecanthro
    July 13, 2008

    i googled smonte19…if you do the same you’ll see that this guy has posted other lovely comments like:
    “Geez no wonder I depise most women now”
    “Just got back from lunch break,and in more than on place I saw “666″ perfectly painted in red on the sidewalk in circular fashion. Well I always knew this town was close to the gates of hell, but I guess the diabolicals are trying to make themselves obvious. I highly doubt anyone here would notice them, cant wait to get a job in the suburbs. Credo un Deum”
    “Christians and Muslims DO NOT WORSHIP THE SAME GOD… Muslims deny Christ’s divinity and the Holy Trinity. People who convert from Islam can be killed according to their holy texts. I’ll believe Islam is tolerant when they’re church’s in Saudia Arabia ”

    so it’s a real addy!
    and the guy’s a freakin wanker.
    this is the best one
    http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-D1YV2Lshc6f3nv6N3j6b?bid=535&yy=2008&mm=5
    so PZ, you’re not the only one getting hate mail from this sad, pathetic little man.

  44. #44 Kobra
    July 13, 2008

    #39:

    You’re STILL getting a crapton of email? Wow.

  45. #45 Chris Riley
    July 13, 2008

    The first posters email was mkroll@1800flowers.com

    I wonder if 1-800-Flowers, a large company, knows that one of it’s employees is sending hate-speech e-mails to college professors.

    I called their customer support number, but thats mainly for transactions. The nice woman gave me their corporate number (516-237-6000) and said that that would be the number to call. I imagine it’s only available during business hours.

    She also said that using the customer support feedback tool would have the message routed correctly.

    To Contact the Board of 1800Flowers http://investor.1800flowers.com/contactBoard.cfm

    Normal Email
    http://ww22.1800flowers.com/serviceform.do

    If you speak/email, be civil and be courteous. Let them know that you are very offended by the hate speak by a 1800Flowers employee and that the action strongly affects your decision to use the companies services in the future.

    Be sure to let them know that the user was ‘mkroll@1800flowers.com’, and that the email was sent from within 1800Flowers network. They sent the e-mail while at work, or through a VPN routing through the network.

  46. #46 Geral
    July 13, 2008

    These may be fake addresses but they’re both written by utter morons.

    Paul,

    what I would like to know is how did you even
    get a job at a collage.

    when you are obviously a moron.
    How would you feel if nice folks starting ranting against
    Fags, and atheist like yourself.

    well sir, you don’t get to blaspheme and walk away from this.
    You have two choices my fucked up friend, first you can quit your job for the good of the
    children. Or you can get your brains beat in.

    I give you till the first of the month, get that resignation in cunt

    Nice job genius. Either you’re entering high school or you’re flexing that collage education. If theres one thing I noticed about reading the scriptures, it’s that Jesus would of beat someone who desecrated his bread with a bat.

    Oh wait.

    Fucking hypocrites.

  47. #47 Joe Max
    July 13, 2008

    That first one might be traceable back to the perp’s employer. It not only has the e-mail addy header of the “1-800-FLOWERS” email system, it includes the disclaimer tag at the end. That’s a common text used by corporate e-mail systems for internally generated e-mail. Someone hacking into a header to conceal the source usually wouldn’t bother with tracking down the disclaimer text and pasting it in to the body of the message – all they care about is masking their identity.

    This idiot may have actually been stupid enough to use his work e-mail to send you a threat.

    And since the guy sent the e-mail to your university .edu address, you could probably get your IT department at the school to help you track this guy down. The university I work for certainly has policies about such traffic entering their system.

    The first step is a letter to the 1-800-FLOWERS corporate headquarters, preferably on a lawyer’s letterhead. Corporate bosses take such things as death-threat e-mails going out from their systems very seriously indeed, because they might be found liable if they don’t. You could at the very least get him fired from his job, which is a delicious irony considering his threat to you.

  48. #48 Matt Penfold
    July 13, 2008

    “Otherwise, I wouldn’t want to be in the office once HR gets through. Good Luck!”

    I somehow expect the author of that e-mail would not be in the office any longer either.

  49. #49 pradeep
    July 13, 2008

    We were talking about your security situation after dropping you off at the hotel last night. I think you should be a little wary of some of these threats. All it takes is some little religious nut with a real violent streak to do some real harm to you. Stay safe.

  50. #50 jackalopemonger
    July 13, 2008

    #15: Yeah, PZ Myers is the REAL bad guy here. Thanks for enlightening us. I’m guessing he had a friend of his write up all the other hate-filled emails he’s received over the past few days. And the Catholics who’ve responded in the forums haven’t been concealing their identity and engaging in sock puppetry at all. These atheist bloggers, you just can’t trust them.

  51. #51 MM
    July 13, 2008

    I sent a note over to 1-800-flowers asking if mkroll is real, and asking if they endorse his/her message. The email header (not the address, but all the routing details) sure makes it look like that message originated on the inside of 1-800-flower’s firewall.

  52. #52 ZombieHorde
    July 13, 2008

    “get that resignation in cunt”

    This line is fantastic. Not only are you to write a resignation, you are commanded to insert it into a woman’s vagina. Truly, a great mind at work.

    Best wishes-
    zombiehorde

  53. #53 Chris Riley
    July 13, 2008

    There is a 99% chance that the 1800Flowers address is legit. Occam’s Razor, people.

    What’s more likely.

    1) An employee sends an email from work.

    2) A clever hacker finds a way to intelligently hijack a random person from 1-800-Flowers’s e-mail, and then send badly worded, anti-atheist hate speak while spoofing several layers of corporate networking (or sending the email through the actual corporate servers).

    There’s just no real way that someone managed to spoof the headers on that e-mail like that. It’s legit. He should be fired, and could face charges if Mr. Meyers really wanted.

  54. #54 Matt Penfold
    July 13, 2008

    PZ said:

    “…for some reason, several have launched into profane tirades against my mother — do Catholics have mommy issues or something?”

    I think the veneration they give Jesus’ mother might be a clue. I think some Catholics have issues dealing with the fact their real mothers are not actually virgins.

  55. #55 Muffin
    July 13, 2008

    “what I would like to know is how did you even get a job at a collage”

    A collage? Is that like Bovine University?

  56. #56 Marcus Ranum
    July 13, 2008

    I love the irony of where “Serge Savard”
    (I assume that’s a fake name and it’s not really the famous drunk-driving ex general-manager of the Montreal Canadiens) AKA
    (smonte19@hotmail.com) is complaining about islam being intolerant here:
    http://www.pittnews.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticleComments&ustory_id=0172f76c-9e00-41d1-9673-b7480a6ae8be

    “Once again another attempt to white wash a religion which has historically been spread by force. Their prophet himself was a military commander, I challenge anyone to deny this fact. Christians and Muslims DO NOT WORSHIP THE SAME GOD… Muslims deny Christ’s divinity and the Holy Trinity. People who convert from Islam can be killed according to their holy texts. I’ll believe Islam is tolerant when they’re church’s in Saudia Arabia”

    What a retard. Looks like some punk is hiding behind a fake identity. Liars for jebus!

  57. #57 kevin
    July 13, 2008

    Some of you people are really cunty. Do you really think the 1800Flowers guy’s threat was serious? You’re trying to ruin somebody’s livelihood because they sent an obscene email that in itself has ZERO real-life repercussions. Grow up and chill out.

    But it would be pretty funny if he did get fired. Nevermind, I guess.

    /hates catholics

  58. #58 Mike Pack
    July 13, 2008

    Who wants to give 1800 flowers a call? If it’s not one of their PC’s, which I doubt, then they’ll want to launch their own investigation to find out who’s hijacked it. But like I said, I doubt it’s not one of theirs, the footer is clearly from one of their official email templates. What a moron. I’m sure if they had 100 people or so call and complain about this guy, he’d get canned right quick.

  59. #59 Friso
    July 13, 2008

    Well, for what it’s worth I sent a complain to careers@1800flowers.com. I hope it does some good.

    Stay safe, professor. This blog is a voice of reason in a cacophony of idiots.

  60. #60 Katharine
    July 13, 2008

    Kevin -

    They used THEIR COMPANY’S EMAIL to send PZ a DEATH THREAT.

    Some death threats get acted on.

    DUDE, WTF.

  61. #61 Flonkbob
    July 13, 2008

    I’m sad there were only two to play with.

  62. #62 Brandon
    July 13, 2008

    Wow. I disagree with the Professor’s opinions regarding my faith, but the jerks sending hate mail like that to him have no idea what actual Christianity/Catholicism is about.

    I completely support your decision to post, with complete headers, mail like this. These individuals should be penalized by civil authorities for these threats and, assuming they actually are Catholic and not posers, they really should open their catechism and discover what their church actually proclaims.

    I’m sorry that people can be so full of hate and it disturbs me greatly that they make folks who are honest-to-God trying to live their faith in the manner that it is supposed to be lived (in love) seem like idiots-by-association.

    I admit, if all of the people who called themselves followers of Christ actually followed his teachings, the world would be a better place. I do hope that people out there realize that this behavior isn’t typical, or even remotely considered acceptable to Catholicism.

  63. #63 onclepsycho
    July 13, 2008

    #57

    He sent a death-threat from work. Read it, that’s an ultimatum to resign, and it involves the children. Yes, his livelihood should be ruined.

  64. #64 Capital Dan
    July 13, 2008

    Well, if that 1-800-Flowers email turns out to be from an actual employee, I hope those in charge reprimand the author and force him to write a letter of apology to Dr. Myers.

    He’s clearly unhinged, uneducated and dangerous.

  65. #65 mayhempix
    July 13, 2008

    Looks like there will no going away flowers from the boss for mkroll…

    Let’s hope he is reading this thread. The paranoia of impending doom coupled with the adrenaline rush of fear could cause him to recycle today’s meals all over the floor.

  66. #66 Matt Penfold
    July 13, 2008

    Kevin,

    Well the author of the first e-mail certainly does appear to be serious. I am having a hard job to pick up any indication that it was said in jest. Of course the chances are he is just full of bile and has no intention of actually carrying out a threat. I am not sure how that excuses his making death threats using his companies e-mail system.

    Could you enlighten me as to how that is acceptable behaviour ?

  67. #67 arensb
    July 13, 2008

    Richard Harris @#6:

    Do they, at some level, realize that their religion is just a made-up pile of stinking crap?

    I think so. One thing that hasn’t been emphasized enough IMHO is that at no point in this whole sordid affair has anyone offered any evidence that a blessed eucharist is anything more than a piece of bread.

    (I’d love to see a Randi challenge-type of setup: one person collects 50 hosts, labels them A1-A50, gets 25 of them sanctified, and records which ones are sanctified. A second person shuffles them, and covers up the first labels with ones reading B1-B50. A committee of priests and theologians then has to determine which ones are the most precious Body of Christ, and which ones are just biscuits.)

    I won’t defend PZ for intentionally pissing people off. However, it seems that the offended Catholics a) have an unsubstantiated opinion that the bread in question is a god, b) want their opinion respected, and c) threaten reprisals against people who point out that their opinion is bollocks.

  68. #68 MH
    July 13, 2008

    The second email seems to be from a Steve Montemurro, a proudly conservative Catholic. He sounds mentally ill. PZ, I hope you are forwarding these emails on to the police?

  69. #69 themadlolscientist, FCD
    July 13, 2008

    I looked up IP address 205.153.87.31 on DomainTools Whois and got the following, which certainly looks real to me:
    _________________________________________

    OrgName: 1-800-FLOWERS
    OrgID: 1800FL
    Address: 1600 Stewart Ave
    City: Westbury
    StateProv: NY
    PostalCode: 11590
    Country: US

    NetRange: 205.153.84.0 – 205.153.87.255
    CIDR: 205.153.84.0/22
    NetName: FLOWERS-2
    NetHandle: NET-205-153-84-0-1
    Parent: NET-205-0-0-0-0
    NetType: Direct Assignment
    NameServer: NS1.1800FLOWERS.COM
    NameServer: NS2.1800FLOWERS.COM
    NameServer: NS3.1800FLOWERS.COM
    NameServer: NS4.1800FLOWERS.COM
    NameServer: NS5.1800FLOWERS.COM
    NameServer: NS6.1800FLOWERS.COM
    Comment: Reverse DNS lookup for eshare.1800flowers.com
    RegDate: 1995-05-19
    Updated: 2002-11-21

    RTechHandle: VSU-ARIN
    RTechName: Subramainan, Vivekanandan
    RTechPhone: +1-516-237-4679
    RTechEmail:

    OrgAbuseHandle: RRE4-ARIN
    OrgAbuseName: Reid, Robert
    OrgAbusePhone: +1-516-237-4010
    OrgAbuseEmail: rreid@1800FLOWERS.com

    OrgNOCHandle: BI26-ARIN
    OrgNOCName: Ingram, Bill
    OrgNOCPhone: +1-516-237-4718
    OrgNOCEmail:

    OrgTechHandle: VSU-ARIN
    OrgTechName: Subramainan, Vivekanandan
    OrgTechPhone: +1-516-237-4679
    OrgTechEmail:
    _________________________________________

    Looks like “kroll” is cooked……..

  70. #70 MAJeff, OM
    July 13, 2008

    shorter kevin:
    threatening death to a person=ridiculing belief in a magic cracker

  71. #71 Rick
    July 13, 2008

    My first thought is that the 1-800 flowers address is fake; it creates great irony to send a death threat from a flower delivery company.

  72. #72 epsilon
    July 13, 2008

    “Let’s hope he is reading this thread. The paranoia of impending doom coupled with the adrenaline rush of fear could cause him to recycle today’s meals all over the floor.”

    Oh man, I hope so. I can see him sitting there right now saying “Oh shit, oh shit, oh shit,…”

  73. #73 slang
    July 13, 2008

    Did you enjoy work at 1800flowers, kevin? :P

    PZ, will you let us know if our sending positive feedback to your university president had any effect, good or bad? Thanks.

  74. #74 TSC
    July 13, 2008

    Alert: Tardensity levels are overflowing…

  75. #75 Kevin
    July 13, 2008

    While I despise religion and religious people just as much as the next guy, I guess I can sympathize with his vitriol. I often make vulgar threats at the slightest provocation with no intention of acting on them. If every old lady in traffic I flipped off and threatened to sodomize with my foot pressed charges against me I’d be in a world of shit.

    Anyway, I associate this kind of bitter vengeance with the Bill Donahues of the world, not smart people.

  76. #76 matt@dandderwen.co.uk
    July 13, 2008

    “Let’s hope he is reading this thread. The paranoia of impending doom coupled with the adrenaline rush of fear could cause him to recycle today’s meals all over the floor.”

    I have this image of his rushing into to work, firing up his PC and deleting the e-mail from his outbox thinking that will mean it cannot be traced back to him,

  77. #77 E.V.
    July 13, 2008

    “…desecrate his bread with a bat.”

    What an intriguing idea…

  78. #78 David Lee
    July 13, 2008

    Jebus, PZ. I’d better come up and interview you before Christian love gets you.

  79. #79 epsilon
    July 13, 2008

    I think that’s better than my scenario.

  80. #80 epsilon
    July 13, 2008

    Dammit, when referencing another’s thread, it usually helps to include a quote. #79 was referring to matt in #76. I’ll get the hang of this one of these days.

  81. #81 Kristine
    July 13, 2008

    what I would like to know is how did you even
    get a job at a collage.

    We went to an art opening last night and I’d like to know how you got a job at a “collage,” too! ;-)

    I’ve been thinking of making a collage out of the religious crap that people send us. Humor is mightier than the sword (or the religious pen).

    So is exposure. Keep airing those cowards’ e-mails. And Kevin, don’t go throwing around the word “cunty” like some little kid until you know what it means.

  82. #82 MH
    July 13, 2008

    I should point out that there seem to be two Steve Montemurros that Google is picking up on. One is an IT guy in Meriden CT, the other is a retarded Catholic from Hastings-on-Hudson, NY.

  83. #83 JD
    July 13, 2008

    I agree with CR (#53) the headers from the first email do look legit and that it was most likely sent by an illiterate and unsavvy computer user. My sources also confirm the email ip addy was located in Westbury, NY with a lat-long of 40.7570 by -73.5814.

    1-800-Flowers: “We’ll send flowers for any occasion, including death threats and pogroms.”

  84. #84 Capital Dan
    July 13, 2008

    Let’s hope he is reading this thread. The paranoia of impending doom coupled with the adrenaline rush of fear could cause him to recycle today’s meals all over the floor.

    Posted by: mayhempix

    Could make for a rather sweaty, uncomfortable Monday for this person. Which, considering the guy is such a maniac, puts a really nice smile on my face.

    The thing is, Pharynguloids, you are making the assertion that someone who is crazy enough to write a threatening letter as a result of PZ’s criticism of a cracker is also somehow smart or lucid enough to hack into someone’s 1800flowers corporate email.

    I mean, it’s possible, but very unlikely.

  85. #85 Denis Loubet
    July 13, 2008

    Obviously, they’ve been cherry-picking the bible, and their favorite bit is the action-adventure scene where Jesus goes after the moneychangers in the temple with a scourge.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scourge

    Nice.

    None of that “turn the other cheek” shit for them!

  86. #87 MM
    July 13, 2008

    #75: “While I despise religion and religious people just as much as the next guy, I guess I can sympathize with his vitriol. I often make vulgar threats at the slightest provocation with no intention of acting on them. If every old lady in traffic I flipped off and threatened to sodomize with my foot pressed charges against me I’d be in a world of shit.

    Anyway, I associate this kind of bitter vengeance with the Bill Donahues of the world, not smart people.”

    But you don’t take the trouble to contact that little old lady directly to inform her of your wish to put your foot in her . You express your wishes in the relative privacy and obscurity of your own car. The little old lady presumably never knows what evil lurks (momentarily) in the heart of Kevin.

    mkroll, on the other hand, took the time to contact PZ directly and made specific threats. This isn’t just some twerp jumping into the comments to say “PZ is a doodyhead and I hope the Magic Sky Fairy smites is wicked head!”

  87. #88 Brian
    July 13, 2008

    By the header information, it is pretty clear that the 1800flowers.com email originated from within their IP space. A someone who has worked in the information security field investigating these types of incidents for more than 8 years, the headers look proper and worth sending to them along with the note that you reserve the right to turn it over to law enforcement.

    They should be able to determine who sent it internally, regardless of whether the email address was forged or not. The last thing any legitimate business wants are threatening emails, which are criminal, being sent out by their employees because it puts their entire business in jeopardy. If something like this were to head toward a trial, their entire archive of documents/emails/etc would be subject to discovery orders.

  88. #89 BG
    July 13, 2008

    “Steve Montemurro” seems to be a rather conservative catholic as well, so it sort of fits.

    here he is talking about getting latin mass back:

    http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070706/NEWS/707060432/-1/SPECIAL13

  89. #90 Phaedron Rising
    July 13, 2008

    re: fwd: your short life
    1 message
    Oren David Nimelman Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 5:55 PM
    To: mkroll@1800flowers.com
    Dear Mr. Kroll:

    You seem offended by Dr Myers’ remarks regarding the eucharist. I can’t say I’m surprised. What he said was blasphemous and – yeah – offensive to those who follow the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church. In calling him a fag and an atheist, you were right on one count: while Dr. Myers is not a believer in god, or any similar religious entity, he is, in fact, a married, straight man.

    Even if he weren’t, I’d disagree with you on one key point:

    well sir, you don’t get to blaspheme and walk away from this.

    Actually, good sir, he does. You love in America, a country borne of a blasphemy of its own: that the word of a king does not equate to the will of a god. That’s why your founding fathers enshrined in your constitution and bill of rights the freedom to hold whatever belief you choose regarding religion. That includes holding none at all. As long as noperson is harmed, that right is inviolable. Nowhere in the constitution is the definition of a “person” extended to include a communion wafer. I don’t even live in the United States, but this much I do know about your laws.

    Well, that, and one other thing: threats of bodily harm or death are not covered as free speech under U.S. law. They’re treated seriously, and can result in a jail term and/or thousands of dollars in fines.

    You have two choices my fucked up friend, first you can quit your job for the good of the

    children. Or you can get your brains beat in.

    I give you till the first of the month, get that resignation in cunt

    Anyway, here are a few liberties I’m taking:

    1) After I finish this email, my next one is to 1800Flowers.com. I’m not sure what their network use policies are, but they probably don’t look too kindly on using company networks for personal reasons. The certainly don’t if those personal reasons include issuing death threats and other fun felonies.

    2) I’m asking everybody that I know to do the same.

    3) I’m contacting the authorities in both New York state and Minnesota. They can probably handle this better than I can.

    At this point, you seem to have a few options:

    1) Talk to your boss. See if he’ll back you up when the company starts taking heat over one of its employees sending death threats from the company’s network.

    2) Call a lawyer. You might want one if you get fired or arrested.

    3) Send an apology to Professor Myers, explaining that while you don’t condone his comments on the communion wafer, or Catholic doctrine in general, you recognize that in America, he has the right to be as offensive or repugnant as he wants as long as he doesn’t threaten the safety of another person in doing so.

    Personally, I’d suggest door number three.

    Sincerely,
    Phaedron Rising [name redacted]

  90. #91 Kathryn
    July 13, 2008

    @57: The way I see it, the moment you make a threat you deserve whatever consequences arise.

  91. #92 Kevin
    July 13, 2008

    81) Oh please, I’ve been bandying “cunty” around town since I was three years old. You obviously never met my mother.

  92. #93 Holbach
    July 13, 2008

    Since I am a no-holds barred atheist and apply the same method in dealing with cretins whom I deign to be dangerous, then upon receiving an e-mail threatening me with bodily harm or even death, I will copy that e-mail, and then send one to the sender urging him to act on that threat if he has the guts, and be ever vigilant if he is stupid or insane enough to follow through. So if I happen to be outside and he gives me indication that he was the one that sent the threat, and he makes a move to his belt or pocket in a way that I sense is his avowed act of harm against me then I will fell him with one sure shot, and legally plead self-defence with his copied threat to serve as the legal qualifier for my self-protection. His imaginary god will not have served him in his moment of dire need, nor will he ever know of this failure as his death negates all his belief in nothing. How ironic that he could not get his god to smite me down, but has to apply his human methods instead.

  93. #94 Marcus Ranum
    July 13, 2008

    kevin writes:
    Some of you people are really cunty.

    “Cunty”?? Is that the best you can do?? With the tremendous flexibility English offers for invective, that’s just pathetic!

  94. #95 Stwriley
    July 13, 2008

    I second Joe @#47.

    He’s right PZ, turn this over to the University’s techs, they’ll track this guy down easily enough if the address is legit or rule him out just as easily if this really is someone technically sophisticated enough to bounce the email off of 1800flowers.com’s server (and then maybe be able to get some idea of where it did come from if so.) Either way, they have the resources and know-how to do the job. A good friend does this kind of work commercially (he administers large secure email systems) and I’ve had him track down phishers this way for me (and they’re very technically sophisticated.)

    Letting them do it also means that the law takes over, as it should. Criticism (however rude and wrong) is one thing, but direct threats or use of coercive violence is beyond the pale and must be dealt with by the authorities.

  95. #96 Richard
    July 13, 2008

    You are a scumbag, may your insides rot, may your neck be snapped by an iron boot against a curb, I hope
    for a world without liberals, we can start with you

    Making the world a better place one message at a time.

    The world certainly does seem a little bit better after reading that lovely email.

  96. #97 Phaedron Rising
    July 13, 2008

    The copy and paste missed the quotation formatting. If it looks like I’m demanding Mr. Kroll’s resignation on pain of a beating, or accusing him (in some Kafka-turned universe) of blasheming, that’s just lost quotations.

  97. #98 SC
    July 13, 2008

    I often make vulgar threats at the slightest provocation with no intention of acting on them. If every old lady in traffic I flipped off and threatened to sodomize with my foot pressed charges against me I’d be in a world of shit.

    You sound like a real prize, Kevin.

  98. #99 baz
    July 13, 2008

    I just had to laugh when I got to the bottom of the first one… “This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or
    proprietary information…” Yeah dude, and a whole lot more!

  99. #100 Mike
    July 13, 2008

    do Catholics have mommy issues or something?
    Well, er… yes.

  100. #101 E.V.
    July 13, 2008

    “81) Oh please, I’ve been bandying “cunty” around town since I was three years old. You obviously never met my mother.”
    (too easy)
    Actually, many of us have, son.

  101. #102 Fez
    July 13, 2008

    Brandon@62

    While you and I sit on opposite sides of the theological debate, I’d like to thank you for taking the time to speak out against the radicalized membership of your community. If you feel your faith and participation make you a better person I for one certainly would not begrudge you that.

    Even on the off chance your public denouncement is selfishly motivated I still applaud your words and would encourage you to spread that message amongst your peers.

  102. #103 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    The relevant information is the ip address in brackets in the X-Originating-Ip field. That’s the ip address of the person who sent it. Turn those numbers over to law enforcement.

  103. #104 True Bob
    July 13, 2008

    In fact, Kevin, we’ve all prayed with your Mom. Together.

  104. #105 Bostonian
    July 13, 2008

    Check out the headers on the 1800flowers.com e-mail. It’s legit, not a borrowed address. The first couple “Received” lines are at the university, then you see the entries for the 1800flowers.com internal mail servers. I’d wager this is really an employee using company e-mail to send threats. So don’t spam the idiot. Get him fired.

  105. #106 kevin
    July 13, 2008

    94) Criticism noted. From now on I will strive to be more high-brow with my misogynistic epithets. How’s “Senorita Vaginahead”?

  106. #107 Shaden Freud
    July 13, 2008

    #43, #68

    Damn, Steve Montemurro is like the Larry Fafarman of hate.

  107. #108 Vernon Balbert
    July 13, 2008

    Based on what I’ve been reading (and I’ve been known to accurately track e-mail address on occasion) it seems that the letter from 1-800-Flowers is legitimately from that company. This being the case, this guy is likely going to get fired. I sincerely hope he does.

    There’s just one little thing that worries me. This guy is going to blame PZ for getting fired. This might have some unpleasant repercussions. The phrase “going postal” became cliche for a reason. PZ, please report this idiot to his company, but also report this, as well as any other threatening letters to the FBI.

  108. #109 Jason
    July 13, 2008

    From what I have read, the first example seems to be real. But irregardless, I think that 1800flowers owes you an apology.
    I will not forgive this company unless I hear that they have done the right thing regarding this situation.

  109. #110 JayD
    July 13, 2008

    I miswrote my above post, so let me ask my question again, this time more clearly:

    If PZ thinks the e-mail addresses are fake, why is he bothering to post them?

  110. #111 The Physicist
    July 13, 2008

    PZ, I am Catholic and I sent your President a cc to you asking him not to fire you. I really could care less about people who call themselves Christians and make death threats against anyone. But you won’t publish my email that you received (and how many others?), and if you decide to, you can include my name, but not my address, some of the people here also like to make death threats, or send me porn stuff, and junk up my email box with porn.

    Just because they want to make me mad, and they never understand they just make me sad. I have added my blog address for anyone who is interested in a part of who I am, I could never show who all I am, and neither can you, this is why the PC world makes me mad.

  111. #112 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    You can contact 1-800-FLOWERS and tell them mkroll was abusing his account privileges by sending violent threats from his email address on their system.

    The second one maps to Yonder, NY, and Optimum Online (Cablevision Systems). You can contact them too about the abuse.

  112. #113 Fez
    July 13, 2008

    The second message originated from IP 69.119.180.20 , which would appear to be that of an Optimum Online (aka Cablevision Systems) customer probably located in New York:

    [...]
    11 rtr4-tg10-1.wan.whplny.cv.net (64.15.0.54) 206.250 ms 57.290 ms 214.094 ms
    12 64.15.8.122 (64.15.8.122) 14.716 ms 15.580 ms 15.269 ms
    13 ool-4353e80e.dyn.optonline.net (67.83.232.14) 16.486 ms 16.571 ms 16.219 ms
    14 ubr101-ge1-0-0.cmts.ynkrny.cv.net (67.83.232.45) 16.488 ms 15.877 ms 15.720 ms

    YNKR .. Yonkers?

  113. #114 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    That’s Yonkers, NY.

  114. #115 JND
    July 13, 2008

    @ comment 69, I wouldn’t put a great deal of trust in that website you linked to, I went to it and its information on “my ip address” regarding my own location was wrong. It got that I was in the UK, but it placed me on the other side of the country. I’m no computer whiz, I can assure you I wouldn’t know how to disguise my IP, the website was just plain wrong.

    Also, I would really like to discourage anyone from emailing these cretins or engaging in the kind of threatening gutter tactics that they have used.

  115. #116 sil-chan
    July 13, 2008

    Just so everyone knows, 1-800-flowers has free e-mail. If you go to their website, they have a sign up at the bottom right hand corner of the site. This means that person probably does not work for 1-800-flowers.

  116. #117 E.V.
    July 13, 2008

    Kevin should get the dungeon on lameness alone.

  117. #118 Vidar
    July 13, 2008

    This confirms that we live in a fucked up world. When someone gets deaththreats over an opinion of a cracker, you know that something is very, very wrong.
    Waht a bunch of religious fruits.

  118. #119 The Adamant Atheist
    July 13, 2008

    “I really could care less about people who call themselves Christians and make death threats against anyone.”

    How do you know they’re wrong? When your worldview is based on faith, you can’t credibly dispute anyone else’s faith. See the hazards of belief without evidence?

  119. #120 JayD
    July 13, 2008

    I’d wager this is really an employee using company e-mail to send threats. So don’t spam the idiot. Get him fired.
    Oh, the irony would be delicious.

  120. #121 George E. Martin
    July 13, 2008

    Anyone sending such an email as the first from a company system is probably too stupid to forge “mkroll@1800FLOWERS.com”, something much to easy to do. It could have been someone using the mkroll account from an unlock system, so mkroll would likely have something to answer to anyway.

    One the second email way at the bottom there is this added header:

    X-Originating-Ip: [69.119.180.20]

    This was very likely added by hotmail. If so then the connection to hotmail was via this ISP:

    CustName: Optimum Online (Cablevision Systems)
    Address: 111 New South Road
    City: Hicksville
    StateProv: NY
    PostalCode: 11801
    Country: US
    RegDate: 2005-11-30
    Updated: 2005-11-30

    NetRange: 69.119.176.0 – 69.119.191.255
    CIDR: 69.119.176.0/20

    That does seem to fit with a “Steve Montemurro” from New York.

    George

  121. #122 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    Goddamn people are stupid. If you’re going to send threatening emails, at least set up an anonymous account on Gmail or Hotmail. That 800 Flowers guy probably used his employee email address.

  122. #123 PuckishOne
    July 13, 2008

    Jay: Because PZ is a biologist, not a computer scientist. Several commenters (who are either computer scientists or knowledgeable laymen) have since posted a number of indications that the 1-800-Flowers e-mail is likely to be genuine. If I received whackjob e-mails like that I’d want to consult my geekier friends to find out what steps to take next – and that’s what’s going on here.

  123. #124 kevin
    July 13, 2008

    117, because “your mama” jokes are the epitome of cool.

  124. #125 Rick
    July 13, 2008

    re: comment 116: I think that is merely to register to receive their emails, not create an e-mail account

  125. #126 MH
    July 13, 2008

    Kevin asked “How’s “Senorita Vaginahead”?”

    That would be the wife of Biggus Dickus?

  126. #127 Joergen Geerds
    July 13, 2008

    Both email threats come from NY, 1800flowers is in Carleplace, NY and smonte19 IP originates in Yonkers, NY. I am ashamed that fellow New Yorkers would send crap like that. I would easily expected those coming from the bible belt, but NY? I would be curious to see some data-mining on the emails before you delete them, and map the originating IP to their real locations and put them on a map.

  127. #128 arensb
    July 13, 2008

    If I may offer some unsolicited advice, I’d recommend that PZ contact the IT departments of the hosts that these messages went through, and request mail logs for these messages as soon as possible. Preferably in a form that’ll stand up in court, should the matter ever get that far. This should be done quickly, before the logs are expired and the data lost.

    As others have pointed out, it’s easy to forge email, and even easier to just write a text file and claim that it’s email that one received. Logs from multiple sites should go a long way toward establishing that the messages were really sent.

    I don’t know what the legal aspects of such a request are. I’ve been asked for mail logs in the past, but I just hand them over to the legal beagles, and they take it from there. Maybe they print the logs out and have them notarized, for all I know.

  128. #129 firemancarl
    July 13, 2008

    Yeah Kev. Met yer mum. Does she always have a 5 o’clock shadow, or was that a special occassion?

  129. #130 Cooper
    July 13, 2008

    #116,

    That signup is for you to *receive* emails from 1800flowers, not for them to give you an email account, isn’t it?

  130. #131 AlanWCan
    July 13, 2008

    Did anyone else notice the domain name in fucktard #1′s little rant?
    mkroll@1800FLOWERS.com

    1800FLOWERS.com
    You have got to be shitting me
    You’re getting death threats from a catholic fundie …florist?
    Fantastic.

    So is mister mkroll an employee? Using his work email to send threats? Hmmmm. I wonder how said employer would feel about that…
    Quick whois:

    Administrative Contact:
    1-800-FLOWERS.COM, INC.
    Domain Administrator
    One Old Country Road, Suite 500
    Carle Place, NY 11514
    US
    domainadmin@1800flowers.com
    +1.5162376000 Fax: +1.5162376101

  131. #132 Chet
    July 13, 2008

    And on another note, please tell me that the mkroll@1800FLOWERS.com addy was spoofed.

    I don’t think it was spoofed. If it was just a spoofed return field, it wouldn’t have the legal boilerplate copyright notice at the end; that means the message had to actually pass through the 1800flowers mail server.

    I think it’s really from that address.

  132. #133 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    Well, mkroll@1800flowers.com is a real address. I just sent an email to it and got this auto-reply:

    Melanie Kroll

    I will be out of the office Friday July 4 and will return on Monday July 14. I will respond to you then. Have a fabulous weekend.

  133. #134 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    Since she’s out of the office, a violent threat like that doesn’t sound like something that a woman would send anyway, it’s possible someone else used her account to send it. They can be tracked down either way (maybe her husband?).

  134. #135 David Marjanovi?, OM
    July 13, 2008

    Historical Critical Method v. Blind Faith in the Prof.

    You decide!

    Principle of Parsimony. Any day of the week, and twice on Sundays.

    Do you always stop thinking after three seconds?

  135. #136 Amplexus
    July 13, 2008

    I have a job at a collage. Long hours, many papercuts, endless stacks of construction paper… but I get all the paste I can eat.

  136. #137 slang
    July 13, 2008

    Melanie?
    MELANIE?! lol. thretnin, ur doin it rong!

  137. #138 harebell
    July 13, 2008

    You have my support.
    I wrote a supporting note to your boss and I wrote a post highlighting this totally unacceptable behaviour exhibited by the fundies on my blog.
    Has the mouthpiece of the catholic league come out and condemned these threats yet? Probably not because he and the league operate through bullying.
    Take care and mind out for all that xtian love they constantly talk about.

  138. #139 John C. Randolph
    July 13, 2008

    For all the superstitious claptrap in the bible, there are nevertheless a few profound proverbs to be found there. One of them is “by their fruits, shall you know them”.

    The people pouring out their hatred and threats against PZ should take a good look at themselves.

    -jcr

  139. #140 Julie K
    July 13, 2008

    Looks like Melanie is about to learn important lessons in computer security.

  140. #141 E.V.
    July 13, 2008

    “117, because “your mama” jokes are the epitome of cool.”
    No, because of your “Senorita Vaginahead” riposte. Sad, -truly sad, Kevin.

  141. #142 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    PZ, publish those four other death threats with the headers. We’ll track them down for you and notify the relevant ISPs.

  142. #143 Ted Powell
    July 13, 2008

    A tip: The email messages become much easier to read if you use View Source.

  143. #144 Epistaxis
    July 13, 2008

    Both of these look like they were sent to his Gmail address (which is the one that’s linked on this blog). If they sent their threats directly to his morris.umn.edu address, could he still publish them here?

  144. #145 kevin
    July 13, 2008

    Well now that we know that mkroll is a girl, are you people STILL gonna call for her head on a platter? Yes, Melanie Kroll was SERIOUSLY going to PERSONALLY drive her diaper-wearing FEMALE ass cross-country and beat in PZ’s brains. Where is your compassion? You know she’s just bitter because she’s an old lesbian who was raised to hate herself. They’re a dime a dozen in the catholic faith.

  145. #146 Bobington
    July 13, 2008

    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=20202445957

    We started up an Eucharist Desecration Facebook group for anyone who wants to piss these guys off.

  146. #147 BG
    July 13, 2008

    email address smonte19@hotmail.com corrisponds to a Steve Montemurro

    X-Originating-Ip: [69.119.180.20] corrisponds to a NY ISP

    Along with the newspaper article stating mr catholic steve lives in Hastings on Hudson
    http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070706/NEWS/707060432/-1/SPECIAL13

    And trade listings for these two businesses owned by a Steve Montemurro, both in Hastings on Hudson.

    Scm Holdings Inc
    19 Nepperhan Ave
    Hastings On Hdsn, NY 10706
    Phone : (914) 478-0470

    Steves Teas Inc
    Address data
    Street: 19 Nepperhan Ave
    City: Hastings on Hudson, New York
    Postal code: 10706
    Country: United States
    Phone: +1 914 4780470
    Fax: +1 914 4780470

    google search on the phone number “914 478 0470″ turns up a lot of janitorial links as well.

  147. #148 Dluz
    July 13, 2008

    Bill Donahue must be proud of what he set into motion. I hope he gets Cc’d on all these.

  148. #149 Nix
    July 13, 2008

    Everyone recommending that PZ ask skilled techies in the IT department to track it down: PZ has been on the net for a long time, including time spent in the howling sewer that was talk.origins, and has done his geeking time as well. If he doesn’t know how to read Received: headers at least as well as a random overworked IT goon, I’ll eat my hat.

  149. #150 AdamK
    July 13, 2008

    Just for the record, priests don’t claim to be able to distinguish between magic crackers and regular crackers. Magic crackers have all the same “accidents,” i.e. discernable properties, as plain ol’ crackers. The difference is in the “substance,” which is one of those supernatural things floating around out there in the platosphere. Kinda like the opposite of the actual meaning of the word “substance.” (It’s the ghostly is-ness that “stands under” the perceptible reality of the individuated actual thingamabob. This ain’t science, people.)

    One time when I was serving mass some regular unconsecrated crackers accidentally found there way into the ciborium with the Extra-Special Jebus Crackers. The priest didn’t try to pick out which were which, just re-transubstanshified the whole mess next mass.

    So Randi-type logic isn’t going to work here. Remember that our reality here is conditional, second-class, dependent stuff, on loan from the superduper realer-than-real capital-R Reality that’s God. The reason God seems–in absofuckinlutely every way–like he doesn’t exist is that His Existence is on a Higher Plane. If you get confused, just start capitalizing shit–it always helps.

  150. #151 K. Signal Eingang
    July 13, 2008

    Either the 1800flowers.com mail really came from legitimate 1-800-FLOWERS servers, or the headers have been spoofed absolutely perfectly. In fact, in order to spoof them that well I believe you’d need to be sending the message from within Google or the U of M’s mail servers.

    That doesn’t necessarily prove that the person at that address actually wrote that email, though, the account may have been hijacked via a lost password, stolen laptop, malevolent co-worker, etc.

  151. #152 freelunch
    July 13, 2008

    #110

    E-mail addresses may be easy to fake, but it takes a level of sophistication that religious zealots, being against learning, don’t usually have to fake the headers.

  152. #153 Bobby
    July 13, 2008

    Apparently smonte19@hotmail.com gets around. A quick google search turned up what other hate mail he’s been writing.

    http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-D1YV2Lshc6f3nv6N3j6b?p=535

    Quote: “It is people like you and your evil website that I pray for God’s wrath to come down on. The entire faggot culture has hoodwinked a weak society into accepting one man sticking his dick up another man’s ass as normal behavoir. You and quite a few other corrupt “catholics” are trying to tell us that this sin crying out to heaven for vengeance is gift from God. 2000 years of Truth beg to differ”

  153. #154 Jonathan
    July 13, 2008

    You work on a collage, PZ? I thought you were a professor at a college.

  154. #155 E.V.
    July 13, 2008

    “I give you till the first of the month, get that resignation in cunt”

    Perhaps Melanie was too hurried and left out “to” and “my”.

    She may just have a strange fetish. Look out, PZ, I think this one has a secret crush on you.

  155. #156 George E Martin
    July 13, 2008

    @110

    “If PZ thinks the e-mail addresses are fake, why is he bothering to post them?”

    What PZ said was that the email header:

    From: mkroll@1800FLOWERS.com

    *COULD* be forged. What was not forged was the additional information PZ included, all of the email headers, especially the

    Received: from 1800flowers.int (mail2.800-flowers.net [205.153.87.31]) by mtain-a.tc.umn.edu (UMN smtpd) with ESMTP for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 08:08:01 -0500 (CDT)

    Received: from ([10.180.1.74]) by CPNYMAIL02.1800flowers.int with ESMTP id 5202711.34123806; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:07:31 -0400
    Return-Path:

    That is a chain of transaction handling the email.

    A lot of things are very broken if they are incorrect! That is what the other people were commenting on.

    George

  156. #157 mayhempix
    July 13, 2008

    Looks like Melanie is about to learn important lessons in computer security.
    Posted by: Julie K | July 13, 2008 6:36 PM

    Oh boy, Monday is not going to be her day.

  157. #158 BG
    July 13, 2008

    I forgot to mention Steve’s full name and birthday is:
    STEVE C MONTEMURRO Born May 1967 19 NEPPERHAN AVE
    Which matches the SCM holdings company he owns.

  158. #159 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    I sent that email, complete with headers, to abuse@1800flowers.com. Haven’t received a message saying it was undeliverable yet, so that’s probably the right place.

  159. #160 Matt
    July 13, 2008

    Christians are so loving, indeed, they are so much better than us evil atheists.

  160. #161 E.V.
    July 13, 2008

    Why do I get the feeling Kevin is actually k8?

  161. #162 MAJeff, OM
    July 13, 2008

    Posted by: JayD | July 13, 2008 6:21 PM

    Insulting a cracker=issuing a death threat….OKaaaaaaaaaaaay.

  162. #163 True Bob
    July 13, 2008

    Since I haven’t seen it mentioned, I will:

    This a super-accurate thread title. Dump indeed.

  163. #164 mayhempix
    July 13, 2008

    That troll calling itself “Kevin” is an immature egoist.
    I wonder if it also calls itself a Christian.

  164. #165 David Marjanovi?, OM
    July 13, 2008

    A tip: The email messages become much easier to read if you use View Source.

    Or PZ could insert a few line breaks that keep the text from disappearing underneath the ads at the right.

  165. #166 Andrés Diplotti
    July 13, 2008

    And we will know they are Christians by their love, by their love. Yes we will know they are Christians by their love.

    Indeed. A veritable Ministry of Love they have.

  166. #167 kevin
    July 13, 2008

    161) Did k8 express contempt for your “yo mama” jokes too? I wouldn’t cry over it, not everybody is smart enough to appreciate the sophistication and ingenuity those jokes require. Don’t worry, you’re absolutely hilarious.

  167. #168 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    Good work BG!

    BTW, I love there’s an autogenerated ad at the bottom of the second email that says “Making the world a better place one email at a time”

  168. #169 Tostitos
    July 13, 2008

    Anyone else sending Stevie a nice email about how it’s not very ‘Christ-like’ to threaten people?

  169. #170 Badger3k
    July 13, 2008

    #56 – he wants the Muslims themselves to become Churches? Now that would be transubstantiation!

    #150 – so the Jebus Magic is kinda like “Orbs” and “Rods”?

  170. #171 Glen Davidson
    July 13, 2008

    They’re nasty stupid letters, but they’re not threats.

    There’s no good reason to hype the “threats” made by, apparently, a relatively few people.

    By now I think that both PZ and a certain (probably rather small) segment of shrill Catholics are just playing up a rather boring and meaningless “controversy” for their own ends.

    Both sides should find something better to do.

    Glen D
    http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

  171. #172 Capital Dan
    July 13, 2008

    Why do I get the feeling Kevin is actually k8?

    Posted by: E.V.

    I was thinking the same thing. But, I’ve been ignoring the idiot save for when someone quotes him.

    Hopefully, ignoring the troll is something that will catch on. C’mon, people. It’s fun. Like disco.

  172. #173 AlanWCan
    July 13, 2008

    Alrighty then, I wonder if this is flowerboy’s amazon account … and it’s his birthday next week. Just something about the 5 star reviews of anything with a stars n stripes on it (despite having Celine Dion and Bon Jovi inside) makes me wonder if this is our guy.

  173. #174 E.V.
    July 13, 2008

    “Don’t worry, you’re absolutely hilarious.”
    Thanks.
    You? -not so much…

  174. #175 2-D Man
    July 13, 2008

    So there’s this guy. He goes into work one day and writes a threatening email. The following monday, he gets canned.

    What? Were you expecting a punchline?

    #94:

    kevin writes:
    Some of you people are really cunty.

    “Cunty”?? Is that the best you can do?? With the tremendous flexibility English offers for invective, that’s just pathetic!

    Why bother sticking with English?
    “Some of you people are really gauche.”
    And, for that matter, why bother sticking with any known language at all?
    “Some of you people are really blagraspric.”

  175. #176 Voltaire
    July 13, 2008

    Écrasez l’infâme! Crush the infamy!

  176. #177 Bert Chadick
    July 13, 2008

    W. M. Kroll is a bible beater from way back. Here’s his Wikipedia entry:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodrow_M._Kroll
    This in itself proves nothing, but I note that the threat was sent at 8:07 AM CST, sort of like a guy pissed off by something he read and banged out an email just after getting to work.

    The cops take death threats seriously, especially political or religious death threats. Expect a call from the black helicopter guys Mr. 1-800-flowers guy.

  177. #178 Adnan Ahmad
    July 13, 2008

    Echoing a couple of previous comments, I wonder if Ms. Kroll is indeed responsible for the emails or even aware of them being sent. It is possible that someone has taken advantage of her absence to use her email address without her knowledge (especially if she’s got that “form fill” feature in her browser, or if she’s got her mail software open on a shared system/pc), in which she may end up losing her job for something she didn’t do. In which case, the guilty party would have sent out unstable death threats and ruined another person’s career.

    On the other hand, if it turns out that she did write those emails, then it’s wise that she be disciplined for something disturbing, nipping it in the bud.

    And again, I have to wonder why it’s a damn wafer/cracker/whatever setting this all off. Can anyone tell me if the cartoon/dutch film controversies set off vitriol this bad?

  178. #179 Shadow
    July 13, 2008

    Well now that we know that mkroll is a girl, are you people STILL gonna call for her head on a platter?

    Well, I’m of the mind that if women want to be treated equally, we should certainly oblige them by smacking their sorry asses just as hard as we would a man. But I’m rather a cunty one, myself. -g-

  179. #180 zeno
    July 13, 2008

    Matt Penfold: I think the veneration they give Jesus’ mother might be a clue. I think some Catholics have issues dealing with the fact their real mothers are not actually virgins.

    Well, then, I can’t have any mommy issues because I’m pretty sure my mother is a virgin. I figure that’s why she referred to all of her children as “miracles”.

    Hey, it sounds better than “bastards”, which my father said was inappropriate.

  180. #181 kevin
    July 13, 2008

    174) But could you teach me to be? I’m willing to learn. See, at my first instinct, I tend to not think that jokes I’ve heard a milion times by the stupidest, illiterate prebuscent wiggers after they got high on glue are somthing to emulate. Is that where I’m wrong? It appears I have a lot to learn so forgive me if I’m intimidated by all this.

  181. #182 E.V.
    July 13, 2008

    “So there’s this guy. He goes into work one day and writes a threatening email. The following monday, he gets canned.”

    I think it was established that “he” is a “she”. Melanie Kroll. Rhymes with Troll.

  182. #183 Blake Stacey
    July 13, 2008

    AdamK:

    Magic crackers have all the same “accidents,” i.e. discernable properties, as plain ol’ crackers. The difference is in the “substance,” which is one of those supernatural things floating around out there in the platosphere. Kinda like the opposite of the actual meaning of the word “substance.”

    Platosphere. I like it. If nothing else, this business has enriched our language:

    * Fatwa envy
    * Platosphere
    * It’s time to get down on our knees and pray.

    There’s a good chance this will all blow over — ScienceBlogs has seen many a crise du jour, and who was that Kathy Griffin woman, again? — but our lexicon might be the richer for it.

  183. #184 mayhempix
    July 13, 2008

    Why do I get the feeling Kevin is actually k8?
    Posted by: E.V. | July 13, 2008 6:49 PM

    The tracks and of idiots and fools are easy to read.

  184. #185 Bride of Shrek OM
    July 13, 2008

    My armchair psychology radar is pinging that it’s not a female sending that message. I mean only insecure, little-dicked men with serious woman issues because they aren’t getting any sex say the word “cunt”. Don’t they Kevin.

  185. #186 DanCar
    July 13, 2008

    Hey all–

    I think it is great to find out about these folks. Death threats shouldn’t be taken lightly. It also highlights how far these religious nuts can take this stuff.

    However, be careful about blaming a bunch of people until we find out a bit more. Melanie and that poster at Amazon may have no idea what is going on here.

  186. #187 Capital Dan
    July 13, 2008

    well sir, you don’t get to blaspheme and walk away from this.
    You have two choices my fucked up friend, first you can quit your job for the good of the
    children. Or you can get your brains beat in.

    That’s not a threat, Glen?

    I mean, I’m not entirely sure, but it seems like a threat to me. It seems like something that could be a potentially valid threat depending upon the abilities of the person writing it.

    I think knowing very little about the author escalates this threat. For instance, is PZ going to be in an area accessible to this person, or is this person capable of traveling to Minnesota to find PZ to carry out this threat?

    You don’t know for certain, so it’s usually best to treat it as valid.

  187. #188 mikeg
    July 13, 2008

    call bull-shit for what it is… im anti-bull-shit… therefore, an antibull-shitist… i subscribe to antibull-shitism… wherever that may lead

  188. #189 Mena
    July 13, 2008

    Question for the New Yorkers:
    Are any of those New York addresses within easy commuting distance of 450 Seventh Avenue, New York, NY 10123?

  189. #190 JoJo
    July 13, 2008

    Well now that we know that mkroll is a girl, are you people STILL gonna call for her head on a platter?

    If she’s the one who sent the email with the death threat, then yes.

    Yes, Melanie Kroll was SERIOUSLY going to PERSONALLY drive her diaper-wearing FEMALE ass cross-country and beat in PZ’s brains.

    What’s your evidence that she won’t? While aggressive women are rarer than aggressive men, they do exist.

    Where is your compassion?

    Where’s yours? Back in #57, you claimed that the death threats weren’t real.

    Sending a threat through the interweb happens to be a criminal offense. It doesn’t matter if the threat is never carried out or is hyperbole on the part of the threatener. It’s still a threat and is legally actionable.

    You know she’s just bitter because she’s an old lesbian who was raised to hate herself. They’re a dime a dozen in the catholic faith.

    I bow to your expert knowledge about the sexual orientation of women Catholics. I just wonder how you know that Ms. Kroll is a lesbian. Did she not put out when you were in high school with her?

  190. #191 JayD
    July 13, 2008

    Jeff, #162:

    I’m on PZ’s side. The irony I was referring to will come to pass if the bastard demanding PZ to resign loses his own job. I suggest you read more carefully in future before posting sarcastic comments.

  191. #192 Sauceress
    July 13, 2008

    Capital Dan #84

    “The thing is, Pharynguloids, you are making the assertion that someone who is crazy enough to write a threatening letter as a result of PZ’s criticism of a cracker is also somehow smart or lucid enough to hack into someone’s 1800flowers corporate email. I mean, it’s possible, but very unlikely.”

    I agree. The fund a mental intelligence the doesn’t come across as the sharpest utensil in the kitchen drawer. Rather more on par with a spoon.

  192. #193 2-D Man
    July 13, 2008

    One more thing: I think that your new “policy”, PZ[ed] doesn’t really mean anything when posted on your blog. I was under the impression that emails, whether threatening or not could be reproduced and retransmitted at the recipient’s discretion. Maybe I’m wrong as I’m an engineering student, not a lawyer.

  193. #194 kevin
    July 13, 2008

    185) I wouldn’t know, I’m gay and well-hung (I got pics, always looking to date) and I get sex constantly. I’ve had so much HIV shot up my ass I’m practically made of it.

  194. #195 Hank Roberts
    July 13, 2008

    Ya know, the IP addresses harvested from the nutmail file would be a useful start toward a distributed database of a different sort.

  195. #196 Matt Penfold
    July 13, 2008

    I would like to point out that whilst there is good evidence that the first e-mail did originate from 1-800-flowers’ mail server the evidence as to the identity of the sender is less clear. Given how poorly many people handle password security it is quite possible that the person identified as the sender merely has her computer used by another person. If you factor in the fact she seems to have been away the last week the possibility that is indeed the case would seem increase.

  196. #197 Jewel
    July 13, 2008

    Melanie may or may not have sent the message. It is possible that one of her coworkers hacked her account – most people use really lousy passwords. However, regardless of whether or not the message came from her, it should be investigated and the person that sent the email should be dealt with appropriately. It should not be discounted just because it came from a woman. I’ve known plenty of women that have owned guns and not all of them are emotionally stable.

  197. #198 Patricia
    July 13, 2008

    er…actually, I’m the wife of Biggus Dickus. ;)

  198. #199 raven
    July 13, 2008

    Hey Myers!!! Start sending that mail to the local, state, and federal (FBI) asap.

    Keep copies and don’t delete any of it, it is evidence of a crime.

    The number of state and federal laws being broken here is many, most are felonies. There are some serious internet centric laws as well about this sort of communications. The FBI is the best bet, they have a cybercrimes unit and they are very computer savvy. Even a proxy won’t stop them, due to Homeland security laws, proxies are legally obligated to keep logs for a certain number of days.

    Been through this myself a while ago. You have to lean on the cops to get them going but they are legally bound to investigate all reported crimes. And they can have a happy ending, one group threatening me ended up arrested by the feds and indicted on felony charges in federal court.

  199. #200 Bert Chadick
    July 13, 2008

    There is a Karen M. Kroll that works for 1-800-flowers.com, or did in 2007.
    This exhausts my sleuthing powers.

  200. #201 Scott Hatfield, OM
    July 13, 2008

    OK, everyone, let’s connect the dots.

    “smonte19@hotmail.com” originates from Yonkers, NY.

    Elsewhere, comments attributed to “smonte19@hotmail.com” have been attributed to Steven Montemurro, a conservative Catholic from Hastings-On-Hudson, NY.

    Hastings-On-Hudson is immediately north of Yonkers.

    Apparently Mr. Montemurro also operates a business out of said hamlet, called Steve’s Teas, Inc., which is a distributor of organic teas. The contact information is as follows:

    Street: 19 Nepperhan Ave
    City: Hastings on Hudson, New York
    Postal code: 10706
    Country: United States
    Phone: +1 914 4780470

    As of 2005, a Steve Montemurro also operated the local franchise of a janitorial service from the same address (but a different phone number) called:

    Jan Pro Cleaning Systems

    1 914 374 0217

    Jan Pro Cleaning Systems does not list this franchise at their main web site, however. Instead, they show:

    JAN-PRO Cleaning Systems of Hudson Valley
    15 North Mill Street
    Nyack, New York 10960
    Phone: (845) 348-3137
    Fax: (845) 348-3125

    So, Mr. Montemurro may not have a franchise at present. This same Steven Montemurro appears to have been a parishioner for many years at St. Matthew’s Church in Hastings-On-Hudson.

    PZ, you should feel free to forward the contents of this email to the authorities, as well as any information that might help THEM connect the dots.

    Try not to get killed, OK?

  201. #202 Dlux
    July 13, 2008

    These people are amateurs. They should have used one of the countless free email providers:

    http://www.christianemailservice.com
    http://www.joyfulemail.com
    mail.jesusanswers.com
    http://www.jesusanswers.com
    http://www.christianfunmail.com

    (ad nauseum)

  202. #203 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    Jewel, read the rest of the comments. I already contact abuse@1800flowers.com

  203. #204 truth machine, OM
    July 13, 2008

    Some of you people are really cunty.

    Oh, the irony.

  204. #205 Feynmaniac
    July 13, 2008

    Hey, I say we do a Top 10 of the Stupidiest Things Said During Wafergate . Here are of few of my entries,

    - Bill Donahue: “It is hard to think of anything more vile than to intentionally desecrate the Body of Christ.”

    - SFG:
    “Zan,

    That’s spelled r-e-l-i-g-I-o-n. Sorry, but there’s no E in that word. See what I mean about the IQ on here. ”

    - Random letter :
    “But, over the years, as I experienced life, educated myself, studied (as a hobby) subjects such as physics, cosmology, quantum mechanics, history, theology, biology, and many other topics”

    - Dutch Hedrick:
    “It is NOT in the nature of the rock, however, to get up and start singing show tunes.”

    - SFG (again!):

    “The IQ quotient here is below 0.

    I’m no “intellectual” (the thought of those people makes me violently sick)”

    I’m sure there are some gems in the 3000+ comments better than these (except SFG on “religion, that’s a classic). Please submit your entries.

  205. #206 Dave C
    July 13, 2008

    re: #75:

    Kevin, you’re either making an unfunny joke, or you have serious, serious issues (or both).

  206. #207 steve8282
    July 13, 2008

    You may want to do the primo’s from each day since this started as well(if you saved them).

  207. #208 truth machine, OM
    July 13, 2008

    Well now that we know that mkroll is a girl, are you people STILL gonna call for her head on a platter? Yes, Melanie Kroll was SERIOUSLY going to PERSONALLY drive her diaper-wearing FEMALE ass cross-country and beat in PZ’s brains. Where is your compassion? You know she’s just bitter because she’s an old lesbian who was raised to hate herself. They’re a dime a dozen in the catholic faith.

    Nice parody of a raving loony misogynist, kevin.

  208. #209 arensb
    July 13, 2008

    AdamK @#150:

    priests don’t claim to be able to distinguish between magic crackers and regular crackers. Magic crackers have all the same “accidents,” i.e. discernable properties, as plain ol’ crackers. The difference is in the “substance,” which is one of those supernatural things floating around out there in the platosphere.

    Yes, I was thinking that as well. One analogy that came to mind is that when I signed the requisite paperwork, my house stopped being “a house” and became “my house”. However, you could’ve camped out in front of it with all the equipment you wanted, and wouldn’t have been able to pinpoint the moment when this transformation occurred, or notice any difference between “a house” and “my house”.

    Of course, it is possible to tell whether a given house is mine or not: go down to city hall and do a deed search. I assume the equivalent in the case of ordinary hosts vs. holy eucharists would be to ask God.

    Of course, that doesn’t seem to work either. (If it did, presumably the NSA would be all over it.) I wonder what the theologians’ excuse for that is. Maybe that it’s better to believe on faith without evidence, as per the story of Doubting Thomas.

  209. #210 E.V.
    July 13, 2008

    Patricia:
    “er…actually, I’m the wife of Biggus Dickus. ;)”
    Um, so you’re really Incontinentia Buttocks?=)

  210. #211 kevin
    July 13, 2008

    Ugh, you people are almost as vicious and reactionary as those muslims who rioted over the cartoons. Of course there are differences but the similarities are perfectly relevant. You are both calling for real-world suffering over an insult that threatened nobody. It was an idle threat over the internet; these things happen all the time and 99.9999999999% of the time nothing comes of it, get over it. If it happened to me I’d think it was funny. Yes there are laws against it, but that doesn’t mean you HAVE to report it. You’re trying to get her fired because you’re cruel to people who are cruel to you, an instinct you evolved; congratulations, you’re a human animal. You are not doing this because of some abstract sense of duty to uphold the law. I stand by my use of “cunty.”

  211. #212 Jennie
    July 13, 2008

    So.. is it just me, or are religious fanatics incapable of using correct grammar and capitalization?

  212. #213 Feshy
    July 13, 2008

    Someone needs to put P.Z. in an awesome collage in honor of the first letter. Maybe we could include a bunch of the Friday cephalapods to fill it out.

  213. #214 JoJo
    July 13, 2008

    Here’s the website for Steve’s Teas, Inc. He appears to be a jobber for other companies.

  214. #215 Kel
    July 13, 2008

    well sir, you don’t get to blaspheme and walk away from this.
    You have two choices my fucked up friend, first you can quit your job for the good of the
    children. Or you can get your brains beat in.

    The forgiving nature of Christianity right there!

    Here I was thinking to commit blasphemy you needed to be a part of that religion in the first place. Almost everything atheists say to do with religion is blaspheming, but that’s fine because we aren’t part of the religion. We have no social contract that prevents us from saying what we like. The Catholics don’t have an exception from this, just as protestants don’t, just as Jews don’t, just as Muslims don’t, just as Hindus don’t, just as Buddhists don’t, just as Pastafarians don’t.

    Catholics really need to understand that their religion is no longer the foundation of society and it’s events like this that show it to becoming increasingly more irrelevant. Non-Catholics should not have to adhere to Catholic beliefs just as Catholics should not have to adhere to Islamic belief. Point is, get over yourselves, bask in your irrelevance and show forgiveness. So much for Christians supposedly following the message of Jesus. If he had ever existed, he would be ashamed of what the sycophants do in his name.

  215. #216 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    kevin, PZ receives an inordinate number of such threats. Who knows which one these Good Christian whackaloons might be a little more serious about it. They need to be intimidated away from making threats.

    So far, NOT ONE SINGLE atheist has threatened violence. It’s all coming from the Good Christian camp. Although that didn’t stop Donohue from preemptively making himself the victim (“IF I receive any threats, it won’t be hard to connect the dots). Well fuck him. WE’RE connecting the dots.

  216. #217 truth machine, OM
    July 13, 2008

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/plonk.php

    Slagging, stupidity, trolling, wanking … I think kevin is well on his way.

  217. #218 raven
    July 13, 2008

    mkroll@1800FLOWERS.com
    Subject: your short life
    Date: July 13, 2008 8:07:31 AM CDT

    Spoofed or not? Who in the hell knows? Not enough data.

    I would certainly forward it to 1 800 flowers with a little note that if one of their employees is sending death threats on company time, they need to think about their liability. It’s bad PR when a company like that starts gay bashing and killing customers.

  218. #219 Carlie
    July 13, 2008

    Kevin, you’re either making an unfunny joke, or you have serious, serious issues (or both).

    Oh, I don’t think there’s any doubt that Kevin has serious issues. Most of them seem to stem from women; perhaps most of the ones he meets treat him like the jerk he is and he can’t figure out why.

  219. #220 mandrake
    July 13, 2008

    Given his comments, I strongly suspect “kevin” is in high school. If he isn’t – well, then, he may have gotten older, but his brain is *still* in high school.

  220. #221 Tatarize
    July 13, 2008

    @46, Geral, “If theres one thing I noticed about reading the scriptures, it’s that Jesus would of beat someone who desecrated his bread with a bat.”

    Actually he would beat someone who desecrated a temple with a scourge. And desecrated in this example means sold stuff that people wanted to buy near by. If you actually read the Gospels, Jesus is far less Jesusy as people claim. Geral apparently thinks his mocking little statement really showed up the trolls who have been harassing PZ. In the Gospels, Jesus actually does attack people violently for a perceived sacrilege that hurt absolutely nobody.

  221. #222 Jewel
    July 13, 2008

    @Neural T — I did read your comments. I was responding to others that think it should be ignored, that’s all.

  222. #223 Katharine
    July 13, 2008

    “Ugh, you people are almost as vicious and reactionary as those muslims who rioted over the cartoons. Of course there are differences but the similarities are perfectly relevant. You are both calling for real-world suffering over an insult that threatened nobody.”

    OH THE IRONY.

    Kevin, you are a colossal moron.

  223. #224 MH
    July 13, 2008

    Scott #201 “19 Nepperhan Ave”

    That end of Nepperhan Ave is residential. It’s probably where he lives.

    Anyway, it’s not like any of us can (or should) do anything about this. It’s really up to PZ to forward the emails to the FBI and let them check it out.

  224. #225 Glen Davidson
    July 13, 2008

    That’s not a threat, Glen?

    Well, I guess it’s technically a threat. But it doesn’t strike me as a very meaningful one. I’ve had one that was a whole lot more definite and real-sounding than that one was (re an exchange about evolution)–it came to absolutely nothing.

    Actually, on an anti-Pantera site there were regularly much meaner and nastier threats across both sides. To be sure, some of those people probably would beat your brains in, if they could find you. Most was useless bluster, though, and quite obviously so.

    I just can’t get very worked up about these “threats.” They seem so tame.

    By the way, if PZ does actually “desecrate” the crackers, he’ll be demonstrating the opposite of his claim that they’re “just crackers.” Smash the idol, and you’re agreeing with your opponents that it’s more than an “ordinary chunk of matter”, even if hardly what it is claimed to be.

    Glen D
    http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

  225. #226 Feynman
    July 13, 2008

    I’d also like to submit Kevin for the Top 10 Stupidiest Thing Said During Wafergate,

    - Kevin:
    “If every old lady in traffic I flipped off and threatened to sodomize with my foot pressed charges against me I’d be in a world of shit.”

    - Also,

    “Yes, Melanie Kroll was SERIOUSLY going to PERSONALLY drive her diaper-wearing FEMALE ass cross-country and beat in PZ’s brains. Where is your compassion? You know she’s just bitter because she’s an old lesbian who was raised to hate herself. They’re a dime a dozen in the catholic faith.”

    - Finally,

    “I stand by my use of “cunty.”

    I half suspect he is a Poe though. If not, I hope he under psychiatric supervision.

  226. #227 Patricia
    July 13, 2008

    No, I’m the younger wife. :)
    Kevin set off my twerp meter. He actually thinks there’s someone on this thread he can shock. First time at trying to be naughty Kevin?

  227. #228 El Herring
    July 13, 2008

    I thank the Lord every day that I’m not religious.

    Of course, I’m really referring to my cat. I call him the Lord. Well he lords it around my house every day, that’s for sure.

  228. #229 karen marie
    July 13, 2008

    i read through the “reviews” by mkroll at his amazon page (h/t alan @ #173 above) and the literacy displayed appears similar to the missive to pz myers.

    not that there’s anything WRONG with liking celine dion or long walks on a tropical beach or patriotism which verges on a nervous breakdown, and not to infer at all that there is anything at all wrong about being gay, but mkroll’s apparent preferences certainly do lean toward what could be considered fairly stereotypically gay choices.

    perhaps mkroll suffers from small penis syndrome of a particularly extreme type.

  229. #230 decrepitoldfool
    July 13, 2008

    On our campus we install software that logs the user off automatically after 20 minutes of inactivity. Professors hate it because they get logged off during their presentations if they don’t at least bump the mouse every once in a while. (I never realized it was so difficult to bump a mouse).

    But it protects them – at least after 20 minutes – from someone making unscrupulous use of their login account including email.

    Of course, in their offices, they turn off that utility. Which would be fine if they’d at least lock the computer when they step away from it. But most don’t; they leave their office computers logged in overnight. Janitors can get into their offices, and so can IT support people.

    (On a Windoze computer, hit Ctrl+Alt+Del and press Enter to lock your computer. Make it part of standing up from your chair.)

    Mkroll may have left her workstation unlocked (as someone observed, women are not usually this aggressive) and someone used it. Depending on the IT policies she could still be in for a real bad Monday. Some companies have good reason to make that a firing offense but employees often think; “What could happen?” This can happen.

    PZ, you’ve graduated from getting tossed out of a theater to death threats in Just Six Months!. When is your new book on Winning Friends and Influencing People coming out? (Seriously, please be careful.)

  230. #231 spudmonkey
    July 13, 2008

    @126
    Nope MH, her name is ‘Incontinentia Buttocks’

  231. #232 Kevin
    July 13, 2008

    Yeah, perhaps if I grew up I’d wake up each day to revel in the righteous indignation I would feel whenever somebody slightly disrespected me. Then again, I’d still be male so maybe not.

  232. #233 Fez
    July 13, 2008

    “Ugh, you people are almost as vicious and reactionary as those muslims who rioted over the cartoons.”

    You are spending an equivalent amount of time on the catholic.com forums berating them for their reactionary behavior, yes?

  233. #234 truth machine, OM
    July 13, 2008

    @Brandon

    the jerks sending hate mail like that to him have no idea what actual Christianity/Catholicism is about.

    Google “No True Scotsman”.

    I admit, if all of the people who called themselves followers of Christ actually followed his teachings, the world would be a better place.

    You’re a very nice fellow, Brandon, with considerable scruples, and if all Christians were like you, we might well just ignore our differences. But that simply isn’t the way things are.

    I do hope that people out there realize that this behavior isn’t typical

    There’s a bell curve, and you’re at one tail and they’re at the other … but I daresay the curve skews in their direction.

    or even remotely considered acceptable to Catholicism.

    Category error. It’s people who consider things acceptable, not isms. And the history of the people who call themselves Catholics is nothing like the self-serving Catholic literature.

  234. #235 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    karen marie: Yeah, so small that it’s a clitoris. We’ve already confirmed that the email address belongs to one Karen Melanie Kroll.

  235. #236 Chad
    July 13, 2008

    I just fired off an email to HR at 1800flowers.com. I sent it to careers@1800flowers.com. I hope to find out this joker gets canned and maybe even charged with a felony.

  236. #237 scooter
    July 13, 2008

    #52

    This line is fantastic. Not only are you to write a resignation, you are commanded to insert it into a woman’s vagina.

    It’s worse than that because most people only use the C-word when referring to a very unpleasant or hostile female person.

    So PZ has to write a resignation, then sneak up on a hostile female then somehow…..

    That’s like when the Wizard ordered Dorothy to steal the witch’s broomstick. Which would make this particular vagina a McGuffin .

    And McGuffins are always dangerous to pursue

    These people are very clever when properly analyzed.
    ——————-

    You Tube Eucharist Challenge

  237. #238 MH
    July 13, 2008

    #229 “perhaps mkroll suffers from small penis syndrome of a particularly extreme type.”

    Well, as the current consensus is that mkroll is female, then you’re probably correct (in an odd sort of way ;-).

  238. #239 mandrake
    July 13, 2008

    By the way, if PZ does actually “desecrate” the crackers, he’ll be demonstrating the opposite of his claim that they’re “just crackers.” Smash the idol, and you’re agreeing with your opponents that it’s more than an “ordinary chunk of matter”, even if hardly what it is claimed to be.

    Glen D

    I see your point, but it seems equally valid that it can be more than an ordinary chunk of matter to them and still just crackers to PZ. Recognizing that they think it’s a symbol doesn’t change its basic crackerness.

  239. #240 raven
    July 13, 2008

    Just so everyone knows, 1-800-flowers has free e-mail. If you go to their website, they have a sign up at the bottom right hand corner of the site. This means that person probably does not work for 1-800-flowers.

    Still easily traceable. All servers and routers have logs and are required to keep them for a certain number of days.

    The FBI cybercrimes could have Mkroll in a half hour if they wanted to. These are mostly ex hackers and IT guys. Seen it done a few times.

  240. #241 Scott Hatfield, OM
    July 13, 2008

    Scott #201 “19 Nepperhan Ave”

    That end of Nepperhan Ave is residential. It’s probably where he lives.

    Anyway, it’s not like any of us can (or should) do anything about this. It’s really up to PZ to forward the emails to the FBI and let them check it out.

    This is true, however the purpose of my comment was to demonstrate that there is good reason to believe that a real person known as Steve Montemurro did in fact originate a threatening message, and that PZ SHOULD take it seriously enough to contact the authorities.

  241. #242 karen marie
    July 13, 2008

    p.s. to kevin: you have proven here today, indisputably, that you do in fact have a very, very tiny penis.

  242. #243 truth machine, OM
    July 13, 2008

    perhaps mkroll suffers from small penis syndrome of a particularly extreme type.

    The type common to people named Melanie?

  243. #244 Felicia
    July 13, 2008

    Things like these remind me exactly why I lost faith to begin with. I hope that you keep safe, PZ. Though sadly, I wish I didn’t have to. :(

  244. #245 anonymous
    July 13, 2008

    #201: “This same Steven Montemurro appears to have been a parishioner for many years at St. Matthew’s Church in Hastings-On-Hudson.”

    The phone number for this church is (914) 478-3681. Maybe you should tell his father on him.

  245. #246 scooter
    July 13, 2008

    do Catholics have mommy issues or something?”

    This is most likely from your Italian flavor of Catholic located somewhere in the New York to Philadelphia corridor.

    Standard #1 ‘rip’ as they call insults in Philly , or used to anyway.
    ————-
    You Tube Eucharist Challenge

  246. #247 eric
    July 13, 2008

    Hey,
    while mkroll was seen as a man, you just wanted to get him fired, but now it’s a Melanie, you just start thinking that she can have done it, and that she’s gonna get into troubles.

    does “innocent until proven guilty” means something to you?

    even mkroll as a man, should have the presumption of innocence.

    Death threat usually comes from couard people, so in a way or another, he or she, might have try to hide it (couard people used to be good at hidding and running away). Maybe the easiest was to use someone else computer ?

  247. #248 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    Even if the threat isn’t real, people can still get in a lot of trouble over it. There was a case where someone “vandalized” a Wikipedia page and wrote something libelous about a Tennessee congressman. Some enterprising Wikipedians tracked his IP address to a company near Nashville. Turns out he had used his employer’s computer to post the material, and he was forced to resign.

    Sending hateful, threatening mail like this is bad for the reputation of 1-800-FLOWERS, and they very well could do something about it. Abusing company resources like that could very well jeopardize your job. If Ms. Kroll didn’t send it, naturally I hope nothing happens to her. But it could be some serious shit for whoever did. There are timestamps in the email headers. Through an investigation, they *could* track down who was using the computer at that particular time.

  248. #249 Josh
    July 13, 2008

    Hi Guys!

    I just sent a e-mail to the freaky Steven guy, I got these mails back from him after i told him my concern about his threats and how he acts:

    Answer 1: Josh’

    Sound like a neutered little man, yes it does make me feel better knowing how many good little progressives are upset, I accomplished my goal

    Answer 2 (after i asked him if he hurts and threatens children to): NO just childish liberals, see unlike neutered liberal men who dont fight for anything they believe in, I would rather fight than try and talk my way out… now go back to your good progressive studies

    Josh

  249. #250 mandrake
    July 13, 2008

    anon@245 –
    Um… I’m pretty uncomfortable with that idea, myself.

  250. #251 HennepinCountyLawyer
    July 13, 2008

    #90 “You love in America. . .”

    Actually, it’s pretty clear that he hates in America.

  251. #252 Col. Fubster
    July 13, 2008

    198) Patricia, you may claim that you are the wife of Biggus Dickus, but everyone knows her name was Incontinentia…

    Incontinentia Buttocks

  252. #253 MM
    July 13, 2008

    “Just so everyone knows, 1-800-flowers has free e-mail. If you go to their website, they have a sign up at the bottom right hand corner of the site. This means that person probably does not work for 1-800-flowers.”
    I believe that box is where you sign up to get promotional mail from 1-800-flowers.com, not where you sign up to get a free email account from 1-800-flowers.com.

  253. #254 Demonic Gophers
    July 13, 2008

    “You’re trying to get her fired because you’re cruel to people who are cruel to you, an instinct you evolved; congratulations, you’re a human animal. You are not doing this because of some abstract sense of duty to uphold the law.”

    Wow, you’re a telepath! This is amazing! After all this time, psychic powers have finally… been… verified….

    Except, of course, that you are completely wrong. I can only speak for myself, but I’m concerned that some of these threats may actually be serious, and I feel that issuing death threats is, in general, unacceptable behavior. I think most of the posters here would agree on both counts.

    Oh, and I do consider the law worth upholding for its own sake. I even obey the speed limit!

  254. #255 Nicole
    July 13, 2008

    Agh, what a typical, procrastinating grad student I am. Letter of support finally sent to your U’s prez! Hope that just one more among many will help.

  255. #256 truth machine, OM
    July 13, 2008

    Just so everyone knows, 1-800-flowers has free e-mail. If you go to their website, they have a sign up at the bottom right hand corner of the site.

    Good grief. That allows you to enter your email address, so that they will send you email. It does not mean they hand you an email address @ 1800flowers.com.

    This means that person probably does not work for 1-800-flowers.

    No, it does not mean anything of the sort; the evidence leans to there being a 1-800-flowers employee named Melanie Kroll. Whether that’s who actually sent the email is not so clear.

  256. #257 decrepitoldfool
    July 13, 2008

    while mkroll was seen as a man, you just wanted to get him fired, but now it’s a Melanie, you just start thinking that she can have done it, and that she’s gonna get into troubles.

    “Beating someone’s head in” is kind of a guy thing.

  257. #258 Ichthyic
    July 13, 2008

    I think it was established that “he” is a “she”. Melanie Kroll. Rhymes with Troll.

    actually, I haven’t seen anybody post the obvious yet, so I will.

    Melanie’s autoresponse indicates she is out of town.

    Why couldn’t she be married to W. M. Kroll (see #177), and MR. Kroll sent the email via her work address? Likely from their home computer, via standard web-browser access to company email, btw.

  258. #260 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    What a Good Christian.

  259. #261 PZ Myers
    July 13, 2008

    Kevin, you are this close to being thrown in the dungeon. I recommend you toddle off somewhere that is more tolerant of outrageous stupidity.

    Everyone else: I really don’t like the idea of harassing either of these people. Let this stand as a record, nothing more — it’s just here in case there is an escalation.

  260. #262 mandrake
    July 13, 2008

    Josh@249
    well, really, what did you expect? I’m impressed that you attempted it, though.
    Seems to some, neutered means a man who can actually think with the brain in his head, as opposed to the lower one.

  261. #263 Jason Brice
    July 13, 2008

    This comment thread is 2% troll and 25% troll keepers.

  262. #264 eric
    July 13, 2008

    #247 : read that she CANNOT have done it

    sorry for the mistyping.

  263. #265 Adam
    July 13, 2008

    Also forward those 1800-flowers emails to the company CEO. His email address is jmccann@1800flowers.com
    VP: cmccann@1800flowers.com

  264. #266 SC
    July 13, 2008

    Well, I guess it’s technically a threat. But it doesn’t strike me as a very meaningful one. I’ve had one that was a whole lot more definite and real-sounding than that one was

    Oh, do whip it out, Glen. A Who’s Got the Biggest Threat contest would fit right in on this thread.

  265. #267 Ichthyic
    July 13, 2008

    #247 : read that she CANNOT have done it

    yes, of course, eric!

    because never in human history has a woman killed anyone through the use of physical violence, nor hired anyone to do it for them, let alone threaten someone with physical harm.

    Your logic is astounding!

    what a twit.

    also, see #258.

  266. #268 raven
    July 13, 2008

    Hi Guys!

    I just sent a e-mail to the freaky Steven guy, I got these mails back from him after i told him my concern about his threats and how he acts:

    Answer 1: Josh’

    Sound like a neutered little man, yes it does make me feel better knowing how many good little progressives are upset, I accomplished my goal

    Answer 2 (after i asked him if he hurts and threatens children to): NO just childish liberals, see unlike neutered liberal men who dont fight for anything they believe in, I would rather fight than try and talk my way out… now go back to your good progressive studies
    Josh

    One down, one to go. I would be sending the original message and all subsequent info to the FBI cybercrimes division. Interstate, federal law applies.

    The FBI will most likely pay him a visit with some questions. And run his license plate and name through a few dozen databases. Usually these guys have a long, long history of “involvement” with law enforcement.

  267. #269 Eli
    July 13, 2008

    I’m sorry you’re still having to deal with all this shit, PZ. It’s a good policy you’ve got, but it sucks that it actually has to be implemented. I mean, Christ on a fracking cracker, it’s just a blog post. If people don’t want to read it, they don’t have to… and they certainly don’t have to threaten your job and your life over it just because they’re too dumb to realize the difference between a cracker and a person. Anyway, I’m behind you 100%, and I hope that this shitstorm blows over soon for you. All the best.

  268. #270 mandrake
    July 13, 2008

    Why couldn’t she be married to W. M. Kroll (see #177), and MR. Kroll sent the email via her work address? Likely from their home computer, via standard web-browser access to company email, btw.

    because WM Kroll’s wife is named Linda (if wikipedia is correct)

  269. #271 scooter
    July 13, 2008

    #122

    at least set up an anonymous account on Gmail or Hotmail

    Those accounts are not anonymous, the origin of the emale still tracks back to the machine from which it was posted in the long header.
    —————

    You Tube Eucharist Challenge

  270. #272 Erp
    July 13, 2008

    If it is not mkroll who sent the email but a co-worker, her computer or account security need not have been compromised but just a co-worker forging her email address from another company computer. We have good evidence it came from her company from the received lines, but, we don’t know it came from her computer (that is something her company IT people should be able to figure out). So we have the following possibilities:

    1. MKroll herself sent the message
    2. MKroll’s computer or account security was compromised by an unknown, to her, third party (though why a third party would do this when there are other easier ways of hiding tracks is unknown). Possible scenario is that she does not password protect her work computer and a janitor has been using it to browse (though janitors don’t have time to do this in my experience). It is also possible that there is a temp covering for her while she is on vacation and the company just handed mkroll’s computer over to the temp for the duration.
    3. MKroll’s computer or account is accessible by a known third party (e.g., her kid, spouse, friend) and that person sent the email not realizing the repercussions that would follow (in which case most likely a kid) or they really dislike Mkroll and want to get her into trouble
    4. A co-worker has it in for her and decided to get her into hot water by forging the from address using his computer at the company.

  271. #273 Ichthyic
    July 13, 2008

    because WM Kroll’s wife is named Linda (if wikipedia is correct)

    good.

  272. #274 ajrw
    July 13, 2008

    PZ: To avoid having the text go off the side of the page, you can wrap it with

    … </div>
  273. #275 mandrake
    July 13, 2008

    didn’t close the #%#@*ing tag. sorry.

  274. #276 truth machine, OM
    July 13, 2008

    Why couldn’t she be married to W. M. Kroll (see #177), and MR. Kroll sent the email via her work address?

    Because the Wikipedia entry in #177 says he’s married to Linda Piper?

  275. #277 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    scooter, yeah but it’s better than using your company email address. Plus, there are ways to anonymize yourself, but I won’t mention them here so the Good Christians don’t get any ideas.

  276. #278 Patricia
    July 13, 2008

    Yes, yes, Col. Fubster, sir thats the OLD wife. I’m Mrs. Dickus the Younger. Chosen not for my buttocks at all. Sometimes a grog & swill slinger does attract a gents attention. :)

  277. #279 Steve Caldwell
    July 13, 2008

    PZ — look on the bright side of the 1800flowers.com email.

    Maybe they’ll give you free flowers for life?

    That would make anniversaries, birthdays, your kids’ future weddings, etc easier.

  278. #280 ajrw
    July 13, 2008

    Make that <div style=”overflow: auto”> .. </div>, darn lying preview.

  279. #281 mandrake
    July 13, 2008

    Ichthyic @267-
    wrong target, I think.

  280. #282 karen marie
    July 13, 2008

    pz myers, have you deleted the phone number to a church which is posted above?

    i would hate to think that they got phone calls from anyone here.

  281. #283 BobC
    July 13, 2008

    “I will pray for you” means “You’re going to hell. You’re going to be tortured for eternity. You deserve it. I’m glad you are doomed.”

    These people are insane and dangerous, and deserve nothing but contempt.

  282. #284 Duae Quartunciae
    July 13, 2008

    PZ says: “Everyone else: I really don’t like the idea of harassing either of these people…”

    I agree; but given the rather wide ranging and free-wheeling nature of your considerable audience; should that not have suggested to you putting the details on your blog was a bad idea?

    I don’t know what I’d do in your situation, frankly. Passing the threats to police seems like a good idea. Would they get acted on?

  283. #285 Galapagos
    July 13, 2008

    #282
    “pz myers, have you deleted the phone number to a church which is posted above?

    i would hate to think that they got phone calls from anyone here.”

    what about JAN-PRO Cleaning Systems? wont somebody please think of the custodians?!???

  284. #286 Calladus
    July 13, 2008

    I think that Melanie is probably innocent of this email. Her autoresponder says she’s not in her office this weekend, and the nature of the email seems to indicate a different, masculine voice.

    I think attempts to connect her to a wishlist and a wiki page are stretched – to say the least. I’ll bet a cookie that she didn’t write that email.

    But I wouldn’t be surprised if the email came from her work computer. Lots of people leave their computers on, and signed in to their email account after they leave at the end of the day.

    And worse, she could have a zombie computer – which would be handily subverted by a script-kiddy.

    I feel sorry for her – there’s going to be a ton of abuse complaints coming to her employer, and she’s going to have a terrible Monday morning.

  285. #287 Rust
    July 13, 2008

    Not sure if some of these were already posted (it’s a long thread!) but I found these corporate e-mails for 1800flowers:

    Brian Batjer
    Director Human Resources
    bbatjer@1800flowers.com
    +1.516.237.6000

    Maureen Paradine
    Vice President, Human Resources
    mparadine@1800flowers.com
    +1.516.237.7843

    I got these through http://www.jigsaw.com which shows you two free contacts when you sign up (you have to pay if you want to see more).

    So if anyone is going to be sending complaints about Mrs. Kroll (or whoever used her e-mail if she didn’t) to 1800flowers, these e-mail should work fine :)

  286. #288 SC
    July 13, 2008

    BTW, the Nature episode on (at least my) PBS right now, “Encountering Sea Monsters,” is about cephalopods. (I guess it’s a repeat, but I’ve never seen it.)

  287. #289 Norman Doering
    July 13, 2008

    Maybe it’s time to admit that “yes, we can be intimidated by death threats and it will get you the same kind of respect it gets a rabid rattlesnake.” And then, be careful how you mock religion in the future.

    So far, this, from where I’m sitting (not so sure about where PZ is sitting), has been worth it. It has really exposed the underlying insanity and violence brewing in some of the religious minds out there.

  288. #290 Nicole
    July 13, 2008

    As a female, I am offended at the use of the “c” word in that email. Doesn’t mkroll know that Eve Ensler already reclaimed it?

    Say it with me…

  289. #291 Elles
    July 13, 2008

    The first e-mail raises a good point. How do you get a job at a “collage” when a collage is an artwork? Can the collage pay you?

    I say that before we discuss whether or not PZ is a moron we should discuss how a normal person can get a job at a collage. If we can solve that problem then perhaps we may help keep down unemployment.

  290. #292 rob
    July 13, 2008

    I talked to 1800flowers.com.

    The person to contact about the mail from 1800flowers.com is:

    rggrant@1800flowers.com

    She is a supervisor-type person.

    Be sure to include the body of the email.

    Mr. Kroll is going to soon be an ex-employee.

  291. #293 Nibien
    July 13, 2008

    “174) But could you teach me to be? I’m willing to learn. See, at my first instinct, I tend to not think that jokes I’ve heard a milion times by the stupidest, illiterate prebuscent wiggers after they got high on glue are somthing to emulate. Is that where I’m wrong? It appears I have a lot to learn so forgive me if I’m intimidated by all this.”

    Did that seriously come out of a guy who’s pinnacle of insults was to call people ‘cuntys’?

  292. #294 camanintx
    July 13, 2008

    what I would like to know is how did you even
    get a job at a collage.

    Because he could spell it.

  293. #295 Joe Max
    July 13, 2008

    Just so everyone knows, 1-800-flowers has free e-mail. If you go to their website, they have a sign up at the bottom right hand corner of the site. This means that person probably does not work for 1-800-flowers.

    But the corporate disclaimer at the bottom of the message implies it was actually part of their internal corporate system. Still worth following up.

  294. #296 The Physicist
    July 13, 2008

    Catholics really need to understand that their religion is no longer the foundation of society and it’s events like this that show it to becoming increasingly more irrelevant.

    I never believed us Catholics were the center of all things, my Faith is for me. If you reject it, that’s OK with me. I am not the judge, nor do I act as one, as PZ can tell you.

  295. #297 raven
    July 13, 2008

    http://www.usdoj.gov:

    At present, there are numerous efforts at the federal and state levels that focus solely on high technology crimes. These units do not focus on cyberstalking alone, but they have the necessary expertise in computers and the Internet to assist in the investigation of cyberstalking when it arises. For example, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has Computer Crime Squads throughout the country, as well as the National Infrastructure Protection Center in Washington, to ensure cybercrimes are properly investigated. Additionally, they have Computer Analysis and Response Teams to conduct forensics examinations on seized magnetic media. Similarly, in 1996 the Justice Department established the Computer Crime and Intellectual Property Section within the Criminal Division. These units have highly trained personnel who remain on the cutting edge of new technology and investigative techniques. In addition, each U.S. Attorney’s office contains experienced computer crime prosecutors. These individuals — Computer and Telecommunications Coordinators — assist in the investigation and prosecution of a wide variety of computer crimes, including cyberstalking. In addition, at the state level, several attorneys general have established special divisions that focus on computer crimes.

    Although high-tech expertise is essential, police and prosecutors have developed other strategies for helping victims of cyberstalking. An Assistant U.S. Attorney reported that in two recent cases of e-mail harassment, he asked an FBI agent to confront the would-be harasser. The agent advised that such behavior might constitute a criminal offense. In both instances, the harassment stopped. Such strategies, however, are no substitute for prosecution under federal or state law in the appropriate circumstances.

    Time to call the FBI. State laws may also apply but vary from state to state. NY has some tough laws as does California.

    It is illegal to email Death Threats. Everyone pays taxes, might as well have your employees do something for once.

    There are a lot of laws governing this and a lot of case law. Just google, cyberstalking and death threats and read.

    FWIW, I know of cases where the creeps got picked up. One ended up doing 18 months in prison plus a fine. That idiot emailed their litle scrawls from work, Hewlett Packard as it turned out.

  296. #298 BG
    July 13, 2008

    PZ,

    If you don’t send the info about these threats to the police then you are just saying and making it ok for these folks to keep treating folks like this.

    I don’t know about harassing them, but there should be consequences for the behavior they exhibited.

    Not doing the simplest of things, which is forwarding it to the police and/or FBI since it is interstate is just enabling them.

  297. #299 LawnBoy
    July 13, 2008

    Re: #116

    I apologize if this has already been said, but I think the email you sign up for is to be spammed with their newsletter, etc., not to get a new email address.

  298. #300 scooter
    July 13, 2008

    # 185 I wouldn’t know, I’m gay and well-hung

    Somehow I suspect you are neither
    ————-
    You Tube Eucharist Challenge

  299. #301 karen marie
    July 13, 2008

    holy crap! i read at #235 above that her name is KAREN melanie kroll!

    omg! i seriously have cooties.

    i’m really too old to change my name. everyone cross your fingers and hope to die with sugar on top that we are not one and the same.

    pz myers can, through magical technology, confirm it.

    ick ick [dusting clothes, etc]

  300. #302 truth machine, OM
    July 13, 2008

    Your logic is astounding!

    what a twit.

    Yes you are, Ich, as you will see if you go back and carefully read the person you responded to (who is on your side).

  301. #303 Joe Max
    July 13, 2008

    Everyone recommending that PZ ask skilled techies in the IT department to track it down: PZ has been on the net for a long time, including time spent in the howling sewer that was talk.origins, and has done his geeking time as well. If he doesn’t know how to read Received: headers at least as well as a random overworked IT goon, I’ll eat my hat.

    Meh. At the university I work for, our IT department has their allocated quota of underworked student work-study kids that have plenty of time to track down death threats being sent through their mail system. It don’ hurt ta ask.

  302. #304 karen marie
    July 13, 2008

    #237 gets the prize for making me scream laughing

  303. #305 Capital Dan
    July 13, 2008

    It’s hard to image someone being dumb enough to use their business email to send a threatening letter, but then again, someone once tried to use a banana to disprove evolution.

    The Stupids are scary, I guess.

  304. #306 Bjorn Watland
    July 13, 2008

    The FBI would be interested in this information. Since it’s an electronic mail death threat, it can easily be a Federal matter. Believe it, or not, the FBI does watch out of religious extremists.

    Minneapolis FBI:
    Address:
    Federal Bureau of Investigation
    111 Washington Avenue South
    Suite 1100
    Minneapolis, MN 55401

    Phone: (612) 376-3200
    Fax: (612) 376-3249

    Although the FBI operates 24 hours per day, 7 days a week, our business hours are from 8:15 am until 5:00 pm (CST), Monday through Friday. If you need to speak to an FBI representative outside of business hours, you may telephone the office at (612) 376-3200.

    Email: minneapolis@ic.fbi.gov

  305. #307 raven
    July 13, 2008

    mkroll@1800flowers.com is innocent until proven guilty.

    OTOH, he, she or it will have some ‘splaining to do tomorrow morning.

    The truth is out there!!!

  306. #308 truth machine, OM
    July 13, 2008

    I apologize if this has already been said

    Third time’s the charm.

  307. #309 Brownian, OM
    July 13, 2008

    Forget collages. I wanna know how to get a job at a mosaic or a terrazzo.

  308. #310 Ichthyic
    July 13, 2008

    Ichthyic @267-
    wrong target, I think.

    oops.

    I stand corrected, apologies to Eric.

  309. #311 Soybomb
    July 13, 2008

    Letters like this always make me wonder why so many people who generally identify as democrats are against concealed carry or firearms in general. While I think its just random puffery nuttiness…I’d still be packing were I PZ.

  310. #312 Dutch Delight
    July 13, 2008

    Concern troll

    There, covered that part in advance.

    Main point: Connecting the dots to a wide audience in this way is not a good idea.

    The tubes of the internets stretch far and wide, peoples entire lives get published in this way, without any context or real verification of accuracy, and all that on the assumption that the original message wasn’t a joe-job of the social engineering variety.

    Consider the effects of giving a large audience the information they need to contact people directly, not companies, persons. Mobs are unpredictable as is the idiot in every social group.

    I don’t know the legal ramifications of unleashing an internet mob on the wrong person, but regardless of those the person who published them carries responsibility for it’s effects.

    I think Karl Rove would tell me I’m defending trrrsts right about now.

  311. #313 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    How would you feel if nice folks starting ranting against
    Fags, and atheist like yourself.

    Umm, yeah, they already do, and they have been centuries.

  312. #314 Monado
    July 13, 2008

    The address for reporting abuse seems to be rreid@1800flowers.com . While Ms. Kroll’s machine may have been hacked, it is also possible to sign in to work e-mail via the Web. However, I agree that it doesn’t sound like a female’s use of language.

    Certainly, equal rights mean equal penalties.

    Everyone seems to forget that this started with the physical assault of a student in church by people wrenching at his arm and prying at his fingers like purse-snatchers. He also has a case for legal penalties against his attackers.

  313. #315 scooter
    July 13, 2008

    #302

    carefully read the person you responded to (who is on your side).

    Yeah, I saw that, too.

    It’s important to read the entire post before troll-stomping due to the rampant use of irony.
    ————-
    You Tube Eucharist Challenge

  314. #316 Maverick
    July 13, 2008

    I like how the end of the second message says:

    “Making the world a better place one message at a time. Check out the i’m Talkathon.”

    Lulz.

  315. #317 The Dude
    July 13, 2008

    Well that first dude is now signed up for as many gay porn mailing lists as I could find in a 5 minute search…

  316. #318 Boosterz
    July 13, 2008

    When looking at email headers you want to pay special attention to the ip address in the brackets[ ]. That is the hard part for a spammer/troll/dumbass to forge. Professional spammers can add additional received lines but there will always be one for the actual origin of the email. If their is an email address with it, start tracing the received line IPs backwards from the top. Most spammers will use a completely bogus reply to address but these dumbasses mailing the death threats probably didn’t bother thinking that far ahead. When you find a received from IP that matches the email address it’s a safe bet that is where the email originated.

    Once you have verified the origin/source of the email, that would be when you unleash hell upon it. >:-)

  317. #319 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    I don’t know the legal ramifications of unleashing an internet mob on the wrong person, but regardless of those the person who published them carries responsibility for it’s effects.

    No, they don’t, unless they say something like “go harass these people.” That would fall under the jurisdiction of inciting a riot, yelling “fire” in a crowded theater, etc. PZ has explicitly stated in these comments that he doesn’t want them harrassed.

    They made themselves targets when they sent the email, as they knew (or should have known) there was a possibility he could publish the identifying information (why do you think, in all likelihood, someone used an account [Ms. Kroll's] that doesn’t belong to them).

  318. #320 Dutch Delight
    July 13, 2008

    I don’t know the legal ramifications of unleashing an internet mob on the wrong person, but regardless of those the person who published the personal information carries responsibility for it’s effects.

  319. #321 Brandon
    July 13, 2008

    @Truth Machine

    the jerks sending hate mail like that to him have no idea what actual Christianity/Catholicism is about.

    Google “No True Scotsman”.

    This does not fall within that fallacy. Catholicism has a code of moral conduct that excludes sending hate mail and a person who is following the teachings of Catholicism would not send hate mail that like. Yes, Christians/Catholics do not always follow their moral code (we call it a sin); however, something as immoral as threatening to end an individual’s life, is far enough away from the code for me to personally feel that an individual would not do that if they actually internalized the teachings.

    I’m not saying that the people who are writing these messages aren’t Catholic (although, I do hope they aren’t), but I am suggesting that they seriously need to examine their conscience and reexamine the divide between what their faith teaches and what their actions proclaim.

    I must also admit that I haven’t entertained myself in some time through debates so my word choices are not always the best. I meant “have no idea” in the same way that you or I would say “that person has no idea how to drive!”. Obviously that isn’t true or else they would not be operating a motor vehicle, but the point remains that the person’s conduct is far outside what the set of ethics/rules/guidelines demands.

    I admit, if all of the people who called themselves followers of Christ actually followed his teachings, the world would be a better place.

    You’re a very nice fellow, Brandon, with considerable scruples, and if all Christians were like you, we might well just ignore our differences. But that simply isn’t the way things are.

    Thank you very much. I appreciate that. There’s fault on both sides of the argument on the level of apprehension felt between the two groups. My personal opinion is that my belief does not require you to believe as I do. I’ll engage someone in discussion, but my end goal is not conversion, it’s conversation. If something I said lead you to rethinking the concept of belief, faith, spirituality or religious, great. If not, then hopefully we leave each other with a bit deeper understanding of the other. You won’t be able to understand my faith better if I attack your lack of faith in my God, so there’s zero point to do so.

    In some of these posts, I’ve read many atheists who appear to think along those same lines. There are also plenty who seem to be more on the offensive in attacking belief as something that only the stupid possess and should be eliminated in an enlightened society.

    On both sides of this theological issue, there are those who help bring opposites together for the sake of discussion and conversation and there are those who bring opposites together to mock and attack them.

    Also, just as much as I hope that some atheists can see that not all Christians are possibly mentally ill hypocrites, I hope some Christians who are on the attack realize how hypocritical they’re about to be.

    I do hope that people out there realize that this behavior isn’t typical

    There’s a bell curve, and you’re at one tail and they’re at the other … but I daresay the curve skews in their direction.

    Granted on the bell curve. I think the vocal response to Professor Myers is skewed toward “their end”, but I think there are many more Catholics who, if they hear about Donohue’s “mission” to stop Prof. Myers from “defaming” Catholicism would probably just shake their heads and move on with their life.

    Although, I think it is funny in a sad way that if the Catholic League never said anything about this, it would have died with a couple of posts. The Catholic League jumps into the pit and now it is an absolute three-ring circus. If they left Professor Myers alone and stop going on these no-win tirades, I think the world would be a better place.

    or even remotely considered acceptable to Catholicism.

    Category error. It’s people who consider things acceptable, not isms. And the history of the people who call themselves Catholics is nothing like the self-serving Catholic literature.

    Disagree, although my wording may have led to error. Catholicism, at least as the theory goes, is transmitted through the so-called self-serving Catholic literature. The Vatican doesn’t publish the stuff just for show; it is published to be used as a guide. Catholicism has spilled much ink on the topic of “Love your neighbor as yourself” and sending hate mail to others is not compatible with that statement. Since “Love your neighbor as yourself” is part of the “greatest commandment” given by Jesus, for someone to not do that, it is acting in a fashion not acceptable to Catholicism (or at least the Pope if you want to put a person into the mix, but I’m not intending to launch a new topic regarding the Pope-that’s for a different day).

    The church is a place for sinners like a hospital is a place for the sick. If Catholics were perfect in living their Catholicism, we wouldn’t need churches. Catholics have failed plenty—sadly, the institution has failed plenty as well. No argument from me on that.

    The Church asks that a person does the best they can in living out the faith proclaimed and yes, our best has been far too short far too often.

    I must run now. I work for a church (of all places) and Sundays are busy days for us. Mass in ten minutes. Don’t worry, no physical force will be exercised. :-)

  320. #322 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    LOL @ 317

  321. #323 Dlux
    July 13, 2008

    PZ: “Everyone else: I really don’t like the idea of harassing either of these people.”

    If by ‘harassing’ you mean ‘obsessing over’, I think you’re too late.

    And thus closes the brief chapter where PZ Meyers posts the full headers of email threats to his readers…

  322. #324 xenubarb
    July 13, 2008

    I worked at a collage once.
    Took months, and involved hundreds of pieces of photographs, drawings, and magazine pages.

    Never paid nuthin, though. Labor of love.

    That said, the sooner our society has a line that says “you must be this smart to function here, the rest of you are soylent green” the better.

    Does that seem elitist? But kind of attractive, getting these mouth breathers out of our gene pool, no?

  323. #325 BellaB
    July 13, 2008

    Am I the only one who thinks the diaper comment in #145 is a reference to astronaut Lisa Nowak?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Nowak

    Even if it wasn’t, she’s certainly an example of a woman who was capable of posing a threat to someone else. I would be careful of ruling out a woman as the perpetrator simply for being a woman. Look at the evidence, and if it turns out that a woman most likely did it, then so be it. But don’t let a suspect’s gender be a determining factor.

    That being said, I agree with Professor Myers that it wouldn’t be a good idea to harass/spam these addresses. I’m not so sure about threatening this person’s job at 1-800flowers.com either. As it has been noted above, Melanie Kroll may simply have had her account hacked.

  324. #326 Michelle
    July 13, 2008

    Someone with two working brain cells would not be stupid enough to send threatening emails with their regular mail, so don’t bother with the porn mailing list sign ups.

  325. #327 raven
    July 13, 2008

    Prison time for email threats
    By Courtney Macavinta
    Staff Writer, CNET News.com
    Published: May 4, 1998 5:05 PM PDT

    May 1, 1998
    Net libel suit raises free speech issues
    March 13, 1998

    Online hate speech on trial
    November 5, 1997 The first Net user found guilty of an online hate crime–where death threats were sent by email to 59 Asian university students–was sentenced to one year in prison today, time that already has been served.

    A jury convicted former University of California at Irvine student Richard Machado, 21, on two counts of federal civil rights violations in February.

    In 1996, Machado was accused of sending an email to a group of fellow students, most of whom were Asian, threatening to “…make it my life career to find and kill every one of you personally.” The email, sent from a campus computer, allegedly was signed “Asian Hater.”

    Mkroll@1800flowers.com and the other clown, smontel19@hotmail.com are looking at some serious jail time here.

  326. #328 Fez
    July 13, 2008

    #317 – “Well that first dude is now signed up for as many gay porn mailing lists as I could find in a 5 minute search…”

    And the constructive outcome of this is going to be…?

    Prof. Meyers is a big boy and he’s demonstrated in the past that he’s more than capable of fighting his own battles. Taking some kind of punitive action nominally in his name is insulting and the height of arrogance.

  327. #329 Dutch Delight
    July 13, 2008

    My internet experience tells me that the words “go harass these people” might as well be automatically added into every post with personal details, because thats what people seem to read.

  328. #330 Vitis01
    July 13, 2008

    I’m worried about something.

    If one of these bat-shit crazy nutjobs follows through with their threat…
    how is the atheist community going to deal with PZ becoming a martyr?

    PZ, on the outside chance that you are killed, how would you like your death avenged?

    May I respectfully suggest that no one here strap dynamite to their bodies and blow themselves up in the lobby of 1800Flowers.

  329. #331 AdamK
    July 13, 2008

    “Platosphere. I like it. If nothing else, this business has enriched our language:

    * Fatwa envy
    * Platosphere
    * It’s time to get down on our knees and pray.”

    How am I supposed to remain aware of all internet tradishunz when you people keep adding to them?

  330. #332 firemancarl
    July 13, 2008

    The only person who should be allowed to say cunt is the late Joe Strummer. Clash fans will know.

    Besides, there are soooo many better words to use than that.

  331. #333 Fez
    July 13, 2008

    “The only person who should be allowed to say cunt is the late Joe Strummer.”

    Why not John McCain?

  332. #334 Capital Dan
    July 13, 2008

    Well that first dude is now signed up for as many gay porn mailing lists as I could find in a 5 minute search…

    Posted by: The Dude

    And that will accomplish what, exactly?

    Seriously, man. Grow the fuck up. For all we know, you just subjected some poor woman whose email was wrongly used to no end of stupidity all because you believe you are being cute.

  333. #335 Reed A. Cartwright
    July 13, 2008

    I don’t know if this has been said yet, but emails that PZ receives at his university email address are public records, and therefore can be made public with few exceptions.

    People who threaten a public employee at their public email address are risking a stronger punishment than threatening a regular citizen.

  334. #336 raven
    July 13, 2008

    chronicle.com

    May 21, 2008
    Lecturer Convicted for Death Threats to Colleagues
    Xiang Li, a former lecturer in the department of computer and information technology at Morrisville State College, has been convicted by a federal court in New York of 11 counts of making threats with the intent to kill or injure his colleagues at the college, formally the College of Agriculture and Technology at Morrisville, which is a branch of the State University of New York system.

    The Post-Standard, a newspaper in Syracuse, N.Y., reported that Mr. Li, who had a one-year appointment at Morrisville in the 2005-6 academic year, had been found guilty on 11 of 12 counts of making threats. He used e-mail messages and telephone calls to harass professors and administrators at the college after his appointment was not renewed. The messages included death threats.

    In testimony before the court, Mr. Li was described as a “nightmare in the classroom” whose clashes with students led to the college’s decision not to rehire him.

    Mr. Li, who is a citizen of China, faces a total of five years in prison for the crimes.

    Oops, mkroll and smontel could get up to 5 years.

    Not going to post any more morons doing time for emailing death threats. There are way too many to list.

  335. #337 sailor
    July 13, 2008

    “4. A co-worker has it in for her and decided to get her into hot water by forging the from address using his computer at the company.”

    Yes this occured to me. A nice clean way to get a co-worker you do not like fired.

  336. #338 Cuttlefish, OM
    July 13, 2008

    I imagine someone cowers in an office, after hours,
    At the 1-800-Flowers building, somewhere in New York.
    Overwhelmed by the unending flow of emails folks are sending,
    With no chance at all, intending for to stop it with a cork.
    Once you start to dance or revel, if the fiddler is the Devil
    Then there’s no more straight and level–you are gambling with your soul;
    If you bend to your desires and you threaten P. Z. Myers,
    It’s your choice to burn in fires, and we’ll see you in the hole!

  337. #339 flea
    July 13, 2008

    I work in the internet division of a giant retail corporation very much like 1.800.flowers. Here’s some stuff I’ve learned about internet complaints of any kind:

    1.) emails are forwarded randomly to low-level grunts such as myself. The goal of the grunts is to get rid of you and your question as quickly as possible. There is a possibility that your email will get forwarded to a supervisor or corporate customer service, but just as good a chance that you’ll get a “thank you for your comments, this will be forwarded to the appropriate department” response, then your email will get dumped.

    2.) The CEO will never, ever see your email. Never. Never ever. Never never never. If you email it to him directly, he’ll still never get it, because it will be routed to corporate customer service. He has more important things to do, like rolling around nude in a giant pile of money.

    3.) It is very possible that someone is using Ms. Kroll’s computer to send these emails. The same thing happened at my job, when a disgruntled employee used someone else’s computer to send a companywide email with attached photographs of the man who had gotten a promotion he felt he deserved. In the photographs, the newly promoted man was screwing his immediate supervisor on one of the beds in quality assurance. It was teh awesome. After that, all the computers were programmed to lock down after ten minutes of disuse. Let’s not call for Ms. Kroll’s head until we have all the facts.

    4.) The best thing you can do is contact either the HR department or corporate customer service. In a pinch, I would say call corporate. Giant companies are usually quite conservative and do not want their employees reflecting badly on the company, and they will take death threats written by one of their employees on company time *very* seriously. PZ may get some free flowers out of this! Plus, HR is going to think about all the work place shootings that have occurred over the past decade and seriously wonder if they have a mentally disturbed, violent employee on their hands that may end up hurting *them* someday.

  338. #340 Troy Lacefield
    July 13, 2008

    PZ.
    I am all for posting these vile and hateful email with their addresses for all to see. Its one thing to disagree and saying so. Its quite another to enter into the rim of threating violence . So go for it, post until your heart content, the most vile and hateful email and we the reader will spam them until they beg for mercy.

  339. #341 clinteas
    July 13, 2008

    Now,we all know that this and the threads of the last few days have shown,if we didnt already know it,that fundie christians of any denomination will lean to the less educated and mentally ill or unstable side of the population.

    I have no problem at all with mocking them when they come here to hate and rant,we all know you hardly ever can have a rational discussion with them.

    However,I do not think that publishing IP addresses is a good idea PZ,neither is whois-ing them and sending out emails to the provider/employer etc.,if you feel threatened,and I think you do,judging from the new disclaimer on the site,then send those data to the Police or FBI and let them chase those people.

    As I said above,these are some seriously unhinged individuals,and as pradeep said above,look after yourself and stay safe,if you feel threatened by any particular mail,hand it over to the authorities.

  340. #342 Dutch Delight
    July 13, 2008

    The Dude is just another troll. I doubt someone without issues relating to gays in the first place would ever consider such a response to death threats.

  341. #343 speedwell
    July 13, 2008

    Scenario #5: Ms. Kroll went to the building on her vacation and used her work computer, or signed into the building after hours with an access card. (It’s possible. The laws of physics do allow her to be in the building even if her Out Of Office message is on.)

    Personally, I don’t really think it’s her, either, barring new evidence. I’ve worked for enough scumbags in my career to believe that Melanie is a secretary or other minor support functionary, and her moron boss didn’t think any further than covering his ass with her job security.

  342. #344 Boosterz
    July 13, 2008

    “Someone with two working brain cells…”

    You are assuming much. We ARE talking about fundamentalists here.

  343. #345 raven
    July 13, 2008

    dutch the Death Cult moron:

    My internet experience tells me that the words “go harass these people” might as well be automatically added into every post with personal details, because thats what people seem to read.

    You are the poster moron for a cultist who is blind. The kind that could watch a priest stick his dick up a little kid and claim it didn’t happen. Which BTW, plenty of Catholics did exactly that. The problem with xians isn’t that they aren’t any better than other people, it is that some of them are far, far worse than average.

    If these morons weren’t sending death threats to PZ Myers they wouldn’t be up in public. Their choice, their problem. Their real problem will happen when the FBI picks them up. Email death threats are felonies and can and will be prosecuted. Again, “as you sow, so shall you reap”. That book xians always ignore and never read.

    And BTW, the laws and police exist to protect people like Myers from people like you, kroll, and montel. Sucks being a criminal sometimes, doesn’t it.

  344. #346 DingoDave
    July 13, 2008

    Kevin wrote @ #145:
    “Well now that we know that mkroll is a girl, are you people STILL gonna call for her head on a platter?”

    I know several women with black belts in karate who could whup your sorry arse Kevin, and not even break a sweat. Besides which, how much expertise does it take to squeeze the trigger of a concealed firearm. Which, considering the American people’s seeming obsession with owning firearms, is certainly not out of the question. Or how about stabbing with a knife, such as what happened to the Dutch filmaker who was murdered recently in broad daylight on a street in Amsterdam by a crazy Muslim fanatic?

    Never underestimate the sheer lunacy and determination of an outraged religious fanatic Kevin.

  345. #347 John C. Randolph
    July 13, 2008

    The only person who should be allowed to say

    Sorry, my freedom of speech doesn’t require your approval. You’re a cunt.

    -jcr

  346. #348 dave
    July 13, 2008

    Kevin (#101):

    Oh please, I’ve been bandying “cunty” around town since I was three years old.

    So you’ve been using it for what, six whole weeks?

  347. #349 lane
    July 13, 2008

    Wow!

    You have a published policy regarding threats of violence AND over 300 people have responded to your latest post.

    Are you the second coming of Christ, or something?
    :)

    I look forward reading your blog over the next several days to find out why you are so (un)popular.

  348. #350 Goldfishflakes
    July 13, 2008

    PZ,

    Just wanted you to know that Hemant over at Friendly Atheist Blog is roasting you as well. Sigh…

    If it counts, I back you.

    http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/13/a-response-to-wafergate/#comment-201470

  349. #351 John C. Randolph
    July 13, 2008

    So, how did the correspondent above get the impression that PZ has a job in a collage? It’s not at all clear to me what having a job in a work of art would entail.

    -jcr

  350. #352 Fez
    July 13, 2008

    #347 – well played. +1 internetz for you.

  351. #353 John C. Randolph
    July 13, 2008

    Bill Donahue must be proud of what he set into motion

    Of course he is. Donahue is all about getting attention for his worthless self, and he got quite a bit of it this week.

    -jcr

  352. #354 Deadvole
    July 13, 2008

    Re: collage. I think they meant to rub it in, that he had not moved on to decoupage.

  353. #355 heeps
    July 13, 2008

    These morons don’t care about right and wrong, about truth or evidence or fact, about human life.

    It disgusts me.

  354. #356 dinkum
    July 13, 2008

    What if PZ is forwarding all this lovely email to The Authorities, but simply doesn’t feel the need to broadcast that fact, so as to not warn off any potential purveyors of Righteous Fury? How cool would it be for Catholicism to register as a blip on Homeland Security’s watch list?

  355. #357 Azkyroth
    July 13, 2008

    The thing that really makes me sad is, I know people who would actually resign if they got a threat like that.

  356. #358 Dutch Delight
    July 13, 2008

    raven:

    You are the poster moron for a cultist who is blind.

    This is silly. Your post doesn’t even address mine, so I’m wondering why you even went through the trouble of quoting me. If you even care, I’m not a cultist of any kind. Go search for my name in the last few threads if you are still undecided on that note, or are about to start a tirade against faux-atheists.

    In case you misunderstood. I’m not just referring to Pharyngula or PZ, every forum with a large and motivated audience where personal details are published suffers from the same problem. Just asking readers not to harass a person can help a lot though. In the end, I don’t care, I’m sharing an opinion, take it or leave it.

    Or ignore everything I said and rant about cults and what they do all day.

  357. #359 New Yorker
    July 13, 2008

    A big chunk of 800Flowers people work from home – they’re called “home agents” – and are part of a distributed call center. When you call to buy flowers, its really unlikely that you’re talking to someone in Carle Place.

    So there would be no need to go in to the office on vacation – they just need to walk over to their desk at home.

    Fingers crossed – maybe New York is partially redeemed ;)

  358. #360 Peter
    July 13, 2008

    Here’s an email I sent to his work address just for shits and giggles:

    Subject: You have to be the dumbest piece of shit to ever walk the earth

    Body: Threatening a guy’s life from your work email is a fucking class act.
    Expect to not have a very good week.

    Also, while I am far from homosexual, your random rant about fags and whatnot just makes you look like a stupid ass dipshit redneck. Maybe you missed the memo on that over at 1800Flowers HQ. The more socially acceptable way to rant against fags is to protest gay marriage, which I believe is eventually going to get passed nationwide anyway (like it
    has in most other, more progressive, countries). It’s the pieces of shit like you that are holding back inevitable progress, as usual, and causing the US to drag ass. Maybe you should have studied your way to one of those “lib’rul” colleges, then maybe your ass wouldn’t be stuck at 1800Flowers.

  359. #361 AdamK
    July 13, 2008

    Brandon @ 321:

    “Since “Love your neighbor as yourself” is part of the “greatest commandment” given by Jesus, for someone to not do that, it is acting in a fashion not acceptable to Catholicism (or at least the Pope if you want to put a person into the mix, but I’m not intending to launch a new topic regarding the Pope-that’s for a different day).”

    The Pope? The Nazi who calls me “intrinsically disordered” because I’m gay? Then shields his baby-raping buddies? You call that “loving”!!??!! That’s one intrinsifuckinally disordered idea of “love,” dude.

    It’s “acting in a fashion not acceptible to Catholicism,” except when Pope Ratsy does it.

  360. #362 Peter
    July 13, 2008

    Correction: It’s not a “him”, it’s a “HER”! It’s not often that I see a violent outburst threat from a woman! I wouldn’t necessarily go assuming it was a man using her account, though

  361. #363 John C. Randolph
    July 13, 2008

    I just dropped a note to Ms. Kroll:


    Ms. Kroll,
    It appears that someone has taken over your computer and used it to send threats of violence to PZ Myers, a college professor in Minnesota. I’ve included the full text of the message and its headers below, to aid your local police, and your IT security staff in investigating this misuse of 1-800-flowers’s computers.
    Dr. Myers has also posted the message at his web log, at the following address:
    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/mail_dump.php
    Whether it’s an internet break-in, or some idiot who actually has access to your office, I’m sure that a company that depends on its public reputation will want to get a lid on this situation as quickly as possible.
    Sincerely,

    -jcr

    and I got an auto-reply from the same IP address as appears in the message the PZ posted above.

    Note however, that since the computer it came from is running Windows, and since its user is apparently away on vacation, it’s entirely possible that this message actually came from someone who is misusing Ms. Kroll’s computer without her knowledge.

    -jcr

  362. #364 Benjamin Owens
    July 13, 2008

    For those asking if the email from 1800Flowers.com was real, just look at the headers: in particular the “Received” part.

    the email came from CPNYMAIL02.1800flowers.int, was sent to mail2.800-flowers.net, and then was sent to Google. 1800flowers.int isn’t a valid domain — it must be used internally (which is common for larger corporations.)

    If it wasn’t sent by somebody that works at 1800Flowers.com, it was sent by somebody with access to their internal email system.

    If it was the first, their HR department should know — and if it was the latter their IT should know that they have a major security flaw.

    From: mkroll@1800FLOWERS.com
    Subject: your short life
    Date: July 13, 2008 8:07:31 AM CDT
    To: myersp@morris.umn.edu
    Delivered-To: pzmyers@gmail.com
    Received: by 10.100.126.5 with SMTP id y5cs262374anc; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:08:03 -0700 (PDT)

    Received: by 10.65.237.15 with SMTP id o15mr14501258qbr.56.1215954482483; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:08:02 -0700 (PDT)

    Received: from mtain-a.tc.umn.edu (mtain-a.tc.umn.edu [134.84.119.205]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id u2si9779510pyb.16.2008.07.13.06.08.01; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:08:02 -0700 (PDT)

    Received: from 1800flowers.int (mail2.800-flowers.net [205.153.87.31]) by mtain-a.tc.umn.edu (UMN smtpd) with ESMTP for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 08:08:01 -0500 (CDT)

    Received: from ([10.180.1.74]) by CPNYMAIL02.1800flowers.int with ESMTP id 5202711.34123806; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:07:31 -0400

  363. #365 John C. Randolph
    July 13, 2008

    Benjamin,

    The preponderance of evidence does seem to indicate that this message came from Melanie Kroll’s computer, but we don’t know for a fact that she’s the only person with access to that machine. Could be an idiot co-worker, could be a janitor with an axe to grind, or even a rival who wants her fired.

    Until and unless someone contacts Melanie Kroll and asks her directly whether she committed this crime (yes, transmitting threats is a crime), then we really don’t know who did this.

    What is appropriate is to report the matter to management at 1-800-FLOWERS, and have them take it up with local law enforcement.

    -jcr

  364. #366 Dave W.
    July 13, 2008

    Comment #62 is exactly the sort of thing that should be bouncing all over the intertubes. Brandon, you’ve got the sort of moral fiber that’s been lacking in every other Catholic whom I’ve seen address this issue (can’t say I’ve read everything, but hey). Bravo, sir!

  365. #367 Dlux
    July 13, 2008

    @Peter: Boy, you really told him/her! Next time I get any threatening emails you’ll be the first person I’ll call for electronic revenge.

  366. #368 Foxfire
    July 13, 2008

    @Goldfishflakes re#350

    I read the post at FriendlyAtheist.com and didn’t see it as a roast, just an opinion that PZ’s approach (desecrating a “consecrated” cracker) would not be productive to resolving the secular vs religious issue. Personally, I agree with Hemant and I also continue to adore PZ. Just because I like and respect PZ Myers doesn’t mean I think he is always correct on the best way to approach a situation (usually I agree with him and not always).

    This is the first time I’ve posted on the Cracker “Crime” and I can only say the unfolding course of events boggles my mind. It reinforces my belief that we humans are not intrinsically rational.

    As for me….I will send a brief one-page letter to Mr. Bruininks letting him know how much I appreciate PZ’s blog.

    P.S. regarding Bill Donohue – everytime I hear that name I am reminded of the South Park “hare-club-for-men” (I don’t know the actual title) episode ;-)

  367. #369 shonny
    July 13, 2008

    Maybe –just maybe– I am wrong, but I think the shit’s gonna hit the fan up at 1800FLOWERS. Just waiting.

    Though maybe someone in the US should also tip off some papers? Because the behaviour of the cat’lickers should be in the public interest.

    Here in Australia the Chief Pedophile (aka the ‘pope) is attending the World Youth Day.
    Not all Aussies find it so enchanting, http://www.writeone.com.au/WYD2008.htm as there seems to be competition about getting the message across to the cat’lickers that the leaders of their religion stink, including the head of the Aussie cat’lickers, the protector of cat’licking pedophiles, cardinal Pell.

  368. #370 Andrew Skegg
    July 13, 2008

    Ahhh – the warm glow of Christian love.

  369. #371 Rob
    July 13, 2008

    Send email to 1800flowers and let them sort it out. It’s their server.

    rggrant@1800flowers.com

    The email is real. The IP address matches. I have confirmed this with the company.

  370. #372 Paul Lundgren
    July 13, 2008

    There’s an easier way to lock a Windows computer. Hold down the “Windows Key,” and strike the letter “L”. screen locked, no C-A-D needed.

    Cheers!

    PS: This is a great reason why I believe in posting under your real name. It at least imposes a modicum of restraint.

  371. #373 mandrake
    July 13, 2008

    Interesting that many 1800flowers people work from home. Fewer possible people with access but way less security.
    Wonder if she has kids?
    “Now, dear, Mommy’s a little tired because she had to spend all day defending herself because someone, I’m not going to say who, thought it was FUNNY TO SEND THREATENING EMAIL – I’m going to lie down with a headache. Wait till your father gets home.”

  372. #374 Dutch Delight
    July 13, 2008

    With so many “new” people saying things that are rather silly, it would really help if SB would get us some identifying hashes, even if they were just ip or hostname based. ASAP.

    I know I’ve seen more from the ugly insides of Kenny’s head then I ever wanted to know.

  373. #375 Brandon
    July 13, 2008

    For those who are interested, tonight at work/church, I led a discussion with individuals who are on the process of becoming Catholic.

    The topic: Acting your faith. How the Word (aka our faith) will be judged by others by the words you use.

    Everyone there thought threats and hate mail were completely wrong. I can’t do anything about those crazy Catholics running around, but Lord help me, I’ll do my best that new Catholics realize that to have faith means to act it.

  374. #376 John C. Randolph
    July 13, 2008

    Brandon,

    “My personal opinion is that my belief does not require you to believe as I do.”

    That sounds rather more like a buddhist position than a christian one. I’m not knocking your position on this of course, but I’m not aware of anything in the bible that admonishes christians to leave their neighbors to believe as they see fit.

    Of course, there is that “go into your closet to pray” bit, which admonishes believers not to make a great public display of their alleged piety.

    -jcr

  375. #377 Brandon
    July 13, 2008

    While I’m posting, I’m offline for the night. Have a good one folks.

  376. #378 Goldfishflakes
    July 13, 2008

    @foxfire #368

    Hemant is a moderate and personally, moderates make me ill…whether they be religious moderates or atheist moderates. They simply cannot be productive as moderates. Now, I do not believe that everyone has to be an ass to get things done either. But, you do have to take a strong stand when it comes to serious matters.

    I did not say that I would have said the same things as PZ said…or how he said it…but the underlying message…yes, I agree. And I think we should stop roasting one another and get together on core issues and actually get productive as a movement. Religion is hurting people…always has and always will. It needs to be brough down about a thousand levels.

    I applaud people like PZ for being willing to stand up and speak when others are crouching behind their desks at home.

    Hemant has an opportunity to help get a message out, but instead he is criticizing others for doing just that.

  377. #379 Susannah
    July 13, 2008

    I Googled 1800flowers.com, and this gave me a giggle:

    Employment Opportunties at 1-800-FLOWERS.COM
    There is no better job than bringing a smile to millions of people. Join the 1-800-FLOWERS.COM team today!

    … and bring a smile by threatening to beat someones’ brains it. That’ll do it.

  378. #380 Brandon
    July 13, 2008

    One last comment, couldn’t resist.

    jcr@376:

    Brandon,

    “My personal opinion is that my belief does not require you to believe as I do.”

    That sounds rather more like a buddhist position than a christian one. I’m not knocking your position on this of course, but I’m not aware of anything in the bible that admonishes christians to leave their neighbors to believe as they see fit.

    Of course, there is that “go into your closet to pray” bit, which admonishes believers not to make a great public display of their alleged piety.

    -jcr

    I’ll be honest, I can’t pull up a quote to justify me on this one. My faith says I must evangelize it to others (“Go forth and baptize all nations…”), but my faith does have a famous quote from St. Francis, “Preach the Gospel at all times, and when needed, use words.”

    In other words, the way I act is how I try to evangelize to others. If I act in a way that impresses people and they want to know why I act the way I do, fantastic.

    I don’t feel that I need to yell out to everyone I pass “Jesus Christ is Lord!” or anything like that.

    Hopefully that explains my point better.

    Really offline for the night now.

  379. #381 Mike
    July 13, 2008

    By the way, if PZ does actually “desecrate” the crackers, he’ll be demonstrating the opposite of his claim that they’re “just crackers.” Smash the idol, and you’re agreeing with your opponents that it’s more than an “ordinary chunk of matter”, even if hardly what it is claimed to be.
    Glen D

    -

    The liberation of the human mind has rarely been furthered by men of solemnity, but rather by the freeliving people who heaved dead cats into religious sanctuaries, and happily went on with their business; proving to all men that doubt, after all, was safe – that the god in the sanctuary was a fraud. One laugh is worth ten thousand syllogisms. ~H.L. Mencken

  380. #382 Mark
    July 13, 2008

    PZ,

    You act like these threats are simply annoying to you, like a new type of spam. You’ve been in this game longer than most, so I guess I defer to your judgment. Perhaps these messages communicate nothing more than outrage.

    But, please, try to follow-through on reporting them. While it would be sad to see a hastily written, angry e-mail ruin someone’s life, at the same time these (death) threats should not be treated so casually.

    I might think differently if you were a faceless online personality blogging from an undisclosed location. You, however, use your real name, you make public appearances, we know what you look like and where you work. You describe your weekly routine, and I seem to recall you describing your home town closely enough that I feel like it would be easy to show up on your lawn. Your real life is connected to the receiving-end of these threats.

    The sender really has to learn that if these were intended as idle threats, meant to clog your in-box with anger and swear words, then they really can’t take the form of threats against things that, realistically, could be in danger. If you want your threats to be clearly idle, you have to keep them hollow. When you make a realistic threat that you have no intention of performing, then you are sowing terror. So, either these people are potential killers or they are terrorists. (Yes, I did it: I dropped the T bomb.)

    PZ, time to sick the dept. of homeland security on these Christian terrorists.

  381. #383 D
    July 13, 2008

    but I’m not aware of anything in the bible that admonishes christians to leave their neighbors to believe as they see fit.

    In one of Paul’s letters he does tell the recipients not to bother with non-believers. It is in the context that the world’s about to end so it isn’t worth the bother to do a bunch of stuff though. I don’t recall which book/chapter/verse it is (might not even be one of Paul’s).

  382. #384 dinkum
    July 13, 2008

    Goldfishflakes,

    If you hurt somebody’s feelings, you aren’t being “friendly,” which would probably be a domain name violation, or some such. Or maybe even Conspiracy to Consider the Abstract Possibility of Inciting the Temptation to Infringe on Somebody’s First Amendment Rights, Kind Of. Dunno, I’m not a lawyer.

  383. #385 Kel
    July 13, 2008

    Not all Aussies find it so enchanting, http://www.writeone.com.au/WYD2008.htm as there seems to be competition about getting the message across to the cat’lickers that the leaders of their religion stink, including the head of the Aussie cat’lickers, the protector of cat’licking pedophiles, cardinal Pell.

    I’m so glad I’m not going to be in and around Sydney this week, putting up with WYD supporters on my last trip in May was bad enough.

  384. #386 Goldfishflakes
    July 13, 2008

    @dinkum #384

    LMAO!

  385. #387 Steven
    July 13, 2008

    Hi PZ,

    You should report these e-mails to the FBI. I think these types of e-mails are quite illegal.

    Regards

    Steven

  386. #388 mandrake
    July 13, 2008

    You know, I have to agree that you should be careful, and report these threats. I used to escort patients from their cars to an abortion clinic, past protesters. A few were really crazy. One frequently insisted that he was going to hold us down and “bleed the Satan out of us.” We really didn’t take it seriously, but a few years later (at different clinics) two people were shot and killed and one was killed by a nail bomb. Yeah, it’s *probably* okay, but there’s always the times when it isn’t.

  387. #389 Kristine
    July 13, 2008

    @92 You obviously never met my mother.

    Why, no, I haven’t. Maybe you should move out sometime.

  388. #390 genesgalore
    July 13, 2008

    ya’ll are allowed to sing along to the wizard of oz and contribute your own lyrics: DINGDONG!!! your god is dead…your wicked god..your mean old god. hey DINGDONG, your wicked god is dead.

  389. #391 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    I think it was obvious to most people that PZ was being facetious when he solicited communion wafers. I personally never thought he was serious about desecrating one. But Donohue had to have a tantrum over it, and look where we are 7000+ comments later, with 5/6 death threats (depending on if you count that last email a death threat) and the job of at least one person (at 1-800-FLOWERS) in jeopardy.

    Aggression just begets aggression and never gets you anywhere. An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind, as Ghandi said.

  390. #392 E.V.
    July 13, 2008

    Let me stop and Point out that there are two people who go by Dutch
    Dutch Hendrick(?) the TROLL
    Dutch Delight – A peach of a pharyngulite.
    All Dutches aren’t created equally.

  391. #393 bybelknap, FCD
    July 13, 2008

    @ MAJeff #10
    Always enjoy your posts Jeff. Shorter version of yours and an old favorite of mine: There’s nothing wrong with sucking as long as it’s done well.

  392. #394 A boy named Sue
    July 13, 2008

    So it’s less of an insult to Jesus to chew him up, swallow him, dissolve him in acid, turn him into poo then flush him down the toilet?

  393. #395 Goldfishflakes
    July 13, 2008

    An eye for an eye…the world may go blind, but then it just starts in after the nose. lol

  394. #396 Chris (in Columbus)
    July 13, 2008

    Wow, the love of Christ! Praise God!

  395. #397 TSC
    July 13, 2008

    I’m surprised Michael Korn’s dumb ass hasn’t caught wind of WaferGate.

  396. #398 JPOnion
    July 13, 2008

    I only read half the comments, but for those saying it’s more likely somebody used her email because any emails to her come back saying she’s on vacation…at least at my company, a lot of people still check, or at the very least use, their work email while on vacation via blackberry. I’m not entirely sure if it’ll look like it was sent from within the company network, but it’s a thought at least.

  397. #399 Enkidu
    July 13, 2008

    Well, if that 1-800-Flowers email turns out to be from an actual employee, I hope those in charge reprimand the author and force him to write a letter of apology to Dr. Myers.
    He’s clearly unhinged, uneducated and dangerous.

    I agree . . . firing the asshole, well, who does that help? The asshole will be a bigger asshole, he’ll blame PZ and atheists all the more, his family will likely drop into poverty.

  398. #400 deang
    July 13, 2008

    PZ says: they are defending what they hold sacred in angry terms, and at the same time telling me I have to deface what Muslims hold sacred.

    It is so strange that they do that. It’s like they don’t have a logical bone in their body. Reminds me of Americans who respond to criticisms of the US by demanding that the critic stop scrutinizing the US and start criticizing whatever country is the enemy du jour.

  399. #401 E.V.
    July 13, 2008

    And let me say, while I have great affection for many of you, I freakin’ love Digital Cuttlefish.

  400. #402 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 13, 2008

    I’m sure this has been addressed but I can’t read through the whole comment thread. I’ve already read all of the others ones.

    Spoofing the address of the company etc.. isn’t that hard. I get millions, yes actual millions, of spoofed emails a year through my mail server.

    That does not mean that this didn’t come from 1-800-flowers.

    now if this has been addressed, then ignore this.

  401. #403 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 13, 2008

    And let me say, while I have great affection for many of you, I freakin’ love Digital Cuttlefish.

    I think you speak for everyone.

    i tolerate most of you, ;) but I LOVE D.C.

  402. #404 Annick
    July 13, 2008

    Apparently, the address is valid, if not stolen. I got this in response to my inquiry from mkroll@1800flowers.com

    De : Melanie Kroll (mkroll@1800FLOWERS.com)
    Envoyé : lun. 14/07/08 02:55
    À : Marie-Annick Jean

    I will be out of the office Friday July 4 and will return on Monday July 14. I will respond to you then. Have a fabulous weekend.

  403. #405 S.Scott
    July 13, 2008

    @Karen #301 … You think YOU have it bad? … My husband’s name is Dave Scott! LoL!

    Now if this makes anyone wonder … NO – He’s not the one you’re thinking of.

  404. #406 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    BTW, has anybody noticed that PZ has explicitly stated he doesn’t want these folks to be harassed, yet Donohue so far has not implored his fellow Catholics to stop with the death threats? Of course, he offered a veiled threat to prosecute if he should receive any (by “connecting the dots” back to PZ), but it’s always about him. What an attention whoring fuckwit.

  405. #407 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 13, 2008

    People, I think it is poor form to be emailing 1-800-flowers. PZ is perfectly capable of handling this himself.

    If mkroll is just an unwitting participant in this whole incident of dumbfuckery then it is not fair to be slamming her or her IT people with the inquiries.

  406. #408 decrepitoldfool
    July 13, 2008

    Paul Lundgren; “There’s an easier way to lock a Windows computer. Hold down the “Windows Key,” and strike the letter “L”. screen locked, no C-A-D needed. Cheers!

    (emphasis mine)

    Doh! I ‘knew’ that but forgot, being an old DOS dog. CAD comes as naturally to my fingers as clicking a pen. But however they do it, I recommend people lock their computers when away from the keyboard. So someone won’t send nasty emails to strangers on the interwebs.

  407. #410 JD
    July 13, 2008

    Neural T wrote,

    Well, mkroll@1800flowers.com is a real address. I just sent an email to it and got this auto-reply:

    BTW, did the ip addy in the headers from the email you received from her match the one sent to PZ?

  408. #411 mona
    July 13, 2008

    I like how the second message ends with “making the world a better place, one message at a time” as its automated ad. It’s… something. a little creepy. I’d laugh if it were less violent.

  409. #412 N.K.
    July 13, 2008

    I hope that first email wasn’t a phish or hack, and someone can find out who sent it.

    At #57: Yes. He does deserve to be fired.

    People need to learn that there actions have repercussions. If people feel that they can just send vulgar death threats on a whim and not experience any consequences, then they need to be corrected. If a dog shits on a carpet, you don’t just say, “Wonderful! Go on with your livelihood!” If that were common practice, no dogs would be house-trained.

    It’s for his own good, and for the good of the people he may choose to threaten.

    (Okay, I was late. But I had to. I needed to.)

  410. #413 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    Here’s the relevant parts of the mail header:

    Received: from 1800flowers.int (mail2.800-flowers.net [205.153.87.31])

    Received: from ([10.180.1.74])
    by CPNYMAIL02.1800flowers.int with ESMTP id 5202711.34143246;
    Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:25:58 -0400

    Looks like it came from the same place, CPNYMAIL02.1800flowers.int. That’s the internal company mail server.

  411. #414 eric
    July 13, 2008

    Just so everyone knows, 1-800-flowers has free e-mail. If you go to their website, they have a sign up at the bottom right hand corner of the site. This means that person probably does not work for 1-800-flowers.

    That’s used to sign up for their mailing list; you don’t get an email address in their domain with that.

  412. #415 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 13, 2008

    I’m surprised Michael Korn’s dumb ass hasn’t caught wind of WaferGate.

    I may be wrong but I get the impression that Korn[hole] lean’s more away from Rome and towards having lunch with Luther or Calvin.

  413. #416 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    It’s one thing to spoof an email address, even a real email address. You just have to know what it is. It’s another to spoof all the routing information. It would take someone with an advanced understanding of internet mail handling AND specific knowledge of the 1-800-FLOWERS mail system.

    I don’t think the semi-illiterate dimwit who sent that email is that sophisticated. I think we can assign a high degree of certainty to the proposition that whoever sent it had access to Melanie Kroll’s email account.

  414. #417 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 13, 2008

    renegade apostrophe… KILL IT

  415. #418 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 13, 2008

    I don’t think the semi-illiterate dimwit who sent that email is that sophisticated. I think we can assign a high degree of certainty to the proposition that whoever sent it had access to Melanie Kroll’s email account.

    I wholeheartedly agree, but I also think a measure of restraint is in order. Every one jumping off the deepend without any substantial explanation from FLOWERS is kind of how “they” act.

    Lets be civil until we have confirmation, then tear them to pieces.

  416. #419 Galactus78
    July 13, 2008

    Wow…I guess that whole “Turn the other cheek…” thing is tossed out the window the second someone makes fun of their magic Jesus crackers.

  417. #420 Dlux
    July 13, 2008

    #402: “I’m sure this has been addressed but I can’t read through the whole comment thread.”

    The problem with linear comment threads, especially long ones like these, is there’s no summary of information as time passes. If you want to be diligent and follow what’s going on you have to commit hours (in some cases) catching up, and then the thread keeps growing in the meantime. But then there are those who simply pile on at the end and repeat knee-jerk statements after they’ve been explained or debunked earlier. So based on some rapid-fire sleuthing of the mail headers and sheer speculation, we’ve seen that the first message might have been spoofed, was written by a man, written by someone stealing another’s account, written by a Pharyngula supporter posing as a crazy christian, written by a ‘free email’ account hosted by 800-flowers.com, written by a woman, written by the woman’s husband, etc., etc. And then the responses have been likewise scattershot, *almost* to the point of returning a similar threat (give it time…)

    Mob behavior is not the exclusive province of any one group. It’s tough to temper reactions in a (generally) open forum like this. It’s refreshing to see at least some people admit that they haven’t followed the entire thread before offering new information.

    Unfortunately the fallout from this may not reflect well upon the people here ‘only trying to help’. We could all be very wrong (except for the origins of the mail headers, although nothing is 100% certain yet) and some innocent person(s) may have a very bad Monday morning. We can only wait and see…

  418. #421 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    Let’s be civil? Nobody has DONE anything yet. A few people have contacted the company to let them know about the incident. That’s it.

    I merely emailed her to tell her that I was going to report the incident. That’s when I got the auto-response. I didn’t harass her. I hope nobody else did either.

  419. #422 Doubting Foo
    July 13, 2008

    This thread needs some Monty Python:
    [Matthias is about to be stoned to death]
    Matthias: Look, I don’t think it ought to be blasphemy, just saying “Jehovah”.
    [Everyone gasps]
    Jewish Official: You’re only making it worse for yourself!
    Matthias: Making it worse?! How can it be worse?! Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah!
    Jewish Official: I’m warning you. If you say ‘Jehovah’ once more–
    [Mrs. A. throws a rock at the Jewish Official]
    Jewish Official: Right! Who threw that stone? Come on. Who threw that?
    Crowd: She did! It was her! [suddenly speaking as men] He! He. Him. Him. Him. Him. Him. Him.
    Jewish Official: Was it you?
    Mrs. A.: Yes.
    Jewish Official: Right…
    Mrs. A.: Well, you did say ‘Jehovah.’
    Crowd: Ah! Ooh!…
    [Crowd throws rocks at Mrs. A.]
    Jewish Official (stamping up and down): Stop! Stop, will you?! Stop that! Stop it! Now, look! No one is to stone anyone until I blow this whistle! Do you understand?! Even, and I want to make this absolutely clear, even if they do say ‘Jehovah’!
    Crowd: Ooh…!
    [Jewish Official gets stoned to death]

  420. #423 JD
    July 13, 2008

    Looks like it came from the same place, CPNYMAIL02.1800flowers.int. That’s the internal company mail server.

    As someone said before, the most parsimonious explanation is that the threatening email did in fact orginate from her email addy and was routed through the corporate server located in Westbury, NY.

    Was the internal, private ip addy the same as well? (in the original email the private ip was 10.180.1.74) Not that it’s definitive as most private ips are dynamically allocated. Still would interesting if that also matched.

  421. #424 SteveM
    July 13, 2008

    One analogy that came to mind is that when I signed the requisite paperwork, my house stopped being “a house” and became “my house”. However, you could’ve camped out in front of it with all the equipment you wanted, and wouldn’t have been able to pinpoint the moment when this transformation occurred, or notice any difference between “a house” and “my house”.

    This is really good, and I’m surprised no one else has commented on it. It makes much more sense that transubstantiation is not the reality of the host changing but the receiver’s attitude or perception of the host becoming the flesh of Christ. And even then, not in a literal sense of it becoming meat but instead becoming the essence of Christ. And this is what it means to become “in communion” with Christ. That by consuming some of His essence you actually incorporating His essence into yours. I think if the Church taught this it could still be just as miraculous to the faithful without sounding quite so ridiculous to non-believers.

  422. #425 Caucasian Jesus
    July 13, 2008

    Mmmmmmmmm…. kroll………

    Makes me want a donut. Or some Christians.

  423. #426 mandrake
    July 13, 2008

    revbdc@ 417

    hahaha! excellent response. If you haven’t read “The Eyre Affair” you might check it out:
    http://www.librarything.com/work/4921
    word-eating irregular-verb-hating monsters with striped socks.

  424. #427 Bride of Shrek OM
    July 13, 2008

    If Ms Melanie is indeed innocent, I do hope that she has been otherwise keeping her nose clean on the intertoobz because something tells me she’s going to have the most scrutinised computer in the US on Monday.

    As an aside, if she is innocent, can anyone think of a shittier “return to work after a holiday” scenario?

  425. #428 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    JD,

    Yes, it was the same. But I don’t think that’s the ip of the original computer that the message came from (otherwise it wouldn’t be the same for the auto-response). That’s an ip within the 1-800-FLOWERS corporate LAN (probably the ip of the mail server, CPNYMAIL). Try to do an IP geolocation on it. I did. It doesn’t map anywhere.

  426. #429 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 13, 2008

    Let’s be civil? Nobody has DONE anything yet. A few people have contacted the company to let them know about the incident. That’s it.

    I merely emailed her to tell her that I was going to report the incident. That’s when I got the auto-response. I didn’t harass her. I hope nobody else did either.

    Fine. All I am saying is it isn’t necessary. You may be one person but who knows how many people have done the same thing but not mentioned it?

    Did PZ co-opt any of our assistance in tracking down this nefarious curd (handlebar mustache twirl and everything)? No. if you took it upon yourself to try and suss out the details of the situation, ok fine. No big deal.

    What I am saying, as someone who works as the front line contact for massive amounts of email at my job…

    let PZ handle it. He’s totally capable and has requested we do not contact them

  427. #430 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    Unfortunately, the originating IP in the first message was scrubbed by the mail server. This may be because it was posted within the LAN. ie, somebody sent it from the company offices.

  428. #431 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 13, 2008

    As an aside, if she is innocent, can anyone think of a shittier “return to work after a holiday” scenario?

    exactly

  429. #432 Danny
    July 13, 2008

    Thanks PZ! Sending some good ‘ol spam their way now. Keep exposing these hypocrites as much as possible.

  430. #433 Dr Benway
    July 13, 2008

    Well, the last time I got threats like the ones PZ recieved, I talked to the local DA and shortly after that I got a call from an investigator at the state AG’s office. The AG was very interested. They’d been trying to nail the guy for several years. He had 17 charges pending, including attempted murder.

    My point: those emails are evidence of criminal threatening. The police have access to background info that may be relevant. The police should investigate. Everyone else ought to avoid muddying the waters.

  431. #434 JD
    July 13, 2008

    That’s an ip within the 1-800-FLOWERS corporate LAN (probably the ip of the mail server, CPNYMAIL).

    Yes, I see that it was given in your post and I missed it (sorry about that).

    Try to do an IP geolocation on it. I did. It doesn’t map anywhere.

    It won’t because it’s part of the range of ips assigned by IANA to private networks. Routers on the Internet are configured to discard packets from them.

    10.0.0.0 – 10.255.255.255 (10/8 prefix)
    172.16.0.0 – 172.31.255.255 (172.16/12 prefix)
    192.168.0.0 – 192.168.255.255 (192.168/16 prefix)

  432. #435 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 13, 2008

    Thanks PZ! Sending some good ‘ol spam their way now. Keep exposing these hypocrites as much as possible.

    sigh, again

  433. #436 JC
    July 13, 2008

    Obviously, the person has some issues, but how is this any different than what Prof. Myers said to begin with?

    He threatened physical assault against both Jesus Christ and the Holy Father.

    Is there any chance that some of these ‘threats’ are merely facetious?

    In any case, Christians and pro-lifers get this kind of garbage every day from people like you. Normally, we don’t engage in it. You get a few oddballs in any group, though.

  434. #437 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 13, 2008

    He threatened physical assault against both Jesus Christ and the Holy Father.

    Wrong.

    IT

    IS

    JUST
    A
    FUCKING
    CRACKER

    You are full of shit too about your last point.

  435. #438 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    how is this any different than what Prof. Myers said to begin with?

    He threatened physical assault against both Jesus Christ and the Holy Father.

    Seems to me that threatening real, living people is completely different from threatening imaginary people. Sorry, but Jesus Christ and the Holy Father are not recognized citizens of the US by our government.

  436. #439 robotaholic
    July 13, 2008

    are you fucking out of your mind JC? – it’s a cracker, it has no real significance, there is no fucking body involved- DO YOU UNDERSTAND CHEEZIT! YOU FUCKING IDIOT

  437. #440 JD
    July 13, 2008

    JC worte,

    He threatened physical assault against both Jesus Christ and the Holy Father.

    He did? Where? When?….oh you mean the cracker.

  438. #441 truth machine, OM
    July 13, 2008

    This does not fall within that fallacy. Catholicism has a code of moral conduct that excludes sending hate mail and a person who is following the teachings of Catholicism would not send hate mail that like. Yes, Christians/Catholics do not always follow their moral code (we call it a sin);

    You’ve already contradicted yourself, Brandon. What determines whether a person is a Christian or Catholic is not whether they follow their moral code, else there would be no sinners. Therefore, to say that people who qualify by way of believing in the divinity of Christ or by membership in the church are not truly Christian or Catholic, or have “no idea what actual Christianity/Catholicism is about” is to commit the fallacy. What “actual” Christianity/Catholicism is about is the actual behavior of real Christians/Catholics, not the fantasized behavior of imagined Christians/Catholics, or the behavior that is prescribed by the code of conduct that real live sinning Christians/Catholics only occasionally follow.

  439. #442 john
    July 13, 2008

    he had TAKE-OUT – and besides, you can’t threaten someone who’s already dead right? – gosh you people can’t assume that anyone else shares your delusions

  440. #443 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 13, 2008

    You’ve already contradicted yourself, Brandon. What determines whether a person is a Christian or Catholic is not whether they follow their moral code, else there would be no sinners. Therefore, to say that people who qualify by way of believing in the divinity of Christ or by membership in the church are not truly Christian or Catholic, or have “no idea what actual Christianity/Catholicism is about” is to commit the fallacy. What “actual” Christianity/Catholicism is about is the actual behavior of real Christians/Catholics, not the fantasized behavior of imagined Christians/Catholics, or the behavior that is prescribed by the code of conduct that real live sinning Christians/Catholics only occasionally follow.

    Ouch.

    You need an ice pack Brandon?

  441. #444 Ichthyic
    July 13, 2008

    let PZ handle it. He’s totally capable and has requested we do not contact them

    LOL

    it’s like posting an idiotic comment from a known troll, and then asking people not to respond to the troll.

    not

    gonna

    happen

  442. #445 Neural T
    July 13, 2008

    Catholics don’t have the right to be protected from threats of violence to their god any more than a tin-foiled street barker has the right to be protected from threats to the aliens that visit him.

    Or at least that’s how it should be. Who knows how the law has been crafted in favor of religion lunatics.

  443. #446 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 13, 2008

    LOL

    it’s like posting an idiotic comment from a known troll, and then asking people not to respond to the troll.

    not

    gonna

    happen

    You’re right. What the fuck was I thinking. This is teh intartubes.

  444. #447 speedwell
    July 13, 2008

    Hey, I have a little statue of Shiva Nataraja I’ll go draw a mustache on if it helps the cause. :)

  445. #448 Kel
    July 14, 2008

    He threatened physical assault against both Jesus Christ and the Holy Father.

    No he didn’t. He said he’d desecrate a cracker. Now you aren’t actually suggesting that Jesus IS a cracker… oh wait.

  446. #449 Siddharth
    July 14, 2008

    As long as the email to the company is civil and polite, then I don’t see the problem.

    However, it’s going to be difficult to enforce that. What’s preventing some creationist retard to send an uncivil and deragatory mail to that email address *pretending* to be PZ’s blog reader? I think it’s best if PZ had handled this privately, and contacted the police.

    Oh well, too late for that now. Have to sit back and see what happens.

  447. #450 speedwell
    July 14, 2008

    If that isn’t good enough, I have an old copy of AD&D Deities and Demigods lying around here that I can spill some Dr. Pepper on semi-sorta-on-purpose. That ought to take care of much of the remaining pantheons in one dunk.

  448. #451 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    Christians and pro-lifers get this kind of garbage every day from people like you.

    oh?

    since PZ has been kind enough to open up his email bag, why not do the same?

    you’re a xian and a “pro-lifer” (HA!), right?

    so you must be getting death threats via email on a daily basis, right?

    I want to see what a death threat to a xian from an atheist looks like.

  449. #452 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    so you must be getting death threats via email on a daily basis, right?

    I want to see what a death threat to a xian from an atheist looks like.

    *waits while he changes the wording in the email he sent to PZ

  450. #453 robotaholif
    July 14, 2008

    PZ never asked that the writers of those two email be harrassed, he just said he would post it…what people choose to do is up to them – :)

    he probably ment to be biblical …

    if you ask me, it’s “eye for an eye”

    muahaha

  451. #454 Dr Benway
    July 14, 2008

    If the FBI get involved, nothing anyone types here or emails to the principles is teh intartubes. It’s all real life. And no one is anonymous.

  452. #455 Norman Doering
    July 14, 2008

    SteveM wrote:

    I think if the Church taught this it could still be just as miraculous to the faithful without sounding quite so ridiculous to non-believers.

    Nope, it actually sounds even more batshit crazy than standard transcombobulation. It’s solipsistic; if you think it’s real, then it’s real for you because there is no reality.

  453. #456 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    If the FBI get involved, nothing anyone types here or emails to the principles is teh intartubes. It’s all real life. And no one is anonymous.

    Yep. Hopefully no one is being a dumbass.

  454. #457 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    You’re right. What the fuck was I thinking. This is teh intartubes.

    the sentiment was good, though, and someone had to say it, after all.

    I can’t fault the people who say: “Please, don’t respond to the troll”, because if nobody said it…

    Still, it seemed a bit strange to me that PZ would post these “without comment” in the manner he did, then ask everyone NOT to respond to them much later.

    like putting up a target at a gun range, and failing to request that people not shoot at it until after several people already have.

    oversight? Perhaps due to being particularly tired after a long field trip and much air travel.

  455. #458 truth machine, OM
    July 14, 2008

    He threatened physical assault against both Jesus Christ and the Holy Father.

    First, that claim is only valid when speaking to Catholics; for non-Catholics it has no purchase, as they don’t believe that the wafer is God’s bod. Second, even if the wafer is part of the body of Jesus Christ, no manipulation of the wafer can count as “physical assault” against the immortal all powerful creator of the universe. Even if the triune God is capable of physical suffering, as presumably it chose to be when it took human form, that can’t be by way of the wafer, which has no nerve endings. I really rather doubt that it’s part of Catholic dogma that God feels physical pain if you bite into the wafer. Your claim here may well be sacrilegious; it certainly isn’t serious, and will not be treated as such.

  456. #459 Hessenroots
    July 14, 2008

    @ 451

    I’m a bit curious as well. Sadly I have a feeling it might not be any better then some of the ones we’ve seen aimed at PZ.

    Not all theists are complete batshit nutters, much like not all atheists are reasonable, laid back folks like the ones I know.

    I’ll be waiting for 1800-Flowers to release a “Sorry about the death threat” gift basket sometime soon (or will it be the “I’M GOING TO KILL YOUR FAMILY!!!” pick-me-up bouquet?)

  457. #460 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    Have to sit back and see what happens.

    hmm, maybe that’s exactly what PZ was thinking too.

    “let’s just see what happens”

    Hard to say one way of dealing with this is better than the other, without a lot of data on the subject. Could be an experiment.

    Personally, I would have just forwarded them to my IT dept. for identification and follow-up with authorities as needed, but then I’m also not a public-figure-at-large.

  458. #461 Capital Dan
    July 14, 2008

    I merely emailed her to tell her that I was going to report the incident. That’s when I got the auto-response. I didn’t harass her. I hope nobody else did either.

    Posted by: Neural T

    And still, what you did was completely out of line. The threats were not made against you. They were not sent to you. You are a spectator in all of this, and yet you felt obligated to email this person and tell them that you are going to report them for something that doesn’t have a single thing to do with you.

    Did you stop to think that since PZ didn’t ask for yours or anyone’s help, he doesn’t really need yours or anyone’s help?

    Seriously. Why are you guys are taking it upon yourselves to harass this person for something that, not only doesn’t concern you, you’re not even sure they’re responsible.

    Astounding. And, embarrassing.

  459. #462 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    //Seriously. Why are you guys are taking it upon yourselves to harass this person for something that, not only doesn’t concern you, you’re not even sure they’re responsible.

    Astounding. And, embarrassing. //

    I couldnt agree more.

  460. #464 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    Oh for fucks sake.

  461. #465 Stephen Couchman
    July 14, 2008

    #216: “So far, NOT ONE SINGLE atheist has threatened violence.”

    Ah. Let me be the first, then.

    *ahem*

    If I read much more godsmacked screed trying to justify, defend, or make light of DEATH THREATS over BREAD and REMARKS ABOUT BREAD, I’m going to have to beat my own head against my desk until I have the attention span of a hyperactive feeder goldfish and the expressive ability of the average theistic Pharyngula troll.

    As for Donohue and his ilk, the worst thing I can wish on them is to be stranded in one another’s company long enough to discover the petty little points of dogma on which they disagree, so they can fall upon each other with greater ferocity than they’ve shown Webster Cook and Prof. Myers. If history has taught us anything, it’s that the only thing Catholics hate more than a non-Christian is the wrong kind of Christian.

  462. #466 Pimbok
    July 14, 2008

    It’s not harassment to tell a company that they may wish to investigate and confirm or deny the actions of an employee.

    If the employee did nothing wrong, their IT department should be able to figure that out quickly and publicly clear up the situation.

    If the employee did wrong, the company will know that they have an employee who feels it’s appropriate to use company resources to send deeply bigoted death threats.

    I have trouble construing any of that as harassment, though. Harassment would be if somebody posted Melanie’s home address or phone number and suggested some sort of vigilantism, but I haven’t seen anybody doing that.

  463. #467 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    #216: “So far, NOT ONE SINGLE atheist has threatened violence.”

    Ah. Let me be the first, then.

    I smell a quote-mine.

  464. #468 Phaedrus
    July 14, 2008

    I’m just surprised at how anybody that DUMB can manage to type on a keyboard to send a message like that in the first place.

  465. #469 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    Did you stop to think that since PZ didn’t ask for yours or anyone’s help, he doesn’t really need yours or anyone’s help?

    just to be clear though, PZ posted these without comment.

    He certainly could have (and apparently as an afterthought DID, in the comments) post his concerns about people emailing the senders.

    However, he did not originally do this.

    as to motive, looking back I see PZ said this:

    I was just thinking that maybe I should salt some of the more threatening ones away in a public place. So that’s why you’re seeing this. I’m also thinking it may deter some of the real crazies out there.

    which again, might have been a good thing to add to the original post (still would be, IMO, along with his admonitions).

    It’s been fun speculating.

  466. #470 Neural T
    July 14, 2008

    Capital Dan #461

    Neither am I going to sit idly by when someone gets DEATH THREATS. Law enforcement or company management don’t need PZ’s consent to do something about it (like the battered wife who keeps her mouth shut when the cops show up).

    You can sit around and do nothing when people get death threats. I won’t.

  467. #471 Capital Dan
    July 14, 2008

    It’s not harassment to tell a company that they may wish to investigate and confirm or deny the actions of an employee.

    Posted by: Pimbok

    And it’s your responsibility, because….?

    Are you under the impression that PZ isn’t capable of handling this himself? After all, how does this, in any way, concern you?

  468. #472 Doug Alder
    July 14, 2008

    As someone who deals with computer fraud on a daily basis I can tell you that PZ really does have a point about it being “faked”, in that the real owner of that email address at 1-800-flowers may very well be the victim of a his his own stupidity – surfing pron sites from work or opening nasty emails that made it past the corporate firewall. The result his work computer is p4n3d with a root kit on it (you don’t have to be a genius hacker to start your own bot net – the code is readily available on numerous sites and irc channels – or you can just buy access to one just as easily. I’ve quite often dealt with frauds committed by idiots that have control over someone else’s email accounts without that person knowing it – solely to intercept emails detailing their fraudulent actions (in my case the rental of data center servers) before the real user sees them and realizes something is wrong. So, while this is a less likely scenario in this case, it is still quite possible and should not be discounted. I hope the IT department of 1-800-flowers does a thorough audit of that workstation before they take any action against the holder of that email account.

  469. #473 raven
    July 14, 2008

    psycho moron:

    He threatened physical assault against both Jesus Christ and the Holy Father.

    1. Well he didn’t threaten Jesus and God.

    2. I would expect that Jesus/God the omnipotent creator of the universe should be able to take care of themselves in a brawl against a mere mortal like PZ Myers. Even that pretender Zeus, could just toss a lightening bolt at Myers and that would be it, crispy critters.

    3. In the event that Jesus and God have gotten old and feeble, they could press charges against Myers for threatening them. Hey, gods got rights in America too.

    4. The cracker is just a cracker after all, isn’t it? It doesn’t run around trying not to be eaten, it doesn’t hurl lightening bolts, it doesn’t call 911, and it doesn’t even get a lawyer and charge Myers with assault or menacing.

    5. Oddly enough, under the laws of all countries in the world, crackers are not considered people with full civil rights. My cat has more civil rights than a cracker. They are just considered common diety items.

    Well thanks for playing Who is the dumbest poster in the last 4 hours. You win a cracker.

  470. #474 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    vmcveigh@1800flowers.com

    ha! I knew it: 800-flowers is a front for extreme militia groups and terrorist bombers!

    /snark

  471. #475 Hessenroots
    July 14, 2008

    #216: “So far, NOT ONE SINGLE atheist has threatened violence.”

    Ah. Let me be the first, then.

    #467:”I smell a quote-mine.”

    ooOoooh allow me!

    “I have the attention span of a hyperactive feeder goldfish”

  472. #476 Dr Benway
    July 14, 2008

    Reading some posts above, I have the impression not everyone is aware that threatening to harm another person is a crime. In fact any threat communicated across state lines may become a federal crime.

    From the US Criminal Code 876c:

    Whoever knowingly so deposits or causes to be delivered as aforesaid, any communication with or without a name or designating mark subscribed thereto, addressed to any other person and containing any threat to kidnap any person or any threat to injure the person of the addressee or of another, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

    Five years of Nutraloaf no haz teh lulz.

  473. #477 Stephen Couchman
    July 14, 2008

    @467

    Ugh. Yeah, good point. Still, if my head and my desk get any better acquainted, there are going to be a bunch of little headdesks scampering around here soon, soiling my carpet and eating all my food.

  474. #478 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    Neither am I going to sit idly by when someone gets DEATH THREATS. Law enforcement or company management don’t need PZ’s consent to do something about it (like the battered wife who keeps her mouth shut when the cops show up).

    You can sit around and do nothing when people get death threats. I won’t.

    OH PLEASE. You you investigate murders in your town? Are you solving the shoplifting at the local five and dime?

    Don’t get all riled up. It was a simple let PZ handle it…. like he requested.

  475. #479 Capital Dan
    July 14, 2008

    You can sit around and do nothing when people get death threats. I won’t.

    Posted by: Neural T

    Don’t be a drama queen. I’m sure PZ knows how to handle these sorts of things. This isn’t the first time he’s gotten such threats.

    But, hey. Don’t let that stop you.

  476. #480 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    And it’s your responsibility, because….?

    because they see a crime and want to do something about it?

    don’t overdo your own admonitions.

    it really IS a bigger issue than just PZ

  477. #481 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    son of a whore.

    I fail at simple html tagging.

    FAIL. EPICALLY.

  478. #482 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    I fail at simple html tagging.

    mistakes, or not sure of the right tags?

  479. #483 Neural T
    July 14, 2008

    Capital DAn,

    Actually, let me rephrase what I wrote above.

    FUCK YOU. There’s a sizable chunk of us who are not going to let fellow atheists get intimidated by lunatics who threaten violence because we dare to offend their superstitions.

    We are going to make it clear that it’s not ok.

  480. #484 Blind Squirrel FCD
    July 14, 2008

    Jumping down to comment without reading the last 200+ comments: Yes I know these are death threats and you know these are death threats, but they are not legally threats because they do not have the form: “I am going to…”

    “I know where you live,” “You have 3 choices,” “I can break a man in half” are not actionable threats because they are implied, not stated. IANAL, but am I wrong?

  481. #485 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    mistakes, or not sure of the right tags?

    Fully a result of my fat fingering it. I know the code I just bang it out so fast and hit submit.

    I’m a dummy. I embrace it. My wife would agree.

  482. #486 JD
    July 14, 2008

    Neural T wrote,

    Neither am I going to sit idly by when someone gets DEATH THREATS. …
    You can sit around and do nothing when people get death threats. I won’t.

    Actually, this is a perfectly reasonable position. As has been pointed out throughout this thread, issuing death threats is a serious offense and needs to be treated as such. It certainly doesn’t need the consent or permission of the victim to be reported or to ask for a formal investigation.

  483. #487 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    mistakes, or not sure of the right tags?

    ah, nevermind, I see; you just put the end tag in the wrong place.

  484. #488 Dr Benway
    July 14, 2008

    I think it’s better to alert the relevant state or federal authorities rather than the alleged perpetrator’s IT dept. or employer.

    Evidence has a way of disappearing when people know the cops are on their way.

  485. #489 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    ah, nevermind, I see; you just put the end tag in the wrong place.

    Actually i more than likely mis-typed /blockquote to be something like /blokcquote

  486. #490 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    on the “implied” front:

    you don’t get to blaspheme and walk away from this. You have two choices my fucked up friend, first you can quit your job for the good of the children. Or you can get your brains beat in. I give you till the first of the month, get that resignation in cunt

    the threat is not implied, it seems personal to me.

    “I will give you until the end of the month to resign, or I will beat your brains in”

    is how I read that.

    you?

  487. #491 Stephen Couchman
    July 14, 2008

    #483

    Neural, chill. Read the thread thoroughly, plenty of people have already taken action on this whether PZ wants them to or not. You don’t have to jump on the “me too” wagon, it’s handled. Wait this out, watch for follow-up posts; PZ himself might have a better idea about how his loyal legion can be of use in this situation. Meanwhile, we don’t want to overreact and make him regret posting these emails.

  488. #492 scarshapedstar
    July 14, 2008

    “how did you even get a job at a collage.”

    Honestly, I think this is beautifully poetic, worthy of e.e. cummings. I’m picturing a little guy running around a world of magazine clippings, cleaning things up.

  489. #493 Kristjan Wager
    July 14, 2008

    Yes I know these are death threats and you know these are death threats, but they are not legally threats because they do not have the form: “I am going to…”

    “I know where you live,” “You have 3 choices,” “I can break a man in half” are not actionable threats because they are implied, not stated. IANAL, but am I wrong?

    Yes, you are wrong. Death threats can be implied – e.g. hanging a noose outside the house of some black people.

  490. #494 Ragutis
    July 14, 2008

    Peter @ #360:

    Way to go, dumbass. If you’d read the thread, you’d be aware that there’s some question as to whether Ms Kroll is the sender. It seems quite likely her email account has been abused without her knowledge or consent. So, there’s a good chance that you’ve sent your infantile, expletive laden rant to an innocent woman who’ll get a nice obscene slap in the face her first day back from vacation. Way to go. And great way to present yourself and your position. I mean, phrases such as “stupid ass dipshit redneck” and “pieces of shit like you ” really show just how different and more reasoned you are than the bigot who wrote the threat to PeeZed.

    Kevin: Fie! Get thee hence!

    And to anyone sending emails or signing people up for porn spam or anything else stupid and childish like that: A) It’s PZ’s issue, let him handle it. It’s not the first time he’s been threatened and he knows best how he wants it dealt with. Respect that. I’m sure he appreciates the support and good intentions, but it’s all best handled professionally which it seems some of you are not doing. Also, anything you do complicates the issue and it’s more threads that have to be followed and investigated. And B) as I mentioned to Peter above, some thought should be given to how we represent ourselves, the community ilk that’s grown around this blog, atheists, and those who support PZ’s freedom of expression and reject the hysterical and reactionary behavior of the Catholic fundies that started this whole thing. If we want to claim the high road, we have to follow it’s path.

    And finally, PZ, like I said, it’s your call, but I do feel that the authorities should be notified and given copies of all the threats you’ve received. They may all be cranks, kids, or loudmouths, but better safe than sorry. Also, a good scare like the FBI showing up “with a few questions” is probably a hell of a deterrent to any continuation of such behavior.

  491. #495 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    Neural T,

    dont get all hot under the collar mate.You are not the one those letters are adressed to to start with,and you and noone else knows at this point who wrote those mails.

    Last thing anyone should do is play around with whois and then start sending emails to strangers accusing them of sending death threats,or,for that matter,publishing some random names in a public forum,where these people might get into trouble for having their names rolled out here,having done absolutely nothing at all.

    Im all for going after lunatics making threats,but its for PZ,not you or anyone else here.

  492. #496 Capital Dan
    July 14, 2008

    Capital DAn,

    Actually, let me rephrase what I wrote above.

    FUCK YOU. There’s a sizable chunk of us who are not going to let fellow atheists get intimidated by lunatics who threaten violence because we dare to offend their superstitions.

    We are going to make it clear that it’s not ok.

    Posted by: Neural T

    You are sounding more and more like you just stepped in off the playground.

    As I read PZ’s comment here at #261:

    Everyone else: I really don’t like the idea of harassing either of these people. Let this stand as a record, nothing more — it’s just here in case there is an escalation.

    Posted by: PZ Myers | July 13, 2008 8:00 PM

    I don’t know. When the guy who actually is the victim of the crime that you guys are going so bat-shit crazy about tells me not to harass those responsible for these crimes, I’m thinking that most rational folks would respect that and step away and assume that he’s got things handled.

    You guys are acting just like the hordes of loons who came flying out of Donohue’s cave once the story of PZ’s criticism hit them. “Let’s write emails! Let’s get the person fired! Vengance vengance vengance!”

  493. #497 scarshapedstar
    July 14, 2008

    #490

    Yeah. I think that’s pretty clear cut.

    Imagine getting the following note:

    ***DISCLAIMER: THE FOLLOWING IS MEANT FOR ILLUSTRATIVE PURPOSES ONLY***

    “Sell your house and move away or it will be burned down. I give you until the end of the month.”

    ***END HYPOTHETICAL, ILLUSTRATIVE, NON-SERIOUS THREAT***

    I’m pretty sure that local law enforcement would be willing to act.

  494. #498 Kevin Burton
    July 14, 2008

    I sent their customer service an email asking for clarification.

    Obviously, this guy needs to be terminated for sending hate mail on company equipment and time.

    And for spelling ‘college’ wrong…

  495. #499 Dr Benway
    July 14, 2008

    @484:

    Yes I know these are death threats and you know these are death threats, but they are not legally threats because they do not have the form: “I am going to…”

    IANAL also. But as I understand, the “reasonable person” standard applies – i.e., would any reasonable person hearing or reading the words feel worried and intimidated?

    If I know and you know the words are a threat, we prove the “reasonable person” standard.

  496. #500 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    Respect that. I’m sure he appreciates the support and good intentions, but it’s all best handled professionally which it seems some of you are not doing.

    Ok, I’m sorry, but all of this is starting to smell a bit funny. I think I understand the general concern, but…

    If it was all so clear as to how PZ wanted to respond to these emails, why do you think he chose to post them without comment?

    again, it’s like asking people not to respond to trolls, without even asking them not to until a bunch have already responded.

    Frankly, as much as I can understand wanting to let PZ “handle it”, I also wouldn’t want to tell others how to handle it themselves.

    It really is beyond a matter of personal grievance, after all.

  497. #501 W. H. Heydt
    July 14, 2008

    What leaps out at me from the first e-mail is that the sender sent it from his *work* account (note both the sender ID and the business-style confidentiality statement at the end).

    I wonder what his bosses think about him sending hate mail from their PCs through their servers…. (Most companies have pretty strict policies about use of corporate systems.)

  498. #502 progressive homeschooler
    July 14, 2008

    PZ, you have a job at a collage? I’d like to know how you got that job too. Sounds like easy work, if you can get it.

  499. #503 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    Im all for going after lunatics making threats,

    once positively identified, yes.

    but its for PZ,not you or anyone else here.

    nope.

    it’s a crime, and anyone who feels the need to try an curtail this type of crime might feel obligated to involve themselves.

    If PZ wanted it to remain a private issue, you obviously know how he could have gone about it.

  500. #504 Neural T
    July 14, 2008

    Capital Dan,

    And again, nobody is harassing them. Several people just informed the company that owns the email address, and I sent an email directly to that person informing them. There’s nothing harassing in the email.

    Let’s remember that they chose this mess when they sent an email threatening violence. I have no sympathy for them. If somebody used Ms. Kroll’s email address, then I’m sorry she got mixed up in all this, but that again isn’t our fault. It’s the fault of the asshole who used her account.

  501. #505 Neural T
    July 14, 2008

    And there’s nothing “out of line” about informing somebody about what MAY be a crime, and what certainly IS an abuse of company resources. It’s not just about a personal grievance between the two parties.

  502. #506 raven
    July 14, 2008

    Agilent is represented by Paul Hastings in a multi-million dollar civil lawsuit that challenges the company’s wild assertion that is an ISP entitled to federal immunity in criminal matters.

    For one year, Agilent allowed Dr. Cameron Alden Moore, the notorious Crack Smoking Jesus to use the company’s intranet to terrorize and e-mail death threats from Agilent in Colorado to families in California.

    The FBI investigated and on 14 February 2003, Moore was arrested and charged with a felony. A few months later Agilent fired its in-house terrorist. Moore pled guilty and was convicted in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California.

    The families filed a complaint against Agilent and Moore in the California Superior Court, Santa Clara County seeking damages for pain and suffering. Moore lost at trial and on 18 April 2005, two of his victims were awarded $1,100,103.94 for intentional infliction of severe emotional distress.

    You betcha death threats are illegal, a criminal felony. Google and read, people get sent to jail all the time for these. Cameron Moore was convicted and jailed.

    He also owes his victims 1.1 million bucks after a civil suit which he lost. Agilent, his employer, and from where the emails were sent is also being sued.

    For any morons who can’t read and you know who you are,
    1. Death threats are felonies. People go to jail.

    2. The perps can also be sued in civil court. They can be ordered to pay millions of dollars in damages.

    3. If they are sending them from work, the employer may also be liable. You can bet 1800flowers knows this or will after they talk to their lawyers. You can also bet they are going to turn mkroll and her computer upside down and figure out where the email came from and from whom.

    It is cheaper than sending Myers a million bucks.

  503. #507 Capital Dan
    July 14, 2008

    What leaps out at me from the first e-mail is that the sender sent it from his *work* account (note both the sender ID and the business-style confidentiality statement at the end).

    I wonder what his bosses think about him sending hate mail from their PCs through their servers…. (Most companies have pretty strict policies about use of corporate systems.)

    Posted by: W. H. Heydt

    *facepalm*

  504. #508 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    Neural T,

    lets say you get a call from the your employer tomorrow telling you youre fired,alleging you sent a death threat to someone,you are told they have your IP address and followed it back to your workstation,its all watertight,you also receive mails to your email account accusing you of the same,and you notice your name and personal details have been posted on a public blog……but you know of course you did none of these things? How would you feel?

    All Im saying is,this is not how anyone should want to see justice done in here.None of you guys is in a position to prove that those names link to those IP addresses,so the right thing to do is to leave it to PZ or the authorities to make those connections.

  505. #509 Capital Dan
    July 14, 2008

    #501

    What leaps out at me from the first e-mail is that the sender sent it from his *work* account (note both the sender ID and the business-style confidentiality statement at the end).

    I wonder what his bosses think about him sending hate mail from their PCs through their servers…. (Most companies have pretty strict policies about use of corporate systems.)

    Posted by: W. H. Heydt | July 14, 2008 1:09 AM

    Sorry for the quasi-double post here, but in order to truly understand why this is facepalm-worthy, the comment number and timestamp are important.

    That said:

    *facepalm*

  506. #510 Neural T
    July 14, 2008

    clinteas,

    In this situation, the mkroll account sent an auto-response claiming that Melanie Kroll is on vacation from July 4 to July 14. If she’s been gone for the last week — with pictures of her sunbathing in Florida, perhaps — I’d say she has a pretty water tight case.

    None of you guys is in a position to prove that those names link to those IP addresses,so the right thing to do is to leave it to PZ or the authorities to make those connections.

    That’s what we did. The IT department and management can sort it out.

  507. #511 Dr Benway
    July 14, 2008

    I don’t know why PZ posted the emails here.

    Sometimes people react to threats with denial and minimization. Sometimes our instinct not to show fear kicks in. Fear can escalate conflicts.

    The people who sent these emails likely won’t follow through. Why travel hundreds of miles to kill a stranger?

    Still, these emails are evidence of a crime. The senders may be causing problems elsewhere, or may do something to someone else in the future. Best to pass the evidence along to the police.

  508. #512 Richard Wolford
    July 14, 2008

    From a brief scanning of the email header of the first one, it was sent from a domain of 1800flowers.int; this is a tale-tell sign of a Windows Active Directory (improperly named I might add), and the fact it was sent through an Exchange server is a dead giveaway. This isn’t spoofed, it’s legit IMO. Sorry if somebody else already saw this, I didn’t want to read all of the comments in yet another thread, I’m still laughing my ass of from the other ones :)

  509. #513 Lomoa
    July 14, 2008

    I called the 1.5162376000 number listed on post 131. Considering its 119 AM,I didnt think that anyone would pick up, but some dude did the whole 1-800-flowers greeting. And I was like hey PZ Meyers got an email from Mkroll and the guy was confused and was like did “you get an email from her?” I was like no and said thanks and good bye! 1.5162376000 sounds like 1-800-flowers techsupport though I may be mistaken. So Mkroll is probably a female.

  510. #514 Capital Dan
    July 14, 2008

    Still, these emails are evidence of a crime. The senders may be causing problems elsewhere, or may do something to someone else in the future. Best to pass the evidence along to the police.

    Posted by: Dr Benway

    Exactly. And, I’m sure PZ has already taken the appropriate steps. Why people here would feel they need to get involved is somewhat puzzling. Plus, getting involved will only clutter up things for those investigating these emails.

  511. #515 raven
    July 14, 2008

    I don’t know why PZ posted the emails here.

    I do. My theories:

    1. Myers has been getting these daily for days now. I suspect it is somewhere between 10 and 30 a day.

    After the first 50 or so, he is getting tired of it. He thinks that if he posts them maybe people will think a little more before committing felonies. It says in a box at the top of the blog that he will post death threats with full IDs. Fair warning to the morons.

    In case no one has noticed, the number of death threats has dropped to zero as even morons can understand that 5 years in prison for sending a crazed email is dumb.

  512. #516 Dr Benway
    July 14, 2008

    The IT department and management can sort it out.

    Or they can destroy evidence before the police obtain a warrant.

  513. #517 Neural T
    July 14, 2008

    Dr Benway,

    I’ve talked to members of law enforcement. They have fairly sophisticated computer forensics technology. They can sometimes even get data that has been “scrubbed” 25 times like some of those programs claim. Plus, by doing that, they would commit a crime too. Why would they jeopardize themselves to cover for some asshole coworker?

  514. #518 scooter
    July 14, 2008

    #416

    It’s another to spoof all the routing information. It would take someone with an advanced understanding of internet mail handling AND specific knowledge of the 1-800-FLOWERS mail system.

    You’re right.

    It’s very hard to spoof routing info. You can run programs that will look for open ports, then bounce off that server, if done right it will spoof the origin, but that’s fairly difficult, not an amateur hack.

    Anonymizing services do not spoof routing either. They show up in the trace and those services will roll over on anyone using them for death threats.
    ——–
    You tube Eucharist Challenge starring Wild Bill “Don” O’Heuwwe

  515. #519 Pimbok
    July 14, 2008

    Capital Dan wrote: And it’s your responsibility, because….?

    It’s not my responsibility, but it’s my right and I’m choosing to bring it to their attention for a few reasons:

    1) I use 1-800 Flowers’ Business Gift services heavily. That said, I’d prefer if my rather substantial monthly account balance did not subsidize the dispersal of hate-mail and death threats.

    2) As a business owner, I understand that a rogue employee can cause enormous damage to a brand if the situation is not handled quickly and correctly. But that said, rogue employees can go undetected for long periods of time if everybody works on the “somebody else must have told them” principle. As such, I’m acting in the same manner that I hope my clients would act in this situation.

    All that said, why should I be forced to explain myself to you anyway? Whether or not I recommend that 1-800 Flowers investigate an unfortunate incident makes no difference to you at all. Whether or not I provide contact information to others who wish to share their personal concerns also makes no difference to you.

    As such, please take your own advice, and be quiet about things that don’t pertain to you. Or if you must nose about, at least refrain from turning us all into hysterical caricatures.

  516. #520 scooter
    July 14, 2008

    #416

    It’s another to spoof all the routing information. It would take someone with an advanced understanding of internet mail handling AND specific knowledge of the 1-800-FLOWERS mail system.

    You’re right.

    It’s very hard to spoof routing info. You can run programs that will look for open ports, then bounce off that server, if done right it will spoof the origin, but that’s fairly difficult, not an amateur hack.

    Anonymizing services do not spoof routing either. They show up in the trace and those services will roll over on anyone using them for death threats.
    ——–
    You tube Eucharist Challenge starring Wild Bill “Don” O’Heuwwe

  517. #521 Neural T
    July 14, 2008

    Exactly, Pimbok.

  518. #522 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    Pimbok wrote:

    //As such, please take your own advice, and be quiet about things that don’t pertain to you//

    I wish you would be able to do just that !

  519. #523 JD
    July 14, 2008

    And finally, PZ, like I said, it’s your call, but I do feel that the authorities should be notified and given copies of all the threats you’ve received.

    PZ’s call? Sure, to a point, but I hope you’re not suggesting that the reporting of something as serious and as felonious as a death threat should be left only to the discretion of the victim. Such a position would be indefensible.

    It’s the responsibility of citizens to report serious crimes whether they are the victims or not.

  520. #524 Neural T
    July 14, 2008

    There are some crimes that are only crimes if the victim says they are — like taking a piece of property. It depends on their intentions.

    But a crime of this nature is a crime no matter what, and even as third parties, private citizens, we are perfectly within our rights to report it.

    I recently saw a show about a guy who got upset over the prostitution “epidemic” in his home town. So he grabbed a camera and roamed the streets to catch people in the act of solicitation. Then he sent it to the police and the local news.

    I suppose I *could* do that, but I’m not inclined to spend that kind of of time. PZ posted this information publicly, and when I came here it basically landed in my lap. So I chose to do something about it. That’s my right. It is potentially a crime, and that has nothing to do with whether PZ decides to act on it.

  521. #525 raven
    July 14, 2008

    Anonymizing services do not spoof routing either. They show up in the trace and those services will roll over on anyone using them for death threats.

    Yep. Proxies won’t protect against criminal activities. They even say so when you sign on.

    There is a reason for that. Homeland security and terrorism.

    They will protect people with legimate privacy concerns. They won’t go to Guantanomo and get tortured for some slimey crooks.

  522. #526 Dr Benway
    July 14, 2008

    I’ve talked to members of law enforcement. They have fairly sophisticated computer forensics technology. They can sometimes even get data that has been “scrubbed” 25 times like some of those programs claim. Plus, by doing that, they would commit a crime too. Why would they jeopardize themselves to cover for some asshole coworker?

    Evidence decays rapidly with time. The more people aware that something might be “evidence” before the police investigate, the faster the rate of decay.

    Hard drives can be replaced.

    I don’t know who might be friend or foe among employees at some flower company. I don’t know who might be sleeping with whom. I don’t know if some IT guy might play a prank.

    Best to assume as little as possible. And best not to tip your hand to the bad guys until you know what you want to do with ‘em.

  523. #527 Dlux
    July 14, 2008

    It’s been almost a half hour… time for someone new to decode the headers and announce that they’ve sent ‘Mr. Kroll’ a nastygram and a pantload of spam.

  524. #528 Dr Benway
    July 14, 2008

    Meh. Screwed up the blockquote thingy. Must be bedtime.

  525. #529 pimbok
    July 14, 2008

    clinteas: we already understand how you feel. You made that abundantly clear with you cartoonishly silly post in which you assume that 1-800 Flowers management will be so incompetant as to refrain from doing any research, and will simply fire ‘mkroll’ based on a few e-mails from third parties.

    In reality, I don’t even know that a firing is guaranteed even if proved guilty. Certainly there would be consequences including some form of reprimand, but the idea that we have the ability to fire somebody by mob is absurd.

    Anyway, thank you for repeatedly sharing your desire for everyone to do nothing. You’ve expressed your opinion quite neatly. Now go fuck yourself.

  526. #530 Dave W.
    July 14, 2008

    Capital Dan, you’re going to look like a prize fighter after 15 rounds if you keep facepalming every time someone doesn’t read the comments before taking action. The evidence is in the dozen or more “collage” jokes already in the thread that are nearly identical. Makes one wonder how many people found PZ’s comments to ward off harrassing the email senders before they simply went and harrassed the email senders, patted themselves on the back, and toddled off to some other blog.

    Like Breaking Spells, for example, where Melanie Kroll’s email address is prominently displayed without any “please don’t harrass this person” instructions or disclaimers.

    Jim Lippard had a little more sense on his blog.

  527. #531 Liberal Atheist
    July 14, 2008

    The bad grammar and spelling suggests that you are receiving plenty of email from people with English as a second or third language.

  528. #532 Dr Benway
    July 14, 2008

    Often things are as they seem. But often enough, they aren’t.

  529. #533 foxfire
    July 14, 2008

    @Goldfishflakes # 378

    Reading your position with respect to moderates: I can only surmise you never had to deal with implementation in the world of business. I agree that one needs to “take a strong stand when it comes to serious matters” and I question that the Cracker Crime represents a situation where one must abandon moderation for an extreme (Cracker denigration).

    In other words, if I were to pick a pony around which we could rally, the issue wouldn’t be about the relative worth of a saltine. It would be about individual rights (think gay marriage – so what’s the big deal?) or birth control (yeah, let’s go with abstinence to check all those teenage hormones) or abortion (a woman’s right to choose vs her body being a piece of property).

    Just because I think it wise not to attack every single issue with full force doesn’t mean I’m “crouching” behind my desk at home. What message would you want Hermant to get out? Go raid churches to violate some religious icon for the sole purpose of pissing off the pious?

    As far as religion goes – I really don’t care what people believe as long as they don’t try to shove it down my throat. Billy the blowhard tried to shove his religion down my throat by initiating a campaign to oust PZ from his position at UM.

    Ergo, I sent a letter to Bruininks supporting PZ. Have you written yet?

  530. #534 JD
    July 14, 2008

    #516,

    The IT department and management can sort it out.
    Or they can destroy evidence before the police obtain a warrant.

    If the company’s large enough to have an IT department the liklihood of your scenario is very small. Compounding a felony with a couple of others (wilful destruction of evidence and obstruction of justice) to protect a rogue employee is just not something I would worry about in this instance (whether hypothethical or otherwise).

    #526,

    The more people aware that something might be “evidence” before the police investigate, the faster the rate of decay.

    I don’t know who might be friend or foe among employees at some flower company. I don’t know who might be sleeping with whom. I don’t know if some IT guy might play a prank.
    Best to assume as little as possible.

    That’s a lot of assumptions for someone who wishes not to assume much.

  531. #535 Startup Fiance
    July 14, 2008

    I wonder how they even managed to get to this site, considering the title of the blog and its academic nature; quite baffling.

  532. #536 pimbok
    July 14, 2008

    raven wrote: Yep. Proxies won’t protect against criminal activities. They even say so when you sign on.

    This isn’t always true. My company inadvertently ran an open proxy for a few days last week (a situation that was identified when an admin noticed that we were sustaining 200mb of data through a line that usually peaks at 20-30mb.)

    Said proxy is generally used for a task where logging is not required, and as such logging was not enabled.

    As such, we couldn’t help LE even if we wanted to do so. The only possible penalty we’ll get no matter what we do is the $10,000 burst charge we’ll be paying the ISP for our network admin’s firewalling error.

  533. #537 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    Why travel hundreds of miles to kill a stranger?

    …when you could simply call 1-800-kill-guy and have us do it for you?

  534. #538 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    Dave @ 531 wrote :

    //Makes one wonder how many people found PZ’s comments to ward off harrassing the email senders before they simply went and harrassed the email senders//

    Too many,and if someone dares to point the potential pitfalls and dangers of it out to them,the reaction is :

    //Anyway, thank you for repeatedly sharing your desire for everyone to do nothing. You’ve expressed your opinion quite neatly. Now go fuck yourself.//

    Speaks for itself I guess.

  535. #539 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    The bad grammar and spelling suggests that you are receiving plenty of email from people with English as a second or third language.

    IOW, an American?

  536. #540 Neural T
    July 14, 2008

    Dave W,

    I posted a comment on Breaking Spells to try to mitigate the matter.

  537. #541 Wowbagger
    July 14, 2008

    Actually, some of the most eloquent posters on this blog are native speakers of a language other than English.

    Not me – unless you count Australian…

  538. #542 Jody
    July 14, 2008

    “IOW, an American?”

    Come now, how many Americans actually speak more than one language?

  539. #543 Liberal Atheist
    July 14, 2008

    #539
    If they are Americans, perhaps they have difficulties with reading and writing, which makes me feel bad for pointing out the poor grammar. Also, I’m not one to speak too loudly about this, considering how much I’m slaughtering the English language right now. (No, it’s not my first language.)

  540. #544 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    Come now, how many Americans actually speak more than one language?

    ah, but it just SEEMS that english is their third language, see?

  541. #545 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    If they are Americans, perhaps they have difficulties with reading and writing, which makes me feel bad for pointing out the poor grammar.

    yes.

    and

    it’s just a joke. Really, don’t feel bad.

    *ahem*

  542. #546 Wowbagger
    July 14, 2008

    Besides, don’t US Christians believe that Jesus spoke English?

    Liberal Atheist – you’re doing fine. A pedant might point out that one should write ‘poor grammar’ and not ‘bad grammar’, but we’re lucky there isn’t one of those around…

  543. #547 Neural T
    July 14, 2008

    The way I understand the law regarding threats like this is that they have to be specific in nature. If you say, “Fuck you asshole. I’m going to kill you,” that’s not specific enough for law enforcement to act on. But if you say “I’m going to be at your house tomorrow with a baseball bat,” that’s specific enough to act on.

    The email from mkroll straddles the line. It gives an ultimate and a rough timeline, and a specific method. It’s essentially saying, “Resign by the end of the month or I’ll beat your brains in.”

    That may be specific enough for law enforcement to act.

  544. #548 Wowbagger
    July 14, 2008

    Liberal Atheist – re: ‘Bad grammar’ – er, which you used in your first post, but not in your second. Silly me.

  545. #549 truth machine, OM
    July 14, 2008

    I don’t know. When the guy who actually is the victim of the crime that you guys are going so bat-shit crazy about tells me not to harass those responsible for these crimes, I’m thinking that most rational folks would respect that and step away and assume that he’s got things handled.

    You guys are acting just like the hordes of loons who came flying out of Donohue’s cave once the story of PZ’s criticism hit them. “Let’s write emails! Let’s get the person fired! Vengance vengance vengance!”

    It’s worth noting that, unlike Capital Dan, PZ was not a complete and utter pompous concern troll ass about it.

  546. #550 robertm
    July 14, 2008

    Thanks again for the info PZ. Every single bit you make public, I will be sure to make the absolute best of it.

    Do catholic’s like gay porn???

    I guess we will find out…

  547. #551 reuben
    July 14, 2008

    Posted by: robertm | July 14, 2008 2:54 AM

    Do catholic’s like gay porn??? I guess we will find out…

    I guess it only took another hour Dlux…

    Everyone, please try to read all the comments before posting. PZ doesn’t want you to harass these people. Signing them up for porn mailing lists doesn’t help anyone.

  548. #552 shonny
    July 14, 2008

    There are elements in here, also on the side of the ‘angels’, that remind me of Ross Thomas’s title The Fools in Town are on Our Side( http://www.amazon.com/Fools-Town-Are-Our-Side/dp/0312315821/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216018211&sr=1-2 )

    Don’t know for sure, but maybe taking PZ’s plea for us staying out of this should have been taken at face value?
    Rude, aggressive, and abusive e-mails are rather counter-productive. All they show is that the losers are evenly distributed on both sides.

  549. #553 Wowbagger
    July 14, 2008

    Signing them up for porn mailing lists doesn’t help anyone.

    Well, except the people who distribute porn.

  550. #554 reuben
    July 14, 2008

    Posted by: Wowbagger | July 14, 2008 3:09 AM

    Ha! Well, I guess you got me there.

  551. #555 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    You guys are acting just like the hordes of loons who came flying out of Donohue’s cave once the story of PZ’s criticism hit them.

    except for one, rather large, difference.

    Donowhore’s horde reacted to a threat to a cracker.

    not a crime.

    These are actual death threats against a human, which is a crime.

    not saying that all the kinds of responses people have noted here were completely rational or logical, but at least even the most irrational responder can point to something real, instead of something imaginary, like threatening a cracker.

  552. #556 scooter
    July 14, 2008

    Godless Atheists

    First you steal Christmas.

    Then you yank on our cracker.

    Now you are coming for our flowers.

    Cracker, SAVE US!!!

    ——————
    Wild Bill “Don” O’Heuwwe’s Tube Eucharist Challenge

  553. #557 Blind Squirrel FCD
    July 14, 2008

    Ichthyic @490 Yes, as I stated, I consider these as threats. You don’t get to paraphrase them in a court of law,however. The weaselly way they are worded might be sufficient to avoid a conviction. I am waiting for a real lawyer to comment. There must be one out there somewhere.

    Dr Benway@499 I don’t know for a fact that the reasonable person standard applies here. Still hoping for a lawyer. Hell, I will even refer to them as an attorney if that would help bring them out.

    Kristjan Wager@493 I am referring to the spoken or written word. No one has sent PZ a noose yet.

  554. #558 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    The weaselly way they are worded might be sufficient to avoid a conviction.

    but not an official investigation.

    whether the abuser is prosecuted or not, would depend on the opinion of the local DA (not even a lawyer would help you for sure in determining whether a case like this would end up in court).

    I think Raven, above, contributed relevant information as to whether these might be determined to be crimes or not, and it certainly seems to lean towards being worthy of criminal investigation.

    BTW, evidently PZ thought so too, which is why he posted them publicly, as dumps instead of C&Ps.

  555. #559 Jorg Willekens
    July 14, 2008

    What an atrocious spelling. Stuff like “college” versus “collage” are just inexcusable.

    Moreover, I did write a polite messages to 1800flowers.com indicating what their user did. I used the feedback form at:

    http://ww12.1800flowers.com/serviceform.do

  556. #560 blf
    July 14, 2008

    Years ago, for reasons I cannot remember, a (BBC?) TV reporter was doing person-on-street questions someplace in the States, and (as far as I can recall) asking a question something like “what language did jesus speak?”

    As you can imagine, there was a range of amusing answers, and some plausible ones, but the one that stuck in my mind–this is almost a verbatim quote–was “jesus speaks american just like it’s wrote in the bible.”

  557. #561 Bride of Shrek OM
    July 14, 2008

    Well, I’m a lawyer but I think you may need one thats a little more conversant in US Code BUT, for what its worth I checked this out:

    (From the US Code)

    PART I–CRIMES

    CHAPTER 41–EXTORTION AND THREATS

    Sec. 875. Interstate communications

    ….
    (c) Whoever transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any
    communication containing any threat to kidnap any person or any threat
    to injure the person of another, shall be fined under this title or
    imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

    Keep in mind that to define “threat” or any other wording for that matter is usually where you start delving into case law and, is ultimately a mater for a jury to decide based on the persuasiveness of either sides argument. Presumably you could also admit other extrinsic evidence to back your position up depending upon the evidentiary klaws of the jurisdiction.

    Apart from the Federal law you probably also have multiple offences that these people could be charged with ( and note I said charged- not necesarily convicted of) under the two State jurisdictions involved.

    For what its worth I could tell you I’d definately run with under the State laws in my country ( Australia) as, historically, the courts take a pretty dimm view of shit like this. What the penalty would be would be anyone’s guess- here imprisonment would be unlikely on a first offence but maybe things are a little harsher there.

  558. #562 Jennie
    July 14, 2008

    Don’t send flowers, SEND DEATH THREATS!! Try 1800Flowers today!

  559. #563 Luna
    July 14, 2008

    So, it looks like “Steve Montemurro” owned a website back in 2006 before he started his new career in mailing people and making death threats. It seems to be a placeholder now, but look what my friend archive.org dug up! :)

    http://web.archive.org/web/20060222021226/http://www.stevesteas.com/

  560. #564 Luna
    July 14, 2008

    Could this be the same Melanie Kroll? She’s done Biblical murals so it’s at least a remote possibility…

    http://www.findamuralist.com/Ohio/melanie-kroll-avon-lake.php

  561. #565 Quiet Desperation
    July 14, 2008

    “Fags”

    But why capitalize it?

    Damn it, I’m gonna lie awake all night wondering now. :-(

  562. #566 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #562:
    “Don’t send flowers, SEND DEATH THREATS!! Try 1800Flowers today!”

    Flawless victory!

  563. #567 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #565:

    I believe the person is trying to write a poem.

  564. #568 Raiko
    July 14, 2008

    How would you feel if nice folks starting ranting against
    Fags, and atheist like yourself.

    Would if?

    … I wish they were just ranting.

  565. #569 MH
    July 14, 2008

    JC #436 “Obviously, the person has some issues, but how is this any different than what Prof. Myers said to begin with? He threatened physical assault against both Jesus Christ and the Holy Father. ”

    Yes, PZ threatened to harm an immortal, omnipotent, supernatural being that doesn’t exist. Exactly the same (only not at all).

  566. #570 r?nato
    July 14, 2008

    what I would like to know is how did you even
    get a job at a collage.

    I too would like to know how to get one of those jobs. Sounds like a cushy gig, even more so than being a tenured professor at a college.

  567. #571 r?nato
    July 14, 2008

    well sir, you don’t get to blaspheme and walk away from this

    Blasphemy is a victimless crime.

  568. #572 Raiko
    July 14, 2008

    No! Don’t respond by spamming them back! These could very well be fake or phished email addresses (I think you can count on it for the first one).

    I am almost willing to suggest they’re not smart enough to phish or fake an email address.

  569. #573 KKing
    July 14, 2008

    “That sounds like America as it exists today; indeed it sounds like the anti-gay hate group that is the Roman Catholic Church and Pope Nazinger.”

    Jeff, if anyone does not embrace the homosexual lifestyle then they must be guilty of a hate crime right? They must also be homophobic, stupid, and they deserve to die.

    Blah…. Blah… Blah… Yeah, nobody has ever heard that ignorance before. I thought that we would have evolved after millions of years and be smarter. I guess we need another few millions of years. LOL right, we won’t make it another 100 years, let alone a few millions of years.

  570. #574 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008


    Jeff, if anyone does not embrace the homosexual lifestyle then they must be guilty of a hate crime right? They must also be homophobic, stupid, and they deserve to die.

    you should be charged with a crime for the way you slaughtered that strawman.

  571. #575 Pimbok
    July 14, 2008

    clinteas wrote: Speaks for itself I guess.

    Sorry clinteas, I forgot. Only you’re allowed to tell other people what to do. My bad.

    Hey everybody, do whatever clinteas tells you to do. He’s your boss, doncha know! he’s smarter than you, better than you, and you should really obey him in all matters.

    If you don’t, he’ll get insolent about your refusal to obey, and then act like it’s undeserved when you tell him to fuck off.

  572. #576 KKing
    July 14, 2008

    I think Myers will die of a heart attack before he will die because someone threatened him.

    However, there would be parties all around the world. Ding dong the witch is dead. You remember the scene at the end of Return of the Jedi. LOL, well there you go!

  573. #577 grinch
    July 14, 2008

    A service like spamcop.net can take all the hard work from grokking those headers.

  574. #578 KKing
    July 14, 2008

    “you should be charged with a crime for the way you slaughtered that strawman”

    First you have to prove it is a strawman. I am just giving some common knowledge.

  575. #579 Richard
    July 14, 2008

    I find it interesting that people would provoke a particular religious group, like, say, Catholicism which is about 1 billion strong, and then engage in pontification about what hypocrites they are when you have a few dingbats come out of the woodwork and break out in hysterics when you have insulted what is most sacred to them.

    Cook used force to take the Eucharist and then kept it behind locked doors for a week. He then sent it back to the church with a letter saying he did so because the letter of some showed that reason worked better than force. Should not have reason been enough, then, for him to convince the Catholic students to take the host and hold it in his possession for a week?

    Then Myers here reacts to the anger of the Catholics by saying he would pull out all the stops to desecrate a host. Keep in mind that Catholics believe that a host is the body. blood, soul, and divinity of the same Jesus Christ who bid them to deny their very lives for him above all else – and who gave up his own life for them. When Catholics react in anger then, to these actions, it shouldn’t be a surprise. There is no excuse for threatening one the way Myers has been threatened. The guy who did so has what’s coming to him at 1-800-FLOWERS. Myers’ words are aimed, among other things, at further stoking the anger already provoked within Catholics. It shouldn’t come as a surprise that some jerk(s) have responded like this.

    The intellectual exhibit here is to point out the irony of the of the hypocrisy due to the intolerance latent in Catholics who profess a religion of love and peace. Isn’t it rather intolerant, however, to the religion of Catholics to propose desecrating what they hold most dear? Isn’t it rather hypocritical to point out others’ intolerance toward you when you are intolerant toward them? And, no, the shoe doesn’t only fit with Catholics because they’re the ones purporting to profess love and peace and so forth whereas someone like Myer’s is not. Jesus didn’t tolerate sin; he loved the sinner, hated the sin. (“Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more.” John 8:11) To be intolerant of other’s intolerance is justified. The crux is how one acts on this intolerance. Myers and the 1-800-FLOWERS guy are equally culpable of irresponsibly acting from intolerance.

  576. #580 r?nato
    July 14, 2008

    I am a Pastafarian and a believer in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I am enraged by the hate crimes and blasphemy committed daily by un-believers who blithely consume the body of Our Savior in the form of spaghetti, fettuccine and even ramen noodles, without proper reverence for its holiness.

    Does anybody know to whom I should make the appropriate death threats and demands to have such blasphemers fired from their jobs? I suppose I could start with Bill Donoghue.

  577. #581 Richard
    July 14, 2008

    I find it interesting that people would provoke a particular religious group, like, say, Catholicism which is about 1 billion strong, and then engage in pontification about what hypocrites they are when you have a few dingbats come out of the woodwork and break out in hysterics when you have insulted what is most sacred to them.

    Cook used force to take the Eucharist and then kept it behind locked doors for a week. He then sent it back to the church with a letter saying he did so because the letter of some showed that reason worked better than force. Should not have reason been enough, then, for him to convince the Catholic students to take the host and hold it in his possession for a week?

    Then Myers here reacts to the anger of the Catholics by saying he would pull out all the stops to desecrate a host. Keep in mind that Catholics believe that a host is the body. blood, soul, and divinity of the same Jesus Christ who bid them to deny their very lives for him above all else – and who gave up his own life for them. When Catholics react in anger then, to these actions, it shouldn’t be a surprise. There is no excuse for threatening one the way Myers has been threatened. The guy who did so has what’s coming to him at 1-800-FLOWERS. Myers’ words are aimed, among other things, at further stoking the anger already provoked within Catholics. It shouldn’t come as a surprise that some jerk(s) have responded like this.

    The intellectual exhibit here is to point out the irony of the of the hypocrisy due to the intolerance latent in Catholics who profess a religion of love and peace. Isn’t it rather intolerant, however, to the religion of Catholics to propose desecrating what they hold most dear? Isn’t it rather hypocritical to point out others’ intolerance toward you when you are intolerant toward them? And, no, the shoe doesn’t only fit with Catholics because they’re the ones purporting to profess love and peace and so forth whereas someone like Myer’s is not. Jesus didn’t tolerate sin; he loved the sinner, hated the sin. (“Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more.” John 8:11) To be intolerant of other’s intolerance is justified. The crux is how one acts on this intolerance. Myers and the 1-800-FLOWERS guy are equally culpable of irresponsibly acting from intolerance.

  578. #582 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    @ 575 :

    LOL
    pimbok,I pray for you.

  579. #583 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #578: Easy.

    “Jeff, if anyone does not embrace the homosexual lifestyle then they must be guilty of a hate crime right?”

    That’s a straw-man. I don’t embrace the homosexual lifestyle. I support their rights, but I don’t embrace their lifestyle. Am I guilty of a hate crime?

  580. #584 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    http://www.spamcop.net/

    that IS useful.

    thanks for the tip, grinch.

    Cook used force to take the Eucharist

    good thing he didn’t file an assault claim against the woman at the church who forcibly tried to take it from HIM then.

    oh wait, he did.

    nice try at reversal, there, Richard, but the only force used was against Cook himself, not the other way round.

    I know, you can’t believe it.

    *yawn*

  581. #585 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    Richard,No 579 confabulated:

    //Cook used force to take the Eucharist and then kept it behind locked doors for a week//

    He carried it outside in his mouth to show it to a friend,was manhandled in the process,then kept it in a ziplock bag for a week.

    Is that an attempt at stating the most possible lies in one post?

  582. #586 KKing
    July 14, 2008

    “Yes, PZ threatened to harm an immortal, omnipotent, supernatural being that doesn’t exist. Exactly the same (only not at all).”

    Oh, he exists alright. When Myers dies it will be already too late. He needs to wake up before he dies. He just outright rejects and dismisses God, but that will not go unpunished.

    You know when the police say that ignorance of the law is no excuse and they go ahead and punish you anyway. Well just think about that for a minute with God. Now think that because you rejected him and tried to ignore God and pretend that he does not exist. Well ignorance of God is no excuse and you will burn in Hell. Hell is not for human kind really. It is for Satan and his demons and that is where you are going to end up for rejecting God.

    When you reject God and try to come up with some excuse why you think he doesn’t exist, God doesn’t play around when you reject him.

  583. #587 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    That’s a straw-man. I don’t embrace the homosexual lifestyle.

    actually, TrollKing’s poot was a strawman because it wasn’t Jeff’s argument at all. He was attacking an imaginary argument that nobody had ever made on the thread, in fact.

    …not to say that your reasoning as to why it simply was a BAD argument aren’t on the mark as well.

  584. #588 MH
    July 14, 2008

    Richard (#581), IT’S JUST A CRACKER!

    You know, there was a time when even Christians thought that it was just a cracker; that it only represented Christ metaphorically. What happened to change that?

  585. #589 KKing
    July 14, 2008

    “That’s a straw-man. I don’t embrace the homosexual lifestyle. I support their rights, but I don’t embrace their lifestyle. Am I guilty of a hate crime?”

    Not really. Embracing their lifestyle is what I ment by supporting their rights. That is the same thing. You don’t have to be a homosexual to embrace their lifestyle.

  586. #590 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    When Myers dies it will be already too late

    well, one thing is for sure.

    It’s obviously already too late for you, who apparently lost your sanity long ago.

    pity.

  587. #591 KKing
    July 14, 2008

    “Ahhh – the warm glow of Christian love.”

    Yeah, because atheists do not burn churches down or anything. Thanks for proving how mentally challenged you are.

  588. #592 MH
    July 14, 2008

    KKing #586, which god are you talking about?

    Agdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Amaterasu, An, Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder, Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brigit, Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun, Cheng-huang, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina, Davlin, Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Epona, Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia, Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Hades, Hanuman, Helios, Heng-o, Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, Hestia, Huitzilopochtli, Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki, Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jupiter, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya, Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kukulcan, Lakshmi, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Magna Mater, Marduk, Mars, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot, Mummu, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna, Nanse, Nemesis, Nephthys, Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nut, Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama, Re, Rhea, Sabazius, Sarasvati, Shiva, Seshat, Seti, Shamash, Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Surya, Susanoh, Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Tiamat, Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Venus, Vesta, Vishnu, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi Wang-mu, Xochipilli, Xochiquetzal, Yahweh, Yam, Yarikh, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil, or Zeus?

  589. #593 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #587:

    I was trolled. How embarassing.

  590. #594 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    He carried it outside in his mouth to show it to a friend,was manhandled in the process,then kept it in a ziplock bag for a week.

    minor corrections, based on what I read:

    -He dropped it into his hand after it was given to him by the priest.
    -The priest made him put it in his mouth.
    -He walked back to his pew with it in his mouth, then dropped it back in his hand to show his friend.
    -He was assaulted by a female “church leader” who saw it in his hand and tried to force him to give it back (note: NOT to put it back in his mouth).
    -After repeatedly asking that the woman stop assaulting him, he decided to leave the church entirely.
    -He put the cracker in a baggie.
    -He, and the UCF PUBLICLY funded Catholic Church, filed counter claims with various official agencies.
    -He received death threats and threats of expulsion, as well as “explanations” as to why some Catholics obsess about crackers.
    -He decided to return the cracker.

    am I missing anything?

  591. #595 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    btw, I suspect KKing is yet another alias for:

    Naz, k8, promo, baker, PZ is a fool, Burns, rumrunner, Dobbs, NYTs, KKKAthiest, Andy, CDV, BradJ, Brett, b7, PCD, NVFU, Your daddy, facebock, baker and several other loud-mouthed asses who have been braying here

  592. #596 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #589:
    “Not really. Embracing their lifestyle is what I [meant] by supporting their rights.”

    That may be what you meant, but that was not how it translated in my mind (or apparently Ichthyic’s).

  593. #597 Siddharth
    July 14, 2008

    Not really. Embracing their lifestyle is what I ment by supporting their rights. That is the same thing. You don’t have to be a homosexual to embrace their lifestyle.

    I’ll sketch the strawman for you. We did not call you a bigot just because you disagree with what homosexual people do with their personal lives.

    We call you a bigot because you actively try to *impose* your belief system on other people as law and are not tolerant of their views. Clear?

  594. #598 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008


    Yeah, because atheists do not burn churches down or anything

    we burn churches now?

    damn, another memo missed.

  595. #599 Lago
    July 14, 2008

    “Agdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Amaterasu, An, Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder, Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brigit, Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun, Cheng-huang, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina, Davlin, Demeter, …”

    I wonder if Tom Lehrer ever made a song about that?

  596. #600 KKing
    July 14, 2008

    “It’s obviously already too late for you, who apparently lost your sanity long ago.”

    Well, maybe you think so. However, God is real and you too will find out some day. It’s not really a threat it is a promise. Every knee shall bow and every tounge will confess that Jesus Christ is God.

    It is what it is. God gives you free will and you may use that to do what you will, but you will be judged at the end of your life on what you have done good and done bad.

    You may think it is a fairy tale, but that is just your way with dealing with things you don’t want to be true.

    I wish I could do that too. I wasn’t really robbed, or raped that was just a fairy tale.

  597. #601 truth machine, OM
    July 14, 2008

    Thanks for proving how mentally challenged you are.

    Oh, the irony. KKing has a pretty good shot at being rated the stupidest Godbot who has posted here in the last few days, and that is mighty damn stupid.

  598. #602 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #600:
    “You may think it is a fairy tale, but that is just your way with dealing with things you don’t want to be true.”

    As opposed to what? Wanting it to be true doesn’t make it true.

  599. #603 Kel
    July 14, 2008

    @KKing

    Oh, he exists alright.

    Do you happen to have any empirical evidence to support that assertion?

  600. #604 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    Well, maybe you think so.

    maybe? I don’t recall qualifying my opinion.

    done thumping your tub there, rev?

    good, good. Now run along and take your meds.

  601. #605 KKing
    July 14, 2008

    “we burn churches now?”

    You are on this forum too much and have not paid attention to the news. Yes it is 100 percent true. There have been kids who are Atheists that decided they would burn down churches.

    Then again when you promote an atheist world view you are also promoting a lack of tolerance and corupted morals. See Myers own posting a few months back when an atheist couple had sex in a church where there is no respect or tolerance for anyone.

  602. #606 Dianne
    July 14, 2008

    However, God is real and you too will find out some day.

    What makes you so sure? And which God are we talking about? Personally, I hope that the afterlife is really like a story I half remember* about some North American Indian tribe whose tale was that after death an owl would examine your wrist. If you had the proper tattoo, you got into the good afterlife. Otherwise you got tossed into a pit. I’ve always thought that it would be cool if the unspecified tattoo was “666″.

    *And therefore have probably screwed up in some way.

  603. #607 Kel
    July 14, 2008

    @KKing

    God is real

    Again with the assertion. I can’t wait to see what evidence you have to support such an improbable entity.

  604. #608 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    “Then again when you promote an atheist world view you are also promoting a lack of tolerance and corupted morals.”

    http://www.kobrascorner.com/philo/not-antichrist-but-anti-christ.php

    Wrong again.

  605. #609 primordial
    July 14, 2008

    I’m glad you manage to keep a smile on your face inspite of these emails.

    Have a good day, I look forward to more amusing messages.

  606. #610 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    I wish I could do that too. I wasn’t really robbed, or raped that was just a fairy tale.

    oh, I get it, you just are in the wrong forum.

    My apologies, this is the second time I’ve mistaken a troll for a survivor in denial. You’d think I’d be getting better at it by now, but I have to claim no formal training.

    you want to go here, and get some help:

    http://www.aftersilence.org/

    good luck.

  607. #611 truth machine, OM
    July 14, 2008

    They must also be homophobic, stupid, and they deserve to die.

    In your case, one and two, certainly. But don’t you think you deserve eternal life in the company of your loving creator, KKing? Or are you just another cowardly hypocritical Christian shit who spews all that life everlasting garbage but knows deep down that it’s all bullshit?

  608. #612 KKing
    July 14, 2008

    “What makes you so sure? And which God are we talking about?”

    By all means, go ahead and meet him. Go find out for yourself. He is real and he is light.

    There is no proof that I can provide you to show what I know is real. Not that there isn’t any proof, but you won’t believe anything anyone else says or shows you until you see for yourself. So by all means go for it.

    You won’t like what you see.

    You won’t be able to handle the truth.

  609. #613 386sx
    July 14, 2008

    And, no, the shoe doesn’t only fit with Catholics because they’re the ones purporting to profess love and peace and so forth whereas someone like Myer’s is not. Jesus didn’t tolerate sin; he loved the sinner, hated the sin. (“Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more.” John 8:11) To be intolerant of other’s intolerance is justified.

    So then it’s justified to be intolerant of Jesus’s intolerance of sin.

    The crux is how one acts on this intolerance. Myers and the 1-800-FLOWERS guy are equally culpable of irresponsibly acting from intolerance.

    Let’s see, how does Jesus act on his intolerance of sin? The way the flowers guy and Myers acted are a drop in the bucket compared to the way Jesus acts from intolerance.

  610. #614 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    “There is no proof that I can provide you to show what I know is real. Not that there isn’t any proof, but you won’t believe anything anyone else says or shows you until you see for yourself. So by all means go for it.”

    Actually, there is proof that we would believe: Scientific evidence.

    None of this: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

  611. #615 Noam Zur
    July 14, 2008

    PZ, Paul, Professor, and all the other names you get called in your emails – I think I speak for many of us devoted blog-readers of yours when I say – we support you and especially this publication policy!
    Thanks for making me (us) think about many different and varied things every day we log on to this wonderful site. Just because I felt that a nice note of support once in a while in between the hate mails could be nice for your general mood :)

  612. #616 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    Dianne,

    he is talking about the north american god,you know the dude with long hair and a texan accent that walked out of mesopotamia 5000 years ago and founded the american state of Israel,whose descendants then immigrated to the US from the UK and finally conquered their one country under god.

    Gee,have we ever attracted a bunch of thick people in the last few days,its truly amazing.

  613. #617 truth machine, OM
    July 14, 2008

    There have been kids who are Atheists that decided they would burn down churches.

    Not that it matters, since “they” aren’t “we” regardless of what they believe, but they were Jewish, not atheists.

  614. #618 Kel
    July 14, 2008

    @KKing

    There is no proof that I can provide you to show what I know is real.

    And you still want us to take you seriously?

    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” – Philip K. Dick

  615. #619 AgnosticTheocrat
    July 14, 2008

    “There is no proof that I can provide you to show what I know is real. Not that there isn’t any proof, but you won’t believe anything anyone else says or shows you until you see for yourself. So by all means go for it.”

    I’d like to see what you have as proof, let me make the determination whether it’s valid for myself. Don’t just say I won’t accept it before you let me evaluate it, otherwise I’m forced to assume you don’t have any proof and are simply posturing.

    So what is your proof?

  616. #620 truth machine, OM
    July 14, 2008

    And you still want us to take you seriously?

    I think that’s too complex a concept for KKing to formulate.

  617. #621 truth machine, OM
    July 14, 2008

    I’m forced to assume you don’t have any proof and are simply posturing.

    We already know that, since he thinks he doesn’t deserve to die.

  618. #622 Kel
    July 14, 2008

    The sad thing about KKing is that by not trying to justify his beliefs. For as it says in the bible:
    1 Peter 3:15 be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you

    Come on KKing, follow the bible. Give a justification for your beliefs.

  619. #623 GunOfSod
    July 14, 2008

    #311 “Letters like this always make me wonder why so many people who generally identify as democrats are against concealed carry or firearms in general. While I think its just random puffery nuttiness…I’d still be packing were I PZ.”

    Think…. Try harder….Nearlyyyyyy…. Thats it you got it!!! Should read.

    “Letters like this always make me wonder why so many people who generally identify as REPUBLICANS are FOR concealed
    firearms”.

    That wasn’t so hard now was it.

  620. #624 KKing
    July 14, 2008

    “In your case, one and two, certainly. But don’t you think you deserve eternal life in the company of your loving creator, KKing? Or are you just another cowardly hypocritical Christian shit who spews all that life everlasting garbage but knows deep down that it’s all bullshit?”

    Thanks for insulting me, but it really doesn’t anything to prove you know anything. It just makes you look ignorant.

    Nobody deserves Eternal life by default.

    1) “The wages of Sin is death” – (Romans 6:23)

    This means spiritual death not dying physically. This means Hell.

    2) “Christ died for our Sins” – (1st Corinthians 15:3)

    Jesus Christ died for our sins and took all of our sins using a sacrifice on him.

    3) “The Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” – (Romans 6:23)

    4) “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” – (Romans 10:13)

    This means faithfully and truthfully calling upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

    All of this is 100 percent real and I would stake my life on it.

  621. #625 John Phillips, FCD
    July 14, 2008

    You know, I keep pinching myself and yep, I am definitely awake. Pity, at first I thought I was having a strange nightmare with the odd bit of comedy thrown in to stop me waking up screaming. If it wasn’t for the fact that I am surrounded by and using modern technology I would suspect that I had slipped through a time portal back to the days of the inquisition. This still is the 21st Century. Isn’t it?

  622. #626 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #623: An armed society is a polite society.

  623. #627 Jennie
    July 14, 2008

    If the Christian faith is so against homosexuality and anal sex, than what are all you guys doing with a stick up your ass?!

    I pray you all find a way to safely remove these sticks.

  624. #628 r?nato
    July 14, 2008

    regarding the godlessgeeks.com link above, sounds like KKing is making the Argument From Intelligence:


    (1) Look, there’s really no point in me trying to explain the whole thing to you stupid Atheists — it’s too complicated for you to understand. God exists whether you like it or not.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  625. #629 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #624: Then why don’t you?

    Next time there’s a bank robbery, run in there and stand with your arms wide open and proclaim, “You cannot kill me! Leave those hostages, cretin!”

    Then you’ll die, go to heaven, and the world will be without one more person with a dangerously inept mind.

  626. #630 r?nato
    July 14, 2008

    …and also #32:

    ARGUMENT FROM SMUGNESS
    (1) God exists.
    (2) I don’t give a crap whether you believe it or not; I have better things to do than to try to convince you morons.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  627. #631 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    KKing,

    //Nobody deserves Eternal life by default. //

    how many altar boys would one have to impale,or witches to burn,or jews who desecrate the host to burn at the stake,to earn eternal life,exactly? Could you give me some ballpark figure here?
    Is that something like the medical curriculum,got to have done 20 colonoscopies or something?
    Inquiring minds want to know !

  628. #632 Kel
    July 14, 2008

    All of this is 100 percent real and I would stake my life on it.

    I’m calling Poe on this guy. How many people would rationally say their beliefs are 100% real and offer no evidence?

  629. #633 truth machine, OM
    July 14, 2008

    Thanks for insulting me, but it really doesn’t anything to prove you know anything. It just makes you look ignorant.

    Strawman, and no, sorry, it doesn’t.

    Nobody deserves Eternal life by default.

    No sequitur. Here’s the question again, dumbfuck: “But don’t you think you deserve eternal life in the company of your loving creator, KKing?”

  630. #634 MissPrism
    July 14, 2008

    Lao, #599 – He certainly should have done, so I wrote it for him. Here’s the first verse.

    I don’t believe in Jahweh, Buddha, Ganesh, Zeus or Allah
    And I don’t believe in Limbo, Hades, Heaven or Valhalla
    I don’t believe in Brahma, Karma, Aphrodite or Jupiter
    I’ve read both of the Testaments but can’t say which is stupiter
    I’ve got no time for Odin, Ceres, Poseidon or Kingu
    They’re as fictional as Sherlock Homes or Arthur Dent or Pingu
    When I hear a psalm or mantra then I can’t suppress my laughter
    ‘Cos the one thing gods are good for is to name the plates after
    I think that Christianity, Islam and Scientology
    Are all a scam that preys upon a quirk of our psycholgy
    I care not if you curse me by the names of Baal or Shiva,
    For I am the very model of an Fervent Unbeliever.

  631. #635 truth machine, OM
    July 14, 2008

    All of this is 100 percent real and I would stake my life on it.

    How would you go about doing that? Just saying it, but not doing it, makes you look like a liar and a coward.

  632. #636 r?nato
    July 14, 2008

    …aaaaand, #81:

    ARGUMENT FROM INEVITABILITY
    (1) I have proof that God exists.
    (2) I won’t bother to tell you what it is because, being Atheists, you would be hostile to the conclusion anyway.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

    thanks for the link Kobra

  633. #637 MissPrism
    July 14, 2008

    Gah. “Plates” should be “planets”, of course. Bother my inept tying fingers.

  634. #638 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #634:
    “I don’t believe in Jahweh, Buddha, Ganesh, Zeus or Allah
    And I don’t believe in Limbo, Hades, Heaven or Valhalla
    I don’t believe in Brahma, Karma, Aphrodite or Jupiter
    I’ve read both of the Testaments but can’t say which is stupider
    I’ve got no time for Odin, Ceres, Poseidon or Kingu
    They’re as fictional as Sherlock Homes or Arthur Dent or Pingu
    When I hear a psalm or mantra then I can’t suppress my laughter
    ‘Cos the one thing gods are good for is to name the plates after
    I think that Christianity, Islam and Scientology
    Are all a scam that preys upon a quirk of our psychology
    I care not if you curse me by the names of Baal or Shiva,
    For I am the very model of an Fervent Unbeliever.”

    I am in awe. Seriously. That was awesome.

  635. #639 truth machine, OM
    July 14, 2008

    I’m calling Poe on this guy. How many people would rationally say their beliefs are 100% real and offer no evidence?

    Did I miss some reason to suspect KKing of being rational?

  636. #640 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    not bad for a first crack at it, MissPrism.

    I’d say that’s a keeper.

    have you considered doing a vid of you singing it and put it up on youtube?

  637. #641 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #639: I know, right?

  638. #642 Jennie
    July 14, 2008

    RE: KKing Post #624

    “All of this is 100 percent real and I would stake my life on it.”

    Here is a fun way to prove your faith!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yD_Igdn9BQ

    Let us know how that works out for you!

  639. #643 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    MissPrism,

    well done !
    Lets have PZ and Dawkins rap to that on Youtube !!

  640. #644 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #640: I second that motion. Email me kobrasrealm@gmail.com if you want me to edit the audio tracks (my brother is a rap artist; I know how to use Adobe Audition).

  641. #645 GunOfSod
    July 14, 2008

    #623: “An armed society is a polite society.”

    Think…. Try Harder…. Nearly.

    These death threats all originated from YOUR polite society!

    Perhaps you’d care to look at the statistices for gun related crime in the US as opposed to some of the more “Impolite” societys on the planet.

    Not really working out very well is it?

  642. #647 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #645: I’m speaking in general, of course.

    How many school shootings would happen if all the teachers had guns? Not many.

  643. #648 Kel
    July 14, 2008

    Did I miss some reason to suspect KKing of being rational?

    No, but I’m sure he thinks he is.

  644. #649 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #646: I’d like to recommend another option:

    Who cares about “spreading atheism?” If someone’s smart enough, they’ll come to the logical conclusion on their own behest.

  645. #650 KKing
    July 14, 2008

    “Come on KKing, follow the bible. Give a justification for your beliefs.”

    I can give them the reasons why but they won’t believe them and they will bash whatever reasons I give.

    For example I could say that Early Christians were not just killed for believing what the did they were torchured for something they felt strongly about. So many of them were torchured. Now it seems illogical that they would not just be killed (which is the easy way out) but they were torchured.

    Paul who was called Saul used to kill and torchure Christians himself but he was turned and did a 180 and became one of the most known Christians in history. How could that happen like that if it was not real?

    There are people that have died and seen God and saw that there is an afterlife. Some of them used to be Atheists.

    There was a stone tablet that just came out in the news a week ago and it was from the Jews and they have said it was about a messiah who would die and rise up again after 3 days.

    There are lots of reasons why I believe. I could keep going but nobody here is going to believe anything that has not been scientifically tested with science. It’s like a blind person who has been blind from birth and a person who can see trying to describe what the color red is. He isn’t going to get it and neither are these blind people on here.

  646. #651 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    Kobra,

    how many school shootings would happen if none of the schoolkids had guns?

    Not many.
    Like,in the rest of the civilized world.

  647. #652 truth machine, OM
    July 14, 2008

    No, but I’m sure he thinks he is.

    Missing the point. Go back and read what I was responding to.

  648. #653 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #651: We could argue this for a while, but it will get us nowhere.

  649. #654 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    “There are lots of reasons why I believe.”

    Belief is not truth.

  650. #655 truth machine, OM
    July 14, 2008

    Previously I wrote that KKing has a pretty good shot at being rated the stupidest Godbot who has posted here in the last few days. #650 firmly sews it up.

  651. #656 Jennie
    July 14, 2008

    RE: KKing post #650

    “There was a stone tablet that just came out in the news a week ago and it was from the Jews and they have said it was about a messiah who would die and rise up again after 3 days.”

    How about a differnt view of that tablet hmm?

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4295804.ece

  652. #657 Feynmaniac
    July 14, 2008

    btw, I suspect KKing is yet another alias for:

    Naz, k8, promo, baker, PZ is a fool, Burns, rumrunner, Dobbs, NYTs, KKKAthiest, Andy, CDV, BradJ, Brett, b7, PCD, NVFU, Your daddy, facebock, baker and several other loud-mouthed asses who have been braying here

    Possible. Or it could be Keith. Compare #576
    “I think Myers will die of a heart attack before he will die because someone threatened him.

    However, there would be parties all around the world.”

    With,
    “I remain disappointed that PZ’s liver, pancreas, lungs, and brain haven’t exploded with virulent forms of cancer yet but perhaps before long. I’m keeping an extra hundred dollar bill handy to buy a few rounds of beers in a local pub in great celebration.”

    I would change my name too if I made a prediction that Expelled was going to change biology, make billions and end up with Myers fired.

    If there are not the same guy, it just goes to show how “Christian love” doesn’t stop these guys from wishing people dead.

  653. #658 Kel
    July 14, 2008

    There are lots of reasons why I believe.

    Lots of people in lots of religions have martyred themselves for their beliefs. that doesn’t show your one to be true.

    People change their beliefs, and the conversion of Saul still isn’t evidence.

    Near Death Experiences show whatever the beliefs of the society are. You don’t see Hindu’s seeing a Christian God.

    That tablet pre-dated Jesus by about 70 years. The story of sacrifice and resurrection was common around that time.

    If that’s the best you can do, those are some pretty weak reasons.

  654. #659 Siddharth
    July 14, 2008

    Please let’s not have a gun control debate? Pretty please? It ends up going nowhere, and people who aren’t citizens of the US aren’t really bothered.

  655. #660 truth machine, OM
    July 14, 2008

    How about a differnt view of that tablet hmm?

    Most likely that same view got twisted in KKing’s tiny little brain to invert its significance.

  656. #661 MissPrism
    July 14, 2008

    I forgot this:

    I thoroughly despise the likes of Donohue and Bakker
    And posit that the Eucharist is just a frackin’ cracker.

  657. #662 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #658:
    107. ARGUMENT FROM MARTYRDOM
    (1) The apostles would not have died for something they knew wasn’t true.
    (2) Atheist gives examples of martyrs outside Christendom.
    (3) Obviously those examples were fooled by Satan.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  658. #663 KKing
    July 14, 2008

    “Here is a fun way to prove your faith!!”

    That is not how God works. You have to be willing to submit to his will. He will not submit to yours.

  659. #664 GunOfSod
    July 14, 2008

    #651 “I’m speaking in general, of course.

    How many school shootings would happen if all the teachers had guns? Not many.”

    You must stop it. Please look at school shooting statistics between countries with strong gun control laws and the USA.

    Figure it out already.

  660. #665 r?nato
    July 14, 2008

    am I commenter #666???

  661. #666 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    666 GET!

                         
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                                    
                             
                    
                    
                    
                    
                    
  662. #667 Kel
    July 14, 2008

    107. ARGUMENT FROM MARTYRDOM
    (1) The apostles would not have died for something they knew wasn’t true.
    (2) Atheist gives examples of martyrs outside Christendom.
    (3) Obviously those examples were fooled by Satan.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

    I’m in stiches here. That’s hilarious!

  663. #668 r?nato
    July 14, 2008

    damn you Kobra!!!

  664. #669 Jennie
    July 14, 2008

    RE: KKing post #663

    Well you sure aren’t one to prove your faith then! I thought you were certain that “All of this is 100 percent real and I would stake my life on it.”

    Geez, I’m not sure what you mean by saying that you are willing to stake your life on it when you are obviously NOT willing to stake your life on it…..

    Actions speak louder than words.

  665. #670 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #664: Will do. Now let’s get back to the matter at hand, shall we?

  666. #671 MH
    July 14, 2008

    KKing #663 “That is not how God works. You have to be willing to submit to his will. He will not submit to yours.”

    Classic case of right wing authoritarianism.

  667. #672 r?nato
    July 14, 2008

    does God heal amputees?

  668. #673 truth machine, OM
    July 14, 2008

    That is not how God works. You have to be willing to submit to his will. He will not submit to yours.

    But apparently he’s subject to your claims about how he works.

    Sigh. These threads are ultimately depressing, revealing the poverty of thought and the bad faith of such a large fraction of humanity. G’night, folks.

  669. #674 Jennie
    July 14, 2008

    RE Kobra post #666

    ahahahah oh my! ahahaha that’s wonderful! PERFECT!

  670. #675 Siddharth
    July 14, 2008

    That is not how God works. You have to be willing to submit to his will. He will not submit to yours.

    What about the millions of people who believe in a different religion? For example, in India *millions* submit themselves to the will of the Hindu Gods. Why is their faith any less than yours? They are absolutely convinced that their gods are true, just like you are convinced that the bible is the word of god.

    The only reason you believe in Christianity is that you were born in a location where that religion was dominant. If you were born in India instead, you’d most probably be a Hindu.

    Perhaps if you take a class or borrow a book on comparative religion, it might broaden your perspective. Besides, since you are so sure of your religion, it’s not going to hurt.

  671. #676 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #668: Haha :P.

    I’m not sure that Myers is going to like that I worked around the lack of the use of the IMG tag to post an image. I hope he finds it funny, though. Image taken from a RichardDawkins.net forum discussion.

  672. #677 r?nato
    July 14, 2008

    “That is not how God works. You have to be willing to submit to his will. He will not submit to yours.”

    Yeah, well, I’m not really into the Dom/sub thing. Who knew God was so kinky?

  673. #678 Nick Gotts
    July 14, 2008

    Sorry, but Jesus Christ and the Holy Father are not recognized citizens of the US by our government. – Neural T.

    They’d better watch out then! Since they must evidently (being omniscient) be party to Osama bin Laden’s whereabouts and plans, they risk getting kidnapped, sent to Guantanamo or one of the secret “facilities”, and waterboarded. Come to think of it, I’d guess that makes it every patriotic American’s duty to get hold of consecrated wafers (since these are actually bits of these non-citizens) and turn them over to the federal authorities for torture enhanced interrogation.

  674. #679 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    #650 firmly sews it up.

    I think 650 actually caused me to lose a few brain cells.

    yikes.

    TrollKing should have put a warning at the top of that post:

    “DANGER! Reading the following may cause irreparable brain damage!”

    I’m suing for emotional and physical damages.

    it’s far, far beyond mere stupidity.
    Deranged comes to mind.

  675. #680 T_U_T
    July 14, 2008

    if you submit to the will of god, you will accept THIS text as a proof of her existence. therefore submitting yourself to god is all that is required to prove that she exists
    /reboot brain

  676. #681 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #677:
    What? You didn’t know that God was kinky? Why else would he spend so much time dictating our sex lives?

    Hmm… God with a strap-on…

  677. #682 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #679:

    Why bother suing? There isn’t enough therapy in the world.

  678. #683 r?nato
    July 14, 2008

    The only reason you believe in Christianity is that you were born in a location where that religion was dominant. If you were born in India instead, you’d most probably be a Hindu.

    Funny, I figured this out all on my own around, oh, 9 or 10 years old. Maybe 11. “If Christianity is the one true religion, why is it that about 2% of Chinese are Christians? Would a loving God hate the Chinese? Or is it that religion is ethnocentric?”

    yeah, I was a precocious one. Tested at 153 IQ, for whatever IQ scores are worth…

  679. #684 shonny
    July 14, 2008

    An armed society is a polite society.

    Posted by: Kobra | July 14, 2008 5:57 AM

    ‘Polite’ as in ‘shit scared’?

  680. #685 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    Kobra, I’m actually shocked.

    I think that might be the first time I’ve seen an image posted in a comment on a Pharyngula thread, over the last 3 years.

    Oh, I am so going to use that pre tag to insert images from now on.

    still, I can understand why images aren’t allowed.

    these threads get way too huge as it is.

  681. #686 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #684: That discussion is over for now.

  682. #687 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #685: It’s called goatse.

  683. #688 truth machine, OM
    July 14, 2008

    That trick’s too good not to try:

    
    
    
    
    
                    
  684. #689 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    Naz,kate,promo,andy,Dobbs,rumrunner,Burns and baker,
    posting under false pretense did not impress your maker !

    Hm,hey,its my third language ok !
    LOL

  685. #690 r?nato
    July 14, 2008

    What? You didn’t know that God was kinky? Why else would he spend so much time dictating our sex lives?

    He also approves of incest…

    I have to give God props for one thing though… he must like lesbianism because that was not condemned, only man-on-man sex…

  686. #691 negentropyeater
    July 14, 2008

    KKing,

    Then again when you promote an atheist world view you are also promoting a lack of tolerance and corupted morals. See Myers own posting a few months back when an atheist couple had sex in a church where there is no respect or tolerance for anyone.

    You see, already by implying that atheists have corrupted morals, you are the one who is promoting non respect and intolerance.

    Your comment is deeply offensive to us.
    Who do you think you are to give us lessons of morals ?

    Don’t you see that as long as the religious folks will maintain this notion that only them have the right to determine what is right or wrong, what is moral or not, we will have no choice than to react ?

    You do not leave us any choice ? Do you understand ?
    It is because of your intolerance, your fault of respect, your sense of moral superiority, your systematic attempt to intervene in order to change the laws of this country to suit your morals, and all of this based on ancient texts which were most evidently written by antique mesopotamian goatherders that WE DO NOT VALUE, that now more and more non believers all over the USA are starting to react and to provoke you.

    BTW this is exactly what happened in the 60s and the 70s in many Western European countries, such as Scandinavia, Benelux, France, to a certain extent Great Britain, Germany but also Japan and the religious folks had to learn to deal with it. And they adapted, they became more tolerant, religious fundamentalism gradually faded away and nowadays non believers and religious folks can coexist in a society which is more tolerant of each others beliefs or non belief. So is this what you call an “atheist worldview”, as you can see, it makes no sense.

    Nothing will stop you from believing in God and enjoying your faith and its most sacred rituals, as many can still do it in those nations of Western Europe. But from now on, you will have to start by showing us a little more respect, which you have never ever done, if you want us to do the same. And you will have to accept, once and for all, that if laws and morals, are to be shared and accepted by ALL men, they have to be determined by men based on reason, and not by God, nor based on some antique texts written more than 2000 years ago.

  687. #693 r?nato
    July 14, 2008

    #685: there is nothing magical about the

     tag (other than it is a permitted tag here), what made it work is the inline style which Kobra applied to the tag.
    
    It should work with any HTML tag which is allowed in the comments; that is, style="background:#(hex color here) url(your url here)"
    
    Incidentally I am pretty sure that quotes are not required inside the parentheses for the URL, but that doesn't seem to have prevented the image from appearing.
  688. #694 r?nato
    July 14, 2008

    …oops, apologies for breaking my comment by not using HTML entities for < and >

  689. #695 MH
    July 14, 2008

    Regarding the background image trick, Kobra, you’re one smart cookie!

  690. #696 JeffreyD
    July 14, 2008

    Hmmm, KKing claims that atheist kids are burning churches, now mention of NDEs, though that word not used.

    Hmmm, I smell a Kenny.

    Pax Nabisco

  691. #697 SEF
    July 14, 2008

    @ deang #400

    It is so strange that they do that. It’s like they don’t have a logical bone in their body. Reminds me of Americans who respond to criticisms of the US by demanding that the critic stop scrutinizing the US and start criticizing whatever country is the enemy du jour.

    They’re not merely lacking the requisite critical thinking abilities to recognise and avoid indulging in such hypocrisy; they’re also lacking the relevant religious education, viz Matthew 7:v3-5.

  692. #698 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #693: Actually, there are a few tags it doesn’t work for. <b> is one of them. It works for <p>, though.

  693. #699 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    there is nothing magical about the

    it’s not that it’s magical, i just never considered using in-line style to insert background images before.

    one gets used to using standard image tags, which are allowed at many forums.

    case in point, like I said, I’m a regular here and I don’t recall ever seeing someone place an image in a comment using that technique before, and I KNOW that there are quite a few people around here who work with html on a regular basis (myself included).

    that said, I really would recommend not abusing it, or most likely sciblogs will figure out a way to curtail it entirely.

  694. #700 r?nato
    July 14, 2008
    Jesus Dieted For Our Sins!
  695. #701 T_U_T
    July 14, 2008

    thiz iz a tezt

  696. #702 r?nato
    July 14, 2008

    and I fucked up the tag. *sigh*

  697. #703 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    In the immortal words of Einstein, “Creativity is more important than knowledge.” :D

  698. #704 Mike O'Risal
    July 14, 2008

    In the meanwhile, Webster Cook — the student who “stole” the magic cracker — has filed an anti-hazing charge against Campus Catholic Ministries. The university’s rules prohibit any campus organization from forcing students to consume any food against their wills as part of their anti-hazing prohibitions. It brings up some interesting questions.

    The application of the phrase “magic cracker” to something in Florida has special connotations in itself that ought to make those who know the significance of the term “cracker” in that state giggle just a bit.

  699. #705 echidna
    July 14, 2008

    #624:

    Bible quotes are not effective arguments here. Would you be convinced of something by quotes from the Koran, or from the Bhagavad Gita? Do you really think that the people here are ignorant of the bible?

    Your knowledge of the bible is relatively weak, going by the quotes you give. You speak as if you have been indoctrinated by bible studies that single out a verse or two, followed by discussion about the meaning of these verses in relative isolation.

    Assuming, for your sake, that the NT is an accurate reflection of real people of two thousand years ago, and is applicable today, lets look at that quote from Romans 6:23 “The wages of Sin is death”. Read all of Romans, not just the one line. You will see that Paul is trying to convince his readers that the Law is not only not needed any more, but is almost evil, since it is impossible to lead a sinless life, and therefore by attempting to follow the law, the righteous (meaning those trying to do the right thing) get an automatic fail. The wages of sin is death means that trying to follow the Law leads to death. Don’t fall into the trap of reading the word “righteous” to mean “arrogant and hypocritical”, which is how Paul would have you read it. It means, as Jesus means it, to please God by your actions in accordance with His Law.

    Paul clearly had no intention of following Jesus, for whom not one jot or iota of the law would pass away. His notion of Jesus has nothing to do with a real historical Jewish leader.

    I challenge you to read the bible cover to cover. Try to read the deuterocanonical books as well – you will see in Wisdom that thinking and learning is a good thing (Paul tries to make out that people shouldn’t think about their faith), and in Maccabees that the idea of a spiritual heaven is necessary when invading forces wipe out entire families in such a way that earthly rewards for good behaviour (even if left to succeeding generations) are no longer possible.

    Good luck with your spiritual and intellectual journey. You may realise that the god of the NT is the product of smoke and mirrors and the natural desire to believe just as the people around you do.

  700. #706 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    JeffreyD,

    I agree,it all smells like Kenny.Then again,”Kenny” at the same time is probably a meme for the state of mind of large parts of the catholic folks,so maybe htey are different people after all LOL

    Good to see da boyz play with their new toys btw hehehe

  701. #707 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #704: I know, I live in Florida. My mom didn’t realize what I meant when I said, “Holy shit! Stupidest thing ever… or rather, stupidest thing yet: Some guy is receiving death threats for INSULTING A CRACKER!”

    Yes, I do talk like that with my parents. Thanks for asking.

  702. #708 David Marjanovi?, OM
    July 14, 2008

    Wow. An estimated 700 comments in, like, 15 hours. Please, PZ, post on some arcane detail of a science topic so I can return to my habit of reading entire threads!

    How many school shootings would happen if all the teachers had guns? Not many.

    The teachers would just be shot first.

    You are asking a completely wrong question. What you should be asking is why almost all school massacres so far have happened in the US of A.

    You are new here. You might want to read the zillion gun control threads we’ve had so far. :-)

    I can give them the reasons why but they won’t believe them and they will bash whatever reasons I give.

    How do you know?

    For example I could say that Early Christians were not just killed for believing what the did they were torchured for something they felt strongly about. So many of them were torchured. Now it seems illogical that they would not just be killed (which is the easy way out) but they were torchured.

    What utter nonsense. They were tortured to make them betray all their friends. The idea was to take the whole organization out at once.

    Paul who was called Saul used to kill and torchure Christians himself but he was turned and did a 180 and became one of the most known Christians in history. How could that happen like that if it was not real?

    You aren’t really saying that it’s impossible to become deeply convinced of something that is not true, are you?

    There are people that have died and seen God and saw that there is an afterlife. Some of them used to be Atheists.

    Near-death experiences can be induced even under conditions that are nowhere near life-threatening. Most importantly, the bright light is inevitable from the way vertebrate eyes work.

    There was a stone tablet that just came out in the news a week ago and it was from the Jews and they have said it was about a messiah who would die and rise up again after 3 days.

    And? Since there’s such a prophecy in the Bible, we already know the idea is older.

    Besides, “after 3 days” or “on the 3rd day”?

    There are lots of reasons why I believe. I could keep going but nobody here is going to believe anything that has not been scientifically tested with science. It’s like a blind person who has been blind from birth and a person who can see trying to describe what the color red is. He isn’t going to get it and neither are these blind people on here.

    If we are incapable of believing, why do you waste your time telling us we should believe?

    Lots of people in lots of religions have martyred themselves for their beliefs.

    Not only in religions!!! Political ideologies suffice entirely. Communism abounds in martyrs. The Stalinist PKK even had suicide bombers — let me repeat it: these were people who were convinced that death was The End™, that there was no afterlife whatsoever, so, in their opinion, they made a greater sacrifice than any martyr of a religion. National Socialism, too, has a couple martyrs.

    Please let’s not have a gun control debate? Pretty please? It ends up going nowhere, and people who aren’t citizens of the US aren’t really bothered.

    1) This thread is already so long that we might as well add a gun control debate. 2) Kobra is actually intelligent to the point of being capable of appreciating evidence. 3) The rest of the world cares deeply about the proportion of dangerous madmen in the population of the most powerful country on Earth.

  703. #709 Nick Gotts
    July 14, 2008

    Hasn’t anyone yet worked out that “KKing” is our most feared and respected adversary, Kenny? “It is what it is”. NDEs… And just the unfathomable depth of stupidity, the gut-wrenching reek of stupid beyond stupid, emanating from every sentence.

  704. #710 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    Some of the participants in this thread makes me want to lobby Congress to take the warning labels off everything.

  705. #711 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    @704:

    nice followup.

    I also noticed an interesting link in the article:

    http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/14/stories/2008071450360100.htm

    HYDERABAD: Christians across the State strongly protested the publication of an objectionable picture of Jesus in a Telugu daily on Sunday.

    Publication of the picture triggered an attack on the office of Sakshi daily in Chirala town in Prakasam district and demonstrations in Nandyal, Guntakal, Anantapur, Guntur, Ongole and Bhimavaram. Copies of the daily were set ablaze in some places.

    uh huh.

    xianity: the peaceful religion.

    LOL

  706. #712 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #708: It will just get in the way of the current discussion.

    I’m not very well-read on the controversy surrounding gun control, so I can’t argue facts. The only thing I could bring to the discussion is biased logic. And I know this, and I plan on educating myself to change this. You are correct, though; the question should be why most happen in the USA.

  707. #713 John Phillips, FCD
    July 14, 2008

    Goldstein’s clone, yet ironically it is you damned xians that are the ones sending us death threats, not us atheists sending you death threats.

    Try again, your projection is showing.

  708. #714 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    echidna,

    very well done !

    One of my favourites about this blog is that there are people here that know so much more about the whole bible stuff than me and the christians whose holy book it is meant to be,like Etha Williams,David M or others,and it is with great pleasure that I see christians disemboweled about their lack of knowledge of their own holy book !!

  709. #715 Nick Gotts
    July 14, 2008

    JeffreyD@696 – I see you had worked it out! I didn’t scan the rest of the thread carefully enough.

  710. #716 MAJeff, OM
    July 14, 2008

    YAY! Kenny’s back with the NDEs! Let us all bask in the glow of his spectacular stupidity!

  711. #717 Sven DiMilo
    July 14, 2008

    Please, PZ, post on some arcane detail of a science topic

    I’ll second that one! Man, I remember when PZ could threaten to piss on a Bible and still only get about 50 comments total (this was back in the day when I used to walk to school in the snow uphill both ways). Now somebody sockpuppets and bam! it’s 1000 comments.

    And that’s Kenny all right.

  712. #718 David Marjanovi?, OM
    July 14, 2008

    Wow, I estimated the speed with which new comments are added almost correctly!

    That is not how God works. You have to be willing to submit to his will. He will not submit to yours.

    Except if you’re a priest and tell him to turn a bunch of wafers into himself. Then he obliges every single time.

    Also at marriages: divorce is forbidden because “what God has connected man shall not separate” — every single time a priest says “I declare you man and wife”, God obliges and makes them man and wife, unless of course the marriage is annulled afterwards.

    This is Catholic, and not only Catholic, dogma.

  713. #719 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    And are you saying that atheists don’t do that at Christian sites?

    now all you have to do is post the death threats, sent by email, to a xian by an atheist because the xian threatened to piss on a cracker.

    btw, aren’t you banned here (see entry re: Kansas Troll in the dungeon)?

  714. #720 GunOfSod
    July 14, 2008

    #708 “3) The rest of the world cares deeply about the proportion of dangerous madmen in the population of the most powerful country on Earth.”

    Case in point being that I don’t lve in the USA. But am particularly worried by the seemingly violent extremes of opinion that seem to occur in the USA (see this thread). Whether its emailed death threats or gun control laws, the whole world has to live with the fact that your American president, has his fundamentalist, gun toting finger on the most destructive arsenal ever seen, and we can all see exactly how much power your Congress has in trying to reign him in.

    Your ideas of enforcing politeness through implied threat may have their roots in your gun culture, but it’s not working for you nationally. I’d hate to see the logical consequences of a “School Shooting” played out on a Global scale.

  715. #721 John Phillips, FCD
    July 14, 2008

    Goldstein’s clone, look at the beginning of this thread and the other e-mail threads a few back on this same subject where PZ has posted some of the other e-mails he has received from xians.

    Now show us some death threats from atheist you claim to have, unless of course you are just another liar for cheeses and crackers.

  716. #722 David Marjanovi?, OM
    July 14, 2008

    And are you saying that atheists don’t do that at Christian sites?

    Show me examples.

    And don’t you agree that communism is basically just another religion? Keep in mind that, while most communists are atheists, most atheists are not communists. There are two or three communists (in some wide sense of the word at least) among the regular commenters here, but that’s it. I, for one, am not one.

  717. #723 JeffreyD
    July 14, 2008

    Re #716, Morning Nick Gotts, how be thou? Yeah, I had worked it out, but had an advantage. Not been sleeping well so I was reading from top to bottom since early morn.

    Pax Nabisco

  718. #724 David Marjanovi?, OM
    July 14, 2008

    Oops, should have closed the tag after the first “most”.

  719. #725 Irony
    July 14, 2008

    Listen you motherfuckers. Stop harping on [the religion of your choice]! [the religion of your choice] is all about peace and love you fucking atheist ass wipes! And I’ll kill anyone who says it isn’t!

  720. #726 Matt Penfold
    July 14, 2008

    David Marjanovi?,

    You could also have mentioned Liberation Theology which borrow quite a bit from communism and socialism.

  721. #727 krryth
    July 14, 2008

    Ah, feel the Christian love.
    ** Brought to you by the Ministry of Love **

  722. #728 ospalh
    July 14, 2008

    smonte19′s threat or curse

    may your insides rot, may your neck be snapped by an iron boot against a curb

    somehow reminds me of Blackadder:

    Dear Enemy: May the Lord hate you and all your kind, may you be turned orange in hue, and may your head fall off at an awkward moment.

  723. #729 negentropyeater
    July 14, 2008

    KKing is defintely the one and only Kenny.

    Same writing style

    Same format (note the double blank lines between paragraphs typical of the Kenny)

    And of course, NDEs, and the K in KKing

    Not difficult to spot a Kenny when we find one !

  724. #730 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #727:
    I call Poe’s Law!

  725. #731 Richard Fieldsend
    July 14, 2008

    I don’t know whether the florist email is faked (doesn’t look like it from the comments above)… but I decided that the best course of action was the contact the company (hey, they even have a handy ‘contact us’ page on their site) and ask them whether it was something that they approved of.

    If it isn’t a fake then I expect that MK Rolls will be in for a very difficult day today… :o)

  726. #732 Mike
    July 14, 2008

    for privacy’s sake let’s call him… Kenny K. No wait, that’s too obvious…uh, let’s say K.King.

  727. #733 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    you are just another liar for cheeses and crackers.

    oh that’s goldstein in a nutshell, alrighty.

    he’s an infamous xian troll, tossed out of almost every blog he visits his insanity upon.

    the “original” Larry Farfarman.

    Kenny ain’t got nothing on Goldstein.

    he’s always recognizable by that trademark:

    Who ya kiddin?

    ending to many of his posts, when he thinks he has some irrefutable point that really is nothing but projection.

  728. #734 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    Sven and David,

    I think Im going to have to sue PZ for all this,I havent had a social life for nearly a week and even spent half of my time at work going thru thousands of posts,to keep up lol…

    And there is of course the rest of the blogosphere to check on,that picked up on the issue…

    And then there is WYD here in Oz,and the Pope on national TV all the time.

    Its all too much !!!
    Over a cracker !!!

    BTW,
    I reckon Webster Cook is a cool guy,he had this planned to protest the donations of public money to this catholic group on his campus just as PZ planned his satire reply to it !
    Well done Mr Cook !

  729. #735 MAJeff, OM
    July 14, 2008

    for privacy’s sake let’s call him… Kenny K. No wait, that’s too obvious…uh, let’s say K.King.

    How’s about K-K-Kenny.

  730. #736 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    I can give them the reasons why but they won’t believe them and they will bash whatever reasons I give.

    For example I could say that Early Christians were not just killed for believing what the did they were torchured for something they felt strongly about. So many of them were torchured. Now it seems illogical that they would not just be killed (which is the easy way out) but they were torchured.

    Paul who was called Saul used to kill and torchure Christians himself but he was turned and did a 180 and became one of the most known Christians in history. How could that happen like that if it was not real?

    There are people that have died and seen God and saw that there is an afterlife. Some of them used to be Atheists.

    There was a stone tablet that just came out in the news a week ago and it was from the Jews and they have said it was about a messiah who would die and rise up again after 3 days.

    There are lots of reasons why I believe. I could keep going but nobody here is going to believe anything that has not been scientifically tested with science. It’s like a blind person who has been blind from birth and a person who can see trying to describe what the color red is. He isn’t going to get it and neither are these blind people on here.

    kking, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.

  731. #737 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    yes, kobra, you managed to insert images via background tags.

    we’ve already congratulated you.

    don’t overdo it, or none of us will ever get to do it.

    seriously.

  732. #738 Moses
    July 14, 2008

    The IT department and management can sort it out.
    Or they can destroy evidence before the police obtain a warrant.

    Posted by: Dr Benway | July 14, 2008 1:39 AM

    Which is a crime. And while you may not realize it, I suspect the IT guys do.

    Plus, the Company is big enough that there are laws governing the preservation of its e-mail. So, I doubt they’d scrub it. Especially when it’s likely been archived automatically.

  733. #739 Donovan
    July 14, 2008

    You have two choices my fucked up friend, first you can quit your job for the good of the
    children. Or you can get your brains beat in.

    …may your neck be snapped by an iron boot against a curb…

    What was that about only picking on Catholics because they’re peaceful? Although the second bugger seems more upset that PZ’s a liberal. I have wondered, since I didn’t notice if PZ has said anything… These e-mails are being sent through phone lines, making threats of violence a federal crime by FCC regulations. You know, a real hate crime against a real person, not a virtual hate crime against a cracker.

  734. #740 Siddharth
    July 14, 2008

    Also, I award you no points and may everyone not show mercy to your intelligence.

  735. #741 Moses
    July 14, 2008

    And it’s your responsibility, because….?

    Are you under the impression that PZ isn’t capable of handling this himself? After all, how does this, in any way, concern you?

    Posted by: Capital Dan | July 14, 2008 12:40 AM

    You just don’t get it, do you? First, why is it your business, by your logic, what other people do? Hmmmmm…?

    Second, it’s people like you, willing to do nothing, that preserve injustice and inequity in the world. In short, if the world can be made a better place, it sure as fuck won’t be you helping. Which sort of makes you pathetic.

  736. #742 Hessenroots
    July 14, 2008

    Sorry, but Jesus Christ and the Holy Father are not recognized citizens of the US by our government. – Neural T.

    Wellllllll, they’re getting close. Familiar with House Resolution 847?

    Glad to see our fine government hard at work…

  737. #743 negentropyeater
    July 14, 2008

    The valid question of course is Kenny-King of what ?

    He must be King of something, we must grant him that.

    King of the Kretins ? Is that ok Kenny ?

  738. #744 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    *Senses fresh breeze of rationality and reason*

    Thank dog,its the morning in the US,and the reasonable people are coming to reclaim the thread,man it was dark and gloomy in here for a while there LOL
    Hello MAJeff,Moses,RevBig,David M and others !

  739. #745 Nick Gotts
    July 14, 2008

    I think these posts give theists a good idea of what atheists would like to do to them if the atheists had political control. Goldstein’s Clone

    The very idea of “atheists” having political control is absurd: atheists are not an organised body, and their views range over the entire political spectrum. There might, of course, be particular political groups who are also atheists who would want to seize power and suppress both theists and other atheists, just as there are undoubtedly groups of theists who want to seize power and oppress both atheists, and other theists.

    Incidentally, internal evidence suggests that “Goldstein” in 1984 was simply an invention of the Inner Party; certainly Orwell leaves this option open. So anyone using the handle “Goldstein’s clone” is almost certainly either ignorant, or dishonest. (Or indeed both.)

  740. #746 Nick Gotts
    July 14, 2008

    JeffreyD,
    btw, very sorry to hear about your loss, which I only learned of yesterday.

  741. #747 Sean Wills
    July 14, 2008

    So, let me get this straight…these nutjobs think that death threats (extremely violent death threats) and foul language is an appropriate response to you threatening to profane a cracker?

    What the hell is this, the Middle Ages?

    It’s also hilarious that some of these people want you to insult a Muslim icon. Apparently they’re suffering under the delusion that we’re all pro-Islam, Catholic hating ‘liberals’ (whatever that means these days). I think someone needs a big dose of reality…

  742. #748 Rev. BigDUmbCHimp
    July 14, 2008

    It is a political philosphy which, as developed in the past century, is based on dialectical materialism.

    Look its Legion AKA The Kansas Troll.

    We’ve been through this legion. You don’t know what you are talking about. You need to bone up on dialectical materialism. It does not mean what you think it does.

    We’ve been through this many times.

  743. #749 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    I’m not trying to overdo it (nor do I care for congratulations). I’m trying to add a little bit of humor, that’s all.

  744. #750 MAJeff, OM
    July 14, 2008

    Hello MAJeff,Moses,RevBig,David M and others !

    Goede morgen!

    Can’t stick around long. Teaching statement and dissertation are calling.

    I was thinking yesterday, with all of the calls for desecration of muslim things, we should have spezio square off with a few of the radical catholics. that could be very entertaining, in a sort of “watch the illiterate who claim they are geniuses try to read Proust” kind of way.

  745. #751 negentropyeater
    July 14, 2008

    Thank dog,its the morning in the US,and the reasonable people are coming to reclaim the thread,man it was dark and gloomy in here for a while there LOL

    Yep, it was also dark and gloomy in the Bastille jail, and they also did reclaim it on this very day !

    Vive la prise de la bastille. Aux armes citoyens !

  746. #752 Mike O'Risal
    July 14, 2008

    It’s also hilarious that some of these people want you to insult a Muslim icon…

    The good news for them is that the wait is over. Christians are committing acts of violence over an image in a newspaper of Jesus with a beer mug.

    See? They are every bit as good at attacking the infidels as their competition. Grab your pitchfork and join up today!

  747. #753 Moses
    July 14, 2008

    Jeff, if anyone does not embrace the homosexual lifestyle then they must be guilty of a hate crime right? They must also be homophobic, stupid, and they deserve to die.

    Blah…. Blah… Blah… Yeah, nobody has ever heard that ignorance before. I thought that we would have evolved after millions of years and be smarter. I guess we need another few millions of years. LOL right, we won’t make it another 100 years, let alone a few millions of years.

    Posted by: KKing | July 14, 2008 4:32 AM

    Does your mind actually work this shabbily? Or is it that you’re just stuck in 3rd-grade logic as critical thinking and logic skills are not part of the American educational process?

    Seriously, is it (as it appears) cognitive, or are you just ignorant?

    Because you don’t have to “endorse the homosexual lifestyle” (which is anything but a singular lifestyle) to not be a fucking, gay-bashing asshole. Really. Try it some day. You’ll feel better when you put away the hate.

  748. #754 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    “Does your mind actually work this shabbily? Or is it that you’re just stuck in 3rd-grade logic as critical thinking and logic skills are not part of the American educational process?”

    Is that rhetorical questioning?

  749. #755 MAJeff, OM
    July 14, 2008

    they must be guilty of a hate crime right? They must also be homophobic, stupid, and they deserve to die.

    Goddamn you’re a fucking idiot. Where did I say deserve to die? Indeed, it seems to be you that are obsessed with condemning people to die. After all, your fairy tale buddy (YOU) would torture me for eternity because I’m gay.

    Yup, you’re a loving creature. Fuckwit.

    Now, if you don’t want to be called a stupid bigot, stop acting like one.

  750. #756 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    Judeo-Christian ideology, in a nutshell: Love thy neighbor, unless he’s black, Jewish, gay, liberal, from a different country, speaks a different language, dresses differently, has different tastes, listens to different music, expresses his opinions, or (God forbid) is a woman.

  751. #757 MAJeff, OM
    July 14, 2008

    Does your mind actually work this shabbily?

    C’mon Moses. You already know the answer to that.

  752. #758 Dody
    July 14, 2008

    I used to work at 1-800-Flowers and I am pretty surprised to say the least. In fact there were quite a few gay guys there. One was name Mike too. Well at least I thought he was gay, it’s not like I ever asked of course. He bleached his hair, wore earrings, was super nice. Anyway, from my experience as an ex-employee, this is the typical employee and it certainly doesn’t speak for the company. I do apologize. If you call Dave the owner, I’m sure Mike will lose his job as internet surfing on work hours is a no go and leaves one eligible for automatic separation.

  753. #759 Dody
    July 14, 2008

    *isn’t the typical employee …sorry

  754. #760 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    Now this is maybe the one thing in all of this that I really do not get,the call from all these cathofascists for PZ to desecrate something non-catholic,I dont get it,whats the point with that?

    Clearly the catholics have shown that they can be just as murderous as the muslims or any other bunch of cultists,and not only in the last few days,but throughout history.

  755. #761 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    . I’m trying to add a little bit of humor, that’s all.

    irrelevant. we’ve been using standard links to accomplish the same thing for years, and so were you up until very recently.

    I’m not saying it’s guaranteed, and I might just be overreacting, but I can see sciblogs getting concerned about bandwidth issues (espcially on THIS blog) if they start seeing a bunch of images in threads where there aren’t supposed to be any.

    If it comes though the pipes that utilizing in-line style tags to post images is okedokee, then fine and dandy. You will have started a revolution on this blog, singlehandedly!

    somehow, though, I rather think there must be a reason that Sciblogs disabled posting images in comments to begin with.

    All I’m saying, is that you might want to reserve that “feature” for something important.

  756. #762 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #765: Gotcha. Special occasions only. ;)

  757. #763 Arwen
    July 14, 2008

    That first threat was made from a work email account. I’d forward that to their administrator… see if they like their job threatened.

  758. #764 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #766:

    Just to follow-up: goatse.cx is probably the reason it was disabled.

  759. #765 Matt
    July 14, 2008

    As a Catholic, I’m ashamed that someone would think so little of my religion as to promote thoughtless violence in this way.

  760. #766 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    Matt: I notice you said, “As a Catholic, I’m ashamed that someone would think so little of my religion as to promote thoughtless violence in this way.”

    Have you ever said, “As a Democrat, I’m ashamed that someone would think so little of my politics as to promote thoughtless violence in this way,” by any chance? Why should religion be immune to criticism?

  761. #767 rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    One was name Mike too. Well at least I thought he was gay, it’s not like I ever asked of course. He bleached his hair, wore earrings, was super nice.

    Is that what homosexuals all look and act like? I’ll have to keep my eye out.

  762. #768 JeffreyD
    July 14, 2008

    Nick at #749, thank you. Mine is not a pleasant blog, but you are welcome to drop bye and say hello. (smile)

    Ciao

  763. #769 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    Matt,No 769 :

    One of our best here,JeffreyD,has written on this and other misconceptions here,its very much worth a read :

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/fyi.php#comment-980398

  764. #770 Moses
    July 14, 2008

    #591

    Yeah, because atheists do not burn churches down or anything. Thanks for proving how mentally challenged you are.

    Posted by: KKing | July 14, 2008 5:08 AM

    Put on proof.

  765. #771 scooter
    July 14, 2008

    #745

    Sorry, but Jesus Christ and the Holy Father are not recognized citizens of the US by our government. – Neural T.

    Wellllllll, they’re getting close. Familiar with House Resolution 847?

    I hope they do make Jesus a citizen, then we can round his ass up with the rest of them goddam trouble-makin’ anti-war liberal loud-mouthed jews, and ship ‘em all back to Africa with the Mexicans.

    God Bless America!!!

    You Tube EUCHARIST Challenge

  766. #772 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    Just to follow-up: goatse.cx is probably the reason it was disabled.

    could be, or more generally they don’t want to hassle with image rights issues.

    I’m actually trying to find out why standard image tags themselves were disabled in comments on all sciblogs right now.

    If it turns out it’s not really a bandwidth issue, I’d be curious to see if they actually would try to curtail all in-line style tags if people started posting image links via that technique.

    I certainly would love to be able to post some of the images I link to on an almost daily basis around here, and the threads would certainly become more, uh, colorful.

    I just have a suspicion that they won’t go for it.

    I hope I’m wrong.

  767. #773 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #776: I just sent the webmaster an email. I hope to hear back soon.

  768. #774 Wildy
    July 14, 2008

    So wait, if I sent an email that basically said (except more long winded) “Read my blog or die”, he would be able to post that based on the disclaimer?

  769. #775 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #778:

    You’d get a lot of negative press, if there is such a thing. :P

  770. #776 JeffreyD
    July 14, 2008

    clinteas at #773, you are far to kind to my stream of consciousness scriblings, but thank you for the compliment. (smile)

    Pax Nabisco

  771. #777 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    Clarissa: Atheism is not communism.

  772. #778 Libly
    July 14, 2008

    And the big macho albeit semi-literate sender of this email delivers flowers for a living?
    Hmmmm… methinks you should report it to 1800Flowers

  773. #779 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    Clarissa: We heard you the first time.

  774. #780 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    So wait, if I sent an email that basically said (except more long winded) “Read my blog or die”, he would be able to post that based on the disclaimer?

    I’m pretty sure that he could put any disclaimer he wants on the blog and post email addresses and IP addresss as he chooses. I don’t think there is any privacy. implied or not, when you post on someone’s blog. But I could be wrong, it happens a lot.

  775. #781 John Phillips, FCD
    July 14, 2008

    Goldstein, strange that all of them take him to task for his post with regard the cracker if they are not xian for nobody else would be interested. Additionally, if you read the ones in the other thread a few back you will see very obviously that they are xians. So try again.

    As to iggy and his threats, the closest I could come to a threat was “when I unleash the full wrath of the Trinity of Hannibal Lector, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and the Noodle Appendage” at the end of one of his posts. If that is a threat, it is strange one, though I can well imagine that the thought of our FSM descending on xians might well frighten them with thoughts of beer volcanoes, strippers and pasta. But interestingly, I noticed in other posts by apparent regulars that your presence and reason for being there was being questioned giving the impression as if you were messing around with various names. So who is the real problem here, as the posts that could be gleaned as from iggy (critical thinker, though he may have been using other names, I am not familiar enough with the regulars to glean it on a short visit) were mainly arguing about the stupidity of belief in god or gods and apart from that quote, if even that one, none could be seen as threatening. So more of your lying for cheeses and crackers.

  776. #782 JeffreyD
    July 14, 2008

    Re #781 and #784, we have Godwin’s Law for mention of Nazis, can we get one for the equation of atheist with Communist? A named law makes for a neat shorthand in writing.

    I think we need one for fatwa envy as well.

    Suggestions?

    Pax Nabisco

  777. #783 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    clarissa is part of legion.

  778. #784 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #788:
    Tixx’s Law?

  779. #785 speedwell
    July 14, 2008

    Mike O’Risal = mychorrizal. I’ll be damned. No, wait, I’m already damned. Oh, snap. :)

  780. #786 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #790: Nevermind, I thought there was a space. Damned blogspot!

  781. #787 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    But interestingly, I noticed in other posts by apparent regulars that your presence and reason for being there was being questioned giving the impression as if you were messing around with various names.

    The impression is true. That moniker is one of many legion uses.

  782. #788 Brian Coughlan
    July 14, 2008

    Clarissa: Atheism is not communism.

    More to the point communism wasn’t even communism.

    Never underestimate the capacity of one group of humans to dehumanise and massacre any other group of humans, for the most trivial and absurd of reasons.

    That this happens in both “atheist” societies and “religious” societies merely serves to underscore the point that neither group is perfect, plugged into divine wisdom or morally “complete” in any meaningful sense. However, the atheists aren’t the ones claiming that this can happen.

  783. #789 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    Ok,
    I name atheism=communism Anges law,after the girl Id really like to date……
    It goes like that:
    In any given internet blog,usenet or similar forum discussion,the longer the discussion goes,the probability for someone bringing up the atheism=communism argument approaches 1.

  784. #790 Who cares?
    July 14, 2008

    John, feel free to contact Iggy at http://www.kcfreethought.org

    He won’t deny it.

    Sure, he will say he is kidding, or its all a joke. But how are we to KNOW that?

    In the meantime, I am still waiting for proof that the original posts that gave rise to this thread even came from a Christian.

  785. #791 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    As to iggy and his threats, the closest I could come to a threat was “when I unleash the full wrath of the Trinity of Hannibal Lector, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and the Noodle Appendage” at the end of one of his posts.

    Goldstein was lying?

    shocker.

    *yawn*

    I’ve seen his spiel so many times, on so many blogs now, that I can hardly manage to rise to the bait any more.

  786. #792 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    Anges Law? Sounds good to me.

  787. #793 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    In the meantime, I am still waiting for proof that the original posts that gave rise to this thread even came from a Christian.

    Liar. Your history shows that you ignore any evidence that contradicts your narrow thin version of reality. You post such things merely to try and rile up some troglodyte base that you and your type appeals to.

  788. #794 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #799:

    Atheism isn’t foundational to anything. Atheism isn’t a political movement; it’s a lack of a belief.

  789. #795 Brian Coughlan
    July 14, 2008

    I think we need one for fatwa envy as well.

    I rather think Fatwa Envy is clever and snappy enough on it’s own. Regarding the other, how about Papal Bull? After all Pope Pius XI started this nonsense way back in the 30′s :

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/encyc/p11divin.htm

  790. #796 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    Oh,this just in:

    Alabama’s attorney general was caught with his pants down,with a male aide,by his wife.Oh,he’s a conservative christian btw,and supported bills to outlaw sex toys,and loves the death penalty….
    Shamelessly stolen from here:

    http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/07/verily_homosexuality_is_the_do.php

  791. #797 scooter
    July 14, 2008

    #788

    The Virgin Marx Fallacy

  792. #798 Ichthyic
    July 14, 2008

    Posted by: Whatever…

    …and there goes Legion, rapidly sockpuppeting like the mad fool he is.

    get lost, freak.

  793. #799 Andrés Diplotti
    July 14, 2008

    The argument was that atheims is foundational to communism…and of course its POLITICAL expression takes many forms.

    Communal property of means of production is foundational to communism. Its atheism is a historical contingence. Accident, not substance.

  794. #800 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    The argument was that atheims is foundational to communism…and of course its POLITICAL expression takes many forms.

    In a small part yes. Class struggle and economics are much more relevant. But even those are pushed to the side when we talk about the practice of communism in the 20th c.

    As practiced, paranoia, totalitarianism, power grab and control of the population is much more relevant. Atheism is as much as fault as is the fact that they needed to eat and drink.

  795. #801 John Phillips, FCD
    July 14, 2008

    Who cares? look, it’s the liar for cheeses and crackers again. I can well imagine that you would automatically see anything an atheist would write as threatening. After all, it just might make you question your beliefs if you weren’t so stupid and dishonest. However, all the other regulars didn’t appear threatened by iggy, only possibly puzzled by such as the quote I pasted in my last post, and apparently annoyed or irritated at him knocking religion and xianity in general by sometimes referring to him as a troll and questioning why he was blocked by the spam filter.

    As to the source of PZ’s threats, go back to this thread and read;

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/i_get_email_special_cracker_ed.php

    then go away, you nasty bit of slime.

  796. #802 Matt
    July 14, 2008

    Kobra (re post 770):

    I’m not sure I understand you. I was attempting to say that I was ashamed of the person writing this email. I wasn’t intending to say that religion should be immune to criticism; indeed it should. (Thoughtful and reasonable criticism, that is.) I felt angry at the writer of the email because he apparently thinks so little of his religion that he can ignore one of its basic teachings.

  797. #803 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    If atheism caused communism, then a decrease in the population of pirates caused global warming:

    http://www.venganza.org/piratesarecool4.gif

  798. #804 Arno
    July 14, 2008

    “There was a stone tablet that just came out in the news a week ago and it was from the Jews and they have said it was about a messiah who would die and rise up again after 3 days.”

    ….Oh dear, sounds like someone should read the artual news article. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1820685,00.html?cnn=yes

    To quote the part that is actually interesting:
    “Israel Knohl, an expert in Talmudic and biblical language at Jerusalem’s Hebrew University who was not involved in the first research on the artifact, claims that it refers to a historic 1st-century Jewish rebel named Simon who was killed by the Romans in 4 B.C., and should read “In three days, you shall live. I Gabriel command you.” If so, Jesus-era Judaism had begun to explore the idea of a three-day resurrection before Jesus was born.

    This, in turn, undermines one of the strongest literary arguments employed by Christians over centuries to support the historicity of the Resurrection (in which they believe on faith): the specificity and novelty of the idea that the Messiah would die on a Friday and rise on a Sunday. Who could make such stuff up? But, as Knohl told TIME, maybe the Christians had a model to work from. The idea of a “dying and rising messiah appears in some Jewish texts, but until now, everyone thought that was the impact of Christianity on Judaism,” he says. “But for the first time, we have proof that it was the other way around. The concept was there before Jesus.” If so, he goes on, “this should shake our basic view of Christianity. … What happens in the New Testament [could have been] adopted by Jesus and his followers based on an earlier messiah story.””

    In other words: Jesus’ ressurrection is copyright infringement.
    Nevertheless, the article itself already suggests that this line is just one interpretation, and people really cannot tell whether the whole messiah raising in 3 days thing is actually on the stone.
    IF true however, it is massive evidence AGAINST Christianity.

    Funny how people fail to read stuff properly. Even from something as simple as an article in Time.

  799. #805 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #810:

    I might have misread your post.

  800. #806 Cheese and Crackers
    July 14, 2008

    John, where is the proof that this came from a Christian?

    And you are good at name calling. I bet you have short one.

  801. #807 scooter
    July 14, 2008

    #794

    More to the point communism wasn’t even communism.

    Yup, they get to State Capitalism and that’s as far as totalitarianism goes, no matter which direction they came from

    Right meets Left, the masses lose BigTime.

    Stay tuned and pay close attention
    ———–
    You Tube Eucharist Challenge

  802. #808 Rob
    July 14, 2008

    @681:

    Check out Ghastly at http://www.ghastlycomic.com/

    **WARNING** That site is seriously not safe for work. Wrong, blasphemous, and absolutely hilarious.

  803. #809 GDad
    July 14, 2008

    PZ has a job at a “collage.” When does he find the time?

  804. #810 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    John, where is the proof that this came from a Christian?

    And you are good at name calling. I bet you have short one.

    well there goes another irony meter

  805. #811 Jeff
    July 14, 2008

    #765
    There is no bandwidth issue unless the image itself is hosted on a scienceblogs server, which wouldn’t generally be the case. A ban would be for aesthetic reasons only, and quite reasonable if the place starts to turn into FARK.

  806. #812 Mena
    July 14, 2008

    @775:
    I hope they do make Jesus a citizen, then we can round his ass up with the rest of them goddam trouble-makin’ anti-war liberal loud-mouthed jews, and ship ‘em all back to Africa with the Mexicans.

    Not to mention making him pay taxes!

  807. #813 John Phillips, FCD
    July 14, 2008

    Cheeses and crackers can’t even read now, what a surprise. You really are a sad specimen. One can only feel sorrow for you and wonder in amzement how you manage to survive outside an institute.

  808. #814 Head Cheese
    July 14, 2008

    Still waiting for that PROOF that the sender was a Christian.

    Do you know them personally?

  809. #815 John Phillips, FCD
    July 14, 2008

    Rev. BigDumbChimp, you should do what I do, get them by the container load about once a week at the moment. Though I might have to increase that to once a day at this rate :)

  810. #816 True Bob
    July 14, 2008

    Communism is atheistic, alright.

    As are Libertarianism, Capitalism, Representative Republics, Democracies, blah blah blah.

    Now how about a nice godly poitical form? How about…DICTATORSHIP!

    idjits.

  811. #817 Andrés Diplotti
    July 14, 2008

    #821, I think it would be a holy mess. He would have to be issued a death certificate and then an un-death certificate… I don’t know if it’s worth.

  812. #818 Kel
    July 14, 2008

    Still waiting for that PROOF that the sender was a Christian.

    We’re still waiting for PROOF of God. Maybe we can do a trade…

  813. #819 Duvenoy
    July 14, 2008

    “Atheists” burning churchs in the Soviet Union was done mainly by government sanction and resulted, as anyone could have predicted, in driving the Russian Orthodox Church, et al., underground. In the main, it is theists that burn the churchs of other theists for no better reasons than a difference in doctrine or a different race, or indeed, sometimes just for the hell of it.

    We atheists should be happy that we require no churchs because of the likelyhood that someone would piously torch them even before the varnish dried on the pews.

    doov

  814. #820 Aaron Baker
    July 14, 2008

    Egad,

    I’d immediately share all of this with the FBI. Please take it at least half-way seriously.

  815. #821 Cottage Cheese
    July 14, 2008

    What we should really worry about is the NOTORIOUS Jewish Lobby mentioned twice by Richard Dawkins in his Delusional book.

    (Pages 4 and 44 of the hardback.)

    They are the most powerful in the world!

    Dawkins, the atheists, SAYS SO!

  816. #822 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    Still waiting for that PROOF that the sender was a Christian.

    No you aren’t.

  817. #823 Cottgage Cheese
    July 14, 2008

    Damn, the new books are coming in early. Gotta get to the warehouse and get set up for shelving.
    I am sick of manual labor, and I can’t wait for classes to start this fall.

    On a side note, Barnes and Nobel is starting an athiesim section, so I will get to see the new shit by Loftus FIRST.

    Can’t wait to post some reviews at Amazon. He can’t delete them there.

    Later, boys.

  818. #824 True Bob
    July 14, 2008

    Duvenoy, I am sure you know, but for the sake of the mouth-breathing legion, I want to add that Stalin’s paranoid INTENT was to suppress the influence of the church, as opposed to spreading the “ideology” of atheism.

  819. #825 John C. Randolph
    July 14, 2008

    I just got an e-mail from Melanie Kroll, and she disavows the threatening message sent from her computer. She thanked me for bringing it to her attention.

    The lesson here is, be careful about who has access to your computer.

    -jcr

  820. #826 Dutch Delight
    July 14, 2008

    To be honest, I’m pretty amazed at the poor education in the US on things like communism, you’d think people would study the history and motivations of the big enemy of decades past with a bit more accuracy and attention to detail.

    On the other hand, if Iraq is anything to go by…

  821. #827 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    Barnes and Nobel are starting an athiesim section? Shit,Im sacred new…..

  822. #828 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    No JCR,

    the lesson is,dont post IP addresses on the net if people might try to go all Gordon Ramsay about them and send emails to people we do not know are actually the ones that sent the offending messages in the first place.
    Ive tried to get this message across all day,and shouldnt have needed to,because PZ said it himself and asked for restraint.There were some rather inspired people in here before tho who just wouldnt pause for a rational thought.

  823. #829 nobi yuno
    July 14, 2008

    you really can’t make something like this up – death threats coming from a 1-800-FLOWERS email address. has anybody considered the possibility that the guy is just an amateur performance artist or freelance comedian?

  824. #830 Dutch Delight
    July 14, 2008

    Posted by: Cottage Cheese

    Dawkins, the atheists, SAYS SO!

    It’s funny how religionists walk into their own traps. By assuming atheism functions as a religion Cottage automatically assumed RD is some kind of authority figure for atheists who can rule by decree.

    The cheap attempt at quote mining makes it complete. RD is simply right in saying that the Jewish lobby in the US is notorious for having a lot of political influence when looking at their actual numbers. Nothing strange about it.

    New lies please, these are old and stale.

  825. #831 MissPrism
    July 14, 2008

    Here’s that song in its entirety:

    I don’t believe in Jahweh, Buddha, Ganesh, Zeus or Allah
    And I don’t believe in Limbo, Hades, Heaven or Valhalla
    I don’t believe in Brahma, karma, Rama, Thor or Jupiter
    I’ve studied both the Testaments but can’t say which is stupiter

    I’ve got no time for Odin, Ceres, Poseidon or Kingu
    They’re as fictional as Sherlock Homes or Arthur Dent or Pingu
    Venus, Saturn, Mercury and Mars provoke my laughter
    The one thing gods are good for is to name the planets after

    I think that Christianity, Islam and Scientology
    Are all a scam that preys upon a quirk of our psychology
    I care not if you curse me by the name of Baal or Shiva,
    For I am the very model of a fervent unbeliever.

    I don’t believe in Atlas, Balder, Freia, Yam or Hester
    Or in reincarnation, because when you die you fester
    I think the Holy Spirit as nonsensical as Frigg is
    And I’ll happily eat lobsters, cows and tasty little piggies (yum yum!)

    I thoroughly despise the likes of Donohue and Bakker.
    I posit that the Eucharist is just a frackin’ cracker.
    Though many people call me an insufferable know-it-all
    They’re equally dismissive when it comes to Quetzlcoatl.

    I don’t need any mantra, tantra, deity or deva
    For I am the very model of a fervent unbeliever.

  826. #832 Iain Walker
    July 14, 2008

    Whatever… (Comment #799):

    The argument was that atheims [sic] is foundational to communism

    Actually, the most you could plausibly argue is that atheism is a consequence of certain assumptions of Marxist theory, which makes Marxism at best a sufficient condition for atheism, but not a necessary one. That falls way short of being foundational to communism, which would require the order of dependence to be the other way round.

    Atheism and communism have a similar relationship to each other as opposition to smoking and Nazism – in each case the former is at best an incidental consequence of the ideological presuppositions of the latter.

    Communism as practiced during the 20th Century was, and often still is, anti-religious (although not consistently so), but a lot of that was down to anti-clericalism, since the clergy were typically seen as part and parcel of the old political order. Where religion is seen as a political threat (and to the totalitarian mindset the “threat” need amount to no more than people thinking differently from those in power), it’s going to get stomped on. And if at any stage it turns out to be useful, those in power will co-opt it for as long as it remains useful (e.g., Stalin’s co-option of the Orthodox Church during WW2). It’s politics and power at work here, not disbelief in a deity.

  827. #833 mayhempix
    July 14, 2008

    “Looks like Melanie is about to learn important lessons in computer security.
    Posted by: Julie K | July 13, 2008 6:36 PM
    Oh boy, Monday is not going to be her day.
    Posted by: mayhempix | July 13, 2008 6:47 PM”

    Our friend Melanie Kroll should be explaining to her boss just about now about that email to PZ from her account. Too bad we can’t be flies on the wall and listen in…

  828. #834 Nick Gotts
    July 14, 2008

    Barnes and Nobel is starting an athiesim section – Cottage Cheese

    An athiesim section? A whole section on how to simulate athies? Well, admittedly there’s the photographer Oscar Athie, the artist Marco Athie, and two places in France – Athie, Côte-d’Or, and Athie, Yonne – but it still seems rather specialised, even for such a big bookstore. Are you sure you’ve got this right, CC?

  829. #835 AJ Milne
    July 14, 2008

    You have two choices my fucked up friend, first you can quit your job for the good of the children. Or you can get your brains beat in.

    … I love the ‘for the good of the children’ thing. Yer basic, standard-issue demagoguery (it’s always for the children, see), coupled with hilariously inverted priorities–and a level of beyond the pale irony thrown in for good measure. See, ridicule of an absurdity (in response, remember, in the first place, to threats to a young adult), well, that’s a danger ‘to the children’. The raving homicidal rage of the nutter who wrote this and the folk he’s not so tacitly endorsing in doing so? Apparently, we can assume that’s no hazard.

    It’s funny ‘cos it’s batshit insane. So much that just about the only thing that might make it funnier for me would have to be seein’ said writer have to explain his reasoning here to a judge in a criminal trial.

  830. #836 Dirty3rd
    July 14, 2008

    that’s just fantastic. i wonder how this will develop… has anyone contacted the hater’s employer?

  831. #837 Michelle
    July 14, 2008

    “Yeah, because atheists do not burn churches down or anything”

    Are you mistaking us with Satanists, genius? Why would we burn down your churches?

    Frankly I think churches need to be preserved… Then turned into libraries or restaurants. We did it a couple times here! These are COOL buildings, man!

  832. #838 E.V.
    July 14, 2008

    I can’t wait to hear about the MKroll/1-800-FLOWERS brouhaha. Surely a shitstorm is swirling this Monday morning at her office. If MKroll did not send the message, I wish her the best.
    ********
    Cottgage Cheese? (notice his own misspelling) It’s Kevin. Ignore the little petulant troll.

  833. #839 AJ Milne
    July 14, 2008

    Also, I trust everyone’s seen today’s Jesus and mo?

  834. #840 E.V.
    July 14, 2008

    I can’t wait to hear about the MKroll/1-800-FLOWERS brouhaha. Surely a shitstorm is swirling this Monday morning at her office. If MKroll did not send the message, I wish her the best.
    ********
    Cottgage Cheese? (notice his own misspelling) It’s Kevin. Ignore the little petulant troll.

  835. #841 E.V.
    July 14, 2008

    Oops, There’s an echo in here.

  836. #842 mayhempix
    July 14, 2008

    “I just got an e-mail from Melanie Kroll, and she disavows the threatening message sent from her computer. She thanked me for bringing it to her attention.
    The lesson here is, be careful about who has access to your computer.
    -jcr
    Posted by: John C. Randolph | July 14, 2008 9:38 AM”

    I wonder if 1800flowers will try and determine who did send it.

  837. #843 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    that’s just fantastic. i wonder how this will develop… has anyone contacted the hater’s employer?

    /headdesk

  838. #844 JeffreyD
    July 14, 2008

    Anges Law sounds good to me, hope it gets you laid, clinteas.

    Kobra, Tixx’s Law sounds incredibly ugly, more like a discussion on parasites. (grin)

    Pax Nabisco

  839. #845 Nick Gotts
    July 14, 2008

    Somewhat OT, but good for a laugh: the Vatican made a loss last year, because of the weak dollar.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7501486.stm

    Wasn’t there something in the original company prospectus about not laying up your treasures on Earth, where moth, rust, and credit crunches do corrupt? Time to crank up the sale of indulgences again?

  840. #846 Randy
    July 14, 2008

    Hmmm… it looks like the florist is getting a lot of attention here, but I think everyone is doing the second writer a disservice. In fact, I’d say we’re doing ourselves a disservice by ignoring the possibilities inherent in the second note.
    Actually, I hesitate to call it a “note”. It’s more like a poem. Almost lyrical in its’ vitriol; it flows, (to coin a phrase), trippingly from the tongue.
    If I were the editor of a right-wing hate-poem magazine, (although, Gawd knows the market is really saturated with them right now), I would hire this person in a heartbeat.
    So, everyone – let’s hear it for smonte19.

  841. #847 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    the original company prospectus

    Ruined me. I ‘m glad I wasn’t drinking coffee.

  842. #848 Michelle
    July 14, 2008

    “I just got an e-mail from Melanie Kroll, and she disavows the threatening message sent from her computer. She thanked me for bringing it to her attention.

    The lesson here is, be careful about who has access to your computer.

    -jcr”

    Poor girl. This totally sucks to be stuck in this. Some folks are so cowardly and so low, hiding like that behind someone else’s identity. COWARD. PUSSY!

    I guess their mail accounts are pretty easy to hack. Or her password was too easy…

  843. #849 Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The
    July 14, 2008

    I love this ironic little missive tagged to the second email:

    “Making the world a better place one message at a time.”

    Superlols.

  844. #850 -R
    July 14, 2008

    “Yeah, because atheists do not burn churches down or anything”

    You’re thinking of Odinists, my friend, Odinists.

  845. #851 Andrés Diplotti
    July 14, 2008

    An athiesim section? A whole section on how to simulate athies?

    It would seem to me that “athies” is the singular form and “athiesim” the plural. You know, like in cherub/cherubim. That would make athiesim… Atheist angels? Now that is an appealing notion.

  846. #852 LawnBoy
    July 14, 2008

    I guess their mail accounts are pretty easy to hack. Or her password was too easy…

    Or she’s lying.

    You’re probably right that she’s getting screwed here, but we just don’t know.

    And we likely will never know.

  847. #853 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    I guess their mail accounts are pretty easy to hack. Or her password was too easy…

    You’d be surprised how simple people make their passwords. Chances are though that 800-flowers has a strong password policy (which doesn’t mean it can’t be cracked just takes longer). If, and I say If, the email did actually come from her account, it could be as simple as someone walked into her office when she went to lunch and her computer was unlocked.

  848. #854 Dr Benway
    July 14, 2008

    So I hope it’s clear: emails sources can be spoofed.

    Even when there’s no spoof, I’d advise against reacting to criminal threats before consulting with police. The destruction of evidence can be both intentional and unintentional.

    Investigators and neuroscientists know that the truth is in the first interview. Not the second, not the fifth, but the first. Why? Because language destroys memory.

    Once you talk about some event, other aspects of your memory for the event will rapidly fade. Language coding is like taking a vector-format representation of a bitmap image: what’s lost in detail is gained in storage space.

    Surprise is the investigator’s friend. When people know the investigator is coming, they rehearse and sanitize their story. They clean their desks. They wash their clothes. They hide the bong. They put away the pipe bomb materials laid out on the kitchen table.

    Why might a large corporation cover up evidence of some worker’s crime? Employers with deep pockets can become the target of civil suits on the order of hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars.

    The damages that arise from criminal threatening can be more costly than you might think. Just ask Ayan Hirsi Ali. Security systems, investigations, and attorneys are not cheap.

    When you interview someone who doesn’t expect you and you fail to find evidence of guilt, you can enjoy a greater confidence in that person’s innocence – saves time when you’ve got a dozen or so death threats to wade through.

  849. #855 clinteas
    July 14, 2008

    Oh geez,20 hours later,and we seem to start at basecamp again,with people commenting on the IP addresses…..

    Im going to bed,wake me if there is any new development,or Melanie sues any of the jerks that thought a whois query will unveil her role in the great death threat conspiracy !

  850. #856 mayhempix
    July 14, 2008

    I sent the following article to PZ yesterday and I recieved a notice saying it wasn’t deliverable. Either there are too many messages or he closed the account.

    You gotta love Oklahoma… a church giving away a semi-automatic rifle. But I guess someone has to arm those Christian avengers.

    http://www.koco.com/news/16860079/detail.html

    OKLAHOMA CITY — An Oklahoma church canceled a controversial gun giveaway for teenagers at a weekend youth conference.

    Windsor Hills Baptist had planned to give away a semiautomatic assault rifle until one of the event’s organizers was unable to attend.

    The church’s youth pastor, Bob Ross, said it’s a way of trying to encourage young people to attend the event. The church expected hundreds of teenagers from as far away as Canada.
    “We have 21 hours of preaching and teaching throughout the week,” Ross said.

    A video on the church Web site shows the shooting competition from last year’s conference. A gun giveaway was part of the event last year. This year, organizers included it in their marketing.

    “I don’t want people thinking ‘My goodness, we’re putting a weapon in the hand of somebody that doesn’t respect it who are then going to go out and kill,’” said Ross. “That’s not at all what we’re trying to do.”

    Ross said the conference isn’t all about guns, but rather about teens finding faith.

    “You make a lot of new friends down here,” said Vikki Goncharenko, who attended the conference. “You get to meet new people. There’s a bunch of things that are going on. It’s just, you have a wonderful time.”

    Friday evening, Ross said the gun giveaway had been canceled. Pastor emeritus Jim Vineyard, who ran the event, injured his foot and wouldn’t be able to attend. The gun giveaway was also removed from the church Web site.

    Ross said the church would give the gun away next year instead. He said the church spent $800 buying the gun for the promotion.

  851. #857 E.V.
    July 14, 2008

    Work crew member, Office intern…the possibilities are not endless. What do you bet her password is MKROLL1?

  852. #858 Nick Gotts
    July 14, 2008

    That would make athiesim… Atheist angels? Now that is an appealing notion. – Andrés Diplotti
    See Philip Pullman’s The Subtle Knife! Gay atheist angels, no less!

  853. #859 Ami
    July 14, 2008

    check out his comment – “what I would like to know is how did you even
    get a job at a collage”

    Yeah, right. This guy can’t spell college and he wants you to quit your job? Conversation should go along the lines of “How did you get into a collage?” “Why, it was a pretty project my niece did for the art project.”

    Religion attacking science = Dark Ages.

  854. #860 David Marjanovi?, OM
    July 14, 2008

    You could also have mentioned Liberation Theology

    It is mentioned in the Wikipedia article on Christian Communism that I linked to.

    David, no I don’t agree that Communism is basically just another religion.

    It is a political philosphy which, as developed in the past century, is based on dialectical materialism.

    Atheism is basic to its system.

    I think what you want to say is that atheism more or less necessarily leads to communism. That is wrong.

    “Political philosophy”… sure, but damn similar to a religion. Let’s see. Infallible prophets: check (Marx, Engels; usually Lenin; often others in addition — notably different ones in different denominations). Infallible scripture: check (works of the above). Supernatural forces: check (inevitable progress of society: slaveholder society to feudalism to capitalism to socialism to communism). Complete set of guidelines on how to live: check. Belief that doubt is, well, heresy: check. Martyrs: check. Miracles: lots of them in Maoism at least.

    All that’s missing is an afterlife — except for Kim Il-Sung. (Mao has passed into “Chinese folk religion”; they sacrifice oranges to him in temples these days.)

    This is no more rationalistic than, say, Calvinism. Communism has basic principles that are simply held on faith in the absence or even against the presence of evidence.

    And John, I see no EVIDENCE that the threats you mention were made by Christians.

    So you really think it’s a simpler hypothesis that we are looking at a VAST conspiracy of Southern Baptists that try to make the poor Catholics look bad?

    Didn’t think so. You seem to have a lot of practice in wanting to believe.

    Thank dog,its the morning in the US,and the reasonable people are coming to reclaim the thread,man it was dark and gloomy in here for a while there LOL
    Hello MAJeff,Moses,RevBig,David M and others !

    I’m in the “Central” European time zone and have nothing to do with either the US or any mornings :o)

    He really tried to fill the KC Star blog with rants signed “Yum Yum, Christian Brains are delish” and talked about visting the “wrath of Hannibal Lector” on people.

    That’s an obvious joke. A tasteless one (pardon the tasteless pun), one that I wouldn’t have made, but still an obvious one.

    It looks like a case of “fine, I’m whatever you’re afraid of”.

  855. #861 marcia
    July 14, 2008

    Catholic League FIRST TENET listed:

    “When slanderous assaults are made against the Catholic Church, the Catholic League hits the newspapers, television, and radio talk shows defending the right of the Church to promote its teachings with as much verve as any other institution in society.

    Gotta feel bad for PZ Myers, yet
    “Don’t wrestle with pigs, because you just get dirty and the pigs like it.”

    Methinks PZ made this a banner week for Catholic League donations.

  856. #862 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    I’m the sole IT manager / admin for a multistate company that has 500 or so employees.

    When I joined the company there was no strong password policy.

    I’d say that 70% of the people had some variation of “password” or their name as their password.

    The other 30% weren’t much better.

  857. #863 Orlando
    July 14, 2008

    The latest on the original controversy: An Orlando local news station has published an update.

    UCF Catholic Group Faces Hazing Charges for Protecting ‘Body of Christ’

    http://www.wftv.com/news/16872192/detail.html

    Apparently, “forced consumption of food” is forbidden by university policy.

  858. #864 Dr Benway
    July 14, 2008

    For a time I was getting a few emails from myself offering sweet deals on some penis enlargement drug.

    I can VNC to a corporate computer in another state and send email from there. The person using Melanie’s computer (if not Melanie herself) to send death threats might not be in the building.

  859. #865 Kobra
    July 14, 2008

    #867: I lol’d hard when I read The Subtle Knife for that very reason.

  860. #866 Brian Coughlan
    July 14, 2008

    Methinks PZ made this a banner week for Catholic League donations. Posted by: marcia | July 14, 2008 10:40 AM

    He also made it a banner week for his blog. Besides, “a pox on both their houses” plays to atheist strengths rather than theistic ones. Simply making people tired of religious argument works in our favour, in a few weeks all people are likely to remember about this issue is that catholics freak out about cracker abuse.

    For example, what can you remember about the cartoons and teddy bear fiasco? These are exactly the kind of productive, corrosive memes we need out there.

  861. #867 Glen Davidson
    July 14, 2008
    By the way, if PZ does actually “desecrate” the crackers, he’ll be demonstrating the opposite of his claim that they’re “just crackers.” Smash the idol, and you’re agreeing with your opponents that it’s more than an “ordinary chunk of matter”, even if hardly what it is claimed to be. Glen D
    -

    The liberation of the human mind has rarely been furthered by men of solemnity, but rather by the freeliving people who heaved dead cats into religious sanctuaries, and happily went on with their business; proving to all men that doubt, after all, was safe – that the god in the sanctuary was a fraud. One laugh is worth ten thousand syllogisms. ~H.L. Mencken

    That’s a laugh, not taking up the tactics that rival religions use. As in, your average Satanist is one who thinks that desecrating the “holy symbols” of Xianity means something, precisely because they do think that such symbols have power (if possibly only psychologically).

    Mencken didn’t go around “desecrating” the “holy objects.” He satirized and skewered. Nietzsche deconstructed, and labeled religion unclean. These were a whole lot more meaningful than slashing a Jesus picture, or “desecrating” what one has repeatedly labeled as “just a cracker.”

    Give me “the host” to eat, and I’ll simply eat it to see what it’s like. That’s the only “desecration” that someone who says that these are merely tasteless charms has any business doing (soliciting tasteless crackers also makes no sense, if it’s “just a cracker”).

    IOW, don’t compare the intelligent criticisms of religion by someone like Mencken with the lackwit juvenile tactic of “violating” some worthless chunk of processed wheat. Mencken’s writings were wit, the threat to “just a cracker” is vulgar grandstanding, and intellectual bankruptcy.

    Glen D
    http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

  862. #868 Epinephrine
    July 14, 2008

    Re: strong passwords.

    I hate them. If it’s a site I plan to access regularly, I can be bothered to memorise a password like 7yh8*J%2, and I suppose that for a work account that you log into every day it would be doable; my work unfortunately not only wants strong passwords, but insists that you change your password regularly (4 times a year).

    That’s a bit much. I just get ReT!s4!d memorised, and now I have to change it? It just results in people writing their passwords down, creating a new weakness. Strong passwords=look for a sticky note on the back of the monitor.

  863. #869 James
    July 14, 2008

    PZ MYers is the best argument I can find against tenure.

    Here we have a liberal who wants to confiscate what he can’t legitimately earn and silence those he disagrees with.

    You can’t make this stuff up.

    It’s time to end the public funding of education.

  864. #870 Stephanurus
    July 14, 2008

    See the latest Jesus and Mo cartoon at:

    http://www.jesusandmo.net/2008/07/14/mass/

  865. #871 True Bob
    July 14, 2008

    Paul Zachary Myers, an athiest college professor

    My emphasis above.

    So who’s the athiest professor of them all? Who’s more athiey than anyone else?

  866. #872 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    hate them. If it’s a site I plan to access regularly, I can be bothered to memorise a password like 7yh8*J%2, and I suppose that for a work account that you log into every day it would be doable; my work unfortunately not only wants strong passwords, but insists that you change your password regularly (4 times a year).

    Trust me. You want the company that supplies you with your paycheck to be secure. And we insist they change every 3 months too( What do you base “a bit much” on?). And not repeat the same password. And lock you out if you type the wrong password 5 times. And a bunch of other things. More secure places require you have an ID token that uses an algorithm to sync a constantly changing password with the account servers at your office. You have to enter your user id, password AND the code on the ID at that time.

    Sticky notes are a problem but really, once a person has physical access to the machine, the password is merely a small road block, if one at all. We have policy against that too. Sure not everyone follows it, but their are things that to you if you don’t. The strong passwords . security is for those that do not have physical access to your computer.

  867. #873 Mark
    July 14, 2008

    Re: James (#869)

    No thanks. I really would prefer not to descend back into another Dark Ages.

  868. #874 John M.
    July 14, 2008

    #862 “someone walked into her office when she went to lunch and her computer was unlocked.”

    What kind of network manager allows machines under his control to have accounts remain open indefinitely at times when no one is at the machine? Perhaps ’1800flowers’ should be looking to replace some-one in their computer admin.

    More importantly, let’s not have a witch hunt for the guilty party. Disgruntled ex-employees often buy guns and seek revenge – it could be PZ on the receiving end this time.

  869. #875 SC
    July 14, 2008

    From the article linked to by Orlando:

    Cook said his hazing complaint cited a UCF anti-hazing policy banning the forced consumption of any food in which the initiation or admission into or affiliation with a University of Central Florida organization may be directly or indirectly conditioned.

    That is one big decision to lay on the shoulders of the UCF administration.

    Cook also filed charges accusing the Catholic club of violating the school’s underage alcohol policy by serving communal wine to underage students.

    :)

    Paul Zachary Myers, an athiest college professor at the University of Minnesota Morris who saw our story has since pledged to desecrate the Eucharist and post photographic evidence on the Internet in protest of Cook’s treatment.

    !!!

  870. #876 spencer
    July 14, 2008

    It’s time to end the public funding of education.

    Well, whatever money was spent on your education was clearly wasted, since you apparently don’t even know that tenure is granted by private universities as well.

  871. #877 Nick Gotts
    July 14, 2008

    Here we have a liberal who wants to confiscate what he can’t legitimately earn and silence those he disagrees with.

    You can’t make this stuff up. – James

    Yes you can – as you just proved. Liar.

  872. #878 Arno
    July 14, 2008

    #869: “Here we have a liberal who wants to confiscate what he can’t legitimately earn and silence those he disagrees with.”

    Confiscate what and silence who? Last time I checked, this blog had a policy that allows for free posting, just as you are doing right now. So no silencing, except when the person is extremely rude, sock-puppeting or uses similar strategies.

    I mean, your words sound nicely eloquent, but when you fail to give accurate examples, they are nothing less than covered-up bitching.

  873. #879 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    grrrr hit submit instead of preview. but you get my point

  874. #880 New Yorker
    July 14, 2008

    #872/#873 – 800flowers uses RSA security tokens for remote users – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_token – they are reasonably state of the art.

  875. #881 LordJiro
    July 14, 2008

    #869: Let me repeat this: HE IS GETTING DEATH THREATS OVER A HYPOTHETICAL ‘HOLY’ CRACKER! He’s not using the Bible as toilet paper. He’s not gluing clay breasts to a statue of Jesus. He’s not gluing the pope’s head to old man porn. HE IS THREATENING A CRACKER. Most Catholics I’ve met understand that it’s symbolic. It’s the extra-loony Catholics(who are apparently quite vocal) that believe that the cracker literally becomes the Body of Christ.

    Besides, didn’t someone in the Bible say something about idolatry?

  876. #882 Rev. BigDumbCHimp
    July 14, 2008

    What kind of network manager allows machines under his control to have accounts remain open indefinitely at times when no one is at the machine? Perhaps ’1800flowers’ should be looking to replace some-one in their computer admin.

    Not a good one. But how long does it take to send an email? 2 mins?

  877. #883 jj
    July 14, 2008

    Sweet, headers and all. Maybe I should flood their email accounts…

  878. #884 John Charles
    July 14, 2008

    Okay, am I the only one lame enough to admit that the only reason I’m here this morning is to find out what the hell happened with mkroll?

  879. #885 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    800flowers uses RSA security tokens for remote users –

    Not that I don’t believe you, I’m just curious how you know that.

    And that is an extra layer that you’d expect a large company like 1-800-flowers would use.

  880. #886 blf
    July 14, 2008

    No, no, say it ain’t so! Here I am, eating crackers with cheese and wine (all cheese-eating surrender monkey of course, being there and it’s their national day), giggling until I read Miss Prism @634 rudely saying:

    [The gods are] as fictional as Sherlock Homes or Arthur Dent or Pingu

    Arthur Dent is not fiction!!!1!!11! The proof is the mice. A real planet wouldn’t evolved anything as mindbogglingly cute as a mouse. They’d all be stuffen and ate.

    And, and, if he wasn’t real, we woudln’t have bistromathematics! Resturant bills would make sense. That’s so obviousely crazy its’ clear your not even rong.

  881. #887 New Yorker
    July 14, 2008

    #855 – I was at the home of an 800flowers remote employee once. I’m a geek – I notice such things.

  882. #888 Arno
    July 14, 2008

    Personally, I am more curious why there’s no new Pharyngula loving from PZ going on. I know he is busy, but I cannot help but wonder whether or not he is still alive.

  883. #889 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 14, 2008

    I was at the home of an 800flowers remote employee once. I’m a geek – I notice such things.

    Yeah me too.

  884. #890 Glen Davidson
    July 14, 2008

    There’s been a weird development in this story. Apparently “kidnapping” the host constitutes “hazing”:

    Catholics consider the consecrated wafer, the Eucharist, among the most sacred objects in the world and believe it becomes the ‘Body of Christ’ through transubstantiation.

    Student Government Senator Webster Cook filed the hazing charges with University of Central Florida administrators shortly after he admitted violating church rules by bringing the Eucharist home from Mass on June 29, then holding it hostage for one week in a plastic bag before returning it.

    Cook said his hazing complaint cited a UCF anti-hazing policy banning the forced consumption of any food in which the initiation or admission into or affiliation with a University of Central Florida organization may be directly or indirectly conditioned.

    The rule, presumably, was intended to prevent fraternities from force-feeding pledges disgusting food, but Cook said the rule is clear and applies to all UCF clubs, including the Catholic Campus Ministries religious group. He insists the group is guilty because members ordered him to consume the Eucharist to remain at Mass.

    The Diocese of Orlando declined to comment about the charges.

    “Appropriate officials of the University of Central Florida are investigating the matter and due process is occurring,” said a spokesperson.

    Nearly two weeks after the incident, UCF spokesman Grant Heston confirmed the school was still reviewing the charges and had not yet decided whether they would be dismissed or brought through a formal trial conducted by administrators with UCF’s Office of Student Conduct. Recent groups convicted of hazing charges at UCF were fraternities, which faced several years of suspension as punishment.

    Cook also filed charges accusing the Catholic club of violating the school’s underage alcohol policy by serving communal wine to underage students.

    Previously, Diocese of Orlando Spokesperson Carol Brinati confirmed Catholic students filed charges of disruptive conduct with UCF administrators against Cook and a friend of his attending Mass with him on June 29 for their “disrespectful” behavior. Privacy laws prohibit UCF from discussing details of that case, but Cook’s friend told Channel 9 he checked with school officials, who told him to expect his charges to move through the system soon.

    Cook is also facing a more public set of charges filed by one of his peers in UCF’s Student Government Association. SGA Officer Anthony Furbush filed an impeachment affidavit against Cook claiming Cook violated SGA ethics when he announced he was an SGA official during Mass and cited that reason, along with the fact Mass was held in a public campus hall, as why he didn’t have to leave when asked.

    Cook denied that allegation. Hearings on the impeachment charge could begin Wednesday. If convicted, Cook would be stripped of his SGA position.

    SGA officials at UCF are responsible for allocating and overseeing a more than $13 million annual budget, which comes from student fees. The spots are coveted by students, with some candidates spending $10,000 in private funds to win elections for the highest positions in SGA.

    The SGA impeachment, overseen by students, is separate from the pending Office of Student Conduct case overseen by UCF administrators. The administrative court could issue punishments ranging from probation to an outright expulsion from school.

    Cook, who said he decided to return the Eucharist after receiving threats against his life and afterlife from angry Catholics, maintains he did nothing wrong and says he still deserves an apology for being “attacked” during Mass. Cook also denied he apologized for his actions, as UCF officials claimed he did in a statement.

    However, Cook said he would be open to meeting with the student church members, who filed the disruptive conduct charges against him, in hopes of working out a deal for both sides to drop the charges before they end up in administrators’ hands, where suspension and expulsion would be on the table.

    Since Channel 9 broke the story it’s grabbed national headlines. Paul Zachary Myers, an athiest college professor at the University of Minnesota Morris who saw the story, has since pledged to desecrate the Eucharist and post photographic evidence on the Internet in protest of Cook’s treatment. The pledge attracted condemnation from the Catholic League, a Catholic civil rights group whose leader, Bill Donohue, suggested that UCF President John Hitt should expel Cook from school even after he returned the Eucharist.

    Cook’s friend, who asked to have his identied shielded out of fear, hopes the controversy will end soon.

    “I think it has gotten way out of hand, and it’s all based on a misunderstanding,” he said.

    http://www.wftv.com/irresistible/16872192/detail.html

    Leaving behind the current circus, the older circus still has its entertainments, it appears.

    “Hazing” seems to be the term that is the result of straining to find something, anything, to throw at the silly boy. Good grief, if there were any sense to this all, they’d slap him with some religious sanction, then let it all die down. Obviously none of the secular rules were actually made to deal with the horror of “kidnapping the body of Christ”, which seems oddly unable to defend itself, since it’s supposedly part and parcel of a risen God.

    Somehow they appear to think that religion doesn’t have the answer to religious issues, however, and have to drag this through venues that actually work, profane human sources of judgment. Is there any way to make religion look more silly than their own shenanigans do?

    Glen D
    http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

  885. #891 wÒÓ†
    July 14, 2008
  886. #892 E.V.
    July 14, 2008

    I have come to believe that Woot is a zen master. I feel oddly reassured when I see Woot’s boobies…

  887. #893 SC
    July 14, 2008

    Glen D,

    Did you actually read the article you posted? They’re not charging Cook with hazing; he’s charging them with hazing for trying to force him to consume the wafer. And someone else linked to the article just above.

    Gah, this is an annoying thread.

  888. #894 Escuerd
    July 14, 2008

    I know it’s simply writing out some Catholic doctrine explicitly, but I found the following wording to be especially hilarious:

    Two miracles take place at the consecration. The first is that the substance of the bread and wine change into Jesus Christ. Not His dead Body and Blood but His risen and living Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity – His whole resurrected Self. The second miracle is that the qualities of bread and wine still remain as though no change has occurred. This is necessary so that the Eucharist can be in a foodlike form that we can easily consume.
    :)

  889. #895 Glen Davidson
    July 14, 2008

    Did you actually read the article you posted? They’re not charging Cook with hazing; he’s charging them with hazing for trying to force him to consume the wafer.

    Opps, you’re right, SC. I didn’t read it carefully, because it just looked like some sort of bureaucratic nonsense going on.

    Kind of tough to see how he thinks he can make the “hazing” charge stick, though he’s like just making a point.

    Glen D
    http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

  890. #896 negentropyeater
    July 14, 2008

    SC,

    well, well, so Webster files his hazing charges ;

    Cook said his hazing complaint cited a UCF anti-hazing policy banning the forced consumption of any food in which the initiation or admission into or affiliation with a University of Central Florida organization may be directly or indirectly conditioned.

    …and the Catholic students filed disruptive charges ;

    Previously, Diocese of Orlando Spokesperson Carol Brinati confirmed Catholic students filed charges of disruptive conduct with UCF administrators against Cook and a friend of his attending Mass with him on June 29 for their “disrespectful” behavior.

    I did a search in the Florida statutes (2007) and I did find this;

    871.01 (1) Whoever willfully interrupts or disturbs any school or any assembly of people met for the worship of God or for any lawful purpose commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

    …it doesn’t look good for Webster.

  891. #897 W.
    July 14, 2008

    My little ditty to Mkroll:

    Dear M Kroll,

    I am a reader of Dr. Myer’s blog and giggled when I read your rather foul email to Dr. Myers.

    I love your use of the work cunt. VERY intellectual.

    I found the following question particularly funny:

    “How would you feel if nice folks starting ranting against Fags, and atheist like yourself.”

    I guess, as the crudeness of your “writing” indicates, you have not been out much as I am one of those fags you so easily disparage and let me tell you, idiots like you rant at me all day long. In addition, people who are NICE, do not “rant against Fags”. I do appreciate the fact that you capitalized the ‘f’ in fag. Made me feel all warm and fuzzy.

    Finally, I am wondering if your colleagues at 1 800 Flowers are interested in the threats you make and nasty language you use during your work hours on your work computer?

    Thanks for the laugh.

    One HUGE fag,

    William
    NYC

  892. #898 E.V.
    July 14, 2008

    “The second miracle is that the qualities of bread and wine still remain as though no change has occurred.”

    No, sadly the second miracle is that hordes of people can accept this as fact.

  893. #899 Dr Benway
    July 14, 2008

    I think the cracker cops made noise and then put hands on Cook who was just walking back to his seat with the host in his hand. From the articles, I see no evidence that Cook intended to disrupt the Mass.

    It’s been a while, but I seem to remember walking back to the pew with a host in my hand and putting it in my mouth as I knelt down. Things may have changed.

  894. #900 Escuerd
    July 14, 2008

    LordJiro #881:
    “Most Catholics I’ve met understand that it’s symbolic. It’s the extra-loony Catholics(who are apparently quite vocal) that believe that the cracker literally becomes the Body of Christ.”

    Heh, I suppose that makes them bad Catholics, since the “Real Presence” is a hugely important part of their doctrine.

    I was raised Catholic, and was surprised when I found out they believed it literally, actually. I had simply assumed that it must be symbolic, because I credited the people around me with better judgment than I should have. When I heard what the official dogma was, my opinion of the people who swallowed it whole diminished a bit.

  895. #901 E.V.
    July 14, 2008

    …(It was a) beacon which happened to LOOK like the grail. You must spank us. Yes, You must spank us all. And after the spanking…

  896. #902 True Bob
    July 14, 2008

    Escuerd,

    That is just hysterical. As if actual godman flesh and blood are inedible. You show me some, and I’ll try some nice messiah tartar.

  897. #903 Matt Penfold
    July 14, 2008

    W,

    Are you a total cretin ? Did you not bother to read this thread ? If you had you would have found out that Melanie Kroll very likely had her e-mail account used by someone else.

    Now all you have done is provide those who criticise PZ with evidence that some of his ilk are retarded fuckwits.

  898. #904 eric
    July 14, 2008

    When he gets fired you should send him flowers.

  899. #905 JustA Reader
    July 14, 2008

    You said:
    “and a very few get very, very nasty — for some reason, several have launched into profane tirades against my mother — do Catholics have mommy issues or something?”
    ——————————————————
    Why are you labelling all Catholics on the basis of what a few dickheads – very few in your own words – and why do you even assume these people even are Catholics?

    That sort of thing simply shows up your own prejudices.

  900. #906 Iain Walker
    July 14, 2008

    Comment #897:

    My little ditty to Mkroll:

    Great. Another idiot who didn’t bother to stop and think.

    What part of PZ’s requests:

    “No! Don’t respond by spamming them back! These could very well be fake or phished email addresses (I think you can count on it for the first one).” (#12)

    and:

    “I really don’t like the idea of harassing either of these people. Let this stand as a record, nothing more — it’s just here in case there is an escalation.” (#261)

    did