Out, pesky engram!

I suffer from the mental illness severe melancholia - basically biological depression and these people make me sick.

From my own experience, without the psychiatric treatment I've received from bonafide medical proffesionals (which includes drug thearpies) I cannot control my emotions. This affects every part of my life, my work, my partner, my friends. Psychiatry is for me, quite literally a life saver.

However, blessed as I am with postgrad qualifications in science, I see through their bullshit. I do worry though about those who suffer from mental illness who may be taken in by this and not seek proper, medical treatment for their disorders. After all, no amount of their woo will change the fact that my brain does not produce enough amines to allow for satisfactory neurotransmission.

About two weeks ago I encountered a man on the streets of Sydney, Australia, handing out pamphlets for this group. Their global reach increases their ability to cause harm, and I hope people will join PalMD in pointing out what a sham they are.

GAH

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/teens.htm

The highest murduring group is 18-24, just like it has been for basically ever.

The 14-17 group jumpped into second for a while, but is now below the 25-34 group. (It's fun to point out that the turning point for this upward trend is about 1994, the same year that Sony Computer Entertainment released the Sony Playstation into the market. Also, in the year 2000, when rates reached LOWEST EVER RECORDED, in when the Sony PS2 came out.)

This information is not hard to find. I hate it when people jsut accept that children under 18 hold the highest murder rate.

I went to one of the CCHR events a couple of months ago, the guy there claimed that a large number of psychiatric disorders are in fact caused by various physical problems such as vitamin deficiency. I asked him for some references and he sent me these if anyones interested:

1) David E. Sternberg, M.D., 'Testing for Physical Illness in Psychiatric Patients,' Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, Vol. 47, No. 1, Jan. 1986, p. 5

2) Richard C. Hall, M.D., et al., 'Physical Illness Presenting as Psychiatric Disease,' Archives of General Psychiatry, Vol. 35, Nov. 1978, pp. 1315-1320

3) Ivan Fras, M.D., et al., 'Comparison of Psychiatric Symptoms in Carcinoma of the Pancreas with Those in Some Other Intra-abdominal Neoplasms,' American Journal of Psychiatry, Vol. 123, No. 12, June 1967, pp. 1553-1562

He also said that there were several researchers who were solving this problem who were being intimidated by other psychiatrists (but didn't send me any papers written by them), and that he knew loads of scientists who agreed with him but were afraid to speak out for fear of their jobs. I'm sure that will come as a massive shock for readers of science blogs.

Interesting set of very old references.

Of course, learning to distinguish psychiatric disease from physical illness is a huge part of both internal medicine and psychiatric training.

And acknowledging that there is a distinction to be made pretty much concedes the point.

CCHR and the groups that affiliate with them do nothing but promote the ugly prejudicial stereotypes against people with mental illnesses. They claim they want to help but nothing could be further from the truth. I know from personal experience how their hatred and propaganda can affect people. While searching for alternative methods to treat my depression I came across some of those articles. I was doing very well at the time but reading some of that stuff put the idea in my head that taking my anti-depressants was a sign of weakness and something I should be ashamed of so I quit taking them. Approximately 2 months later I was being transported via ambulance to the hospital for attempted suicide. Since then I take my medication in conjunction with regular visits to a therapist and I no longer have suicidal thoughts. I'm doing very well these days and enjoying life to the fullest. I can't help wondering how many people have been negatively affected by their predjudice in the same way I was, went off of their meds, and weren't fortunate enough to get help in time like I did. Why won't they just leave people alone?

Why won't they just leave people alone?

Because they are a cult, they want your money and your allegiance, they want to control you. Of course they pick on those who are at a weak point (those with active mental illness).

At least they aren't stupid.

PalMD - You may be interested in this little video in which the head of the cult David Miscavige uses some rather worrisome speach against psychiatry. If you have not seen this already, you need to. (And show this to others in the profession)

David Miscavige calls for "Global obliteration of psychiatry" using images of hand grenades and loaded militarist language. Enjoy! (I didn't)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfu7Sr50N7U

Twenty -odd years ago,the Scientologists used to ask young adults walking on 5th Ave.(NYC), if they wanted to take part in a Psychology experiment( the location was half-way between NYU and the Graduate Faculty of the New School,where actual experiments might be taking place.So, I'm sure they picked this location carefully). Now, when you take the subway from Times Square, they are set up at tables offering a free "Stress Test" to passers-by. I usually walk past saying:"It's Scientology", or "It's not real".It's the least I can do .

PalMD thank you for exposing the world's largest con there is. I am a former Scientologist who is just starting to realize the extent to which I was lied to. I was told constantly about how Psychiatry was evil and Scientology was going to save the world. Too bad Scientology, in its zeal, was in fact the evil one after it decided to destroy the lives of anyone it felt was against it through a campaign of stalking (private investigators as well as its own goons known as the OSA).

Scientology is the pseudoscience, it's worst than those parents who let their children die because they try praying, because they drag everyone down with them while the media stays silent

Damn, but Scientology pisses me off. As a sufferer of generalized anxiety disorder and major depressive disorder (and someone with a basic sense of humanity), I can relate to others with mental illnesses, and understand a bit of what they are going through. It pains me to think that some of them might be dissuaded from seeking the help they need. Furthermore, as someone who hopes to work in the mental health field, I am horrified at the spread of these twisted beliefs.

Drugs and therapy have greatly helped me. I wonder how I could go about presenting myself as a refutation of their claims?

Recently I started taking Ritalin (err...I mean "A street drug! A STREET DRUG!!!") and it's made a world of difference. I don't care for the withdrawal symptoms on the weekend, and will talk to my doctor about a dopamine-increasing non-stimulant, but overall it's been a miracle.

I've been struggling with ADD my whole life, and nobody ever noticed, because I'm also very intelligent, and can pick most things up quickly. If I ever had to study, I was done. For example, I took Electromagnetic Fields 3 times because I didn't understand the "nuts and bolts" of it enough right away, and couldn't study.

And these turds come out and say the psychiatry is BS. I think that maybe they need some Thorazine, because they're effing psychotic.

I think we need to raise awareness of the CCHR within the health care industry, particularly for those focused on mental health.

I'm not sure if anyone will read this.

I'm sorry but I feel Scientology is getting pretty demonized lately. All I hear is how terrible it is. I'm going to try to make one argument standing up for myself, and maybe where Scientology might be coming from, in relation to my on perception regarding Psychiatry.

I have suffered from extreme anxiety and panic since 2000. And if you suffer from this you know I truly have been suffering from it my whole life, it just came to form when my body couldn't deal with how I handled stress anymore. Okay so that's me. Anxiety problem #23794. I don't recognize it as "panic disorder" because to me such terminology sounds like a life sentence.

When anxiety took over I truly thought a pill could fix it in a matter of days, much like an antibiotic. The family doctor gave me some Lorazapam and Paxil and sent me home. I thought "awesome I'll have this fixed by next week." Well soon "reality" set it. I would not leave my house, and now I was completely relient on my pills. To venture out side was like walking on Saturn. Terrifying!! I began scowering the internet learning more about my condition. I also realized the pills where "just band-aids." Maybe even less then that because band-aids actually help a wound heal. I learned of ways to heal naturally and really began to understand that my behavior and diet were all fueling my anxiety. This was no Scientology it was pure learning for my self.

I quit my pills. Okay be careful not to demonize me when I say this because I've notice, even without all the Scientology talk, that someone quiting their medication is akin to being "holier than thou" in todays society. At least give my freedom to quit. Anyhow when I did quit I learned my life all over again. My previous ways ended and I had to change my diet, and change my ways all together. Today I function better than even before my panic. A few times a year, yes, I have been stressed, but not like it was in 2000. That's life, it's stressful sometimes, and if it is a constant stress there's probably something that needs to be changed. It's that true change, I think, that scares some people into medication.

So here's me standing up for Scientology:
Psychiatry Crime #1: Only medication can help you through life.

Psychiatry Crime #2 If you have ever withdrawn from tranquilizers and Paxil you have experienced the crime of medication.

Please don't quit your meds this is my story and only relates to my perception.
My girlfriend has a similiar anxiety problem as my self except has remain on meds for 14 years. Her life is a mess, and here behavior recently evicted us from our home, and her body and life is at a bottom. She is addicted to tranquilizers and alcohol because she believes she has no other way to help combat her anxiety. We now thank God she is trying to pick up the pieces of her life and start on the long road that is recovery. Please pray for her through tranq withdrawal.

So I'm sorry to the majority of you who hate Scientology, but I totally agree with them regarding the crimes of Psychiatry. I've seen it and felt it first hand. There are other crimes too such as: frontal lobotomies, electro shock treatment, drugging young kids whose behavior hasn't really developed, not to mention a majority of all of these crazy shootings are done by people on meds or withdrawing from meds. WITHDRAWAL IS INSANITY.

Psychiatry, I firmly believe, has not shown me a success using it's methods. And if someone told me that getting along day to day using there meds is a success than I must ask why can't you improve YOUR life without meds? I'm sure I'll get a colorful story about impossibilities and stuff. Believe me I've heard everything. Is your life impossible? If it is I'm sorry you feel that is the truth.

Living life can not be found in a pill, for me. I know many other that could benefit their lives by quitting. But the problem is they have to WANT to learn about their body and well being to truly recover. If a person doesn't really want to change their behavior by all means stay on meds. It is important for me to also state psychotherapy is AWESOME. Psychology lives next door to that asshole Psychiatry. Give him a knock.

Nathan: Thanks for posting an interesting story.

You certainly do have the right to disagree with psychiatric medications and deal with your problems in the way you feel is best for yourself. However, I find even your hesitant defense of Scientology disturbing. Please keep in mind that just because you and Scientology proponents might share the same opinion on these medications does not mean that you have them for the same reasons. You may hold these beliefs for health reasons or just on that basis that you believe medications do not work, but Scientology holds them because the psychologically and emotionally conflicted who feel dissatisfaction with their current treatment make for exceptionally easy converts. They don't do what they do to make people feel better or "free" them from any sort of paranoid sense of biochemical bondage; they preach anti-medication as a tactic for shifting psychological dependence from a chemical substance to a religio-social group.

Your post seems to imply that those of us who dislike Scientology feel that way because of their anti-psychiatry bent, but I have to say I think it's more about the fear and intimidation, the preying on the emotionally fragile, the money laundering, the dishonesty, the isolation, the abuse, the kidnapping, the murder.

I hope you realize that just because you happen to share a belief that is in line with Scientology doesn't necessarily make them any less of a dangerous cult that they are often made out to be. Where you are coming from with your beliefs is NOT where Scientology is coming from, even if you and it happen to arrive at the same destination.

Will: Thanks for your concern.

Being that hating Scientology and the Anonymous vs Scientology WW1 is the elephant in the room, I think we have all been forming our own opinions. And I'm sure we are all doing it with blissful ignorance such as reading Operation Clambake, Xenu TV, Scientology death Toll sites etc. I say blissful ignorance because it all seems very one dimensional as far as collecting information. I'm guilty myself of these methods of research.

Anyway you said "fear and intimidation, the preying on the emotionally fragile, the money laundering, the dishonesty, the isolation, the abuse, the kidnapping, the murder."

To me, this is every religion. Christian's have shot abortionists, destroyed families, raped kids, Christian authority also lies to congregations for political and financial reasons, they have been guilty of money laundering, preying on the emotionally fragile (have you been to a jail?), and need I say fear and intimidation. This is just Christianity. Also on the Scientology death toll site I read about many suicides. I don't have the data, but you can be sure many Christians have committed suicide.

The first argument I hear when people compare Scientologists to any other religion is a bullet response of "Other religions don't cost people so much money. If Scientology has the answers why isn't everything for free." There are Christian and Mormon folks I know who pay their faith 10% of their income. If they make $40,000 a year that comes to $4,000. 30 years of faith costs a man $120,000 (that's if they never got promoted.) That's a lot of money. To be a Christian do you need to pay this? No. I'm pretty sure you don't have to pay to be O.T.VIII or O.T. 1 to be a Scientologist.

When I first learned and watched the "fair game" approach of the Scientologist I was disturbed and shocked. Now that I've had time to think about it I kind of agree with it. Scientologists are NOT PACIFISTS. I think it's shocking because one would expect a critic to just be brushed off and ignored. That's what I was always taught to do. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I should get in a critics face. If I believe in something by all means I have the born right of being human to stand up for what I believe in. If someone came to me and said, 'what you think is stupid and I'm going to find out all the bad things you did in life so I can discredit your beliefs.' I think, now, I'll say 'okay friend fair game.' I would find your problems too and bring them to the table. Standing up for yourself if you're threatened is important. I'm speaking of the right to believe what you want. Certainly, Will, you believe what you believe. Would you like anyone to say 'you can't believe what you think.' I'd have to say I'm disagreeing with Anonymous and see them as being more controlling. Geez, here comes the hate mail. Thanks again Will for the response. Take care.

Mr Hayden -

I have ADHD, very severe ADHD. I have spent most of my life unmedicated for it. I spent much of it denying that I had a problem. I even managed to get caught up in significant substance abuse issues. Then I heard about some studies being done, a few years ago, looking into the neurological cause. The study found that an affect of ADHD, was a deficiency in the production of the neurotransmitter dopamine. When I first heard of the study and the hypothesis behind it, I started really paying attention to what was going on in my life and what my motivations for certain behaviors were.

I am looking forward with great anticipation, to getting medicated for it. I have not been, since I self medicated with ingested methamphetamine. I am going back to school at thirty-two, while raising a family and running a small business. I barely hang on as it is. I can function to a degree, but that is only possible with the support and business savvy of my partner. Were it not for her abilities to handle the nuts and bolts, we wouldn't be able to make it. I actually go out and do the remodeling and handyjobs, but she makes it all function and manages our family as well.

No, I am not weak or afraid to change my behavior. I have spent the last few years digging very deep into who I am and what motivates the decisions I make and actions I commit. I have gone totally clean. I have followed all sorts of wooish ideas and systems. I am quite happy accepting that getting beyond the intolerable side effects of my neurological condition, is going to require the help that medication can provide. In all probability, I will be able to stop taking them at some point. It is unlikely that i will be in a position that requires it for the rest of my life. After I get through higher education, it really shouldn't be an issue, as I intend to pursue a career track that will make use of the positive aspects of my ADHD and deal with the negatives. But medication is going to be an essential component in getting there.

So no, I have no patience for anti-psychiatry quacks like Scientologists, any more than I have patience for death cults like the Christian Scientists and some Christian sects who are anti-medicine quacks.

I also have no patience for arrogant assholes such as yourself, who assume that because therapy alone makes it work for you, that can do it for all of us without any meds. Your wrong and it's also people like you who can cause serious problems for people who really do need their meds. I know more than one person with bipolar disorder, who listened to people like you and felt that their meds are a weakness and they should stop taking them.

My six year old and I pass out blankets to them, as we do a lot of homeless people, taking ones that we find and washing them for the next handout. They needn't be homeless. At least one of them had a very functional, conventional life, until he bought into Scientology in particular. Then he lost his career and family, living in devastation enough that my upper poverty level self, helps him out.

So no, I don't have the least tolerance for Scientologists or arrogant jerks like you.

DuWayne thanks for your honest story.

I'm sorry you feel I'm an arrogant asshole. I never told anyone to quit their meds in anything I wrote, so if you feel I did I please ask you to read my comments again.

I should stress, I do think people who take meds have evaluated their lives and found that meds are the answer for them. But my fear, and what has inspired me to write a comment to this fricken article to begin with, is I don't believe it's the only answer in regards to repairing a life.

I must ask this though. And I find this rather curious , and disturbing.

1 How come it's completely normal and sane to advertise pills to be the solution to all ailments?
2. How come it's insane and arrogant to explain my story of natural recovery?

You see DuWayne I won't back down. I HAVE seen meds destroy lives. And I have earned the right to speak about alternatives. And I'm not dumb. People jumping off meds can destroy their lives too. I'm very passionate, as are you. We both have had pasts that have created our views. And you have earned the right to follow what you believe.

And, for people with substance abuse problems, let's not forget the Scientology fraud called Narconon.

Besides their quackery, they're also among the worst e-mail spammers at my work address.

Like Amelia in the first comment, I suffer from biological depression. I've been on Zoloft for two years now and I've really turned things around thanks to it and my therapists. It's for this reason that my loathing of Scientologists and other anti-psychaitric drug groups is so strong.

Those murdering bastards [and yes, people with psychiatric problems who don't get proper health can and do die] set up their "stress tests" at 69th Street Terminal in Philly, and when I work in the city over the summer I have to fight the urge to really get into it with them.

Fuck those bastards.

Nathan, I recommend you step away from the Kool Aid. Sure, your personal anecdote is important to you. Fine. But the fact that a murderous, evil, bat-shit fucking insane cult might have something to do with helping anyone is so undeniably in-fucking-sane that it almost doesn't deserve a response.

Psychiatry, modern psychiatry, is based on evidence. It actually has been shown to help. Scientology is based on the most wacked-out stupid shit, it's amazing that anyone who believes in it remembers to swallow their own spittle.

Nathan:

I guess I don't understand the comparison with Christianity. Was the point that one of the big religions can be shown to have done the things we demonize Scientology for now? Because I'm not going to argue that. (DIsclaimer: I am an atheist.) But just because religions have some comparable atrocities doesn't mean that they have to be held up to the same degree of scrutinization, or that they are equally harmful/helpful.

As for Scientology Vs. Anonymous, I don't necessarily agree with the tactics of Anonymous, mostly on the basis that I think they're very ineffective and allow the Church Of Scientology to play the victim card (more than they already do). Though to Scientology's discredit, their responses have been remarkably ham-fisted. Arguing that you don't use fear and intimidation to harass your critics while posting the personal information of members of the opposition online would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

And on the implication that we only get one side of the story and go from there: while I obviously don't speak for everyone, I've known more than my fair share of individuals who have been roped into the Church Of Scientology, and actually spent a semester of my undergraduate studies working with Scientology apostates. Firsthand accounts of the Church are leagues more damning than something like Operation Clambake could ever hope to be.

Mr Hayden -

I never told anyone to quit their meds in anything I wrote, so if you feel I did I please ask you to read my comments again.

No, you just tell them that they are weak for doing so and would be better off without them. Bullshit your not telling people to quit their meds.

But my fear, and what has inspired me to write a comment to this fricken article to begin with, is I don't believe it's the only answer in regards to repairing a life.

Nobody else does either. But meds are an essential ingredient to dealing with a host of chemical imbalances, including schizophrenia, severe bipolar, dementia and many other disorders. For some all it does is moderate the symptoms enough that they aren't a danger to themselves and others. For others it's the difference between capably functioning in society or whacking their head against a wall until it bleeds, because they can't handle the stimulation.

For still others, medication puts them on a rather more even keel so that they can deal with therapy, sorting through problems that are causing serious emotional or mental problems left to themselves. When they start actually trying to deal with the underlying issues, medication cna be the difference between successful therapy and a huge downward spiral.

I don't like doctors that just want to drop someone a pill and leave it at that. Unfortunately, this is becoming more and more common these days. That doesn't mean the psychiatric medicine is a crock. Mostly its an economic issue. Therapy is expensive and most health insurance doesn't cover it. So people take what they can get.

1 How come it's completely normal and sane to advertise pills to be the solution to all ailments?

Again, nobody does. Not in psychiatry, not in psychology, not even in internal medicine.

2. How come it's insane and arrogant to explain my story of natural recovery?

It's not. What's arrogant and insane is to then decide that because it worked for you, it should work for everyone. You probably don't have any chemical imbalances and therapy wasn't too difficult to deal with. That's great. But to then assume that it can work that way for everyone and that anyone who takes medication is weak, is insane and arrogant.

You see DuWayne I won't back down.

Thankfully, neither will people like me asshole.

This comment is for DuWayne and Will and maybe PalMD if I get to it.

DuWayne:

No, you just tell them that they are weak for doing so
Again, point me to where I wrote that anyone was weak in anything I wrote.

I don't like doctors that just want to drop someone a pill and leave it at that. Unfortunately, this is becoming more and more common these days. That doesn't mean the psychiatric medicine is a crock.
We agree. To you this may seem like a small issue that can be brushed off. To me this issue alone is exactly why I guess I feel Crimes of Psychiatry are being committed. This is a gigantic issue, and can lock many people into an alternative drug problem for years if not their entire lives. The crime is being prescribed drugs that are either wrong or not needed. Sufferers of such a dilemma can lose months and years of proper treatment and can be fucked. This is a crime to me. Please explain to me how these people can get their lives back.

DuWayne a very few folks research their conditions as thoroughly as yourself. I said thoroughly because I know people definitely look into their shit, but what is also very important is to question every element of a therapy. It appears to me that many people except the first therapy that comes along without much question.

Will this comment is for you.

I've known more than my fair share of individuals who have been roped into the Church Of Scientology, and actually spent a semester of my undergraduate studies working with Scientology apostates.
Please explain their stories. You're as guilty as the article this whole comment string is about. Should I agree and say 'oh Will met these guys some semester, so he's right these Scientologists are crazy." I want to decide for myself regarding the terribleness. Please post some juice.

I compare Scientologist to Christianity because I feel it's a good measuring stick for hate talk. That is what's happening here, so I want to be sure I should hate something greater than another thing. Hate is a large emotional investment for me, and since the media and articles like this are predominantly telling me to hate Scientology I need to know why it's so important. I think George Bush, Irag, health care and the economy cover all bases of hate for me. This Scientology argument is such a joke. We have more people up and arms about Scientology than about current policies fucking us in the ass. I bet most of these Anonymous dudes have never even protested the Iraq War. Anonymous vs Scientology is a protest created by watching Tom Cruise on Entertainment Tonight. It is pathetic and really reflects our entertainment culture.

Lastly PalMD:
Sorry dude. Your article also suffers from the same condition that you complain about. Blanket statements not based in fact.

The Church of Scientology is a bizarre cult that believes human suffering originates in "engrams" implanted on Earth by an evil galactic overlord named Xenu, so that pretty much eliminates any credibility this organization might have.
Please show me the book or text or speech from L. Ron Hubbard where he states this to be a primary belief if any belief at all. Better yet show me a true blue Scientologist explaining this as their belief. I haven't found it anywhere except sites critical of Scientology. Since this is your whole crux of why Scientology is crazy and not credible please show me that that is what the believe.

Last question for all 3 of you guys. I really need this information because I've heard it mentioned for years, but have never seen any evidence regarding it's truthful existence. I need the actual factual document, not some essay on the theory of it's existence. Please post any article proving natural born chemical imbalance. Because the first thing I'd argue would be rather than natural born chemical imbalance a person is
a. effected by environment,
b. deficient in some health issue,
c. stimulating their brain with a drug or alcohol (with anxiety this could mean even coffee)
d. learned behavior improperly (a parent taught them how to deal with stress wrong).
I could go on. Please prove natural chemical imbalance. If it exists Psychiatry wins and Psychology is out of a job.

Mr Hayden -

Again, point me to where I wrote that anyone was weak in anything I wrote.

And if someone told me that getting along day to day using there meds is a success than I must ask why can't you improve YOUR life without meds? I'm sure I'll get a colorful story about impossibilities and stuff. Believe me I've heard everything. Is your life impossible? If it is I'm sorry you feel that is the truth.

Living life can not be found in a pill, for me. I know many other that could benefit their lives by quitting. But the problem is they have to WANT to learn about their body and well being to truly recover. If a person doesn't really want to change their behavior by all means stay on meds.

Yeah they could quit if they really wanted to. So if they don't, they are just weak and dependent.

We agree. To you this may seem like a small issue that can be brushed off. To me this issue alone is exactly why I guess I feel Crimes of Psychiatry are being committed. This is a gigantic issue, and can lock many people into an alternative drug problem for years if not their entire lives. The crime is being prescribed drugs that are either wrong or not needed. Sufferers of such a dilemma can lose months and years of proper treatment and can be fucked. This is a crime to me. Please explain to me how these people can get their lives back.

This isn't a crime of psychiatry, as much as it is a crime of economics. While there are many doctors out there who do over prescribe, without any interest in actually dealing with the underlying issues that may be contributing, they are in a fairly distinct minority. The problem is, that even if they want a patient to get therapy, it is simply not feasible for most people. So folks take a pill to help with the symptoms, because that they can afford. Too often, again for financial reasons, most folks can't afford even minimal follow-up to ensure they are taking the right drug or if taking something else or quitting altogether might not be best.

I'm in that boat. To see a doctor, it comes out of my pocket. The same is true of filling prescriptions. On occasions when I have really needed help, everything comes out of the little enough I make. I would love to see a therapist, together and separate from my partner. I know that it would be a huge help. But there is simply no way to cover it. It's only because it's sliding scale that we can afford my son's therapy.

a. effected by environment,
b. deficient in some health issue,
c. stimulating their brain with a drug or alcohol (with anxiety this could mean even coffee)
d. learned behavior improperly (a parent taught them how to deal with stress wrong).
I could go on. Please prove natural chemical imbalance. If it exists Psychiatry wins and Psychology is out of a job.

Ok, I am not keen on trying to post a ton of links in comments on a blog. I will try to formulate a post at my own blog, but I probably won't do it all that soon, as I tend to be rather busy. But ultimately, your premise is seriously flawed and the answers to these questions are largely irrelevant.

First, you are making an idiotic assumption that even with a "natural" imbalance, psychotherapy can't be of any use. Nothing could be further from the truth. Even while they are medicated for it, people with bipolar disorder and many other disorders are also in therapy. And the therapy can and often times is, very helpful. Conventional therapy can help the patient and those treating the patient, to understand what triggers certain behaviors, how they are handling their lives and simply offer suggestions for handling their troubles, that might be obvious to you or I, but are not so much for someone with a serious mental illness. Indeed, for those with particularly severe and/or debilitating disorders, the therapist becomes even more important. As well, the therapist is also likely to be the front line observer of the effects of medication and changes to medication.

There is also a similar and equally foolish notion that "natural" causes and environmental causes are mutually exclusive. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is no reason whatever that, for example, ADHD doesn't have a strong genetic component that makes one very susceptible, while at the same time requiring "triggers" to actually affect a person. Indeed, there is plenty of research into that very question, with that very disorder, going on right now. The same is true of ASDs, bipolar and many other mental health issues.

But ultimately your questions attempt the skirt the issue. The fact is, my brain is the way it is and while the causes are important to investigate, knowing exactly what the causes are isn't going to change my brain. There is more than ample evidence that my brain doesn't produce enough dopamine. Evidence also shows that if I take ritalin or something similar, I can think more clearly and become less susceptible to distractions and major tangents (wherein I get hyper-focused on something and become unable to pay attention to anything else - thankfully rare).

And the fact is that a lot of people have disorders that we understand far better and can point to causation. A great many of them are hereditary. While it has not been categorically proven with ADHD, I think that the fact that my biological father, most of my paternal siblings and my own offspring have ADHD, is indicative that it is likely hereditary.

Ultimately, the question of causation is largely irrelevant to the treatment of actual chemical imbalances. While it is critical to the development of preventative measures, it doesn't do squat for the person who's brain functions in ways that make social functionality suffer.

Okay DuWayne this is my final post and I'll make it as brief as possible. We totally disagree with each so we can part our separate ways with our own methods of recovery.

Important to note nowhere in what you stated did I say anyone was weak. You perceived that, but that is not what I was saying.

The problem is, that even if they want a patient to get therapy, it is simply not feasible for most people
You can find very cheap therapy often free therapy from students earning hours. Check your local Universities. A friend of mine, Jason, started this way and continued with the same person after they had received their doctorate and opened their own practice.

There is also a similar and equally foolish notion that "natural" causes and environmental causes are mutually exclusive. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Really? So I guess the natural recovery of my self, my dad whom deals with anxiety, and my friend Jason, a sufferer of OCD, don't count. Even though in all three circumstances we found the above to be at the root of the problem.

And the fact is that a lot of people have disorders that we understand far better and can point to causation. A great many of them are hereditary. While it has not been categorically proven with ADHD, I think that the fact that my biological father, most of my paternal siblings and my own offspring have ADHD, is indicative that it is likely hereditary.
It can also be very learned and a result of environment. My dad has Panic Disorder (crap term) and I have it. But I learned how to deal with stress by watching my dad. He was the focal point of how my life should or shouldn't be, my environment. Plus I grew up on the same diet. My parents taught me the shittiest diet, and being young I thought it was completely fine. Both my dad and I first tried to treat our anxiety with pills (he long before me). Both he and I quit pills and rebuilt our lives and now neither of us suffer from panic. 3 for natural recovery, 0 for pill therapy.

Ultimately, the question of causation is largely irrelevant to the treatment of actual chemical imbalances.
To someone who has rebuilt their life from foundation up without the use of "chemical balancing" pills this statement is so very wrong. Causation IS what effects your brain.
Diet. Learned behavior. Environment. Decisions. Choices.

So, you're "leaving and never coming back"? I know how that usually goes...

no PalMD you still have some info to post. I think DuWayne and I are to a point where we can agree to disagree. We feel strongly regarding our positions and regardless of what we write I think we'll both stay firm with our views.

PalMD when I was first made aware of this page I thought it was an actual true science site. I wish I checked it out further. Had I known it was only a blog I probably wouldn't have commented to begin with. Blogs are like assholes, we all have one and they all stink.

You have a lot of great opinions, and I guess since you have an MD tacked on to yr webname your opinions must have more value. Granted you paid for your MD, I assume, so you deserve it. But there's a lot of shit bag doctors out there, with opinions, and maybe blogs. There are shit bag 4-star generals too. It's just a title, not really the measure of a man. I agree with your idea denialism is very dangerous, but judging by other posted blogs you deny any cure other than modern medicine. Yes, there are a shit load of crack pots out there, I happen to think Psychiatry is filled with crack pot ideas. Examples: electro shock therapy, tranquilizer therapy, shit you guys used to regularly prescribe amphetamines to housewives not to long ago.

Anyhow I'll stick around this blog. Please post info proving natural born chemical imbalance. Obviously some people are born with portions of their brain not working, people are also born without arms. I want an article stating for a fact how many of us are born with chemical imbalances, since many of us take pills to help these pesky imbalances we are told we have.

If you have a coherent theory on the diagnosis and treatment of mental illness that the rest of us have missed, please...feel free to post it.

Mr Hayden -

Important to note nowhere in what you stated did I say anyone was weak. You perceived that, but that is not what I was saying.

Then what the hell were you saying? You imply by your statements that anyone who uses medication is less of a person for it. Couching it in "kinder, gentler" terms doesn't change the clear implications of your words.

You can find very cheap therapy often free therapy from students earning hours. Check your local Universities. A friend of mine, Jason, started this way and continued with the same person after they had received their doctorate and opened their own practice.

Gee, thanks for assuming that I haven't exhaustively searched for what's available to me. There are limited resources available for our family and they are focused on my son.

The other problem is that it won't make a lick of difference as far as medication goes. I'm not taking it now, because I don't need it as badly and can't afford it. All that therapy would do, is provide some help in getting my life to work better for me and my family. To help me delve into the mistakes and successes of my own parents, so that I can try to avoid the same mistakes, without throwing out what worked. And finally to help me strike a balance between career and family. All of which would be and eventually will be a great help, but not something that is in dire need of immediate attention.

Really? So I guess the natural recovery of my self, my dad whom deals with anxiety, and my friend Jason, a sufferer of OCD, don't count. Even though in all three circumstances we found the above to be at the root of the problem.

I'm not saying that anyone doesn't count. Nor did I say that all mental illness is rooted in "natural" causes. What I did say, is that your quote, "natural" causes and environmental causes are not mutually exclusive. This does not imply that some disorders aren't entirely due to some genetic mutation or that some mental illness isn't purely environmental. All it says is that it needn't be one or the other.

t can also be very learned and a result of environment. My dad has Panic Disorder (crap term) and I have it. But I learned how to deal with stress by watching my dad. He was the focal point of how my life should or shouldn't be, my environment. Plus I grew up on the same diet. My parents taught me the shittiest diet, and being young I thought it was completely fine. Both my dad and I first tried to treat our anxiety with pills (he long before me). Both he and I quit pills and rebuilt our lives and now neither of us suffer from panic. 3 for natural recovery, 0 for pill therapy.

Which is a lovely story and I am so very glad that it all worked out so nicely for you and your family. It also has absolutely nothing, zero, zip to do with the general nature of mental illness.

My son is learning a lot from watching me deal with the problems that regularly arise from having ADHD. Too, I have learned a lot about dealing with ADHD, much of it through experience. I use it to it's fullest advantage. But I am not restricting myself to just those tools. Even while my partner and I have made tremendous sacrifices to keep our son off drugs at his young age, we are fully prepared to medicate him in the future. It will be his decision, as much as our own, but there is a lot of evidence to suggest that medicating him as a teen, will make it far less likely that he will have substance abuse problems as an adult.

Is medication ever going to be the endall? Hell no. We are going to use it as just one of many tools for ensuring that our son has a reasonable chance at a decent life and gets a decent education.

To someone who has rebuilt their life from foundation up without the use of "chemical balancing" pills this statement is so very wrong. Causation IS what effects your brain.
Diet. Learned behavior. Environment. Decisions. Choices.

ADHD has been a very large part of my life for thirty-two years. It had a huge impact on the life of my biological father and most of his children, none of whom I ever saw until I was eighteen. It impacts the life of the first child I produced, who was later adopted by his mother's husband. There is little question in my mind about my genetic propensity for ADHD.

I also tend to think there are a variety of environmental triggers that can make one symptomatic. There is plenty of research that would suggest that environment can play a strong role in whether and how much ADHD is going to affect a person. There are a variety of things that I can do to minimize the affects of my ADHD, many of which we have translated into tools for dealing with my oldest. But the fact remains that no matter what we do, there are still effects to be dealt with.

I am all about trying to make life work without meds. I have spent much of my life doing that and intend to pursue a career path that will allow me to do so again in the future. But sometimes to put ourselves in the optimum position for making that work, we have to use the tools available.

Look, I am very happy that going med free worked for you. Being on meds that one doesn't need isn't going to help anyone and obviously you didn't need them. That does not mean that everyone is like you.

Goodness, how chilly you've become since I quit calling you an asshole. The irony escapes me not.

Goodness, how chilly you've become since I quit calling you an asshole. The irony escapes me not.
DuWayne what does this have to do with anything.

Anyhow thanks for the post above this post, truly best of luck brother.

Hey PalMD
If you have a coherent theory on the diagnosis and treatment of mental illness that the rest of us have missed, please...feel free to post it.
I believe I'm asking you this question. No cheating with ping pong comments. I want some factual articles MD. Save the William F. Buckley style debate tactics for your blogs.

Um...this is my blog. I'm not sure what question you asked but let's remember, if you wish to challenge standard science and medicine, it's up to you to provide an alternative explanation.

Extraordinary claims and all...

I asked a man of Science and Medicine .

1. Please post any article proving natural born chemical imbalance. Because the first thing I'd argue would be rather than natural born chemical imbalance a person is
a. effected by environment,
b. deficient in some health issue,
c. stimulating their brain with a drug or alcohol (with anxiety this could mean even coffee)
d. learned behavior improperly (a parent taught them how to deal with stress wrong).
I could go on. Please prove natural chemical imbalance. If it exists Psychiatry wins and Psychology is out of a job.
Since pharmacological medication is the modern medicine cure all please prove it's sole argument for prescribing it to millions, which is the pesky chemical imbalances.

Lastly you said in your blog:
The Church of Scientology is a bizarre cult that believes human suffering originates in "engrams" implanted on Earth by an evil galactic overlord named Xenu, so that pretty much eliminates any credibility this organization might have.

I asked you to:
Please show me the book or text or speech from L. Ron Hubbard where he states this to be a primary belief if any belief at all. Better yet show me a true blue Scientologist explaining this as their belief. I haven't found it anywhere except sites critical of Scientology. Since this is your whole crux of why Scientology is crazy and not credible please show me that that is what they believe.

If you don't post anything I'm left to believe you are a phony that hides behind grand terms like "modern," "medicine", and "science." Look PalMD, I recommend a great book by Carl Sagan called "The Demon Haunted World." It's a fantastic book all about denialist culture. He has fantastic chapters like the Fine Art of Baloney Detection. I think you try to adhere to these ideas. When I apply Sagan's Baloney Detection to your argument you are just the same as a kook who believes in UFOs or ghosts. These same kooks will claim science and medicine in their arguments to validate their ideas. Unless you provide me facts I am to assume you're blogs are just the kooky opinions of someone who believes everything he hears. Seeing that once tranquilizer therapy, electro shock treatment and giving house wives amphetamines used to be "modern medicine" and "great science" I think psychiatry, and the pharmaceutical industry, has a long LONG history of baloney and harmfully kooky therapies. I will post a challenge (I think if you read through my comments I am posting a challenge already) as soon as you give me some real info to challenge. Not blogish talk.

Mr Hayden -

DuWayne what does this have to do with anything.

What it has to do with, is supporting the notion that you are nothing but a crank. Easy to sound and look good, when people are insulting you, not so much when all they do is make points you cannot answer.

Since pharmacological medication is the modern medicine cure all please prove it's sole argument for prescribing it to millions, which is the pesky chemical imbalances.

Ahh, but we've been over this Nathan. The problem with responding to this line, is that the premise behind it is flat out bullshit. There are a very few doctors out their that believe anything close to what you are claiming here. You are stuck in this either or mentality that has little reality behind it. While there are a very few docs out there that actually think that various psych meds are a cure all, the vast majority do not. Why? Because the evidence shows that pills are not going to be a cure all.

You are also trying to lump all of psychiatry/psychology into one single issue. Guess what moron, they're not. We're talking about hundreds, if not thousands of disorders that you blithely try to tie into one lump. You're never going to see the paper you are asking for, because the very notion of such a paper is absurd. Not all mental illness is the result of a chemical imbalance, no one here has made that claim. Nor are all chemical imbalance related disorders the same.

1. Please post any article proving natural born chemical imbalance.

Your first sentence is a conversation stopper because it's meaningless. You're going to have to both explain what that means and how it is relevant.

Duwayne
you said
Ahh, but we've been over this Nathan. The problem with responding to this line, is that the premise behind it is flat out bullshit. There are a very few doctors out their that believe anything close to what you are claiming here. You are stuck in this either or mentality that has little reality behind it

here's also what you said a while back
The study found that an affect of ADHD, was a deficiency in the production of the neurotransmitter dopamine.

I said
stimulating with brain with a drug or alcohol can fuck up your chemical balance

You said
I self medicated with ingested methamphetamine.

This is really going to piss you off DuWayne but when have you been absolutely clean? I mean not a drop any drugs or alcohol even coffee and cigs. If you were clean how well nourished and hydrated were you? If you keep introducing things into your system your not giving your body a chance to adjust to anything. Of course your brain will have imbalances and almost assuredly neurosis.

you said
You are also trying to lump all of psychiatry/psychology into one single issue. Guess what moron, they're not. We're talking about hundreds, if not thousands of disorders that you blithely try to tie into one lump.
How come the thousands of disorders have one basic answer to their relief? Pharmaceuticals. And you are shitting me if you believe otherwise. Show me a case where this is not step one for handling neurosis. Obviously there are different therapies. But if people are actually exploring their therapy why is the pharm business booming? A booming Pharm business should be an alarm that something is not working. Something is fuked. I'm sorry if my existence, and my pissed offness irks you DuWayne, but I'm fed up. Look moron believe your way. I think it's much more simple than you want it to be. Problem #1 Our culture loves to intoxicate itself with anything is can. And the longer we stay intoxicated the more neurosis you will find, and the less actual therapy occurs. Sorry if you disagree with that.

I wrote
I must ask why can't you improve YOUR life without meds? I'm sure I'll get a colorful story about impossibilities and stuff. Believe me I've heard everything.

PalMD can't answer with any facts? I know how that usually goes...

Please read any of my previous comments for relevance and meaning.

Mr Hayden -

This is really going to piss you off DuWayne but when have you been absolutely clean? I mean not a drop any drugs or alcohol even coffee and cigs. If you were clean how well nourished and hydrated were you? If you keep introducing things into your system your not giving your body a chance to adjust to anything. Of course your brain will have imbalances and almost assuredly neurosis.

I was entirely clean until I was thirteen. Since then, I have gone entirely clean on five separate occasions and yes, I was adequately hydrated and eating very healthy. I also eliminated television and computers from the equation during a couple of those periods.

When I self-medicated with meth, I spent six weeks beforehand, clearing everything else out of my system. This was one of the periods that I decided to eliminate the computers and tee vee from my "diet" as well, just in case. When I started taking the meth, I found as reliable a source as possible - i.e. I knew the gent producing it and had him help me set up a consistent dosage, starting small and increasing slowly, until I was taking a dose similar in strength to a common dosage of adderall.

You seem to want to assume that I'm just an uninformed consumer of psych meds. I'm not. I have a very keen understanding of how to gauge the effectiveness of a medication on my own body. I have never just stacked one thing onto another, unless it was with the intention of just getting fucked up.

How come the thousands of disorders have one basic answer to their relief? Pharmaceuticals.

Because they are far more economically feasible for most people. Been the rounds on this already. And while it is nice that some folks can in fact get help from students and the like, the fact is this is not available to everyone. Nor is it always the case that the student is going to have the ability to help a person deal. My late uncle went through more than fifty therapists before he found the right one. When I was in therapy as a child, it took over a dozen tries, before we found one that could work for me.

And you are shitting me if you believe otherwise. Show me a case where this is not step one for handling neurosis.

Well, that would be me for one. When I was five, I was diagnosed with ADD. When I was seven, I was also diagnosed with mild bipolar disorder - though it was noted then, that the symptoms may be the result of lack of sleep, due to congenital insomnia.

In any case, medication wasn't even brought up by the doctors who saw me, including two psychiatrists. It wasn't until I was almost eight, that my parents started asking about ritalin.

Then there is my partner, who has major depression/anxiety issues. Not only was medication not the first choice of doctors, they refused to medicate her for it, until she had undergone fairly extensive evaluations with two different psychiatrists, aside from her own.

There is also the young man I mentored for two years, who has also been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. He is the son of a single mom who is also bipolar. He was diagnosed with bipolar almost a year before I got involved with his life. Because of fears of potential substance abuse (young black boy, single mom puts him in the "at risk" category) his doctors were extremely reluctant to put him meds for it. They still haven't, instead relying on other therapies to compensate. As he is getting ready to go to college this fall, he has been spending a lot of time considering the pros and cons of getting medicated for it this summer. Much of our communication since he and his mom moved back to Seattle, has been about this very question.

Obviously there are different therapies. But if people are actually exploring their therapy why is the pharm business booming?

For the umpteenth time, because it's fucking affordable. People who cannot afford other therapies, can get the pills covered by insurance. Besides which, meds can also make other therapies more effective, depending on the circs.

I'm sorry if my existence, and my pissed offness irks you DuWayne, but I'm fed up.

And I'm fed up too. I'm tired of assholes such as yourself perpetuating ridiculous stigmas about people who take psych meds. People like you are the reason that my education got totally fucked. When I was younger, I believed evidence deficient, arrogant morons like you, when they said I just needed to buckle down. I believed them when they said I was just being lazy, that I could do it if I just tried. I believed them when they said that I just wasn't trying to live up to my potential.

I don't like people like you, because not only have people like you fucked with my own life, now I have a child for you to fuck with as well. Show me the fucking evidence woomeister, for it's you, not me, trying to challenge a status quo. Put up or shut up, fuck you very much.

I think it's much more simple than you want it to be. Problem #1 Our culture loves to intoxicate itself with anything is can. And the longer we stay intoxicated the more neurosis you will find, and the less actual therapy occurs. Sorry if you disagree with that.

Again, show me the evidence.

Mr Hayen -

Upon further reflection;

Seeing that once tranquilizer therapy, electro shock treatment and giving house wives amphetamines used to be "modern medicine" and "great science" I think psychiatry, and the pharmaceutical industry, has a long LONG history of baloney and harmfully kooky therapies.

Can I assume this means you also eschew all of modern medicine as well? After all, medicine has a very long and inglorious history of all sorts of quackery that was not only ineffective, but also caused all sorts of harm. I mean bleeding patients used to be quite common. As was the notion of just putting people with similar symptoms into asylums together, without a care for whether they might end up far sicker than they were to begin with. With such a history behind it and by your logic, the only reasonable conclusion is that modern medicine simply cannot be trusted.

DuWayne, Nathan uses the typical denialist tactics of repeating the same meaningless questions and phrases over and over, while refusing to address actual data.

It is also the hallmark of a cultist---repeated phrases, inability to step outside of your box to see what the rest of the world does...

I'm tired of assholes such as yourself perpetuating ridiculous stigmas about people who take psych meds. I not perpetuating any stigmas I'm explaining my case, and how I was prescribed meds without any other suggested therapies. My girlfriends case; prescribed an endless supply of tranqs. Others that I have witnessed first hand. Friends with drug problems prescribed lithium, institutionalized. Other friends being diagnosed bipolar when really they have a meth or cocaine problem. Prescribed a lifetime of hell, these friends, my girlfriend and myself at one time believed we had no other alternative. My mom has recently been prescribed this bullshit recently for panic. She was not giving any alternatives.

Self medicating is perhaps the worst form of therapy. My girlfriend's cousin just died from this form of therapy. He was taking xanax and alcohol to help his anxiety. Had a heart attack. 31 years old.

If you can pay for meth you can pay for adderall. You can also find a very cheap therapy through schools, and guess what? there's more than one student attending. Please reply and tell me how this is impossible.

Again
I must ask why can't you improve YOUR life without meds? I'm sure I'll get a colorful story about impossibilities and stuff. Believe me I've heard everything.

I think it's much more simple than you want it to be. Problem #1 Our culture loves to intoxicate itself with anything is can. And the longer we stay intoxicated the more neurosis you will find, and the less actual therapy occurs. Sorry if you disagree with that.

Again, show me the evidence.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/alcohol.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3299945.stm
http://www.greenfacts.org/en/alcohol/
quote from MSNBC article on 'Antidepressants may not help patients'
"The studied drugs included Prozac, Effexor, Paxil and Serzone, which are all so-called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or SSRIs. About 118 million antidepressant prescriptions were issued in 2005 in the U.S., according to the National Center for Health Statistics."

It would all be so funny if a person didn't have to withdrawal from this bullshit.

Oy.

Once again, lots of words, no content.

There is a difference between a scientific discussion/disagreement and a denialist rant.

1) Do SSRI anti-depressants significantly improve depression as measured by a codified scale? If so, which patients? This can be, has been, and is being investigated.

2)"How come you can't get better without meds? When were you last clean? Can you show me one instance of proved chemical imbalance?" This is meaningless babble.

Mr (anon)Hayden -

I not perpetuating any stigmas I'm explaining my case, and how I was prescribed meds without any other suggested therapies.

Bullshit. So thick your swimming in it. You are perpetuating the bullshit notion that all of mental illness can be dealt with without medication. You are perpetuating the notion that if the afflicted really wanted to, they could do it all without the drugs. You are so full of shit, I'm kind of surprised you can stand the stink of it. Do not insult my intelligence by claiming that you are doing anything less.

Self medicating is perhaps the worst form of therapy. My girlfriend's cousin just died from this form of therapy. He was taking xanax and alcohol to help his anxiety. Had a heart attack. 31 years old.

It is certainly not advisable to self-medicate. However, this is exactly what a lot of people do, when they do not have access to health care. It is unfortunate that your gf's cousin was drinking and taking xanax, this is extremely common and extremely easy to die from.

If you can pay for meth you can pay for adderall.

Actually, I couldn't. I rebuilt the chemists lab, to make it far more efficient for him, he provided a service to me in turn. I wanted to see if it might be worth trying to go through all the expense and trouble of seeing a few doctors and going through yet another battery of tests, so that I could get on Adderall. In the end, the expense of doing so was just too much.

You can also find a very cheap therapy through schools,...

You fail to grasp my financial situation, the whole reason that I am working my way back into school. I have two children and their mother to support. We already spend a significant percentage of our income on therapy for our son, provided on a sliding scale. I literally cannot afford it for my partner, who would get it before I would, much less myself.

...and guess what? there's more than one student attending. Please reply and tell me how this is impossible.

Nor do I have the time to spend a semester trying to find a therapist that will actually work for me. I don't have the time to invest in developing a functional relationship with said therapist, if there's even time, then have to start all over when they're done with that aspect of their schooling in a year, possibly two.

I work, a lot. I am taking a whole lot of CLEP exams, so that I can avoid taking unnecessary/redundant classes, which means a lot of studying, often on subjects I know little to nothing about. I have a six year old who craves attention from the moment I walk in the door, until the moment he's asleep. I have a five month old, who also loves to get on poppa and walk poppa around the apartment. The only non-working, non-family time I get, is when I jam twice a week after the kids are asleep.

What I find ironic, is your focus on my lack of therapy. Mostly because I am going to study psychology and will be getting into therapy before too long, as a requirement of the program. The thing is, it's a canard. Being in therapy isn't likely to make any significant difference with the ADHD, excepting possibly finding strategies that I have yet to come across.

I must ask why can't you improve YOUR life without meds?

Because I have spent the majority of my life without medication. And I have damn well tried. And because when I tried something very much like a common ADHD drug, it had a very positive effect on my ability to focus. I was also entirely tangent free, while I was ingesting meth. If you are unfamiliar with tangents, in conjunction with severe ADHD, it is when I get hyper-focused on something. At it's worse, focused to the extent that it is virtually impossible to distract me.

I think it's much more simple than you want it to be. Problem #1 Our culture loves to intoxicate itself with anything is can. And the longer we stay intoxicated the more neurosis you will find, and the less actual therapy occurs. Sorry if you disagree with that.

Ok, now give me evidence to back up this claim. Because what you cited, doesn't. You'll get no argument from me, that drugs aren't for everybody. I'm not making that claim,. Indeed, I earlier expressed my dismay at the rates a lot of drugs are prescribed. You on the other hand, are making the outrageous claim that nobody needs them. This in spite of ample evidence to the contrary.

I disagree with you, because there are mountains of evidence that say you are wrong. Evidence that was gathered using science, not unsupported beliefs.

Duwayne;
Actually, I couldn't. I rebuilt the chemists lab, to make it far more efficient for him, he provided a service to me in turn. I wanted to see if it might be worth trying to go through all the expense and trouble of seeing a few doctors and going through yet another battery of tests, so that I could get on Adderall. In the end, the expense of doing so was just too much. I take back what I said. If you can pay for a meth habit AND build a lab you can pay for Adderall and get therapy combined. The self denial is sickening.

Since PalMD is not man enough to produce results. I'll try to sum up my standpoint. My statements are an opinion on how I see a problem. They are suggestions.

First Duwayne
You are perpetuating the notion that if the afflicted really wanted to, they could do it all without the drugs.
Neurosis that I feel could use pharm help would be any case that has become severe. Severe Bi Polar, Severe Schizophrenia, Severe Panic, Severe Depression, Severe OCD.

Any neurosis being inflamed to the point of severe is a serious matter and if a person can not function, than by all means TRY Pharmaceuticals if you need to function.

I don't know much about ADHD to comment about it. I do think the above conditions fall into patterns of learned neurosis. Having a few friends with Severe ADHD I only know their stories. They choose a drug free life. One said about ritalin "It was weird I felt bored. I never felt bored before." They all said they embraced their condition. All three are very creative and great conversationalists. Very well thought out arguments. One friend did say he would like to take Adderall every tax season, but he loved the creative advantages of his ADHD. So I'm only writing about the above conditions, not ADHD.

Now I believe only through what I learned through my own therapy, my Pops, and my good friend Jason is although these provide relief they really don't do shit to repair your condition. They buy you time. For some this time helps them relax and figure out a proper approach to helping themselves. For others this time is not spent trying to help themselve and the pill just becomes part of the daily diet, and if it's effects crap out it's on to the next pill.

Now out of the above I know for a fact (this will be my only fact) Severe Panic Disorder and Severe Depression can be cured through a natural therapy. Jason found Severe OCD can be cured through natural therapy.

Saying cured with a neurosis may sound strange. I fully understand my triggers and have power over them rather than the reverse. I believe anyone can be inflamed into any one of the above neurosis if the wrong conditions happen. I understand the triggers in my self that cause my depression and anxiety and how to handle them so they don't become a severe or even a common issue.

I do think natural recovery is a long path and sadly people won't allow themselves the time to pursue it. I also think it may be a far cheaper road. I did pills for relief for a 6 month period and they were pretty expensive, but I didn't compare the prices. Therapy did cost money. Other than therapy everything else was free.

I will also admit it can be, at times, be depressing to start down the road of natural recovery. In a way you have to put your former self to rest. All your habits you may have loved, all the traits you may have liked about yourself, you may have to change if they are inflaming anything. After time you pick up a new beat and can approach the traits you may have enjoyed, but with a smarter approach.

Now the PROBLEMS
GlaxoSmithKline, is quoted in a national newspaper as saying more than 90% of drugs only work in 30-50% of people. PalMD what do you tell the other 50-70% of people on drugs? This is a gigantic financial issue not to mention mental health issue. 50-70% are being ripped off. Half or more than half of GlaxoSmithKlines profits are made off of people that don't need it. It's snake oil to there brains.
As far as mental health is concerned, Duwayne likes to blow a big tune that not everybody has the same condition. Well apparently Glaxo think they do. This is Modern Medicine PalMD it's Science. These are HUGE numbers. " About 118 million antidepressant prescriptions were issued in 2005"

1) Do SSRI anti-depressants significantly improve depression as measured by a codified scale? No. Not for 50-70% of it's users.
If so, which patients? According to this article it only helps the severely depressed.

I asked
How come you can't get better without meds?
You may, if you're the lucky 30-50% be provided a relief. But there is a big difference between relief and getting better. Getting better is a cheap term, but it is how I was confronted with pills. "Take this Paxil in a week or two you should feel better."
Feeling better is akin to feeling normal. Normality for me is rationality. Being under the grip of anxiety is not rational, nor is OCD, or the rest of the above. To get better was to get back to rationality. Paxil and Lorazapam was far from rational. I didn't have panic but I didn't feel rational either.

When were you last clean?
I asked DuWayne this because of his meth past. Meth is a piece of shit and you can disagree with me PalMD.

Can you show me one instance of proved chemical imbalance?"
I said 'natural born'. As advertised many of the syndromes are cause by pesky chemical imbalances and people need these pills to create a perfect harmony in their brains. It's baloney and an advertising trick on top of that. Knowing how my anxiety was created I'll tell you flat out anxiety is a learned condition. I absorbed my condition environmentally starting at an early age. I developed a bizarre passive method of handling stress that did not work. It broke my life in 2000. I repaired it and moved on. As advertised these conditions sound hopeless without the use of this snake oil.

The crimes as I see it:
1. More than half the folks on antidepressants don't need them.
2. These people that don't need em have to suffer withdrawal if they want to stop wasting their money. I'd guess they'd probably rather stay on them than get off and suffer withdrawal.
3. Where's the accountability?
4. Prescribing anyone longer than a 2 week prescription of tranquilizers should be a crime? They are highly addictive and harder to kick than meth, coke, or heroin.

Remember tranquilizers where the miracle drug not to long ago before the zoloft dawn. They were readily prescribed in the same fashion as these new chemical balancing miracle drugs. Ah Modern Medicine and Science has done no wrong. These should be rid from this earth.

5. Psychiatry, I suspect, has steamrolled through countless lives through it's torrid history. I'd say Psychiatry has a means to an end philosophy. To all those that had their brains fried with electro-shock 'therapy'. To all those fuked by some experimental drug. To those of you that create the side effect lists of the modern miracle drugs. To the housewives who were ruined by amphetamine use, to those who have had to suffer the effects of a person afflicted with an addiction to pharms. This crime is for you.

Lastly I'll say there are major problems in the psychiatric and pharmaceutical industries. It has effected me. You can try to say it has not DuWayne. You can even say I'm the problem and the reason you are the way that you are. There needs to be accountability for over-prescribing. Why do these drugs have to have such insane withdrawal symptoms? Why are they so hard to get off of? I ask this to the phantom entity that is the Pharmaceutical Industry.

Proper use of pharms can work if a person takes an active role in their recovery. I think and know (anxiety, depression, and OCD) recovery can be done with out them. People are not weak for taking pills, they should just really really know the consequences. Know that ever getting off them you will probably experience rough withdrawal. Know that as long as you are on them no real recovery of your condition is happening. It's just being relieved.

As I see it, recovery is getting to where YOU want to be. Maybe people are satisfied with merely being on a pill that relieves symptoms. For me recovery was relieving my symptoms forever, and not having the fear of "if I quit taking this pill I'll be right back in hell." I wanted to destroy my hell forever. And as a matter of fact I did.

"Nathan" is one of the more enduring culties I've seen messing with articles critical of $cientology. Forget getting a straight answer out of him.
$cientology claims to be a religion one moment and a science the next without succeeding at either. Fortunately, the availability of information on the Internet is negating this scam's ability to con people.
Enjoyed the article - I look forward to your take on $cientology's other drug "initiative", Narconon.
To the genuine sufferers of mental illness reading and commenting here, I wish you well.

Nathan's prolixity is matched only by his wackaloonery.

Scientology is clearly a cult. As you said, it changes it's mind as to whether or not it's a religion based on expediency.

I have never heard a scientologist give an alternative to evidence based medicine.

And when called out on the xenu thing, they always claim that the proof is a forgery.

A dangerous cult it is.

Oh, and an earlier commenter posted a wikileaks link to the Hubbard Papers, but I can't find the damned thing...it's in here somewhere.

Mr Hayden -

I don't like you and am pretty well finished dealing with your bullshit. A couple of things first.

I take back what I said. If you can pay for a meth habit AND build a lab you can pay for Adderall and get therapy combined. The self denial is sickening.

To put it in terms your reading comprehension can handle; I bartered with the chemist. He gave me what I wanted, in turn, with the materials he provided, I rebuilt his lab.

I don't know much about ADHD to comment about it. I do think the above conditions fall into patterns of learned neurosis. Having a few friends with Severe ADHD I only know their stories. They choose a drug free life. One said about ritalin "It was weird I felt bored. I never felt bored before." They all said they embraced their condition. All three are very creative and great conversationalists. Very well thought out arguments. One friend did say he would like to take Adderall every tax season, but he loved the creative advantages of his ADHD. So I'm only writing about the above conditions, not ADHD.

This is what you will find with many people with ADHD, including myself. The only reason that I am interested in medicating my son for it, when he gets older, is because studies have shown that people with ADHD who are medicated for it as teens, have significantly lower rates of substance abuse.

I asked DuWayne this because of his meth past. Meth is a piece of shit and you can disagree with me PalMD.

Have you actually read what I wrote, or are you just gleaning it for bullshit that fits your perception of what I must be like? I spent two fucking months taking exact doses of meth. I was thrilled to use the chemist I did for several reasons, not the least being he would work a trade with me. He also made a lot of other drugs, including MDMA, so it wasn't hard for him to put the meth into a pill form, with legit pharma fillers. He also used the plant ephedra as the source for ephidrine, rather than psuedaphed and used pure ether, instead of starter fluid.

When I talk about substance abuse issues, I am talking about the same issue that a lot of folks with ADHD have. It isn't about a specific substance, the substance most people with ADHD abuse (if they abuse them at all) is the one that's in front of them.

Please do me a favor. If you are going to respond to me, respond to what I am actually saying and pay attention. I write exactly what I mean and I mean exactly what I write. Nothing more, nothing less.

DuWayne, you really have nothing to defend.

DuWayne, you really have nothing to defend.

Oy, but I do have this compulsive tendency to responding to people like Hayden. I'd like to say that this is all due to my fear that other people reading might actually buy his bullshit, but at least part of it is just the asshole in me, who can't let go.

edwardwoodward
Somehow I'm a Scientologist for siding with their anti psychiatry slant. Sweet. It didn't know it was that easy.

Edward I loved The Equalizer. When are you going to make more episodes? Or at least put them on DVD.

Please do me a favor. If you are going to respond to me, respond to what I am actually saying and pay attention. I write exactly what I mean and I mean exactly what I write. Nothing more, nothing less.
I ask the same and do the same DuWayne. You have been putting words in my mouth since this began. I never called people weak or told them to quit taking pills. You formed my words into meaning that. My statement is simply a person can actually have a life without pills. It is possible. What a concept. My argument has been there is a huge problem of over prescription, and Psychiatry and the Pharm industry have proven themselves to not be very reliable.
If you guys don't give a shit, and hate the idea, oh well. I think commenting like this is important. One side wishes the other side wasn't there, I'm guilty of this wish myself. I like the debate, I'm learning from at least you Duwayne about your side. But since PalMD said I'm wackalooney don't worry you guys are on top of this debate.

Since this (the Xenu story) is your whole crux of why Scientology is crazy and not credible please show me that that is what they believe.

You can read an extract from the Xenu story in Hubbard's handwriting here...
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/OTIII/

A recording of Hubbard telling the Xenu story can be downloaded

When I first learned and watched the "fair game" approach of the Scientologist I was disturbed and shocked. Now that I've had time to think about it I kind of agree with it. Scientologists are NOT PACIFISTS. I think it's shocking because one would expect a critic to just be brushed off and ignored. That's what I was always taught to do. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I should get in a critics face. If I believe in something by all means I have the born right of being human to stand up for what I believe in.

Fair game policy: Critics can be tricked, sued, lied to or destroyed.
You can stand by your belief all you want even if you're clearly wrong. What you cannot do is resort to harassment in response to criticism. That is a cornerstone of western democracy.

I have no idea why it turned out that colour. I guess I just blue myself!

Triple post extravaganza!

The link for the audio recording is below.

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Scientology_cult_Hubbard_Class_VIII_Assists_X…

How is it I always jump into these things months or years after they've gone dead? Ah, well. Once again I come across a post where people just can't seem to stop the name calling and viciousness. I don't see Nathan advocating Scientology (not real big on it myself). I see Nathan talking about what worked for him, and generalizing it a bit too much. I see DuWayne talking about what worked for him and generalizing it a bit too much. I think some people need meds and don't have them (creative solution you came up with D), some are on them and shouldn't be. Think this sounds like "middle of the road can't we all be friends bullshit"? Well, the world is rarely so black and white. It's when folks in blogs (including the blog-master) think that one size fits all and they have the only shoe store in town that this sort of nonsensical tirade happens. Cults that cause harm and take all your money doing it? Yeah, fuck 'em. Nathan? I didn't read anywhere that he's trying to take your money. At very worst, he's wrong. Not a moron, not an asshole, not the antichrist. DuWayne, from how you describe your life, you are to be admired. You're working your ass off and putting your family first. Lighten up on Nathan and others like him. He's trying to help.
End of rant.