Gaza is dying

There are many ways to kill innocent people. Suicide bombings against Israeli and Iraqi citizens we hear about. The starvation and strangulation of a whole population is one we don't. From The Independent:

Gaza is dying. The Israeli siege of the Palestinian enclave is so tight that its people are on the edge of starvation. Here on the shores of the Mediterranean a great tragedy is taking place that is being ignored because the world's attention has been diverted by wars in Lebanon and Iraq.

A whole society is being destroyed. There are 1.5 million Palestinians imprisoned in the most heavily populated area in the world. Israel has stopped all trade. It has even forbidden fishermen to go far from the shore so they wade into the surf to try vainly to catch fish with hand-thrown nets.

Many people are being killed by Israeli incursions that occur every day by land and air. A total of 262 people have been killed and 1,200 wounded, of whom 60 had arms or legs amputated, since 25 June, says Dr Juma al-Saqa, the director of the al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City which is fast running out of medicine. Of these, 64 were children and 26 women. This bloody conflict in Gaza has so far received only a fraction of the attention given by the international media to the war in Lebanon.


Sometimes the Israeli army gives a warning before a house is destroyed. The sound that Palestinians most dread is an unknown voice on their cell phone saying they have half an hour to leave their home before it is hit by bombs or missiles. There is no appeal.

But it is not the Israeli incursions alone that are destroying Gaza and its people. In the understated prose of a World Bank report published last month, the West Bank and Gaza face "a year of unprecedented economic recession. Real incomes may contract by at least a third in 2006 and poverty to affect close to two thirds of the population." Poverty in this case means a per capita income of under $2 (£1.06) a day.

There are signs of desperation everywhere. Crime is increasing. People do anything to feed their families. Israeli troops entered the Gaza industrial zone to search for tunnels and kicked out the Palestinian police. When the Israelis withdrew they were replaced not by the police but by looters. On one day this week there were three donkey carts removing twisted scrap metal from the remains of factories that once employed thousands.

"It is the worst year for us since 1948 [when Palestinian refugees first poured into Gaza]," says Dr Maged Abu-Ramadan, a former ophthalmologist who is mayor of Gaza City. "Gaza is a jail. Neither people nor goods are allowed to leave it. People are already starving. They try to live on bread and falafel and a few tomatoes and cucumbers they grow themselves."

The few ways that Gazans had of making money have disappeared. Dr Abu-Ramadan says the Israelis "have destroyed 70 per cent of our orange groves in order to create security zones." Carnations and strawberries, two of Gaza's main exports, were thrown away or left to rot. An Israeli air strike destroyed the electric power station so 55 per cent of power was lost. Electricity supply is now becoming almost as intermittent as in Baghdad.

The Israeli assault over the past two months struck a society already hit by the withdrawal of EU subsidies after the election of Hamas as the Palestinian government in March. Israel is withholding taxes owed on goods entering Gaza. Under US pressure, Arab banks abroad will not transfer funds to the government.

Two thirds of people are unemployed and the remaining third who mostly work for the state are not being paid. Gaza is now by far the poorest region on the Mediterranean. Per capita annual income is $700, compared with $20,000 in Israel. Conditions are much worse than in Lebanon where Hizbollah liberally compensates war victims for loss of their houses. If Gaza did not have enough troubles this week there were protest strikes and marches by unpaid soldiers, police and security men. (The Independent)

Gaza has been under attack for 74 days. One Israeli soldier has been killed and 26 wounded. Two hundred sixty Palestinians have died, among them 64 children and 26 women. One in five is a child. 1200 Palestinians have been injured, with some 60 amputations. One third of the injured are children. Israeli planes have destroyed the power grid, destroyed or damaged hundreds of houses and workshops and caused immense economic damage to a desperately poor population. The Independent quotes the Israeli human rights group, B'Tselem as counting 76 Palestinians, including 19 children killed in August alone by Israeli forces. They say that evidence shows more than half were not participating in hostilities.

Violence, starvation, hopelessness, lack of food, water, shelter and sanitation. There are many ways to kill innocent people.


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When terrorists use children as shields while they fire against soldiers, expect some children as collateral damage, but you should blame the terrorists for using the children as shields. You don't but you should.
The actions of the US-Isreali fascist military alliance will produce a backlash. The reference above is to the denial of 9-11 workers who suffered lung damage from receiving medical insurance. Americans will feel the backlash as world resistance against these war crimes increases. The Jewish Lobby is the US Congress is alive and well.
What is the difference between using a gas chamber to kill Jews in Germany during WW2, and using starvation to kill people in Gaza? A government that uses its military to starve civilians has committed a war crime under the Geneva Conventions, and the leaders of that government can be tried in a International Court in the Hague.
What the German Army did in the Warsaw Ghettos in World War 2, is exactly what the Isreali Army is doing in Gaza.
Many Jews in those ghettos in Poland starved to death. Others were beaten, shot, or put on trains and sent to the slave labor camps, or to gas chambers. During the Nuremberg
Trials, the German leaders who instituted these war crimes were sentenced to prison.
Even if conventional bombs are used to destroy the nuclear reactors in Iran, the explosions will spread nuclear radiation over large areas. The explosions will of course kill may civilians from the blasts, but many more will die over a 2 or 3 week period from radiation. This is the most dangerous situation since the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962.
Janes Intelligence Weekly published a report this week stating the diplomacy with Iran has failed, and now the alternatives are strictly military. Janes Intelligence Review is not a radical organization. They give unbiased evaluations of military developments in the world.
The US government uses torture of prisoners, denies US citizens their constitutional rights using the Patriot Act; has secret military tribunals for civilians; has secret CIA prisons. Bush mentions the possible need to use the military to quarantine the cities during a bird flu pandemic.
And Americans refuse to realize the torture, and secret prisons could be turned on them. Martial law will end democracy in the US. The idiots that voted for Bush deserve their fate, but what about the rest of us?
Hitler killed all opposition leaders within the Nazi Party, killed homosexuals, the disabled, Jews, Communist
Party members, and anyone who demonstrated against the Nazi Party.
Halliburton is constructing concentration camps, called detention centers, where those who oppose Bush will be imprisoned. Those who use violence to oppose martial law will be shot. The contract is for $325 million dollars.
You still have time to emigrate from the US. Don't wait. Many Jews in Germany waited too long during the period 1933 to 1940, to leave the country. If you wait, you may be killed or imprisioned by your own government, if you are not killed in a terrorist attack. are right on all counts, but what you don't see is that when you take it over the top like this, with an all encompassing rant, you sabotage yourself. Stick with one issue at a time.

Regarding the situation in Gaza: we were having this same exact discussion several weeks ago on this blog, when revere brought up the humanitarian crisis in Palestine, and the unfairness of cutting off the economy of a country in retaliation for the fact that they had democratically elected a government that we and Israel didn't like. Hey, I don't like Bush, and there is a lot of evidence that he wasn't really democratically elected. But that doesn't mean I get to stop paying taxes, does it? I wish. Some attention from the world's press was being brought to bear upon this impending disaster in gaza, and humanitarian aid as well as protests from human rights groups and world citizens had begun in earnest. Then Hezbollah had to jump in with their own little fracas, and all attention shifted to the punitive war on Lebanon. Little attention was given to what was happening to Palestine during this: the attacks, raids, etc were given only passing mention in the world's press. But as I recall, there was quite a bit of action by Israel against Gaza during the Lebanon war. Now we're back to looking at Gaza and lo and behold it's much worse. Question: besides talk, what do we intend to do about it?

By mary in hawaii (not verified) on 10 Sep 2006 #permalink

When terrorists use children as shields while they fire against soldiers, expect some children as collateral damage, but you should blame the terrorists for using the children as shields. You don't but you should.

First of all, Israel is occupying Gaza. No nation has any "right" to defend an occupied territory, rendering this argument moot.

Second of all, I have a hard time believing you would make this argument if the logic were reversed. If we (meaning Americans, forgive my assumption) were ever under attack by a foreign power, and children died in fights between guerilla fighters and their conventional forces, I highly, HIGHLY doubt that you would simply accept it as "collateral damage" (whatever the fuck that means). You'd call it what it really is: murder.

This is just yet another amazing example of people rationalizing for states what we would consider utterly heinous and immoral actions if committed by individuals. Here's a thought experiment: A person who gets mugged pulls an MP5 and razes a crowded sidewalk looking for the person who perpetrated the crime. Are the "casualties" in this case simply "collateral damage". Is this victim of attack legitimately applying his right to self-defense? Think about it.

By Black Cap (not verified) on 10 Sep 2006 #permalink

At you will find an article regarding Bush's future attempt to amend to US War Crimes Act of 1996.
Below is the first paragraph:

"The US War Crimes Act of 1996 makes it a felony to commit grave violations of the Geneva Conventions. The Washington Post recently reported that the Bush administration is quietly circulating draft legislation to eliminate crucial parts of the War Crimes Act. Observers on The Hill say the Administration plans to slip it through Congress this fall while there still is a guaranteed Republican majority--perhaps as part of the military appropriations bill, the proposals for Guantánamo tribunals or a new catch-all "anti-terrorism" package. Why are they doing it, and how can they be stopped?"
Bush does not want to be tried as a war criminal, and he is busy changing US laws to guarantee he will not.
Sorry about the rants, but killing innocent people upsets me.

william: Get real. He's got nothing to worry about, law or no law. You can't be a war criminal if you're not on the losing side. Consider Cheny, Kissinger, etc. War criminals are only from powerless nations, not superpowers.

William, do you ever read Jeff Rense or similar sites? Maybe What Really

These sites do exactly what you tend to do: offer up facts, and then get carried away in speculation, almost to the point of paranoia.

I've found reasonable information on these sites before. But by and large, they are full of garbage, and it becomes cumbersome to sift through. What Really Happened frequently has good links, but the guy's commentary on each story is often highly speculative and sometimes clearly delusional. The humorous thing is that he is absolutley certain that he is right. Rense also can occasionally be informative--I know Niman's commentary used to show up there--but you really have to sift through that stuff. It's like panning for gold in a stream where you're not likely to find any.

I'm not saying that concern over all these situations you mention is not warranted. You generally offer up facts and links to true and bothersome stories, but you then proceed to draw extreme and premature conclusions. The world is inordinately complex and it is not wise to have such tunnel vision. Don't let the emotions of fear control your reasoning abilities.

edit: William, I didn't mean to compare you to Rivero or Rense, except in the way you can be focused on speculation. You are still many times more realistic than those guys.

I enjoy reading your posts, but you appear to be quite certain of glood and doom, and these things are not certain.

william: Please tell me where you found the bit about Halliburton and the detention centers....this is something I would really like to read and I sure don't know where to look.

Mary in Hawaii: I also ask the same question. What can be done, and who is going to get it done?

You are correct, he cannot be tried as a war criminal, because he is the president of a superpower that plans to bomb Iran with tactical nuclear weapons, and perhaps cause a nuclear winter, if Russia responds.
Of course you may say it will never happen. And you may be correct. I just hope you are, if that is what you believe. But if you are wrong, we may all be dead soon.

Thank you for your comments. I will seriously try to analyze what you said, and see if I can control some of the unrealistic assumptions.

Please go to…
to read about the contract to the KRB subsidiary of Halliburton, which was awarded a $385 million contract to build detention centers. The stated purpose for the building of the detention centers is to control the influx of illegal immigrants. The immigrants will be housed in these centers. Of course, FEMA reps say the centers could also be used in the case of a national emergency. I think a bird flu pandemic might be considered a national emergency.
Bush has already mentioned in a press conference the possible use of the military during a bird flu pandemic.

Bush may not have to worry about war crimes, but Israeli officials may be worried. Who knows for sure?

Israel Officials Fear Wave Of War Crimes Law Suits
Wednesday, 6 September 2006, 11:18 am
Article: Scoop Link
Officials Said Fearing Wave Of War Crimes Suits Over Lebanon

Last update - 18:41 04/09/2006
By Haaretz Service


The Foreign Ministry fears a wave of lawsuits accusing Israeli military and governmental officials of war crimes, Army Radio said Monday, adding that a report prepared by the ministry's chief legal advisor warns officials against inflammatory statements in connection with the recent war, saying that their words could later be used against them in foreign lawsuits or indictments for alleging them to be war criminals.

In the past, a number of IDF generals have deferred visits to Europe, for fear of arrest over allegations of war crimes in connection with the Intifada.

Cabinet Minister Yitzhak Herzog, currently traveling in Finland, said Monday that international conventions granted government officials immunity from prosecution, but that the problem was "much more complicated" with respect to IDF officers, especially retired officers.

"There is no question that there is an effort by organizations of various kinds to harm, in particular, [IDF] officers and commanders. This certainly doesn't touch the governmental echelon, but this takes nothing away from the seriousness of the problem."



I am concerned over many of the same things as you. Since worst-case scenarios are indeed a possibility, it's good for us to be reminded of them. It's good to view evidence that might support these bad scenarios.

But worst-case scenarios are only one possible outcome, and often are the least likely outcome.

Not everything you say is worst-case speculation. But in some of your posts, I think there is a lack of framing, where two outcomes with disparate probabilities are treated as equally likely.

Certainly keep investigating this stuff, and certainly keep posting about it. Since a lot of these issues fly under the radar, it's easy for many of us to become oblivious to some very real and scary things in the world. Making people aware of them is important, but revealing them through hyperbole can lead people to disregard legitimate threats as conspiracy theory. Just remember that gloom and doom aren't the only possibilities.

william: Thank you. I hardly know what to say. Alarming.

Under the UN Charter folks the Israelis are allowed to defend themselves. GAZA is a sideline now to Lebanon. Both are hurtin for certain. In Lebanon the government there allowed the Hezbollah to build up and really take control, like Al Capone. It also isnt unlike 20 something years ago when intel indicated something "seizmic" was happening on the Lebanon side of the border. It was. They were building tank revetments underground and sneaking them in at night T-72's to be exact. The Israelis pre-emptively attacked and were not censured, they did this time too. They wont get squat and dont expect it either.

As for the "War Crimes", So what? Well they can be sued but its applying law to situation that is not a law situation. If the Israelis let them get food, water, etc. then in under a year or two the explosions will start again. The missile batteries will fire and the Israelis wil again, defend themselves. Its just time to rearm and get ready for the next round is all. Relax. Eventually one of them WILL likely use a nuke of somekind and render this Mideast problem a thing of the past.

William with all due respect to your opinion if you think they plan to detain Americans in these camp then you need to stop by and see someone. Its dellusional at best. A government takeover of the system would be met with more firepower than the entire military has short of nukes. Besides the people that would attack the government are much better shots. Emperor Bush? Even I one of his supporters would ensure that there was no "third term" unless it was approved by Congress.

Dropping nukes on Iraq is very unlikely due to proximity to the Russians/Chinese. One nuke wouldnt do it anyways, it would take several at least 35 megaton bunker buster types to get at their underground stuff. Yield dialable ends on our stuff at 50 megs and its iffy at that level due to available tritium displacement. But then there are those Ruskies. They would take an extremely dim view of this action and would retaliate IMHO. I know I would. .

Forget the Patriot Act thing too William. Its getting a bit old. If you are talking about citizens that the FBI has credible evidence to detain, question, indict then yep they are doing it. The Miami professor was clearly doing something with his buddies in the Mideast. But he was indicted, tried and released. So the system still works.

You cite Germany as well you should. Their courts are what failed them. Had they not gotten control of the courts the Nazi party would never have come to power. But they did and we got WWII. I dont accept many of your arguments but non-combatants are dying in Gaza and Lebanon and its a shame. It will be up to the world to determine if its a war crime when there is no declared war or people are not wearing a uniform. It hasnt been in the past, it likely isnt in the future because to do so would render the Patriot Act moot even here.


By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 10 Sep 2006 #permalink

Yikes and double yikes. I quote M. Randolph K herein:
"Emperor Bush? Even I one of his supporters would ensure that there was no "third term" unless it was approved by Congress."

I reread all William's posts above. Twice. Didn't find the "emperor Bush" reference MRK cites, nor the suggestion that bush would seek a third term, approved by congress or otherwise. So where did this come from????

I have actually worried that he (Bush) might try to extend his term of office under some vague war powers act wand he might wave around, possibly after cooking up another pearl harbor to boost his ratings and green light his plans to take over the world. But I actually never heard it seriously suggested before. Now M.R.K states that he, as a bush supporter, might be cool with a third term for the bushmeister if congress approved it? Where is this coming from?

As regards the rest...William, don't "forget the Patriot Act thing," it's way over the top. Facist states always convince their citizens to give up their liberties in return for "safety"...(and historically it has frequently turned out that the attacks by the "enemy" which instill that fear for their safety in the citizenry were actually committed by their own government just for that purpose.)It's part of the game plan. And the Patriot Acts are exactly that. Second, about the possibility of detention camps used as quarantine centers during a pandemic: Contrary to what MRK says about your concern over that possibility being delusional, I take quite the opposite point of view. If we get struck with a pandemic in which tens of millions of people are sick and dying, then having centers at which to isolate them while they are given proper medical care is humane and intelligent planning, not cause for alarm. IMHO.

By mary in hawaii (not verified) on 10 Sep 2006 #permalink

These comments are so one-sided. Israel is fighting for its survival. Hamas's main and primordial objective is the destruction of the State of Israel. In Lebanon, the so-called resistance fighters of Hezbollah have prepared tens of thousands of rockets with ball bearings and explosives to unleash on the civilian population of Israel, as indeed they have done in July. How convenient to omit these facts from your high brow discussions. The Independent has taken such a rabid anti Israeli stand that they have been honoured by Al Qaeda with a positive mention for their lead reporter Fisk. How proud is he now? Anyway, sorry for the interruption. Please proceed with your anti Israeli monologues.

Starving innocent people in Gaza will produce a backlash in the Arab countries against Isreal, and will turn world opinion against Isreal. It is counterproductive.
If Isreal has atomic bombs; why should not Iran have a right to possess atomic bombs to defend itself against a surprise nuclear attack from Isreal?
Why does Russia support Iran and Syria? Why doesn't Russia support Isreal? It is because Isreal, in alliance with the US, is a fascist state, that helps the US kill for oil. Do you think cluster bombs should be used Lebanon?

It is Israel, not Isreal.

You are correct, this information is alarming. Americans want a police state for the same reason Germans in 1933 wanted a police state, to protect them, from terrorism for the US and Communism for Germany in 1933.
But a police state can turn against its own citizens.
Americans really do no care how many people in the Middle East have to die, just as most German citizens did not care about how many people in Poland were being killed during the invasion of Poland.
As long as Americans have gasoline, when they go to fill up the tank, they do not care about killing for oil in the middle east.
If tactical nuclear weapons kill millions in Iran, US citizens do not care, as long as they have gasoline. Watching MTV is more important than worrying about mass slaughter of innocent civilians.
And 90% of Americans would say the idea of martial law in the US is stupid and will never happen. Perhaps they are correct. But the Patriot Act worries me. The destruction of our constitutional rights worries me. And what happens if there is a bird flu pandemic? Would Bush take advantage of the situation to declare martial law? I do not know. But it is a concern.

William, you are bringing a number of geopolitical aspects into the discussion and you might be surprised but I agree with most of them. On the other hand : whatever Israel does, a big part of world opinion will be against it. They find themselves in the unenviable situation that most of their neighbours and the neighbours of their neighbours, and the overwhelming majority in all the Muslim countries would like to see them obliterated, wiped off the map. As if this was not enough, the left of the political spectrum in the Western world, plus the fringe antisemites, are also against them. What should they do ? Withdraw to the pre-1967 borders ? to the 1947 borders ? Does anyone here really believe that Israel would then be able to live in peace ? I am very pessimistic about the future for the whole region. Because yes, there are nuclear weapons present and more are being produced. The hatred, based on religion, is irrational and seems to be leading to catastrophe. I am a secular person and do not live in the Middle East.

M in H. The centers William asserts that are being built are for detention not quarantine of US citizens. There are dozens of them already in existence already such as the Krome Center outside of Miami. They use it for boat people right now from Cuba and Haiti. Level 3 facilities that could be used for quarantine, detention, or what have you.

As for Congress authorizing a 3rd term it would be the law as it was during FDR when it was removed. FDR was for all intents and purposes an elected Emperor.

William, the military will certainly be used during a pandemic that disables the system. A declaration of a national state of emergency if more than 5% are infected/die is anticipated. If the system collapses in a state then there will be martial law likely declared by a Governor. But ONLY after a Governor signs the order can US troops be placed on State soil. The President cannot mobilize any US troops to operate in any capacity without that declaration by a Governor. And like Blanco in Katrina, they will show up 3 days after that order is signed. They'll blame the President at the time for the slow response but it is the law. It will mean that all civil order has broken down which isnt likely and the Governors can rescind it with the same letter. I am with Edmund its not all doom and gloom and if they activated the full US military capability in such an event they too would be dying, not showing up for work, families in crisis. Bad but no one is going to herd law abiding US citizens into camps. The troops would revolt.

Remind yourself of one thing William the Patriot Act is in response to an event that happened on our soil, not Geneval Switzerland. The French people are now beginning to see what happens when you allow illegal and legal immigration to give a highly motivated anti-government group to take hold within your borders by birth. They vote, they have rights and they will try to take yours if they can. With terror cells in every country it seems now, the world is getting the big picture that the Muslims regardless of what most of them preach are getting taken over by the radical elements.

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 11 Sep 2006 #permalink

Randy: Congress cannot approve a third term. The Constitution forbids it. To allow one, there would have to be another Amendment which requires Congress AND three quarters of the states to ratify.

"highly motivated {*deleted anti-government*} group to take hold within your borders by birth. They vote, they have rights and they will try to take yours if they can."

Sounds a lot like Utah where the prevailing religion rallies the votes to restrict the rest of the citizens' rights to coincide with their own religious ideas.
Or the cult in Oregon that tried to take over the town by moving in thousands of people to vote their way.
Or the christian cult that is moving into one of the southern states, SC I think, and trying to make over a small town into their own image of the world.
It isn't just the Muslims that are being taken over by a radical fringe... just look at our own government.

By G in INdiana (not verified) on 11 Sep 2006 #permalink

I am an American citizen. I live in Medellin, Colombia. Here in Colombia, I am ashamed to admit I am an American citizen.
The US government is invading the middle east to take the oil. To do this our military kills Arabs. US citizens are indifferent to the killing.
I deeply respect Israel and the Israeli people. But if Israel continues to help the US kill Arabs for oil, the whole region will explode; the US will be forced to withdraw from the entire middle east, just as it did in Vietnam; and Israel will have to nuke Arab states to survive. I seriously doubt they would go to that extreme. The other alternative is the Arabs will win, and Israel will no longer exist.
I choose to live in Colombia because I do not support a US government that kills for oil.
The idea that Arab states are a threat to the US is bullshit. The US could vaporize all the Arab states with one nuclear attack. The war on terrorism is a con game to keep the fascist US government in power. The Patriot Act was passed by the Congress without being read by anyone in the Congress. And now our Bill of Rights is dead.

G in Indiana,
"It isn't just the Muslims that ae being taken over by a radical fringe...just look at our own government."
This is one of the most profound and insightful statements I have read in a long time.
Bush cannot be re-elected. But he can declare martial law is there is another terrorist attack or bird flu pandemic.
Or he could use voter fraud a third time, to get his brother Jeb elected.
If you read the Patriot Act, you will probably be surprised as to just how extreme the situation has become.

M.Randolph Kruger,
Thank you for your comments to my posts. I do learn a lot from reading what you say. And I try to keep open to your ideas.
You have made so many good points, I will need time to think about your statements, before I respond.
These are very complex issues, and there are no black and white answers.
But in general I think your ideas represent a more centrist political view, and my political views are to the left. It is good we can dialogue here and learn from each other.
Have a good day.

There are almost no blogs out of Gaza.

This one is from a health professional, she posts from time to time in good English, some parts are translated into French.

From Gaza with love:

Roosevelt served four terms, 1933 - 1945. (?)

Ana: After which they amended the constitution to put a two term limit.

Revere its the 12th and 22nd. The 22nd didnt exist until 1951 and got the ratification that you spoke of. It was implied that a third was okay until then and never tested. Lots of Presidents though (big surprise) want it or have wanted it either repealed or modified. Clinton wanted it modified so he could run again. Reagan so he could run for a third. I personally oppose it because of the courts. We get to get rid of the Congress every 2, 4 and 6 years. Those Presidents appoint those justices. Would anyone not want to get Justice Kennedy out of there? That property rights thing was the straw for me. I havent seen anything out of the guy worth a damn and yes, I think he leans too far to the right on many things and is basically a retard when he does go left of center.

Thanks for the comment William. I am not totally centrist but its with a tinge to the right. Thats the problem now its way too far to the right and being run by a rabble of religious zealots as far as I am concerned. That prevents the President from really getting out there and leading. Its management by committee. On the opposit pole though it was the same with Clinton but to me it was far more sinister. A President that starts a war in Kosovo to "Wag the Dog" or a President who starts a war to prevent terror. Take your pick. You have two nostrils so you can breath right or left.

It wouldnt hurt my feelings to see Karl and Rumsfeld go. But I wouldnt want B'Gosh Begalla back or especially Madelein lets nuke them all Albright.

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 11 Sep 2006 #permalink

Until they stop firing rockets and hiding behind civillians, my support for Israel is not gonna die.

Seriously, what do you think was going to happen? Israel pulled out of Gaza only to be struck with more rocket attacks.

Until they rise up and condemn the terrorists that they cling to, I have little sympathy for them.


Most here would probably "enjoy" this Sept 10, 06 piece, The age of horrorism by Martin Amis.

He concludes his analysis with this observation about the role of religion in these matters:

We allow that, in the case of religion, or the belief in supernatural beings, the past weighs in, not at 2,000 years, but at approximately five million. Even so, the time has come for a measure of impatience in our dealings with those who would take an innocent personal pronoun, which was just minding its own business, and exalt it with a capital letter. Opposition to religion already occupies the high ground, intellectually and morally. People of independent mind should now start to claim the spiritual high ground, too. We should be with Joseph Conrad:

'The world of the living contains enough marvels and mysteries as it is - marvels and mysteries acting upon our emotions and intelligence in ways so inexplicable that it would almost justify the conception of life as an enchanted state. No, I am too firm in my consciousness of the marvellous to be ever fascinated by the mere supernatural, which (take it any way you like) is but a manufactured article, the fabrication of minds insensitive to the intimate delicacies of our relation to the dead and to the living, in their countless multitudes; a desecration of our tenderest memories; an outrage on our dignity.

'Whatever my native modesty may be it will never condescend to seek help for my imagination within those vain imaginings common to all ages and that in themselves are enough to fill all lovers of mankind with unutterable sadness.'

The view from the "spiritual high ground" is likely to be equally confusing (whatever your ego mediated perspective) but seems like it might be worth a look. Let me know if you find the an easy way up that hill. Contemplative practices offer a difficult route; entheogenic substances will part the veil but sometimes shatter the view. The atheist sez, "Why bother?" That's a good question that probably reflects a lack of aptitude or simple resignation to the hopelessness of a species that can't adapt fast enough.

By tympanachus (not verified) on 11 Sep 2006 #permalink

Zach: Gee, you sound just like the other side. I'd say you deserve each other but too many innocent people are dying because of this kind of stupdity. Israel rockets Gaza and the Palestinians talk like Zach. They have no sympathy for Israelis. So sorry.

Tympanachus...thanks. Beautiful stuff. I wish everyone could truly "grok in fullness" what that is like, to experience and appreciate the wonder, mystery and beauty that is life. Maybe we'd stop killing it.

By mary in hawaii (not verified) on 11 Sep 2006 #permalink

I dont think that the radical Muslims are pausing to read Tymp, Revere, or me. The US embassy in Damascus apparently just got hit by someone trying to storm the facility...But they arent trying to kill us. They had those AK's and grenades for negotiations. From what I see the Marines did all the talking.

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 12 Sep 2006 #permalink

Death: it's either now or later.