George W.: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy

I thought of this instead...

Coturnix: Thanks. Didn't know that song. Very powerful.

I think this is the most powerful statement I've heard on war, Steve Goodman's "The Ballad of Penny Evans".

http://ivorytowerz.blogspot.com/2006/12/ballad-of-penny-evans.html

Scroll down in the link to play the YouTube video.

God help us all. This president is insane.

Well now lets see, the Dems were the ones and that means Kennedy, Rangel and Billary that started popping off before the election that we didnt send enough troops in..... You know I generally like to hear what people have to say BEFORE I draw a conclusion. I have it on very good authority that we will be down by 1/2 by end of 07 and almost out by 08 with the remainder possibly as a beach head type of airbase arrangement. Keeps the Iranians honest.

Vietnam? .....Wasnt that a Democrat war? Seems to me I think that a guy named Lyndon was in charge there. Ah history, how it gets muddled so.

Yes, history does get muddled... Vietnam is shared by both Democrats and Republicans. Sure, the big escalation came under Johnson, but the major commitment of advisors came under Eisenhower. Actually, there were advisors in Vietnam from the U.S. immediately after World War II. There were advisors killed in 1945 and 1959... so take your pick on who is responsible.

In Iraq... we know who pushed for the war and massaged the intelligence and we know who didn't ask enough hard questions.

Randy: I think you might check the facts. I believe both Kennedy and Rangel opposed sending any troops. They may have pointed out that the guy who did send the troops did it incompetently, which is a different point and a fair one. Hillary will never have my support because she did approve of sending them.

Vietnam was a Democrat war, as you put it. I opposed it then in the strongest ossible terms. I took a personal and public stand at some personal cost. I refused to vote for Hubert Humphrey in 1968 because he didn't oppose the war, and I thus helped elect Richard Nixon, to my dismay, but I was moved by principle and that I don't regret. That war and this war are not partisan issues for me. At the moment the Republicans and especially their titular leader, George W. Bush are the Lyndon Johnson's of 2007. I despised Johnson for it, although you can at least say he had an outstanding record on civil rights and the country is better for it. You can't say anything good about this clown. The country will be worse in every way on his account.

Anyone here remember Dixiecrats?

Randy -

There is a significant body of historical opinion saying that Vietnam - for all of its problems and slaughter - did achieve a goal of stopping the spread of communism in SE asia. Debatable, true, and at a huge human cost, but the objective was acheived.

Iraq could have been a great success with twice as many troops and a competent post-invasion administration. Sending a few extra troops now is very unlikely to achieve anything. The ultimate objective - a stable, democratic Iraq and less risk of terrorism - seems extremely unlikely to be achieved.

Out by '08? Possible, and the 'peace with honour' may last through jan '09..

Andrew: Not debatable. Laughable, IMO. Vietnam did tremendous damage to the US, although probably not as much damage as the War in Iraq. Both starkly revealed the limits of American military power. And as for the spread of fundamentalism, the Iraq debacle has done more to encourage and spread it than anything I can imagine. Whatever your beliefs (and I am curious as to the significant historical opinion you refer to), there is no parallel in Iraq.

Greg: Dixiecrats were the foundation of Democratic power in the south and allowed them to be the dominant party for those many decades. Republican ascendancy came by assuming the Dixiecrat mantle and with it the shame. The Democratic Party is better for losing them and the Republican Party predictably worse. Neither party is what it was, to the credit of the Democrats and the shame of the Republicans.

This surge plan, along with the promotion of Admiral Fallon, is about more than Iraq. Iran is next. The reason - the last of the high ERoEI conventional oil. One has to understand that regardless of how much oil one thinks we have left in the ground, the extraction rate has most likely peaked. He who has the oil has the power. Regardless of who ends up with the last of the oil, the scenario will move on - as we run out of high ERoEI fuels we will burn more and more Coal which will increasingly be harder to get and of lower quality. Warming will not abate but will be accelerated. Resource wars will become more numerous. Our human addiction to oil and the goodies it has given us will kill us. We Americans will be drawn into these resource wars by way of the Terrorist in our Midst meme but also by our belief that the american way of life is non-negotiable and our belief that life is not worth living without all our power driven vehicles and appliances etc. And so modern industrial civilization will have a shorter lifespan than if we could have tamed our addiction.

Even Pat Buchanan knows Iran is next
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53681

Chris Floyd explains the oil connection
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article16115.htm

Anyone who thinks that the Vietnam war was in any way justified for the purposes it was supposed to accomplish needs to watch The Fog of War - McNamara looks back of the past. At one point in his later life he went to Vietnam and talked to people who were on the other side back then. He discovers that he and the other planners NEVER understood the motives of the North Vietnamese and their absolute hatred of the Chinese. Left alone they would have never become a client state of China. Its a sad movie to watch - he understands some of the guilt he bears but cannot fully embrace all of his guilt. Its also informative concerning the firebombing of Japan in WWII that caused as many deaths as Hiroshima - he quotes General LaMay who says that if they had lost the war they would have been tried as was criminals.

K: The problem is not just that we are running out of oil, but we are running out of soldiers. Hence I have a hard time seeing that Iran is next, unless you are talking aerial bombardment, in which case the surge isn't relevant. But that could start a regional conflict where we would need more soldiers and with no draft that doesn't seem possible. Which is why I strenuously oppose the draft. It makes war with Iran, Syria, etc., possible.

Revere -

In the late 1950s to early 1960s, in addition to the insurgency in South vietnam, there was the threat of Communist takeover throughout SE asia - there had already been the shock of losing China, followed by the Korean war, and there were developing insurgencies from Indonesia to Thailand. There appeared to be the risk of the whole area going communist; this is why Vietnam was seen as so important.

Of course, you may think in hindsight that this was not going to happen, and that chosing a country where the insurgency was as much nationalistic as communist was a mistake, but that it how it was seen.

And by 1975, although indochina was 'lost', the rest of the area was no longer under threat. To what extent that this was the result of the stand in vietnam is highly debatable, but not laughable. To try and treat the Vietnam war in isolation is a mistake.

This contrasts strongly with the Iraq war - especially if it was meant to be linked to a campaign against islamic extremism. There was/is absolutely no strategic argument for invading Iraq; it was clearly done because the US leadership wanted a war for the sake of it. Even the oil argument dosen't seem worth it.

I am not sure how much light is derived from re-fighting the Vietnam war since the lessons learned appear to be a function of the analysts political preconceptions. The Iraq case for me (a good conservative servant of the empire) is that I have yet to see an objective for the Iraq portion of the so-called long war. What does Iraq look like when we have achieved victory there. What does the world look like at the end of the long war. (forgive the lack of question marks, my keyboard is dying)The Roosevelt administration laid out a vision of vicotry in the Second World War - the unconditional surrender of the axis powers. Until the President lays out a defintion of victory we are in the perverbial soup. If I don't know how the world looks with a successful conclusion to the long war then I cannot, almost by defintion, have any plan to get there.

Andrew: "...but that it how it was seen." I would prefer to say, "...but that is how it was portrayed." The US leadership then, as now, had to lie their way into the war (Gulf of Tonkin, among other lies). Without the lies it wouldn't have happened. As now. It didn't take great acumen to realize Vietnam was a war of nationalism. It was widely said at the time and I remember it well. The facts were not hidden then any more than they were hidden now. Half the country, most of the world and a quarter of the congress knew we were lying on Iraq. During Vietnam, most of the rest of the world knew the facts. It was not a big mystery. We did it anyway, using lies as a fig leaf to cover our deeds . . . as now. We can debate why they did it, but it wasn't for any reasons that are good only in hindsight. I spoke out against the "advisor war" in February of 1962. It didn't take a genius. The speculation is that Kennedy was of the same mind but was killed before he could implement his change of heart. We'll never know. But we do know that plenty of people saw the truth then.

K, I agree more or less with the view-point you expressed. That is where the world is at, say, one version.

Imho, though, US/Israel will not attack Iran. It is posturing, bluff, on both sides, though Israel of course is serious, or rather the generals, as Israel has a military Gvmt. at heart, are!

Strategically, from my pov, which means an atlas to hand and a mild interest in matters military without knowledge, leaving US soldiers with their supply lines cut and the Straits of Ormuz closed is not on. Eg. Japan's economy would crash pretty quickly. Iran is large and far more powerful than is generally supposed. Anyway it couldn't hope for a better enemy than the US, who got rid - perhaps temporarily in one case - of its enemies, Saddam and the Taliban. (These are expected to take Kandahar in the spring.)

Some democrats, notably Kerry, made a point in the past of reconciling with Iran, and that was not for 'no reason.' Symbolic aerial bombardment is not excluded. But it would be a big mistake...the US has lost, completely and probably for ever, the image or aura of both invincibility and of cultural/economic supremacy. Anyway each sentence should be qualified and footnoted, but my drift is clear I hope.

Legal/constitutional question: Does the president, as "commander in chief", have extra-constitutional emergency powers during "times of war." For example, can he use this "wartime status" to extend his term, institute the draft without congressional approval, etc?

I worry he is laying the the groundwork for such actions, although I don't know constitutional law even a smidge, so would appreciate insights and feedback from some of you who might.

MiH: I don't know if it has ever been tested, but I think it would be unlikely and strongly resisted by just about everyone.

Huh, revere? As strongly resisted as

the spurious reasons to make a first-strike on Iraq instead of foucssing on catching Osama?, the Presidential "signing statements" rather than use vetos, the torture and "black sites" (So what; the Geneva Conventions?), and, holding accused people for ever with the evidence against them secret, listening in to phone calls made by all Americans, let's see -they can read our mail now, too, I think that was recent, ("oh I don't mind; it's keeping me safe," they say -We lost our country long ago), the electronic voting machines -ballots that can't be kept safe for recounting the way the founding fathers intended, calling legislature Cleaner air/water/whatever Act, that lets industry pollute air/water/whatever more?? Using the National Guard abroad just to avoid having a draft, preivatizing what the military used to do for itself, so Helliburton makes zillions, and, the US hires mercenaries?

Between all the stuff that is being gotten away with because the public hears about " the terrorist threat" every. single. day, while they do not hear about pandemic influenza year local unpreparedness, once pandemic starts, (Close the banks a few days, and we all wake up broke? nation is in debt, currency isn't backed by anything)
(and the military will be affected somewhat, despite their precautions -that will make tptb extra edgy), and, the JIT supply chains and grid disruptions, and the populace will be so sick (and wondering how the heck to do something with all the bodies every day)still will have natural disasters, civil unrest, that a State of Emergency will be easy, Martial Law will be certain,

and it will never be "safe enough" to put things back to normal....

Not having resiliant educated prepared households will make the survivors easier to make do what they're told?
"We had no idea it would be so bad!"
(Don't let any official say that; they had years warning that.)
I fear there may be too few survivors to restart any modern sort of economy...

The "Insurrection" clauses are already there, Mary; be very easy to have to cancel elections because of deadly panflu or grid disruptions, threat of terrorist attacks while we're weak, ect.

MIH-Status of that "issue" was brought up time and again regarding extension of terms. Has been throughout history. Lets just say that even the craziest conservative isnt going to back a president who uses his power to enforce what would constitute a takeover. Its not 7 Days In May. GWB will leave in about two years and lets see about his legacy....

Hmmm... something to ponder. Pelosi and Reid are going to be hanging on by their fingernails because they did get conservative Democrats in there.. So the Democrats New Direction is going to what?

The stock market is at a new all-time high and America's 401(K)'s are back.
A new direction from there means, what?

Unemployment is at 25-year lows.
A new direction from there means, what?

Oil prices have gone down.
A new direction from there means, what?

Taxes are at 20-year lows.
A new direction from there means, what?

Federal tax revenues are at all-time highs.
A new direction from there means, what?

The Federal deficit is down almost 50%, just as predicted, over last year.
A new direction from there means, what?

Home valuations are up 200% over the past 3.5 years.
A new direction from there means, what?

Inflation is in check, hovering at 20-year lows.
A new direction from there means, what?

Not a single terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11/01.
A new direction from there means, what?

Osama bin Laden is living under a rock in a dark cave, having not surfaced in years, if he's alive at all, while 95% of Al Qaeda's top dogs are either dead or in custody, cooperating with US Intel.
A new direction from there means, what?

Several major terrorist attacks already thwarted by US and British Intel, including the recent planned attack involving 10 jumbo jets being exploded in mid-air over major US cities in order to celebrate the anniversary of the 9/11/01 attacks.
A new direction from there means, what?

Just as President Bush foretold us on a number of occasions, Iraq was to be made "ground zero" for the war on terrorism -- and just as President Bush said they would, terrorist cells from all over the region are arriving from the shadows of their hiding places and flooding into Iraq in order to get their faces blown off by US Marines rather than boarding planes and heading to the United States to wage war on us here. A new direction from there means, what?

So I guess the Democrats are going to WHAT?

MRK - don't you know that the Federal government has ways of maniupulating figures to make things look rosy. I am a bookkeeper - Clinton did it too in calculating inflation - instead of comparing steak to steak, you change the basket of goods used to calculate inflation - so one year it includes steak, the next ground beef - voila no inflation and no need to increase SS payments.

The stock market is a pyramid scheme and due to collapse. It is not based on reality. The cracks start with the ARM's (Adjustable Rate Mortgages) due to rise this year. With that will come foreclosures out the gazoo. With that the housing market manufactured by the FED will begin to collapse, housing prices will drop, bankruptcies will increase, optional spending will cease. Its coming and the illusion that we are doing well will disappear.

Oh did I mention who owns our US debt - how long do you think China and Japan will continue to buy our bonds if they see any cracks at all.

Revere, if they "do" Iran it will be from air and sea - the surge in Iraq may be to get the oil and may also be to fortify the green zone if we or the Israelis bomb Iran. Of course bombing Iran is lunancy. They can make us hurt big time if they cut our oil and manage to close the straits of Hormuz. But administrations who are losing their game often try desperate measures. Many commentators are thinking that the appointment of a Navy man (Fallon) makes no sense unless the plan is to attack Iran from air and sea. If we do so, our forces in Iraq are very vulnerable so that may be the main reason behind the surge.

I wouldn't be surprised if a false flag operation is in the works (Like the Gulf of Tonkin non-incident) to justify attacking Iran - possibly on one of the many ships we now have in that area or something on the Homeland that will be blamed on the Iranians, just like 9/11 was blamed on the terrorists.

And before ya'll all attack me on that, check your science - WTC1, WTC2 and WTC 7 all fell at or very close to the free fall rate (WTC 1 11 seconds, WTC 2 9 seconds)(and yes WTC 7 also collapsed just as if it was a controlled demolition despite not being hit by any plane) . Pancaking buildings cannot fall at freefall rate as some time is consumed for each floor to cause the next to fall). So unless the rules of physics have been suspended, something is fishy in the official story.

Dare all who read this to watch http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003
and tell me I am wrong.

Sure, Revere, you remember the Dixiecrats. If you say much more about the sixties, I will be able to put a name on you. (By the way, Effect Measure and FluWiki have potential to accomplish as much as anything anybody did then. I hope, I condemn you, when the pandemic comes, to get you and yours to a place of relative safety: When we start picking up the pieces, we will need Effect Measure more than any number of idiots with guns.)

However, even you are talking as if Democrats and Republicans of the past are the same in more than name as those of today. Others are repeating propaganda of the time, and of today, as if they had some connection with reality.

As for the future of Iraqi-isation, in this article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6245851.stm
there is a picture near the end:
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42430000/jpg/_42430863_iraqpolice…
of Iraqi 'police' trainees. You can see, separated in the background, American soldiers and more Iraqis. The half dozen or seven in the foreground are being taught to think of themselves as a tiny minority surrounded in a sea of bitterly hostile aliens, as hated foreign invaders.

K... Okay you are wrong. Detcord and explosives all have poofpattern when they blow and no 5 pound charges would have done what happened. This was and is nothing more than mellting metal on either of those buildings. You take a transcon aircraft and load it with jet fuel-35,000 gallons and run it into a building at 450 mph its going to get very, very warm. With the chimney effect its astronomically hot. Also, the pin points on the WTC's were single fastener types. when one failed the pancake effect doomed the buildings. I am sure it was a ride into Hell. No one is that stupid my friend to even try that. They may have whacked Kennedy, but no one is dumb enough to do that especially when there was secondary surveillance of the scene by NYBomb Squad, the NY State Police. You would have to have a conspiracy of IMMENSE proportions. When they do covert they try to compartmentalize it and then people suddenly start disappearing. This isnt like Clinton where there is a body count following to his Presidency. I stll want to know if the National Security Act warning was issued to the crews of those ships operating on military mission when TWA 800 went down. "Our nearest military asset was 80 miles away", US Navy spokesman. Uh-Huh. It was a guided missile frigate. Ever notice how you never ever saw the other side the aircraft. Might the reason be that you can see where the metal is protruding upwards at an angle. Kind of like the pattern from a missile hitting you from the underside... Now there is your conspiracy.

So lets go out and conspire with Osama and friends to run aircraft into buildings. I was combat control and the FAA/DOD was doing everything they could to shoot those planes down. Too much traffic out there for an errant missile to land in a populated area and where they were they were definitely populated, worse to go in track mode. There is no call back once its fired. As a matter of fact I was parking aircraft here in Memphis that were from as far away as Brazil. Besides, if the President wanted to look presidential during this time he wouldnt have sat in a 3rd grade classroom looking like someone had just hit him. He was playing dodgem in AF-1 with all of the airliners and was cleared to cruise above 45,000 feet just in case which is above the CCA. He also had a full squadron of escort fighters with an exclusion zone of 100 miles and 30,000 feet.

Yeah, lets knock down the WTC's, that makes a real case for Iraq. By the way K, check your physics. Free falling buildings that have no underpinnings with weight geometrically added as they pancake will encounter nearly zero resistance as the load exceeds the loading by factors of the total number of floors pancaking onto it. It will in fact accelerate to near the maximum speed of 32 feet per second squared.

Also K, I agree that manipulation of the books is where the government is at on both sides of the aisle. Fact is, we are broke. Clinton balanced the budget by not making any payments to Medicare providers and HealthSouth and MedShares tanked as a result. Yeah, you can balance the books if you take in all the money and then dont pay your bills.Thats a matter of public record in both bankruptcy proceedings K. They simply quit paying and the government when deposed, simply said that they were over budget and told not to pay. The USGOVT was found at fault but by then the doctors groups had stopped seeing them and this resulted in Revere's national health care crisis. Yep, its a crisis alright. Better to not have one than to have one that is suddenly shut down.

Revere's,

I have just had a horrible thought.

Who is financing America's war on Iraq?

The scuttlebutt to this question is that China and Japan hold America's marks.

Is this true?

If so does America have a back up plan if/when China and/or Japan call in their markers?

The American administration has not said much if anything about how it is financing this war.

Just an idle question - I am probably barking up the wrong tree.

MRK please cite for me one tall steel skyscraper that has ever collapsed at free fall speed into its own footprint except by controlled demolition.

Be aware that Bush brother Marvin and a Bush cousin Wirt Walker were principals in the company that provided security for the WTC. Be aware that there were shut downs of whole floors and security in the weeks preceeding 9/11

Sure this Immense and therefore extremely scary - but the idea that the best and biggest army in the world could not prevent a hijacked airliner from hitting the Pentagon when they had 45 mins is pretty mind boggling too.

Perhaps Allah is God and can not only inspire men who have no actual experience flying jet liners to hit their targets so precisely, he can also inspire WTC7 to collapse even though not hit by any jet. This God can dismantle our air defenses and anti aircraft missles in our country's capital.

That is an Immense idea to consider too....

There is a whole group of knowledgeable people - physicists, pilots, firemen, demolition experts, politicians, military men etc (the majority retired and therefore somewhat safe from cooercion) who disagree with you.

For instance
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

Morgan Reynolds, PhD � Chief Economist, U.S. Department of Labor under George W. Bush 2001 - 2002. Former Director of the Criminal Justice Center at the National Center for Policy Analysis. Professor Emeritus, Economics, Texas A&M University.

* Video 6/2/06: "I first began to suspect that 9/11 was in inside job when the Bush-Cheney Administration invaded Iraq. � We can prove that the government�s story is false." http://video.goo

* Essay 6/9/05: "It is hard to exaggerate the importance of a scientific debate over the cause(s) of the collapse of the twin towers and building 7. If the official wisdom on the collapses is wrong, as I believe it is, then policy based on such erroneous engineering analysis is not likely [to] prove to be sound." http://www.l...

AND

Fred Burks � Former State Department Interpreter for Presidents George W. Bush and Bill Clinton, Vice Presidents Dick Cheney and Al Gore, Secretaries of State Colin Powell and Madeleine Albright. 18-year State Department career.

* Essay: "How is it possible that our military's highly touted missile detections systems could not locate Flight 77 in the 42 minutes it was known to be lost before it crashed into the heart of the defense system of the U.S.? �

An even bigger question is why isn't our media asking these questions? Why isn't our military spending many millions of dollars to find out why military defense systems failed on 9/11? Why is it that the 9/11 commission budget was far less than the budget allotted to the Challenger Disaster or even the Monika Lewinsky affair?"http://www.wanttoknow.info/911star

AND

Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret) � Commanding General of the U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, 1981 - 1984. Also commanded the U.S. Army�s Electronic Research and Development Command and the U.S. Army�s Intelligence School and Center. Former head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence. 32-year Army career.

* Video 7/11/06: "One of my experiences in the Army was being in charge of the Army�s Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence during the Cold War. I measured pieces of Soviet equipment from photographs. It was my job. I look at the hole in the Pentagon and I look at the size of an airplane that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon. And I said, �The plane does not fit in that hole�. So what did hit the Pentagon? What hit it? Where is it? What's going on?" http://www.und

AND

Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps (ret) � Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense during the Reagan Administration and a highly decorated Vietnam veteran (two Silver Stars, a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart). Appointed by President George H.W. Bush to serve on the American Battle Monuments Commission (1990 - 1994), and on the 1992 Presidential Commission on the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces. Military Historian and Deputy Director of Field Operations for the U.S. Marine Corps Historical Center, Washington, D.C. 1990 - 1994.

* Article 7/10/06: "The former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense under the Reagan Administration and a highly decorated Vietnam veteran and Colonel has gone on the record to voice his doubts about the official story of 9/11 - calling it �the dog that doesn't hunt.� �I'm astounded that the conspiracy theory advanced by the administration could in fact be true and the evidence does not seem to suggest that's accurate,� he said."

Victoria: I think my grandchildren are financing it. It is all borrowed money.

Your government is crazy. What are they doing? All the lenders have to do is call in their markers to bankrupt America. If the American government is not careful they will send America back 50 years. The British lost their Empire as a result of the enormous cost of the Second World War. Britain has never recovered. What a bloody mess!

It's the "national debt" (i.e., the deficit). They printed more money than they had and will have to make it up with time (interest on bonds, etc.). I don't think any one source owns the markers. It's in the same pot with all our other over expenditures. If the debt were "called in" it would bring down the international financial markets, to no one's advantage.

"it would bring down the international financial markets, to no one's advantage."

(which a panflu looks likely to do, anyway...)

Victoria, probably many didn't want the US to spend more than it could ever pay back, let too many other countries (who we rely on too much anyway for imports- where are our jobs?- ) buy our assets/debt, but, we're not the people who had the power to make corporations and politicians do it differently... Whole economy seems a ponzi game now; consumers stay in debt buying things they don't need, (national advertising budget alone could probably buy a pretty good national health care plan) US govt is in debt forever. One day we're probably going to wake up and find our money isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

Since we don't learn from History, it tends to rhyme alot, as the man said.

Revere, did my post this am just fail to post or are you censoring me. If it failed I will re-post.

Since my question posted I guess it was the length of my previous post that kept it from posting.

MRK please review this document by an Engineer in Accident analysis and tell me the fault with it
http://www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/WTC7_collapse_examination.pdf

Please tell me of one steel skyscraper that has collapsed in its own footprint in even close to free fall rate except by controlled demolition.

If the resistance per floor was even 1/20th of a second the collapse of WTC1 and WTC2 would have been about 5 seconds more than free fall. Free fall for WTC1 at 1368 feet would be 9.22 seconds - actual offical time was 10.09 seconds

This is IMMENSE I agree - therefore it is absolutely frightening.

K: I almost never censor comments. But Moveable Type arbitrarily seems to pick some to hold for moderation and I have no idea why as it doesn't do that to most of your comments. Since I move around a lot I don't always get to see when that happens and sometimes I don't notice that a comment I've been notified about was held and not published. I've published your held comment now and apologize for what the computer does without being told to.

Revere, I think K is using MSWord to publish. Every time I cut and pasted it so as to get it in, it does that goofy stuff wth the symbology. If you are using it, then you need to tell him what type set and size it accepts because you are able to put stuff into it using that rather than just the posting.

K. Feel free to post up some science with the conspiracy theory..... Not comments by me or yourself. There were NO blow patterns or explosives detected in either video's or Charlie Sheens conspiracy theory. A downward midline failure falling into the center as it did as it melted would cause everything you want to assert. Show me the poofs and the proof. You prove that and it would bring the country down.

MSWord shouldn't be a problem, but if you use it the safest thing is always to paste it in as Text (or save it as text first, either one).

I have not had much sleep over this one, so bear with me.

Revenge should never be taken lightly. It should be savoured. It takes years. Careful and meticulous organisation. Networks chosen. Informants embedded. Targets chosen. Wet work teams need to be trained and teams assessed. Quietly. Without fuss. Revenge is sweet.

Israel (more importantly Mos-sad) after the Munich Olympics very quietly, very meticulously chose its informants, its targets, it's wet work teams. She very quietly implemented a revenge that is still whispered about for its sheer brilliance. More importantly the Israeli public was satisfied with the result.

How do you break the most powerful country in the world? Answer: destroy America's power base - her money.

Bin Ladin, I fear, has succeeded beyond his wildest dreams. I hope, for the world's sake, he has not.

MRK - Dr. Steven Jones http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/WhyIndeedDidtheWorldTradeCenterBuild…

Other prominent people who question 9/11 and why
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

Two principals of the security company that was handling the WTC were Marvin Bush and cousin Wirt Walker. Employees in the building report many activities in the weeks before 9/11 - shut downs of the electricity, security, removal of bomb sniffing dogs supposedly for wiring upgrades.

No one was punished, censured or lost their job because the greatest military in the world let a plane fly for 45 mins after it was known to be hijacked. Apparently the antiaircraft that protects the Pentagon just stopped working. Pilots from nearby airbases all just missed getting to the hijacked planes in time to stop them?

The government's conspiracy theory is hard to believe too - at least for those willing to question authority. Hani Hanjour who couldn't pilot a small plane well, manages a tight loop and brings in a jetliner into the side of the Pentagon at ground level is truly a bit of a stretch.

If anyone reading this loves their country they will investigate for themselves, put aside the idea that it is too immense, and the idea that our government wouldn't do such a thing, and see if the government's story really fits the facts. Sure you will find lots of kooky things when you start to look so I suggest one place to start is the patriotsquestion911 link above - one patriot is Morgan Reynolds Phd who was part of the Bush Administration 2001-2002. His analysis at http://www.lewrockwell.com/reynolds/reynolds12.html

There are many more - we just don't hear it as the main stream press won't write about it.

Another long post just disappeared. I need to prepare to go to visit my dying Dad so I give up. Check out scholarsfor911truth.org and particularily this post by Dr. Steven Jones.

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/WhyIndeedDidtheWorldTradeCenterBuild…

BTW
Kevin Ryan was dismissed from his executive position at Underwriters Laboratories in 2004, after the public release of a letter he wrote to Frank Gayle, a scientist in the World Trade Center fire investigation. Ryan asked Gayle to clarify the results of a UL fire test on behalf of the National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST). In the test, steel structures similar to those used in the WTC were subjected to furnace fires for two hours at temperatures higher than those in the Twin Towers on September 11th. The steel withstood the test easily, and Ryan concluded this raised serious concerns about the NIST collapse hypothesis.

K. Its still not science. The temps that UL labs used were NOT the same that infrared cameras were detecting. The steel was melting and it was on the NBC as they filmed it from Rockefeller Center and helicopter as it flowed out the side of the building. I dont know why the guy was dismissed but I have the tapes showing the melting metal. It was literally pouring out of the sides of the thing and I saw it as it happened. I was on the phone with a freight forwarder who was only two blocks away describing it to him. When they zeroed in on that happening I told him the building was going to go and to get the hell out of there in case it tipped over. It was leaning pretty good if you recall.

To boot, atomized jet fuel burns at approximately 2800 degrees and adding in all of the fire loading of the building such as fast combustibles such as money, paper, carpeting etc it was a lot hotter. Structural steel melts at 1517 degrees plus or minus one hundred.

So why dont jet engines melt? The fuel is run around the outside of the engine to keep it cool and the the air flow on the high bypass keeps the outside cool and it acts as a heat sink. Now this is printed science K. What do you have beyond that stuff you posted up and that I read and still cant see anything proveable in? I want to see something beyond another damned conspiracy theory. I like science... load me up and I will speak on your behalf just as sometimes I do for Revere...When he is right and sometimes even when he is wrong.

Oh yeah, one other thing K. Flight 77 was operating in the CCA (Continental Control Area). No aircraft may operate in that environment without a functioning transponder and a backup system to boot. Why? Because K the 7110.65 Controllers handbook says that starting at 14,500 up to 45,000 feet all operations shall be conducted using narrowband radar (Mode 3C). This is done because of the slant range to an aircraft and the ambiguities at longer distances from the main bang of the radar unit. That is to say at 120 miles of splay due to verticality and actual straight line distance of even one degree results in about a 1 mile difference in the distance from what is painted on the scope and what its actually doing. This doesnt take into account the time that it takes for a radar sweep to paint a target between sweeps. 3 sweeps per minute is about what we have now and due to the fact that the closure rate between two airliners at say 39,000 feet is about 1200 mph thats a lot of time to screw up. That is also the reason that in that environment that you will have A MINIMUM of 1000 feet of vertical separation and not less than 5 miles (3 is basic separation). Try separating two airplanes that are about to smack together with something that is painting only once every 33.3 seconds. Think about how long 33 seconds is at 1200 miles per hour.

Next theory please K....An Army puke making statements about intercepting a raw radar return when at any given time there are over 12,000 VFR targets on the FAA radar that they cant identify is absolutely bullshit. Sounds like you arent old enough to remember when a MiG 25 entered the pattern at Homestead AFB, landed and taxiied up to the base of the tower. We didnt have and dont have AWACS flying guard over the US cowboy. Its too damned expensive and its based on the DEFCON which was 4 at the time. THREATCON was only 3 to boot. Kind of makes you want to run right down to Boston Logan and light up the security people who let box cutters, knives and everything else on the aircraft. OOoopps, we have to have them in the conspiracy too. There wouldnt have been a jacking if they hadnt been allowed on the plane with that stuff.

Sorry K. It sounds a little harsh but some of this stuff just kills me. They just fucked up man! Sorry for the language.

Waiting....

MRK Kevin Ryan was dismissed for telling an uncomfortable truth - and that is how the coverup works.

The NIST report says the melting point of structural steel is 2700 degrees F - are you saying that the report that explains how the towers fell by the official theory has bad science???? You dispute their science on that fact and agree with them on everything else????? Give me a break - if you can't get that right I give up
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

K....

9-11 Review: Steel-Melting Fires
1535ºC (2795ºF) - melting point of iron; ~1510ºC (2750ºF) - melting point of typical structural steel; ~825ºC (1517ºF) - maximum temperature of hydrocarbon ...
911review.com/coverup/fantasy/melting.html - 30k -

Like I said. There is no dropping of the structure from the bottom, it came from the top down. Conspiracy theories abound for everything. Hey, do you know who did Kennedy? There is your temperature of the steel used in the WTC's , not this new stuff. That steel was started in the early 70's and they were still screwing around with the mix of alloys with it. That was back when they thought they were going to build even bigger skyscrapers. Apparently this stuff had little tungsten in it because of the need for it in Vietnam era mechanized weapons...Armor. So it was adequate to the job for the time. I The amount of explosives needed to do a controlled drop of a building and to do it on a time schedule with preplacements would take WEEKS K. It took four months for them to wire the third biggest hospital in Memphis and that was with hole cuttings, wires etc. You have never blown anything up I dont think. I have a few bridges and improperly placed stuff just explodes and does nothing. Again, melting metal K. If you know how it could be pouring out of the building and then prove the explosion theory I would appreciate it. There was nothing on the seismo gear with the bureau of mines, nothing except airplanes hitting at the exact time and then the buildings collapsing. Call Charlie tell him that he is going ot have to do a lot beter than this stuff you are posting. Its great sell a book shit but terminations happen every day and likely because your boy published something that was not substantiated. He called something into question, then without UL's knowledge as I understand it published it as fact. Happens all the time and a big time stupid move. Even the worst researcher will get full blown and proveable data confirmed by independent parties before they make the statements. So they sell a few books and then they say we did it and then the aisle divides more. Like I said, you prove it you bring the country down.

Still waiting for incontrovertible.... K.

MRK I quote you "To boot, atomized jet fuel burns at approximately 2800 degrees and adding in all of the fire loading of the building such as fast combustibles such as money, paper, carpeting etc it was a lot hotter. Structural steel melts at 1517 degrees plus or minus one hundred." Now you acknowledge that you were using centigrade for steel. Either your were ignorant that you were using C for one measure and F for the other or you were deliberately telling a virtual untruth. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

BTW Wikipedia says the maxium burning temperature of jet fuel is 1796 degrees F with an open air burning temp of 599 degrees F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel

At any rate to fall in only 1 second more than free fall means that you only have 1 hundreth of a second per floor for the building to pancake.

The second congressional investigation of the Kennedy shooting was given a tape from a motorcyle cop. On it were the sounds of 4 shots. They officially concluded that there was therefore a 90 some percent chance of a conspiracy - at that point they closed the investigation and went home not wishing to find out who might have fired the 4th shot.

I am off to help my dad realize the scientific reality that he has to die sometime (the rapture not having come when predicted).

Get your F and C degrees in snyc and perhaps we can have a discussion.

K. Read the header to the above and see that it says 1517 F. , sorry about your Dad going. I have been there.

MRK
Back here - my Dad is still trying to hang on, hoping I guess for the rapture to come before his heart gives out. Well I guess one has to admire his fight for one more day after one more day.

Doubt we can resolve our differences of opinion on other matters.

couldn't resist my two cents. MRK, in a paragraph above you state ". I was on the phone with a freight forwarder who was only two blocks away describing it to him. When they zeroed in on that happening I told him the building was going to go and to get the hell out of there in case it tipped over. It was leaning pretty good if you recall."

Exactly. It was leaning pretty good...so how did it collapse inwardly falling precisely into its own footprint rather than falling to that side you saw it leaning toward. Makes no sense. (Oh, and one other thing: how much fuel does a jet liner carry vs how much steel is in a building that size? It certainly didn't carry enough to melt more than a couple of floors, if able to even do that. So again burning jet fuel doesn't explain how the building could fall at nearly free-fall speed if it were a matter of the upper floors melting their support girders and crashing into the next ones below. You're sticking with your argument about fuel, and totally ignoring the physics of that one. Oh, and absolutely nothing explains WTC tower 7 collapse. No jet fuel, design flaws, little green men...oh, I take that back. Little green men disguised as Cheney Rumsfeld Wolfowitz etc...that would do it.

MIH-Hi. So if it was leaning and then it dropped into its own footprint makes it a conspiracy? Or is it that it was never explained along with WTC 7 to your satisfaction? Molten metal, thermite, cutter charges, gas mains, diesel fuel, GWB's brother had a contract for security. Please, it couldnt possibly have been terrorists with a 450,000 pound airplane flying at .97 mach that cut the support beams out from the center of the building? Has to be a controlled drop. Cant be melting metal plate and beams that are gone. Cant be the only 2.5 inches of concrete spalling off and turning the plate into a griddle effect. Cant be the middle of the building structure metal melting that the guy who designed it said is what happened?

Jet fuel burns just fine at altitude as it cooks along in an engine. It also will melt titanium engine parts as it has in the past in many crashes. It also melts the aircraft down to puddles and powder. Even if it melted just ONE floor, it would doom the building. So far all I have seen is pictures that can be interpeted as something else just as easily Mary. But there is the one "THING" that doesnt fit someones idea so there has to be a conspiracy. There is no scientific back up for the claims that these people make. If there was I would be all over them myself. There are unanswered questions for sure. But the molten metal running out of the building(s) was enough for me. It ruptured all of the water and fire protection systems and had that survived the buildings might have.

There were those who questioned the SEC thing and the Enron investigation. Its New York, they were housed where they could do the most work. It is the business capital of the world and just down the street from the stock exchanges. I wont take any pictures as being evidence because their little smokies dont go lateral. There are no poofs as there would be from controlled demolitions and for crying out loud we would have had to been conspiring with terrorists. Now the Kennedy thing I think was a hit because JFK had been compromised with the M. Monroe gigs by the Ruskies and they were going to use it. Or he pissed off the Mafia. Either way, those questons will never be answered either.

Always be skeptical of your government. The difference here is unlike the Kennedy thing, there is no post 9/11 body bag trail of officials and figures to tag up. To be honest with you, I was surprised the fuselage didnt go all the way thru to the other side at the speed it was moving. Must have not hit those elevator shafts or the main trusses around the utility core. Nope just not possible. Must have been a conspiracy... and oh, lets make sure we blame yet another thing on GWB, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, and on and on. Its just way too easy to do that.

Its the auto-blame button being substituted for the auto-opposition button. Relax, in two years we will get someone else to blame in the White House and golleee gee, if its a Republican you can say the election was fixed again. Hey anyone seent hat Roosevelt and Pearl Harbor conspiracy report thing. Its around here somewhere......