After 2,629 days of George W. Bush in office, it's a little comforting for Americans to know our country doesn't have a monopoly on sheer stupidity. We now give officials in New Zealand their well earned share of the World's Biggest Morons Award (hat tip Boingboing):
Passengers on an Air New Zealand flight from Fiji found themselves being fumigated yesterday after it was discovered that the aircraft's biosecurity clearance had expired.An Auckland man - who spoke to the Herald on condition of anonymity - said two Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry officers boarded NZ21 from Nadi at Auckland International Airport yesterday morning.
"All we heard was that this was a MAF requirement. It was like how they used to do things on planes about 20 years ago, but I still thought it was pretty strange," he said.
A bio-security certificate prevents an airline from having to fumigate an aircraft every time it returns here.
The spraying left the man with a sore throat and caused a baby to gag and vomit.
The construction engineer said the MAF officers took about five minutes to fumigate the plane before leaving the passengers to sit in "a thick fog" as they sealed the door shut behind them. (New Zealand Herald)
The airline and the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry [MAF] explained that this was unusual but necessary because the biosecurity permit had expired -- by a few hours. And "rules is rules" as they say in the Small Minds thinking Tiny Department. So they sealed up the passengers and gassed them. All in the name of "biosecurity." Anyway, what could happen?
A Wanganui woman who suffered a severe asthma attack while on an Air New Zealand plane being fumigated says she feared for her life.
Terena Currey, who arrived in Auckland from Hawaii on Sunday, says officials ignored her pleas to be let off.
Ms Currey says the stewardesses were sympathetic to her medical problems and tried to escort her off the plane.
But she says a Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry officer over-ruled the decision.Ms Currey, who wears a medic alert bracelet, told the officer that she was a bad asthmatic and could not cope with the sprays, despite having an inhaler.
Ms Currey says the officer then asked if she had a medical certificate. When told him it was in her checked-in bag, she says he refused to let her off the plane.
Ms Currey says what followed was one of the worst asthma attacks she has ever had. (Radio New Zealand)
Now that's Stupidity. I'd say, "George Bush, move over," but these guys only put a small planeload of people in danger. George W. wins just for the sheer scale and reach of his incompetence. Still, these guys deserve some kind of (Dis)Honorable Mention.
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Any way to determine what they were spraying?
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/6/1172
KY Urayama, JK Wiencke, PA Buffler, AP - Cancer Epidemiology Biomarkers & Prevention, 2007 - AACR
... leukemia associated with exposure to pesticides ...
I normally hate to disagree with collective wisdom not to mention the razor sharp wit in these pages.
However, with the American voters about to elect yet another total novice in world affairs, though of course once again with lots of expert guides around him.
Accept in this case those guides and mentors in his life, who were the closest to him for most of his life, have been told to become invisible for a few months, due to er.. retirement and other reasons.
With Americans about to place at the head of this nation a person who really believes that HIS SAYINGS (well, not his sayings but..) are as important if not more so than those of Washington and MLK and takes offence if HIS words are questioned.
With all of us chasing a bright colored balloon, full of potentially lethal gas, simply because of it's color.
When Americans are about to place such a person in charge of our nation, during what could well be the most dangerous period of time ever faced by the USA, then I am afraid that no other country can have a higher claim on sheer stupidity.
Alan: We elect novices all the time. Some turn out OK and some don't. You never know and in this case I will settle for a vast improvement in rhetoric and outlook rather than another 4 years of GWB policies. I'm not voting for Obama because of his color. We'll see. In any event the US period of pre-eminence is over no matter who is elected. We'll see it symbolically when the monetize oil in Euros.
And it should be noted that Obama is a constitutional scholar with a firm history of upholding civil rights. I have also seen him tell people things they didn't want to hear but which needed to be said, and they actually listened. A rare talent and a very steady temperament. Good qualities in a president.
The politics of GWB and Obama are vastly different. Let's start with a campaign that's funded by individuals rather than political action committees, lobbiest and coroporations. At the very least, I support someone whose fundamental belief is that US should have a government by the people and for the people. GWB's policies have consistently expanded the rights of corporate interests over the rights of constituents. I welcome the Jacksonian politics of Obama over the fascist politics of GWB any day.
And let's face it, the alternative candidate(McCain) has shown that he is willing to prostitute his own values for the support of the religious right. When you have someone who is so willing to compromise himself for the power of office then you can be assured that he would do the office no honor.
The passengers should have mobbed these idiots and beaten them half to death. Then they should have stuffed them in the toilet and released the gas on them to finish the job.
Hey, a terrorist attack is a terrorist attack, no matter what disguise the terrorists are masquerading behind, or what weapon they attack with.
I'm sincere here. If passengers start wholesale slaughter of idiots, maybe the idiots will learn. Fine if they do, fine if they don't. Either way, it will spare the passengers much harm.
I don't get the extreme condemnation of this fumigation. In 1987 I flew from Hawaii to Auckland and just before we landed (or maybe it was after) the entire passenger cabin was sprayed with what we were told was some kind of agricultural prophylactic. I guess they don't do it much any more...
I have also seen [Barack Obama] tell people things they didn't want to hear but which needed to be said, and they actually listened.
Would that include having had him say, "Uh, hey, guys, I'm sorry, but this belief of yours that the U.S. government deliberately engineered the HIV virus as a biological weapon to wipe out African-Americans is total nonsense?"
--
Not that I know of, but I've heard him push through important legislation in the Illinois legislature under heavy opposition. I heard him oppose the war when everyone else was beating the drum. He was rock-steady debating that looniefoon Alan Keyes. I've seen him tell a group of graduating 8th graders (who were getting a pointlessly big send-off complete with gowns) "It's the 8th grade; tomorrow, get back to studying." I've seen him tell the auto industry - in Detroit! - to stop blaming the Japanese for their troubles and start making competitive cars. He told white America not to expect the previous generation of blacks to forget discrimination, but then he told black America that white Americans have a legitimate reason for resentment over affirmative action. I have never heard any black leader say that before. Certainly his pastor wouldn't ever say it.
Although I'm an atheist, I do understand something about church dynamics; the preacher isn't nearly as important as people outside the church think he is. Churches are communities and there's lots of stuff going on there. And although Wright had some silly ideas, he had some good points too. I'm friends with a couple preachers who believe things (beyond theism itself) that I think are just outrageously erroneous.
People have seen a few seconds of his preacher on video and think that's what Obama believes. But ask any minister how much luck they have getting everyone to agree on anything.
On my flights to and from India, out of HK, they used to spray us with insecticide at the beginning of each flight. Not sure if the practice continues as this was in the early 90's. I wear contacts so was not too happy, and simply closed my eyes until the smell went away.
But the Bush policies of the last 7 years have spread to other countries. New Zealand adopted terrorism laws that also suspends habeus corpus. In Asia and Europe you now have to put up with the ridiculous ban on liquids, but it is ok to buy them in the airport after you pass security, even though the people who bring those liquids in to sell never go through security, in the 1 in a trillion chance someone will blow his foot off and maybe cause an airplane to crash (too bad for the passengers but it is not like the plane would be used as a weapon that could kill an order of magnitude more as in 9/11)
As for Wrights belief HIV was spread by government. Consider that after experimental heptatitis B vaccines are given to promiscuous gay men in NY and SF between 1978-1981, we had our first Aids cases at this time. Supposedly this was from green monkeys that infected Africans and spread to NY, yet the problem was the HIV strain that affected the heterosexual population of Africa differed from the strain that affected the gays in NY. And we did a lot of vaccinations of one sort of another in Africa as well. It is interesting that most heterosexuals of European descent are genetically protected from the US strain. Not saying we did spread it, accidentally or otherwise, but it makes as much sense as the Green Monkey theory.
Consider the testimony of a Pentagon official named Donald MacArthur on June 9, 1969, to a Congressional committee
" "Molecular biology is a field that is advancing very rapidly, and eminent biologists believe that within a period of 5 to 10 years it would be possible to produce a synthetic biological agent, an agent that does not naturally exist and for which no natural immunity could have been acquired...a new infective microorganism which could differ in certain important aspects from any known disease-causing organisms. Most important of these is that it might be refractory [resistant] to the immunological and therapeutic processes upon which we depend to maintain our relative freedom from infectious disease...A research program to explore the feasibility of this could be completed in approximately 5 years at a total cost of $10 million."
http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Urgent_Action/AIDS_Contract.html
This from Rebuilding Americas Defenses authored by the PNAC team of Rumsfeld, Chenye, Wolfowitz, etc.:
"... advanced forms of biological warfare that can target specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool".
And the infamous Henry Kissinger NSSM 200 national security memo in 1974 emphasizing the importance of population reduction, and specifically targetting 14 countries, including those in Africa.
People believe what they want to believe. I can see where Wright is coming from, and given what has transpired over the last few years, anything seems possible. Your truth may be an illusion shared by a majority, but the Emperor might really be naked. At least consider the possibility.
A warning should be issued to all travellers contemplating travelling to Australia and New Zealand - Beware of Quarantine. Everyone coming into Australia and New Zealand, should be prepared to wait in long queues. Going through quarantine is a bit like pulling teeth. The quarantine officers are very thorough, they go through everything and I do mean everything. The cabins are sprayed to prevent insects that have stowed away in hand luggage, on clothes and in hair. Both Australia and New Zealand have well organised and well established Quarantine services.
Australia and New Zealand have been lucky, we are free of a number of biological threats, such as Foot and Mouth Disease. Diseases that have had major economic and environmental consequences for other countries.
The sensibilities of travellers, I think, probably come second to the protection of our unique flora and fauna.
"The sensibilities of travellers, I think, probably come second to the protection of our unique flora and fauna."
Yes, but the f***ing permit expired only a few hours before. There is no scientific basis for such timing accuracy.
The main problem is that travellers are being handled as cattle, by people that probably should be handling cattle.
Whether the certificate was expired by a few minutes, hours or days, those quarantine officers did the right thing, and should be congratulated for ignoring the self-righteous bleating of those from a litigious society like the USA that has screwed up its own biosecurity and health care systems.
Regulations exist for good reasons, particularly in countries like Australia and New Zealand that are fortunate to be free of diseases and their vectors. A few hours of exposure can make a big difference when it comes to whether a vector survives a dose of residual pesticide.
Look at the catastrophe in Australia with Equine Influenza from someone 'relaxing' regulations a little.
Three words - West Nile Virus.
I'd rather inflict a planeful of asthma attacks than release that nasty little virus (or others such as Dengue, Ross River, Kunjin, Japanese Encephalitis, Rift Valley Fever.... or the long list of livestock diseases) into a naive country New Zealand, putting the entire population (and the unique native fauna) in danger.
Lassi Hippelainen,
Boooo Hooooo, just keep on bleating. I don't think that we care.
As Attack Rate stated - there are very good reasons for our very strict quarantine regs. You guys have been so used to getting your own way that you've become overly precious. If you don't like it, stay at home. We certainly don't want you here.
By the way, resorting to 4 letter expletives is really impressive. Keep it up.
vjictoria, Attack, etc.: The question is not whether there are good reasons for biosecurity regs but the commonsense and judgment of those who are enforcing them. Would pursuit of the regs have been sufficient reason to kill all those aboard? Obviously not. You would want to achieve the objective short of endangering the lives of the passengers, right? There are obviously many ways to do achieve the objective, and killing everyone aboard is one, fumigating them is another and one can imagine many others. A way that endangered their lives and health of the passengers was the one chosen. Was that the proper way to do it? I think many of us would say "no". If you can't think of another, better way to do it I think you have poverty of the imagination.
About "the rules." If the plane had made it by half a second would it have been "all right" to let everyone off the plane? How about being late by half a second? There is a point where some modicum of commonsense has to be applied and in this case common sense didn't seem to be anywhere in the equation.
I have flown on many flights in and out of Australia, believe me the fumigation process in not an onerous one. The hostess walks very briskly from one end of the plane to the other, spraying as she goes. The smell is not unpleasant. I have never seen anyone choke or gasp. I have seen some people close their eyes and place a pillow over their nose and mouth (the vast majority of passengers do not do this), only ever for a short time. Part of the process also involves the aircraft air con system quickly venting itself, thus quickly clearing excess fumigant. I suggest that you people start to understand that newspapers sell through sensationalism and this "fog" was more than likely a case of exaggeration. Most of the comments against the fumigation are fallacious as the amount of the fumigant is determined by spec. I would suggest that the woman mentioned was hysterical and exaggerated and exacerbated the situation out of all context. Millions of people have accepted Australian Quarantine regulations and procedures. It is such a small imposition. Our Quarantine procedures have not stopped people from enjoying their holidays, on our ski slopes, our beaches, our mountains, our cities, or desserts, New Zealand's volcanoes, or our Great Barrier Reef etc. etc.
Correct me if I am wrong. America has or has had BSE? America has West Nile Virus? How many other exotics have infiltrated your Quarantine? How large is the American Quarantine Service? How does your service compare to Australia or New Zealand Quarantine.
Australian Quarantine Services have been in operation since 1908. The Quarantine Services in Australia and New Zealand are one of the larger government departments. The Quarantine Services are the only things that stands between the exotics and us. Every Australian and New Zealander understands how precious our unique flora and fauna are. Please respect the sovereign laws of our respective countries, as we are expected to accept and respect your laws.
@victoria: I'm not coming there for a while, I think. My last visit lasted for an hour. I was changing planes from Papeete to Nadi, and I just couldn't stand the beating of the sheeps. And the stench. Luckily I'm a large white male, and a quick glance from my steel blue eyes scared the cattle handlers away.
I would be interested in knowing how the bugs are affected by the permit. If the wheels hit the runway before the permit expires, does that disable the bugs? Or is it enough to arrive in the air space of NZ? What is the mechanism that informs the bugs? Maybe I should visit there just to find out. But first I need to know which plane to embark. They never told me anything about their permits.
Once upon a time there were people who claimed that they were just following the rules. Some of them got hanged anyway. In Nuremberg.
With a name like Lassi Hippelainen, and the fact that you are a large white male with steel blue eyes, at a guess I would say that you are possibly a Viking. Darling please don't be so dense. Just accept that Australia and New Zealand are within their rights to protect their own flora and fauna and of course our export markets. Besides, we are the ones that will have to live with the ecological and financial damage and costs, should their be a break down in our quarantine.
How can you tell that Vikings have been in your back yard?
The boat is gone and the sheep are pregnant!
Lassi,
I just re-read my last post. I must apologise. I just told a very off colour joke, at your expense. Please accept my apology.
victoria: So tell me, what is the fumigant? Do you actually know? Do you know the dose you get? Do you just trust them because it is "within spec"? And finally, is there no better way to do this than also exposing people? It certainly doesn't prevent a diseased person from entering. This is only for insect vectors. How effective is this for that purpose? (for example I would expect that there are many "shadow" areas where the fumigant doesn't reach). I must say, victoria, you are remarkably trusting about this while being quite cynical and suspicious about many other things. Not an unusual human trait, of course, to which we all must plead guilty.
The US claims it doesn't have BSE although I doubt if they know. They only look at a small proportion of livestock. As for West Nile, we don't know how it got here but there is no possible means to prevent it from crossing borders. Let me repeat: I am not against the Australian and NZ (and Hawaiian) biosecurity objective. It makes good sense. But this episode is just so monumentally stupid that it makes me gasp, even without being fumigated. Why defend moronic behavior? Even the airlines is saying it is reviewing its procedures.
Everything shuts down here on the weekend. Australians love their weekends. Come Monday, I will do some research and will get back to you as soon as possible, hopefully with some answers to your questions.
I believe that Quarantine uses a hypoallergenically tested household bug spray. But will check it out for you.
Correction Revere,
Just rang the Australian Quarantine and Inspection Service (AQIS). The main ingredient in the spray is phenothrin. Phenothrin has be exhaustively tested and re-tested, and is approved by WHO. The spray is said to be as safe as a hypoallergenicically tested household spray. Quarantine sprays are used stop all flying insects coming into Australia. We are very close to Asia, and thus far have managed to avoid malaria or dengue. The spray appears to be effective. The Quarantine officer I spoke to, said that in the 15 or so years he had been working with the department, there had never been a single complaint.
If you think that it is moronic to want to protect our beautiful flora and fauna, I suggest that you do not travel to Australia, New Zealand or Hawaii. That of course would be your very great loss.
Once upon a time there were people who claimed that they were just following the rules. Some of them got hanged anyway. In Nuremberg.
Posted by: Lassi Hippeläinen
GODWIN'S LAW!!! GODWIN'S LAW!!!
But seriously. We take stuff like this really seriously in NZ. And some of the exaggerations we get from tourists...
like the lady a few years ago who claimed mud from the rotorua mud pools burnt her skin off. There was a warning sign saying to wash off suntan lotion etc to avoid adverse reactions, showers were provided...
And I think the exaggeration from revere is a little intense. No one actually died. No one even passed out. If they had, something would have been done. I guess NZ still has that english public school "get hard, ya nancies" philosophy...
Love you Wazza.
As revere lamely attempts to equate GWB policies to protect the US from global terrorists and the NZ government policies to protect NZ from some bugs, I am reminded that I was sprayed by the Aussies after landing in Sydney 25 years ago. If memory serves, the Aussies announced they were going to spray we passengers and asked if anyone was allergic, sensitive, or had medical conditions whereby getting sprayed wasn't a good idea. I cannot remember the exact words, it was 25 years ago, but the opportunity was there to exit before sprayed. Perhaps the NZ folks should have listened to the women with the medical condition and maybe passed her under some UV light apparatus, like the local authorities here made me purchase for my well water, along with an iron filter, and an arsnic filter. I've been to Hawaii several times through the years, and I don't remember getting sprayed, just lei-ed (hahahahaha).
victoria: phenothrin is a synthetic pyrethrin. It is often used in combination with an insect growth regulator or knockdown agent such as piperonyl butoxide, a P450 inducer. Call him back and ask if it contains methoprene, a juvenile hormone growth regulator. Phenothrin was also used by Hartz for flea and tick sprays for cats but canceled at the USEPA's insistence in 2002:
Well, people will vote with their feet. I will definitely be flying off to New Zealand for a ski in the powder snow, a wild ride on a river, a bungie of the bridge, a hot bath at Rotorua, a fish on a river, a nose rub with a maori and the best food in the world. Flyspray is not going to stop me. How about you?
I'd be very surprised if this allele was inherited together with sexual orientation!!!
I must also mention that lots of US blacks have European ancestry. That's because nobody is called "mixed" in the USA -- even Colin "Paleface" Powell is called "black"! He'd almost certainly be called "coloured" in South Africa and "white" in Brazil.
Forget that monkey. HIV comes from chimpanzees -- I forgot which subspecies of chimpanzee, but it was found out several years ago which one it is.
In other words, your information is way out of date.
What do you mean "those in Africa"? As I'm sure you know, there are, and were in 1974, lots more than 14 countries in Africa alone.
With that name, he's got to be Finnish. Thus, not a Viking, at least linguistically.
Would you please learn to read for understanding? At issue is the stupid enforcement of the regulation by the hour, and its stupid enforcement on asthmatics, babies etc., not the regulation itself.
in ignoring the ongoing asthma attack of one passenger, thus putting that person's life at risk? no, they did not do the right thing. nor did that unfortunate woman's fellow passengers, who ought to have been beating down the doors to get her out at that point. human lives matter more than bureaucratic bullshit...
...except, apparently, in New Zealand.
No attempt to equate them. The NZ strategy makes sense (they just went about it wrong). GWB's strategy didn't even make sense.
Response to Kay on her comments about McCain.
Kay,
Perhaps you don't read what the religious right has to say about McCain, but they sure don't support him. So don't make uninformed statements like that he is prostituting himself for their vote. He knows he does not have their support. The religious right is the most conservative of the right side of the Republican party and they have already stated they don't like McCain.
Vote for whoever you want to, but don't make uniformed statements.
Remember, the people usually get what they deserve. This is not a democracy, it is a Republic. It only appears to be a democracy. Your vote only counts as far as the elctoral college and that may be rigged. Never think that it (a rigged election) can't happen here as it does every time there is an election, just ask Al Gore.
I thought Hillary was a shoe in until I heard Obama's speeches and I said he can influence people. He really is creating a "Cult of Personality" and has people drawn in like Lucifer with a silver tounge.
We have poor choices this time around in all of the candidates, both Democrat and Republican, they all have baggage and problems. Maybe any of them will be better than what we have now, but the future is an unknown and we must make wise choices on leaders, so choose wisely. The Terrorists are a real and present danger and we must consider who can deal with that danger best. What is the best course of action to protect the American people and our way of life and our freedoms. Do you want to give up your freedoms for security? Then you deserve to lose your freedom! Choose wisley!
Now come on....There would be some jerk in NZ all over these people for NOT enforcing the rules. In fact I think you can as a Aussie or a Kiwi go to jail for NOT enforcing the quarantine rules. They are pretty goddamn adamant about it. I relate that to their previous owners-the UK.
Its too damned bad that someone got sprayed for sure. Exposure to anything toxic is just that...toxic. But its the rules and you always have the right NOT to board the plane. You get on the plane, you submit to the rules. No, if Ebola or SARS was mosquito borne and it was landing back into YOUR countries there wouldnt be a discussion. They would have fumigated the engine intakes too to get them out of the air intakes.
Me, I would take off and nuke the plane from space....Its the only way to be sure.
bigdude: He did indeed prostitute himself (Falwell, Robertson, Hagee). It just didn't work.
Randy: Why do you persist in defending the indefensible. This was stupid. You can get arrested for jaywalking, too, but no one is arrested for it. Anyway, do you think that this was the only way to enforce the rules? Really? BTW, people in the Bush admin break the rules all the time and they don't go to jail.
MRK - oh I don't know about the Brits. Not sure if they were all that concerned about bringing in bugs when they were bringing in all those undesireables into Australia. Some might argue the bugs would have been better.....
Indefensible Revere? Its the law and the law says that if the certificate is out of date, you spray it...period. You have lab protocols and especially the ones in BSL-3/4's. Would you violate those because you thought they were stupid? If you pricked your finger with something like Ebola would you quietly slip out without saying anything.
Even if an aircraft is only hours out of date, it doesnt matter. Its set by a calendar or hours Time Between Service and based upon studies that created the regulations.It protocol.
What would I do? I would be in there spraying them all down. Defense? In your assertion, its GWB and insane policy by comparison. There is a difference. Its the law rather than policy. You can get arrested for jaywalking and thats what I always hear when something like this comes up. The chances of jaywalking affecting a whole nation is about zip. Its the law and to the credit of the NZ's its not the NAZI's using Zyklon B. The law is there for a reason in NZ and the same applies to the Aussies. We have them too.
Phytosanitary certification is very important. Think not? Ever heard of the Formosan termite? It was brought in on wooden pallets that were infested. They cause about 1 billion dollars annually in damage.
So lets all just say its stupid... because its a progressive misstep to say that we have to follow the law, protocols, and disregard it because someone doesnt believe that the law should apply to them.
Stupid? Hardly. Unfortunate? Yes.
You may not know just how fragile the ecosystems in NZ and Australia are. If you want to see what happens when foreign species gets introduced, just look at the cane toad and rabbit problem in Australia. Even domesticated cats and dogs are a very big problem for native wildlife.
This item is a bad incident, not a bad program. As for the time frame, how long is "a few hours?" The plane came from Fiji, that's about 2100km iirc, just under 4 hours.
Randy: I have bad news for you about the lab protocols but I don't want to stress you too much so I'll let it go. It's never a question of "just the rules." That's a recipe for disaster and stupidity. As another commenter said, this is according both a false accuracy to the period of a certificate (would you do the same if it was elapsed by a microsecond?) and it ignores the fact that it is almost certainly true there were other ways to satisfy the objective than closing the doors and fumigating the passengers along with the plane's interior. I am not arguing that biosecurity is not important. But it doesn't excuse what is clearly a terrible lapse in judgment and common sense. If the asthmatic had died, would it still have been a matter of "the rules"?
No it wouldnt have been the "rules" as you put it Revere. It would have been the law. They could sue of course but it likely would get thrown because it was procedure and its a NZ anti-bug procedure. The need of the many outweighing the few.
Well we just arent going to gas them today, its only out by a nano-second. And one pregnant saber-toothed flying cricket happily introduces say Malaria into NZ. Its all about the procedures that everyone agrees to comply with. Its worse here when you do it.
But this wasnt the airline reviewing its procedures, its them reviewing the procedures for getting the airplane certificated. It was the government of NZ following the law and that means that when the airline doesnt comply with it, the passengers get gassed along with all of the other bugs infesting the planet. Fly the friendly skys of Auschwitz.
If someone is sickened they likely have a case against the airlines for prima facie neglect. Would the people have been gassed by GWB in NZ if the airline had complied with requisite certifications? Nope. Case closed.
Revere said:
>As for West Nile, we don't know how it got here but there >is no possible means to prevent it from crossing borders.
Revere, this is false. Risk analyses show that the likelihood of the vectors ever reaching New Zealand independently are so close to nil that the difference isn't significant. Livestock imports are almost impossible and the test and quarantine regimes are significant.
Therefore, the only possible points of entry for the vectors are cargo ships and passenger planes, and if they are fumigated, then the vectors can't enter.
Given no vectors and no infected livestock, the lack of susceptible migratory bird species and that humans (as far as I am aware) don't produce an adequate viraemia for transmission if any native species proved to be competent vectors, provided they keep religiously policing cargo and passenger entry points, New Zealand is probably as close to safe as can be. Australia is a different story - close enough to PNG for potential windborne spread of vectors.
This is why, even if the residual certifiate is only a few hours overdue, everything is sprayed. On a short flight, the residual certificate being a few hours overdue might mean that the residual wasn't effective at the time the plane was boarded. It's not worth taking the chance.
As for the individual with asthma, I agree with M.R.K (although it would be a first for me) - the good of the many comes first, although I also recognise the previous point about the media sensationalising things.
For what it's worth - in New Zealand, this didn't make the news.
AR: I was referring to the US. Islands like NZ and Australia and Hawaii are not the same. As I said over and over on this post and the comments, I support the biosecurity effort of all of these countries/states. But that doesn't mean that anything goes. Do you really think the benefit of that particular action -- as opposed to another that would have achieved the same end -- would have been worth a death or even a hospitalization?
Revere-It most certainly would be justified if it protected the rest of a country if it resulted even in one persons or the entire planeload of people going down. Its not the absolute in this, you of course wouldnt want to lose even one. Yes, they would have their rights violated and their heirs would be compensated but I would take out a cruise ship to protect the rest of the world. With SARS/H5 or whatever comes down the pike, each situation is different but I fear that this little post up you have made has brought a glaring light onto the reality of the day. Its not GWB. The entire planet is having to take stock and that stock is that we have to move back into the system to preserve it. You fail to do something related to this and there will be repercussions. There was another way as you said....It was to put a bubble over it and inject it with carbon dioxide and nitrogen.
Its bug killing of a type with GWB too. For instance. Terrorists take a cruise ship. They are attempting to make port in San Francisico with a nuke on board...Those little vermin are going to have to be dealt with. What would YOU do to stop them from getting there?
The obvious answer is that you could spray (air or sub attack). But would you do it? No difference between the two as best I can tell. They arrive by whatever method, they do their thing, they cause loss of life, property, economic resources. How many people would you give up to stop them? Now there's a question.
BTW-What particular action as an alternative would you have done. I can find no "alternatives" other than not doing it at all or a more than the mentioned costly bubble operation over the entire aircraft. The line between economics, the law, compliance, personal preferences, the hazards to NZ and other places, and the needs of the people all if placed onto a graph merge at some point Revere. The end result is hazards to or death of humans. The actions in the linearity of it could have been interrupted at any point in the chain if the airline had complied. They didnt. These guys paid the price.
Vis-a-vis, all we ask from our terrorists is that they use the system, they dont. We respond with our various bug sprays such as going to Iraq because thats where we thought the bugs were. There were a lot of them and we got most. But there are always survivors. We just wait for the next swarm.
.
Read the below. You are a virologist and I think you'll find this very interesting. Sounds like an op plan to go to Iraq or to NZ to comply with the ICAO regulations and as agreed upon by the entire planets aviation officials.
Call me crazy but its published Revere. It says clearly that the doors are closed and you get hosed.
http://www.icao.int/icao/en/atb/fal/panels/falp3/ip01e.pdf
Randy: They could have let the people off and fumigated the plane with all carry ons still onboard, as a "for instance." It is ridiculous to think that the fumigation they did penetrated to all parts of the plane and the persons on it (half of whom were reported to be huddled in a ball to avoid the dusting). Remember the people themselves have been all over the place and aren't usually subjected to this, so the passenger's certificates didn't expire, just the plane's. If people carry the bugs on the plane they do it every time they travel, whether the plane is within the certification period or not.
Revere,
I smell a rat. Tell me something. Do you have a competition running among Revere's to see who is able to pull the longest thread? If you don't, and I am saying this in the nicest way, you are the one that is being moronic! Still think you are great though.
victoria: Yes. You nailed it. As one revere said to another just the other day: My thread is longer than your thread!
Ooooooooooooh! I did not mean it in a rude way.
But thats the reason for the fumigation. Its done apparently ever couple of days or hours. Remember now this is the International Civil Aeronautics Organization thats doing it and specifying in writing what must happen. The operator of the plane can take the hit of course but sorry, you have to gas the people too.
My thread by the way has all sorts of barbs on it and takes a slight turn to the right.
Victoria, hit me on the email when you get a chance.... I have news.
Randy,
Have tried a number of times to email you. Fails every time.
Do you have a new email address? Could you give me your email address again - I may have it wrong.
Lao-Tsu said, " Word is in prose; word is not in prose also."
Lower down the tones a bit. :0)
" Therefore, the meek way prevails well.", said Lao-Tsu.
Victoria: "Please accept my apology."
It's OK. I don't take the Internet too seriously. I even try to write with my tongue at least a little in the cheek.
I'm not opposed to the policy, I'm opposed to the way it is being implemented. Incompence trying to hide behind the back of science. If those goons are really that much in love with Procedure, then the Procedure needs a change. For example, give each permit two expiration dates. Pass the first one, and the airline has to pay a fine; pass the second and the plane gets sprayed. The airlines would get the message: keep the permit in force.
David Marjanović: "With that name, he's got to be Finnish. Thus, not a Viking, at least linguistically."
Yes, I'm a Finn, but so were many of the Vikings. The eastern route from Sweden to Micklagard (a.k.a. Constantinople) went through Russia along old Finnish trading routes. The Swedes recruited Finns both as guides and as warriors. And they returned with lots of silver.
http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2008/04/humble_iron_age_grave_…
Lassi,
You have a sense of humour. Fantastic!
I too, do not take the internet too seriously. Everybody appears to want their thoughts heard. It is all a bit of a game. I look forward to reading what you have to say in the future.
Victoria,
mail25368@bellsouth.net or memphisservices@bellsouth.net.
Randy,
Sorry have tried both addresses - there must be a block somewhere, definietely not at this end though, as have received your group mail.
Well said victoria, "I too, do not take the internet too seriously. Everybody appears to want their thoughts heard. It is all a bit of a game."
Game indeed, and with that thought in mind, Oh revere: Thought of sending you an email but while I'm here:
1. Is MRK a revere?
2. Two reveres or several?
3. Is MRK a moderator?
And fourth, let revere answer would you please MRK?
Thank you.
Lea: Revere is like Allah: there is no Revere but Revere. But how many reveres/Reveres? Ah, the great mystery. MRK is definitely not a moderator, however (that would make MRK a sock puppet, which he is not. He might be a printing press, but he isn't a sock puppet. MRK is apparently a real person, all evidence to the contrary. Even I find this hard to believe, but I am quite sure it is the case.)
Yes, "rvere", your infinite wisdomness.
Lea, even I dont even know how many there are.....Even if I knew for sure I wouldnt tell. Lets just say there is more than one but less than 1000.
Back in the days of yesteryear I was looking to see where some damned spyware was floating in from along with an occasional free virus from some demented soul and stumbled upon the Reveres. To find them it wasnt possible unless you had access to the old DARPANET language and some really hard cased mini-main frame that could track and report as it happened. I wasnt looking for them but I was wondering whether the SciBlogs was peppering us with spyware and yes indeed it is but its just tracking bots. No biggie.
No, with the exception of a few right wingers and even less hard case right wingers I am the only one.
Victoria, check your virus protection levels. Also if using IE check your firewall and see if an exception needs to be made in it. Control Panel, down to the near bottom, Firewall Protection, click on exceptions or uncheck no exceptions.
For grins try mail25368@bellsouth.net and see what happens.
Reveres are those who at least married Italian descendants as far as I know.
These are the reasons that I've learned to cook Spaghetti and eat out Pizza often to know them better. But I can not be Revere any more, unfortu...
Randy,
Apparently I have been "blocked for abuse" from your end.
Randy,
Here with text.
Remote host said: 550-202.154.92.226 blocked by ldap:ou=rblmx,dc=bellsouth,dc=net 550 Error - Blocked for abuse. See http://www.att.net/bls_rbl/ for information.
I,m with you PASQ242, but I'd take it further. We should all travel NAKED! This way, pesticides could get into all those little spaces. Only one problem. If I had to sit next to a fat, hairy belly or a gigantic swinging tit, I would probably smash open the window with my duty free bottle of single malt whisky and crash the entire flight.Hmmm
Victoria-Can I get you at the Ali Q number?
Oh mara, your comment is wonderful. More humor please!
Randy - You can get us on r.collier@aliquantum, v.collier@aliquantum, sales@aliquantum. If you want to contact by phone the details are on our web site.