Freethinker Sunday Sermonette: the outlook is gay

For what it's worth, yesterday the Globe and Mail reported that a quarter of Canadians don't believe in God:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080531.wgodpoll053…

I find the god question fascinating when it is framed in terms of 'higher intelligence' without the metaphysical underpinnings. Arther C. Clarke said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Popular skeptic writer Michael Shermer once modified this to become, "Any sufficiently advanced ETI [extra-terrestrial intelligence] is indistinguishable from god."

Will we ever be able to build AI based on quantum computing technology? Does similar technology exist somewhere else in our universe (or multiverse)? Has evolution of intelligence taken profoundly different paths in distant civilizations? Are there quantum tricks unknown that can be exploited by such higher intelligences that yield other god-like properties and perhaps even some interconnectivity? In these ways, do things like gods (at least from our very limited perspective) already exist?

Perhaps an even more fascinating view (and maybe one of the most sensible arguments for the possibility of an external 'god') is the one presented by Nick Bostrom's "Simulation Argument," which basically states that we could exist in what is essentially a computer simulation, perhaps nested within a great number of other simulations. In this way, things like 'divine intervention' are entirely conceivable but also entirely unnecessary for the functioning of our universe.

I highly encourage anyone to read more on the simulation argument: http://www.simulation-argument.com/

Edmond, Can I get my simulation code checked for malware? I always thought my personality flaws might be beyond my control.

Revere: "Most people are religious by default"
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Agree. It is not big news. In fact, every Homo sapiens is a human-ness of default. Democratically elected politicians, scientists (signed non-global warming, etc); no one can name any default- less example. Everything which passes thru human's hand either distorted or corrupted; therefore scientific publication needs to have peer review and standard method for repeated proof; therefore democracy demands check and balance system which included Fourth Estate such as EM. Even human have done all measures, scientific knowledge is called tentative- open to be updated.

The above depiction is convergent with the true religious confession- by Rowan Williams'"a life equipped for question and provisionality in respect of all our moral or spiritual achievement: a life of repentance in hope".

This is one of the example to see the convergence; scientific knowledge is tentative, religious faith is a life of repentance in hope.

Revere: "Religion is a social custom inherited from their parents, "
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Religion is a cultural evolution from several millions years, and from several thousand years having with literal documents as revelation; I personally reason that the depth of this tradition mediated rationality is more empowered than scientific discovery; in fact they two can enhance each other. But I choose to respond to the inheritance from parents this part as follows:

One of the hopes for human culture evolution is to renew and to reflect the good tradition of family education and parenthood. For instance, full time mother before certain age, good father to teach their children swimming, etc. So, Revere if you had done this course, then you would do much better for your grand-child. :-)

Yes, religion starts from family. But I do not mean to do home schooling. Healthy family with committed living example to extend to public education is the excellent path for a person to grow.

By the end, I would like to share a true story which was poignant and vibrant.

About 12 years ago, an American girl named Elisabeth; she was from a medical doctor's family in New York City, after her college education, she volunteered via YMCA to work in Tainan, Taiwan for two years. I personally met her one time in my sister's church where she is the pastor's wife and a nurse. The following was told by my sister.

One day, Elizabeth rode a bicycle to work and had the accident and lost her life. It was so shocking to everyone in the church, YMCA and the city. Finally, Elizabeth�s father arrived and alone, my sister was involving with the reception and company. The first day, many church members were accompanying, all were in tears. The father was calm and comforting instead. He met the accident's driver. The driver knelt down to ask for forgiveness; he hug the driver and said "You are not intentional I know." I thought that no one can ask more grace than this given-ness.

Back to the church, usually in Taiwan the pastor's family is in the church compound. My sister took the father around, into the church building, and then my sister pointed the seat that Elizabeth usually sat. The father looked very solemn, when he sat on the seat. His tears flow down. And he sat long on that seat.

My sister told me that in her church service, it was a time that she met the experience of a living God.

Elizabeth and her story were remembered in Tainan, Taiwan. I heard that her stature has been in city Park since several years ago.

Sometimes, I think that in our life, there is some moment that only God can console us. We should not give up this privilege.

You don't believe this; then you most likely will contract with maniac-depression. I advise you: don't test.

LOL Tony.

But of course the kind of simulation that is being proposed by Bostrom is a bit different: one that would model the fabric of nature so that events play out in a way that is not predetermined, approximately in the way they would in the nature(/universe) that is being modeled, and with enough precision so that we are unable to detect any anomalies.

Simulations might be nested within other simulations. However, there would have to be some base reality that is of such a nature that allows such simulations to happen. Bostrom focuses on ancestor simulations because this allows him to make a specific logical argument. But the idea can be extended so that it might be possible to have simulated worlds that are intentionally very different from the world that is running the simulation.

Hey Edmund: Talk about conspiracy. Please, this Simulation Argument stuff has been around for years.

Besides, God is not 'external' rather 'Internal'.
You see, the Soul? Something religions are incapable of recognizing.

paiwan: there in lies the downfall of religions, nine times out of 10 it boils down to an emotional decision, not a well reasoned one. Religions play on emotions, a crime indeed.

I'm an atheist, but the Magic 8 Ball is real! I was, reluctantly, going to see Jerry McGuire with friends. I asked the Magic 8 Ball, "Is this movie gonna suck?"

Quoth the Magic 8 Ball: "Best not to tell you now."

ALL HAIL THE MAGIC 8 BALL!

Lea,

Perhaps you think the idea of living in a computer simulation seems similar to sci-fi plots like in 'The Matrix'? Is that what you mean by 'conspiracy'? There are a lot of possibilities if simulated worlds really exist, and I suppose a sci-fi sort of conspiracy plot might be one of them.

But serious consideration must be given to what the goals might be of what Bostrom calls a 'post-human' society. A society that has computers capable of running simulations most likely has advanced through a number of other technologies that it could have used to self-destruct; the fact that it didn't self-destruct probably is reflective of society's balanced, peaceful, and ethical goals. This makes nefarious schemes less likely.

So as this reasoning goes: if there are a billion civilizations in a given universe that progress to the point of running simulations, probably only a small number of them are using the simulations for unethical purposes. Thus, if we're inside a simulation, it's more likely we're in a simulation being run by the ethical civilization.

What evidence do you have that god exists and is internal? What evidence do you have that humans have a soul?

I am not aware that there is any conclusive evidence of these things. As far as I can tell, it is unknown whether or not god exists at all. However, it might be possible to find out, although I'm not sure about that either.

The position I just outlined is called 'weak agnosticism'. And as an extension of my weak agnosticism, I am also a weak atheist. I don't believe in god, but I don't make any assertions about the existence of god either.

The major religions of today were all created by aliens who descended as angels or sons of god. They re-engineered humans to make us smarter and more warrior like, which was not hard since they found the daughters of man hot. Their mission was to develop us and colonize the world within 6000 years, and thats why we had to be more warrior like (before we were like lambs, and dumb as all get out). Their race had much experience doing this and found faith based religion of a personal god a good way to control local people. They then created additional religions to divide and conquer. The blue print is what we call the Old Testament, New Testament, Talmud and Quran. At one time the aliens hid behind the Jewish religion, which was the first one they established. Over the last 2 centuries, this is not true and they have seized control over and are members of all the religions, since the time is coming to globalize us. They do not believe in these religions, they use them.

The End Times that the major religions have in common is the way they put the finishing touch on the Globalization, or One World Totalitarian Government necessary for Colonial Rule of the aliens. The elite are genetically polluted by the aliens way of thinking, but the top ones have maintained a certain level of purity and will maintain their standing when the aliens come. They basically control pretty much everything today.

Anyways, the technology exists today to give us bioengineered pandemics, earthquakes, cyclones, volcanos, pretend wars, famine, holographic images in the sky showing UFO's, radio messages sent to mans minds in every language announcing the return of the messiah, a rapture by remote control crashing of planes and vehicles, etc. A perfect enactment of the End Times and the return of the King to rule us all.

Once this is done, well, they will start culling the herd. They do not need so many slaves to exploit our resources for them, maybe 600 million, the other 6 billion can be disposed of, as they have tremendous technology. DNA testing will help determine who stays and who goes, based on how much alien DNA they have and how free it is of mutations . The young good looking ones might be kept as sex slaves, even if they have bad DNA.

They needed the infrastructure that we have built up for them, and slaves that are technologically competent and in enough numbers, and that took 6,000 years. Also, they are great genetic engineers, and can utilize our DNA in their experiments, and provide surplus humanity as food for intergalactic and galactic travellers who stop by earth for a resupply shopping (frozen meat, including human) or fast food human burgers. Perhaps we will be a major export in galactic trade if we are tasty enough, then they might keep us in bigger numbers, in conditions sort of like the cattle and hog farms.

Many of the religous will be duped into heading to the camps that will process them by receiving a ticket to one of the many God Ships that will have arrived, or so they will say. The Hollyood writers took some down time on their strike to work it out and it's been filmed for CNN and Fox to show as breaking news. The ships will take the worthy to heaven. They will be told to pack lightly. Heh heh. You can just hope you get ordered rare and not well done.

My analysis suggests that the Tribulations have begun, not sure if 2001 was the start and this year is the last one, or if this year is the start, and we have 7 years to go, or 7 months starting from May 1.

It should be interesting, either way. Good luck.

If you feel anxious, remember, I might be wrong.

Proof, the underlying theme of Effect Measure and the mantra of the mind. Soul exists within, buried by the mind. Purposeful.
It starts with a true desire and recognition is enough. When the student is ready the teacher will appear.

It's much like my desire to know who "revere" really was. It was nagging at first and I wanted proof of an actual human being. When I stopped needing the proof, in a very unexpected way, then and only then did I find out who revere was Edmund.

I've been down this road and discussion before here at EM and truly don't want to convince anyone because each person's experience is necessary for their progress or the lack thereof.
I've spent years upon years studying, denying, crying, begging, surrendering, and searching for answers.
It has basically boiled down to a process of elimination and the continued sincere desire to know the truth.
Organized religion(s) were never able to deliver what I felt in my heart of hearts.

One request, one question leads to two requests, two questions and on and on. That is the mind, not the soul that is absolutely buried by layers upon layers of mind stuff. When one is able to quiet the mind (good luck) then answers issue forth, or at least an inner knowingness.

How about It just Is.
And how about I am only able to offer nuggets of truth here and there.

Lea,

You say:

"It has basically boiled down to a process of elimination and the continued sincere desire to know the truth."

The process of elimination only works when you know how many answers you have to choose from, like perhaps on a multiple-choice test. The god question is not multiple-choice.

And what if the truth cannot be known? What if what you think is god is nothing more than a manifestation of your mind? What if what you feel in your "heart of hearts" is nothing more than a figment of your imagination, no matter how real it might seem to you? There are many popular atheist writers who have argued that belief in god is simply a delusion. I'm not going to argue that, but I do acknowledge it as a possibility.

Here's a simple and common example of how the mind can experience things that aren't really happening. I suffer from tinnitus (ringing in the ears). I hear a constant high-pitched sound, sort of like you might hear from certain CRT television sets. It seems real, just like any other sound does. But it's not real. It's an illusion due to an error in the way my brain is interpreting signals from my inner ear.

One more thing: finding out who Revere is has nothing to do with finding god. Your analogy doesn't work. One reason is that you know that Revere exists. Another reason is that there is measurable and testable evidence that you can use to find out who Revere is. Neither can be said for god.

Edmund, Lea and Revere:

Do we need to use the torch (Flash light) to search for the Sun? Our nude eyes are enough; therefore the tradition mediated rationality from our great-great-great-grand parents will suffice.

First and the foremost direction in the United States is the true manifestation of Judeo-Christian tradition; the first sign of the hope.

The latest witnesses were the rescue mission for nearly ethnic cleaning Muslim in Croatia before, etc. The free land as home for immigrant Jews in the United States which were including for Intel's Andy Cross, many others and great senior Revere.

I have Jewish friend the Levines in New York city- a medical doctor's family who was one of pioneers in caring for Vietnam's reconciliation, a true spirit of Christianity. I met one of the family members who cares for Tibet and inspiring to many of my friends. ( Nevertheless, they admitted even in the US some tough and painful experiences from Christians). Forgiveness and covenantal relationship nevertheless are and will be emerging. The EM have proven to me the possibility.

All good Jews and Christians believe in God as the symbol of justice and compassion, the Creator of the universe and the Lord of the history. It is the ultimate foundation of new evolution for human civilization. This is the road that is the least traveled.

The only criteria is to walk the talk that makes the difference.

Paiwan,

Finding the sun has nothing to do with finding god. Your analogy doesn't work. The sun is measurable and detectable in a large variety of ways. For example, we can detect the sun with our eyes, and then we can use instruments that measure photons to confirm that light is indeed being emitted. That's just one simple example.

God is something that some people claim to "feel" but there's no way we know of to confirm that such a subjective experience is anything more than a figment of the imagination. There's no instrument that we can use to detect god's presence and confirm that a person's feeling of knowing god is based on something real. We can do that with the sun, but not with god. That's why your sun analogy doesn't apply.

You certainly don't sound like a weak atheist to me Edmund.

Lea,

I have not made any assertions that god doesn't exist. I've said that I don't know if god exists, and therefore I don't believe in god. I'm not going to believe in something that I'm not sure exists. It seems like the only reasonable position I can take.

I take it that your position is one of agnostic theism. You can't say that you have real evidence (something more than just feelings) that god exists, but you believe anyway. That's fine of course -- believe whatever you wish. Maybe you're even right. But my desire is to remain as objective as possible on the question of god, so I'm not able to take such a position.

I imagine that for many agnostic theists, the positive emotions experienced from believing in god outweigh any cognitive dissonance from believing in spite of lack of evidence. For others, such as myself, the balance in positive and negative emotions is reversed. I'm much happier waiting for adequate evidence before choosing to believe.

Honest to Ceiling Cat, they ought to throw that guy out of the Drag Queens' Union for multiple felonious wardrobe and makeup violations. Honey, you need an Extreme Makeover!

/snark

Edmund "I have not made any assertions that god doesn't exist. -------- For others, such as myself, the balance in positive and negative emotions is reversed. I'm much happier waiting for adequate evidence before choosing to believe.

"God is something that some people claim to "feel" but there's no way we know of to confirm that such a subjective experience is anything more than a figment of the imagination.------We can do that with the sun, but not with god. That's why your sun analogy doesn't apply."
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Edmund: Let me explain what my sun analogy implies here. It only implies that a laughable picture of a man to search for the sun by a torch.

My main theme nevertheless is pointing to a simple rationality by an embodied example of Judeo-Christian tradition which I have assumed to be an easier platform for us to dialogue.

Very often, I have thought that life experiences will naturally educate us to understand the existence and the recognition of God; as Martine Buber's advice-when you stretch yourself truly into the world, you will touch the hand of God. It is so simple. Maybe it is the theologians, philosophers and scientists make it complicated. :-)

Just like the best way to understand the wine is to taste it, the expert's opinions are auxiliary. My previous post described the Jewish tradition for a father to teach the swimming to his children. All the methods in logic and rationality of the swimming can not replace a loving father to accompany his child physically in the water and safe-guard the child to conquer the fear and the risk to achieve finally the trust in the water. The original Christian baptism in fact had similar ritual of immersing a person's body totally in the water.

For your post of looking for rational evidence, as far as I am concerned, it is a road of long trip. Because as an aphorism states, "We know more than we can prove." (John Habgood) For instance, the simple eating every day; our eating habit and style is beyond what we can prove scientifically. Therefore, we are able to live artfully and bountifully.

Furthermore, to understand the nature or a man's life, we should look both at the embodied performance now and also the potential; a simple philosophy of education to develop the aptitude. In a reciprocating viewpoint, to understand God is similar to a person's whole life experience. Many experiences are without evidences and we do it by faith; again the example of loving your children and helping their potentials realized. Potential is no evidence, nevertheless we respond to it. Without this cognition, the consequence is much different.

A realistic answer for the difference between a believer and an agnostic; according to a Rabbi- is the frequency of faith. Do you agree?

Please keep the enthusiasm- a sort of heat in this thread, as I have sensed a kind of transformation of EM cultural and spiritual environment towards more communal commitment and belonging.

I admit that it is extremely hard to dialogue by words about the experience of this topic; words fail us. On the other hand, it has shown a kind of inherent pursuit or yearning which perhaps will conquer the barrier of language.

Please tell me that you have good or bad experience in tradition mediated rationality- Judeo-Christian tradition part?