Occupied Palestine: the horror continues

Tomorrow is the sixth anniversary of the death of peace activist Rachel Corrie, crushed to death by a caterpillar tractor driven by the Israeli Defense Forces in occupied Palestine. She was trying to negotiate with the driver not to destroy the homes of Palestinians being subjected to collective punishment for demonstrating against the occupation (see our posts here, here, here). What makes this year's anniversary even more painful is fresh news: 37 year old Tristan Anderson from Oakland, California, a dedicated pacifist with the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), is on life-support after being shot in the face by the IDF with a high velocity tear gas canister. More via Siun at Firedoglake:

Each week, Palestinians and international supporters gather in the West Bank town of Ni'lin to hold a prayer service and protest the building of the Israeli Wall.


The Ni'lin demonstrations are an attempt to stop construction of the Wall which is cutting residents off from their property. ISM notes:

Residents in the village of Ni’lin have been demonstrating against the construction of the Apartheid Wall, deemed illegal by the International Court of Justice in 2004. Ni’lin will lose approximately 2500 dunums of agricultural land when the construction of the Wall is completed. Ni’lin was 57,000 dunums in 1948, reduced to 33,000 dunums in 1967, currently is 10,000 dunums and will be 7,500 dunums after the construction of the Wall. (Sium, Firedoglake)

When shot, Anderson was inside the village and far from any demonstration. He did not throw stones nor was he near anyone who could be considered threatening. While he wasn't shot by a bullet, the damage caused by these projectiles is well known to the locals. Here's what it can do and did to Tristan Anderson:

The impact of the projectile caused numerous condensed fractures to Anderson's forehead and right eye socket. During the operation, part of his right frontal lobe had to be removed, as it was penetrated by bone fragments. A brain fluid leakage was sealed using a tendon from his thigh, and both his right eye and skin suffered extensive damage. The long term scope of all of Tristan's injuries is yet unknown. It should also be noted that soldiers at the Ni'ilin checkpoint prevented the Red Crescent ambulance from taking Tristan directly to the hospital, forcing it to wait for approximately 15 minutes until an Israeli ICU ambulance (called by Israeli activists) arrived at scene, after which he was carried from one side of the checkpoint to the other. This, of course, is standard procedure - in the extremely rare cases where the army allows patients from the occupied territories to be transferred into Israel.

Interfering with medical services is a war crime, although it is a crime routinely committed by the IDF, as in this case. We don't hear about this in the US, nor do we hear much, if anything, about the non-violent resistance of the Palestinian people. Instead we hear only about the counter violence of the victimized. But the non-violent resistance is also real:

Why don’t the Palestinians adopt the tactics of Martin Luther King or Gandhi? And the answer is simply this—they do. For the last six years, they have mounted an ongoing campaign of civil resistance against Israel’s apartheid wall, which snakes through the West Bank, confiscating Palestinian farmland without compensation, destroying the life and livelihoods of whole villages, literally setting in concrete the fractured geometry of Israel’s incursions, her illegal settlements that eat away the integrity of any potential Palestinian state. In the spring of 2004, when the army was just beginning to bulldoze olive orchards and scrape land bare, the villagers of Mas’Ha set up a peace encampment on the wall’s route, inviting support from internationals and Israelis of good will. I’ve written elsewhere about what it was like to be there, encamped in one remaining grove under a full Passover moon, the despair of the bulldozers and the slim hope watching young Palestinians and Israelis sit together around a fire, sharing smokes and stories.

For six years, the movement has moved, from village to village, following the path of the wall. Six years of sparse and tiny victories—here and there, the route of the wall pushed back a few meters—but in Palestine, even the smallest victory stands out because it is so unusual, so different from the expected course of events. Like starving people who survive on crumbs, Palestinians nourish their determination to survive on even the smallest grains of success.

Mostly, I think, the movement survives because, in the face of horrific injustice, people need to do something. The vast majority of Palestinians do not want to strap on a suicide belt or pick up a gun. Contrary to all the stereotypes and racist assumptions, they don’t want to kill, or be killed, for that matter. But they want to do something.

So they come to the wall. Children carry signs, women sit in front of bulldozers, men chant slogans and pray. Supported by a few internationals and a few determined Israelis, mostly ignored by the world’s media, they face tear gas, rubber bullets, real bullets, arrests and beatings. And if the demonstrations have not yet stopped the wall nor won over the hearts of Israelis, they have at least given strength to the hearts of Palestinians and those who continue to hope against hope for some ultimate justice.(Starhawk)

This doesn't sound like much, but for these little victories, many have died:

Tristan, young though he seems to me, has had more of a life than Arafat Rateb Khawaje, who was shot in the back by Israeli forces at a demonstration in Ni’lin on December 28, 2008, when he was only twenty two. On the same day, Mohammed Khawaje, aged twenty, was shot in the head with live ammunition. Brain dead, he lingered for three days until he died in a Ramallah hospital. And they, so young, still had more life behind them than Yousef Amira, only seventeen, shot with rubber-coated still bullets on July 29, 2008. And yet they, too, seem ancient compared to Ahmed Mousa, only ten, shot in the forehead with live ammunition on July 29th, 2008.

And that is just the body count of one village, one year. I grieve for Tristan because he’s a friend. I know him, I have marched with him shoulder to shoulder, sat in meetings with him, shared laughter and gossip and disbelief at the amount of liquor those British activists could put away. I feel for him in a way I should feel, but can’t, for those who are just names on a list to me.

We don't know what difference, if any, the new administration will make. It is hard to think it could be worse, but too often my imagination has shown itself inadequate to the viciousness of this occupation. If you want to do something, you'll find many concrete suggestions and links to peace organizations promoting non-violent resistance to that viciousness at The Jewish Voice for Peace.

This is the actual event. It is horrifying:

But it happens every day.

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There's a lot in this piece that's just factually wrong or lacking in context. Rather than list them systematically I'll point out the very first one: You write above that Rachel Corrie "was trying to negotiate with the driver not to destroy the homes of Palestinians being subjected to collective punishment for demonstrating against the occupation." First, it isn't at all clear that the driver was even aware of Corrie's presence. One cannot dismiss this as simple Israeli propaganda. Multiple independent reporters who looked into the matter reach that conclusion. The most obvious is http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2003/09/death-rachel-corrie . Wanting peace doesn't require us to demonize a single side of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Posts like this one are not helpful.

The context is this: When someone, anyone resists Israel, they are a terrorist. When Israel kills a Palestinian, the Palestinian is a terrorist and Israel was "defending itself". When someone points out the hypocrisy of this, they are anti-semitic.

It will cost $900M to repair the damage the recent Israeli attacks on the West Bank caused. The US should pay the entire bill and deduct it from Israel's foreign aid package.

By A nonny mouse (not verified) on 15 Mar 2009 #permalink

Joshua: You claim there are things that are factually wrong, but you cite only one example, which is contested. You also miss the point (or only want to make your own point). Do you deny that interfering with medical services by an occupying power is a war crime? And that it happens routinely and with regularity? Do you think that calling viciousness "viciousness" is unwarranted? Or is it not possible for the IDF to be vicious in your world? What would you consider a "helpful" post on this subject? Silence about what happened to Tristan Anderson?

Revere, at best your claim about Rachel Corrie is extremely misleading to summarize in the way you do. You do agree to that, yes?

Your reply comment is almost as misleading as the original post. By your definition of interfering with medical services, pretty much every single army on the planet has done so. Insisting that someone switch to a secure ambulance since there is a history of use of emergency medical vehicles being used to smuggle in people and weapons into Israel is not by any reasonable stretch of the imagination a war crime. If you think that constitutes a war crime, I invite you to show me either a convention or a court case which backs that claim up. You might have something resembling a case if this had occurred while an ambulance was attempting to stay within the occupied territories. However, the ambulance in question was trying to cross into Israel proper, not occupied territory. This is not an attempt to defend the Israeli approach to dealing with medical emergencies that require people to enter Israel from either Gaza or the West Bank. There are both moral and pragmatic arguments both for and against their way of handling such issues. I think that the weight of the arguments is against the current system. But that doesn't make those actions war crimes.

Moreover, shooting tear gas containers into crowds is not "vicious" by any stretch of the imagination. Indeed, this is a weapon designed to be used for crowd control while minimizing fatalities. That's one reason for example that in many countries (such as the United States) tear gas and similar devices are acceptable for crowd control. They've resulted in deaths in the US as well. Look at for example the tragic case of Victoria Snelgrove who died in 2004 after getting caught in near riot conditions in Boston during the post World Series celebrations, was hit by a gas device and died. So if you had mentioned an example of vicious behavior then you'd have every right to call it vicious but you don't.

You then ask "Or is it not possible for the IDF to be vicious in your world?" I can't tell if that's meant as an ad hominem attack, a rhetorical flourish or both. But either way it is even less productive than your original post. Did I ever anywhere say anything that made you think that the IDF could not engage in vicious, immoral or unethical behavior? No. Did I even address your use of the word viciousness? Not that I can see. I said that your post above was woefully lacking in context and not helpful to the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Obviously, like any military it is possible for the IDF to engage in vicious, immoral or unethical behavior. And like almost all militaries, on occasion members have. And as with all militaries, that's not an excuse.

But pretending that this is all about the evil IDF and its "vicious" use of tear gas is about as helpful as if someone wrote a post pretending that the Palestinians were not engaging in any non-violent resistance but were all terrorists who wanted to kill women and children. And neither one gets anyone anywhere nearer to peace.

You ask what would be a helpful post on this subject? I can a few things. I'll list only first 5 that occur to me since this comment is already getting long. First, one obvious thing would be to emphasize the non-violent resistance movement and discuss why that hasn't gotten much press in the West and what can be done to change that situation. Second, one could discuss think about why non-violent resistance isn't having any substantial impact. Third one could discuss ways in which people can encourage further non-violent resistance rather than violent resistance. Fourth, one discuss ways in which to encourage the Israelis to make a clearer distinction between violent and non-violent protests. Fifth, one could discuss ways to encourage both the IDF and the protestors to more frequently carry video cameras so that when there are disputes over what exactly happened (as with Corrie and with a lesser extent Anderson) they can be more easily resolved. Any one of these five could easily fill a blog post. And you wouldn't even need to have two thirds of the post be simple uncritical mass quotation of others.

Joshua: Your suggestions are all reasonable, but I set out to inform my readers of what had happened to Tristan Anderson. You decided to highlight a contested account (at least you contest it) about how Rachel Corrie was killed. That another peace activist was killed trying to prevent the destruction of Palestinian homes is not contested by anyone I know of. That is a terrible tragedy and relevant to Tristan's.

Regarding interfering with routine medical services (and the record is well documented by Physicians for Human Rights - Israel), it is an obligation of the occupying army (and IDF is conducting a military occupation) stipulated by the Geneva Accords. You complain that I took you to task for something you didn't defend (vicious behavior by the IDF) but since you declined to be specific I had to guess what you were talking about in accusing me of being misleading. Of course whether something is "misleading" is relative to one's expectations or beliefs about what is the case. As for whether there is not viciousness on both sides, I have never pretended there wasn't, nor did I do so here. You inferred it. I explicitly mentioned the counter violence of the victimized, which is the way I see it. But we are talking about an Apartheid Wall in the territory of another country, so the burden is more on the IDF than those that resist. That there is any non-violent resistance is quite remarkable, and by accounts I trust, it is quite widespread. As for more constructive things to do, I thought it was constructive to give readers the linke to The Jewish Voice of Peace where there is much more information and things they can do -- constructively. I invite you to do so along with me.

The factually wrong in this article starts with "Occupied Palestine" in the headline. Israel is Palestine, the Jewish territory created by the British when they carved up the Ottoman Empire into separate territories for local groups. The Jewish Agency for Palestine changed the name when the occupation of Palestine ended in 1948 since the name Palestine was originally assigned by the Romans to make people forget the Jews had ever lived there; the Jews had revolted against Roman rule once too often. The West Bank has been uncontested Israeli territory since 1993 when it was officially ceded to Israel by Jordan. The Arab-supremacist terrorist organization that calls itself the Palestinians (founded as the Palestine Liberation Organization in 1964) is not related to the British Mandate of Palestine except as much as they were granted control of the refugee camps in the '70s and they indoctrinated the people with the same kinds of lies you tell here in order to make them hate the Jews.

It gets worse from there.

Thank you, Joshua Zelinsky and Tang, for bringing sanity and balance to bear in your comments on this rant.

Perhaps someone else could point out the scientific content that merits this hate-piece its place on ScienceBlogs. The notion that 'senior public health scientists and practitioners' can come up with this stuff is quite scary, really.

Thank you, revere(s), for not buying into the prevailing mistaken beliefs in America about Israel/Palestine. And thank you for writing such a balanced piece about something so gruesome that has been taking place for so long.

PS: To Tang, can the English claim Northern Germany today just because the Angles and the Saxons came from there, a long time ago? Can the Finns (and/or the Swedes) claim St. Petersburg?

By Peter Lund (not verified) on 16 Mar 2009 #permalink

It's a pity that it takes an American having part of his head taken off for peaceful Palestinian protest to get any attention at all.

Oh yes James, how right you are. Palestinian protests, peaceful and (ahem) otherwise, have such a low media profile.

No Revere, I think he is stating the facts and that is that if you put your ass in front of a moving vehicle that weighs 30000 pounds its going to ruin your day. There are really three schools of thought on this and I would go with the facts and that is that she didnt want to die, the driver wasnt trying to kill her, and that it was likely an unfortunate accident... of her own making.

Bulldozer moving, she is or isnt trying to stop the bulldozer from clearing brush or knocking the houses down. These things arent very fast, about a fast walk. The driver is in a very protected cage. So how did she die? Did she commit suicide by IDF?


She either threw herself under the thing, slipped and fell, or was run over intentionally or unintentionally or what have you. She took the hit. I put it in this context though by saying the simple fact that being in proximity to something she shouldnt she put herself into danger and finally death zone. I remember this incident and wondered how long it would be before someone started in on the very contentious debate how she died. Accounts indicate that the body was moved, different dozers pictured, and above all begs the question WTF was a civilian doing in a war zone?

"An official Israeli investigation concluded that her death was an accident. The driver, in the 10 foot-high bulldozer with its limited visual field, could not see Corrie, who was hidden by a mound of dirt or standing in a trench in the military security zone. The Israeli autopsy report determined that she had been killed by a blow to the head from debris probably dislodged by the bulldozer.

However, the ISM and other activists insisted the driver had seen Corrie, and intentionally killed her. They released two photographs for evidence. The first showed Corrie standing in full view of the bulldozer, shouting at the driver through a bullhorn she was holding. In the second photo, she lay crumpled on the ground in front of the bulldozer. Within hours of the photosâ release, observers noticed from the position of the sun that the two photos had been taken hours apart, and that the bulldozer in the first picture was not the same as the one in the second. Other questions surrounded her death: had she died on the spot, in the ambulance or in the hospital emergency room; did the Gazan doctor do all he could to save her? "

Did he see her? Did the driver kill her with extreme predjudice? Shit Revere, they know that every flippin' peacenik that gets killed gets extra added martyrdom by the media. News flash-Its called a military security zone and well only an idiot gets near these things when they are moving and standing in front, sides or what have you that you can get hurt....Even in the US. Hey I dont go down into the hood on Saturday night, wonder what happened to good common sense.

If they wanted to off her and anyone else, then why use a dozer? They could have brought the dozer under fire and called it an accident when she got hit. Besides what was the dozer doing? It was clearing out brush, homes and missile launchers sites that were being used against the Israelis. You guys keep trying to apply law enforcement to war situations and you are going to find broken bodies, property and inept world opinion every time. You have no concept of what goes on in these areas. I have seen guys eating MRE's get their necks knocked off by snipers, who mourns their loss? Certainly not anyone in the media. No all they do is just left wing it and inflate the numbers of dead by a factor of 30 and calls it genocide. We were always coached to move these idiots aside if there were situations like this. Maybe not enough people to do it there. Me, I would have dragged her peacenik ass outta there by the scruff of her neck so she didnt get hurt. But that would have been jackbooting in the eyes of the media... So get them outta there too. Its a war zone not a 9-5 job.

If you arent involved in a political process then you are in the middle of a military one Revere. Standing in front of my deuce and a half will get you run over if you are affecting my assigned mission. Yep, I would turn just about anyone into a casualty. They always have the good God given sense to stand out of the road. Wonder what her last thoughts were? Maybe that she shouldnt have been there?

I can tell you though that dozers are a lot cheaper than dropping a thousand pounder in there and cause one helluva lot less damage. Of course I for one would have opted for the latter rather than a dozer because launchers have to have people to operate them and you dont have those after an air strike. Makes them think twice. For me I would clear Gaza to a range that is outside of missile ranges or most of them. A DMZ if you would and leave the damned Gazans to eat each other. They do a good job of that too.

Its not about peace Revere, its the elimination of war there. As long as you have Damascus and Iran funding operations in and outside of those two countries and in particular not coming to a conclusion you will see this continue. Its the new hundred years war with no conclusion in sight. Sooner or later someone is going to get the bomb and use it. When they do, there will be a conclusion that we all will be responsible for.

I have seen the olive branch extended time and again by the Israelis, nothing from the other side. I have seen rocket attack after rocket attack as that branch was extended and now the US is about to fund Hamas operations to the tune of 980 million dollars for the "rebuilding" of Gaza. So the money they would have already been spending for rebuilding themselves is about to change direction. The US is going to pay for the rebuilding and they can use our tax dollars to buy guns and ammo. This will only serve to prolong the debate as to who is going to be the big dog now. Its not about a homeland, its about domination.

AS to the 980 million bucks, Thanks Hillary. This is going to expand military operations on the part of Hamas the minute the money arrives and GAZA is about to become a massive war zone. Its all about the payoffs and Yassir had a billion dollars tanked away in Swiss bank accounts as his people starved.

You dont need Rachel Corries Revere, you need attorneys to get this to end. Cut the money flow on both sides and the war will end. That is unless it gets down hitting each other with sticks.

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 16 Mar 2009 #permalink

And another thread about a specific narrow matter deteriorates into a general pissing match over the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Sigh...

A few brief remarks:

Revere, you'll get no disagreement from me that withholding medical treatment can be a war crime and that some behavior by the IDF has been deeply problematic in that regard (the most obvious being withholding medical care as an interrogation tactic. But again, that's not at all the sort of situation one has with Tristan Anderson. Insisting on an ambulance switch for security reasons is not in that category.

I'm not going to go into detail about your characterization of the situation except to note that terms like "Apartheid Wall" are both inaccurate and misleading. It is telling that in the petitions to the Israeli Supreme Court to have sections of the wall moved when it has gone through the middle of villages, the majority if not vast majority villages want the wall moved so that the entire village is on the Israeli side. I invite you to speculate as to why that might be the case.

Tang, I'm curious what term would you use for the people now residing in the West Bank and Gaza? You do agree that they call themselves Palestinians and generally self-identify as a distinct national and ethnic group using the term Palestinian yes?

Revere is correct to call the occupation vicious. And to do so does not demonize âone side,â or one people, but appropriately criticizes elements of and some events involving the IDF, and the overall effect of the occupation. The blog was constructive from the perspective of one who wants peace showing even the tiniest fraction of the cost; it provided important reference to Israeli, Jewish, Arab voices for peace.

Tang - thanks for the nauseating, and sadly trite, sliver of comic book history.

Josh's complaints are subtle: I'd say he recognizes in part the suffering resulting from the occupation but does not yet view it impartially, not having overcome his bias; almost faced the pain that Israel is overwhelmingly the perpetrator of gross injustice; until that happens Josh just does not like criticism that is not really gentle or âbalancedâ to the point that it serves propaganda of the status quo. Lose your political âreligion,â Josh, sparing your faith, culture and heritage. Of course the Palestinians would rather be on the Israeli side of the wall - they are human beings and they want to live in peace and prosper. Tell us Josh why the 1 million Palestinian-Arabs with Israeli passports rarely resort to violence - it astounds me. Apartheid wall is appropriate. Josh put away your political calculator become a human and get angry at all the suffering.

Thank you nologo for revealing that this is a health issue by presenting your own case of a sadly prevalent condition â DSM code pending - a neurological tribalism of selective memory, myopic empathy and moral acrobatics: on what planet does war, mal-nourishment, and occupation not have health consequences. Here is one â Israeli psychologists have noticed that children that witness their fathers humiliation at the hands of Israeli soldiers have a greater propensity for blowing themselves up in public.

Sorry, I give up. This topic brings the worst out in me and I have to apologize. My mother had a saying when she wanted to say I was not being smart, intelligent or wise âyour head buttons at the back.â I gathered it implied that if oneâs head buttoned at the back then their brain was not always present.

What happens in Israel and territories it occupies always garners a lot of attention, much more than it should if we adjust the events by the number of dead i.e. much more people have died in Columbia, now in Mexico, previously Algeria, Iraq yada yada. But what makes the deaths that occur in the Middle East at the hands of an army representing a democracy (Israel and the US) more interesting is the intellectual capital invested in justifying and rationalizing the most heinous actions and outcomes - this last Machiavellian massacre of a thousand plus in Gaza just prior to Obamaâs inauguration an awful example. Justified and rationalized by educated and rational people. Especially the Zionist zealots in the US. If it wasnât for the Israeli, Jewish, Arab peace activists, those that make no excuses for, are not apologists for, and are harshly critical of, the suffering and violence, Iâd have lost all faith in Humanity. Losing that faith in humanity results in the tribalism that causes it â itâs a vicious circle.

MRK: "I have seen the olive branch extended time and again by the Israelis, nothing from the other side. I have seen rocket attack after rocket attack as that branch was extended..."

Show me one peace plan extended by the Israelis, and I'll show you ten extended by the entirety of surrounding countries, mostly through UN votes (Democracy anyone?) only to be refused, delayed and denied by Israel and it's partner in arms traffic and the resulting war crimes, the US. Voting was usually unanimous except for the usual two "no" votes.

And it's our taxpaying dollars funding the vicious weapons used to escalate the violence, most recently the aggression against Gaza: white phosphorus, tungsten laced DIME bombs (designed to cause cancer in survivors as most victims suffer amputation), experimental poison gas (tested on live subjects in Gaza), and cop killer bullets... Documented testimony from various Doctors Without Borders.

Were the news reports wrong when stating that during the cease fire, rocket attacks were virtually eliminated, and the reason for the Sabbath day attack was discovery of a tunnel, not a rocket attack?

But the news here did not report of the increased Israeli harassment and violence on the West Bank during the cease fire with Gaza... and the people still have the temerity to demonstrate against the annexation wall, despite the obvious hardships. That they choose to demonstrate peacefully is commendable, even as they get shot, maimed and killed.

It's time for Israel to drop failed policy and try a different tack: choose to defend itself non-violently, and allow Democracy to blossom.

DM you are going to see a HUGE increase in violence in the near term. We are now going to fund the war operations of the PLO/Fatah/Hamas and the Israelis will respond in kind. NONE of the surrounding countries will acknowledge the right of Israel to exist. You cant vote in the UN and just think that someone in Memphis TN is going to buy it, or NYC. Nor should the Israelis.

But you will continue with the type of usual drivel that comes out about Israel and how they are the aggressors and pal that goes right back to the Yom Kippur war when Israel held their bacon and just about got their asses kicked for it.

UN established lines were violated not by the Israelis, but Syria, the PLO, Egypt, and Iraq. Israel had already agreed to give back Sinai and Gaza to be demilitarized. So the NRO was sending pictures to both sides and the Israelis didnt even bring their military up to speed with forward positionings of the supplies.

We had refused to issue them napalm because of our UN buddies. Escalating the war possibilities was the thought. They knew it, we knew it and 500,000 Arab troops massed on the borders with Israel. Both we and the Israelis had assurances from all of those surrounding countries with their olive branches that they would not attack. All the while tank kazerns loaded massed thousands upon thousands of troops on their borders. Brand new Ruskie stuff. Top of the line. Every day it got worse and worse and the only guy with enough brassies to be ready was one Richard M. Nixon. It was the supplies DM and not so much the war.

He ordered the massing of supplies even before the Arabs attacked so they could be in the air within literally minutes of the attacks. While the Israelis were in their holy day, a not so big of a surprise-surprise attack was launched and the Golan was the key. Attacked on all fronts, attacked without provocation and on a holy day. Keep giving those shitheads cover cowboy looks good only in the leftist camps.

Yeah DM, pee down my leg a bit more wave that olive branch and tell me how the Israelis should trust guys that are digging tunnels. Its whats in the tunnels that you have to fear and the avowed policy is that there will be reprisals if you dig. You probably werent aware that the tunnels are the same thing that the Norkos are doing in N. Korea under the DMZ. 3 and 400 feet down. And those tunnels would be for what?

Oh, I can go on. The first incursion into Lebanon yielded enough stuff in 1982 that the PLO had stored in those tunnels for a HUGE attack. Tanks even. T-72's still in cosmoline.Millions of rounds and thousands and thousands of AK-47's, anti-tank rounds, anti-tank mines, AND THEY HAD BEEN TRAINED BY THE GODDAMN RUSSIANS!

So, dont tell me how the UN is on anyones sides except for the French and Russians. They will sell to any and everyone. They only operate in their best interests and the Russians have been supplying the PLO/Hamas/Fatah or governments for years in the region and that would be against a country that is only 70 miles wide. Hmmm.....

Smaller guys generally dont act as agrgessors. That olive branch was contained in those chemical munitions that were sitting up in Syria on the rail launchers right? If those munitions had been deployed and launched year before last DM, I can tell you that the Israelis would have used a nuke on Syria, and Tehran. We might not have even been standing here to do this by now. Israel is a three nuke nation, one at the top, the center and the bottom. Figured out why Jordan isnt run rabid for the PLO lately. Might it have been that they were going to assassinate the King? Might it be that they fear the fallout?

The UN is manned by pure pussies. They cant guarantee the security of Israel, nor will they intervene if there is an incursion into Israeli land. The UN recognized Israel, and all of the member states are required to do so. So wonder why they keep on trying to knock them off? Good question, get back to me on it. Rachel Corrie standing in front of a tank... now that was as effective as what?

As for war crimes... Hey Revere, there isnt any war remember so that makes them enemy mine. TERRORISTS, SPIES AND SABOTEURS. These are terrorists making terrorist attacks inside of a military operations zone. Fuck 'em. Take them out and line them up against the wall and put a bullet into their skulls. Hey its that Geveva thing and its dead on permitted.

Terrorists may be shot immediately in a war zone because they are saboteurs and spies as they wear no uniform. Probably forgot that part didnt you? All countries that use Geneva recognize thatit is a firing squad offense. Qute frankly its a great deterrent. Sooner or later you'll run out of bullets or terrorists. Takes about a minute to make a bullet, about 16 years to grow a terrorist.

I think we have had this discussion before about the obvious need for Gitmo. Terrorists may be interrogated by all means needed... In a military situation. They have no rights. If they were captured in a military situation then that would make it military jurisdiction. But not in the good ole USA cause all them leftists think them sonsabitches got rights! If they were wearing the uniforms as they should be then they would be treated accordingly under the Conventions. But, alas you pick and choose when it suits. You cant have it both ways. When another building or worse comes down then you guys will figure it out.

While commendable the Rachel Corrie elevation to matrydom is just another leftist ideal in a war zone. Kind of like screwing for for chastity. Only a retard would believe that she would have any effect and she, in her own mind probably thought she was doing the right thing. That proved wrong cause she got dead from it. .

She got killed for making the wrong assessment of the situation. Even today, I hear anything that sounds like a tank tread clanking I dont stop until I see what it is. Makes me nervous. D8's/9's sound a lot like a T-56 but more so the T-72. The turbo's on them sound different though. But, I also have the sense to get out of its way when its in close proximity.

But, why intentionally roll over a dumbass peacenik..? It just causes a lot of paperwork and angst amongst the bleeding hearts. I would just tell them to leave and put them onto a plane heading home. Its very simple. I used to do it all the time. I would escort them in handcuffs if necessary to an appropriate departure point. They would sneak in, pack a few medical supplies and call it aid... In a war zone.

As for her case it was lucky that there was something to ship home to the US. A tank or dozer tread forgives nothing, including stupidity.

If there is no political solution over there then you must use the military until one is achieved. Cant even get most of them to sit down at the same table. The Arabs long ago figured out it was easier to fund the terrorists rather than to fund a military. So now we are going to be funding a war. 980 billion dollars worth and thats from our leftist Prez and Sec. of State. Frees up the other money and its a goddamn mistake of immense proportions. Rebuilding Gaza for WHAT? New military operations against Israel?

And so it goes.

FL-There you go trying to apply a peacetime operation to a military situation. Do I give one big rat shit what some shrink says about a kid whose nots so savory actions are getting his ass whipped? If the guy wasnt doing anything as a rule no one woujld even stop them. If a car or troops get attacked I would respond EXACTLY as the IDF does. . Fighting wars are crazy to begin with and well some kid wants to blow himself up?

You really need to be around when some friends get killed FL.... It makes a believer out of you fast. It also goes back to that tribal thing you assert and you are right. You assert it and then immediately forget what you just said trying insert humanity into the equation.

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 17 Mar 2009 #permalink

Uh, Randolph, in what universe do you think that war crimes can't occur without a declaration of war? Under that logic a military could just go through and massacre a civilian population and then say that because it wasn't a war there were no war crimes. That doesn't seem correct...

Look it up Joshua in the Geneva Conventions but here it is for the better part. ANYONE out of uniform in a declared or undeclared war that seeks protection using the Conventions MUST be in uniform of some kind. I have discussed this before in depth. The nations MUST register said uniforms with Geneva to receive prisoner of war status and treatment as such. Else you can cap the bastards on sight.Running around in local Arab garb doesnt qualify and everyone has to wear the same thing.

They do have to be armed, they do have to be acting in a threatening manner (e.g. farmer shooting wolves doesnt constitute a threat). You are allowed only to disarm them.

Witholding of medical treatment? Its also the attacker nations responsibility to provide aid to those that are injured as civilians IF its available. Sending a US citizen to a Palestinian hospital...What are you crazy? Nope, this is a semantics and attempt at politicizing something that in the real world is a non issue, issue. The guy had his face stove in, want a Palestinian doc to fix him up?

Tristan screwed up and got himself shot in the face with a moderately high velocity tear gas shell. It probably wasnt aimed at him in particular. Hell, I could never get the things to fly right. LIke zero accuracy beyond 30 feet. It kind of tumbles through the air after the first 100 feet and is designed to do that and knock people down. The canisters are pretty heavy and they are on fire literally. Question is whether the concentration of CS put his brain on the standby button or whether the stove in face did it. Probably both. 30 seconds is about all you can stand without being incapaciitated.

But, staging a protest in the middle of a military operations zone is about as dumb as it gets. But also look where both were from...Bastions of socialism/liberalism and idealism Seattle and Oakland. Nothing wrong with idealism but protesting in Palestine indicates that they were already brain dead on arrival anyway. It has ZERO effect on what they want to do. Hey, send Carter next time... I know that J. Carter getting crushed by a bulldozer or hit in the face with a canister wouldnt bother just too terribly many people that I know. Hell he wanted to go and negotiate with them.... On behalf of whom? Certainly not the American people.

But young, stupid and idealistic.... thats American youth for you.

Look, I hate it for their parents but you have to understand that anyone going to those places has a foot in the grave. Its not advisable and remember its the same bunch of looneys that blew up the goddamn UN headquarters in Baghdad. In some cases they WORK for the UN and call in fire missions against the Israelis. So the relationship is very tenuous. Those civilians under care too by the way is based upon availability and its not demand oriented. I caught a rubber bullet in the shoulder once and it knocked me clean over. You shoot someone in the head they are going to die from it.

But Josh, I do want you to understand something. I wish that none of this was necessary. We are moving towards the "conclusion" of the problems in the Middle East and soon. Peak oil (if there is such a thing), or really more of a goat rope to prevent any use of oil/coal here is going to put the pressure on over there. None of the technologies work and we know it. That means we keep on pumping and that means the Middle East.

This situation is going to tip over the second that the Israelis confirm that Iran who is stalling for time, builds a bomb. Pre-emptive attack on Teheran and I can only hope its an air strike, rather than an AGM-86B, a Popeye or something likea modded out Harpoon with a carrier rocket to get it there. A launch by a carrier missile to get the final missile to target wouldn't be detectable as a rule for more than a minute or two and certainly not a terrain following cruiser thereafter.

A continental missile launch would be detected immediately and there might be a capability to knock it down, but not a cruiser. So my bet is that Amahdinejad announces a nuke development and the Israelis ask what we are going to do about the nutball. If we do nothing, I think it will be a dark of the moon strike with several tactical nukes and that includes Teheran. It could also a super 707 with real live moderately high yield nukes doing a tour of Iraq with it acting as the mother ship refueling pod and bomber all in the same breathe. If that goes, then there will be hell to pay as the fallout will tag them in Russia, China, maybe Pakistan.

The conclusion to this crap is near I think and we might get dragged into it as part of the party. Its okay, we have the anointed one as the fearless leader. You know the guy who just dissed every veteran today...... I feel all better. If you have dissident friends, tell them DO NOT travel to Palestine or any war zone if they want to stay alive. Tell them much better to move within the system of governments around the world. Cant generally get shot doing a fund raiser for a liberal.... unless you are at an NRA rally.

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 17 Mar 2009 #permalink

Randolph, while combatants do need to have uniforms and a chain of command to gain the protections of the conventions, that doesn't make harming non-combatants not war crimes. That seems to be the issue here. I don't think anyone has much of an issue with Israel shooting militants.

Josh, that is the issue though. You have peaceniks intermingling with the on again off again combatants. This woman was as dumb as a box of rocks....Motivated to an ideal and that made her brave and dumb at the same time...A combination if you will that cannot mix and have a desired outcome. She probably thought that the dozer saw her, the driver probably thought that she would get out of the way, she may have slipped and fallen and the driver thought she was out of the way and drove on while she was down. The falling debris thing I dont buy at all, more like in a whip turn 30000 lbs was brought to bear on her skull. Doesnt work out. I caught a hit with my head on a 2 x 6 truck once with a helmet on and I was knocked back about four feet. Took me 20 minutes just to get to an upright position. Unprotected, probably would have sent me to the morgue.

The other guy? Well, like I said run for office rather than cover. I LIKE political resolutions to problems. Wheeling me and others out should never be used to bluster, only to produce a military end, that has a political goal.

You are about to see a billion dollars of our money funding Hamas just as it did under Carter. It will be either very quiet or very noisy. All the while Iran keeps stalling for time to build their bomb.

Iranians are pretty good folks most of them. Its the nutcases in charge that are sacking the treasury and moving it into banks in Doha and Switzerland that are the problem. They need another revolution before this gets out of hand. Bloodless coup would be nice. If not, get your sunglasses out cause its going to get very bright outside.

We all see what the logical conclusion is but wont face it. Iranians with a bomb isnt going to be tolerated by either Russia or the US, certainly not the Israelis. I see it going in a tit for tat scenario and then the big boys weigh in either militarily or politically to stop it. One nuke though going off in the Middle East would be absolutely devastating and redraw all sorts of political/economic/military lines. Peaceniks are just so much gravel under the wheels of those three. The governments could care less what they think as long as the oil is coming out of the ground. If it stops, the poo pooh hits the rotary grinder and gets slung everywhere.

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

So the question now is who is going to get Iran and end all of this racket? No money to Hamas/Fatah/PLO and its all over. They will actually have to get a job and work to feed their families instead of getting paid to fire rockets into Israel.

If they start delivery of these weps you can bet the Israelis are going to take their shiney hineys on in there and soon. I wouldnt wait from a military or political standpoint. Better to do it and knock the silly bastards back 20 years or so.

Then the Corries and Andersons of the world can move on to their next conflict to get involved in.


By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Randy: You know nothing about this topic. Button it up. Your ignorance is showing more plainly than usual.

An open discussion, with room for criticism of both sides, is long overdue. Check out www.codz.org

I see that Randy has either failed to read about the geopolitical problems with an attack against Iran or he has failed to understand them.

Fortress Iran is Virtually Impregnable to a Successful Invasion.

The core of this piece is an article by Stratfor's founder, George Friedman, complete with maps. Interested parties should read this through carefully.

I seriously doubt that the lunatics presently running Israel are going to take on the Iran project all by themselves. They'd fail to achieve even the unsatisfactory combination of operational success and strategic failure that is all they have salvaged from their recent invasion of the Gaza Strip.

Charles, yes I am fully aware of the suggestion that it would be hard to invade-But impregnable, hardly. We would only have to hit the Kharg island facilities and they would be on their knees in under a week. No fuel. I dont disagree with the initial invasion statement but if you delve into it a bit its easier than you think. I would use the military for a political goal rather than a military one. I would take out their air defenses and then go for the head of the chicken. Drop a full airborne division in, take the airport and then take the leadership and bring in the UN to oversee real elections.

We wouldnt fight a land battle and slog it up the highways as we did and really had to in Baghdad, we would cut a path and take Teheran and Qom via air. I do though think that its more than just easily attacked, in fact I know its already been done but no weapons were fired. Now who would do such a thing?

I leave that conjecture to you. ON the other hand, I think we should hit them ourselves and I mean damned soon as I have previously stated and let the chips fall where they may. If we do them conventionally then the local neighbors wont be as upset if the Israeli's go after them. The Israelis could muster a large cruise missile or a bomber attack as stated or use a bomber for an intermediate launch of a cruise missile or carry one straight in there violating one or two countries airspace in the process. But me, once that decision is made I wouldnt be looking back for permission.

Use of an MRBM would do it but it would be immediately detected and put both the Russians and Chinese and maybe Pakistani's on the equivalent to DEFCON 1. They respond, we respond to their response and in the middle of the night two planes go bumping against each other and next thing you know all hell breaks loose.



IMO, I would suggest that that ever nimble and never responsible organization the UN get serious for a change before a mushroom cloud appears. I would never invade Iran because it wouldnt be worth the costs, but it would take the head off the chicken and end a heck of a lot of problems. No funding for terrorists or destabilzation. Their people would be far better off for it.

Friedman's assessment is a bit outdated and the Israelis have more than one card up their sleeves. The use of said cards would entail all sorts of secondary threats to them, the EU/US. Even the Russians fear another Muslim state with a nuke. Bhutto's dad pushed that little project through and Dr. Khan was its Teller. Either way, if they get the bomb we are in very, very deep shit and with the Obamanation in charge it could end with a massive nuclear exchange on both sides of the Atlantic and Pacific. Hell it might no matter who was in there. No winners, only players.

G. Friedman runs STRATFOR but his bent is political science so he isnt a tactician or strategic planner. Its always the economics of a war. You take out their economic targets and war making capability and they simply go down. Dont really have to attack their air defenses. Just hit the power production and the oil shipping/refineries. Guys driving tanker trucks would be target number one. Cant fight anything but a guerilla war on donkey back if there is no fuel to fire up the old S-band radars. This is the same country that staged a huge protest because the govt. quit subsidizing their 32 cent a gallon fuel.

G. Friedman makes points that cant be ignored but they can be mitigated. Face it, once we went after Iran on a conventional scale we would sweep the country in about a month and a half. They could launch Scuds and Silkworms from hidden sites of course but effectively the country would be ours. Did it in 55 and we could do it again. We are not going to let the straits of Hormuz be blocked. French, Japanese, Chinese, and Russians would all be on board as would the Australians.

Blocked doesnt mean by ships... It means to transiting traffic by threat of nuke attack. The could charge anything they want for ships to pass and the world would pay it. Me, I dont like extortionists. Palestine is a side argument to something far more important and that is the oil. I am not the only one that holds that belief and Israel is a flanking nation to both Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia. All the others are inconsequential in the scheme of things.

Dangerous? I am prepared for nearly all events and anyone with half a brain had better get on the wagon for that one. We are heading for game day and soon.

Oh Revere I know plenty about the Ed Asners of the world and the Corries, and the Andersons. They are just name changes. Just as the nuns who were supposedly not doing a thing got raped and murdered in El Salvador several years ago. Seems that the peace loving nuns and the priests were running guns to N. Ireland. But its all about what appearances are and what media says they are, not facts.

Sorry as Hell that these people died but its about the proximity isnt it? If you go to a military operations area, a war zone, any thing that weighs a lot, shoots something or is capable of producing casualties and you get in its way you are likely going to come out in a pine box or body bag. This is a constant diatribe by me, but its reality and seems no one will acknowledge that single fact. If you arent there, you arent going to die from a tear gas canister, tank, dozer, or what have you. There isnt a soul in the occupied lands that wants to die, but they do. They dont have a choice but to be there and under the thumbs of Hamas and Fatah . You blame a lot on the Israeli's. Seems they are the ones that are just supposed to do WHAT? Leave and take the missiles. WWIII almost started a year ago last September and you missed it. There was going to be a WMD attack with all of the weps that Saddam and company said they didnt have on invasion day. Funny that the samples all had Iraqi markings on them. How very strange you would take the Palestinian side to this.

As for the peaceniks did and do and they paid for it. All I am saying is that they could have been far more effective somewhere else than sitting with a bull horn or supposedly minding their own business....in a war zone.

I am not defending the Israelis on this one, but like all things I require proof of what really happened and not some biased BS on either side of the argument. Those people put themselves there and they got killed for it...What a dumbassed waste.

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 19 Mar 2009 #permalink

The major horror related to Israel and the surrounding disputed regions is that a large number of Israel's neighbors fail to recognize Israel and keep attacking her. Fortunately Israel has found various reasonably effective methods of self defense. Many of these are more humane than the usual methods of open warfare. The barrier fences, often called "walls", are among the best. They save lives on both sides.

It is unfortunate that Mr. Anderson got hurt while participating in a riot aimed at destroying one of these fences. Even if he did not throw a single rock he was there to aid the violent protest. I applaud Israel for using humane methods such as tear gas to disperse the rioters. It is very regrettable that this man was accidentally hit and injured. But he put himself into an obviously dangerous situation and he has only himself to blame. I hope and pray that he recovers but I believe he is at fault for injecting himself into this situation.

Steve: You forget that it is Israel who has continually attacked its neighbors, who has killed more Palestinians by an order of magnitude and that is occupying someone else's land while denying them civil liberties. You live in a parallel universie where Israel is never wrong and Arabs are always wrong. Its assaults are not humane. They are vicious. Do you applaud Palestinians for using stones? Israel is a theocracy and racist. Unfortunately for Israel, virtually the entire world sees it for what it is. As a Jew myself, I am ashamed of Israel. As should you be. But you aren't.

Steve-Anderson isnt getting up from this one any more than the people who are already dead will. You dont take a hit like that and ever get up again.

Revere forgets that Israel lived within its borders established in 49 and didnt bother a soul until they were attacked that same year. They took land, they gave it back. Just a few years later they were again attacked, they took land... they gave it back. Its happened at least four times since 49. So many attacks by their neighbors, so many combatants to kill.

Since then it has been rocket attack after rocket attack and well, they are just supposed to take it I think under Revere's posture.

They moved into Lebanon in the 80's and of course took the Golan and Gaza. They left three years ago out of Lebanon... They were immediately attacked from .....Lebanon. Revere calls them vicious. No, Revere has never seen any full blown military operation that comes crushing into a place with the full power of a blitz. I have only been involved in one myself and its awesome. Combination of ground, air and naval forces. Your head hurts just from the constant noise. Thats vicious and its intent is to be just that. They are lucky they dont just shoot everyone they see.

I can tell you without any remorse or compunction that the Israelis are restrained. If someone attacked me I would render them nil. And we havent ever seen that because they keep coming back for more.

Recent history? The Syrians were loading CW onto the rail launchers to gaggle the Israeli Air Defenses and they just got lucky two years ago. Else, there would have been a nuclear attack on Damascus and Iran. They are building a wall for protection...Some call it a Berlin Wall. Its diferent. Its to keep people out and not in. Unrestrained Israelis would just kill them.. Havent seen that.

Palestinians toss rocks because they dont have guns and ammo. OTH the US is giving them 980 million dollars for the rebuilding of Gaza. Stand by for things to escalate as the "rebuilding" begins with our money. Our money is about to finance a huge war.

Revere keeps saying that its Israel that attacks its neighbors...pre-emptively. This is a policy that has been in effect since the Yom Kippur war in which they held themselves back and lost thousands of men as a result and almost the country. They informed all of their neighbors in a loud and vociferous way afterwards that they would no longer act in good faith as 500,000 soldiers build up on their borders.

Its entirely up to their neighbors not to fire rockets, build tunnels and hide tanks in them, and of course not to build CW's or use the ones from the Iraqi's against Israel. Its a policy that I agree with. Hitler was signing peacepapers as fast as he could turn out divisions in the lead up to WWII. Ever heard of Neville Chamberlain? How about Judge Judy? Dont pee down my leg and tell me its raining.

Peaceniks are a necessary evil but they are far more effective if they move inside of a political system rather than putting themselves into a combat zone. You can only be yelled at on the floor of the House or Senate, you can get dead mighty quick in a combat zone and for no particular reason either.

You are right Revere, the world does see Israel for what it is. A country constantly in a proactive defense mode with SOME theocrats in charge. What is Iran? You know, the guys that are thumbing their nose at that same world. Is that not a theocracy? Far more dangerous than Israel will ever be. If they get the bomb, they will use it. It will start a huge chain of events into action.

Revere, you forget those bodies of the Iranians and Chinese were just turned over to them after that little CW adventure two Septembers ago in the S. Syrian desert.

But, Isreael is racist and vicious. Yeah...Okay. I think they only do whats necessary to ensure their survival. At the cost of others sometimes. I am holding off sainthood until the money is right for these two who got killed, one for sure and one for all intents and purposes. Sorry, sympathy for people who put themselves into a situation isnt my thing. Dumb.

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 01 Apr 2009 #permalink

" A country constantly in a proactive defense mode with SOME theocrats in charge. What is Iran?"

There is some difference between proactive defense and over reacted defense. Time and implementation measure are to measure this difference. Basically, Randy, what you have said is pretty balanced. Perhaps, Revere has set a higher standard for Israel now and in the future; that is relevant to voice. But the reality has be dealt by from internally, suppose that Revere now lives in Israel, his voice will be different.

I as a Taiwanese have respected Israel a lot. For me. Taiwan-my home country is a stupid country, no proactive defense, Taiwanese merchants have put trillion dollars in China which has deployed thousand ballistic missiles facing Taiwan in rewards.

Economic benefits will blind people everywhere, even it is poison, and people will drink.

Randy is a merchant, sort of stupid sometimes. For his fuel sun-set business' benefits, he is willing to bury all stupendous idealism of his country, even give away his best leader, blind enough. Confucius also says, âThe rotten wood is not suitable for the sculpture."

But this time, Randy is reasonable. I can not understand why he is jealous for Obm for much- sign of impotency? :-)

Randy: Your version of history is just a compilation of AIPAC talking points. It bears no relation to real history. It happens it is a history I know fairly well. I didn't get it from Fox News. You know nothing about it. You just mouth the kind of crap that not even Israelis believe, only crazed Americans who don't know anything except what they hear on 30 second clips. I'm not even going to bother with this, although if you want to learn something of what happened you might try reading Israeli historian Benny Morris's book, 1948. You'd learn more of what happened. I disagree with some of Morris's views, but he is at least a real historian, not a Fox News mouthpiece. Oh, what's the use. Forget it.

Paiwan; You have no reason to know if Randy is balanced or not because you don't know the first thing about the subject.

And your opinion of that is just that Revere an opinion. Its steeped in a leftist look at history. You look more to the carnage caused when these people put themselves into harms way. Me, I would never target a civilian unless they got into my military operations area and were interfering. I have had them escorted out of an area before. Newsies too. I have put my boot up the tail of more than one of these peaceniks to get them out of the way before. I would have started with Ed Asners head though cause thats where his butt resided.

It would seem to me that none of this had to have happened if those countries that you seem to be backing had honored their commitment to the UN. The lands were designated by decree and most of the countries of the world have recognized Israel. And about those wars. There was no filing of requisite paperwork with the UN regarding notification of war. Therefore all of the attacks since the first were and have been sneak attacks if you want to get technical. You forgot that one too. It would seem that not pre-emptively attacking your neighbors got to be a bit costly in manpower and equipment so that would make you wrong there too. You see 1.5 million men massing on your borders then you have to assume what? Manchester United is playing?

You forgot Camp David as well where at least one of their enemies decided to beat their swords into plowshares. No war there, tense but no war. You also forgot that these same sacks of crap you want to defend in Palestine tried to topple the Jordanian King even as he gave them food and shelter. So, its pretty evident that your reasoning and how you get to it is selective. It is not selective when you are creating a defense zone, a DMZ if you will and there are two dead Americans as a result of ongoing operations to protect the security of Israel by creating it.

Being a Jew isnt a qualifications list to pontificate. I am 1/4th and they are pretty much doing what I would be doing if I wasnt totally in charge. If I was totally in charge I can tell you that Damascus would be laying in ruins now rather than Lebanon, and ground operations against Hamas would have concluded long ago because they would be dead. Yep, more carnage but I can assure you that the pause between wars would be much, much longer.

And its not Fox New History 101 Revere... Those military operations were conducted as part of a political goal by the Israelis. You can of course disagree but Israelis dont hijack planes, they dont show up in Germany and target civilian Olympic contestants. But I can tell you that if you screw with them, they WILL make sure you understand an eye for an eye.

Those that are standing afterwards get to write the history books and decide if it was worth it or not-Revere. Your view of history is that of the left. It carries no weight with me at all to hear the rant about Fox News or really any position that you take on it. Its like saying that I know nothing about public health all the time. I know quite a bit about it actually and I know it costs money, a lot of it. Your position about the Israelis is very uninformed about the real story of what happened. Fox? You also forgot they havent been around long enough to write or rewrite history.... 12 years. 5000 years of Israels history compressed into sound bites? Please Revere, you dishonor yourself. I read a book a week on all sorts of subjects unless they are long. Chinese and Israels history are loaded with all sorts of interpretation. But dang if the Art of War isnt also taught in the war colleges and required reading.

As for Morris... His books are used as an example in how media affects the outcomes of wars Revere. Interesting take and quite a few of his books are used as reference material. But that doesnt make Mo right. In fact, Morris made assertions about Ben Gurion that were totally false. Morris said that it was he who said they must expel the Arabs and take their lands. Just the opposite. But Mo is a leftist lib writer. It is very well written and its convincing. No one has ever been able to account for his references about Arab lands. BUT OTOH, it takes a lot of things that have happened and molds them to his use. Ouch. He takes things out of context and puts them to his use to "prove" his point. Kind of like EM opening up with Republican bash at every turn. In fact, he has been called on his points on many occasions in his writing history and contradicts himself in some places from book to book. Even the book critics take him to task on it because the positions dont square. But I laugh when non-combatants /leftists who study nothing but how media covers events interpret things in the world. I always learned to look at the underlying causes. Our news here is filtered, modified, spun by both sides. Even the events from the top. I have so far found 23 different accounts of Saint "too stoopid to be in a war zone, Rachael Corrie". Lets cut to it here. Screaming about military ops in a declared conflict zone isnt going to change one thing. The lefties jumped on it and said she was killed intentionally, martyrdom. More like dumb as a box of rocks is what it was. She killed herself. If a mortar attack had been launched against those dozers there wouldnt have been enough to bury. But the carnage continues because two Americans, two real dumb butts decided to try to impose their political whims against a regional superpower. And they did it by getting in front of a 30,000 pound piece of equipment. In this case it was a dozer and a tear gas canister. They lost their lives because they were stupid. In ten years there will be another half dozen of these kinds of cases and only a tear jerking media is going to notice and they will report it as though it was intentional every time. The coverage of these things are biased and you pump up the left side of the story.

Produce all facts Revere and then challenge the facts and I would challenge them with you. 23 accounts of Corries death Revere and they all start though with her getting getting onto a plane. Challenge them, then I might take you more seriously. Urps, off to watch Fox Business Channel to see who Obama has fired in the private sector today.

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 02 Apr 2009 #permalink

Randy: If you think it's OK for innocent people to die (and you know they will die) for political purposes, then it's OK to hijack a plane for political purposes. I say "no" to both. But that's the difference between conservatives and liberals. Liberals think moral principles apply to everyone, not just our enemies. As for Palestinians agreeing to a UN decree, like where was that? And since, has Israel obeyed UN decrees? Since you don't care about the UN it's irrelevant. You also don't care about history unless it's the history that paints the target around the arrow you've shot. Are Israeli settlements legal? Are they a provocation? Do they continue to occupy land that isn't theirs, by anyone's reckoning? Have they killed more Palestinians than the other way around by an order of magnitude? What would you say if I said that any US soldier killed in Afghanistan deserved it because they got on a plane and went there of their own free will so why should we care? I'd never say something like that. Why should you?

Would that include all those liberals who dont pay their taxes that Obama nominated? Seems that none of them have lately. That the decree is from the UN, the one that seats the countries of the world. Everyone else recognized them except for the Arab states. Corrie and Anderson were not innocents. They were stupid and there will be more case like them. Hard for you to paint a knucklehead with a bullhorn with the same brush as someone who gets onto a plane with the intent of killing as many people as possible Revere. Liberals have no morals as rule Revere. They are the do as I say and not as I do folks. You know, Bill, Hillary, Al, Tim, Barack and quite a few others like Barney and Frank Raines. Amazing in these days and times you can talk about morals. Fact is that the group you are supporting in this little discussion have a nice long hard history of blowing up school buses. At least the Israelis did it to military convoys-Haganah.

The settlements is an occupied land invention. The UN is irrelevant and corrupt Revere and its just another place for my tax money to go to. Its not a world peace organization, no its a world conflict development organization. The Israelis and the occupied lands? If you can hold it, its yours. Was it a political plan or a military one that yielded Jerusalem? Dont know but they got it and its paid for with the blood of thousands on both sides. By my reckoning, I would say its bought and paid for about 50,000 times over. It also increases the distances between available targets and the launchers... But you wouldnt catch that. You understand it, but you also keep trying to apply laws to a war. The Palestinians need a homeland and need to quit trying to take over Israel. I for one cant understand why they would even keep trying. They already control Lebanon, why Israel?

Are you going to try to tell this reader audience that the Israelis who have been in four major wars with their enemies who massed their troops on their borders and attacked Israel without provocation that they are the injured ones? Please.... Dont tell me that some shithead Palestinians that got caught with enough material in Lebanon to take the US on in the 80's is injured. Who blew up the Marine barracks Revere? Who took hostages? Who shot at the guys in the blue beanies? Well for my way of thinking which disturbs you so much is that we should have just pummeled the hell out of them. I think we should now. Carnage ended which what we all want. This on again off again crap is useless. Release the dogs of war and be done with it. If Damascus wants to support terrorism, then bomb them off the face of the planet. No survivors either. If it doesnt get done then I want you to remember this day and its the one where I said that someone will use a nuke to settle the ages old score. And then you will say the horror of it all. You get to see broken bodies in the VA. I got to seem being broken. Left a lot more on the field of battle than you got to see.

We support Israel, they attack Israel. For ten years there were few attacks on Israel and things were quiet... Guess you forgot that Clinton payoff with our tax money to Yassir that worked out so well for everyone. Kind of like the one we have now. But we have Obama who likely would not ride to the aid of Israel if they start to get their butts kicked this time around because of his background and leftist leanings. Its in his favor to have it toppled and provide no support to them. Well, lets just see what happens say in under a year. Weakened US means adventurism abroad. Will the next Corrie and Anderson please stand up and take your place in history as a JAD?

Just another dumbass.

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 02 Apr 2009 #permalink

Atta Girl Hillary- If they do this then they had automatically as part of it demand that the Palestinians cease all military operations and get those bozos of theirs under control. If they dont and they are a state under the Geneva and UN charter, Israel could then occupy and kill them all if they are attacked.

Real good Hil. Yet another hostile nation on their borders.


By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 02 Apr 2009 #permalink

Great article. Indeed many innocent die , trying to save Palestine. For those fools commenting above, about term "occupied {Palestine" being false... Sharon called it an occupation, your commandments tell you to call it an occupation. It is an occupation by definition. When you come on another person`s land and you take it by force and you make Natives die or leave: it is not only an occupation, but a bloody one too . Arguing for the sake of it, is pathetic.
Revere, thanks for your article.

There is no patient in the video. The Palestinians have been caught numerous times faking videos.

IDF soldiers have told me that at the "non-violent" protests they have personally seen, there were Palestinians in the background taking potshots with rifles. This was quite some time ago, but it impacts today's policies.

One of the purposes of the ISM is to get their people hurt. They admit this; They believe that it's good propaganda for their side.

You understand the Middle East about as well as a typical IDF soldier understands immunology.

This blog makes me sick. Forget Fox news, open up a newspaper and you'll read about the constant rocket attacks. Make a blog about that.

"a dedicated pacifist with the International Solidarity Movement (ISM)"... that says enough right there. Anderson sounds like an unemployed waste of oxygen with no desire to earn a living.

The United States, with its health care system and economic troubles, is in shambles and Mr Anderson from California is on the frontlines in Palestine trying to make a difference in a conflict that has been going on for fifty years.