This is the internet. Like the newspaper, you shouldn't automatically believe everything you read on it, and when it comes to some of the more outlandish stuff, most people don't. But there are a lot of sites that appear quite legitimate, and maybe for some of the material on them they are fine, but sometimes mixed in is some real dangerous stuff. One genre we know is influential and a major source of information is what is sometimes called a "Mommy Blog," blogs or websites that cater to the insatiable hunger for reliable information of newly pregnant women or new moms. We wouldn't have survived as a species if we didn't obsess over the welfare of the next generation, so our anxiety about our children, especially in their most dependent states as babies, is hardwired into our brains. When my daughter was pregnant she spent countless hours reading these blogs to cope with her natural and understandable anxiety. Sometimes she asked me if something was true before acting on it and sometimes not. After all, her dad is a special kind of information source, although I'm not sure what kind she thinks I am. All I know is she asks me a lot of questions.
But this post isn't about her and what seems to me the craziness of her generation of mothers. That craziness might make me sigh, but it's the sigh of one generation of parents about another generation. The link I got yesterday from one of my former graduate students made my head explode. My student has a doctorate and a much better than average set of brains, so she knew that what she was reading was totally false (which is why she sent it to me). The bad part was that she is a new mom herself and she found the link on the website of the lactation consultant (an RN) recommended by her pediatrician. The site linked by the lactation consultant is called Baby Center Community and it invites you to register and "Meet other parents. Share your photos. Get helpful advice." So it is several steps removed from the pediatrician. Once to the lactation consultant's site, then a link on that site to Baby Center Community, then a posting on that site by one of the registered users, supposedly another mom. All this is pretty normal. Mom's have been giving each other advice as their kids played in the playground since there were mom's and playgrounds. But the internet can let moms who have never met give each other advice and it can be hard to evaluate how sane or crazy the other person is. With that proviso, here is some of the "helpful advice" about "vaccines, pregnancy & young children" from one mom to another in the form of answers to 6 common questions. What I read left me aghast. I couldn't believe what I was reading. Literally. I had to read it twice to make sure I'd read it right the first time.
The poster, LilyEli, judging from her profile, has a special interest in vaccinations, and I suspect she is a part of the anti-vaxer movement, although you wouldn't know it from her post (dated August 16), which only claims to be passing on information provided by the government:
I spoke with a Federal HHS Zone Director last week. For those who are unfamiliar with the HHS, this is the department that oversees everything medical in the country, from medicare to the CDC, and then some. They are also in charge of all vaccines and infectious trends so, if you want to know what the vaccine plans are for the country, these are the people to contact.
I had some tough questions for this office and, to their credit, they were very forthcoming in their information, although they were a bit upset with the line of some of my less pleasant questions . . . (post by LiliEli at Baby Center Community)
So here's what LiliEli claimed her local HHS contact told her in response to her questions:
- Does the H1N1 vaccine contain the preservative thimerosal?
Yes, it does. As do the "regular", seasonal flu vaccines.
LiliEli goes on to say that while the adverse effects of thimerosol have been hotly debated, it is "strongly associated" with the ten fold rise in autism and she continues with numerous misstatements I won't even bother with because thimerosol-free flu vaccine is available for pregnant women and infants in the US. My former student got one last year.
- Does the H1N1 contain adjuvants?
US licensed flu vaccines do not contain adjuvants. Some of us think adjuvants would be good because it would allow more people in the world to be vaccinated, but the US has decided not to adjuvant. If LiliEli says HHS told her they were adjuvanted, she is lying.
- Are there any other agents in the H1N1 vaccine that I should be concerned about?
Yes. The H1N1 vaccine will contain live H5N1 virus. This means that all those injected will be intentionally infected with H5N1.
LiliEli goes on to explain this is standard practice in the world of vaccines. The sheer mendacity of this left me with my jaw hanging open. There is not a trace of H5N1 viral antigen in the vaccine, nor would it serve any conceivable purpose. Moreover vaccines used on children will be inactivated vaccines. There's not even any H1N1 virus in the vaccine. [It has been pointed out to me in the comments that I am in error here. Live virus FluMist can be used in people between the ages of 2 and 50. I regret the error. CDC link here.] This woman does not give any evidence of being an idiot. She knows exactly what she is doing. She is evil.
- How dangerous is the H1N1 virus?
At present, the H1N1 virus is no more dangerous than the seasonal flu. It is consistently responding to antivirals, such as Tamaflu [sic]. Several months ago, the HHS was recommending that those infected stay out of the public for 14 days. The outbreak in New York, however, taught them that, only 24 hours after all fever has subsided, there is zero risk of spreading infection.
LiliEli goes on to recommend high dose vitamin for the mom as vastly safer than vaccine (no evidence given, of course) and breast feeding because your baby will "literally "drink in" your entire immune system history, which provides them with an entire lifetime of environmental, pathogen encounter antibodies from the start." Passive immunity for some things lasts for a few months. After that you're on your own, unless you wanted to nurse into adulthood and old age (but by then your mother will not be lactating I would think). By all means we should encourage breastfeeding. Breast fed babies appear to have fewer infections. But we shouldn't misinform people.
- If I and/or my child do get the H1N1 vaccine and something goes wrong, can I seek injury compensation?
No. The HHS has already signed a blanket protection agreement with the manufacturers of all H1N1 vaccines. The only way that any citizen can gain compensation is to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that the manufacturer acted with criminal intent to do intentional harm to the public.
This has the virtue of at least being partially true. The immunity was provided by Congress, not HHS in an agreement with the drug industry. I think it's a bad idea. Blame corrupt politicians, the ones we elect.
- Are there statistics available about H1N1 vaccine safety?
No. The HHS department is not requiring the manufacturers to provide any testing data, as they have declared manufacture under the "national security" heading. Furthermore, the manufacturers will not be required to make this information available to the public. They may do so voluntarilly, but this will not be mandated.
Manufacturers must still do clinical trials. Those trials are fast tracked because this vaccine just represents a strain change. All the data are published or available.
The last couple of points are relatively minor, although typical. But the first points are deliberate tactics of the darker corners of the anti-vaccination movement. It infuriates me and makes me fear for those babies whose moms will leave them at risk from diseases that can cripple and kill but are entirely preventable. When I was young many my age were crippled and did die from vaccine preventable diseases.
The value of the internet so far outweighs the adverse events, I'll even resignedly tolerate the LiliElis. Sort of like a vaccine.
Update 10/7/09, morning(: My former student reported the post as an abuse (many sites/forums have such a facility) and it was quickly taken down, so you won't be able to see some of the really over the top things I didn't mention. This is something you might try when you see things like this. It doesn't always work, but a responsible site will take action.
Update 2; I am informed the original is on the site in multiple forms under other headings. For the moment you can still see it here. Let's hope that doesn't last long.
- Log in to post comments
Emails of similar character have been circulating in my community mostly via facebook and mommy email lists. I and some of my friends have been trying to keep up, but it isn't easy.
How many flu deaths before this email becomes, legally, shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre? Isn't this already actionable?
"The value of the internet so far outweighs the adverse events,"
Amen.
You can lead a man to information, but you can't make him think......like other 'belief systems' people are gonna believe what they want to believe and find others and sources to reenforce those beliefs. Darwin put lipstick on it 150 years ago. What would we do without the Darwin Awards?.....
Pass me the koolaid.
I wonder what it is about the fact that they have small children that makes them insane. I suppose it is a combination of wacky hormones plus the fact they were probably nuts to begin with.
I emailed baby center last night under the "report abuse" link. The post seems to be gone now...
I really believe(bad choice of words) that this is on a par with religion,no matter what evidence is offered these people still 'have faith' in whatever quackery is their favourite flavour. I still cannot get over the numbers of health care pros who say they won't be vaccinated,as if this quasi religious meme/virus has got to even the usually more sensible areas of society.
I am astonished, saddened, worried about intelligent, thoughtful people I know and love who "leave their brains outside" when it comes to vaccines. Is is fear of pain? Fear of the unknown, or lack of knowledge and understanding? Is is lemming behavior? As a child, I had every "childhood disease" and even some of the less common diseases that now are preventable. I remember all too well suffering and, at times, wishing the suffering to end with death. No child today should go through what I did if it can be prevented by immunization.
@4: Katharine, Yes, having small children makes you insane. Being pregnant makes you obsessive, having a newborn makes you absolutely nuts. I'm a very even-keel type, and I lost it completely. I even got (briefly) concerned about the safety of his vax for a bit. It's the simple idea of anything getting near that baby that isn't you, anything touching them that you didn't wash yourself, anyone holding them that you did not hand pick. With a first born, it's a thousand times worse. Take into account also the trend for educated women to have their first child late (and therefore struggle to have them at all) and you have a smart, savvy, insane wolverine casting an amazingly sharp eye at those syringes and their contents.
Chances are, these very bright ladies are doing their own 'research' as well as they know how, and are rightly skeptical of some information. The problem is the sales pitch. The pro-vax crowd is just starting to catch up with good info, presentation and pitch and we'd do well to encourage people to visit sites like the Every Child by 2 campaign website. Most of it is government websites, which may have very accurate information, but is usually a bit dumbed down for the masses, but is insulting for someone with an advanced degree, and can even feel a bit patronizing.
Sorry about the length here, but yes, moms are a little nuts. Thank goodness, too or we wouldn't be here!
I sort of expected some of this and I am saddened/concerned about the misinformation by LilyEli.
I just wish people were not so extreme in their reaction as well ("suffering and death"? "shouting fire"?). A rational and scientific perspective knows the benefits of vaccines and the risks of flu and puts them in context/balance.
You can be vaccinated and still get the ever-changing flu strains. You might get real sick; it might be mild (it is possible that there are nutritional things or behavioral changes you could do that would have greater net benefit than a vaccine; but vaccines are easy so I am not arguing against them).
Also, if you choose not to get the vaccine you may not get sick. So, acting like the vaccines do not work is not necessarily a directly harmful act (it is wrong, misinformed, etc. but not the shrill evil that other commenters make it). It is about changing probability and vaccines undoubtedly help your odds. But we are constantly misinformed by pharmaceutical companies and medical professionals about the risks and benefits of their products and procedures. "Crazy Misinformed Mistrust" is a side effect of enless hype and marketing.
This LilyEli post was bad and harmful. I appreciate the debunking by "revere" and the appropriate concern. I suppose this post and the following would be more appropriate elsewhere (I have seen way too much self-serving bullying and not enough educating in other places I would rather not comment in on ScienceBlogs).
I just think that the medical community would rather bully minor players like LilyEli than the greater damage in the excesses of Eli Lilly (I could not resist that reversal). Also, the bullying and arrogance, whether you want to admit it or not create the environment in which LilyEli thrives. Sure, LilyEli, is willfully misleading but not all the people reading her post are and you will help more people with thoughtful perspective than paternalistic commands that also distort the truth.
There's a great deal of misinformation going around about this vaccine. In the last week, 2 friends have been told by their pediatricians to NOT allow their kids to get the H1N1 shot because it hasn't been tested enough and because of what happened the last time there was a "swine flu" vaccination campaign. I've tried to educate them but to no avail, and one of these kids who won't be vaxed has severe asthma.
Welcome to the Whac-A-Mole world of trying to refute anti-vaccine nonsense.
By the way, if you really want horrific mommy discussion groups spouting dangerous anti-vaccine advice, HIV/AIDS denialism, and outright quackery, check out the discussion boards on Mothering.com.
Here's a tip for new mothers: Never, EVER get your advice from a forum.
That said, in today's world of journalism, even the journalists aren't right a good percentage of the time. You really, really have to take what you read with a grain of salt. Better yet, find sites that you trust and stick with them.
I admit to being part of this culture of craziness, though I think I'm starting to come out of it. I think so many things have changed since our mothers raised us -- car seats, back to sleep, breastfeeding, etc -- that we don't trust our mothers or our own instincts like we should. But except for a few major issues, our own moms were right 99 percent of the time.
I'm a professional parenting blogger, which means I get paid to write about parenting issues on the internet. There are two rules good parenting bloggers never break:
1) NEVER give advice.
2) ALWAYS check your facts.
Finally, Lily's statements aren't too far off what Dr. Bob Sears has to say. If you really want steam to come out of your ears, check out his opinions on the h1n1 vaccine.
Someone (or several someones) is leaving flyers on cars at the local schools and retail outlets that contain dire warnings about the horrible, horrible things the gummint is planning to do to us all via the H1N1 vaccine...
I suppose there are those who consider the CDC an unreliable source of information, but how much more reliable is an anonymous flyer-distributor?
The only reliable sources ARE anonymous! Anyone who dares to openly tell the truth will be suppressed by the CDC action teams!
reported :)
yes @11 Orac - whack a mole indeed.
Orac, Catherina et al.: Vaccines and anti-vax aren't my main interest, not because they aren't important, but because I have other things on my priority list. I am trying to be careful here in not being like the worker who gets his sleeve caught in machinery and gets dragged into it. You guys are doing the heavy lifting on the anti-vaxer front and you don't need me. I only get involved when it gets into something that overlaps with one of my other interests. So I won't be doing much whack-a-mole playing here. I've got all I can handle with the flu deniers.
Revere, like you I fervently believe in community vaccination. Like you, I believe this LiliEli character is acting in a reprehensible manner targeting a vulnerable demographic with utter garbage. I've not been able to link into the original posting, but have read through excerpts of the post with amused horror.
I know you are busy but... You have written, "Moreover vaccines used on children will be inactivated vaccines. There's not even any [live] H1N1 virus in the vaccine..." Hey Revere, I'm a little surprised by your language -- yeah, children under 24 months are not approved to take LAIV-based vaccines. But from the ages of 2 upwards, live swine flu vaccines will be used on American kids...
Look Revere, I'm not happy about this. And I told my family doctor so earlier today...
Wednesday, October 7, 2009
"Howdy,
I'd like to make an appointment with Dr Ric Chaney re: swine flu vaccination. I'd like to publicly state I have no problems signing the Federal [Australian] government's "consent and liability waiver" for CSL's Panvax. Panvax is an inactivated antigen-based injectable vaccine (see attached email). From a technical perspective, this type of vaccine is far safer than LAIV-based vaccines.
I've been feverishly writing and posting on North American public health blogs about the dangers of LAIV-based vaccines..."
Info for those recently vaccinated with MedImmune's LAIV-based swine flu vaccine -- the duration of transmission risk to others from vacinees ie. live vaccine virus replication and shedding extends between 7-21 days.
Excerpt from MedImmune website -- "Influenza A (H1N1) Information: "Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine Live, Intranasal is a vaccine approved for the prevention influenza disease caused by pandemic (H1N1) 2009 virus in children, adolescents and adults 2-49 years of age..."
Excerpt from FDA pdf re: MedImmune's Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine Live, Intranasal: "[The swine flu and seasonal FluMist vaccines] are manufactured by the same process. Information in this section is based on studies conducted with FluMist...
Nursing Mothers: It is not known whether Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine Live, Intranasal or FluMist is excreted in human milk. Therefore, as some viruses are excreted in human milk and additionally, because of the possibility of shedding of vaccine virus and the close proximity of a nursing infant and mother, caution should be exercised..."
Primary Immune Tribune (E-newsletter of the Immune Deficiency Foundation), Dec 2006, Volume 1, Issue 3. http://www.imakenews.com/idf/e_article000704177.cfm?x=b11,0,w
Excerpt: "Healthcare workers who receive FluMist [and/or LAIV-based swine flu vaccines] may also present a possible way for a person with a primary immune deficiency disease to become infected with the flu vaccine strains. Although there is no data about transmission of the live vaccine virus from vacinees to immune compromised contacts and subsequent development of disease, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have stated that the inactivated vaccine (flu shot) is preferred over live, intranasal influenza vaccine (FluMist) for physicians, nurses, family members, or anyone else coming in close contact with anyone with a weakened immune system..."
Revere, you're in error about the vaccine used for kids. In my county we so far have only 14,100 doses of pandemic vaccine, all of which are FluMist (live attenuated virus). Due to the small quantity these are being reserved for children between 2 and 10 years of age and will be administered in elementary schools starting next week.
This makes sense for a variety of reasons. FluMist is thought to be most effective in little kids because they don't already possess cross-reactive flu antibodies that can keep the vaccine from getting a firm foothold.
I imagine there is also an outside chance that any particularly flu-vulnerable kid who wasn't vaccinated might pick up the vaccine strain from his or her fellows and thus be protected on the sly (though kids with ordinary immune systems likely wouldn't).
Er, but of course there's no H5N1 in any of the vaccines (though I imagine any vaccine containing N1 has an outside chance of reducing severity of any HxN1 infection).
To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as an "HHS Zone Director" -- I work for the Department of Health and Human Services.
The closest I can come to finding anything in HHS's labyrinthine structure that might be considered a "zone director" is a "Regional Health Administrator" in the Public Health Service -- and they would be getting their info from CDC and the FDA. (Note: HHS has "Regions" not "Zones" -- the Midwest is Region 5.)
If someone on a forum says they got their information from HHS, ask them to give you the link to the reference they're citing. Better yet, go to hhs.gov and use the search engine on the site.
This post is full of basic factual inaccuracies as well as completely unsubstantiated claims. The one source that is mentioned, the shadowy "HHS Zone Director" is a nonexistent position. You can read a thorough, well-informed discussion of this topic here:
http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/2009/10/really_bad_advice_from_a_…
Whoa! I tried to post that comment on the "Baby Center" page and it ended up here....weird.
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/NEJMoa0907650?query=TOC
Lisa, reading through obscure papers one would think so about the N1 component. In the last couple of weeks looking at even more obscure papers it would appear that strep kills off the H(x)N(x) from assimilation or by production of hydrogen peroxide. Then you are saddled with bilateral bacterial pneumonia as a result.
Now first I want to assert that Revere is right. There are shit load of viruses out and other bugs that arent getting their just rewards by vaccinations. Scuse me but if the bug were H5N1 and it was EUA'd for fifteen minutes ahead of me getting their I would be taking it because of the fatalities it would be causing at 63.3% of those who got it.
I also have family who got whacked in the last really great pandemic and that was the big polio outbreak in the mid 50's. Wouldnt you take a polio shot? How about smallpox vaccination? If you need to pause to ask yourself then you are too stupid to be reading this.
On the other hand...safer than sorry for most. If you take the vaccine and it remains the same potato then you will be afforded "some" protection. The last sheet I saw from CDC said after about 50 or so the titer responses were in a state of decline by age numbers. Okay, so not everyone will have a response other than ouch when they jam you with a needle. But LillyEli is full of crap. Telling people they should get it is one thing. Telling them not to is pure horseshit.
Compensation? Well lets face the fact that if you are standing there then you might be compensated. It took Congress ten years to fund it last time around, so no wonder there is such a bad taste in their mouths. Indeed, it was a Republican Congress that didnt fund it. I are one of those and I was pissed then, I am pissed now.
LillyEli is about half baked and she was/is pushing an agenda. I am a cup that is half full on this one. 98.5% chance that you will get it and recover. On the other hand those that get it and go severe, the survival rate isnt so hot or the effects on your body are so severe that you will be basically invalided.
The other problem is that all they can say is that it increases your titer levels to "protection" heights. So far no studies were done to see if it even prevented it, only to see if your titer levels were high enough to produce a protection. Remember, seasonal flu vax returns you to work one day earlier than if you hadnt taken it. So what is it for this stuff?
This is the reason the government needs to get up off their asses and first quit hiding the real numbers to prevent "panic" and acknowledge that the old bassurds like me dont panic too easily. Then, tell us all there is to know about the vax other than the CDC and dont let those idiots Sebillius and Napolitano put the information out...they are party hacks. Let that Navy chick whats her name at CDC answer ALL of the questions and indeed tell us about the risks.
The effects of not doing this are going to really screw things up if and when there are reactions, and worse when some really big shit kicker like H5N1 rounds the bend aiming at us. Withholding of information is just that and we REALLY need a steady hand out there pumping more than the party line right now. Participation isnt so hot amongst the preggers right now and that for sure is going to result in fetal deaths. For me personally... No, I wont take it. Mainly because I got it and it passed for me in two days from a light congestion and a raunchy but in and out headache. I am a bit older, but not out in the pasture yet. My college and high schoolers were both taken down and I got the honors of going and picking one of them up from grad school and riding back with her. Kind of like being the bed cleaner in an H5N1 ward with no PPE. I started feeling bad two days later. Both were tested and positive. So no question whether I got it.
Lets not get into a weighing the risks with the pregnant women.
Preggers? You ladies have to really decide because if you get it then it appears it could kill you and the baby too. Young children? Again weighing it, I would say yes as my sideline info stream reports two pediatric fatalities OF THE KIDS OF PARENTS WE KNOW! Thats close to home and to the point. High Schoolers seem to be the break point on deaths for the better part so its an evaluation at that point. I doubt that I would have given it to either of my kids but its based in information and not some twit. Melanie used to rail against people who didnt cite here and to her journalist credit she was right. The link above relates to adjuvants in the vaccine. Specifically Thimerosal. Sorry, most of that has been booted out long ago.
Here is where the specifics are on the vax... read the goddamn thing and understand this is official position and if its wrong, then Revere's ref about clear malicious intent or harm would be caused. If the shit is in there and they are lying then they will have to add another trillion or two to the budget to pay for the claims.
http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/vaccine_safety_qa.htm
Mostly though, whatever you do, don't pay attention to LiilyEli or you might end up with a dead kid, a dead fetus, and a dead mom and all because you listened to horse shit.
You still get to make the decision on your own except in possibly Massachussetts. No place so far is forcing it except New York. Two words fix that..."I quit". Just as three other words might give you protection, "I will" and "OUCH" ... ouch to be traded out with someone saying gesundheit after you sneeze from the LAIV.
MRK,
The link above relates to adjuvants in the vaccine. Specifically Thimerosal. Sorry, most of that has been booted out long ago.
I know you meant thimerosal as a preservative, and it is still in some of them.
Sanofi non in single dose 5mL in party pack
CSL non in single dose 5mL in party pack
Novartis single dose ⤠1 mcg
same in party pack
Non in Flumist
Gee, this information has been all over the web for months.
The swine flu vaccine is:
1. A genetically engineered live virus designed to kill everyone who gets it.
2. This is part of a UN depopulation program.
3. The vaccine will be mandatory.
4. Resisters will be hauled off by the US army to FEMA concentration camps.
The anti-vaxxers just write fiction. When none of this happens, they will just write some other fiction. Do I mention this is all a plot by the Illuminati, the Reptiloid aliens, Bigfoot, and the Elves?
The nonsense is unbelievable. My 2 Cents:
If anyone wants to know what exactly is in the vaccines then look it up under prescriber's information--all ingredients are spelled out in simple english.
Many of the health care workers that I seem to be needing to educate hourly in my shop are reluctant to receive the vaccination because of the association of the 1976 swine flu vaccine with increased risk for Guillain-Barré syndrome. However, the rate of this rare event has greatly decreased since 1990 to one report per million flu vaccinations. This is ten times less than the risk of developing Guillain-Barré syndrome after coming down with the flu itself. To put this into better perspective, it is like a one in 1 million chance when you flip a coin, that it comes up 20 heads in 20 consecutive tries.
Many say they are going to "take their chances". Many of these Bozos fail to appreciate the absolute unpredictability of the severity of pandemic strain influenza. This is one of nature's greatest creations--so simple yet powerful and unpredictable. Take your chances? Well tell that to the 16 yr old I took care of who ended up in a unit for several weeks and now has a crippled heart from myocarditis she developed from the swine flu or tell that to the husband of a RN who I took care of that ended up on a ventilator and almost dying. Both these individuals were as healthy as an Ox but now have health problems as a pure consequence of contracting swine flu. Go ahead take your chance--you might be the one third who gets the flu but does not realize it and then you bring it home and infect one of your young kids. Imagine what Christmas carols you will sing to them while they are ventilated in a pediatric ICU and imagine how you will feel knowing that you could of prevented this by a simple, safe vaccination.
BostonERDoc" "Many say they are going to "take their chances". Many of these Bozos [US health care workers] fail to appreciate the absolute unpredictability of the severity of pandemic strain influenza... Imagine what Christmas carols you will sing to [your children] while they are ventilated in a pediatric ICU and imagine how you will feel knowing that you could of prevented this by a simple, safe vaccination."
BostonERDoc, you ARE being ironic using the word "safe" to describe LAIV-based swine flu vaccines, aren't you!?! I appreciate the complete seriousness of your posting and agree with you 100% this chimeric cross-species pandemic virus could evolve significantly midst the Northern spread of wave two to become the stuff of nightmares (it already is that to the surviving family members who've lost loved ones to wave one swine flu).
Do you really think us educated "Bozos" have completely lost the plot in feeling instinctual fear about a vaccine which is "live", mate!?! Don't you get it!?! It was the wrong scientific and medical decision to manufacture LAIV-based pandemic vaccines in the first place as, if you've deciphered the science-lingo, there ARE technical problems associated with this specific type of vaccine-model. These "technical problems" feed and enhance viral strain mutations... Maybe not a whole lot (perhaps a minute percentage), but enough when you consider millions of people are being vaccinated at the same time...
Look mate, this is a realtime public health EXPERIMENT which may (or may not) go tits-up on a truly grand scale... We "Bozos" are fucking scared:*(
Crof's H5N1 Blog -- Chan: H1N1 spreading at "unbelievable" rate (August 29, 2009)
http://crofsblogs.typepad.com/h5n1/2009/08/chan-h1n1-spreading-at-unbel…
Jonathon Singleton said August 31, 2009, in reply to Sandra...
"Sandra, the serious public health problem at present are the effects and consequences of pumping many millions of people simultaneously with live, attenuated H1N1/2009 influenza vaccines (LAIVs).
LAIV-based swine flu vaccines are weakened live viruses. But because of the technical nature of manufacture [identical to MedImmune's seasonal FluMist vaccine], this cold-adapted live vaccine has been found to be genetically unstable in warm body cells.
Unlike the safer inactivated type, [MedImmune's Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine Live, Intranasal] facilitates replication-cycle mutations of the virus in lung cells whilst inducing the protective mucosal immune response [and significant viral shedding from the vacinee]. These viral replication mutations can be transmitted to others, serving to seed future wave strains of transgenic flu.
Yes, many people involved in science and healthcare are frightened about this improperly tested realtime science experiment becoming a "Dr. Crippen" (Emma Thompson's role in the movie I Am Legend). The "cure" becoming the "cause" of a public health disaster...
Strange, I always thought medicine was about not creating more harm than what would have transpired without intervention!?!"
Background reading:
Chen Z, Aspelund A, Kemble G, Jin H.Molecular studies of temperature-sensitive replication of the cold-adapted B/Ann Arbor/1/66, the master donor virus for live attenuated influenza FluMist vaccines. Virology 2008, 380(2), 354-62.
Chan W, Zhou H, Kemble G, Jin H. The cold adapted and temperature sensitive influenza A/Ann Arbor/6/60 virus, the master donor virus for live attenuated influenza vaccines, has multiple defects in replication at the restrictive temperature. Virology 2008, 380(2), 304-11.
Block SL, Yogev R, Hayden FG, Ambrose CS, Zeng W, Walker RE. Shedding and immunogenicity of live attenuated influenza vaccine virus in subjects 5-49 years of age. Vaccine. 2008, 26(38), 4940-6.
Doesn't anyone find the connection between "LillyEli" and the drug company name "Eli Lilly" suspicious? If "LillyEli" is a pseudonym, then the choice of it becomes interesting, doesn't it?
Has anyone approached the lactation consultant to see if she really wants to have links on her site which connect to woo-meisters?
As if that weren't enough, look what I found on one of the newsgroups I frequent:
"GLENN BECK is doing a special show on H1N1 and the new vaccine.
Did you know that the vaccine contains mercury???*
Did you know that mercury causes autism???**"
Randolph my 'correction' to Revere really refers only to his statement that the live attenuated virus vaccine isn't being used in children--in my county it is preferentially being given to children at this time. Personally I think that is a good idea (since Medimmune has done more testing in kids now--the vaccine used to not be approved in them not because of any observed danger but because of insufficient study).
RE: Women, children, and online fora--The anti-vax crowd on online boards is loud, aggressive, and otherwise repugnant. Many family-oriented board moderators elect to leave these sorts of posts alone, believing that their giving "both sides of the debate" an opportunity to have their say. This often results in anti-vaxers mixing it up with sane, science-based posters and putting the whole group on edge. I'm certain it leaves lots of moms terribly confused; I have several otherwise normal friends who have bought into the New McCarthyism (that is, Jenny McCarthy's philosophy).
BabyCenter's own articles are written or vetted by members of the medical community, which is why the LC linked to it as a resource for her clients. Some of their stuff is quite helpful to new parents, but the grey areas arise on those community boards. They anyone to say anything, which is fine if you want to give your two cents on how to make peace between your toddler and your newly-mobile baby. But allowing medical advice--and a LONG posting at that--to be dispensed by unknowns should not be tolerated. The moderators should be called to task to protect the communities that they foster online.
The lactation consultant immediately removed her link (she said it was given to her by a trusted source and she hadn't carefully looked at it). She posted this:
"Thanks to one of our readers for bringing it to my attention that the babycenter.com link about vaccines I posted previously contained erroneous information. She contacted babycenter and was informed that they have removed it. Thanks! This feedback is invaluable and I welcome comments and information from all of you. You can post it here or email me privately."
The striking thing about these rumors/posts/whatever is that they seem to be intentional, malicious lies rather than just repeated craziness. (Though it's sometimes hard to tell malicious lies from true-believing craziness.)
What's the motive for this? Unlike a lot of woo, it doesn't seem to be commercial. Is it just some larger national-level version of griefing?
albatross: A lot of this is the usual anti-vaxer crowd and other wearers of tin foil chapeaus. I can't speak to their motivations or belief systems. Psychiatry was not my best subject in medical school.
Revere: My apologies for a bit of a thread hijack.
Now that we are at Week 40 when the CDC traditionally starts reporting on the flu situation, I was wondering if you have any thoughts, comments, or (I know you hate these) predictions based on the numbers we are seeing presently?
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/
It looks like we just had an average flu season... except that it wasn't flu season. The latest uptick in ILI visits make me fearful that the recent spike was just the "bump before the hump" seen in past flu seasons. How scared should I be?
Pan Flu Watcher: As everyone here knows, I hate to make predictions about flu. But I'll have a post up tomorrow on ICU beds based on southern hemisphere experience and another one, maybe Sunday, on peds mortality. My gut feeling is this is going to be short but sharp but then we could get a second season with seasonal flu. Or not. I just don't know. That's the truth. But most age groups except mine are already almost to the same risk of getting flu this season that they'd have by the time the season was over, not in its first week and the pneumonia & influenza mortality ticked up so flu season is really underway. How far will it get? Dunno.
Revere, I take it you are referring to the Australian and New Zealand (Southern) ICU study @ NEJM -- "Critical Care Services and 2009 H1N1 Influenza in Australia and New Zealand" By The ANZIC Influenza Investigators:
The following excerpt from that study pretty much mirrors your words, "I just don't know. That's the truth". I think even someone like Miso -- and I agree with you his/her approach was a bit off conflating Oz state gov bigotry and taxpayer funded attacks against me with the underuse of Relenza as a valid swine flu treatment -- can see the unbiased scientific honesty of the Southern researchers, given they've acknowledged the possibility of H274Y-type events:
"The inferences that can be drawn from our data are subject to some limitations... [For example,] our data were gathered early during the pandemic in Australia and New Zealand. The findings may be different during future waves, owing to the timely deployment of an effective vaccine, to viral mutation, and to resistance to antiviral drugs..."
Perhaps I'd be less confused had I stayed in school. O well. I watched a hearing on c-span several years ago on vaccinations and autism. What I took away from it was that mercury containing vaccines caused autism and Big Pharma were a bunch of baby poisoning bastards. Seemed a bit over the top. However, I did not and do not have the background to readily evaluate mercury, live vs. killed virus, viral shedding, herd immunity, etc. Over the top claims are sometimes easy to identify, and the sources to easy discount. Sometimes maybe they shouln't be discounted. How, outside of an argument from authority, is an overworked construction contractor to make informed choices? How, within arguments from authority, to weigh various authorities?
I'm sure my wholesalers will soon be pushing me to install various indoor air quality products to help prevent the flu. Since I really do not trust claims from salesmen, how do I know what is effective? I'm being asked already to push filters and Ultra Violet lights to capture, kill or remove molds, bacteria, chemicals, pollens, etc, etc, etc.
The mommy blogs are horrible sources of misinformation, full of anti-vaxxers and alties. I read one set of parenting forums (fora?), and would certainly like to see a site to coordinate efforts to battle againt the ignorance and misinformation spread on these sites.
Are there any good reference sites for combating the common arguments? I feel like I have a duty to try to educate people and to oppose the lunatics who are suggesting quack therapies and urging people to not vaccinate (currently of course, H1N1 and seasonal flu are the targets), but I feel like I'm repeating the work others have done in digging up evidence, and probably not as effectively.
The facts do not lie. According to the Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) more than 200,000 people are hospitalized each year from complications related to the flu. Around 36,000 per year die from flu related causes. The CDC recommends seasonal flu vaccinations as the best way to prevent the flu.
You can find out where to get vaccinated through your doctor or search engines online like medtipster.com
Good luck in your decision!