Welcome to the Age of Ignorance

Yes! Truly a great day!

AoA went so far as to divert any comments originating from my IP address to go directly to their 'spam' center, and received a rather snippy comment from Stagliano that she'll post whatever she wants to, and delete whatever she wants to, and I should just go to those science boards.

Those pesky science boards...with their scientific method, and testing, and evidence. Things like that can really get in the way of 'investigative journalism'.

BTW, anyone here from AoA on Bernadine Healy latest post at U.S. News and World Report? For the last few months, she was the justification for all their claims. I wonder what they think of her now.

Orac, if you haven't been tipped off directly: "Free Speaker" is one of our old associates from MHA. It's almost as well-kept a disguise as your own.

I'm disappointed that your opinion of me is such that you think I don't already know that...

Well, now we need a blog for posting comments on Junk Food Science (Sandy Swarcz), since she does not permit any comments at all.

I'm disappointed that your opinion of me is such that you think I don't already know that...

Covering all of the (plexiglas) bases. Engineers, like surgeons, are professional pessimists.

RJ,

Dr. Healy was briefly on a TV news show (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27440647/) about vaccines and autism. Although her time was brief, I would expect that the AoA team still think highly of her.

Luckily, the Today Show kept Dr. Healy to her opinions and didn't allow in her unsupported assertions.

[off-topic]

Orac, if I remember correctly, you mentioned sometime ago that Kirby had (somewhat) taken back the claim that vaccines cause autism. He has a new article out at Huffington Post. Needless to say, it seems he has found a new twist that lets him recycle all his older material.

This new website will tank just like all the other ND nonsense blogs... More of the same silliness. AoA, on the other hand, being based in truth and parental observations will continue strong. Enjoy another failing website.

"parental observations"

You mean ... non-scientists and non-medical professionals who have no actual education or training whatsoever? Yeah.

Thanks for the laugh, Snore Fest!

"You mean ... non-scientists and non-medical professionals who have no actual education or training whatsoever? Yeah.

Thanks for the laugh, Snore Fest"!

Ah, no Marilove ... I mean parents... you know parents - the people who watch their children like hawks and know what they were like pre-vaccination vs. post vaccination. You know, the ones who have video tapes of their children walking, talking and interacting vs. after vaccines have injured them. You know, the ones who followed the ambulances after their children started seizing "coincidentally" right after a set of vaccinations. You know, the parents who buried their children within a few days after vaccinations. You know... the thousands of them .... ps. Many of them are scientists and medical professionals too... Imagine that?

Give me experience over education and training any day... Especially considering the "education" that our doctors and/or medical professionals are getting these days.

Clearly Marilove is a bit lost....

"Give me experience over education and training any day... "

Oh, wow. Okay.

I'd say you're a bit nuts.

Snore Fest, you should do more reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence#Anecdotal_evidence_and_…

"Give me experience over education and training any day... "

Oh, wow. Okay.

I'd say you're a bit nuts".

In this case... it's true. Experience tells you that vaccines can kill/maim children. People see it with their own eyes... Therefore, they know. A doctor with a medical school "diploma" (whoop-de-doo) is told there is no connection. Period. That doctor is being told a lie but unfortunately they don't have the human life experience to see that they have been lied to. Therefore, the parents are the ones to trust, not those who happened to read about the wonders of all vaccinations in medical school for one question on one test. Experience counts, honey. Never mind the fact that you conveniently forgot to speak to the fact that many of the parents are scientists/medical professionals.

Sorry that you are so ignorant :(

Hey WTF....

What does wiki say about injecting neurotoxins into babies?

Please advise.

Um, okay?

Wow. Marilove, don't worry. You just got the kooks attention. Yeah. Parents with videotapes that show their children before and after vaccination. Like the ones that the Cedillo's have? The ones that the experts reviewed and found signs of her autistic behaviors LONG before her parents claimed the vaccines did it? Videotapes are cool.

I know right, MI Dawn? BUT EXPERTS ARE WRONG! Because they aren't parents!!!! Education and training and degrees (I love her use of "diploma") are always bad, bad, bad. The only knowledgeable people are PARENTS! DUH! I mean, the mounds upon mounds of evidence that states there is no evidence that links autism and vaccinations? Totes not right 'cuz PARENTS didn't do it. Duh.

It's surprising how strong the emotional belief can be. These people believe, emotionally, that vaccines, etc. caused this problem. Once that happens, no amount of logic and reasoning can defeat that belief.

Experience tells you that vaccines can kill/maim children. People see it with their own eyes...

So, how do these people get the superpower of x-ray/microscopic vision? 'Cause I want it too!

"BUT EXPERTS ARE WRONG! Because they aren't parents!!!! Education and training and degrees (I love her use of "diploma") are always bad, bad, bad".

Did I say that experts are WRONG because they aren't parents? Nope. Didn't think so. You need to work on your reading comprehension skills. Did I say that education and degrees are always bad, bad, bad.... Nope again... Let me guess... You graduated from med school, right? Magna cum idiot, perhaps?

So, really... there are mounds and mounds of evidence disproving a link between vaccinations and autism. Cool. Alert the CDC... they haven't been able to produce any convincing evidence.

"Experience tells you that vaccines can kill/maim children. People see it with their own eyes..."

You see when you have a child who goes to a well-baby visit, receives 8 shots and dies that night.... That's death by vaccine. When that same baby regresses post vaccination... you can see this as well.... It isn't brain surgery. Use your head.

The person who cannot decide on a 'nym said "Use your head."

You might try that sometime.

First off, do you have any actual verification of your fantastic stories? How often do they happen? Because I have seen some, only after investigation it was not quite as the parent reported.

Also, tell us exactly what "neurotoxin" is in the MMR vaccine? Give the ingredients, dose and evidence that it is dangerous. You might also tell us exactly why getting measles is safer than getting the MMR.

You see when you have a child who goes to a well-baby visit, receives 8 shots and dies that night

Who, when, and where?

Ah, yes, the personal experience crowd, where seeing something yourself gives you the superpower of being able to handwave away science thanks to being able to see causation in an N=1 "study."

These people need to get out of their ivory tower and delusions of being beyond mortal foibles.

Tell us "person who cannot think of a 'nym" exactly how you would have prevented this:
http://www.newschannel5.tv/2008/11/17/1001405/Infant-Death

update to previous URL:
http://www.newschannel5.tv/2008/11/17/1001397/Infant-Death-Investigation

lol @ fanatical anecdotal evidence.

I love that the article implies there wasn't any parental neglect. If the child wasn't vaccinated for whooping cough (what child should die of that in 2008?!), the child was likely not vaccinated for anything. I'd call that parental neglect and abuse. Wouldn't you?

The child wasn't old enough for that vaccine yet.

That's the real kicker, he got it from somewhere. Most likely an unvaccinated child that was older and therefore more resilient to the disease themselves.

This is exactly the reason the anti-vaxers are such a problem. When vaccination rates fall it affects herd immunity, which in turn endangers those unable to be vaccinated. This is how your choice can endanger someone else.

Pay attention AoA crowd, this is only the beginning. I hope you have good lawyers.

Ah, you are right, Indy; I missed that. That makes it even worse. :/

That hits home for me... Due to his neonatal seizures my first baby was denied protection from pertussis, he only got the DT vaccine (recent papers show that the DTP did not really increase chances of seizures, kids get seizures... my son is a case in point, his started a two-day newborn). At that time the level of pertussis vaccination was low (a friend whose now 22 year old son got pertussis at age 5 told me it was at about 50%), and there was a pertussis epidemic in the county.

I had to be very careful who came into contact with my firstborn infant/baby. If you look at the CDC Pink Book's Appendix G you will see a blip of pertussis cases/deaths at about 20 years ago. You will also notice that has happened again, with over a dozen American babies dying from pertussis in the last few years (check out the pertussis slide set).

He was finally vaccinated for pertussis when he was 19 years old with the Tdap. My other younger teenagers have also had the Tdap. I will get it at my next tetanus booster.

I recently read somewhere that the Tdap is being recommended for new mothers, to help keep pertussis away from their infants, to prevent things like this:
http://www.immunize.org/reports/report076.pdf

"That's the real kicker, he got it from somewhere. Most likely an unvaccinated child that was older and therefore more resilient to the disease themselves".

Really? You seem so sure that the child was exposed to a dirty unvaccinated child and that is how the child whooping cough? Why so sure? There are many cases where vaccinated children have gotten whooping cough... (like my son as an example). I would wonder what vaccines the child DID have - perhaps the child's immune system was compromised by the neurotoxins already injected.

Let's just make sure that we understand things here. Anytime a child dies from a vaccine preventable disease you are all able to pin it on an unvaccinated child and you are allowed to insinuate that somehow the AoA crowd are somehow culpable and/or should get lawyers -- LOL!!! However, when a child is killed by an unsafe vaccine schedule... we can't blame the vaccines. Is that about right? Sorry, wrong.... It doesn't work that way. Keep plugging away.

Anytime a baby dies, it is tragic. Deaths via disease or death via vaccines. Equally tragic.

You've been asked to provide this "receives 8 shots and dies that night" example, yet no links. You have yet to offer any proof towards an unsafe vaccine schedule other than your super parent sense.

Exactly how do you know what a neurotoxin is? Maybe from research done by educated scientists? Why do you believe neurotoxins to be dangerous? Those scientists could be lying the same as the ones you believe are lying about vaccines being safe. What ingredient in a vaccine do you consider to be a neurotoxin, and why? Remember those scientists that told you this could have been lying too.

You know, the whole world could be involved in a giant conspiracy to make you look like an idiot. And it is working!

Turns out either you are either making up the problem in your head or you are depending on science to say science is bad. I'm still not sure how having a child makes you more aware of how chemistry or toxins work. Does your super parent sense teach you any other tricks like how to fix the car or the lawnmower?

Death via vaccine preventable disease is tragic because it is preventable.

The one who can neither answer a simple question nor come up with a 'nym said "There are many cases where vaccinated children have gotten whooping cough... (like my son as an example)."

Yes, that happens. It is one reason why there are now boosters for older children and adults.

Then sh/he/it continued with "However, when a child is killed by an unsafe vaccine schedule... we can't blame the vaccines."

Please, we ask again for the details. If it really happened it would be a case report in PubMed. Just give us the link to the case report. Plus tell us how often this happens. That would also be a paper in PubMed, or in a public health database (and don't use VAERS, use a database that is not a self-selecting survey), just like the CDC has records of the deaths of over a dozen American babies each year for the past few years.

And to continue what Indy said, even water can be a neurotoxin. Too much water and a person can die. The dose makes the poison.

Give us actual data and evidence.

"Please, we ask again for the details. If it really happened it would be a case report in PubMed. Just give us the link to the case report".

While I don't really see the need to give you cases because it should be as clear as day that children DIE from vaccines... I will give you one example off the top of my head. Please do what you can to show me where this case was reported in PubMed as that would at least be a step in the right direction in terms of understanding why some children are killed by vaccines.

A little boy by the name of Francis Rawnley was killed by his vaccines just this past year at the age of 4 months. He went to a well-child visit on the afternoon of 3-13-08 and died at 12:30 AM on 3-14-08. He received the Prevnar, Pediarix and HiB vaccine. Clearly those vaccines in combination KILLED that boy. It was reported as SIDS but as we all can clearly see this was VIDS (Vaccine Induced Death Syndrome). How many other SIDS deaths are actually VIDS deaths?

Feel free to say a little prayer for him ...

Since it is "clear as day" then there should be no problem at all providing the lots of cases and medical research behind it. Why the resistance unless you are just using your super parent sense again?

The best you can come up with is a case of SIDS you guess is related to vaccines? Proof? Medical evidence? Sorry if I do not just take it on faith from an Internet person that can't even pick a consistent handle.

Oh I know, you are going to trot out the global conspiracy stuff again hiding the evidence. If that's the case then you cannot accept what anyone tells you, not even the anti-vaxers! They might be plants from the great conspiracy trying to confuse people! Are you sure your neighbors aren't part of it? They might be plants to spy on you. Who knows, maybe they snuck into your house last night and gave your whole family a full round of vaccines! Of course, why would they do that since it is all about the money and they can't send you a bill for it! More questions! Oh my, this paranoia is hard and stuff! So many possibilities to think about! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Back to the point - what do you say about someone that comes out of the doctors office after a flu shot and gets hit by a car in the parking lot? Do flu vaccines increase the chance of being hit by cars? That anecdotal cases seems to indicate it.

S/he/it who cannot stick to a 'nym is arguing by "blatant assertion". That is just an anecdote without a link to show that it actually happened with an actual medical report. The plural of anecdote is not data. Even doing a Google search on "Francis Rawnley" brings up absolutely no links (there were a couple of hits on a dating site in Uganda).

You say that "clearly the vaccines in combination KILLED the boy"... but you do not provide any real evidence other than your opinion. Try again. Give us information that looks more like this:
http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/153/12/1279

Actually, SIDS has gone down when vaccination levels go up and there is no real evidence that SIDS is caused by vaccines, as this review shows:
http://www.scielosp.org/pdf/bwho/v81n11/v81n11a08.pdf

S/he/it who cannot stick to a 'nym, if you wish to be taken seriously, come up with some real evidence. If you think that Pediarix is more dangerous than pertussis, tetanus, diphtheria, polio and hepatitis B... show us the real scientific literature showing that is the case. Show us exactly how either DTaP or Pediarix causes more death and disability than pertussis, which presently kills over a dozen American children per year.

Since it is pretty clear that s/he/it who cannot stick to a 'nym will not click on the above links, or even read those full papers with comprehension, I will post another. It is only the abstract, there is no full link like I usually like to use, but it should show what kind of effect vaccines have had on SIDS:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17400342

Vaccine. 2007 Jun 21;25(26):4875-9. Epub 2007 Mar 16.
Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis.

CONCLUSIONS: Immunisations are associated with a halving of the risk of SIDS. There are biological reasons why this association may be causal, but other factors, such as the healthy vaccinee effect, may be important. Immunisations should be part of the SIDS prevention campaigns.

"Since it is "clear as day" then there should be no problem at all providing the lots of cases and medical research behind it".

Please provide the PubMed information on the little boy above specifically who died of whooping cough. I will need the backup information that this is what it was and not some other genetic abnormality. I will also need the proof to know that he caught it from some dirty unvaccinated child. While your at it... please provide the safety data on all the vaccine ingredients for the DTaP. Thanks in advance...

Indy deserves 100,000 vaccines poked into his/her buttocks. Where's PrOffit when you need him?

My family is fully vaccinated, thanks for your concern though!

No side effects whatsoever, so I guess since personal anecdotes and super parent sense are the rule of the day then I can tell you definitively that vaccines have no side effects at all and most definitely do not cause autism. See how that works? I took my own limited personal experience and turned it into fact.

Does that make you believe me? No? So why is your limited personal experience valid as proof then?

Now let's take both personal anecdotes and apply scientific research. Hmm, which one is more compelling ....

I'd much rather have 100,000 vaccines than have the stupid bat broken over my head, which you are demonstrating quite well. And besides, the Grand Conspiracy couldn't spare those 100,000 vaccines for just me. They have them loaded up in the Black Helicopters headed for your house. Time to sleep with one eye open!

I really shouldn't be laughing this hard at someone else's misfortune. But boy, your brand of "dumb" is funny.

"I'd much rather have 100,000 vaccines than have the stupid bat broken over my head, which you are demonstrating quite well".

Huh? Broken bat over my head.... WTF are you talking about?

As for you... Please do go get yourself 100,000 vaccines injected in your butt ... You deserve to be "protected". Please go for it. When we don't hear from you again.... We'll know why.

As for you silliness with the "anecdotal" stories. Why is it so hard to understand that each child/individual has a different immune system with a different background, etc. That's lovely that your family did just great with vaccines many DO NOT. Certainly not all cigarette smokers get lung cancer. Not all those exposed to asbestos die from that either... Are you so naive that you don't understand this concept?

Oh good, Sue is back. If you are hit over the head with the stupid bat, does it effect your reading and comprehension skills.

If some anti-vaccine quack is telling you to separate vaccines into 100,000 different shots, you need to find a better doctor. I recommend Dr Paul Offit - he figured that a single shot could safely have 100,000 antigens in it.

Now you are comparing smoking to vaccines? Wow.

You provided an example with no evidence. When you were asked for evidence you dodged and redirected the question. Since there is so much plain evidence simply prove it.

When did a child get 8 vaccines and die that night as a result?

You have provided one case where you believe a child received 3 vaccines and died. No link, no case report, nothing. We are just expected to believe you and your interpretation of what you heard.

The bat thing is just a metaphor. I'm not surprised you didn't understand it.

The Hannah poling case is an example, determined by a trial that she was free of autism and then got brain damaged right after getting 9 Vaccines. Her dad, a Neurologist witnesssed her descent into Autism right after she was poisoned. Even the court ruled vaccines played a major role. Moment of silence for another child who got Hundereds of times the EPA's safe limit of mercury and lost her health.

Moment of silence, thank you.

"Now you are comparing smoking to vaccines? Wow".

Wow... right back at you. I am not *comparing* smoking to vaccines... (I can't believe that I have to explain this). What I am saying is that different people have different tolerances for toxic assaults or they have different genetic backgrounds or different immune systems, etc. Not EVERYONE who smokes gets cancer. Not everyone who has vaccines will have a bad reaction. Does it happen? Absolutely. The key would be to get a real sense of risk/reward and move to make the vaccination schedule as safe as possible for ALL children. What's so hard to understand?

"When did a child get 8 vaccines and die that night as a result"?

I just gave you an example (one of many) where a child died the night after he was vaccinated. Now you are going to quibble about the fact that it wasn't 8 and of course it couldn't have been from vaccines because they conveniently labeled it "SIDS". How crazy is that? I don't have a "case study" because they labeled it SIDS (which is a bogus claim for when perfectly healthy infants die from vaccine reactions) but you won't except it because there is no "case study" in PubMed... Beautiful. No wonder we are in such a mess...

notmercury said "Oh good, Sue is back."

I thought s/he/it had a "Common Sue" vibe.

Common Sue said "I just gave you an example (one of many) where a child died the night after he was vaccinated."

No, you did not. You gave an example without anyway for us to verify that it actually happened. For all we know, you did what lots of folks like you do: made it up out of thin air.

All you have to do is show us the real evidence and we will believe you. Until then, you are just an annoying troll.

Common Sue said "Please provide the PubMed information on the little boy above specifically who died of whooping cough."

It was a news article just last week, which was much more than what you offered. You just gave a name and a date, often with these there are actual discussions on forums and blogs, and the Google search brought up nothing.

Here is one case report from PubMed:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5403a4.htm (which is still just an anecdote... you have to use the gathered annual data)

I also offered three papers that discussed the relationship between SIDS and vaccines. Which was much more than what you offered.

I also noted that the CDC Pink Book Appendix G and CDC Pink Book pertussis slide set has information on the dozen of infant deaths from pertussis in the USA. Which is much more than what you offered.

Just give us the real science that shows us that the vaccine is worse than pertussis.

"No, you did not. You gave an example without anyway for us to verify that it actually happened. For all we know, you did what lots of folks like you do: made it up out of thin air".

Yeah sure... as if I would make something up like that. Give me a break. It happened. Now, I could easily give you the "evidence" of the death of the baby and what vaccines he had, etc... but why? You would just pull out the "coincidence card"... Is it really worth it? Do you deny that there are records of babies dying soon after a set of vaccinations? Do you believe that all records of this happening would be "coincidence"...

I am not even pulling out the "coincidence card" because I see no evidence that the child even existed.

Common Sue, you are just making it up.

Until you provide real verifiable evidence with actual documentation (and for a case like a child reacting to a vaccine a news report is sufficient) nothing you write here will be considered worthwhile.

That also applies to cooler, who like Common Sue is most likely a bot that posts computer generated nonsense.

That is, until you provide real verifiable scientific evidence that the vaccine is worse than the disease it protects against. That was done for smallpox, and for OPV in developed countries. All you have to do is do the same for the rest.

Yeah sure... as if I would make something up like that. Give me a break.

If you didn't make it up, prove it. You're the one that made the claim, so it should be a simple matter to back it up with some actual evidence. Particularly considering that this:

Now you are going to quibble about the fact that it wasn't 8

appears to be acknowledgment that you already lied.

LOL, Oh, Sue.

Common sue: Not just a member, but the founder.. yeah, the founder, that's the ticket.. of the Pathological Lying Antivaxxers Club.

Take your 'PhD in Google' and keep spinning the wheels on the Jackass Operation. It really is fun for the whole family.

"The Hannah poling case is an example, determined by a trial that she was free of autism and then got brain damaged right after getting 9 Vaccines."

Cooler, I'm trying to find info on court sites that clarries this statement but cannot find it anywhere. it leads me to believe that you aree making it up.

Can you provide a reference as to the court hearing date/time or reference to the vedict/court opinion?

Thanks.

RJ, there was no trial in the Hannah Poling case. It was a matter of settling out of court, plus she is not autistic but as a condition that involves her mitochondria. She would have been injured both with a disease or vaccines, and she was not terribly healthy prior to the catch-up vaccines.

Cooler is a troll-bot and not a critter to get real answers from. You'll find more information here:
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?cat=80

Yeah, actually I knew that. It was to get cooler to heat up a bit on reading skills...or perhaps work on that selective memory.

I feel the main reason why there was an award granted for her case was the fact that her dad knows the lingo, and was able to speak (like a lawyer would, in court) in a way that led the court to dismiss the case and grant an award. I bet I could do it too, if I had the morals of cockroach. It's just knowing what to say, how to say it, and demonstrate an understanding of the concepts involved...not necessarily to have a valid point.

Rj,
Here is a summarry of the case in Time Magazine. A
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1721109,00.html

"What's unique about Hannah's case is that for the first time federal authorities have conceded a connection between her autistic symptoms and the vaccines she received, though the connection is by no means simple."

"She had an uneventful birth; she seemed to be developing normally -- smiling, babbling, engaging in imaginative play, speaking about 20 words by 19 months. And then, right after receiving a bunch of vaccines, she fell ill and it all stopped"

Lol HCN she was totally healthy before vaccines besides some minor ear infections.

I think Kathleen Seidel did an excellent piece on the Pollings. I'm sure you've seen it, but just in case.....

http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/176/

"Hannah, now 9, recovered from her acute illness but she lost her words, her eye contact and, in a matter of months, began exhibiting the repetitive behaviors and social withdrawal that typify autism. "Something happened after the vaccines," says her mom, Terry Poling, who is a registered nurse and an attorney. "She just deteriorated and never came back."

Geez... I really didn't want to have to go here because it is so sad... but since people think that I would actually make up a story of a baby's death soon after vaccination... Here's the info. Go to:

http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2008/06/it-was-good-day-in-dc.ht…

Scroll down to the very last picture. Then, say a few prayers for this boy and his family.

I'm embarrassed for all of you who wish to make a joke out of this topic.

Ignore any troll-bot that produces quotes without attribution or cite that can be verified.

And yes, RJ, I am very familiar with that page, it is full of links that should be read, especially this one:
http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=203

What you said before:
"The Hannah poling case is an example, determined by a trial that she was free of autism and then got brain damaged right after getting 9 Vaccines."

What the panel said:

"A panel of medical evaluators at the Department of Health and Human Services concluded that Hannah had been injured by vaccines -- and recommended that her family be compensated for the injuries. The panel said that Hannah had an underlying cellular disorder that was aggravated by the vaccines, causing brain damage with features of autism spectrum disorder (ASD)."

There never was a trial. There never was a ruling. What was said that a girl with problems had additional issues following vaccination. There was no mention that it was caused by it. There is no mention of any mechanism. They did not say vaccines caused autism.

Someone with skill in the art would understand the distinctions. You, on the other hand, have manufactured your own interpretation, and it's inaccurate.

Many vaccine autism cases have been put before the court. In the old days, some received awards. Now, they are not granting awards and nearly all are dismissed. This one, however, got through. Why? Just as I mentioned, if you can play the game, you can find the technicalities and get through the hoops, avoiding the pitfalls that trying to make a "vaccine caused issues" proposition inherently has. Like I said, he knew what and what not to say to that panel. It was enough for them to get some money. Good for them. That's 1 out of hundreds attempted. BFD!

Case Study: Autism and Vaccines
By Claudia Wallis Monday, Mar. 10, 2008
Time Magazine.

Theres the reference for the quote HCN :)

"plus she is not autistic"

Uhm... HCN... Hannah Poling is most definitely autistic. Please don't lie. If you don't know what to make of a situation or if you are unclear... Say nothing. Don't lie.

Hey cooler, and what...

If Hannah Poling didn't get those shots, would she be 'normal' today?

To the Common Sue troll-bot, photographs can lie just as well as you. That is not verifiable evidence. It only shows that YOU did not make it up. Also, that photo is being displayed too soon for a proper medical review, so the holder may not be a liar, but just guessing.

Still, the plural of anecdote is not data.

That is also not evidence that any vaccine for pertussis is worse than the actual disease. There is actual public health documentation that pertussis kills over a dozen Americans per year:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/Slides/Pertussis10…

Moment of silence for another child who got Hundereds of times the EPA's safe limit of mercury and lost her health.

The EPA is not the FDA. The EPA's maximum contaminant levels for drinking water (based on lifetime, constant exposure to large volumes of potentially contaminated water, not short-term or sporadic exposure to minute doses of medicine) have nothing to do with the safety or efficacy of FDA-approved medicines and treatments. Conflating the two is intentionally misleading.

"That is not verifiable evidence. It only shows that YOU did not make it up. Also, that photo is being displayed too soon for a proper medical review, so the holder may not be a liar, but just guessing."

You know I used to feel angry at people like you HCN. No longer. It is now simply sadness. Sadness for the fact that you must lie and/or assume that someone else is lying or exaggerating the facts in regards to vaccine injuries/death. I understand that I am on a silly "skeptic" site... so this is expected but still sad nonetheless. There is also an obituary on this little boy which states "SIDS" as the cause of death. Was that a proper medical review? Was there a proper medical review given, HCN? You tell me. Why don't you call and find out from the hospital and/or ped's office as to the formal medical finding for this little boy's death. Again, that would be a step in the right direction... I'm all for it. When the listing/cause of death is listed as SIDS and the child had vaccinations that day at a WELL-CHILD visit... The door is open for interpretation... Is it not? By all means do your due diligence to get the proper authorities out looking into each and every case of SIDS.

As for your pertussis information... I got it HCN. I got it. Pertussis kills over a dozen Americans per year. Got it. How many children die from SIDS which could be attributed to vaccine reactions? How many children die from seizures which began "coincidentally" the night after they were given a set of vaccinations?

I understand that when it comes to babies/immune systems, etc... there will be incidences where a child will suffer from disease. I understand that. My question to you is... Why is it that I am the one who recognizes the problem and wishes to work with the doctors/ped's/CDC/AAP in coming up with a safer vaccine schedule so as to limit toxic exposures while at the same time protecting the children... Whereas you want to continue in a state of denial about the dangers of vaccines in certain children. There are many things that could be done.... No Hep B at birth for all babies, spacing out certain vaxxs, giving one or perhaps 2 only at a time, perhaps pushing the schedule out so that babies don't receive vaccinations until 6 months of age, single live virus vaccinations given only, no thimerosal containing flu shots, more research on aluminum and its toxic affects, etc. etc. etc... There are steps that can be taken... Why do you prefer to live in LA-La Land?

"If Hannah Poling didn't get those shots, would she be 'normal' today"?

There is no way of telling. It is quite probable (although again who knows) that Hannah may have been exactly like her mother - ie certain mitochondria issues but NOT autistic. Instead the vaccinations triggered her autism. It is as simple as that. How many other children has this happened to?

Common Sue Troll-bot said "How many children die from SIDS which could be attributed to vaccine reactions? How many children die from seizures which began "coincidentally" the night after they were given a set of vaccinations?"

Go up thread to the three papers that show that the risk of SIDS either decreases with vaccination and that some cases of "SIDS" were other things, like co-sleeping.

By the way, decreases means that there are fewer cases of SIDS when children are vaccinated.

Common Sue continued with "Why is it that I am the one who recognizes the problem and wishes to work with the doctors/ped's/CDC/AAP in coming up with a safer vaccine schedule so as to limit toxic exposures while at the same time protecting the children"

What are those toxins, and what evidence do you have that they are worse than the toxins produced by pertussis, tetanus or diphtheria? (all bacteria that produce some very nasty toxins, real toxins... not made up ones that troll-bots like you like to talk about but never in detail).

Common Sue Troll-bot continued with this lie: "... Whereas you want to continue in a state of denial about the dangers of vaccines in certain children."

I have never ever denied that there are dangers to vaccines. They are real and documented, but they a small compared to the effects of the real diseases. The DTaP does cause reactions, and they are noted in the official literature, but they pale in comparison to the effect of the pertussis toxin.

Again, if you have any evidence that SIDS is caused by vaccination you should provide the actual science that counters the three papers I posted. Show that there is correlation that cannot be explained by coincidence and that the danger of SIDS is greater than pertussis or other other infection like Hib.

Also show the science behind your suggestions... The real science (by the way, influenza vaccines are available without thimerosal, need to correct that particular lie), AND that babies will not die like do now if we actually try "pushing the schedule out so that babies don't receive vaccinations until 6 months of age".... especially after reading the latest article by Dr. Crislip here:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=289

Common Sue Troll-bot ended with "Why do you prefer to live in LA-La Land?"

I live in the land of evidence and proof, something that you have failed continually to provide. Again, if you have real scientific evidence to provide I will change my mind. Because you should never ever believe anything I post, I have provided real actual links to real actual statistics, research and information --- yet your closed mind is set.

Common Sue Troll-bot suggested "perhaps pushing the schedule out so that babies don't receive vaccinations until 6 months of age,"

How would that prevent diseases that are particularly brutal to babies, like pertussis and Haemophilus influenzae type b?

You do finally seem to understand that a dozen or more American babies die each year from pertussis, but once upon a time Haemophilus influenzae type b wrecked havoc. When my younger son was an infant in 1990 I went to a baby/mom group where I met a woman whose first child had died from meningitis caused by Haemophilus influenzae type b before he was a year old.

If you read page 9 (7 in the pdf file) the CDC Pink Book Chapter on Haemophilus influenzae type b you will see this paragraph:
"A pure polysaccharide vaccine (HbPV) was licensed in the United States in 1985. The vaccine was not effective in children younger than 18 months of age. Estimates of _efficacy in older children varied widely, from 88% to 69% (a negative efficacy implies greater disease risk for vaccinees than nonvaccinees). HbPV was used until 1988 but is no longer available in the United States."

Did you notice that it was pulled when it was found to be worse for the vaccinated?

Now for a paragraph on the next page:
"Both Hib conjugate vaccines licensed for use in infants are highly immunogenic. More than 95% of infants will develop protective antibody levels after a primary series of two or three doses. Clinical efficacy has been estimated at 95% to 100%. Invasive Hib disease in a completely vaccinated infant is uncommon."

Now, for a paragraph on the whole sordid history of Hib vaccines (including the not so good stuff on the early versions):
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedi… ... with this paragraph... "ii) The Americas. Once PRP-CRM (HbOC) and PRP-OMP had been licensed for 2-month-old infants in the United States in 1991 (81), the decline in the incidence of Hib diseases that had started as a result of vaccination at age 15 to 60 months quintupled. Since then, the sequence has been spectacular: Hib cases registered by the Kaiser Health Plan in Southern California decreased from 53 to 2 cases in 3 years (175); the incidence of all classical Hib manifestations declined by 92 and 85% in Dallas and Minnesota, respectively (117); and among U.S. Army children, the annual incidence of Hib meningitis declined from 59 to 6 per 100,000 (22). The overall incidence of this entity in the United States has been lowered by 98% among children 4 years of age or younger (14), and currently stands at 1.6 per 100,000 per annum. In the prevaccine era, the average incidence was 88 per 100,000 per year, and 19,500 cases of Hib disease were reported annually in young children (31, 32). The savings through the use of conjugates amounted to $500 million in 1992 (157). Complete elimination of Hib disease, however, has not been achieved; around 300 cases continue to be reported annually (14, 27)."

This means that the infant vaccination for Hib caused a spectacular REDUCTION in cases. It worked.

For you plan, you need to find an effective way to protect babies under the age of 6 months.

Stupid blog software screwed up the cut and paste I did from http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/hib-508.pdf ... It was supposed to be:
"Estimates of _efficacy in older children varied widely, from 88% to -69%"

It took the dash off before the number "69" (stop giggling!). I did not notice it at first, but hopefully it will be here. Though I do wish troll-bots like Common Sue and cooler would actually click on the links I post.

As an aside on parental observations being taken as real evidence: I was involved as a teenage passenger in an auto accident and then more recently in middle-age witnessed an accident involving an out of control firetruck. In the first I still remember the car we hit as red, when it was really blue... in the latter I mistook one white pick-up truck with another white pick-up truck, and it turns out neither was involved... other than the innocent guy hit by the firetruck because the firetruck driver actually lost control of his vehicle (I was even interviewed for a TV news report... watching a firetruck crash not far from where you are standing is very scary).

In both accidents my personal observations were WRONG, WRONG, Wrongety WRONG!!!!

Guess what, I am very willing to admit I was wrong. When will you?

Common Sue said "Instead the vaccinations triggered her autism. It is as simple as that. How many other children has this happened to?"

Tell us. Really, find the information and tell us.

Since the strange little troll who has popped up here can't come up with anything more than unsourced anecdotes, I thought I would return in kind :

I got a flu shot yesterday and now I can fly. Don't you dare doubt me or make me prove anything, just believe me! Use your head!

(etc.)

"By the way, decreases means that there are fewer cases of SIDS when children are vaccinated".

Sure.... ;)

"What are those toxins"

Aluminum, thimerosal, etc etc... You know those perfectly harmless neurotoxins which shouldn't be injected into babies.

"Again, if you have any evidence that SIDS is caused by vaccination you should provide the actual science that counters the three papers I posted".

I'm not suggesting that ALL cases of SIDS can be attributed to vaccines, but certainly many times it can. As an example, the little boys death that I referenced earlier. Clearly that was a VIDS death and not SIDS... Any moron can see that. We simply need to get a better grasp of the numbers.

You can give me all the copy and paste articles that you want, HCN... I simply want to understand the risk/rewards better. As you must know, vaccines cause damage to babies and can kill some too... All in the name of health... That is not good.

"Guess what, I am very willing to admit I was wrong. When will you"?

Where am I wrong on this topic, HCN? You certainly haven't convinced me that I have been wrong on anything. Or, are you instead looking for stories from my personal life where I was wrong (as you have provided above). Well sure, here it goes... yesterday I was convinced that my middle son used a magic marker on my wooden coffee table. He's typically the culprit when it comes to using his creativity skills on my furniture. It has happened before so I was sure as sure can be that it was him again. It turns out I was WRONG, WRONG, WRONGETY WRONG... Instead it was my angelic 4 1/2 year old. So, HCN, I admit it ... I was wrong :( So, I guess we are even....

"Tell us. Really, find the information and tell us".

That's interesting but not at all surprising that you have no interest in finding out the numbers of children who became autistic following vaccinations.

"I got a flu shot yesterday and now I can fly. Don't you dare doubt me or make me prove anything, just believe me! Use your head"!

Hey, Nobody Special, that's cool... Do you need any advice on the tallest building near where you live in order to test out your super powers? It is pretty ironic that you don't seem to care that flu shots aren't really proven safe or effective. So much for using your head...

Common Sue Troll-bot said "Aluminum, thimerosal, etc etc... You know those perfectly harmless neurotoxins which shouldn't be injected into babies."

Evidence please? How are they worse than pertussis toxin?

Or even water when there is enough ingested?

Yup, Common Skank is a real live reporter now for the age o' handley. I guess when she's off her meds, she just can't resist coming over to a site dedicated to science and spreading her conspiracy-driven and snakeoil-fueled disease.

In the past it decided that diabetes=autism=mercury poisioning. And then it slid (literally) right on over the edge to outright antivax paranoia. Seriously Sue, your Li2+ is calling.

Who is Common Skank/Sue/Troll-bot?

You guys seem a bit paranoid ;)

As for the water analogy... How much mercury is safe to inject into babies, HCN?

ps. I'm pretty sure that the accidents that HCN witnessed as a teenager and more recently were actually the result of space ships landing on the hood of his/her car which blocked his/her view. Sorry you were so Wrong, Wrong, Wrongedy Wrong about that.

Any troll-bot like you who avoids answering the actual questions and instead posts straw man arguments with insults thrown in for flavor.

You must first prove that the vaccines are worse than the disease before going off on individual ingredient tangents.

So what evidence do you have that any of the vaccines that have a pertussis component in them are worse than the actual disease, which still kills a dozen American babies each year?

"Any troll-bot like you who avoids answering the actual questions and instead posts straw man arguments with insults thrown in for flavor".

Does the expression 'pot meet kettle' mean anything to you?

"You must first prove that the vaccines are worse than the disease before going off on individual ingredient tangents".

Really? That's what I MUST do. Who says, HCN? First, I think that it would be important for *you* to prove that injecting aluminum and thimerosal into babies is safe and effective. Get to work.

As for you comment however... For the vast majority of children who get pertussis, measles, etc. -- the child will recover just fine. A few days out of school, some discomfort, etc. etc. The same goes for vaccines. The vast majority of children will do just fine. This is why we must be much more selective and careful when we decide upon which vaccines and what schedule is as safe as possible for ALL children. This isn't too difficult to understand.

Common Sue Troll-bot said "As for you comment however... For the vast majority of children who get pertussis, measles, etc. -- the child will recover just fine....The same goes for vaccines."

But the thing is that vastly MORE children will do well with the vaccine as opposed to the disease. Measles tends to kill one out of a thousand and leave another large chunk of victims with permanent neurological damage... pertussis is still killing babies in this country.

When vaccination goes down, the diseases return. Measles is now endemic in the UK, Japan and several other developed countries, with real deaths. It will not be long before that happens here.

Pertussis already is here, and it is more common in states with more relaxed vaccination rules:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/296/14/1757

So what do you want to do... suspend all vaccination until they meet some kind of safety standard set by you? So far you not even shown that there is increased risk of adverse effects from the DTaP versus diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis.

Plus, why even bother dragging the "injecting aluminum and thimerosal into babies" when speaking of the MMR? It has never had either ingredient.

How many more children will die from the actual diseases while you and your fellow vaccine scaremongers continue to claim to be for "safe vaccines", when you cannot even prove that they are not safe in the first place?

"But the thing is that vastly MORE children will do well with the vaccine as opposed to the disease. Measles tends to kill one out of a thousand and leave another large chunk of victims with permanent neurological damage... pertussis is still killing babies in this country".

Ok... So what do you do with the hundreds/thousands who do not do well with the vaccine and actually become permanently damaged or die? Now, here's the thing... I have been very willing to discuss alternative schedules or spreading vaccines out in a safer way. Eliminating Hep B at birth, getting rid of yearly flu shots, no Prevnar (horrible record), no five in one shots, etc. You are the one who is unwilling to compromise at all. *IF* your intent really was to protect children and keep them from harm from the REALLY dangerous diseases it would seem to me that you would take a more cautious approach to the vaccine schedule in order to make it safer for all. The fact that you don't seem willing to do that, tells me that your intent has NOTHING to do with "protecting" children.

"Plus, why even bother dragging the "injecting aluminum and thimerosal into babies" when speaking of the MMR? It has never had either ingredient".

Why don't you show me where I did that, HCN? As you know, I am well aware that the MMR never had either of those ingredients -- (as the thimerosal would *KILL* the live virus, which is pretty comforting). Anyway, live virus vaccines have their own concerns having to do with live VIRUSES being injected into babies. It's pretty ironic that one of the reasons why it is sooooo important to vaccinate babies for the mmr is supposedly because of the dangers of pregnant moms getting rubella which can lead to autism in their offspring... YET, stay with me here.... It is absolutely impossible that a live measles, mumps and rubella shot could trigger autism in a baby. Your logic escapes me.

Morphic troll,

Do you have any idea why HepB is given at birth?

Of course not. That would mean that you had shown some intellectual curiosity in your life.

HepB is sexually transmitted. Now before you say that us vaccine proponents are worried that babies are being sexually abused, you should consider your own birth. You were (unless you were a C section) shoved headlong out of a vagina. Where, if mom was an asymptomatic HepB positive carrier, you would be exposed to HepB.

Since the majority of HepB carriers have never had serious enough symptoms to require diagnosis, and in many states, there is no testing, vaccination from birth against an easily communicated virus that can cause severe liver damage is a good choice.

Your concerns and worries have already been thought of, examined and dismissed before they were even dropped into your head, unthinking, from whatever antivax website you gathered them. By scientists and physicians with training beyond your university of google education.

-----

On measles and autism, you are aware, I hope, that a full blown measles infection during pregnancy is different from a minor and easily defeated vaccine based infection, from the kid's point of view? Beyond that, the brain is at different stages of development during these two very different times, and is sensitive to different stresses.

I think some small part of you is aware of this, but your misguided passion overwhelms that rational part.

If only you had some small bit of defensible evidence, you could discuss alternative schedules, but over all these posts, you are lacking even a mote.

You may care deeply "about the children" (argument from adverse consequences), but without evidence, you are flailing blindly, and endangering those same kids you so wish to protect.

Lots of flailing words that go all over the place from the troll-bot, but still no real evidence that vaccines are less safe than any of the diseases,

For instance, where do you get the numbers in this quote "So what do you do with the hundreds/thousands who do not do well with the vaccine and actually become permanently damaged or die?"? Where is the actual documentation (and use real evidence, not self-selected data like VAERS)? Otherwise we will assume you just made it up.

"Morphic troll,

Do you have any idea why HepB is given at birth"?

Listen troll... You know what they say about people who ASSume, don't you? Yes, that is you... I know perfectly well why they give the Hep B vaccine at birth. Frankly, it is a disgrace. What you do, my friend, is test the mother BEFORE the baby is born? What's the issue, troll? Right there on my hospital paperwork it shows that I actually was tested and I was Hep B negative. Why were my children given Hep B at birth? Answer me that, genius. Seriously, we need to get our heads around why we are making such poor decisions in regards to injecting babies with crap! Use your head.

"On measles and autism, you are aware, I hope, that a full blown measles infection during pregnancy is different from a minor and easily defeated vaccine based infection, from the kid's point of view"?

And you know that because.....? Please... Spare me. If you have a baby with an underdeveloped immune system or some sort of issues in regards to how they process viruses, toxins, etc... you cannot tell me that they can't have bad reactions to the live viruses injected into them ... Don't be an idiot.

"You may care deeply "about the children" (argument from adverse consequences), but without evidence, you are flailing blindly, and endangering those same kids you so wish to protect".

Right back at ya' ...

"Lots of flailing words that go all over the place from the troll-bot, but still no real evidence that vaccines are less safe than any of the diseases".

Still waiting for the safety data on the vaccines themselves along with the ingredients injected. When you get it, you let me know. Until then, consider yourself a sheep.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim, trollbot.

Awwww, did I touch a nerve, morphic troll? Pick a name and stick with it. You may think that it is getting under our skin, but really, it just shows your immaturity.

You may be HepB negative, but that isn't my concern. My concern, as a public health advocate and toxicologist is that we have a system that takes into account those who aren't tested, or for whom the trip to the hospital is their first exposure to pre and post natal health care, or for home birthers. Vaccinate everybody, and be done with it. If we can implement universal testing, THEN we change the schedule, not before. And we certainly will not change it for the feelings of someone who throws fits without understanding that schedules are based on careful examinations of epidemiology.

I base my statements on evidence. Yours are based on emotion and hearsay. Yes, bad reactions can occur, especially in immunosuppressed individuals, hence they are often advised against vaccination. Said events are rare, though, and are much less common than events for the full blown disease.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/index.html

0.1% develop encephalitis - Often leads to severe mental retardation
5-15% middle ear infection
5-10% pneumonia
1-5% die (in developing countries)

It is estimated that in the US that the death rate is probably closer to 0.1%, with complication of pneumonia being most common.

SIDS kills about 1 in 2000 live births, so measles still wins out as more dangerous than all vaccines together, if you ASSume (oh so clever, aren't you) that every SIDS death is due to vaccines and nothing else.

That took a few minutes of my time. You could have done it yourself, and not begged us to do the footwork for you. You come with a claim, refuse to back it up, and wail until we knock it down. Grow up a bit and educate yourself with facts before you start to form opinions.

------

Now, why don't you be the one to find an ingredient list for a vaccine, with concentrations for all those oh so scary toxins, and then we can discuss what they mean.

Laser Potato said "The burden of proof is on the one making the claim, trollbot."

Troll-bot wants safety information, I'll give her this:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/safety.pdf

Then sticking with one vaccine, the DTaP, page 15 of:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/pert.pdf ... contains a whole list of the DTaP adverse events. Mostly arm soreness and fever. The whole thing is listed and referenced, all you have to do is read it with an open mind and be willing to accept the data.

Now just tell me, with the information I gave you what real actual scientific evidence you have that the DTaP is worse than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis. Stop evading this simple question. It is just one vaccine, and three formally common diseases.

"You may be HepB negative, but that isn't my concern. My concern, as a public health advocate and toxicologist is that we have a system that takes into account those who aren't tested, or for whom the trip to the hospital is their first exposure to pre and post natal health care, or for home birthers. Vaccinate everybody, and be done with it".

LOL! LOL! Hilarious. You are one of the reasons why we are in this huge mess right now. Vaccinate ALL BABIES with neurotoxins for a very rare disease whether or not the mother is a carrier. Do you realize what an idiot you sound like? No, really... Idiot. "Vaccinate everybody, and be done with it"... That's PRICELESS! No wonder people are starting to wake up to the absurdity of our vaccination policies.

Why don't you post the safety data of injecting aluminum into babies? Thanks in advance! Silly man...

You are posting links to the cdc.gov website... Are you high?

Ah, no thanks. I would like real data please.

Troll-bot said "Ah, no thanks. I would like real data please."

Then provide some!

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm

Morphic troll. I showed you for the fool you are. Measles is worse than your fantasy of vaccine induced SIDS. Do you have a reputable source for the information you are asking for? Of course not. You don't what it takes to look up information.

Measles is only rare because of vaccination.

Hepatitis B -- According to www.hepb.org (non profit advocacy group, I'm sure they won't be good enough for you, as they don't support your paranoid delusions) 12 million Americans are infected. 100,000 new infections a year. 5000 deaths a year from HepB and complications. It isn't rare, and it is also, again, worse than your fantasy.

What toxins?

Alluminum? Binds to transferrin and albumin and is then excreted by the kidneys. It is in food and tap water, but toxic loads are only found in those with severe kidney dysfunction (especially in those receiving dialysis where the water used isn't aluminum free), and almost never with acute exposure. If you are looking for infants with aluminum toxicity, you need to look for those receiving antacids containing aluminum at exceptional levels.

For those vaccines that do include aluminum, they include between 0.625 mg to 0.125 mg. Even assuming no excretion whatsoever, the WHO considers exposures of less than 1 mg/kg body weight per day to be safe, so even multiple vaccines in a day don't add up to anything to be concerned with. Even if a kid drank formula made with water containing unusually high aluminum levels, you would be looking at 0.5 mg/kg body weight per day, so even adding vaccines to high exposure isn't enough to raise a red flag for a single day.

The exposure of a kid to the level of aluminum present in a vaccine is simply too low to be of concern even for kids with low renal function, who would likely be excluded from mandatory vaccination until renal function returns to normal.

Again, you concerns are unfounded, already examined before they even crossed you mind, and dismissed as wanting.

That is your last freebie.

Quid pro quo, Clarice. Quid pro quo...

Even assuming no excretion whatsoever refers to the vaccine injection only. Sorry for the lack of clarity.

"Hepatitis B -- According to www.hepb.org (non profit advocacy group, I'm sure they won't be good enough for you, as they don't support your paranoid delusions) 12 million Americans are infected. 100,000 new infections a year. 5000 deaths a year from HepB and complications. It isn't rare, and it is also, again, worse than your fantasy".

Dude,

You seem to want it both ways. Let's see... is Hep B dangerous to newborns because of the mother/child relationship during delivery? If so, we test the mothers first so as not to inject unnecessary toxins into day old infants. Is Hep B dangerous due to sex, drug use, etc. etc...? If so, we could CONSIDER Hep B at an older age - perhaps as a suggested but certainly not mandated vaccine. What I am asking you to do is use your head and don't unnecessarily inject BABIES with toxins. It's really not that hard to understand. Now, let's see... We now see that they recommend the Hep A vaccine too now to babies. Interesting. My kids didn't have that recommendation when they were younger. Should I be running out to my pediatrician to beg them for the Hep A vaccine now? I'm sooooo worried. NOT. It's just insane. Sorry that you bought into the nonsense :(

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm

Morphic troll, You still don't get it.

I knocked down one "toxin" of yours. Now it is your turn to bring some information to the table.

There simply isn't enough aluminum in vaccines to even compare to exposure from tap water. Even if baby never drinks anything but breastmilk, said baby will still be getting aluminum exposure if mom drinks from the tap.

It just isn't enough to be toxic. The dose simply isn't high enough to be dangerous, and compared to other sources, it doesn't even compare.

Your voluntary concept does not protect people from one of the most common infectious liver damaging pathogens out there. Make it mandatory for all kids who had a mom that tested negative twice for HepB before birth, by the time they are say, 10 years old, and we can talk.

HepA is far easier to catch, lack of hand washing discipline at a restaurant is enough, and while you typically only have one bout before you get lifelong immunity, its still safer to vaccinate than not.

Now, Clarice. Quid pro quo.

Present us with some data that any one of your claims is correct. Perhaps you could even just say that today is Wednesday, and we can say that you were correct on one issue.

Or go get your attention fix somewhere else.

"I knocked down one "toxin" of yours. Now it is your turn to bring some information to the table".

Ummm... No you didn't. You most certainly did not "knock down" one "toxin" of mine. How foolish. Where are the studies of aluminum being INJECTED into babies. The last time I checked babies don't drink their vaccines but they have them injected (other than an oral vaccine obviously). Talk about apples to oranges. Geez. Why don't you and your other "experts" go out there and analyze that for a while. Good luck.

"Your voluntary concept does not protect people from one of the most common infectious liver damaging pathogens out there. Make it mandatory for all kids who had a mom that tested negative twice for HepB before birth, by the time they are say, 10 years old, and we can talk".

Confusing comment. Having said that... I am reading into this that you agree with me that injecting babies on day 1 or day 2 of life from a mother who tests Hep B negative is completely unnecessary. Cool. It's a start....

"HepA is far easier to catch, lack of hand washing discipline at a restaurant is enough, and while you typically only have one bout before you get lifelong immunity, its still safer to vaccinate than not".

So everyone over the age of say 2 years old (before the vaccine was "recommended" should be running out to get their Hep A shots, right? Is that what you are telling me? Ah, nope. Sorry... I'll pass :)

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm

Believe what you want, morphic troll. Route of exposure does make a difference in absorption, but the minuscule amount of aluminum from a vaccine still does not compare to oral exposure when it comes to contributing to body burden.

We don't need a study to determine what simple math tells us. Once absorbed, aluminum is aluminum is aluminum, and oral exposure is far more weighty. Maybe I've been ASSuming you can do math (Oh I used it again! you are so witty!). So a 6 pound kid, on the low end of average, translates to about 3 kg body weight, can cope with an exposure of 3 milligrams per day. HepB vaccine has 0.25 milligrams of aluminum. That is 8.3% of what a kid can deal with in a day. It all gets excreted the same way, and as long as your kidneys are working, there is no way that a vaccine would include enough aluminum to be a danger. And if your kidneys aren't working, it is pretty obvious, and a shot is the least of your concerns.

Besides, you don't get any more freebies until you provide proof of any of your claims. Want to know how much aluminum is absorbed from your gut? Look it up yourself. Do the math. Do something for yourself for a change instead of playing chicken little.

And should you get the HepA vaccine? I would, but we don't want you to be exposed to those horrible toxins. If diabetes is a concern to you, since the liver is often involved in diabetic processes, it would definitely be a good idea.

Or you can hope. Hope stops disease processes, right?

BTW, oxygen is a toxin. See how long you can avoid that one. Oh, and your keyboard is leaching plasticizers into your skin and the air you are breathing, those are toxic estrogen agonists. And your orange juice? It has methanol and formaldehyde in it. Like some pepper on your mashed potatoes? Capsaicin is a poison. Happy Thanksgiving, tryptophan can not only contribute to drowsiness, but in a small number of people, an excessive exposure causes a severe and irreversible metabolic disorder leading to a painful, lingering death (typically, this is from those "safe" alternative health supply stores, not enough there from a turkey dinner).

Run scared of a few milligrams of the aluminum bogeyman if you want, but I'll happily take my jab and avoid infection with viruses and bacteria that can actually cause real injury. And I will happily vaccinate my kids, too.

"It all gets excreted the same way, and as long as your kidneys are working, there is no way that a vaccine would include enough aluminum to be a danger. And if your kidneys aren't working, it is pretty obvious, and a shot is the least of your concerns".

As I am sure that you agree, this is getting old. I would just like to add (and I imagine that you would have to agree with me - no matter how painful it is for you) that when a baby is one day old/two days old we really do not know what health concerns/weaknesses a baby may have. It would be impossible to tell at that age. Therefore, the Hep B vaccine at birth should be eliminated immediately - unless the mother tests positive. Who knows... it is even possible that some babies' health issues start on that very first day of life via a toxic assault from their very first vaccination. How tragic. Of course, it would be easy for pediatricians to say months later... Oh, this baby was sick from birth. Right out of the hospital this baby was showing signs of immune dysfunction or whatever the case may be. This may true in fact. The baby could have been sick "from birth" due to the crappola pumped inside of him/her. It sounds pretty reasonable to me to postpose ANY/ALL vaccinations until 2 months of age at a minimum (certainly I would say that no vaccines should be given until 6 months of age but at least 2 months is a start). I can't imagine how any one could disagree with postponing vaccinations until 2 months of age. So, I'll leave it at that... as I prefer leaving things on a happy note.

ps. Just so we are clear, you aren't comparing oxygen with aluminum, are you? LOL! Where's the eye roll emoticon...?

pps. Do you have kids, Robster? It almost seems as if you talking about them in the future... If so, check back with me when you have your own little ones and you making decisions on vaccinating them... I trust that you thought process will be a bit different than it is here. It is much easier to play the "Of course you have to vaccinate your kid.. you idiot" card when you are not speaking from the experience of deciding on vaccinating your own bundle of joy.

Morphic troll,

You don't have anything to back up your fears. Nothing. You have nothing to stand on. Not even your most basic concerns survive a first glance, let alone a second. You know this, and rather than admit that you might possibly be wrong, you try to act magnanimous and bored so you can slink off, victorious only in your mind.

What you consider to be reasonable is anything but. Vaccine schedules are based on careful thought, something that is truly alien to you.

Am I comparing aluminum to oxygen? [sigh, are you really this dense?] No. I am pointing out how many things in your everyday life are capable of being toxic. It is impossible to protect your kids from everything that might be toxic, so protect them from things that ARE toxic.

I don't have kids, but when the time comes, I will talk to our pediatrician about healthcare matters, not some antivax loon that can't perform simple math or support a single claim with any tiny bit of verifiable evidence.

Why don't you go hang out with the nuts who claim that shaken baby syndrome is a vaccine injury?

"I don't have kids, but when the time comes, I will talk to our pediatrician about healthcare matters, not some antivax loon that can't perform simple math or support a single claim with any tiny bit of verifiable evidence".

Typical. Why don't you come back to discuss the issue when you have your own kids health to worry about. Until then... Stay the h*ll away from kids ... Got it? You are a disaster. It's pretty easy to worry about the sanctity of the vaccine program when you have no worries about your own offspring. Let me give you a piece of advice. Stop being so darn condescending and start listening to the antivax loons... They are the only ones trying to protect YOUR future children from serious vaccine damage. The CDC/AAP certainly don't give a darn. Perhaps one day you will understand that..... On the off chance that this happens someday... Let me say in advance... You're Welcome.

http://rantpuppets.com/2008/11/is-jenny-mccarthy-a-danger-to-the-world/

So having kids automatically means you understand more about epidemiology and immunology than those darn PhDs and MDs? No. It doesn't.

Who should I trust?

You, who can't understand that there simply isn't enough aluminum in vaccines to concern yourself with, and have no expertise or claim to authority other than doing what the lowest of sexually reproducing organisms can do based on instinct alone? You, who have yet to provide evidence of any claim?

No.

Or my fellow medical scientists, who have such things as evidence to demonstrate that we are better off with vaccines than without? Who have children of their own, and vaccinate?

I think that the answer is clear on that one. Yes.

Be glad that there are far more people like me than those like you. While you congratulate yourself over saving the world over some imaginary vaccine injury epidemic, it is we, the vaccinating majority, that protect your brood of social parasites from real diseases that cause real deaths and real injuries.

Robster, it does not matter to this morphic troll if you have had children or not. I have children, including one who was vulnerable to an epidemic in our county, and is actually disabled. Do you think s/he/it cares about my opinion, or even my data? (I have actually posted papers... some from none-USA countries, s/he/it has posted none!... s/he/it has yet to answer any of my questions)

Even if you were a parent of a dozen children, half with various disabilities and you have several degrees in medicine, science and a Nobel Prize --- s/he/it will not be swayed from her/his/its opinion formulated from her/his/its Google Univ. education.

Despite your valiant effort, give up on this troll... but do go here and post a T-shirt tagline (bummer, I'm dragging this post back on topic):
http://age-of-ignorance.blogspot.com/2008/11/alternative-contest.html

"So having kids automatically means you understand more about epidemiology and immunology than those darn PhDs and MDs? No. It doesn't".

Ah, no.... It does mean that you have more life experience on the topic at hand. It means that you've watched your own child regress or become ill, etc. etc... You may even have videotapes to back up your claim. You may have been transported in the ambulance to the hospital as your child seized the night after your child received their "life saving" vaccinations. There are plenty of reasons why parents know more about INDIVIDUAL situations as opposed to the broader HERD mentality of the "experts" (I use that term very loosely). As I'm sure that you know, 99.9% of the parents who know that their children were injured by vaccinations... actually followed the experts advice... The idea that they are anti-vaxx lunatics or whatever is completely irrational.

I can almost guarantee that you won't get the Hep B vaccine for your little one in the hospital (assuming the mother is negative). I can also guarantee that you will be asking a lot of questions about the specific vaccines that the doctor wants to give and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if you delayed or changed the schedule or refused a few vaccines. Which, by the way... makes you an ignorant hypocrite. Forget about it if your child breaks out in a head to toe "viral rash" post live virus vaccine or has some sort of other odd reaction... You'll be surfing the net in seconds flat. Again, You're Welcome.

Ah yes, the claim to special knowledge line. More bullshit from a minor league bullshitter. My favorite is the videotape line. I seem to remember seeing a piece about a self deluded parent claiming to have video proof of the onset of autism, which when reviewed, it was clear that the parent was wrong, and the signs were there much earlier than the omniscient parent claimed. Come up with some proof of any one of your claims and I'll put in the time to dig it up, but you are out of freebies.

Make all the ASSumptions you want (tee hee, it never gets old! glad you keyed me into that one!), but my kids will be vaccinated, probably beyond the standard, since I have family living in Africa that we will visit.

Hey, Robster... So, you are 12! Cool.

Back to your video games.

Robster,

Keep up the good work in demanding proof for irrational claims. Rational parents who reject non-scientific nonsense appreciate your efforts to prevent pro-disease activists from degrading public health.

Andrew (parent of an autistic child, who is protected from disease by vaccines)

Andrew,

Thanks, that means a lot. I certainly understand the need to blame something that the antivaxers display, but their irrationally chosen target is putting others at risk.

-----

HCN,

I know, but I guess I have spent too much time around my cats, and want to play with my prey.

>^^<

:-)

"Andrew (parent of an autistic child, who is protected from disease by vaccines)".

How funny :)

Just in case I haven't been clear. You are all free to vaccinate your kids until you are blue in the face (or they are). I couldn't care less. That's certainly your choice. I draw the line with *you* telling *me* that *I* need to do the same. Stay the hell away from my kids. That's all.

:)

Only if you keep your unvaccinated kids away from those who depend on herd immunity (like the 3% to 20% that vaccines do not provide immunity, and they do not know it). Homeschool them, shop online and generally keep them away from the general population.

(irony --- you're doing it wrong... not surprising since you also get providing evidence wrong)

"Only if you keep your unvaccinated kids away from those who depend on herd immunity (like the 3% to 20% that vaccines do not provide immunity, and they do not know it). Homeschool them, shop online and generally keep them away from the general population".

Sorry... Not going to happen :)

Unvaccinated kids have just as many rights as vaccinated kids have. If you are worried about your kids - YOU homeschool and keep them away from others. It's as simple as that. Same goes for if you are concerned about terrorism, school bullies, etc. etc... YOU need to do what works for you and I will do the same...

And there you have it: The sense of entitlement inherent in antivaccinationism. Antivaccinationists think that the world should revolve around them.

"And there you have it: The sense of entitlement inherent in antivaccinationism. Antivaccinationists think that the world should revolve around them".

There is no sense of entitlement here. It is my choice not to inject my children with known neurotoxins and live viruses. It is your choice to homeschool your children if you don't wish them to be near my children. There is no sense that the "world should revolve around me".... I actually see it the other way around... YOU think that the world should revolve around those who push vaccines. I simply refuse to poison my kid. You certainly have the right to do so....

No, you refuse to protect them against infectious diseases out of paranoid delusions of a conspiracy to poison.

Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose, and your right to not vaccinate ends when it puts others at risk. As vaccination rates drop, outbreaks and severe complications increase. Too often this affects children who cannot be vaccinated due to legitimate health concerns.

But feel free to enroll your kids in a private school of like minded parents. You would be amazed at how great those are at spreading vaccine preventable diseases.

Natural deselection in action.

"Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose, and your right to not vaccinate ends when it puts others at risk".

Why don't you show me how not vaccinating my child with something like Hep B puts others at risk? If you can't... you lose... Clean up the vaccination schedule and then you can talk. Until then, beat it. Also, remember you are nothing here in the controversy. I wish I could be a fly on the wall at the hospital and at your first child's well-baby visit... You will be doing a lot of negotiating with the doc... Of course, you know that. I thought that parents were crazy too in many aspects UNTIL I actually had kids. Grow up.

"But feel free to enroll your kids in a private school of like minded parents".

Nope. I'll enroll my kids in whatever school that I want to. Don't like it, pull your kids out :) Easy. Why don't you prove this statement:

"You would be amazed at how great those are at spreading vaccine preventable diseases".

If you can't prove it... you lose again. Seems to me, it's the vaccinated kids who are the sickest... Sorry.

Troll said:
"Nope. I'll enroll my kids in whatever school that I want to."

And use a fictional "religious" exemption? Awesome. Teaching your children about lying to get your way at that young of an age. You must be proud.

You haven't provided any proof for any of your claims, yet you have the audacity to follow a request for proof with a statement with zero proof. Where are these sick vaccinated children, or do your Interweb Anti-vax friends just tell you about them?

Enjoy your free ride for now. Every person you convince to not vaccinate just increases the risk that your own family will catch a vaccine preventable disease. Ask your parents or grandparents how much fun polio outbreaks were.

"And use a fictional "religious" exemption? Awesome. Teaching your children about lying to get your way at that young of an age. You must be proud".

Fictional religious exemption... How so? My religion teaches me that my body is sacred. Therefore, injecting it with neurotoxins is not an option... :)

Having said that... all states should have a philosophical exemption.

S/he/it said "My religion teaches me that my body is sacred. Therefore, injecting it with neurotoxins is not an option... :)

Having said that... all states should have a philosophical exemption. "

Except you have not given us any evidence that there are "neurotoxins" in vaccines. All you have said is that thimerosal and aluminum are neurotoxins WITHOUT any evidence (and ignoring that neither are even in the MMR vaccine). So what makes you think that the toxins in the actual diseases (like pertussis, diphtheria, and tetanus), or the real actual viruses in measles, mumps, rubella, and others care how "sacred" your or your kids' bodies are?

The states have philosophical exemptions have more cases of pertussis:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/296/14/1757 ....
"Results From 2001 through 2004, states that permitted personal belief exemptions had higher nonmedical exemption rates than states that offered only religious exemptions, and states that easily granted exemptions had higher nonmedical exemption rates in 2002 through 2003 compared with states with medium and difficult exemption processes. The mean exemption rate increased an average of 6% per year, from 0.99% in 1991 to 2.54% in 2004, among states that offered personal belief exemptions. In states that easily granted exemptions, the rate increased 5% per year, from 1.26% in 1991 to 2.51% in 2004. No statistically significant change was seen in states that offered only religious exemptions or that had medium and difficult exemption processes. In multivariate analyses adjusting for demographics, easier granting of exemptions (incidence rate ratio = 1.53; 95% confidence interval, 1.10-2.14) and availability of personal belief exemptions (incidence rate ratio = 1.48; 95% confidence interval, 1.03-2.13) were associated with increased pertussis incidence."

And yes, we have seen sites that show how to lie about their family's religion to get an exemption (it comes up on the sMothering forum every so often). It is not a coincidence that measles outbreaks have often been centered around schools where many parents used exemptions to avoid vaccines (and some end up with kids in the hospital on ventilators, which happened locally when a large family was infected at a religious conference).

I will not call you a liar, but I will say you are very close minded. You only see the information you want to see and ignore anything that contradicts it. I am thinking now you are someone who is a parody, but according to Poe's Law it would be difficult to tell:
" Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing" ... see:
http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Poe

Morphic troll.

HepB? Not so much. HepA, pertussis, measles, chickenpox, etc etc are easily communicable and if you won't protect your kids, and by extension, everybody else's, then keep your spawn away from the public.

As for the risks associated with gathering lots of non-vaccinated kids in one place being a good place to spread disease, I would think that is pretty obvious. But before I offer any sources to you, what part of no more freebies do you not understand?

You offer some evidence of any of your claims, and I'll respond in kind. Of course, you could also admit that you have no evidence, and are just paranoid.

Quid pro quo, Clarice. Quid pro quo.

"then keep your spawn away from the public".

Hey son... go back to your video games. Do you have a Wii System? How about an XBox? When you have your own spawn come back and talk to me. I'll fill you in on how to protect him/her from dangerous vaccinations. Until then, I'm thinking about Mario Galaxy for Wii for my kid, do you like that one?

Compelling argument in the face of facts and scientific knowledge.

In lieu of counter facts or real research he diverts the conversation to video games.

Just present your proof, Troll.

...Argumentum ad hobbium?

Reminds me of this one crank named Boney who essentially said all the logical fallacies of his I pointed out, corrections about quantum mechanics, and so forth didn't count because I play D&D.

Some jock from those movies: "NEEEEERRRRRD!"

So, morphic troll, how about you address the issue of your kids becoming an additional higher-risk vector for school children to be exposed to preventable diseases instead of resorting to grade school "NEEEEERRRRRD!" taunts?

Oh, and being able to squeeze out a baby doesn't give you the right to build an ivory tower where us commoners' logic and science doesn't apply.

Re "philosphical exemptions"

When did rampaging willful ignorance become a philosphy?