Really, I don't read Debbie Schlussel's blog—a reader sent me a link, so I put on the waders and gas mask and climbed down into the sewer. I'm now completely baffled; why is this insane and deeply stupid person ever put on television? Her response to the CNN complaints is illustrative, and even if you sympathize with her, you've got to recognized the big picture here: she's not very bright.
Something happened over the last 24 hours. Beginning last night, my inbox became populated with vile hate-mail from atheists. No skin off my back.
But it is entertaining and amusing. It's hard to believe their letters because they were all attacking me for my appearance on CNN's "Paula Zahn Now," a week ago, but coincidentally each letter claims the sender just watched me on CNN. First of all, the video of that segment appears nowhere on the net. Believe me, if it did, I'd link to it. Secondly, since I appeared on the show a week ago, that all these "seminar" e-mailers are now all e-mailing me the same basic hate message, populated with a diversity of obscene insults, it's easier to believe that they were easily brainwashed into sending me the missives as a result of an atheist blog that just put up an attack on me, yesterday.
Uh, that atheist blog? That was me. Digg picked up on it and it spread far and wide. She's wrong about the tone, though: it was an attack on CNN. All I did with Debbie Schlussel was ask she would feel if Jews were the target of the panel rather than atheists.
Now this post? This is an attack on Debbie Schlussel.
We can start with her research skills. That video is all over the web. I linked to it, it's on youtube, Richard Dawkins put it up, it's darned easy to find. Her excuse is that she searched for "Debbie Schlussel", and nobody had tagged it with her name. Vanity is no excuse, Ms Schlussel. You can't simultaneously claim that everyone's criticisms were about attacking you, yet nobody bothered to tag their complaints about CNN's bias with your name.
(Note to self: be sure to put Debbie Schlussel's name in the title of this post.)
Now let's take a look at her logic. After claiming that some atheist blog sicced all these wicked godless people on her, she uses that as an argument against atheism.
I'm surprised these atheists would be so obedient to a higher power that told them to e-mail me since, after all, the one thing they're supposed to have in common is a lack of belief in a higher power. Well, no-one ever said atheists are consistent or immune from hypocrisy.
I'm flattered, really I am. No one has ever called me a "higher power" before. It's a little worrisome, though; you see, if "atheist blogger" is synonymized with "higher power", and atheists don't believe in higher powers, then I'm just going to have to say "Oh, dear…" and poof out of existence. Alternatively, if this higher power exists as the theists assert, then it also implies that God has an atheist blog. Someone please send me the URL, I'd really like to read it.
But wait, it gets even loonier and more paranoid.
I don't mind receiving the atheist hate mail, since I know that in a few years, many of these same people will either be Muslim extremists (redundant) or helping the country fall further in its fight against the creep of Islamic imposition on America . . . or both.
Debbie Schlussel doesn't mind that there are hordes of atheist fifth columnists lurking in her country, waiting a few years to jump up, shout "ALLAH AKBAR!" and pull the detonation cord on their explosive vests? Why, Debbie, why? Why do you hate America? You should be very upset! If I believed that, I would be!
Look at famous atheists and what happened to them.
Yes, lets. Famous atheists…hmmm. Who do we think of? Off the top of my head, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Julia Sweeney, Daniel Dennett, Madalyn Murray O'Hair, Robert Ingersoll, Samuel Clemens, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Penn Jillette, Bertrand Russell…it's a long list. Who will Debbie Schlussel pick out as examples of our luckless and unpleasant fate?
Adam Gadahn a/k/a Azzam Al-Amriki
Who?
--now a top Al-Qaeda video "personality"--was raised by his hippie Jewish father and equally bizarre gentile mother as an atheist. And look how he turned out. Ditto for hippie-spawn John Walker Lindh.
Oh. So when Ms Schlussel furrows her brow and tries to name a famous atheist, the best she can do is name a couple of obscure Muslim fanatics who believe fervently in Allah? She needs to get out more.
I think we can also see from my list of famous atheists that sudden conversion to Islam doesn't seem to be a frequent occurrence. I don't think ex-hippies tend to turn into Muslims, either, although I could be convinced otherwise if anyone has any data. The one example she mentions, Gadahn, is half-Jewish; are they dangerous? Should we perhaps put Schlussel under house arrest and watch her closely in case she suddenly puts on a burka? I think she shows signs of some kind of imminent hysterical eruption.
Oh, and Lindh was at least nominally Catholic before his conversion. Clearly, we need to impound all the Catholics and Jews and children of hippies immediately—I hope there's room in Gitmo for them all.
I was brought up Protestant in a working class family, with parents who liked country-western music and Elvis. I'm safe.
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Oh, oh. I was raised Catholic. I suppose my conversion to terrorism is imminent!
At least I'm not as Catholic as Pelosi or Alan Keyes. I hear those people are dangerous.
you *really* need to email Karen Hunter and check out her imbecile replies. AFAIK she doesn't have a blog, but she answers all emails!
khuntercolumn@aol.com
How either of these women got where they are is beyond me.
BUT, Dawkins on Zahn tonight??? Could that be in response to the letters they got about the atheist segment?
Aaaaagh.
The robot people have an old saying, "DOES NOT COMPUTE."
So, she's saying that atheists are actually self-hating Jews who ultimately mutate into redundant Muslim extremists?
...
I'm not sure if she's a schmuck, or a schlmeil.
Maybe a schlmozel.
Blake, no doubt Ms Schlussel thinks that robots are just garbage disposals with sparks coming out of them, too.
Haha, the bottom section of that post had me laughing out loud. She really is a twit isn't she?
...she's suprisingly a member of MENSA apparently. But I've guess we've all met people who are academically able but socially retarded.
Of course, I'm too stupid to click the mouse only once.
Last I heard Angelina Jolie was still an atheist, so who the hell needs a Debbie Schussel?
She's so very shrill. Why does the hate america so much?
I guess if you're not christian you're automatically a muslim terrorist...
Unless you're a jew and then, ummm. Yeah I can't follow it.
Actually, I'd like to ask that to quite a few demagogues. After all, on 11 September 2001, the World Trade Center was destroyed by theistic creationists who hated the very idea of evolution. Every time you teach "Intelligent Design", you help the terrorists win. Ann Coulter, why do you hate America?
(Yes, it's silly. But if I were ever on TV. . . .)
It might be worth noting that Salman Rushdie was reared in a Muslim home and is now an outspoken atheist. Does this single example of a "famous atheist" then imply that Muslims are likely to become atheists?
For the record, I'm about as committed an atheist as one is likely to find, and while I consider all supernatural beliefs mistaken, I don't consider them all equally dangerous. Islamists probably ARE the most immediate threat to America. The idea that I as an atheist might be attracted to an ideology that is both mistaken AND genocidal is the lowest form of bigotry.
Wow. The comments there are interesting...a quick scan of the top several seems to be criticism of Debbie, with a strange comment from her repeating her claim that because the video wasn't tagged with her name, she couldn't be expected to find it.
I'd like to see her respond to the basic "replace 'Atheists' with 'Jews'" challenge, myself.
Hey, she might be on to something. From Fundies Say the Darndest Things:
The waves of stupidity and bigotry are making it hard to comment. They're pushing me away from the keyboard.
Actually, PZ, you might want to check up on the fate of O'Hair and son (robbed, killed, and buried by some fellow atheists). Not the best counter-example to Schlussel's bizarre rantings.
But that's about as meaningful as the Lindh "example", of course.
Anyhow, Schlussel, I didn't do a damned thing that PZ suggested. Does that make me a true atheist, a theist, a deist, a secularist, a free-thinker, a right-winger, a left-winger, a moderate, or apathetic? Come on, I need to know, as you are capable of such grand insights into the complexities of the soul by your observance of the simplest actions. My God, you might even be a medium of some kind, though you ought to be careful about such an identity as you try to make America into a theocracy.
And "higher power" or no, I do actually believe in PZ Myers. It's kind of one of those empirical matters, you know, related writings, photos, eyewitness claims, just the sort of thing us evil atheists worship and adore. You'll want to be tried in our courts (you know, as a medium), I suspect, however little you like us, for we continue to insist upon actual evidence, while your allies are trying to force things into science without the taint of "material" witness--material evidence.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/b8ykm
"I believe in America. I believe it exists."
...she's suprisingly a member of MENSA apparently...
Ouch. Not gonna be good for Mensa's image, is it?
It's interesting, tho'. Apparently, some marginal voices are more marginal than others, aren't they?
I mean, let's see: You're stark raving looney, and roughly as capable of putting together a rational set of conclusions from your premises as is a clump of drier lint, but you are a conservative and Christian? Sure, we'd love to give you a few minutes on our national cable news channel...
An atheist? Erm... sorry... it's not particularly material that the segment is actually on atheists, nor is it particularly significant whether you are or are not actually (i) sane and (ii) articulate... oddly, it just didn't occur to us to call. Our bad.
(It's spelled "Jillette." He may be an atheist, but he's also a paid-up member of the Church of the SubGenius.)
Note to self: Don't ever, EVER, piss off PZ Myers!
I think CNN's "Are atheists scum?" story was really just a cover: the main point was to make Paula Zahn look half intelligent by bringing in three complete morons to yap about how they love the lordie.
My apologies to any MENSA members, but my old advisor used to refer to MENSA as a feel-good club for underachievers. "Hey look, I may have only done xxxx with my life, but look at my IQ!!"
"Look at famous atheists and see what happened to them"
Just a guess... they all get old and eventually die, just like the rest of humanity?
Of course, I emailed CNN, not because anyone told me to, but because I can't let vile, depraved stupidity go unanswered.
"Actually, PZ, you might want to check up on the fate of O'Hair and son (robbed, killed, and buried by some fellow atheists). "
There is no evidence that the killers were atheists at all. In fact considering the known prison makeup and profiles of those prone to criminal behavior they were very likely fundie Chrisitans. They were just hired people. Unlike the Jesus Crispies Atheists do not consider religion or lack of religion to be a job qualification.
PZ is my higher power and if I ever go back to AA I will appeal to him. Or Him.
PZ, here's my all-time favorite idiotic quote from Schlussel (though that "sect of Muslims" quote is now on my list ;-) ). In response to a NY Times article about a study out of Japan concerning the different types of ear wax found in different peoples (Asians have "dry" ear wax while Europeans and Africans have "wet" ear wax).
She says that the article failed to mention that it was also shown that "Native" Americans (her quotes) have wet ear wax, showing that they are genetically similar to Asians, ergo proof that they came over the Bering Strait. So far, nothing too idiotic, but then she writes:
"So whom did THEY steal the land from? Somebody else, obviously. Yet, no "Dances With Wolves" and "Into the West" from Hollywood about that."
Uh, what?!
After receiving plenty of comments pointing out how stupid she is, she just makes it worse:
"To all the liberal idiots who've left dumb, insulting comments on this entry (and if you insult me, your comments will be deleted), as directed by similarly intellectually-challenged lefty websites, I'm well aware Indians came here over the Bering Strait, which you'd realize if you actually bothered to read what I wrote below in this entry. I simply quoted the NYTimes that this was yet more proof. Yet, there is no proof they were the first here. And even if they were, this is yet more proof that they originated in ASIA. Hello? . . . This is yet more evidence that we did NOT steal THEIR land. It means it was not THEIRS to begin with."
I don't believe in a higher power, but I do believe in mild-mannered biology professors.
By now I recognize this as a common tactic: Throw out insane slanders on a marginalized group, then when the less cool heads among them respond with predictable and somewhat understandable outrage and insults, cherry-pick their comments and use them as representative of the whole.
Let's just hope Debs isn't web-savvy enough (and if the whole "keyword" thing isn't indicative enough of that, then the all-caps thing should be) to link back to "that evil blog" and release the harpies...
I've linked to this in my own response here:
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/258737.htm
Since you asked, PZ, here is a link to God's atheist blog:
http://www.blogofthegods.com/
After linking to God, He assured me that I would not face eternal hellfire. If you're smart, you'll hedge your bets and link to him as well. It's not worth the risk of not linking, right?
I contemplated joining Mensa when I was, oh, about ten or eleven. Mostly, I wanted a place where my friends and I could go and play our higher-dimensional generalizations of Monopoly with other people. Life intervened, however, and I never bothered to take the test; eventually, I read Isaac Asimov's description of his time in Mensa and realized that it just wasn't the subculture for me. I kept wowing people with my stupendous intellect right the way through high school, but I also took every opportunity I could to point my classmates to places where they could learn things for themselves, on the hypothesis that I had really had a fantastic series of lucky breaks. Thanks to happy accidents and some parental good judgment, I had found a whole farrago of good books and TV documentaries.
In middle and high school, I was constantly being surprised at how poorly we were being taught, compared to how able we were to learn. There's more intellect in that teenage wasteland than we were given credit for, though I'm sure a lamentable amount of brainpower decays through lack of stimulation.
Sigh.
At any rate, my essentially populist beliefs about science and education probably disqualify me from any high-IQ societies, either Mensa or those beyond (the domain of Christopher Michael Langan and his ilk).
Actually, I am with Debbie. What do you atheists want? If you really feel you are such an important part of America, why don't you all pick a sharpie pen and start writing the word DELUSION above "IN GOD WE TRUST" on all the American currency and then we'll if you deserve to be included in TV discussions!
.... ;)
The only thing this idiot got right was that PZ was god. Otherwise, she's totally off her rocker.
There is no evidence that the killers were atheists at all. In fact considering the known prison makeup and profiles of those prone to criminal behavior they were very likely fundie Chrisitans. They were just hired people. Unlike the Jesus Crispies Atheists do not consider religion or lack of religion to be a job qualification.
I particularly doubt that Waters worked for the organization without being an atheist. And all three were reported to be atheists, at least:
But pinning all the blame on the APD may be too easy. The O'Hairs' fellow atheists also deserve some blame. Right after the three atheists disappeared, Ellen Johnson, the new head of American Atheists, assured reporters that nothing was amiss. "Madalyn is just fine," she said. "This has nothing to do with her health." bolding added
Could be wrong? Sure, but it's the evidence we have.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/b8ykm
http://weeklywire.com/ww/06-07-99/austin_pols_feature1.html
Should have made that last post differently:
There is no evidence that the killers were atheists at all. In fact considering the known prison makeup and profiles of those prone to criminal behavior they were very likely fundie Chrisitans. They were just hired people. Unlike the Jesus Crispies Atheists do not consider religion or lack of religion to be a job qualification.
I particularly doubt that Waters worked for the organization without being an atheist. And all three were reported to be atheists, at least:
But pinning all the blame on the APD may be too easy. The O'Hairs' fellow atheists also deserve some blame. Right after the three atheists disappeared, Ellen Johnson, the new head of American Atheists, assured reporters that nothing was amiss. "Madalyn is just fine," she said. "This has nothing to do with her health." bolding added
http://weeklywire.com/ww/06-07-99/austin_pols_feature1.html
Could be wrong? Sure, but it's the evidence we have.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/b8ykm
And the part of this post that will be quoted is.....
/
Clearly, we need to impound all the Catholics and Jews and children of hippies immediately
/
Does she get up in the morning and say to herself: who am I going to con today?
I don't understand these types - the Wellses and the Schlussels and the Boones. Is it just stupidity? Years of self-deception? Brainwashing? What makes them the way they are? Partly, it's seems to be just plain stubbornness. Refusal to back down from a position, no matter how wrong. Partly, an unwillingness to renounce beliefs that have to be sustained if one is to earn one's paycheck.
Why do some people wake up, eventually, and face the fact that they were deluding themselves about God or psychic powers or the evils of evolution? Why, why, why?
If she is in any way representative of the general mental condition of the American populace, we are in deep, deep trouble.
It's going to be painful if her fans troll over here to defend her.
They won't be the sharpest knives in the drawer.
So does Ms. Schlussel consider the Christian fanatics that bomb abortion clinics to be extremist wackjobs? Or is it only Muslim wackjobs she has a problem with. hmmmmm
I'm pretty sure Adam Gadahn was raised Christian, or at least his family was Christian (his father converted, which Schlussel, being ostensibly Jewish herself, should realize makes him no longer a Jew by Jewish custom). I just read a New Yorker profile on him, but don't recall anything about him being an atheist. Personally, I think she's making stuff up as she goes along.
Funny, though, when you think about how much Christians love to share stories of atheists who converted to Christianity.
Strange, I looked up Gadahn at answers.com - nary a whisper of the word 'atheism'.
I tried to read comments at her alleged blog - but damn thing seems to extend out past the farthest right-hand margin.
I'd have to call that 'unintelligent design', hehehehe.
Glen, the "three atheists" are the O'Hairs.
I think New Age pseudo-Buddhism is more popular.
Does anyone else have a problem with the formatting on Schlussel's blog? Each paragraph is a single line, some about 6 times as wide as my monitor. Either she can't even figure out how to format her blog, or else it's Bill Gates' fault. I'm using Firefox on Linux.
(I note the spelling correction.)
I liked it when House MD called Andre the Giant his higher power.
Unfortunately, I followed the link to Debbie's blog.
This is a deeply stupid and hate-filled woman.
Scary.
Dull knives don't concern me terribly much. I mean, most of the ones in the Dilbonian Hate Mail thread would have had serious difficulty with melted butter. And, if I need help keeping my temper even and refraining from arguing where there's no point, there's always Daniel Martin's killfile script (requires Firefox and Greasemonkey).
So now that she kindly informed me that all atheists will turn into Muslim extremists I should stop saying to crazy fundies (redundant) that I'll solve everything by placing some candles for satan, hehehe. Now I'll have to find a Mosque to light candle in ;)
Much as it may startle you, it appears debbie got Adam Gadhan's story WRONG, at least according to the eratically reliable Wikipedia. Considering Debbie versus Wiki, I'll trust Wiki more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Gadahn
So apparently he wasn't raised as an atheist anyway. So not only is her theory of atheists becoming Muslim fanatics crap, her evidence is crap.
Pleasantly, this particular Wikipedia article has footnotes. (Does Britannica?) Adam Yahiye Gadahn himself wrote the following, in a 1995 essay entitled "Becoming Muslim":
Wikipedia also gets some biographical information from The New Yorker, specifically Raffi Khatchadourian's "Azzam the American" (15 January 2007).
I thought the Killfile was only good for blocking one person at a time. Not effective on a horde of rabid chihuahuas that will skim PZ's post, ignore the comments, screech "persecution" at us, possibly throw in a Gish gallop, and then leave forever, their rage sated, their fears stoked, and their preconceptions unscathed.
Without getting into the religious identity of the murderer, about which I have no inside information: yes, O'Hair met a very nasty end. But was this the example Schlussel picked? Nope. And even if she had, it could be countered by charges of cherry-picking, along with a list of Christians and Jews who met bad endings at the hands of other believers. For example that Jew Jesus, nailed up on a cross to satisfy a crowd of other Jews- nasty business, that.
&%$#@ typekey. Oh, forget it.
If we combine Debbi with one of these lighter elements, will we get a solid, liquid, or a gas?
I vote gas.
Well, no American atheists have the visibility of Dawkins
That reminds me- Bill Maher's show will be back next week won't it? What about him? He may be out promoting that and could kill two birds with one stone here.
If Debbie Schlussel is the go-to-girl for religious discussions on TV, then the religious have bigger problems than us meanie atheists and our blog posts. This is the same woman who seriously asked if terrorists really could sneak snakes on a plane:
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2006/07/snakes_on_a_pla_2.html
Glen, the "three atheists" are the O'Hairs.
Oops, quite so. I forgot that there were three victims as well as something like three perpetrators. Thanks.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/b8ykm
If they leave forever, then there's no way we can scathe their preconceptions. I might as well save my eyes the trouble of seeing those comments as I browse the threads for reasonable and interesting things. (Pessimistic, perhaps, but I'll go with it.)
Hey, PZ...
Just read the post...
Poetic, PZ...simply poetic...
That Who? comment really cracked me up...
As scary as it is, it's important to know what these wack-jobs are saying.
I've been thinking about who will be the first people "disappeared" when fascism comes to America.
Muslims, obviously. Other immigrant groups, probably. Intellectuals, always. Atheists? Debbie is making the case.
I think we'll get a supercritical fluid because it would be able to diffuse through "solid evidence" like a gas and at the same time tries to dissolve critical thought like a liquid.
"I might as well save my eyes the trouble of seeing those comments "
That's sort of my point though. You can't filter by content of posts or level of insanity. Unless someone tells me different, I'm pretty sure you can only filter by username. So you'd have to see those posts before blocking them, and once you did, it would be a pointless gesture, since 9 times out of 10 that particular username would never post again.
Fear can make intelligent people stupid. It would seem that Deb is so afraid of Muslim violence against Jews that she's fallen for the lie that Christian republicans are the only reliable ally against Islamic terrorism, while atheist liberals only want to undermine good christian values and let western society fall to the wolves.
[sigh] I guess she's never heard Dawkins criticize the religious nature of the 9-11 attacks.
Rey Fox:
You make an entirely valid point (and don't think I haven't considered finding a better way to filter comments). I just like sparing myself the irritation of seeing hateful nonsense more than once — and I can always hit kill at the first disagreeable word. Avoiding the recurrent trolls is also a pleasant prospect: even if only a few visitors make a lot of remarks, that's still a lot of remarks.
So, in the interest of pushing PZ up the Most Active list, let's brainstorm about better ways to do the troll-killing job. What's a better way to sort and filter comments, and for that matter, what improvements should we demand from the Seed tech people? Hey, I actually get paid (at least in part) to study online discourse, so believe me, I'll be interested.
Look at famous atheists and what happened to them. Adam Gadahn a/k/a Azzam Al-Amriki . . .
Doesn't "famous" mean someone's heard of this guy?
"Hey, I actually get paid (at least in part) to study online discourse, so believe me, I'll be interested."
You ought to call Mike Rowe, get on TV. ;)
I really do not think Debbie Schlussel is serious.
The beliefs she claims to have are too much of a Caricature of a right-wing nutbag. She does not say things in a hopes to make herself appear to be on a moral high-ground, even when she claims she is. Let me explain...
For example, when you see most religious nuts defend their position, they either say it with anger, which they think represents the righteousness of God, or they say it calm, like someone representing a loving God. Deb simply does not do so, and claims she is right while smirking the whole of the time.
On political issues it is much the same. Most people who have extreme views try and temper them to make them appear more reasonable, yet Deb does nothing of the kind. When choosing between 3 views, she simply chooses the one most in-line with what she thinks the deeply stupid right-wing majority would like to hear, without pussy footing around the fact that they themselves are not educated enough to articulate a case for this position without making themselves look like the Hills people from Deliverance.
In the end, I think this is just a business for her, and she does not really give a damn about the issues she discusses.
I'm particularly annoyed by Schlussel's conflation of "not believing in a Higher Power" with, apparently, "not believing we should have to obey or follow anyone but ourselves." That first phrase is a kind of popular expression for "metaphysical naturalism," -- and has nothing to do with the second concept, which deals with how we ought to conduct ourselves with one another. Misinterpreting and exploiting this kind of superficial resemblance is indicative of shallow thinking -- and the kind of bigotry that goes along with it.
Haven't you heard? The 9-11 attacks were carried out by Atheist Iraqis. Oh, and they were environmentalists and Masons too.
"Haven't you heard? The 9-11 attacks were carried out by Atheist Iraqis. Oh, and they were environmentalists and Masons too. "
Don't forget feminists. And gay. The wingnuts blame everything on Teh Gays and feminsts.
"Haven't you heard? The 9-11 attacks were carried out by Atheist Iraqis. Oh, and they were environmentalists and Masons too. "
Don't forget feminists. And gay. The wingnuts blame everything on Teh Gays and feminsts.
PZ:
Oh! Azzam the American! The October Surprise of 2004! LOL!
Greg Peterson:
Ah, really? What about Captain Unelected and Richard the Lying-Hearted?
I remember Debbie Schlussel from my time at grad school at University of Michigan (1988-90). She was always a grandstanding nincompoop blowhard. She always tried every controversial means to get recognized on campus. I believe she was a member of Young Americans for Freedom, the latest crop of whom appeared at MLK rallies with bullhorns, trying to get themselves beat up for their racist insults.
Deb also appeared regularly on Detroit local news shows, as some kind of "spokesperson" for the rethuglican viewpoint du jour. To say she was shrill is an insult to shrillness. She also made a run for political office during the 90's (I forget which one), and lost.
Perhaps the best thing to do is ignore her and her putrid website, but then again, it is good to keep up with the zeitgeist. Unfortunately, I think she does reflect the mindset of quite a few ignorant, misinformed, in-need-of-some-psych-wonderdrug individuals who keep getting pooped out of the US's pathetic educational system.
Based on limited research, the right appears to claim DS because she is Teh Hot. Apparently that's scarce among the nuttier fringe.
So if I'm the atheist daughter of a Catholic ex-hippie and a diehard agnostic biology professor, and I have spent time in Egypt and don't think most Muslims are really as bad as people like to think they are... this makes me... carry the three...
Damn. Apparently, I am a baby-eating Nazi.
"A Muslim prayer at a high school football game in Dearbornistan? Suddenly, when the "Religion of Peace" is involved, atheists boast extreme tolerance and display ultimate deference. No lawsuits. Ever. And the Muslim prayers continue."
Dearborn, according to several searches I just did, is the second largest Muslim city outside the Middle East (Paris is the first). 95% of the high school is Muslim, including 52 out of 53 football players. Several grads have been arrested for suspcion of terrorism.
So, um, I really doubt the atheists are boasting extreme tolerance. If I were an atheist at that school, my reasons for not speaking up would include, you know, not wanting to get blown up. Or beaten up. Or even harassed.
Sigh... I still can't bring myself to watch that video, you know.
les,
I am so avoiding a comment about selection and evolution right now.
However, in all seriousness, perhaps its a Coulter/Malkin thing. They're selling the fantasy of a hot, aggressive, yet oh-so-republican (and thus of course traditional) woman. It's fanservice, perhaps.
les: It seems to me like the Right has a pretty good stock of Aryan femmebots.
"...suprisingly a member of MENSA apparently. But I've guess we've all met people who are academically able but socially retarded."
Although I regularly encounter people who lower the apparent intellectual standard required to be MENSA-stic, Schlussel's inclusion really is an eye-opener, because she doesn't seem academically able either. She claims to speak at least four languages, but based on how she writes, English evidently isn't among them, and I'm not saying that merely because she's a strident asshole.
Oh my FSM. Reading Debbie made my brain melt out my nose. Well, actually trying to follow her logic melted my brain.
Heretofore I have never understood the phenomenon of feeling shame over another's behavior, when the other shares some common denominator with you. (you know, ethnicity, race or religion).
Now I get it.
Suddenly I'm ashamed to have ovaries.
Björk is way hotter than any wingnut femmebot and, not coincidentally, could beat all of them up. While wearing a swan dress.
(From a 2004 interview in Diva magazine.)
Between "I'm surprised these atheists would be so obedient to a higher power" and the thing Andrew posted where Schlussel says the Native Americans obviously stole North America from its previous occupants, my eyes won't stop rolling.
Wow, PZ - GREAT POST!!!
Debbie Schlussel is a hack - I've been reading her blog for a while (sometimes I need to increase the temperature of my blood) and have actually written her on a couple of occasions. She can't seem to get her facts straight, but as long as she can hate on Islam (and now apparently atheism), she'll spew it.
Karen Hunter I had never heard of before this CNN episode. I just checked her Wikipedia entry, and it looks like half of it deals with her 'views on atheism'. Ha, it would be great if that was what she is remembered for going forward.
Anyways, I chose not to e-mail Debbie or Karen, but I did e-mail Stephen A. Smith, thanking him for representing tolerance and decency.
I'm not an atheist myself (actually Jewish), but I most definitely believe in freedom, justice, and equality. Obviously, Ms. Schlussel has no respect for what I believe in. (Including Judaism? DS: "This is a Christian nation")
Liz Ditz -
Don't be ashamed about your ovaries! We haven't yet proven that D Schlussel also has a pair of those. Judging by her Ann Coulter sized adam's apple, she might have a pair of something else.
Now, if I could just convince myself that she's not really Jewish, and not really from Detroit, I could stop feeling so ashamed of myself :)
Wow. I'm a Hebrew-speaking, Canadian atheist who was raised nominally Protestant by Scottish people...and I know four different ways of wearing a hijab. I'm Debbie Schlussel's worst nightmare! MUAHAHAHAHAH!!!
How do you think I feel, sharing a cladistic grouping with the hateful troglodyte?
Isn't anyone going to mention that her blog is stylistically heinous? I mean I couldn't even begin to read all the comments because they're so poorly presented it hurt my eyes. Then I noticed her response IN ALL CAPS and I just stopped trying.
I think the all caps things makes her dumber than anything offensive she could ever say. Totally uncalled for.
That's awesome, there's no need to mock these people when they claim things like "all atheists will become Muslim extremists". I guess that means we're really screwed here in Sweden, seeing how we're 83% of us doesn't believe in a personal god.
Let the atheist jihad begin.....
Oh, and extra geek credits to PZ for referencing Douglas Adams' proof for the non-existence of god:
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
i guess being articulate is not an important characteristic for people "appearing" with paula zahn. how did this person become a "tv star"? it's really depressing when all it takes any more to be "famous" is to be incredibly thin in an appropriate region of your brain. and tangentially, what's up with the complete lack of discussion in the "news reports" of anna nicole smith's obvious drug use and its involvement in her death? this is some crazy bizarre world we're living in. i keep forgetting that the floor is the ceiling and the ceiling is the floor. someone slap me, quick.
Remember, Alexandra Pelosi, Nancy's daughter, said in an interview that allowing one's children to become "unchurched" is undesirable because they're then in danger of becoming religious extremists. It's not just reactionary thugs like Schlussel who are spewing this hateful shit.
"Gadahn, is half-Jewish; are they dangerous?"
Hmm, I suppose you mean "half-Jewish" racially. (Because the expression "half-Jewish" intended in any other manner is inherently meaningless.) Is Myers a little stupid? (Probably.)
"his father converted, which Schlussel, being ostensibly Jewish herself, should realize makes him no longer a Jew by Jewish custom"
That is simply incorrect. I thought evangelical (christian) athiests were "bright"?
Cite some sources or go back to your tinkertoys.
"Cite some sources or go back to your tinkertoys."
It's actually a trick question. The correct answer according to "Jewish custom" (although "law" or halacha would be a better term) is that Gadahn was never Jewish, because his mother was not Jewish. So "half-Jewish" can only have meaning in a racial sense. So Myers is still (probably) a little stupid.
Is this site sort of a Little Green Footballs for christian athiests?
Well, she does seem to be able to make a lot of people who are otherwise very bright jump whenever she wants to. When I see a troll who is as effective as she is, "stupid" isn't the first word that comes to my mind.
I'm curious - what's a Christian atheist?
she's suprisingly a member of MENSA apparently.
"mensa" is Spanish for "stupid female".
I thought evangelical (christian) athiests were "bright"?
No one cares what a moron like you thinks.
Bora calls himself a "Jewish atheist", and so did Isaac Asimov. It's a matter of ancestry, family, and in Asimov's case, the ability to think in Yiddish. Since the word Christian carries nowhere near the baggage that the word Jewish does today, I'm a little at a loss to find meaning in the expression "Christian atheist". I suppose it would be roughly equivalent to "atheist born of Christian parents", stated in a somewhat joking way.
"I'm a little at a loss to find meaning in the expression "Christian atheist""
Simple. For starters an Evangelical Christian Athiest is:
1) An athiest with the "mission" to spread the "good news".
2) Thinks their own beliefs are necessarily superior universal beliefs.
3) Is often obsessed with notions of victimhood despite their own privilege.
4) And they celebrate fucking Christmas. (Maybe they even think Jesus was a "great philosopher.")
5) Critique "all religion as evil and stupid" when they really mean Christianity is evil and stupid because frankly Christianity is all they know about religion. (Sort of the way "Satanists" are Christians.
It's a cultural thing you know. And actually a pretty coherent concept.
How many Jews at this site? I would guess that Jews are disproportionately underrepresented at this site, despite the very high number of Jewish athiests.
So my question is actually a simple empirical question:
Is this a Christian Athiest site? (Because it seems like one to me.)
I had the opposite reaction. If prominent bloggers, or atheist bloggers, or science bloggers, or college professors, or biologists, or Minnesotans are gods, then yeah, I'm not just a theist but a polytheist -- nay, megatheist.
Somehow, I doubt those gods deserve my worship, though. And hey, under that definition, I too can aspire to godhood!
misspelling "atheist" once is no big deal; it's not that simple a word, nor that important a one.
consistently, repeatedly, continuing to misspell it after others have demonstrated the correct spelling -- indeed, after having quoted others demonstrating the correct spelling -- does, however, begin to create an air of carelessness, at very least.
inventing "definitions" of imaginary terms out of thin air, then using same in an attempt to tar random strangers with a brush the contents of which bear no reasonable nor useful connection with actual reality, actually extant societal subgroups, or approaches to reality that real people actually use... that makes me smell a troll.
You mean the whole "gotcha!" reporting on the little half-Jewish detail didn't tip you off?
I try to be reasonable, I offer some actual data, and look what happens. For the record, I was raised by nonobservant parents of American melting-pot ancestry, including some illicit and undocumentable Native American blood. (People have asked my grandmother, "Which tribe does your family belong to?" I think I would have qualified for various scholarships and whatnot if we'd been able to document where exactly my Cherokee, Choctaw, Creek and/or Chickasaw ancestry entered the picture, but that wasn't the sort of thing nice people discussed back then, so we'll probably never know.) Most of my formative influences — I was mildly surprised when I added it up — were atheists of Jewish backgrounds. Maybe this makes me a "Jewish-atheist atheist."
Mr. Martin's patent potion, which I mentioned in comment #47, is brought out for another dose.
If you don't believe in the Old Testament God, does that make you a Jewish Atheist?
Or do you have to have read the Torah? Or have a "jewish" mother? Do jewish atheists celebrate passover?
ALL regligion is crap. The one in our face in this country is christianity. But if religious jews want to get in our face about our non belief... feel free. But their system is different, they don't want to convert, since if your not genetically jew, they don't really care.
Its not the smartest way to perpetuate your genes and a religion linked to race.
"But if religious jews want to get in our face about our non belief... feel free."
But they don't. That's sort of the point. Jewish culture is non-prosletyzing. Christian culture is. Hence, this culture of Christian Atheists* I've discovered on the internet. Where are the Jewish Atheist scientists? (Probably minding their own business and maintaining more sophisitcated inter-related conceptions of science, the unknown, religion and culture on display here.)
"But their system is different, they don't want to convert, since if your not genetically jew, they don't really care."
That is a strange, ignorant thing to say. And it's not really clear what you mean.
"Most of my formative influences -- I was mildly surprised when I added it up -- were atheists of Jewish backgrounds."
The first one is always a Jew! The universalist cult comes next. (i.e. Jesus Christ)
* My apologies for the consistent spelling error. English is not my first language and the "i before e" spelling rules will always be a source of confusion for me. But really, if that's the best yo ucan do, your Next-Wave Christian fundamentalist movement is in big trouble.
You should see how DaveScot on http://www.uncommondescent.com/archives/2048
sings the praises of Debbie Schlussel and Karen Hunter.
I tried to place a comment to his post, but I doubt he will let it through.
Wow. Sorry I asked.
Though not as sorry as I suspect I'll be after the next question.
So if that's your definition of Christian atheist - how is a Jewish atheist any different (or a Hindu, Buddhist, Islamic or Thorist atheist for that matter)?
Aside from the Christmas thing, obviously (do Jewish Atheists celebrate Hanukkah?).
To answer your simple question, this appears to me to be an atheist blog. Being atheists, I wouldn't have thought what your religious background really matters. Your mileage clearly varies - but whatever floats your boat.
I was just stating that it seems the jews don't try to convert anyone to judaism because they see it as trying to convert a different race to their race... their religion is genetic and belief based.
Even if you follow the teachings of the Torah you'll never really be a jew in their eyes. Or am I wrong?
You're trying to state that jews don't prosletyize because that's a jewish trait...
is it a genetic trait or a cultural trait? And why do you see it as inherently better?
Here's my comment to DaveScot:
Debbie Schlussel is an embarrassment to all Jews, whether they are believers or not. Actually, her islamo- and athiesto-phobia is an embarrassment to all Americans who cherish the democratic principles of the US. Karen Hunter is also an embarrassment to all Christians and Americans. It is funny how she won't let anyone shut her up, but she's telling the atheists to shut up.
Steve_C, I think you are wrong about a few things. At least, you have been misinformed.
Actually, Jews don't proselytize for a number of reasons, some historical (converting people away from the dominant religion has been punishable by death in most places Jews have lived for most of the past couple of millennia) and some theological. Judaism isn't a universalizing religion; Jews don't believe that you need to be a Jew to be spiritually OK. According to Jewish law, only Jews need to observe Jewish law. Other monotheists who observe basic decencies like not murdering are held to be just as worthy of eventual resurrection and all that as Jews are. (Of course, that leaves atheists and polytheists out in the cold, but at least Jews don't believe in a hell for them to go to.) So, why proselytize? Why tell others (or believe about them) that they are all wrong, and get in their faces about why they need to be just like you? I'd say that not doing stuff like that is a plus.
Now, if despite all that someone chooses to convert to Judaism, that's fine. It can be done; there is a conversion process. It should be noted that the conversion doesn't hinge on belief but on behavior. There are no Articles of Faith or anything like that to be accepted. There's a lot of history to take up, because converts become part of the group and "inherit" its common past.
Because of differences like these between Jewish and Christian takes on religion, I think there are some real differences between atheists from Jewish and Christian backgrounds. They are rejecting very different things. So I don't agree with Paul that an atheist is an atheist is an atheist. I'm not sure what point Shmuel is trying to make about the difference, though.
"So if that's your definition of Christian atheist - how is a Jewish atheist any different (or a Hindu, Buddhist, Islamic or Thorist atheist for that matter)? Aside from the Christmas thing, obviously (do Jewish Atheists celebrate Hanukkah."
Belief in god is not compulsory in Judaism as it is with dogmatic (belief-based) religions like Christianity and Islam. So a Jewish atheist is a Jew who doesn't believe in god. There is no inherent contradiction. An orthodox Jew could (theoretically) perform every ritual and rite suggested by Jewish law and custom without holding a single dogmatic belief about god and not be a hypocrite (in the religous sense). In Christianity and Islam which are belief-based religions this would make less sense. Many forms of Buddhism are not theistic. I don't know much about the dogmatic components of Hinduism or Thorism.
But mostly Christian atheists just seem like rather ill informed people of Christian "descent" who have no interest in Christianity so in order to establish something like a moral grounding attack all "Religion" in order to delude themselves into thinking they aren't merely rejecting their own heritage. I don't blame them entirely. Christianity is fucking retarded, with an evil violent history.
"I'm not sure what point Shmuel is trying to make about the difference, though."
Just that most evangelical atheists are people from Christian backgrounds, and this is no coincidence. They're secular missionaries and this sort of active or proseltyzing atheism can in some ways be understood as the "next wave" of christian universalism. You know, it's "ironic."
And all the misinformed ideas re: Jewish "race" is just creepy.
Happily, nm just said the next thing I was thinking about saying.
Shmuel,
Belief in god is not compulsory in Judaism as it is with dogmatic (belief-based) religions like Christianity and Islam. So a Jewish atheist is a Jew who doesn't believe in god. There is no inherent contradiction. An orthodox Jew could (theoretically) perform every ritual and rite suggested by Jewish law and custom without holding a single dogmatic belief about god and not be a hypocrite (in the religous sense).
I've never understood how Judaism can meaningfully qualify as a religion when it is conceived strictly as a form of behavior without any attendant beliefs at all. It's not even a philosophy or ideology or belief system of any kind. One might call it a hobby or a habit.
"Christianity is fucking retarded, with an evil violent history."
but
"mostly Christian atheists just seem like rather ill informed people of Christian "descent" who have no interest in Christianity"
I don't get it, Shmuel. It seems to me like most of those "Christian atheists" probably also understand that Christianity is fucking retarded. It doesn't take a genius, you know. I doubt you are the only one who has reached that conclusion. Maybe you can explain what you base that on.
"I've never understood how Judaism can meaningfully qualify as a religion when it is conceived strictly as a form of behavior without any attendant beliefs at all."
When you've been raised to think all religions are like Christianity this is the result.
"When you've been raised to think all religions are like Christianity this is the result."
Perhaps I'm using bad-quality online dictionaries, but the definitions of religion that I've seen pretty much always involve a set of beliefs, not a set of behaviors. What definition of "religion" do you have in mind?
shmuel,
When you've been raised to think all religions are like Christianity this is the result.
It has nothing to do with being raised to think all religions are like Christianity. Really, how do you define religion, such that your Judaism-as-behavior-alone qualifies as one? What is the meaningful difference between the "religion" of Judaism, as you conceive it, and a mere hobby or interest, like being a theater buff or a science fiction fan or a model railway enthusiast?
There seems to some logical inconsistencies with Shmuels argument.
Apparently Judaism is just a philospohy that requires no belief in god.
What exactly is that philosophy?
Atheist rail against Christianity because of its evangelical nature...
The "jewish" god is equally as nonsensical as the christian or muslim god.
Shmuel seems to have an issue with gentiles... I have a problem being labeled a christian because I'm a fucking ATHEIST.
His logical fallacy is that Atheists (at least the american variety) are just like the christian evangelicals because we want to "convert" people.
I actually don't give a shit if people keep believing in god. Just don't expect me to
give it special respect or sit by and watch them try to make this a "christian" nation.
Where is Shmuel from?
On Adam Gadahn, he's the subject of a long article in a recent New Yorker (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/070122fa_fact_khatchadou…). IIRC, his father was sort of utopian Christian with hippyish qualities. Probably not Christian enough for the right, but hardly atheist or even agnostic.
On the darker side, Gadahn also had an obsession with Lovecraft... Clearly Cthulhu is the gateway Great Old One to islamic militarism...
Paul: Ludwig Feuerbach could almost be called a "Christian atheist", as well as some contemporary Unitarian Universalists ...
PZ:
Oh! Azzam the American! The October Surprise of 2004! LOL!
Greg Peterson:
Ah, really? What about Captain Unelected and Richard the Lying-Hearted?