We're building up a biased sample that damns an entire profession — Dr Guliuzza, Dr Egnor (who seems to be adopting a more traditional creationist stance), and now Dr Keith Holmes (submitted by Transcription Factor), and so many more — and I thought maybe I should correct that by inviting everyone to name M.D.s and other health care professionals who are not creationist loons. I suspect the majority of doctors (and engineers!) are sensible, intelligent, educated people who have no problem with good science and think creationism is crackpottery.
Let's have an open thread where the doctors and health care professionals and engineers can proudly deny the creationist spirit. Think of it as a reference and reality check next time someone feels like groaning over yet another creationist M.D.
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Hi, my name is Robert; I have a B.S. in electrical engineering, and I'm a proud secular humanist.
Yo. I'm King Aardvark (not my real name of course). I have an MSc in civil engineering and I've been getting pissed off at creationist engineers for years.
I'm an engineer (M.S. Computer Science) and a firm believer in science. Creationism and its illogic make me weep.
(Yes, I'm an atheist.)
Hello,
I'm Ben, I'm a UK nephrologist, and I deny creationism (and the holy ghost for that matter).
And I'd be fairly sure that most UK doctors feel the same (about the former, anyway).
I'm pursuing a BS in Mechanical Engineering with plans for post-graduate work and a career in that field, and I'm a proud atheist. My "sister" is a pre-med student and a Wiccan but accepts and endorses evolution. My boss has an MS in Mechanical Engineering and habitually confuses Weak Atheism with agnosticism but also accepts and endorses evolution. Unfortunately I think that's about the extent of my personal acquaintances.
Dan from Idaho - I'm a nuclear engineer, and very pro-evidence and pro-rationality. I also live in a deep-red, theocratic part of the country, where Bush support is still over 50%, probably. I've got a child approaching middle-school years, so I appreciate Pharyngula as a resource for helping me be aware of what those sneaky Creationists are up to.
I have a BA in Physics, BS in Electrical Engineering and a MS in Computer science. I am a proud secular humanist.
I'm a Chemical Engineer (albeit I have a Degree in Biology, too, so I'm vaccinated against creationism) and I certainly don't buy into any of the sad nonsense that is Intelligent Design.
To be honest, I have much more respect for an honest YEC literalist who will stand up for their sincere (if insane and wildly contrafactual) beliefs than for those weaselly DI / creation science / whatever clowns.
I think I'll go evolve me some tentacles or something. Cheers!
'Doctors are trained to spot bullshit' - Ben Goldacre
My name is Jorge. I have a BS in geology and own a biomedical equipment repair company. Needless to say, Creationism/ID is BS. Santa Claus for adults.
P.S. I love John Paul. Also, George and Ringo
I'm a biomedical engineer with a Ph.D. I think creationism is nonsense. Medicine and engineering are science-based disciplines, but the vast majority of practicing medical doctors and engineers are not scientists. In our professional activities we're often more focused on what works than why it works. That sometimes leads to adopt positions that seem reasonable on the surface (given our various biases) but that are unsupported by theory. However, that certainly doesn't justify holding ourselves out as scientific experts. One of the fundamental principles of engineering ethics is that you must not practice outside your area of expertise.
I'm a surgical oncologist with a Ph.D. in Cellular Physiology, and my blog speaks for itself regarding where I stand on evolution and on how much pseudoscience irritates me.
Howdy,
I'm a BSEE and practising automotive engineer. I'm a rational atheist who works with engineers who's beliefs range from atheism (not so rare, but very quiet about it), the most commonly found nominally religious (church attendance every month or so), to one very religious member of a mega-church who once suggested to me that evolutionary theory has some holes in it.
I spent some time correcting him, but it may not have been prudent to do so. He's my boss.
We haven't discussed it since.
My name is Raul. I am an electrical engineer. After following for several years the "controversy", I agree that creationism and ID are pseudoscience. I think the "Balooney Detection Kit" that Carl Sagan mentioned in "The Demon Haunted World" should be taught in schools.
I like how a discussion which is basically a bunch of people standing up for the honest truth and saying "we're all in it together" is now the fourth most active thread at ScienceBlogs.
Master's degree in Systems & Computer Engineering here. Active on the pro-evo side (mostly under my real name) on talk.origins from 1991-2004 -- and I was a Christian at the start of that period (I'm an atheist now). Even during my fundamentalist period (well before that), I could see that the major arguments coming out of the creationist side were bunkum.
I have a longer career in engineering than I like to admit, and a Ph.D. in computer science. No pseudo-science here, thank you.
I'm an MD and a researcher. I'm also an atheist and believe in evolution, because they are the best explanations of the available evidence. I believe in gravity and a sun-centered solar system with a (more or less) round earth for the same reasons. Actually, I believe more strongly in evolution than gravity. Frankly, some parts of the theory of gravity sound pretty shaky to me. How does gravity attract at a distance without a particle to carry the force? It's probably my lack of knowledge, not a problem with the theory, though: I spend a lot more time working with the results of evolution than thinking about esoteric points of graviational theory.
Med student and genetics researcher... Can't believe that anyone who passed undegrad biology can believe in that crap. Religion can do terrible things, even to educated minds apparently.
I'm an atheist and have a B.S. in Computer Science, for what it's worth (:
Oddly, I told a friend of mine that I'm an atheist and she didn't agree. "To be an atheist, you have to explicitly believe that God doesn't exist," she insisted. "You're just agnostic." I believe that it's foolish to hold an unsupported position, and I believe that there is no objective evidence to support God's existence. Further, I believe that all the subjective evidence I've seen is easily explainable through known, natural processes. Somehow, this isn't enough for her. Oh well; I don't much care which box she files me in (:
I started out as a Christian, and a young earth creationist. The first people who made me seriously consider that the world is more than 10,000 years old were the geology professor and Biblical interpretation teacher I had at Oral Roberts University, of all places. The former presented the physical evidence (and suggested I read Hugh Ross), and the latter provided a plausible interpretation of Genesis 1-2 that allows for an older universe. (It boiled down to: it's a poem, not a historical account.) Eventually, and for unrelated reasons, I left the religion altogether... but I'm surprised to have found traces of reason in such a place.
Hi, I'm Bob. I have a BME degree 1985, and even then I thought creatinoism/ID was bunk. As well as religious belief. My brother (scientist/game programmere) is also atheist and a-ID.
Another quiet voice in the crowd.
i'm a software engineer and i think creationism is Comedy Gold.
Dr. Dean Edell is a resolute defender of rational policies in health and science. He likes evidence-based medicine, as opposed to the new-age nonsense we get from many other high-profile media doctors and practitioners.
Do software engineers count? I don't have an alphabet soup to put after my name (I dropped out of college after one year), but keeping up on real scientific research is something I do on a daily basis, and the battle against pseudoscience is something I have been involved in even in high school when Reagan was in office. And I am by no means a creationist. Hell, when I was in 2nd grade the ideas of evolution made perfect sense to me -- I had the usual 2nd grade fascination with dinosaurs then, and the idea that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago and there were fossils to dig up was way cooler than anything the boring old preacher could tell me on Sunday mornings.
One point that has always bothered me about creationist MDs, even more than the question of how do they cope with antibiotic resistance: How do they explain DNA? How do they account for polymorphisms? How do they deal with the obvious evidence of evolution within the human species that leads to sub-populations with characteristics adaptive in their native environment but maladaptive elsewhere (ie skin color, sickle trait, Rh factor, etc.)? But even moreso, if you've ever worked with DNA you know that it is almost impossible to keep the little @#^$@ from mutating. PCR reactions, for example, have known error rates and distinguishing between a true and false positive can be quite difficult (ie if you're amplifying for RAS mutations, there is a certain chance of introducing a RAS mutation during the amplification process). So if all species were created as they currently are, there must be an active force that keeps evolution from occurring as it would in the absence of such a force. Where's the evidence for said force? (Alternately, if you believe in "microevolution" but not "macroevolution", how do you keep the DNA from making that fatal jump to speciation?)
I'm a electrical engineer, and while I'm also christian, science is based in reality and so far we haven't seen any magical events we haven't been able to ascribe some law to. The second we start believing there are things in this world that we will never be able to explain, then we might as well give up on science.
My name is Chuck, and I am a systems engineer for one of the largest companies in the world. I consider myself a proud secular humanist, and think creationists are a bunch of terrified nutjobs. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and thus far, there is no evidence whatsoever.
I have a B.S. and Ph.D. in bioengineering, and just hearing the words "creationism" and "intelligent design" makes me mad. Here's for evolution and all legitimate, properly conducted science.
I'm a practising engineer with MA and MSc degrees in engineering and I don't believe in fairies of any sort.
I'll proxy for my fiancee. She's a geotech engineer and does not seem to believe in irreducibly complex rock formations.
I've got a PhD in Cybernetics (Computer Science meets Engineering meets Robots taking over the world), and am now doing post-doctoral work relating to pharmacy/neurobiology.
I'm also an atheist, and I actively fight against Creationism wherever I come across it, along with plenty of other pseudosciences. It also intensely annoys me that so many engineers fall into the "Well *I* couldn't have designed it..." mental trap.
In an office of around 20 engineers, there are only two of us non-creationist and the other guy recently removed his evolution fish from his car - I think they are getting to him...
Clinical geneticist; dysmorphologist; atheist (ex-Christian). I give my medical students (Belfast) lectures containing evolutionary material, and I've just had some great feedback from our first-years (suck on *that*, Egnor!). I'm much encouraged by their willingness to learn. I also recently won a debate with a priest on the ethics of stem cells (I had lost the previous *2* encounters), so I'll say that medical students are getting smarter :-)
I'm an electronic and software engineer with a B.S. in electronics. I've been a vocal and confirmed atheist since age 7 (escape from a catholic upbringing in the 1960s). I think creationism is utter rubbish.
Evolution has long been the best way to explain the world we inhabit. Unlike the creationist cretins, we're happy to admit that we still have things to learn and research.
Creationism just wants to stop people thinking about questions that the religions can't answer.
The other day, I asked a religious person why they don't believe in the tooth fairy or the easter bunny. Their reply was "that would be a silly superstition". When I then asked what the difference between those, creationism and genesis was, he got very heated and defensive, but didn't have an answer.
The wingnuts would like to launch another age of unreason. We must resist.
B.S. in Nuclear Engineering from the Missouri School of Mines and Metallurgy here. A short announcement:
1. Creationism is a sham.
2. Metaphysical Naturalism, specifically Carrier Naturalism, is the most reasonable world-view and best fits all available evidence.
3. Girls and booze are nice.
That is all...
Hmm, been there, done that. My undergrad degree is Computer Science. But then, faintly echoing the late famous evolutionist John Maynard Smith who found his degree in aeronautical engineering led to a "boring" career, I moved to where the conceptual action was and did a grad degree in 'ethology' (evolutionary origins of animal behaviors). These concepts lead to far richer understandings of human nature than given by any spirit-became-flesh narrative.
Example: my research colleague has an M.D. and a Ph.D. in public health... and is a Young Earth Creationist! Some professors here at this University signed the dissent from Darwinism petition! Idiots roam free!
Mechanical Engineer, here. Finally admitted my atheism after having held on to the title of agnostic far longer than I should.
Carrier Naturalism eh? - that's this guy, Richard Carrier? Looks interesting... I'm bemused that his discussion of his cover art doesn't address the remarkable similarity of his 'spacecraft' to some viruses...
I'm a safety engineer finishing a Master's of Engineering. I deny creationism and all other supernatural, faith-before-evidence "explanations" for how the world works.
Thank you for starting this thread: my teeth gnash, gnash, gnash when I see the entirety of my discipline damned by a subset of arrogant idiots.
Hi, I have a PhD in Chemical Engineering and I am an atheist and humanist, and I think that science is the path to a better understanding of ourselves and the world. Needless to add, I do not believe in Creationism or ID nonsense.
Project Steve comes to mind. I always love the short lists IDiots trump up as an appeal to authority, as if they think they can beat scientists (who deal daily in citing others who know what they're talking about) at their own game.
I like to cite that Project Steve list. Fun fact, Stephen Hawking was number 300 on the list! Or so, I could be off slightly.
Maybe ya'll could straighten this arrogant twit
(mechanical engineer) out...
Chiming in on behalf of my Dad, a Civil Engineer out of the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology. He gave me me his copy of Ancestor's Tale and is sure I'll love it as much as he did. His interest in science and ability to think logically influenced my own interest in science. Guliuzza is no credit to the School of Mines, but my Dad sure is. BTW, the campus has a very nice museum, with great fossils, gems, and minerals. Go see it if you are in the neighborhood!
I work for a non-creationist mechanical and software engineer, and am a future atheist non-creationist mechanical engineer.
M.S. Mech Eng from the University of Florida here.
Q: How do you know god is a civil engineer?
A: Who else would run a waste pipeline through a recreational area.
I'm an engineer and most certainly an atheist. Always have been. From a proud family of atheists!
Putting in a good word for my brother-in-law too. He's an aerospace engineer and a Catholic, but not even slightly a creationist.
hi, my name is dan. i am a PhD candidate in mechanical engineering at the university of maryland. i am a recovering catholic. i'm a big fan of thinking. and reason. and deduction. i consider myself an "applied physicist".
i believe creationism and IDism beliefs come quite simply from ignorance. not simply ignorance of a fact or two or a trend or two... but from the whole scientific process. sadly it seems more and more that those younger than i are coming out of school with an severe inability to critically think.
i think the growing numbers of myth-believers out there is in part due to more and more acceptance and adoption of the trend of "teaching to the test" because you don't have to actually *think* about what you've just read... but simply be able to regurgitate it on to a piece of paper... which is how so many people get degrees in fields they clearly needed to fake their way through to some extent.
i don't just blame schools for this. i blame parents.
Although I suspect one guy I knew was a creationist, Caltech is not known as a hotbed of religious fundamentalism. I am a proud atheist and a retired professional mechanical engineer. So get Wilkins off my back!
Hi, I'm a med student with less than a year left (and I get to work as a physician this summer). I'm glad to say that as far as I know, none of my course mates has said anything that would make me think anyone of them doubts evolution.
I'm a BSE from an accredited Christian college and work as a software engineer. Thanks to scienceblogs and Panda's Thumb I've come to appreciate how my experience with designing technological systems corroborates with the way evolution "designs" biological systems. The "evidence" of "design" is evidence of evolution at work!
I have a PhD in electronic engineering and a BSc in computer science. I research the use of evolution and other bio-inspired themes in computer science. I am also a proud infidel!
Hello, I'm an anesthesiologist. I follow the evidence wherever it goes. Therefore, creationism and religion are not part of my worldview. Have a very nice day!
Do I get extra points if I never believed in the mystic mumbles for the 35 years before I became an engineer as well as the 25 years since then? For all that nontheists show such a miserably low % on census forms (only 25% here in Calgary) it seems that most of my engineering, science and medicine based friends are of that persuasion. I cannot think of ever hearing a pro-creationist viewpoint mentioned in any of the wide ranging discussions I've had with my professional buddies.
I have degrees in both engineering (chemical) and science (chemistry), and am not a creationist.
While we're shattering stereotypes, there's one person where I work who has a degree in microbiology ... and is a creationist.
Take that, "Salem hypothesis"!
I have a BE and PhD in electrical engineering and I teach at the largest university in New Zealand. I am an atheist and wholeheartedly renounce my Roman Catholic upbringing. Many of my professorial colleagues are devout Christians, some with fundie credentials. It amazes me that they can be so blinkered, dismissive, irrational, one-eyed and bloody-minded when it comes to anything not related to their specialty areas.
OT: Why am I "ScienceBreath" given my engineering roots? In grad school I flatted with a couple of law-student friends. Whenever I tried to enlighten them about the workings of the physical world they would say "Fuck up, science breath." It was that kind of flat.
Canadian, Atheist, Physician
I'm an electrical engineer with 25 years of experience; I have only a lowly B.S. in physics. Creationism and Intelligent Design are one of the tools used to keep the rabble in line and mega-churches raking in the big bucks. I guess it's easier to spend your life being told what to do and how to think.
One of my fellow EE's at my last job was an ardent ID'er, he didn't enjoy it at all when I pointed out his serious back pain was related to the really poor manner in which his back had been designed.
Secular humanism for me.
This is starting to sound like an AA meeting......
My name is Tony...
I have an undergraduate degree in Physics and have spent most of my career working as a semiconductor engineer. I maintain a healthy respect for the life sciences, and I recognize evolutionary biology as being one of most powerful tool for understanding the natural world.
I believe that any form of religious pseudo-science is detrimental to science education and should be kept out the classroom.
I don't believe a public classroom is the place to "teaching the controversy". If ID proponents think they have a valid point, they can submit their claims to a peer-reviewed journal just like the rest of us.
I have a BS in Biomedical Engineering and am currently doing my PhD in the same subject. I firmly reject creationist and ID and I use evolution in my research all the time even though my research subject has no obvious connection to evolution. Many other people in my program, both grad students and professors, have also said they reject creationism and ID (I think the term one used was "crooks and illiterate idiots"). I have only met one person who has said that he accepts ID (a former MD, actually, although there are other former MD's who reject it) and none that accept creationism.
I'm a family doc doing non-clinical work in Pennsylvania and I deny the creationist spirit.
I have an M.Sc. in Information System Design and worked as a software engineer for many years, but a childhood fascination with dinosaurs and visits to the Natural History Museum in London inoculated me to fairy tales at an early age.
However, I should also fess up to having an undergraduate degree in History and Philosophy of Science, with an emphasis on 19th C biology, that leaves me dismayed at the willful ignorance that some would wish to perpetuate and perpetrate upon our children.
Greg House, M.D. is about as religious as a condom full of smegma, but unfortunately he and his irreverent diagnostic acumen are themselves mere products of "special creation."
B.Sc. in electronic engineering. Finished most of an M.Sc. too before the whole Internet "thing" happened, and any geek who could even spell TCP/IP was made a salary offer no academic institution could match.
Though the Salem hypothesis seems to hold on them thar internets, my personal experience has been somewhat different: Virtually all of my engineering friends are quite openly secular. Moreover, these past 7 years I've been working in bioinformatics, shoulder-to-shoulder with actual, real, live biologists. And you know what they are like. :-)
The environment I grew up in conspired to keep me somewhat sheltered from radical religious and anti-science views, with the result that I never really defined myself in terms of belief or non-belief, even though I cannot remember ever having had any form of god-belief. However, the writings of PZ, Dawkins and Harris have recently persuaded me that there is indeed a culture war afoot, and a loss for secularism could have disastrous repercussions for all of humanity. Hence, I now openly classify myself as an atheist. Sometimes I even add "militant". So there.
My name is Steve. I'm an electrical engineer (BS). I don't believe in the supernatural. I think this makes me an atheist.
I was shocked to my boots a few years ago to find that a co-worker (BSEE) was in the ID camp. He's very rational and competent otherwise.
I also match up to secular humanism. Some (10-15?) years ago, there was an article in Time about people burning books in Tennesee. "What is so bad about secular humanists?" Time asks. "They believe in gun control, non-traditional roles for women and situational ethics". That was good enough for me, sign me up.
Steve
My name is Frank, I have a BS in Computer Science, test spacecraft flight software, and am a member of the reality-based community.
Hi, my name is Brian, I'm a software engineer/digital artist in the visual effects industry. Creationism is a load of mephitic bunk.
BS EE and MS Ag.E from the University of Missouri -- Most definately not a creationist nut job.
I have a B.S. in aerospace engineering. I've "believed in" evolution my whole life, with my acceptance only getting stronger as I've gotten older and actually studied the evidence. I take the reality-based approach to other questions about the universe, as well. I've recently denounced Christianity and become an atheist (probably in large part due to the whole ID movement making me go back and look at why it really was that I believed what I did).
My name is Andre, and I'm a mechanichal engineer finishing my masters in aeronautical engineering. I also have a soft spot for astronomy, and take it as a hobby.
I'm an atheist, rationalist, humanist an all that comes along that.
Down with the Salem hipothesys!
I'm Joshua Nicholson, B.S. in Electrical Engineering from Boston University, and I think evolution is bitchin'!
Atheist software engineer/ex-game developer.
While I don't have the training to argue the subject of evolution in any detail, I do know that every creationist I have ever spoken with (or read from) relied on these rhetorical tools exclusively:
1. Circular reasoning
2. Reliance on authority
3. Grotesque misrepresentation of evolutionary theory
That's just pathetic. If that's your best shot, you lose.
I'm a student, pursuing a B.Eng. in Biotechnology. I also live in Mexico, where being an atheist is... not cool. Also, some people doing my major are actually creationists. I'm not.
I'm like the wag above who admitted he had no "alphabet soup" to append to his name. The only appendage I can claim is an AB in physics, but I"ve been an atheist since high school more than half a century ago. As such I often point out that I have no proof for god's existence of non-existence--such "proof" for the supernatural is simply impossible--so I've long just asserted he/she/it doesn't exist and dared any who differ to demonstrate otherwise. None have taken me up on it.
In a related observation, I take issue with the casual description of many that they "believe" in evolution (some have done so in earlier comments in this thread). I've never believed in evolution. I accept it--because it's empirically supported by evidence, lots of it; ID/creationism is not and so cannot be accepted, only believed in. Beliefs IMHO are confined to intangibles and fantasies. The sooner we can eschew the use of "belief" in relation to science, the better off we'll all be. Oh, and other than my neighbors growing up in Texas, I first met creationists publicly when, as a science textbook editor/publisher in the 1960's, I did battle with them in the states of the old confederacy. Nothing changes under the sun except the face paint and the hair styles on one's antagonists.
I'm a structural engineer, P Eng in Canada, C Eng in UK. I've been an atheist for 50 years, since age of 12, & never in that time have I had any wish or reason to think that their might be a theistic god. I accept that a deistic god is theoretically possible, but still goddam unlikely.
I think the evidence shows quite clearly that humanity would be better off, on balance, without superstitious beliefs.
PZ,
Thanks for the mention!
Best Regards,
Jeb, FCD
Transcription Factor
Burt Humburg, 2nd year resident in Internal Medicine and Panda's Thumb hanger-on. I have found that placement of confidence in evolution has yielded conceptual dividends, sufficient to justify a "belief" in evolution as solid and reliable as any belief in science.
BCH
/delurk
I am a degreed electrical engineer.
Speaking as an engineer, I believe that the creationists/idists are a bunch of science denying asshats who deserve constant public mockery and ridicule. They are attempting to undermine the teaching of science at all levels of our education system, thereby putting our nation in the unenviable position of being laughed at by the rest of the world as the 21st century progresses.
Why these idiots are paid the least bit of attention by anyone with two spare braincells to rub together, I'm not really sure.
Thanks for shining the light of scientific reason into their idiocy, PZ.
/relurk
Hi, I'm Brian. I have a B.SC in Engineering with a major in mine engineering and soon to complete a Master's Degree in Mechanical Engineering. I started out my University career working towards a B.Sc. in Biology majoring in Ecology, but was then enticed by the Dark Side. After spending a number of years working in the mining industry I have changed careers and am now a research engineer. I see no basis of evidence for creationism, intelligent design creationism, christianity, islam, buddhism, flying spaghetti monsters, mythos (Greek or otherwise and yes that is redundant)... well you should get the picture.
I do, on the other hand, see a plethora of evidence for evolution and furthermore, a convergence of scientific evidence from across the various disciplines. Evolution is thoroughly supported by the major theories within all of the sciences. And as such it has a type of elegance that all of us scientist thrive to produce in our own work. It brings together complex fields of thought and physical data with such simplicity and efficacy in understanding our origins that it nurtures the rational mind.
Sorry, just trying to be eloquent, you know, like the theory. Unfortunately, it does not seem to work on the irrational mind.
I'm a Mechanical Engineer, and an atheist. I have seen too many intelligently designed machines fail to believe that the same could be the source of life in our universe.
Plus, what kind of intelligent designer puts a toxic waste disposal chute through a recreational area?
-Berlzebub
PhD in genetics. I'm an ex-mormon atheist who thinks that creationism is crackpottery.
Hi I'm Chris, I'm a Professional Engineer residing in the state of Indiana. I am an atheist and I consider creationism to be bunk.
Hi, I'm Brock Tice. I have a BSE in Biomedical Engineering, and am about 60% done with my PhD in Biomedical Engineering at the Johns Hopkins University. I am an atheist, a naturalist, and a Bright.
Hello, I'm Gordon from Ohio, a software engineer (MCIS), and an immunologist and molecular biologist (BS plus years of medical laboratory work). I'm a buddhist in the vajrayana tradition, which technically makes me a 'non-theist', and I regard all flavors of creationism and ID as thumb-sucking foolishness.
I have a B.S. in Electrical Engineering and a law degree and I think creationism is crazy talk.
I've posted this elsewhere previously, but it seems relevant here, so here I go again:
The first time I heard the ID argument was from a creationist friend. One day, after a tennis match, he pointed to car parked next to a tree and said something like, "See that tree and that car? Can't you tell that they were both designed?"
I have been a mechanical engineer for many years, mostly designing turbines. My reaction was that anyone who thought that was a convincing argument against evolution probably had never designed anything complex. Design work, like what I understand of evolution, contains a lot of trial-and-error, builds on previous designs incrementally, and is subject to survival in competitive marketplaces. I tried to explain this to my friend using the car as an example. We've all seen cars evolve in our lifetimes. Museums are full of extinct forms, like the Model T and the Edsel. They even have vestigial organs which have been adapted to new functions, such as cigarette lighters being used to power electronic equipment.
So my answer was, "No, it seems to me they both show evidence of evolution."
JV - B.S. Physics, Masters in Mechanical Engineering, secular humanist
/delurk
I'm Carolyn from Massachusetts. I have a BS in mechanical engineering, and am a couple of months away from an MS in same.
I think creationism (and its spit-polished cousin intelligent design) are ludicrous.
Since he's no longer around to do so, let me put in a word for my Dad, B.Sc. Mechanical Engineer, taught me most of the math I know, devout (as in, Mass every morning) Catholic, and firm believer in the theory of evolution.
I have a BS in chemistry and a MS in Physics.
I'm an athiest now, but even in my youth as an Episcopalian I was always amazed that there were people stupid enough to swallow creationism.
I have an M.Sc. in engineering and I am not a creationist, nor have I ever in my life believed in god. I went on to get a Ph.D. in theoretical physics and am doing research in that field, but I wouldn't have been a creationist should I have stayed in engineering.
I also know somebody who works in a lab where there is a postdoc in molecular biology who does not believe in evolution. I don't know how he can do research, but it shows it's not only engineers and doctors.
I'm a Professional Engineer (with a MS degree in Environmental Engineering) and I think the creationist and ID movements are nonsense.
Oh yeah, almost forgot. I have a bachelor's degree in physics and have had about 2 1/2 years of med school. However, God saw to it to have me medically disqualified from my military scholarship to the latter (I'm virtually blind in my right eye), so I haven't finished and doubt I will at this point.
At no time as a pre-med or basic-science med student was I expected to think one way or the other about evolution, although in microbiology (immunology/bacteriology/virology), certain concepts carried an implicit weight of evolutionary theory. But anyone heading into medical school as a creationist is not going to be actively dissauded a la someone in a straight biology curriculum; you can get an A in college biology (al that's needed as a pre-med) without really opening your eyes, much less your mind.
I was godless then, and always regarded skygods as one more mode of human self-delusion, but because society was not in a manic religious phase at that point (the quiescent period between Reagan's Moral Majority fuckoes and the Bushy fundie-Christians), I didn't give religion much thought. Things are a little different now.
I've a BS in Computer Science from Gonzaga U. I'm an atheist, and what is really funny is it was the old testament class at Gonzaga that really made me challenge my belief in God. The Jesuits are remarkably secular in their historical studies of biblical text. I deny creationism and the holy spirit.
It's also that I'm a self-hating human, and that really eliminates ones ability to be truly Christian. You gotta love humans and humanity (and yourself) to think you are the image of God...
Heh.
Should have a PhD in Physics in about a year. Atheist and evolutionist.
Hi everybody. I have a BS in Computer Engineering and a BS in Economics (is that like admitting to being a homeopath around here?), and I don't buy into creationism or ID.
Maybe it's because I work as a programmer for a shop that's a classic example of why engineers snort when they hear the phrase "software engineering." Does that make me more of a craftsman and thus immune to the Salem Hypothesis?
PhD Chemical Engineering who rejects creationism.
B.S., M.S., Ph.D., all in Computer Science. 40 years worth of hobby-level electronics. Wife has M.S. in hard-rock geochemistry (to me a long time is 10 microseconds; error in her experimental data was +/- 30 million years). Absorbed evolutionary theory with my breakfast cereal from my biologist dad. Was token skeptic in high school evangelical youth group (they never knew what to make of me, but most are still good friends 30+ years later). Definitely in the reality-based camp. Kid shows similar leanings.
I am about to get my Ph.D. in biomedical engineering, and I am an atheist and a darwinist.
I'm a Ph.D. in civil engineering, and I accept the theory of evolution as I accept the theory of elasticity, the theory of vibrations, the theory of plates and shells, the theory of plasticity, the theory of elastic stability, the theory of thermal stresses, the theory of structures...
MEng in Computer Systems and Software Engineering here - atheist and very much _not_ a creationist.
I'm not sure what makes a lot of my colleagues in IT so open to creationism, but I've inferred quite a lot of Incompetant Design in the software I've worked with.
For an engineer who is not a creationist, I recommend reading Mike Wong's web page -- CreationTheory.org
Since you asked...
I hold a BSChemE (with a concentration in life sciences), currently work as a medical software developer and have held engineering positions, and not only think creationism (including variants like intelligent design) is total bollocks, but (contrary to the carping of some creationists) I have personally found evolutionary biology to be useful in my field in the analysis of the emergence and persistence of temperature resistance in T. ferrooxidans (useful in processing ores containing pyrite and related minerals because it derives its energy primarily by oxidizing sulfides).
I also really, really, really hate the fallacious use of the 2nd law of thermodynamics in creationist arguments.
Computer Science (B.S.), completed pre-med program as well, and an evolutionist. I also know plenty of software developers who are atheists.
I have a BS in Computer Engineering, I test software for a living, and I'm currently pursuing a MS in Library and Information Science. I am a proud atheist and a founding member of the Tech Freethought Society (nee` Campus Atheists and Agnostics, sadly now defunct) at the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology. I think creationism and ID are bunk.
I think it's worth looking at actual polls of doctors, in their defense. For example, this poll (which was bizarrely used by Casey Luskin in support of ID). Now there is some bad news in there, 34% said they agreed more with ID, but the majority (63%) agreed with evolution. Only 18% said God created humans as they are now, and only 15% say they reject evolution. This is dramatically different from the views of the public; most polls show that 40-50% of Americans believe God created humans as we are now. (For example.) I haven't seen polls of engineers on the subject, but I'd bet they were similar, though I think engineers are a little heavier with weirdos and crackpots*.
Or to make an argument against the Salem Hypothesis: the more you know about science (particularly biology), the less likely you are to be a creationist. Engineers know more about science than John Q. Public, so they're less likely to believe in creationism. But they don't know as much about evolution as biologists, so the percentage of creationists among engineers will be higher. Not exactly a blinding insight, but it's something that should be mentioned every time an engineer/doctor shows up spouting nonsense. Smart? Debatable. Biologist? No.
*B.S. Electrical & Computer Engineering.
BA in Mechanical Engineering and Masters in Public Health, and I don't look to religion to explain the physical world. No creationism for me thanks
Another Robert M., engineer w/ graduate degree (B.E.S., M.S.). Proud to believe in evolution and encourage its teaching; firmly agnostic.
I'm a software engineer with a B.S. in Math. I am an atheist and firm believer in evolution. I've worked in the Seattle-area software engineering community for 13 years, and pretty much every other engineer I've worked with has also been an atheist.
Professional Engineer, specializing in structural, and saddened to live near the Creation Museum. One of the smartest engineers I know accepts evolution, but believes that it's impossible for life to form initially without a magic man in the sky getting involved. I just acquired Robert Hazen's "Genesis" so I can make a better argument next time the subject of origins comes up. (And it will come up...)
I'll speak for my late father (Materials Scientist -- PhD in Metallurgical Engineering, Berkeley), who, though he was a devout Catholic as a young man, became a happy unbeliever once he discovered science. I would also like to say that he bravely and calmly faced his terminal illness without the crutch of religion. I hope I can behave the same when my time comes.
Software Engineer, atheist, glad to be free of the shackles.
I'm an electrical engineer, I'm ashamed to say. I'm a proud anti-creationist atheist.
Hi. I'm Margaret, BS/MS/PhD in Computer "Science". I accept evolution and reject all superstitions, including creationism and its lying cousin ID. I'm horribly ashamed that the government lab I work for has had various YEC colloquia.
As a kid, I could see that lots of the adults "believed" in going to church, but I'm not sure I ever actually thought that they "believed" in that bizarre, ill-defined "god" thing they sometimes spoke about incoherently -- they cerainly didn't act like they believed. I completely ignored religion for years and years until fairly recently when I realized (blatedly) that I (and my country and the very concept of reason) am under attack by the religious nuts.
Hi, my name is Kate and I'm an "evolutionist"
ok, I don't have a science degree... started out in astrophysics then took the advice of my advisor (isn't that what he's there for?) got married and baked brownies before I wised up and went back to college. So now I only have degrees in Education and Lit (Masters), which I guess makes me odd person out.
To my credit I've raised four kids who don't believe in superstitious nonsense, and my Marine Biologist is marrying a Geologist studying Paleontology who also doesn't believe in creationist nonsense, so I'll step up to the line here anyway.
Yes, I know that the humanities is often the Land of Woo. I live in a woo-free zone.
My name is James and I'm a medical student about to qualify. I'm a proud evilutionist and atheist. I'm also proud to dismiss all the woo that seems to be invading modern medical practice.
No alphabet soup for me just yet, but I'm working my way though a BS in mechanical engineering. I think creationism is also BS (the bad kind).
"Magic man done it!"
Thought I'd pop in a comment, since I'm one of those readers who don't ever post, and this just makes me want to post.
I was on the fast track to being a chemical engineer in college, but I wasn't happy doing it. I love chemistry and physics, don't get me wrong, but it was the engineering part that I didn't want.
Instead, I got my BA in chemistry, a minor's in physics (nearly got my minor's in biology and space science too, but that's a LONG story) and finished off the needed classed to become a high school teacher.
Thus, now I'm a physics and chemistry teacher for 9th grade students, and I fully support evolution, big bang, and I get to teach other people about it. (Fun! Really. 150 high school students, every day. Wee!)
I might not be a full fledged engineer or into the medical profession, but I just had to drop in my two cents, since I love my job and I figured getting to teach all the future scientists was close enough for a quick comment.
Thought I'd pop in a comment, since I'm one of those readers who don't ever post, and this just makes me want to post.
I was on the fast track to being a chemical engineer in college, but I wasn't happy doing it. I love chemistry and physics, don't get me wrong, but it was the engineering part that I didn't want.
Instead, I got my BA in chemistry, a minor's in physics (nearly got my minor's in biology and space science too, but that's a LONG story) and finished off the needed classed to become a high school teacher.
Thus, now I'm a physics and chemistry teacher for 9th grade students, and I fully support evolution, big bang, and I get to teach other people about it. (Fun! Really. 150 high school students, every day. Wee!)
I might not be a full fledged engineer or into the medical profession, but I just had to drop in my two cents, since I love my job and I figured getting to teach all the future scientists was close enough for a quick comment.
Hi I'm Carolyn, I used to work as a systems engineer, I now am a grad student in computer engineering, and I'm an atheist, and not a creationist.
I'd like to think the systems I had a part in creating were intelligently designed, though.
BS in Management Science with a minor in Computer Science. I've worked for 20 years in Satellite Operations in positions of Satellite Controller, Software test engineer and Systems Enginner. I believe Creationism is a joke and because so many Americans claim to believe in Creationism is an embarassiment to the US.
I'm a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer, if that counts (I do IT work for the State of CA), and I firmly accept evolution as the model that best fits the available evidence. I also realize that creationism and its derivatives do not fit the available evidence.
Interesting that most of the comments on this thread are from atheists. Evolution...atheism. The two *always* seem to kinda go hand in hand, no? If ya don't like the god thing, you've obviously gotta hang with the evolutionists regardless of whether they're right or not.
Of course, you'll always have a few like Humburg to parade around.
I'm an MD specializing in Family Practice and I think creationism is a load of hooey. Of course, I'm not a neurosurgeon, so what do I know?
Hi, I'm Brendan, BSME. Creationism sucks.
Bill Farrell, PhD Chemist, but I'd be glad to play an engineer on TV if offered the part.
Dyed in the wool Darwinist. Creationism, baaaaaaaaah!
(Note to Dr. Egnor: why don't you run along and pray in the freeway or something, OK?)
Pratik Patel, BSc (Hons) Computer Science. Rabidly atheist and proud of it.
Every time I see creationism gain another foothold is the US it makes me think that the day that China will take over the world with superior science and technology is hastened another day closer.
I am a software engineer and an atheist. Most proggy types I know are atheists, but there are a few "faith heads" (thanks Mr. Dawkins) thrown in the mix, and their code is just as nutty ;)
Forthekids: The reason atheism and evolution tend to go together is because they are both logical conclusions of pulling your head out of your ass and actually paying attention to the world around you. You should try it sometime.
I should point out that this isn't quite the Salem Hypothesis, which I understand as saying: self-identified "scientists" professing creationism are likely to turn out to actually be engineers (and I would add other quasi-science professions like medicine). I suggest this results from selection on the niche "public spokesidiot for creationism":
- The biologists, geologists, astronomers etc. select out by usually not being creationists.
- Among creationists, the non-science types self-eliminate by knowing they have nothing to say.
- That leaves the creationists quasi-scientists in the middle: people with enough education to think they have something useful to say about science, but (due to personal arrogance) failing to recognize their limitations.
This is not inconsistent with your assertion: the more science you know, the less likely you are to be a Creationist.
Isn't creationism a religious construct?
Wow, abuse of the kids, you're really onto something there.
Wait... Wasn't FTK banned?
No.
I'm a physician, my son has a phd in physics, my daughter and her husband (who are devote lutherns) are computer programs and my two younger sons all find evolution the best explanation for how we got here. We all think ID's are wrong. (as well as nuts)
BS, MS, PhD in Chemical Engineering
Licensed Professional Engineer, State of Ohio
I'm also an NCSE Steve ... I proudly signed off on the Project Steve statement:
Please don't feed the trolls. FTK is a mind assassin with the agility of a hoop snake.
Hi I'm Michael. I graduates as a Mechanical Engineer. I have works in the IT field for the last 25 years and I wholeheartedly support evolution
Michael
No. She is "on notice."
Hmmm, should we let her hijack this thread? Sure why not.
FTK - have you considered that the 130+ people who left comments are not a representative sample of the population of planet earth, or of the USA?
Ballpark figures here:
Atheists comprise approximately 10% of the US population. And yet over 50% of the US population accepts the theory of evolution. Call it fifty. Let's see then, if we assume that all atheists accept evolution, that means that 44% of American non-atheists accept evolution. Hand-in-hand? I don't think so.
Geez. Use your head. My brother's gecko could have figured this out.
Hello, my name is James, and I'm a product firmware engineer, an atheist and a neo-pragmatist. I've got about as much patience for so-called "intelligent design theory" as I do for astrology, U.F.O conspiracy theory, and the notion that Vince Foster was murdered by a time-traveling John Wilkes Booth-- which is to say, none at all, i.e. I don't even think it makes for good entertainment.
My favorite counter-argument for so-called "intelligent design theory" is summarized with two words: cephalopelvic disproportion. And yes, I've seen at least one nutter try to rationalize that one and get all wrapped around his own axles. You don't want to know. It wasn't a pretty sight.
And we can all take a guess as to what percentage of those that believe in Creationism/ID a religious.
I have a PhD in electronics and MSc in electrophysics engineering.
Exposing and standing against anti-science forces is a practical and moral choice for any scientist or engineer. That incorporates the pseudoscience of all creationists, including most or all types of theistic evolution.
Full AA (Active Atheist) disclosure: I haven't read Dawkins TGD, but I suspect I may be more activist in the sense that I think our physics pretty much precludes miracles that can't be distinguished from natural events. Haphazard goddidit isn't only impotent, but also often lazily invoked without realizing the inherent conflicts with todays physics.
But that isn't the main reason I include the so called philosophy of theistic evolution in pseudosciences.
Eamon:
Nice analysis. I agree with everything you said except this. My model is that it is professional confidence spilling over into other areas. That would also incorporate neurosurgeons like Egnor.
But of course the hard cases will espouse a lot of personal arrogance as well. Not least because it is supported by the need for professional confidence bordering on arrogance.
Another full disclosure: Of course this model also makes it possible for me to be intolerable arrogant at will (within my profession) without compromises. But no model is perfect. :-)
B.A. math, B.S. computer science, I've been a programmer (software engineer--that's a kind of engineer, isn't it?) since graduating from college. I've been an atheist since graduating from grade school. I've been a proponent of the scientific method since I found out what it is.
OK, addendum to my post, I missed FTK's comment above.
No! I am a practicing Christian in a leadership position in my congregation and an ordained elder in my denomination -- and I have publicly and enthusiastically agreed, using my own name, that "Evolution is a vital, well-supported, unifying principle of the biological sciences, and the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that all living things share a common ancestry. ..."
I am reasonably certain that the vast majority of the atheists who are posting in this thread support evolution and oppose creationism because they were convinced by the quantity and quality of the evidence, not because they had no alternative to evolution.
It really is about the evidence.
I have a BA in physics and a JD. In a couple of weeks, I'll be a patent attorney. I also appreciate evidence based reality, just so long as it conforms to the federal or appropriate state court's rules of evidence and a proper foundation has been laid through examination of a relevant witness.
Well, I don't really count at this point. I'm currently working on undergrad degrees on math and physics (was working on comp sci, but switched out recently), and will probably go to work in industrial R&D after I finish. So I guess I at least fit in here as a "prospective engineer", and I obviously think creationism is crapola.
I have a M.Ed. and own a health care communications company that supplies health care information to 260 mostly fortune 500s and I'm a secular humanist, Bright. It would be fraud for me to tell people to go pray at Any Faith Church in Broken Jaw, Nebraska to cure their type II diabetes. But it's not fraud for a pastor to promise everlasting life and miracles if you believe and pray to a vengeful god? Religion is nothing more than fraud!
BS in Aerospace Engineering, trained in Nuclear Engineering (ran some reactors for a bit). Have worked as a systems engineer and safety engineer on lasers and cryogenic systems. Currently work at "a national laboratory".
It's sad that the argument atheists "support evolution and oppose creationism because they were convinced by the quantity and quality of the evidence, not because they had no alternative to evolution." has to even be made.
I agree that the argument, unfortunately, needs to be spelled out but it seems like arguing that I support obstetricians and oppose storks because I'm convinced by the quantity and quality of the evidence, not because I have no alternative to storks.
Very infrequent poster. I think I once posted to defend the honor of Engineers
Atheist Pathologist here.
B.S. (ain't bullshit!) in microbiology. Former woowoo idiot turned atheist rationalist.
While I'm still working towards my ChemE/BiomedE degree at Carnegie Mellon, I think I still count as an engineer against creationism and as a proud secular humanist.
I have an M.S. in computer science, and am a secular humanist. The way some people program software, I would be shocked to learn that they did not understand how complex systems could evolve through seemingly random processes!
HI, I'm Dave and I'm a computer systems engineer. Not only do I denounce creationism, I'm am absolutely baffled by the stupidity of the arguments used to support it. I really can't comprehend the mental process of a person that buys into the idea that the shape of a banana or the fact that new life doesn't spontaneously form in peanut butter are both testaments to creationism. It is truly insane.
I am a Biochemist (BS), Electrical Engineer (MSEE) and MBA. SO, I have the scurge of Behe AND IDiot engineers on my head.
I am a scientist at heart. I worked many years in biological research at MDIBL in Maine. My father did some of the first work on the repair of damaged DNA mediated by light in the 1960's - I worked with him on these studies using sand dollar embryos. (I tried and perhaps partially succeeded to recreate the Miller early earth atmosphere experiment in high school chemistry lab.)
I worked for 15 years as a real engineer in the IC and computer industry, now mostly I manage a business. But science is in my heart.
Creationism is lunacy.
You give her way too much credit. The agility of a Galápagos tortoise, maybe.
Anyway, back on topic. I have a PhD in Biomedical and Health Informatics, a discipline where computer science and medicine intersect. My initial concern about the potential for a local minimum proved unfounded, however, and with only one exception I've never met with anything but encouragement for my pushing our lab's existing human anatomy computer model in the direction of comparative anatomy and evo-devo. Fortunately, our docs and hackers are firmly ensconced in reality, which is what you'd expect from a research program.
However, as an informaticist, my finest wrath is reserved for those posers who misuse "information" as a stalking horse buzzword for anti-science. (PZ, I know you've heard this story before, but I do love it because it reclaims "information" just a little bit from them, so please bear with the repeat.)
When I was taking my information-retrieval class, I asked my prof once during a break if, as an informatics professor in the Information School, he was familiar with the "Isaac Newton of Information Theory". He confessed he was not, and, taking a sip of his coffee, asked me what I meant. As I explained, he laughed so hard he almost snorted coffee out his nose.
I am Sam. I have a Ph.D. in Mathematics and I think that creationism and its reincarnation, intelligent design, are a pile of baloney. I believe that, at the moment, the theory evolution is the best explanation for the variety of biological forms found in nature.
As an immigrant from the Soviet Union, I find intelligent design as distasteful as Lysenkoism. Attempts of doctrine, be it polotical or religious, to dictate what is acceptable or not in science don't end well. After the Soviet government labeled the young cybernetics an imperialist science, the development of computer science and engineering there never recovered. Similarly, it pains me to no end that the efforts of some segments of the religious community to impose ignorance on the youth of America are setting my country back.
I'm studying for a BEng in mechanical engineering and every time an engineer starts harping on about how wrong evolution is and that god did it, you'll find me slapping my forehead just that little bit harder than usual.
I'm a Chemical Engineer, recently retired after 30+ years in the pharmaceutical industry. I first learned about creation "science" from my brother, a born-again Christian, 10 or 15 years ago. He gave me a book ... if I recall correctly it was a Duane Gish. I actually read most of it (almost certainly spent more time on it than he probably spent on the Stephen Jay Gould I gave him in return!), but it was abundantly obvious that there was no science there. As creation science has evolved into intelligent design and teach the controversy, the underlying BS remains the same.
I am probably best described as a secular humanist, though a spectacularly non-aggressive one!
I'm a little disappointed, but not surprised, that engineers far outnumber physicians in these responses. I think it may reflect the fact that medicine is more likely to attract the touchy-feely types more given to dabbling in woo. Engineers, by contrast, don't earn any extra points just by making people feel better about themselves. I'm an otolaryngologist and a head and neck surgeon. I find the fact of evolution to be self-evident. And I have been an 'atheist' since the age of 17 -- 40 years ago -- although, as I've said previously on these pages, the incoherence of 'theism' renders 'atheism' a weakened position as well: it concedes too much. This is the 'hard' end of the spectrum: I know that there is no such thing as a god or gods or anything else that supposedly resides in some supernatural realm or that is somehow intrinsically beyond human comprehension. As so defined, such a being is impossible.
My father, an engineer at the University of Arizona, Tucson, was the major reason I wasn't pulled in by my mother's fundamentalism, and became a biologist and defender of evolution today.
Plus, he likes Dawkins.
Hi, I am an M.D., Ph.D. and am a proud atheist/secular humanist. My graduate research involved Human Endogenous Retroviruses and I like to think that my work helped contribute to our understanding of recent primate evolution.
After leaving research and moving into medicine, I was shocked to find how many of my peers (and more alarmingly, my supervisors) are creationists and in some cases young-earth creationists. Given the scientific support for evolution, I've never been able to wrap my mind around the fundamentalist position. I guess I'll leave that to the psychiatrists and philosophers.
I have a Bachelor degree in Computer Systems Engineering. I enjoy keeping up with the latest scientific discoveries, particularly in cosmology and quantum physics (I figure the stuff in between can look after itself ;-)). I have no problem accepting current theories in cosmology and evolution.
However, I am also an Evangelical Christian. I believe in God for a number of reasons, not least of which is that he actually dwelt on earth as a man, for a bit over 30 years, some 2000 years ago.
I can understand why many scientists and engineers deny the existence of god, or anything outside our material existence - afterall science scientific enquiry is itself limited to the material Universe in which we live.
However, just because you can't observe something doesn't mean it's not there. Just because we can come up with a rational explanation that fits our observations doesn't mean that there can not be something more behind the observed phenomenon.
At the end of the day, if God doesn't exist then I will have lived my life with a misplaced faith and will cease to exists when I die. However if God does exist (and I know that he does) then there is life after death, and I'd much prefer to live that life with God than without Him.
waldo, BS in Computer Engineering, Iowa State University class of 2006.
Proudly anti-religion, pro-science, pacifist, vegetarian and atheist.
An incomplete B.Eng (Electrical, major Computer Systems) which turned into a B.InfTech, here. Hoping also to hear from a government office in a couple of weeks to provide me with the scholarship I need to get out of my I.T. support role and into a InfTech research Master's.
Intelligent Design is Creationism in a cheap tuxedo, indeed.
Worse, it's (that is, both ID AND Creationism are) proven wrong by the very "poster-child" points they purport to be their "evidence"; indeed, it counter-proves the very Darwin- and post-Darwin-principles they seek to discredit.
Worse still is every single idiotic comment its proponents make. I could - indeed, WANT to - point to every single salient comment made by people like Dembski (Behe, Johnson, Egnor, et al)... but what could I say that hasn't already been shredded by the rest of the Internet?
For my birthday, my girlfriend bought me a copy of Carl Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World". I wonder if Dembski has ever read this book? (Interesting: googling for ["Dembski" && "Demon-Haunted World"] returns 869 hits).
I weep for the world which can split the atom; cure diseases using technologies controllable yet invisible to the naked eye; record six thousand years of human civilisations; communicate near-instantaneously around its globe; broadcast the latest news and education to virtually anyone within its light-cone...
... and still: without even the faintest hint of hard evidence, with hard evidence AGAINST, with CONTRADICTORY documentation; have a majority-belief in a personified intelligent, Creator-ego that takes a deep, personal interest in the MINUTIAE of their personal lives.
... oh: and prosecute, persecute (so to speak) and litigate against anyone who points to the REASONS to believe otherwise.
Frickin' morons.
... counterpoint the surrealism of the underlying metaphor... death IS too good for them!
I don't think my comment will be seen by many, but here goes...
I am an MD and a neurologist. I am appalled by Michael Egnor.
As a brain surgeon, he should know better than anyone how awful a job the ventricular system of the brain is. The Aqueduct of Sylvius, through which all the spinal fluid flows, is thin as a hair. Not surprisingly it often clogs, messing up the function of the whole brain(I won't even venture a guess how many such cases he must have seen in his career). If a human engineer built something like this he would get fired on the spot.
INTELLIGENT DESIGN!
I am a Civil Engineer in the buckle of the bible belt, a prior Marine Corps Infantryman, and an Atheists since the age of 10.
Did anybody catch the Nova episode on cuttlefish tonight??? Amazing!
I am a Family Physician and have practiced now for almost 16 years. I was trained by my parents who were 7th-Day Adventists to believe in creationism, and did so for my childhood, where I attended religious schools for my entire education, up to and including medical school. During this time, I slowly began to doubt creationism. When I was in college I had a "eureka" moment when I was in Cell and Molecular biology and I heard of Margulis's theory of endosymbiosis of mitochondria. It immediately struck me as undoubtedly accurate, and destroyed any possibility that special creation that had humanity in mind could have happened. I slowly abandoned all vestiges of creationism, and then religion.
It's not so easy. Much of our society revolves around various religious activities. My brother is a pastor and my father was, as is my stepfather. My siblings are a mixed bunch, but most of the next generation of the family stayed with religion.
Creationists are neither stupid nor are they generally ignorant per se. They simply can't live in a world where they are personally responsible for their fates, and they choose not to.
I agree though, that the medical evidence strongly supports natural selection as the means by which mankind arose, as the myriad design failures (the lumbar spine, the sinuses, the pelvis) of the human body attest to.
MD. Atheist.
ID makes me cringe, but not as much as watching physicians embarrass themselves by supporting it.
I am an MD raised in Tennessee and now in Alabama for the last 20 years. Southern Born and Southern Bred. I am no Creationsist (in any of its bastard mutant forms).
Evolution "theory" has provided the most useful and powerful framework with which to understand all of biology. Unfortunately medical education is becoming more and more technician like, in that there is a huge amount of data to be ingested with less and less time for understanding mechanisms and investigating more deeply. I suspect that MD's may be a bit more susceptable accepting things without as much skepticism as they should give.
Interestingly, despite stereotypes of the South that many seem to harbor, Creationism was uncommon in my surroundings all through the first 50 years of life. I never knew anyone with any level of education that took the idea seriously. The majority of people that I grew up with were Christian or Jewish by faith, but few of them seemed to let that interfere with reality...Evolution was just how things were done by God, etc.
I have seen more of an interest in Creationism in the last several years than in the preceding half century. I suspect this is largely due to the professional marketing and lobbying strategies of the Discovery Institute and their ilk. In their very denial of evolution they provide a wonderful example of a successful, but maladaptive meme.
As far as religion....well it's really a bit like Dungeons and Dragons isn't it? Entertaining and even sustaining for those with the taste for it....Mostly harmless in most of its western incarnations until someone starts to take the game to seriously. A bit like Kurt Vonnegut's Boko Maru.
Forthekids, please learn how to count. Your comment was number 123. There were 122 comments before you. Those 122 comments came from about 119 different people. Of them, even if you include the buddhist as an atheist, only 55 identified as atheists. 55 of 119 is 46%, Therefore, you were wrong to say "most of the comments on this thread are from atheists."
I am a Board Certified Family Practice Physician, MD, graduate of the University of Missouri-Columbia, I have a Master's in Science Education. There is no god and evolution is the mechanism of creation.
I have undergraduate degrees in chemical engineering and biochemistry, and I am presently pursuing a Ph.D. in biomedical engineering. I don't "believe" in evolution -- I recognize the evidence for it.
I am an Electrical Engineer, daughter of an Electrical Engineer, wife of an Electrical Engineer (whose father was also an Electrical Engineer), and mother of an Electronics Engineering Techician (whose partner is an Engineer).
Though I am now an atheist, I was a Christian until a few years ago, having converted in my teens, but was never a creationist. I spent time in the 1990s and the first few years of this millenium hanging out on talk.origins trying to explain to fundies that it was possible to be a Christian while being a firm proponent of evolution. (I suppose the fundies turned out to be at least partially correct in this case.)
Saying that "evolution is how God carries out the process of Creation" is rather like saying "evaporation is how God makes sure that soup won't burn my mouth when I eat it". It entirely misses the point.
Evaporation takes place because certain rudimentary statements about the nature of matter are true. It would occur whether an intelligent entity wanted it to happen or not, and unless it was actively prevented. Evolution is the same - in fact, if we extend our meaning beyond biological evolution, evaporation is an example of evolution - there is a selection pressure and a change in population statistics over time due to that pressure.
If evolution is how God creates the nature of living things, then that is equivalent to saying God does not create the nature of living things.
Hey there PZ -
Another atheist engineer here checking in. I am an Aerospace / Electrical Engineer and have worked on fighter jets and space launch vehicles. Love your site...I generally lurk around and soak up all the excellent content, but I had to comment on this thread to be counted amoung your enlightened fans.
J. Stein here, finishing a dual B.S. in Biology and Comparative Literature, headed off to dental school in the very near future. I am a strict rationalist - this includes, naturally, atheism and evolution.
Does software engineering count? Anyway, I call creationism "cretinism" and think it is a total crock. And while I don't believe you have to be an atheist if you accept evolution, I think most forms of religion are a crock too.
Hi, another aethiest engineer here.
Electrical Engineer and agnostic... Creationism is for losers.
I volunteer at a major natural history museum as a docent for
a well known evolution exhibit.
Cheers
I'm about to get my B.Sci in Biology and plan on going into biomedical research dealing with evolution of bacterial pathogens. I see the necessity of applying evolutionary principles to microbial biochemistry in order to explain many processes, and firmly reject the lunacy of the "goddidit" hypothesis. Cheers.
B.S. in Astrophysics, work in aerospace on high performance computers. Atheist since college. We need to start being more vocal. Oh wait...
I work very closely with an ER doctor in a major insurance company; We are both atheists and humanists and aware of each others views, but we do sort of watch our backs as to who may be eavesdropping around us at work; some of the RNs and even some of the other doctors are religious, but only a tiny handful express any contrarian positions vis a vis evolution and evolutionary biology. My ER doc friend and I often swap freethought literature & AV materials, too.
On a bummer note, my ex-wife's Primary Care Physician was a bible-thumping nutjob; she had to get a different doctor to prescribe her contraceptives, even after we were married.
My ex-wife came from a fundie background, and drifted back to it slowly over time, and was definitely back in that camp when our divorce was finalized. She did well in science courses and had ambitions of getting an MD degree, but she was a total creationist, anti-evolution whacko, and must've engaged in an unhealthy level of dualistic thinking in her science courses. Even when she was still a wishy washy agnostic, she wouldn't brook any criticism of religion from me, and always dismissed anyone who was even the least bit critical of religion as "biased", and therefore not worthy of any further consideration.
I'm so glad to be out from under such an unhealthy relationship, secular and free.
One Master of Engineering degree, one Master of Science degree. I then left the academic world to work in software.
No creationism believed here.
Chemical engineer/atheist here.
I'm four sixths of an MD (or MBChB as we like to call it), and I'm most definitely not a creationist.
Hi, I'm an engineer with a BS Physics, living and working in New Zealand. I have been an infidel since age 7, and have never kept silent in the presence of blithering creationists.
cheers!
I'm both an engineer (BSc) and a mathematician (BSc), and not a cretinist.
One more software engineer for your list here. :D I also have a Ph.D. in Math and am an atheist.
Forthekids: I'm hurt that you didn't mention yours truly as the 'token theist' in these parts, given the Tibetan chant that now accompanies my name.
Turnabout's fair play, though: where's the 'token atheist' within the IDevotee's ranks? Where is the non-believer who is actively welcomed and participates in the (presumably) scientific research program which seeks to find evidence for the Designer?
Besides, Dr. Humburg is no token, to be trotted out as proof of the scientific community's diversity, and neither am I. The scientific community is diverse, and we're members of that community. Humburg's earned his stripes, whatever his personal views, because he's publicly stood up for quality science education, and against the peddlers of pseudoscience.
M.S. in computer science; evolutionist (if that's the proper term).
I'm lucky enough to live in a part of the world (Norway) where non-believers are in the majority. Sadly, religious issues still rear their heads occasionally -- in discussions of stem-cell research, for example.
Interesting that most of the comments on this thread are from atheists. Evolution...atheism. The two *always* seem to kinda go hand in hand, no? If ya don't like the god thing, you've obviously gotta hang with the evolutionists regardless of whether they're right or not.
It's not at all interesting that FTK once again displays her Christian pettiness, intellectual dishonesty, and fallacy-ridden thinking -- traits that are highly correlated with each other. But her statement here is even more stupid and dishonest than her norm -- there is no reason whatsoever to think that any of the atheists who have posted here (who are a tiny fraction of the world's atheists) think that "the evolutionists" aren't right. In fact, those atheists who don't think the evolutionists are right almost certainly aren't fans of this site and would be extremely unlikely to add their names to this roll.
Of course, you'll always have a few like Humburg to parade around.
A few what? You're so dumb you don't even understand your own argument.
As for me: I'm a machine that generates true statements.
Engineer in construction, and also not a creationist;
not exeptional at all here in the Netherlands.
I'm an engineer with a BSE in Computer Systems Engineering and an atheist - and I let anyone who asks me know it!
I am a Software Engineer with PhD (Informatik), using Genetic Algorithms for a living. Being very sceptical about what creationists say evolution can't do comes with the job.
Eamon:
due to personal arrogance
Nice analysis. I agree with everything you said except this. My model is that it is professional confidence spilling over into other areas.
Confidence (professional or otherwise) "spilling over" is arrogance.
Stupid effing blog software ... that obviously isn't how I intended that post to be formatted.
I have a masters in mechanical engineering (25 years)
ID is a sad joke,sad for us ,sad for our children,and
a major embarrassment for our country
I am an MD and a nonevangelical atheist. The question of the existence of a personal god is to me not worth discussing since it is not falsifiable. I would never try to dissuade someone from their personal beliefs, but I do object to public policy being based on any religion tenets. I understand that education level is the best correlate of religious non-belief, and I understand that not everyone has been as fortunate as I have been in this regard. Neither has everyone been fortunate enough to work with people of many faiths, since much of America still lives in homogeneous towns. The global village of many faiths with awareness that other faiths exist and they can't all be right, will gradually erode all religious beliefs. As long as religious beliefs remain private, there is no hurry. I hope we can all be less strident in our religion bashing.
I'm a physician, my son has a phd in physics, my daughter and her husband (who are devote lutherns) are computer programs and my two younger sons all find evolution the best explanation for how we got here. We all think ID's are wrong. (as well as nuts)
I find it interesting that most of those scientists making comments in this thread are not in the Life Sciences. I think that may not be coincidental. Regardless, it is the rare scientist who even contemplates creationsm.
I for one, do not understand why there need be this animosity between so called "creationists" and those who buy the theory of evolution. It is in fact, a brilliant theory, and any scientist worth his/her merit knows you cannot 'prove' a scientific 'fact'. What amazes me are people who say they 'believe' in evolution! If you are a logical, scientific-minded individual and there is a logical, highly plausible theory, belief does not enter into it- there is only a logical gate. And the creationists are no better if they adopt the erroneous and hypocritical view that the world was created in 7 24hr days as well know them. "A day is as a year" and "a thousand year is as a day" so says the Bible. If you are going to be a literalist, you cannot ignore some pieces and obsess over others.
I am a scientist as well, MS Microbiology PhD Biophysics, and for me evolution fits very comfortably within my beliefs, and I see no reason that both ideas could not exist harmoniously.
Hi! I'm studying for a bachelor's in electrical engineering; I'm an atheist, I'm transgendered, and I don't believe in creationism!
I am that I am, and although I don't have any fancy learnin' degrees, I am the supreme architect and engineer of the universe. I am an evolutionist, and a denier of creationism. I am also a strict atheist....wait a minute...*poof*
I find it interesting that most of those scientists making comments in this thread are not in the Life Sciences.
Bzzzt! Wrong! Most of the scientists posting here are in the life sciences, but most of the people posting aren't scientists -- take a a look at the title of this thread.
any scientist worth his/her merit knows you cannot 'prove' a scientific 'fact'
This is a canard, based on a sophistic treatment of the word "prove" as if it referred only to deductive proof -- it does not. Many scientific facts are provable -- e.g., I can prove to a moral certainty that it didn't rain on my roof in the last hour, and that this planet is more than 10,000 years old. There seems to be considerable confusion between the provability of historical facts, claims about what has happened, and the lack of certainty of scientific theories, which make predictions about what will happen.
I am a R&D engineer with a PhD in electrical engg. I am a proud defender of evolution and a regular reader of science blogs.
software engineer [x]
atheist [x]
evolution [x]
believes creationism is nonsense [x]
believes a lot of postmodernism is nonsense [x] (another cheer for Dawkins!)
I have a B.S. in Environmental Engineering. Right now I have a job in CivE, and in September I'm starting my MS/PhD in EnvE.
Creationism is an amusing little myth that in my mind has less credibility than the Aboriginal Dreamtime. It doesn't belong in politics, much less in science.
Oh, and global warming? That's real.
Duh.
The name's Sotiris, and I'm an MD from Greece, currently in my last year before completing my Orthopaedic specialty.
Creationism (and ID, of course) is just a load of nonesense, completely out of touch with science and reality, specifically designed as a propaganda and indoctrination tool for religious fundamentalism and reconstructivism. And its creator know it even more than I do.
That is all.
(BTW, did you know that, in Greece, the goverment [i]still[/i] hasn't found the guts to teach ToE in schools: It is part of the reading material in highschool, but they have moved it at the [i]end[/i] of the book, and there's never time for it to be taught during a school year. It's safer that way; It prevents our beloved politicians from losing support from the Orthodox Church -and the votes it controls).
I have a B.S. in Geological/Environmental Engineering and an M.Ed. in Earth/Space Science. I'm also an atheist. Engineers can design a life without faith.
I am an M.D. with and MPH in epidemiology (useful bullshit detector training), Pediatrician and healh services researcher and administrator. B.S. was in evolutionary biology. Secular Humanist. and not that it care whether I believe in it or not (lol), but duh, yeah, I believe in Evolution.
I'm a safety engineer, with degrees in physics and applied physics, and while I'm not necessarily an atheist (my religious beliefs are pretty much without form and void), I believe in evolution. Of course.
Faid:
Alabama did a similar trick when I was in high school. The biology textbooks didn't move evolution to the end, although they did have a "disclaimer" sticker from the State Board of Education on the inside front cover. (This sticker was the inspiration behind Cobb County's trickery, so it appears. Makes me proud.) All high-school students in Alabama have to pass a statewide, standardized exam before they can graduate. My year was the first in which this exam actually tested high-school knowledge; prior to that, the questions were written for the eighth-grade level. By skimping on the evolution questions, the Powers Which Be were able to make pretty darn sure that the basketball coaches we had teaching biology wouldn't spend any time on the subject.
I'm a Chemical Engineer. So yes, by default, I'm an expert on Intelligent Design and all other religious dogma that sounds sciency.
Err... maybe not. Okay, I admit it... I'm Doc G, and I, too, am an EVILutionist.
Is there a twelve-step program for us? lol
Atheist leaning Agnostic computer engineer (BS) here.
I am a professional mechanical/materials engineer with a Ph.D. in physical metallurgy. Not a creationist, to put it mildly.
Evangelical atheist BSc (Hon) Microbiology and Immunology and MDCM (Scottish doctor of medicine, master of surgery).
Unfortunately, I married a guy who believes in the spirit in the sky (like the song), and his stepfather is a happy-clappy card-carrying Jesus freak who happens to be a computer engineer. But they both realise that creationism is a fairytale, so hey, it's a start.
I am a Software Engineer (although my degree is a BS in EE). I fully reject creationism and ID.
I am an internist, and my views on IDiots and Cretins can be seen at Liberal Values where science and abuse of science by religion is a frequent topic.
I'm a librarian: can I join in?
Evolution FTW.
I will soon be an MD/PhD - with a PhD in Neuroscience - no creationism or ID (or god, for that matter) for me. I would be afraid of any MD who is a creationist and (if I ever get in that position) make every effort to get any religion out of medicine.
I'm an MD, certified in Anatomic and General Pathology. I have just taken over supervision of the microbiology lab at our hospital. If it weren't for evolution, I'd be out of a job!
My wife is a DO and certainly not a creationist.
It's pretty funny how IDist/creationist engineers practice their own profession without ever invoking non-material intelligent agents, but when they get home and get on their blogs they try to harass scientists for behaving the same way. Apparently, when engineers take a materialist approach it's just a matter of practicality, but when the scientists do it, it's a matter of dogma.
Non-IDist engineers should challenge IDist/creationist engineers on their hypocrisy. (That's what I do.) It's more straightforward and effective for us engineers to do that than it is for us to debate evolution or religion with them.
(I would think that a similar challenge would be applicable to IDist doctors as well.)
I am an Engineering Manager with reporting staff in NY, the Philippines and Costa Rica.
I've been an atheist since 1969.
MD, born & raised in southern Louisiana, but nonetheless a rational scientist and deplore the increase in creationism and other magical thinking.
My name is Brian Dewhirst. I have a BS in Physics, an MS in Materials Science and Engineering, and am currently pursuing a Ph.D. in the same.
Atheist (Secular Humanist, Metaphysical Naturalist, etc.)
I can appreciate the view of everyone here, and think similarly myself, with the exception that I still believe in God. This has not always been the case, as up until about 8 or 9 months ago I was a rather staunch atheist.
I have been a forensic scientist for the past nearly eight years, and a scientist in general for a longer time still. I decided to become Catholic last August and will be confirmed so this Saturday. I embrace the tenets of the scientific method and am equally troubled by magical or mystical thinking. After struggling with several issues, I have found for myself a balance between science and religiousity, and as long as one totally refrains from using religiousity or mystical thinking in trying to explain the phenomena of the natural world, there is nothing wrong with believing in God and/or being religious. Both religion and science are quests for truth, the former philosophical truth and the latter natural truth. Both endeavors have their place, and if approached with a balanced and disciplined mindset, a healthy combination of religion and science can be a positive and enlightening guiding force in the life of an individual.
Concepts such as the existence of God/a god, transubstantiation, a virgin birth, the divinity of Jesus, miracles, or resurrection after crucifixion and death contain a higher truth than the mere substance of the stories, and require no explanation beyond the scope of the mission of religion. If these were events claimed to have happened in a secular environment, then science would be the appropriate venue for attempting to test and likely disprove them - e.g. the human cloning claims of Raelian sex cult several years ago.
I have found that my experience with God's grace through the sacraments of confession, matrimony, and soon through eucharist and confirmation, very pleasing and they have had NO deleterious effect on my scientific approach to logic and reason. I am not the typical fire and brimstone, evolution-denying, science-avoiding Christian. To approach life that way is terribly limiting and embraces ignorance over the inherent power to attain knowledge and understanding that a scientific outlook provides.
I'm an M.D. (specialty is pathology) with an M.S. in Molecular and Cell Biology. The theory of evolution is at least as firmly supported as the atomic theory of matter, so of course I accept it as the best current explanation for the observed diversity of life on earth. And I'm appalled that anyone who's ever seriously studied human anatomy and physiology could take the idea of Intelligent Design seriously even for a moment!
So, anybody want to take a guess as whether or not this post has--in two days--received more "signatures" from MD's and Engineers than the DI's "Dissent from Darwin List?" Somebody who is less lazy than I am should find out.
Chalk me up as yet another electrical engineer that thinks that creationism is a load of bollocks. Though, as someone way back up there noted, it IS comedy gold, which is what keeps me coming to sites like this :-)
I am a chemical engineer (MS, but with BS degrees in chemistry and math). I have been battling with Creationists for years (see http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/lesson_cre_ethics_rr.htm ). I was raised as a Creationist, but abandoned that belief in college after taking a course in which I was exposed to the geologic record.
I am no longer active in the debate. Following the Dover trial, I turned my attention toward energy issues: http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/
Cheers, Robert Rapier
BS Chemical Engineering, MS Environmental/Civil Engineering. Professional Engineer in the state of Washington.
Raised Catholic, but even as a kid I had serious doubts which at the time I swept under the rug.
Now I'm atheist.
ID is wrong. All the evidence points toward evolution, so for now, evolution is correct.
Now for two quotes I kinda like:
"All models are wrong, some are useful."
"Blessed are the 1337, for they shall pwn the earth."
That is all.
BS/MS Computer Engineering. PhD Student Computer Engineering. Raised a YEC, now an agnostic evilutionist.
Former Emergency Medical Technician (Hey, he specified "healthcare provider," not MD).
AB Math, took some Computer Science in grad school, never finished the degree.
Evolution just makes more sense.
Neither of my parents is/was religious, both accept(ed) evolution. My father came from a family of secular Jews. My mother's family is probably Buddhist, but you wouldn't know it by her. Father was a pathologist. Mother is an internist.
Although I suspect one guy I knew was a creationist, Caltech is not known as a hotbed of religious fundamentalism. I am a proud atheist and a retired professional mechanical engineer. So get Wilkins off my back!
Hi, I'm a med student with less than a year left (and I get to work as a physician this summer). I'm glad to say that as far as I know, none of my course mates has said anything that would make me think anyone of them doubts evolution.
I have a PhD in electronics and MSc in electrophysics engineering.
Exposing and standing against anti-science forces is a practical and moral choice for any scientist or engineer. That incorporates the pseudoscience of all creationists, including most or all types of theistic evolution.
Full AA (Active Atheist) disclosure: I haven't read Dawkins TGD, but I suspect I may be more activist in the sense that I think our physics pretty much precludes miracles that can't be distinguished from natural events. Haphazard goddidit isn't only impotent, but also often lazily invoked without realizing the inherent conflicts with todays physics.
But that isn't the main reason I include the so called philosophy of theistic evolution in pseudosciences.
Eamon:
Nice analysis. I agree with everything you said except this. My model is that it is professional confidence spilling over into other areas. That would also incorporate neurosurgeons like Egnor.
But of course the hard cases will espouse a lot of personal arrogance as well. Not least because it is supported by the need for professional confidence bordering on arrogance.
Another full disclosure: Of course this model also makes it possible for me to be intolerable arrogant at will (within my profession) without compromises. But no model is perfect. :-)