It's been a regular gay social whirl here at Chez Myers; we're having a party tonight, and last night, we had visitors from the Great White North, or "Ottawa" as they quaintly called it: Eamon Knight and Theo Bromine, familiar names to old hands at talk.origins. And they brought Canadian beer! I encourage all Canadians to feel free to swing south and stop by, as long as they follow suit. (It's a beer called Maudite, appropriately enough, and I just got a close look at the label: 8% alcohol! Hide the lampshades, I'm going to be dancing tonight!)
Unfortunately, while they were gawking at the Big City of Morris — impressed, I'm sure, by the absence of large trees, polar bears, and glaciers — Canada got a little crazier. Or revealed some long-hidden lunacy.
John Vanasselt, with the Ontario Alliance of Christian Schools, said there is no reason why Ontario shouldn't join other provinces that make room for religious beliefs within the public education system.
The alliance's 78 schools already teach evolution in science class, but it is taught on par with creationism, he said.
It sounds to me like Mr Vanasselt has just made a case for removing state support from Canadian religious schools.
Don't let this stop you all from visiting me, though: really, there's no causal relationship between saying hello to that evil atheist in Minnesota and having your home transported back into the Middle Ages!
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Canada is a scary place to wake up in these days...
"at Chez Myers" is redundant. Merde!
Like I'd want to try sneaking past the TSA with a case of "maudite" in my car...
From my Canadian Creationist to American Standard translator:
"We spent 4 minutes presenting a distorted, incorrect description of evolution. We then spend a week proving that it is wrong and the earth is 6,000 years old and the Big Bang never happened and the stars are little lights glued to the ceiling of the world. Anyone who gets below a C is doomed to eternity in hell.
Can we have some more money from the taxpayers, now?
I hereby apologize to my fellow Canadian countrymen for helping increase the amount of creationist lunacy when I was a young and stupid evangelical christian in high school.
Perhaps I shall someday have to make an offering to PZ of other great Canadian beers in order to atone. Back Hand Of God anyone? Perhaps an Anarchist Amber Ale?
It looks like Ottawa is very much the center of cynical atheists in Canada. Check out the bayblab too.
I've never quite figured out the practicalities of accepting religious ideas as equivalent to scientific theory within a classroom setting, purely in terms of teacher competency.
I would draw an analogy with an english literature class where any other language is permitted when answering a test. How can a teacher be competent to actually mark such a test without being absolutely multilingual. Likewise, (notwithstanding that creationism is just plain loopy) how can a biology teacher be competent in marking such a religion permitted biology test without being an expert at creationism theory. And not just Christian creationism, won't the teacher need to be an expert in other religions creation teachings also?
I think the expense of training the biology staff to become experts in every religion in the world so they can mark the pupils test papers really needs to be taken into consideration.
As a Torontonian, I've been banging my head against the wall for a week or so over this.
What really made me crazy was when John Tory, the Conservative candidate for Premier stated that evolution was "just a theory." AAAARRRGH!
If this cockamamie idea gathers steam (which I don't think it will, but...) I think it's time to open the first "Flying
Spaghetti Monster School" in Toronto. Just think how cute the kids would look heading off to class in their pirate uniforms!
Never mind the xtian school nut. His comments are easily dismissed since one would expect nothing else from him. But it's the reason why anybody is even publishing his comments that has me concerned as a resident of Ontario. He was reacting to this:
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/Home+Family/070905/U090519AU.html
Well, just to keep things reasonably in synch with reality, note that the article linked quotes John Tory's initial comment but not the "clarification" given later where he said "...in religion class only."
Tory put his foot into his mouth about up to the knee, and is being roundly flogged for it in any Canadian news outlet I've looked at. But I've seen no evidence that he's actually some sort of closet creationist. He was responding to a question during a campaign stop, and I think he tried to walk an election-campaign tightrope and fell off very badly. This sort of issue has had almost zero visibility in Canada, so the fact that Tory was ill-prepared to answer the question is not terribly surprising.
My suspicion is that he's injured his election prospects with this one, and I'm not sure that the result will be altogether fair.
Overall, though, I think the furor will hurt the cause of funding for religious-based schools in Ontario. The outcry will certainly have been noted by Tory's party, and having Vanesselt quoted can only hurt the "religious funding" cause as well.
Opinion is swinging against John Tory because of his penchant for creationism. Most Ontarians don't want this crap in our schools.
mmmmmm.... Maudite.... *drool*
Yup, John Tory is a goof.
Now, let's talk beer: Maudite rocks. The label refers to an old tale told by the voyageurs that, if they sold their souls to the devil, he would transport them from the deep wilderness in their canoe to a city where they could get blind drunk and engage in all the depravity associated with the heathen godless (you know, like in my case, diaper changing and dropping the kids off at school).
Maudite's brewers also make a number of other excellent beers, including La Fin Du Monde ("End of the World"). Once, in Paris years ago, I went to one of the most wonderful places on the planet: the Academie de la Biere, where I got my PhD in hell by doing the devil tour. I only drank beers that referred to hell or the devil -- and there are a suprising number of them: Lucifer, Satan, Judas, Maudite, etc.
Maudite is my favorite beer, Canadian or otherwise. Plus its name is French for damned, very fitting for us heathen-atheist-devil-worshiping-baby-eaters. Now I need to go buy some.
1. Maudite is damn good stuff. My sister gave me some about a month ago, and I got rapidly and unexpectedly loopy having a beer (or two) with dinner on a weeknight. Hide the lampshades, indeed.
...when John Tory, the Conservative candidate for Premier stated that evolution was "just a theory."
But I've seen no evidence that he's actually some sort of closet creationist.
2. We can safely assume John Tory is a creationist because only creationists refer to evolution as "just a theory" or talk about "other theories" on par with evolution. The fact that he fell off of a political tightrope is not in doubt; what's important here is the heartening observation that the Canadian newsmedia is all over this with the message that Mr. Tory is an idiot, for multiple reasons.
And, if you're from Utah, I'm sure P.Z. wouldn't mind an offering of Evolution Amber Ale from Wasatch Breweries.
(http://www.wasatchbeers.com/evolution.html)
I know I could use another six-pack here in Dallas.
If it's all the same to you, I'll stay here. Alberta is regressing at an alarming rate even with my watchful gaze (too much oil money, too little brains. Didn't we do this in the 70s already?) When I leave, I probably won't come back as there won't be anything worth coming back to.
Ahh, a beer thread. Unibroue makes fine beers (readily available in the US), but really, Canada has nothing on the US when it comes to non-macros. And 8% isn't exceptional, really.
My suspicion is that he's injured his election prospects with this one, and I'm not sure that the result will be altogether fair.
Sorry, I must disagree with you there. Anything that keeps the CRAPs (for "Conservative Reform Alliance Party, yes, really, look it up) out of power after eight hellish years of Mike Fucking Harris is, in fact, altogether fair, and probably a sign of a more just universe than hardened evil atheists and dedicated political cynics should encounter before breakfast or bedtime...
After what the little blue landing lights did to this province, they don't deserve another chance, especially not so soon after making a nearly irreparable mess of the place.
I also think Canadians have too much sense, ultimately. There is little evidence the false science taught in Canadian schools damages much more than the chances of the students' getting into better colleges, and once in any college, the kids get the straight dope.
I hope.
On the other hand, there is Turkey, where the Discovery Institute is stirring up trouble allied with our old friend Adnan Oktar: http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2007/09/06/aid-and-comfort/
You do understand the difference between federal and provincial politics, I hope.
"Reform" and "Alliance" have no connection whatever with the Ontario PC party.
And while I'm no fan of Harris and his doings, your characterization is a gross overstatement.
sinned34 @5:
I hereby apologize ... for helping increase the amount of creationist lunacy when I was a young and stupid evangelical christian in high school.
Don't worry about it; joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, and all that.
Ahh, Canadian beer. The reason we are known as peacekeepers.
I can't believe how many people fall for the "just a theory" nonsense. I tried to explain in the comment thread at CTV News (a Canadian tv channel) what the difference is to a laymen's use of theory, and a scientific theory; but all comments are edited and go through a moderator. It's been 12 hours now, and the comment I made isn't up yet.
Citytv on the other hand, already dropped the story from their morning news to talk about Jodie Foster at the Toronto International Film Festival.
-The Flying Trilobite
http://glendonmellow.blogspot.com
Well, we're deeply fortunate to be the home of Nimbus Brewing, and their awesome british ale 'Old Monkeyshine', which is also 8% alcohol.
You would like them anyway, they're clearly evolutionists
The comment that made me afraid was:
I don't want to qet within 500 yards of any of their "fine medical doctors". I guess it's time to start reading those diplomas on the walls.
From the article labmutt linked to:
Gosh, why can't OUR politicians say things like that??
I've never heard of this Maudite, haven't been to Ontario for about 10 years. I liked Sleeman's in Ontario, Big Rock beers in Alberta, and of course, the Keith's in Nova Scotia that I grew up on.
When we lived in Calgary, my son attended a Catholic school from K-2 because we were (on paper anyway) catholic and it was closer than the nearest public one and a good school.
As I've lived in the US for the last eight years I'd like to say that the school was only very nominally catholic with very minimal religious instruction. So although it is a separate and parallel system to the public schools (you choose where to direct your taxes), it doesn't mean the same as the term 'religious school' might mean in the US.
The Ottawa Centre of the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada (RASC) is trying to counter this attack on our education system:
http://www.ottawa.rasc.ca/science/index.html
Chuck
That was my experience with the Catholic schools I attended in Edmonton from K-9. I do recall spending a substantial proportion of my time in Religion class coming up with the ideal blend of Crayola crayons to colour Jesus' skin, since even at the age of seven I somehow knew that someone who wore a robe and sandals all the time couldn't be accurately rendered with 'Apricot' or 'Peach' alone.
Other than that, and the occasional assembly at Christmas or Easter, it wasn't all that 'in your face' religious at all.
That was my experience with the Catholic schools I attended in Edmonton from K-9. I do recall spending a substantial proportion of my time in Religion class coming up with the ideal blend of Crayola crayons to colour Jesus' skin, since even at the age of seven I somehow knew that someone who wore a robe and sandals all the time couldn't be accurately rendered with 'Apricot' or 'Peach' alone.
Other than that, and the occasional assembly at Christmas or Easter, it wasn't all that 'in your face' religious at all.
Scott,
You are right, Interrobang is completely off when he mistakenly implies a connection between the provincial Conservatives and federal terror-inspiring ruling party of Harper and his other little evangelical nutzoids.
Interrobang,
You are right, Scott is completely off when he says it's unfair that Tory would be criticized. Mike Harris left a big honking stain on this province. As for Tory, he says it's not fair for people to associate him with his party predecessors, now he's asking that we ignore what he says while visiting theist groups. He claims his lack of political experience and past as a corporate CEO makes him credible (Gee, we've never had a politician like THAT before, huh?). Personally, I find it rather frustrating that the moron's polling so high. I'm having Larry O'Brien flashbacks here (Ottawa reference).
Okay, for the record: I very much enjoy the punch of Faxe Strong out of Denmark. Awesome stuff. 10%, though, so be careful.
thecdn: Maudite is out of Quebec, I believe. Struck me as a little skunky. Perhaps I just got a bad one.
I'm drinking some Maudite right now. Mmmmm!
This is what helps me listen to the talk radio show currently playing in the background. The Ontario finance minister is fielding calls from a bunch of mouth breathers who think funding "faith-based schools" is the only fair solution. Some are arguing that the costs are a tiny percentage of last year's provincial budget surplus.
However, Sorbara is batting hard, pointing out the divisiveness of religious schools, as well as the mounting costs as religion after religion starts their schools and comes to the government with their hands outstretched. Tory's claim is that 53,000 "faith-based" students will benefit (excuse me, but I need to swig some Maudite each time I type out that braindead talking point), but Sorbara rightly points out that more and more children will go into these schools and funding to the public school system will suffer.
He's claiming that public opinion is against funding these schools, but he may have a hard time fighting against the perception that current funding is unfair because Catholic schools get public funding. Under legislation dating back to 1867, there were two school boards, Protestant and Catholic, with Protestant schools (now the secular public school system) getting full funding and Catholic schools funded only to grade 9. In 1984, a Conservative government set up Catholic schools to be fully funded.
The relevant act would have to be repealed in order to yank all funding from Catholic schools, and no government, Conservative or Liberal, has shown the balls to do it. This is what gives Tory the leeway to moan about fairness in education funding. Someone should damn well just grasp the nettle already, but it won't be the Premier, whose wife teaches in the Catholic system and whose children also attend Catholic schools.
(Amended, not repealed. Maudit Quebecois beer!)
It's 5PM here in Montreal; my bioinformatics day is over, on my desk there's a biology textbook and no programming books (because I need to learn more biology but I'm already a programming god). The weather says it's 32 C outside (for you Americans it means SUPER HOT in Fahrenheit) and I know exactly what I'm going to do now: head home, buy a bottle of Maudite on the way and drink it all to your health, guys! It's been a few years since I had one of those, but this thread makes me thirsty. Soyez maudits, you pharynguloids! (But have a good weekend nonetheless)
Mary (#32) wrote:
He's claiming that public opinion is against funding these schools, but he may have a hard time fighting against the perception that current funding is unfair because Catholic schools get public funding. Under legislation dating back to 1867, there were two school boards, Protestant and Catholic, with Protestant schools (now the secular public school system) getting full funding and Catholic schools funded only to grade 9. In 1984, a Conservative government set up Catholic schools to be fully funded.
The relevant act would have to be repealed in order to yank all funding from Catholic schools, and no government, Conservative or Liberal, has shown the balls to do it. This is what gives Tory the leeway to moan about fairness in education funding. Someone should damn well just grasp the nettle already, but it won't be the Premier, whose wife teaches in the Catholic system and whose children also attend Catholic schools.
Mary, the "relevant Act" is the Constitution, and you know very well how delighted we Canadians all get at the prospect of another [expletive deleted] round-and-round of constitutional reforms. Secondly, if you look at the Statistitcs Canada tables, here, you will see that at last official count, the province of Ontario's 11,285,550 people included 3,911,760 Roman Catholics, which is to say about 35% of the electorate. "Grasp the nettle," indeed: please tell me what sane politician, anywhere, is going to deliberately p1$$ off 35% of the electorate?
You know, there's a reason there are Catholic schools up here -- you may not be religious, but the political institutions have to accomodate the majority who are, huh?
In politics, you don't solve the problems you wish you had ("Hey, Kids! Let's all just put on pirate costumes and make that silly religion thing go away!") -- you solve the problems you actually have. And, they usually boil down to (in the words of the late-20th C. philosopher, Rodney King) "Can't we all just get along?"
It is, in fact, fairly unremarkable (and, as several posters above have noted, fairly innocuous) that large amounts of taxpayers' dollars get spent on "Catholic Education", when large amounts of taxpayers are "Catholic".
Think about it: science isn't religion -- but science isn't politics, either. In case you hadn't noticed.
Cheers,
Talpa Loquax
Hey Tory being a closet creationist is nothing. Our mayor here in Ottawa (Larry O'Brien) is a closet fascist. Looks like it's under control, at least for now; seems our veteran councilors politely took him aside and calmly explained to him that fascism hasn't been cool for like 60 years...
Hey Tory being a closet creationist is nothing. Our mayor here in Ottawa (Larry O'Brien) is a closet fascist. Looks like it's under control, at least for now; seems our veteran councilors politely took him aside and calmly explained to him that fascism hasn't been cool for like 60 years...
Hey Tory being a closet creationist is nothing. Our mayor here in Ottawa (Larry O'Brien) is a closet fascist. Looks like it's under control, at least for now; seems our veteran councilors politely took him aside and calmly explained to him that fascism hasn't been cool for like 60 years...
It's now 7PM, I've had that beer (see #34). Are you all feeling more healthy? :-)
On a more serious subject, I'm wondering how much Montreal (and the rest of the Province Of Quebec) is being targeted by creationists. I haven't heard of anything particularly worrisome, but if I do, I think that I will become an activist and oppose it. Right now I don't do much except real science.
I remember a few months ago seeing a poster from a religious group advertising spiritual sessions on campus (I work at a university). The title of the poster was "L'absurdité de la vie sans Dieu" (The absurdity of life without God). For the first time in my life I became a vandal, I took a black pen and crossed out "la vie sans" so that it read "The absurdity of God". Not particularly clever, and not particularly well behaved, I know, but I just didn't like the propaganda.
Pierre
It sounds to me like Mr Vanasselt has just made a case for removing state support from Canadian religious schools.
Well, the Catholic system isn't particularly religious, and these guys (Ontario Alliance of Christian Schools) aren't receiving state support. And never will in Ontario. We have a metric assload of non-Christians**, and they'll want funding for their religious schools, too, and no one is willing to get on that merry-go-round.
(** Southern Ontario is listed as the world's most religiously and ethnically diverse area, including probably the highest density of neo-pagans per square mile)
Interrobang: After what the little blue landing lights did to this province
"Nuke 'em 'til they glow, then use the little blue buggers for landing lights"? I thought I was the only one ....
Nicely done! Thanks to growing up with a number of graffiti-writing friends I learnt to carry around a roll of stickers (being artists they would draw their own, while I would print mine off) that contained handily subversive messages. It's a lot more efficient to just slap a sticker on some ridiculous bit of advertising or propaganda; you can't always take the time to whip out a marker and do a bespoke bit of suitably ironic defacement.
You've joined a long and venerable lineage of counter-propagandists, my friend. Now, where did I leave my black cloak, red flag, and cast iron bomb... :)
I actually just moved away from Montréal, but while I was there I partook all of the Unibroue beers, my favourite being Blanche de Chambly. It has got lemon-y goodness aplenty, but people don't show it the love for some reason... There was another one whose name I forget (I "had" to drink a few) that had a strong whisky malt flavour to it. I'm normally a whisky drinker so that was a pleasant discovery.
Pierre: Amazing, but I did also see a poster in the McGill area about a year ago for an obviously creationist group, too. And there were anti-science fundies when I was at CEGEP,13 years ago.
(And Ottawa's mayor is a fascist? Oh, crap. I just moved there!)
I recommend Trois Pistoles. Canadian, tasty and 9%, but the foamiest pour I have even encountered. I think they make it with Triton X-100.
Pierre #39:
Holy smokes, I did the same thing! Except I changed "sans" to "avec".