I think McCain is in big trouble when Paris Hilton runs intellectual circles around him.
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So said Seth Grahame-Smith on Tuesday about the Paris Hilton video that responds to John McCain's ad comparing she and Britney Spears to Barack Obama.
I first saw the video when I was going to respond to a very nice comment here by Lisa Emrich, blogger at Brass and Ivory, musician extraordinaire,…
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In I'll see you at the…
I actually care little about Paris Hilton's antics. I find it difficult to become interested in someone's career when the origins of that career are based on a sex tape that shows that she performs oral sex poorly. There I said it. I have seen that tape, and Paris Hilton is not gifted. Not that…
I like Keith Olbermann's TV show, Countdown, and I couldn't care less about Paris Hilton. But watching him last night I was dismayed -- again -- by the meanness and stupidity and exploitative nature of his coverage of Paris Hilton. She isn't news anymore. If he insists on covering her, doing it in…
I find Paris an obnoxious little twit who is famous for being famous, but this was fantastic. I have to give her (or her handlers) kudos for it.
McBush gets into trouble every time he opens his mouth. Maybe he didn't his daily naptime.
"See you at the debates bitches!"
Loved that, even though Paris is in the "I hate you because I know who you are" category...sort of like the Lohan Clan.
Holy crap! Paris Hilton is smarter than a Presidential candidate?
This country is screwed. It's bad enough that 29% of the US has a positive opinion of George W. Bush (Link: http://www.gallup.com/poll/28093/Bush-Job-Approval-29-Lowest-Administra…)
I just decided to vote this year - what ticket is she on?
Well, really, she can't be that dim if she's so famous (for no reason) that she's paid thousands to simply show up at clubs around Hollywood. Think about it, her family can afford the very best schools, she doesn't have to work if she doesn't want, and all it took to become a mega star was to get caught in an "accidental" dirty video and proceed with the bimbo act. She is probably smarter than portrayed, but I'm sure her handlers wrote this one up. Very nice.
ha, nice! That's hilarious. Good for her.
Y'know, Ms. Hilton never seemed especially attractive to me... Before now.
I think so, but the Ad doesn't lack of political criticism against Obama. It's not simply to say "Don't Vote Obama because He is Famous" but "Don't Vote Obama" for such things as taxes, drilling oil in Alaska, etc. However, the inclusion of Paris Hilton and Britney Spears images is very unfortunate.
Okay, this is clever and funny...
But is she really hot? Really?
Oh I'm no fool. I'd bet she's measurably smarter than the character she plays on TV and in the Tabloids. But that doesn't make her any less annoying.
I mean look, we're talking about her. One of my least favorite things to do. I try to avoid making any of that crowd a part of my life in the least.
This was a good stunt.
The real dimwits are those of the general public who make it possible to be famous without anything to really show for it, or for making a moron president, i.e. The People!
Look at Mr. Darwin's reaction to by mistake turning on 'Big Brother live': http://network.nature.com/blogs/user/charlesdarwin/2008/08/04/i-underst…
Paris Hilton's energy plan sucks. I never thought I would ever see those words in a sentence.
"Drilling for oil now to tide us over" doesn't work, because by the time the oil begins to flow we should already have the other parts of the plan in place, making it less necessary. It's not supposed to be a short-term solution.
Also, McCain was never opposed to alternatives and Obama has signaled a willingness to compromise on offshore drilling, so at this point they're all basically on the same page.
I'm with you Claudia. Do men actually think she's hot? 'Cause I think she's just so weird looking... and generally (except maybe in this case, but I'm sure someone wrote the script for her) not very smart.
Finally, Paris Hilton has done something useful with her life. (I can't believe I'm actually admitting that.)
Even if this video will be less than a nine-day wonder, at least it was funny.
It's the first time I wasn't annoyed by Paris, but entertained.
Watching the video I got the impression that she isn't as dumb as she apparently wants us to believe she is.
I particularly liked the Crypt Keeper comparison...
Hmm.. early swipe at senior citizens, nice. Love how it is so hip to debase older people.
Sure she is intelligent, at least enough to make herself a good deal of money playing up the bimbo stereotype, which doesn't do much for the image of women in general but at least she is rolling in green, *shrugs*.
Paris Hilton? That's a 5-star hotel in the capital of France, no?
I know, LisaJ! I could even understand if she had a nice body or something, but there ain't nothing there! She's shaped like a gangly boy. And I realise I'm going to sound like a jealous woman or something, but seriously, I'd rather my phat-azz than her buttflap. Now, Salma Hayek is the thing lesbian dreams are made of...
She's just reading a cue card written by someone who thinks they can pass themselves off as intelligent. Look at her eyes. Kind of funny if you suspend your disbelief, mostly weird and stupid. This election is bizarre...
Do men actually think she's hot?
I'm sure I would if I was a dude.
When I started my blog in 2005, the first real post I ever wrote included a list of things that would vanish without a trace if I were the sole arbiter of popularity and taste. In it I said,
Paris Hilton? Gone already.
No one is more surprised than me to find myself writing a post this week in which I came not to bury Paris, but to praise her (or whoever makes her decisions for her).
Funny world.
Paris for President!
She's at least as good as the two twits we've got now.
Oh, I'm a dude, and her messed up grill and gangly, over-tanned body do absolutely nothing for me. I needs a woman with a touch more fat content, yo.
Do men actually think she's hot?
I don't, and I've seen the tape.
Unlike McCain, Paris Hilton didn't finish at the bottom of her class.
An argument to moderation, draped in the trappings of some petty squabble between two jerks. What an intellectual contribution. The dial must be turned all the way to "interpret as humor" to avoid even more severe criticism.
Ooh, so she's reading a teleprompter. No American politican has ever used a teleprompter, right? right? Or got someone else to write a script for them, right?
Ms Hilton's level of attractiveness - like a barbie doll come to life. The act of pretending she has much the same substance between the ears as a barbie doll is annoying also. But then tastes do vary.
I agree with Claudia and LisaJ. Paris looks like she suffered some sort of physical trauma (car accident?), and this is the best the plastic surgeons could do with what was left. Hence the weirdly small nose and lack of curves.
As to the energy policy, which she certainly read from a script, offshore drilling is not a "quick solution to tide us over until new technologies kick in". In fact, we would start getting relief sooner with T. Boone Pickens plan of building tons of wind turbines across the plains. As it is, both candidates are starting to hybridize their ideas, so that soon they won't be very different anyway.
Regardless, this was by far the funniest thing Paris has ever done!
I don't find her unattractive, but not anything special. Plus her annoyingly prevalent position where I have to hear and see her so often doesn't help.
Damn It! Must stop commenting on Paris.
I'm going to agree with This guy. Adam McKay could make Bush look smart and likable.
Whether we find PH attractive or not is beside the point. She's HOT by definition. Because they say so. (The "they" that decide these things.)
While she owned McCain, and while she *is* attractive, that was really self absorbed and obnoxious. God, when she says "I'm just hot" I felt like puking. The feeling just got worse throughout the video.
Lame. Not even very funny, actually.
I'd vote for Paris before I'd vote for McSame.
Regarding the hotness (or lack there-of), I don't think she's hot, and I too have seen the tape. Twice.
She's too skinny.
Makes me wanna force-feed her, instead of you-know.
Claudia #10:
"Okay, this is clever and funny..."
Yeah, in a very opportunistic way. And as soon as anybody grabs that, it's not so funny.
"But is she really hot? Really?"
No. All the heat involved is simply her handlers knowing how to manipulate her image and declaring her "hot".
She's not hot. Let's get real. She's an obscenely wealthy female idiot who thinks that obcsuring her natural beauty with excessive appliance and attention to mirror and cosmetics somehow enhances it. I can't think of anything more grotesquely ugly (or stupid) than that.
Yet everybody is listening to this crap, as if the stench is an exhileration.
Didn't she appear in a "get out the vote" campaign only to find out that she'd never registered to vote (or even know she needed to register)herself?
Chris, you could always combine the two! ;)
Wow, I cannot believe I went there! I've sunk to a new low...
Whenever I see Paris Hilton, my first thought usually centers around whether or not my vaccinations are up to date an in order.
Is that all it takes? Can you guys just start declaring me hot? I'll return the favour...
Hot is a social construct for sure, but sometimes slightly weird looking is attractive. I'm not sure why since studies have shown things like symmetry to be the most highly rated in terms of attractiveness.
What's with all this knee-jerk "this sucks"? Geez, laugh a little. Or get a rectal arthropod-ectomy.
I've never found Paris all that attractive, for me a girl needs to have some booty and brains, two things Paris is sorely lacking. While this is the most clever thing she has done, I'll just chalk it up to her handlers.
Still, even if she were quite bright she is still lacking in the curves department.
Mark Borok: Also, McCain was never opposed to alternatives and Obama has signaled a willingness to compromise on offshore drilling, so at this point they're all basically on the same page.
Not true, although that's the image he's spinning. Here's a quick summary of his actual voting history with regards to permanent energy (renewables under a less-spun name) and carbon emissions over the last nine months. See also his track record for 2007 from the League of Conservation Voters, where he's the only senator to get a zero score (opposing or being absent from every environmental vote, which included permanent energies).
Don't get your news about McCain from McCain; he's a bald-faced liar. Just dig a bit into your sources and see the double-talk.
You are, however, spot-on on drilling.
OK. One has to admit is a very funny piece. And Paris masters the part to perfection... bimbo, but a smart one.
"I see you at the debate, bitches!"
LOL
OK. One has to admit is a very funny piece. And Paris masters the part to perfection... bimbo, but a smart one.
"I see you at the debate, bitches!"
LOL
What makes Paris attractive is that she is poised, demure and HOT. Those three features aren't found together too often.
I think what makes Ms. Hilton hot is that she is not horrible to look at and is extremely wealthy. ;) Actually she knows exactly what to do to keep the paparazzi interested in her... showing up at every important event and occasionally getting caught with no underwear on.
Anyway, her energy plan is kicking ass on the CNN poll.
She wasn't just mocking McCain with that video, she was talking a dig at all the rest of us who thought she was clueless airheard. Funny
I think what makes Ms. Hilton hot is that she is not horrible to look at and is extremely wealthy. ;) Actually she knows exactly what to do to keep the paparazzi interested in her... showing up at every important event and occasionally getting caught with no underwear on.
Anyway, her energy plan is kicking ass on the CNN poll.
Oh, come on you guys - lighten up! These are the jokes! It's okay to just laugh at a funny video now and then without analyzing it to death. Really!
If Paris Hilton "thinks" that off-shore drilling is part of the solution, then it must be lame, right?
Oh-oh, so do those other guys . . . .
Could this be satire layered thicker than most of us can grasp?
Could the same be said about the current election?
I for one, as a heterosexual male don't find her physically attractive. Her public persona has taken her from neutral in my book to down right repulsive.
I must say though I did enjoy that clip though.
As for attractive women, I would have to agree with Claudia, Selma gets my vote. Women need a curve or 2.
Is that all it takes? Can you guys just start declaring me hot? I'll return the favour....
WOOF!!!
Paris Hilton's energy plan sucks.
Mark @ 13: I think you're taking this too seriously. Part of the joke is that she's pretending to run for pres, and as part of that joke is outlining her platform. Her energy "policy" is a middle-ground compromise between those of the actual candidates, which makes her look, on the surface, more serious since compromise is generally the mark of an elder statesman. She drops the pose when she talks of painting the White House pink.
I feel like I should be passing around saucers of milk.
{meow}
Is Paris Hilton hot? No. She's HAWT!
Watching this video was the first time I've found myself attracted to her, though. If only I could believe that she was as literate as it tries to suggest.
Gosh, I had no idea so many people had such single-dimensional measurements of beauty. I think both Salma Hayek and Paris Hilton are hot. Let's face it, Paris has the same dimensions as many of the women with the same job--which is fashion model, by the way, although I know that's obscured by her professional celebrity gig.
One also might credit her with the fact that she does not have augmented breasts, which suggests certain reasoned limits to her own vanity that escape a great many women whom nature has endowed similarly.
I suspect that, really, the extremely wealthy generate very few genuinely stupid children--only those who don't have to use their intelligence. Most of them eventually have to learn to do so.
Others get to become president.
Oh. Superficially, I think Paris Hilton is insanely attractive. She has a great body, long, yummy legs, a pretty face, etc... But, she's kind of like an F-15. Pretty to look at, but I know if I put myself in that cockpit, I'd probably regret it for the rest of my very short life.
Oh. Superficially, I think Paris Hilton is insanely attractive. She has a great body, long, yummy legs, a pretty face, etc... But, she's kind of like an F-15. Pretty to look at, but I know if I put myself in that cockpit, I'd probably regret it for the rest of my very short life.
Damn! Sorry about the double comment. Pharyngula seems to have gotten a bad batch of bandwidth in it's morning fill-up.
That's what you get for using corn-based bandwidth, you bastards!
Claudia @19...
And lesbians are the thing heterosexual male dreams are made of.
See Rev...you can post on a Paris thread without mentioning Paris. No wait, aw poop.
I was let down when Paris discussed her energy plan. I had hoped that it involved immersing her in water and using the resultant steam to drive turbines, because she's like, hot, and all.
I always thought Paris resembled an Afghan hound. Now, you want my idea of hot, Alana Ubach is the best, hands down:
http://www.alannaubach.net/
She has geek cred up the wazoo, too.
Longtime...
It is tough to not like a "Patriotic Bitch"
Claudia is hot!
If anyone actually paid attention to what she said beyond her self claim of hotness, she endorsed John McCain's energy plan.
Funny stuff.
Nick Gotts: "Paris Hilton? That's a 5-star hotel in the capital of France, no?"
They named it after her. She's just ... that ... famous.
;)
We're all super hot... how do you think hell stays that temperature?
Never mind the fundies, it's all because of folks like us!
Geee howdy!
how could anyone who makes a career out of very little talent in the performing arts and is "famous for being famous" pass up the opportunity that Macain handed her by using her name as an insult to his opponent. It was also an insult to her though to me her entire "act" is self-deprecating.
no publicity is bad publicity she is in the news isn't she and she is not paying for it.
I did not go and see it but wasn't there a movie not long ago that had a "pretty blond" become pres? Wasn't she just doing that part in the add?
who is advising Macain any way? I mean really how is this good for him? Is his argument really that too many people like Obama for him to be elected? We should elect the guy with the least votes the least popular?
Yes, really! Look, there's obviously an enormous range of preference according to type, and it's perfectly reasonable to say "she's not my type"... but if she is your type (she is mine... or, at least, she's one of my types), she's definitely hot.
I think there's a sort of reflexive meme that eventually declares [whine]she's not even really all that attractive[/whine] about virtually every woman who becomes famous as a sex-symbol. It's as if we're obligated by the mere existence of the hype to doubt her hotness. Ironically, I suspect many of the haters would think she was perfectly fine if they could somehow just look neutrally at a picture of her, apart from the Paris Hiltonness of it all.
BTW, I haven't actually seen the ad, though I did hear the audio on the Rachel Maddow show. I agree with Jeff: "See you at the debates, bitches!" is the killer line.
Oh come on, this is ridiculous! She didn't write the ad (to be fair, neither did McCain write his) and the taunt "McCain is old" is getting real old by itself. Paris Hilton had the time and the money to buy herself an ad that makes people think she's not that stupid. And you're all loving it because you don't like McCain. I don't like McCain either, but I find her video clip really lame. Yeah, McCain IS old, but so will she (at least, I hope she'll get to be as old as him).
I thought it was funny. She was dragged into the campaign as an example of celebrity for celebrity's sake (never mind that her folks donated $4600 to the McCain campaign) and she had every right to hit back. I find her mildly annoying, but I don't actually dedicate too much energy to her one way or the other.
Actually, using Hilton and Spears as examples of celebrity just showed how out of touch McCain is. Surely any of the Lohans or the kids from The Hills would have been more au currant.
Oh, yes. This is a total win for the McCain camp, as any careful, detailed analysis will show. No wonder the McCain people are so happy today that Paris bitch-slapped their man, because really perceptive people will look past that. And really perceptive people form the bulk of Hilton's fan base, as we all know.
Claudia *is* hot!
[/seconded]
I'd bet she differs substantially from McCain regarding the use of sunscreen.
Do you suppose that she'll eventually end up looking like him, because of overexposure? Aside from being taller than him, that is...
I would have expected a battle of wits between Hilton and McCain to be a fairly even contest, the wind whistling through her head while the rusty gears lock up in his.
That's the best quote I've seen in a long time.
So what we've learned here is that (with enough takes) a bimbo can read from a teleprompter. If she can manage to do it while standing up I bet she can finally land that "hot weather girl" position at Channel 9.
That's the McCain campaign spin, but it's bullshit. Both the McCain and Obama plans have the same broad goal and talk about the same industries, so she could have been talking about either one. The difference between the plans is in focus and extent. The McCain plan is to DRILL DRILL DRILL NUKES NUKES NUKES (and oh, yeah, that other stuff too), while the Obama plan is to subsidize alternatives VERY heavily (and allow more drilling if people insist).
Just read the two websites. Obama's energy plan lays out specific amounts of money in specific funds to meet specific alternative energy goals. McCain's "plan" is a nonsensical stream of buzzwords loosely organized around DRILL DRILL DRILL NUKES NUKES NUKES. It's just meaningless drivel written in that particular brand of legalese that's meant to dissuade people from actually reading or understanding it.
This is honestly the most detailed, direct statement about alternative energy in McCain's entire issue paper: "To develop these and other sources of renewable energy will require that we rationalize the current patchwork of temporary tax credits that provide commercial feasibility. John McCain believes in an even-handed system of tax credits that will remain in place until the market transforms sufficiently to the point where renewable energy no longer merits the taxpayers' dollars."
@Claudia
Now, Salma Hayek is the thing lesbian dreams are made of...
Not just lesbian dreams, although you've now added another dream to my list of dreams involving Salma Hayek.
Paris, like Spamela Anderson, just seems skanky to me. They're Star Trek girls: To boldly go where every man has gone before...
This "hotness" debate is making me laugh. Speaking as a heterosexual woman (who is also a feminist), I believe that Paris is absolutetly beautiful (physically) and very hot. Would I trade in my middle-aged out-of-shape body for Paris'...in a heartbeat, bitches!
For all of you women who questioned whether or not Paris is hot, stop it. No matter what your true intentions are, this question just makes you look jealous and insecure.
For all of you men who say that you don't find Paris attractive, imagine her naked in bed with you, with no post-coital consequences, then tell me whether or not you think she's hot.
For that matter, imagine any young woman of reasonable attractiveness in that scenario, then tell me whether or not she would be "hot" (at least for the next 15 minutes).
Just my opinion, I could be wrong...
Claudia, I totally agree with Selma Hayek. Now that's a real woman. We could also add Charlize Theron, I think she's a hottie. Also Angelie Jolie when she used to have muscles, but not the recent skeletor version.
What I would consider truly 'hot' women in hollywood, like a whole package kinda deal, is really very rare.
Yeah, I think this was an opportunity Ms. Hilton just couldn't pass up. As to her attractiveness I think she is an incredibly finely polished turd. All she really has to do is act like she is the hottest girl ever and market herself as such and people start believing it.
For all of you men who say that you don't find Paris attractive, imagine her naked in bed with you, with no post-coital consequences, then tell me whether or not you think she's hot.
*Runs screaming out of the room.*
Substitute Paris Hilton for a blow up doll in that scenario and you'd get the same result. :P
Hubris hurts@78,
No, really, and speaking as a het man, whether she really is or not, Paris Hilton looks stupid. Stupid women don't turn me on.
pfffffffft. I've seen the tape. Nothing special. I'll take Mrs. BigDumbChimp any day.
That was a very witty way to say "don't use my name in vain".
Wow! You guys really *are* good! Love it!
Way ahead of you, hubris hurts. We're guys. Whenever we describe a woman as hot or not, it's pretty well guaranteed we've already figured the above scenario in our calculations.
Having said that, I don't find Paris Hilton particularly attractive (though not particularly unattractive, either) so I'd have to take into account factors such as personality, 'chemistry', etc., etc.
Wow! You guys really *are* good! Love it!
Well, I'm merely gay, and thus not a man.
On the contrary, I think it's a legitimate issue, and it seems to me increasingly relevant with every mush-mouthed, muddleheaded thing I hear this candidate say.
I would never argue that age is inherently a disqualifier, and I know there are countless examples of people much older than McCain doing brilliant work, but... if elected, McCain would be the oldest ever to be inaugurated as POTUS for the first time. This is an extraordinarily — perhaps uniquely — taxing job both physically and mentally: Think about the before and after images of the presidents of our lifetime, and recall how much the job ages a person. And McCain's life to this point has been full of uncommon stresses — imprisonment, torture, cancer — that make it likely his physiological equivalent age is significantly greater than his chronological age.
I admit to being a partisan, but even aside from my partisan preference that McCain not become president, I have real concerns about his physical capability to do the job adequately. It's a touchy subject to approach, because of the risk of appearing ageist, but that doesn't mean it's not a legitimate issue.
Lisa @ 79
Paris is a sleek kiddie meal; by "whole Package" do you mean a double cheeseburger with lots of bacon?
Claudia, I totally agree with Selma Hayek. Now that's a real woman. We could also add Charlize Theron, I think she's a hottie. Also Angelie Jolie when she used to have muscles, but not the recent skeletor version.
Penelope Cruz.
Iman.
Emma Thompson.
Claudia's hotter than Paris. And unlike MAJeff, I am straight.
(I really have no idea who Claudia is, but trust me on this. It's the internet, and there is never anything wrong on the internet.
Max @ #90. Yes, that's precisely what I meant :
MAJeff. Agreed, mostly. But Penelope Cruz? Meh.
I'm with you Mike. Claudia is way hotter than Paris (but not as hot as Lark Voorhies--then again, no one is.)
MAJeff. Agreed, mostly. But Penelope Cruz? Meh.
Volver got me.
Hooray to those who've declared my hotness! I love you!
Hubris Hurts, I'm going to have to stand by my statement in my first comment; something to the effect of keeping my "phatazz over her buttflaps". So, there's no jealousy at work. Bewilderment at best. I don't take issue with those that find her "hot". I just don't get it. But whoever it was that was talking about personal preferences is correct. To each their own. Paris gets picked on because being "hot" is her schtick...
Lark Voorhies? I mean she's hot and all but ...
Lisa from Saved by the Bell?
Is Brownian really Screech?
I just got a really odd picture of you on Saturday mornings sitting around watching SBTB reruns.
MAJeff, OK I will agree that she does look quite good in that movie. Usually I find her annoying, but I'll give you that one!
Claudia, you're a paragon of lesbolicious hawtness. Now that that's out of the way, will you introduce me to MAJeff?
[strokes beard, fluffs chest hair, winks]
Claudia @96. Just to clarify, I didn't say that questioning another woman's attractiveness means that one *is* jealous and insecure, just that it makes one look that way. Maybe I should have hedged my bets and said, "it may make you look jealous and insecure."
However, based on the hotness votes you've received today, I will defer to you.
(BTW - this is such an absurd topic, and so much fun.)
I am hotter than Paris.
But only between 9:00 and 10:00 a.m. on alternate Tuesdays.
Criticizing Hilton, Spears, Lohan, etc. is awfully easy. Is she hot? I guess so. She certainly looks pretty racy in a swimsuit. Tastes vary, and I'm sure that many of the women I think are truly hideous (like say, Pamela Anderson) others would find appealing. Whether or not she's "hot" or "fake" isn't really pertinent to this video she released.
The fact that it is so easy to criticize Paris Hilton is exactly what got Hilton to make this video, because McCain wasn't smart enough to think twice about criticizing her. The Hilton family were strong supporters of McCain, and he was too stupid not to bite the hand that feeds him. Great play dumbass. Maybe when he's president he can compare Ahmadinejad to "a drunk limey" so as to piss off our British allies. What a moron.
This video was actually clever (except of course that her energy plan won't work--offshore drilling is not going to lead to ANY tangible energy benefits to this country for years--the crisis is now, not seven years from now, which is why this harping on offshore drilling to help us gain independence is all bullshit) and I as no fan of Ms. Hilton, think this was a witty play.
My irony detector is in danger of burning out listening to Bush's response to the oft noted fact that offshore drilling isn't going to do ANYTHING to help us in the near term. His response was "well if we had started offshore drilling seven years ago..." Give me a break. And if our oil-soaked government had made a serious investment in renewable energy years ago? Maybe we wouldn't be having this stupid discussion now. Whaddya think, chimp?
The solution isn't more oil. The solution is a move AWAY from fossil fuels. To quote McCain's own rhetoric against him "his solution sounds remarkably like the problem."
If one is worried about the theocratic or tyrannical regimes in the middle east--take away the world's dependence on oil and those regimes will collapse, or at least be far less influential than they are today.
Ah, the early 90s. It was a time of endless possibilities and open afternoons for a young, teen-aged Brownian.
My dear Lark. I may have taken a decade or so off from our fantasy love affair to date girls in real life, but she was never far from my heart.
I'm not a Penelope Cruz fan, but she, like everyone else, was great in Todo sobre mi madre:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0185125/
Moves me to tears every time I see it.
We are missing the point here. McCain was so desparate that his campaign made the celebrity ad and now he will pay for it. He is being mocked by Paris Hilton by being compared to the Crypt Keeper and Yoda. This is not about Paris Hilton being attractive, it is about a really stupid campaign ad that has nothing to do with the election. I am glad that someone responded to McCain's silly campaign ad in a humorous way, even if it was scripted by someone else other than Paris Hilton.
I see we have some Almodóvar fans.
hubris hurts, I agree! Gotta love a bit of light-hearted fun.
And Kseniya is defo HOT, bitches!
Damn, she is good looking!
Bah. You're a man's man, Jeff.
Wow, it took a whole 55 comments in for someone to make the tired, stupid "cat fight" joke!
And @ #26 - no, Paris did not finish at the bottom of her class - probably because she never finished high school at all.
Are you kidding Kseniya?! I don't know what you look like, but for those of us that find plenty o' smarts attractive, you out-hot Paris any day of the week: past, present, and future.
Now, as for me, I out-hot Paris on summer Friday evenings but only because I get regular pedicures during flip-flop and sandal season.
Everyone (I'm pretty sure) understand this. The fact we aren't talking about how brilliant McCain's add was and are talking about Paris' hot or not-hotness is because someone (Paris) who seems wholly detached from the political process rebutted (successful on the content or on the derailment doesn't matter) his add and now the focus in on her as a celebrity's celebrity and all the factors involved in that. Hotness being the #1 according to Paris.
Now I feel I must smash the side of my head with ball peened hammer.
I see we have some Almodóvar fans.
The colors! The beautiful colors! The pathos! The frenetic joy!
Strangely, I still haven't seen La Mala educación, even though it came out when I was living there.
Strangely, I still haven't seen La Mala educación, even though it came out when I was living there.
Great film (and you get to see Gael García Bernal's ass, which alone is worth the price of admission)
DobyGS:
No, we're avoiding the point because it's so obvious, and having fun with celeb hotness tawk, which only happens maybe six times a year here on Pharyngula.
I don't say this to be oppositional, however. I agree. The McCain ad was transparently cynical. The McCampaign has nothing substantial on Obama [where are the swiftboaters?] so it's trying to fabricate a "shallow celebrity" image for him, to further enhance the "inexperienced limousine liberal" image that is also being cultivated. It's a lame attempt to tar Obama with glitter. It'll work - but only for those who mindlessly mistrust anything to the left of the far Right, those who mindlessly mistrust anyone vaguely connected with the entertainment industry, and those who mistrust anyone with a college education, who are going to vote for McCain no matter what.
PZ wrote:
I think you've seriously underestimated the intelligence of the American people. Remember, the people on the left side of the intelligence Bell curve vote too and they think they have better things to do than pay attention to politics. To those people Paris Hilton is an intellectual elitist.
As in Wired magazine (that ad magazine with a few articles interspersed)
Expired: Pamela Anderson (see her photos sans makeup)
Tired: Paris Hilton
Wired: Maggie Gyllenhaal
Great film (and you get to see Gael García Bernal's ass, which alone is worth the price of admission)
I'll see it on your recommendation :). If we're talking actors - which I'm usually not, being partial to intellectuals and, I admit, professional athletes - my idea of a sexy man at the moment would be Sebastian Koch, the lead in The Lives of Others. It may be more the character, though - hard to separate sometimes.
Thank you, Brownian.
I've always thought Paris is kinda cute, though some of the things she's said have made me want to blind myself. There's nothing wrong with her nose - it's simply imperfect by today's standards of perfection, and imperfection is more interesting. *shrug*
Some of my guy friends go for her brand of hotness, others don't. She appeals to guys who like sleek, leggy blondes blessed with cute smiles and trust funds that sport their own gravitational fields.
Paris Hilton? No, not hot, IMHO.
Mary Anne from Gilligan's Isle is much more my speed. So I'm with the "oughta have curves & a mind" ilk.
I can see we're having an intellectual debate of the highest order tonite !
Ok,shes pretty,all the bits in the right spot,but boringly so,therefore: not interested !
Angelina : Hm,maybe when she was pregnant LOL
As to the video:
I thought it was hilarious,and as PZ said,if even Paris can make fun of McCain in a way that makes him look stupid,he well and truly is in trouble.I thought she came across as witty and funny,and made him look really old and retarded.
That's her hottest feature by far.
I'll see it on your recommendation :).
Do. I think it's one of his most mature films.
Pedro has always had a very strange and seemingly contradictory thing with women, one I've never been able to make sense of. Things like Hable con ella or ¡Átame!...quirky, misogynist, adoring, obsessive... just odd.
In La Mala educación there were no women as primary characters, so he didn't get to indulge that obsession and it seemed like that forced him into some different directions, and it turned into an incredible film.
If we're talking actors - which I'm usually not, being partial to intellectuals and, I admit, professional athletes - my idea of a sexy man at the moment would be Sebastian Koch, the lead in The Lives of Others.
He's not sexy now, but in those early Almodóvar films, Antonio Banderas was something to behold. And Guy Pierce in Memento.
trust funds that sport their own gravitational fields.
Shit, I'd consider switching If I could get my student loans paid off...and maybe a house.
Rev. BDC,
The Wake and Bacon alarm clock is too much. Even better, you have a "bacon" label, and it's not the only post in that category. Made my day.
Oh SC have you seen my other blog. It's chock full-o-bacony goodness. Though I've been extremely lax updating it.
...being partial to intellectuals...
Don't be sad about missing ASA this weekend. When I was registering, the first thing I did was text a friend: "There are no fuckable men here."
My opinion didn't change much over the course of the weekend. Gonna have to go back to NGLTF conferences for weekend flings.
Pedro has always had a very strange and seemingly contradictory thing with women, one I've never been able to make sense of.
Short and stupid explanation: He's Spanish. (Though Todo... is quite different from most of his others.)
In La Mala educación there were no women as primary characters, so he didn't get to indulge that obsession and it seemed like that forced him into some different directions, and it turned into an incredible film.
I think the lack of women is the main reason it hadn't appealed to me, but this makes a lot of sense, and definitely gives me a reason to see it.
Shit, I'd consider switching If I could get my student loans paid off...and maybe a house.
Tell me about it.
Absolutely right! Unblemished perfection can be beautiful, but it's also sometimes boring (as Robert Herrick saw so clearly[1]). A small imperfection so often turns out to be the spice that seasons the dish.
The trust fund deal is no part of it for me: Since my relationship with Ms. Hilton will be forever defined by nothing more than how photons bounce off her, why should I care what's in her bank account? No, it's the sleek thing that does it for me. And that's not simply a fascination with pathological thinness, either: Plenty of larger women are sleek even so, and there are skinnier women than Paris who are nevertheless less sleek (often with the complicity of a surgeon).
And my appreciation of sleekness is not limited sexual attractiveness, either. It's part of my larger aesthetic... a quality I also look for in the architecture and in the design of beautiful objects (e.g., cars, airplanes, etc.).
All that said, though, I try not to limit myself. I find I can enjoy looking a lots of women (and buildings, cars, planes...) that are not sleek. As someone up-thread said, it really doesn't pay to be one-dimensional about these things. In fact, I find that as I get older, the range of women I find physically beautiful continues to (you should pardon the expression) broaden.
I don't know whether that's a testament to my growing wisdom, or just a sign of pathetic middle age!
[1] Yes, I realize Herrick is talking about clothes; I assert the same principle applies to what's in the clothes, as well.
Oh SC have you seen my other blog. It's chock full-o-bacony goodness.
Bookmarked, and will be passed along to others who'll appreciate it. :)
Don't be sad about missing ASA this weekend. When I was registering, the first thing I did was text a friend: "There are no fuckable men here."
But in Philadelphia I had a fl...uh, never mind.
My friend whose presentation you missed is, I think, a cutie (an estimation I guess is mutual, since he's told me I make him want to convert :)). I know other women think so, too, but I don't know how other gay men see him. Y'all have preferences that are somewhat mysterious to us (which, incidentally, he's written about pretty extensively).
Y'all have preferences that are somewhat mysterious to us
It's mutual :)
I've got preferences that are often mysterious to me. It's sort of makes me think that the assumption desire is "knowable" is all fucked up. Sometimes, it's just a matter of mood. Sometimes, it's a personality that sort of drives me into "I want that..." Sometimes, well, sometimes it's just been too long since fun times and almost anyone will do :)
Who knows? I just know I really like men but I don't want to marry one...evah.
"Good sexual citizenship is never a queer option" (Binnie and Bell, 2000).
an estimation I guess is mutual, since he's told me I make him want to convert :))
Well...are you more of a woman than Elaine Benis?
I don't find her particularly hot (give me Amber Tamblyn instead), but I know others do. I also wonder what she's done to become famous. Is it talent of any sort?
I've got preferences that are often mysterious to me. It's sort of makes me think that the assumption desire is "knowable" is all fucked up.
I couldn't identify/agree more.
Well...are you more of a woman than Elaine Benis?
:). I could never go in any meaningful way for someone who was truly unsure. Even if I find a gay man attractive, the fact that he's gay takes him out of consideration. I do wonder, though, after some of my experiences with gay men and things they've said, whether or how much there is a real attraction on their part or whether or how much they're conflicted and still fighting their sexual orientation at some level. Have you ever been sexually attracted to a woman?
You know, as I was listening this morning (by podcast) to Rachel Maddow's commentary on the Paris Hilton ad, I couldn't help wondering in what ways her take on Paris' "hotness" might be different from my own. And that led me to wonder more generally what different things gay women look for in a woman than I do.
And that led me to wonder how the differences (if any) in the ways gay women and straight men appreciate feminine beauty compare to the differences in the ways gay men and straight women appreciate masculine beauty.
And that led me to wonder why I was wasting time wondering about this stuff, because...
...individual preferences are variable and unknowable enough (as this thread has demonstrated), even without adding the extra meta-preferential variables.
Still, it's always fascinating, even if ultimately fruitless, to contemplate what the world looks like from behind others' eyes.
Have you ever been sexually attracted to a woman?
Not really, at least not in the "I want to bed that person" sort of way. I mean, there have been times--like on the dance floor with a girlfriend with NIN playing--when we got erotic as hell (I left teeth marks on her neck, and confused a hell of a lot of people who were watching), and it was really that "bodies and pleasures" Foucault talks about. But, we both went home alone.
Growing up, I tried to find women sexually attractive. A Playboy given to me as a birthday gift in HS was frustrating as hell. Lord did I try to find those women hot...nothing.
But, I can easily, and do, love women. It's just not in a erotic way. I could easily see entering a lifelong, deeply and intensely emotional relationship with a woman--it most likely wouldn't involve sex though. (We could both play around as much as we pleased.)
I'm rambling a bit now, but one of the things that drives me crazy is the devaluation of friendship over the past century-and-a-half or so. Although it wasn't always such a great time for women or those with same-sex erotic desires, the romantic friendships of the Victorian era offer us something to think about. The rise of Hetero/Homosexuality played a role in destroying that relationship form, and I fear we're all worse off for it. There are so few forms of relationships available. I don't like aspects of the marriage equality movement because they work to reinforce the importance, centrality, and privileging of one relationship form over all others.
Still, it's always fascinating, even if ultimately fruitless, to contemplate what the world looks like from behind others' eyes.
I love to talk sex, sexuality, and desire. When I talk about having sex with men, though, so many straight men freak the fuck out and run away (although my best friend and I sit back and laaaaaaaauuuuuuuuugh when we talk about things--sex is funny, after all).
Sometimes I think the solidification of these categories of being based on desire get in the way of those conversations, and in the way of the relationships I'm talking about. I mean, we're all "emotionally charged bodies" (to borrow Ken Plummer's phrase), and there's a hell of a lot of commonality. We can laugh or cry or whatever.
Wait! . . . I thought you had to be 35 to run for president . . . ?!
Paris & Arnie, the constitutional amendment ticket?
Bill Dauphin makes such a good point, in that our attractions are based on slightly different criteria.
Obviously, there is a great difference between superficial desire and genuine attraction. I'm sure that we all can think of a gorgeous person whom we wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole (even if the Pole wanted to participate) because of his or her repulsive personality.
On the other hand, my father tells me that my 77-year old mother gets more and more beautiful every year. (Yes, he is a very sweet and dear man.)
I've really enjoyed this little peek into what others find attractive. I've never had the opportunity to discuss this with such a diverse group that represents different genders, sexual preferences, ages, and experience.
Well said, MAJeff.
Well said, MAJeff.
Thanks...can't tell I spend a lot of time thinking about these things, can ya?
God, I can't wait to teach a Soc. of Sexuality course again. It's been about 6 years, and that's way too long.
Right - individual preferences are inherently complex (and interesting), and also shaped by culture/subculture in fascinating ways. You sound like a sociologist, Bill (that's a compliment, in case you're wondering). ;)
Yours would be an interesting class to sit in on. (Would that I had time to sit in on classes theses days; I kinda miss being a student.)
Just to clarify things and scotch the rumors that I'm sure are already spreading, I'd like to state unequivocally and once and for all that I have never been sexually attracted to a presidential candidate.
Well said, MAJeff.
Boy do I concur.
I'm rambling a bit now,
Not at all.
but one of the things that drives me crazy is the devaluation of friendship over the past century-and-a-half or so.
Amen. By the way, I'm going to visit a gay male friend of mine this weekend (part of a couple, the other half of which I love just as much, but he'll be out of town :(), and that's one of the most important relationships I have. Getting teary...
On the other hand, my father tells me that my 77-year old mother gets more and more beautiful every year. (Yes, he is a very sweet and dear man.)
Yes, he is. Geez, you men have to stop this. I'm trying to be cynical here, y'know.
I do not care about paris or the ad but can you americans get the f***ing elections over with.
"'Cause I'm a blonde. B-L-A-N-D"
Cindy McCain better watch out. Gramps may dump the beer heiress for the hotel heiress.
Paris proves that anyone with money and good handlers can run for the presidency. Isn't that how "W" won?
I've never actually heard Paris Hilton's voice before today. Ah, the joys of strict media filtering.
As a snarky response to whatever McCain said about her or whatever this is about, it was fairly funny. Tongue in cheek, but just barely. At least she seems to have a little bit of self-awareness (and after all she's been though, she'd have to be the most vapid person on Earth not to).
But to the people who are suddenly declaring her "intelligent" or sticking it to McCain in any meaningful way: Come on. Don't be silly.
As to the burning question of whether she's hot or not, well, in this video, she at least shows that she can open her eyes all the way, which helps. Still, plastic for the most part. I think I saw some pre-surgery photos of her a long time ago, and she was more appealing then.
Well, I checked, and we needn't worry about her screwing the vote for either candidate by running. *cough*Nader*cough* She's only 27, and one has to be at least 35 in order to take the office.
She does make me think of the Garbage song "Stupid Girl":
I just have a hard time believing anyone can be so ridiculously idiotic, and then someone mentions Ken Ham... e_e;;
Whilst I have already commented in this thread (near the top), the Sydney Morning Herald web site has a link to this video now, so it has "gone mainstream" already.
Another item yesterday in the SMH (I emailed to PZ about) is a painting of "just a jew on a cross" in a national religeous art competition here has caused a judge to resign rather than have to judge it.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/arts/religious-art-prize-judge-quits-in-disg…
and
http://www.smh.com.au/news/arts/allen-let-bias-cloud-judgment-artist/20…
Maybe it was the use of the phrase "only women bleed"....
No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution shall be eligible to the Office of President - mandydax quoting the constitution of the USA.
So McCain is eligible under the disjunct I've bolded?
mandy, that's not totally true. even if you can't win, you can still screw up an election. for instance, in the 2000 election, in the state of florida, britney spears got about 5 times the number of votes as the margin between bush and gore in that state. and she wasn't even on the ballot.
mickey mouse also gets a substantial percentage of the vote every election.
@Nick: I'd not even considered that. Hehe.
@arachnophilia: Yeah, I'd thought of that, but those who vote write-in for the Presidency generally are doing it as either a protest or a joke. What I mean is that she cannot officially run, and also, anyone who would vote for her as a write-in is probably not anyone who would seriously have voted for either of the major candidates. I highly doubt that she'd be stealing votes from either candidate.
I'm confused. In the still photo Paris has huge fake boobs. In the video she has small, flat boobs. Soooo, are the saline bags removable or what?
I know many celebrities do the whole *head on someone else's body* thing, but it seems odd for the people who posted the story not to notice the conflict within the images they chose for the article.
For my part, I have something of a weakness for bright, gregarious girls with a bit of a wild side. I usually find that being attracted to someone comes about as a result of conversation rather than anything else. I've gone out with a variety of shapes, sizes, hair/eye colours, etc. and don't have any very strong preferences: I'm not a "leg man" or a "tit man" nor do I have a preference for blondes/brunettes/redheads or any of that kind of thing. There are, of course, a few women who I'd say are very beautiful, but PH certainly wouldn't be one of them: I don't care for the pinched, rather harsh, facial features.
My view: Cunning Stunt.
Reverend Spooner's view: Similar, but unprintable.
For all of you men who say that you don't find Paris attractive, imagine her naked in bed with you, with no post-coital consequences, then tell me whether or not you think she's hot.
Ick ick no. I've had cold showers that were more arousing.
Salma Hayek, now... or the late Joan Greenwood, talking polymer chemistry...
Any comment about not finding Paris "hot" are naturally going to sound like the tailless fox in the fable. But the fact is I really don't find her especially attractive. But who cares?
I'd give her credit for being smarter than she seems and I did enjoy the video, but other than that I can only manage a nonplused response to anything about her.
I'd still vote for her over McCain though. And a pink White House? Change is good.
Doug, #26
Some courses take more effort to pass than others.
Brian D., #43
"You are not allowed to change your mind. You are most certainly not allowed to correct your errors. You must stick with your previous beliefs and statements because it is wrong for you to do otherwise. You can never do the right thing, but must always do the wrong thing because you are the villain."
Glad to help you clarify your thinking.
DobyGS, #105
"If McCain announced he supported teaching evolution to all America's children I'd be a creationist."
If you ever need my services again. :)
I saw Paris Hilton's Jack in the Box ad back in the day. She wore a "don't move too fast or you'll be the first girl to streak Jack's Place" swim suit, macked down on a burger with everything, and slithered and wiggled all over a Bentley. It was hilarious. The bimbo is smarter than she looks.
Paris and her people are making fun of the Presidential campaign as a whole. It's a spoof, a parody, a farce. It's Gulliver's Travels with estrogen.
BTW, MAJeff; it's a rare person who won't switch hit regardless of the situation. Let go and pheromones can take you places you'd never expect to go.
I can't say I've ever thought of her as hot. It's not that she is physically unattractive, but ... she just doesn't push any of my buttons.
For me brains is a biggie.
The video (at least the tiny bit of it I watched) makes her sound far smarter than her usual persona, but ... meh, she still comes across as blonde bimbo. I have nothing against being blonde in and of itself, but the cultivation of the blonde-airhead stereotype puts me off.
Aside from that, a nice genuine smile does wonders - Paris doesn't seem to really smile much... and not with her eyes at all. If a smile doesn't crinkle up near the top of your face, it seems fake; she seems to be sort of observing her life rather than being in it. There doesn't seem to be any fire.
Without those things (brains, smile and fire), I could take or leave the rest. With them... well, that's a lot to be getting started with right there.
But I also doubt I am anywhere close to typical.
Bill Dauphin:
I'm not sure I agree (though I suppose I should ask what you mean by "fruitless"). Aren't you describing what's essentially an empathic process? When I try to put myself inside someone else's head, I usually find that I've succeeded in broadening my worldview in some way, to some degree.
(There are limits, however. For example, it would undoubtedly be fruitless for me to try to empathize with someone, either male or female, who was hot for, say, Ann Coulter, in the sense that no matter how well I understood their point of view, it wouldn't result in me behing hot for Coulter. Heh.)
I think it's perfectly fine to hear people comment that she's not hot to them. The media is so very limited in body types that we can often lose track of the simple fact that tastes really do differ. Personally I'd prefer Salma Hayek or Antonio Banderas myself, too. Or both. :)
I'm thinking Salma and her people are going to have to hold a press conference thanking me for the publicity... :P
I agree that Salma is special. It seems that everyone who works with her adores her, too.
Kseniya:
I meant to be reflecting on/echoing MAJeff's comments about the unknowability of desire. I certainly didn't mean to be suggesting that empathy was impossible. I think there's a difference between putting yourself (emotionally) in another's position, on the one hand, and thinking you know how they see the world, on the other. Try as I might, I can't know what it feels like to be Jeff, and to want to have sex with men (I'm not suggesting that's the ultimate definition of Jeff, BTW; it's just the context for this particular thread of conversation)... but that doesn't mean (I hope!) that I don't have empathy for him.
I want to say something glib like "empathy is putting yourself in another's shoes, but that's different from being able to put yourself behind another's eyes"... but I don't feel like I've thought it through well enough yet to defend that statement. Probably "fruitless" was the wrong word to use in my original comment: Maybe it would be truer to say that it's impossible to know what the world looks through others' eyes, but empathy is the fruit of making the attempt. Still working on a formulation I feel comfortable with....
BTW, I want to add my agreement to whoever it was up-thread who said you're hot. I can tell you're hot, even without knowing anything about how photons bounce off you.
I want to say something glib like "empathy is putting yourself in another's shoes, but that's different from being able to put yourself behind another's eyes"...
In it's most basic form, that's what compassion is--to experience the suffering of another, to suffer with them...(and oh, lord, exquisite suffering can be present in desire).
Verstehen may be what you're looking for--understanding.
You can't experience what I do, but I can hopefully communicate it in such a way as to make you understand it. And part of it, honestly, is that desire often isn't that different, though the social consequences of different forms of desire can be quite significant.
I mean, how many of us--male, female or in-between; gay, straight, queer, bi, pan, omni, whatever--have had an orgasm that left us shivering, twitching, unwilling to be touched for a while. Having post-climax mini-spasms for an additional 25 minutes can't be something that I and I alone have experienced. Looking into a lover's eyes and wanting to burst into tears can't be that isolated an experience. Pulling a tongue muscle while being overly enthusiastic (or a hamstring from getting in an odd position) isn't limited by orientation.
MAJeff:
I hear that unlike McCain, she can actually land an airplane.
hummmm
*crickets
Is she hot?
She lacks the most fundamental requirement of hotness, which is a pretty face. She sort of reminds me of Alice the Goon from the Popeye cartoons.
She has a giraffe neck, which many people find attractive and equate with Swaniness. I have no opinion on that.
From there down she's bony and boyish, but she does have nice legs.
I'd rate her a seven beer one night stand.
And with that, this thread became hotter than any celebrity.
Huh. That's interesting. What do you mean by "non-vanilla sex"? Feel free to use Pete-Rookeish detail if necessary.
Absolutely! And from what I've read on here, a class taught by MAJeff would be a superb place to get it.
And with that, this thread became hotter than any celebrity.
*blush*
Me (@169):
BLOCKQWOTZ: YR DOIN' IT RONG!!
MAJeff (@168):
I'm sure you could. You're in Boston, right? I really wish I hadn't had to miss the Pharyngufest there; I'd love to sit down and talk with you.
You can say that again!... or at least, you can once the tongue heals! ;^)
Hmmm... and here we run up against the downside of posting under one's own name: I'd actually love to talk about this, but feel constrained by the fact that doing so in any great detail without benefit of anonymity might constitute a violation of my wife's privacy. Suffice it to say that we have a straight, monogamous relationship that my wife can pretty much talk to her conservative, devoutly Catholic mother about without blushing. There are a few things beyond that realm that turn me on in theory, but I've been reluctant to raise them, for fear that the risk of disruption to our partnership might not be worth the chance that my theoretical turn-ons would work out well in practice.
Which is to say, I'm playing it safe [cough]coward[/cough].
Interestingly enough, there's a new variable: Recently we upgraded our cable service to include a DVR, and HBO (which we'd never had before) came as part of the deal. My wife and I have been watching old episodes of the Real Sex "magazine" show, and that's sparked some conversations I never thought we'd have. Odd that after nearly 25 years of marriage, a silly TV show could give us something new to talk about, eh?
Yeah, too bad that. :) I'm at home doing laundry and preparing/packing for the weekend, and thought it would be an entertaining and illuminating discussion (for all - not sure where my personal interest falls on the sociological-prurient spectrum).
You may be surprised at some of the non-vanilla thoughts and fantasies your wife has. I don't know her, so I may be wrong, but what you've said about your conversations surrounding the TV show leads me to believe that still waters might run deeper than it appears. If so, have fun exploring together!
If you know enough about something (rather than reflexively avoiding it) and decide that it's not for you, there's no reason to assume that your preference is based on cowardice - people want different things from relationships, and that doesn't seem like a problem (unless they're in the same relationship). The only exception to reflexive avoidance is behaviors suggested by drunk friends of my father-in-law - they weren't repulsive in character so much as 1) biologically nonsensical and 2) secondhand violations of Pritchard's Second Law ("if you're drunk and it seems like a good idea, it's not").
not sure where my personal interest falls on the sociological-prurient spectrum
By which I certainly didn't mean to suggest that I lack a simply human interest in you as a person. Talking sociology on another thread has me in that mode. Sorry.
Bill, I hear you re: fruitless/fruitful. This touches on something I realized one night several years ago: no matter how well I know someone, I will never really know what it's like to be them.
As long as we're removing out outer layers of clothing, here... Jeff, upthread I said you were "a man's man", but I wasn't just making a gay joke: I think you're brilliant, witty, compassionate, and courageous. A person's person, in other words.
And I would have added, "...and you really know how to put the bite on a girl on the dance floor," but you already mentioned it. ;-)
SC:
I take it as a given that everybody has some sort of non-vanilla thoughts and fantasies; the issue is how to get at discussing them, and finding out whether our fantasy Venn diagram includes any intersection, without risking what we already have (which I value very highly). Sometimes some little thing — like the addition of a new channel to our cable plan — can help these things come up organically (and we'll see what happens), but I confess I'm scared to force the issue.
No worries. I'm really nothing but some pixels to you; my expectation that you have an interest in me as a person is limited. But in any case, your taking a prurient interest in me would be a Feature, Not a Bug™: One of my fantasies is that someday somebody will view me through eyes of pure, prurient, totally objectifying lust. Hasn't happened so far (or if it has, I didn't find out about it), but... waiting is. ;^)
Kseniya:
The limits of knowledge have always been fascinating to me, in ways that have sometimes gotten me into difficulty: Long, long ago, on an internet forum far, far away, I ended up in a conversation about a German law that effectively criminalizes Holocaust denial (this was my correspondent and me commenting obliquely on a Goodwin's Law sort of exchange going on among others). My take on it was that howevermuch I hate Holocaust deniers, this law (which was written broadly enough, it seemed to me, to criminalize virtually any noncondemnatory speech or writing about the Third Reich) seemed excessive by American standards of free speech, and might tend to have a chilling effect on legitimate historical scholarship.
My friend, a German national who was almost always my ally on this BBS, was horrified at my position: His take was that the details of the Holocaust were facts, and any questioning of them, for any reason, amounted to lies. I averred that while the truth certainly exists (i.e., there's one real sequence of events that actually happened), "history" always has a subjective element... that the activity of naming facts and selecting them and placing them in a narrative context inherently involves subjectivity, even before we start consciously making judgments about what the facts mean. Absolute historical truth may exist in a Platonic sense, but all we can see are the shadows on the wall of the cave.
I was trying to make a point (admittedly a somewhat academic one) about the limits of knowledge — to apply a sort of Uncertainty Principle to history — but my friend couldn't hear what I was saying as anything other than a defense of Holocaust denial (which it wasn't). Sadly, that particular BBS shut down shortly after this exchange, and we never really got the chance to sort it out.
Wow... sorry for that digression. I don't know why I'm in such a refective mood recently....
Grr...
Goodwin should be Godwin; refective shoud be reflective.
I figure everyone has those non-vanilla thoughts... Chocolate, Coffee, Maple Walnut, Butter Crunch, and even... *gasp* ... Rocky Road. Some people are shocked by their own thoughts, suppress them, and pretend they don't exist. Some of those people end up in highway rest-stop men's rooms, looking for some Chunky Monkey.
We're stating the obvious, I guess - about never really knowing what it's like to be someone else - but it didn't really hit me that way until a few years ago. I was sitting outside one night with a guy I'd just started dating, and we we looking at a bank of trees across a field from where we sat. He pointed to the trees and said, "Hey, if you look at those trees a certain way, they spell 'Victory'." I couldn't see it. That's when it hit me - our brains were different, and I'd never really know what it would be like inside his head. On the other hand, I'd use words and phrases like "crystalline", "wiry", "glassy", "woody", "like a cowering goblin", "glowing", "hang-gliding" to describe musical sounds, and I figured he didn't always know what I meant, because he couldn't experience those sounds exactly the way I do, in the overall context of my head. Lucky for him, I guess. ;-)