Deconversion stories are almost always entertaining, so you might enjoy Andy Welfie's. When you read about his Catholic home-school education, you'll be amazed he still has a functioning brain. How would you like to learn history from a book called Christ the King-Lord of History: A Catholic World History from Ancient to Modern Times?
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I wonder how the religious nutters will react what he wrote.
Especially the following part:
He's not just a king, and not merely a lord, he's both. That does it, I better worship him. You never know...
Anyone else read the reviews at Amazon of the book?
Anyone else feel the urge to click "no, not helpful" on all the glowing 5-star reviews?
And "yes, helpful" on the negative ones?
Or am I the only one that thinks this book ought to be banned for anyone under 18?
@ #3... If i could do that without having to register for an account, I'd definitely be doing it right now.
@3&4:
I actually do that quite regularly, lol.
PZ!
you got less than 3 hours sleep it seems!
He mentions being an advocate of homeschooling. I agree with him that it isn't for everyone. I've learned more in independent study than I ever could inside the classroom. Homeschooling gets such bad pub because of it almost always being tied to religious nuts fearing the "evil" public schools and their even more "evil" secular education. However, for individuals that do better on their own than under the strict learn-this-in-one-week-or-else timeframe, it's a solution.
The main argument against homeschooling is that it doesn't allow the socialization with people of other faiths and backgrounds. That still can be done while being homeschooled. It's just those nasty old beliefs of the old (insert religious denomination here) get in the way.
Oh man, he had it easy. My seventh-through-twelfth-grade education was easily worse than what he describes by an order of magnitude or two. Hell, we were taught it was OK to kill abortion doctors (not that we were encouraged to do the dirty deed ourselves). I did go to an Opus Dei school, after all. I applaud him for realizing the cracks early on, though. I was pretty thoroughly brainwashed until my third or fourth year in college.
Aha, as I suspected when I saw the name, Anne W. Carroll, the one who wrote that history book is the founder of the Seton homeschool program. Probably more importantly, she is the wife of Warren Carroll, a "Catholic historian" who teaches at Christendom College in Front Royal, VA. Warren Carroll is an apologist for the Crusades, the Inquisition, and Francisco Franco (he is a big admirer of the latter). Warren Carroll has written a multivolume Catholic History of the West and Everything Else (no, it's not really called that), which is probably just an expanded version of his wife's textbook.
How would you like to learn history from a book called Christ the King-Lord of History: A Catholic World History from Ancient to Modern Times?
I would rather learn history from a book like that, (although I am not a Catholic) than learn philosophy or NONtheology, from an asshole like PZ Myers.
Books like that are the one reason that I have some real concerns over my kids' preschool. They use the "A Beka" curriculum, which you should google if you want a good scare. Fortunately, they only deal with it until real school starts, and that preschool is the only one in the area that actually works on reading and math, so I'm not that concerned. My son (the older of my two) does occasionally burst into a Jesus song, but I expect that'll drop off. Given that we pretty much only step into churches during weddings and such, that I identify atheist, my wife's beliefs include "none of your damn business", that my kids' favorite "uncle" identifies atheist, and his wife is squarely in the "stuff like that could be cool, but..." category, I'm not too worried about my kids ending up pre-programmed Jesus-bots.
My kid identifies more with Green Lantern, anyway, because the powers are cooler. A strong inoculation of Scooby-Doo helps, as well, and the most recent incarnation is self-aware enough that parents will laugh, too.
@Lluraa the troll
How about this, then -- learn history from a historian, and biology from PZ. You might even tie them together with a bit of anthropology or behavioral sciences. You might find out that the most important place in the world isn't a backwater on the eastern end of the Mediterranean. Frankly, there are a lot of more interesting places out there, where quite a greater number of interesting things have happened. I'm partial to Chinese history, myself, but it likely wouldn't show up in the aforementioned text until the Jesuits get there...
PZ,thank you for the middle-of-the-nite tidbits for us Southern Hemisphere inhabitants !!
Lluraa,
//I would rather learn history from a book like that, (although I am not a Catholic) than learn philosophy or NONtheology, from an asshole like PZ Myers.//
Im sure this will get you dungeoned then,Im just curious why you would write it in the first place,what is your purpose in posting here,what do you do when you dont insult people on internet blogs? Do you have a happy life? I just dont get it.
Llauraa @ 10
Good grief, are you losing your mind? Actually, the book should be retitled "Fairy Tales for the Brain Dead That You Will Believe", and dedicated to you for services rendered. How come that book was written by a human and not your imaginary god?
Im sure this will get you dungeoned then,Im just curious why you would write it in the first place,what is your purpose in posting here,what do you do when you dont insult people on internet blogs? Do you have a happy life? I just dont get it.
You mean only people who agree with the atheist agenda may post here? My Bad. I thought you guys were open to all points of view. I thought you guys were truly liberal and appreciate a good argument. I didn't think you guys were close minded like the "fundies" you abhor.
Not that i expected you to,but...you didnt answer my questions.
As to the "atheist agenda",sorry to disappoint,thats like the soccer fans agenda,there is no such thing,i know,it makes your arguments so much more difficult,but no,atheists are a pretty diverse bunch on any given topic,no agenda here....
//I thought you guys were truly liberal and appreciate a good argument//
One needs to be liberal to appreciate a good argument?
I just get the impression your head is full of prejudice and preformed ideas,and noone and nothing will ever convince you otherwise.Its sad,actually.
Good insight.
#10
Wow, you must be the coolest kid in kindergarten!
My favorite part:
Seems quite relevant to last night's discussion on the "Oh, no! I've been caricatured!" thread.
lluraa @15: No you won't be banned for having a differing a viewpoint. You are likely to be banned because, based you called the owner of the blog an asshole.
People don't like having unprovoked abuse flung at them.
stupid paste shortcut. Ignore ", based on"
Clueless Lluraa @15
But we do like a good, well reasoned argument.
Why, do you have one?
I know, I know, feeding a troll. But work is a little boring at the moment
LLuauurraa
No, I'm sure you can post here all you'd like as long as you don't become a belligerent asshole. However if you do post here and say stupid, unsupported and insane things, you will be taken to the carpet for it.
Come back to the previous thread and talk about your Mormonism some more please.
This deconversion story is a pretty fascinating look into Catholic schools.
This is particularly scary.
Matt Heath is spot on. Lluraa crossed the line with her egregiously insulting post at #10.
> I would put it in my pocket, or something. I just
> wouldn't let it in my body.
Oh come on Andy, no harm in eating it, it's only a cracker! :p
[1] Wrong - haven't you been paying attention?
[2] Only to points of view that make sense and, you know, have a point...
[3] When have we ever seen a good argument from you?
lluraa @15: No you won't be banned for having a differing a viewpoint. You are likely to be banned because, based you called the owner of the blog an asshole.
People don't like having unprovoked abuse flung at them.
I felt free to use the term AH because of the doctrine, "nothing is sacred." If indeed, refering to the professor is a serious offence, and if I have hurt his feeling, I apoligise, and realize that while nothing is sacred PZ Myers is.
You're pretty dense aren't you? Honestly I'm pretty sure PZ could care less if you call him an asshole. However, it would be interesting if you could come up with a reasoned argument for something, anything though. So far not a single one of your posts has done that.
Lluuuararara, tell us about how Native Americans are the descendants of the Israelites.
//If indeed, refering to the professor is a serious offence, and if I have hurt his feeling, I apoligise, and realize that while nothing is sacred PZ Myers is.//
LOL
You know Lluraa,its ok to argue like a teenager if you are indeed a teenager,but if youre not,its kinda embarassing...:-)
llluuurrrraaa@28: He's not sacred. He just owns this blog. As such he has every right and reason to ban people who chuck random insults at him.
Llauraa, your ignorance combined with your arrogance make you an idiot. It's true, that nothing is sacred, but not everything or everyone is worthwhile. Jog on, troll.
Great cartoon about bugfuck crazy Mormon doctrine.
Besides, there is still a difference in not holding everything sacred and outright insulting people by calling names.
Llurraa (I thought it was Llaurra)
If you actually read that book, and others written for Christian schools, you might actually see how ignorant that statement is.
I have read those texts, and the amount of necessary information left out is shocking. For example, if The Enlightenment is even mentioned, it is merely a sentance or two. And this was nothing less than the foundation of the great experiment that is America. Writers and thinkers and statesmen such as Descartes, Locke, Paine, Franklin, Madison, and Jefferson are cast aside while entire pages and sections are spent on preachers like Johnathan Edwards and Roger Williams.
You also said
More bullshit. I post frequently and have stated frequently that I am not an atheist. I believe, as did Einstein, in the god of Spinoza, that the natural world is god in its entirety. No one causes me any grief about that, because everyone knows, as I do, that there is no natural evidence that can either prove nor disprove the existance of God.
What we do have evidence for, however, is that the bible is nothing more than an old book, written by Bronze Age men, filled with childish stories, that attempted to explain what was unknown two thousand years ago. The further we pursue actual knowledge, the more the religions become obsolete.
I am very open to other points of view, but when they can't be backed up by logic or fact, I discard them. You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts.
Do you still believe in an inerrant Bible?
If you include the book of mormon then yes she does.
I just posted my own deconversion story on my blog last night. I wasn't raised by fundie Catholics but by fundie Pagans. The result is always the same, no matter what religion is feeding kids utter bull-- imaginary ideas learned as facts, which take kids decades to un-learn, if they ever un-learn them at all. I am with Dawkins in that I consider teaching kids fairy tales as fact to be tantamount to abuse. (Why, yes, I am still a mite angry about it!) ;)
PZ, thanks for the link! It was cathartic to write that story, and although I hope it doesn't reach some of rabid Catholics I knew from my youth, if it does -- who cares. I'm sure they know by now that I'm a heathen. (-:
Thanks, friends, and keep up the good fights!
Very long read, but I didn't regret it. Thanks for linking to that article.
Myself I was always an atheist... Because I was raised without any religion around me and thus when I learned religion existed I was sorta progressively creeped out. Existence was existence, facts were facts, s'all that mattered to me you know. Reality. We had christmas, but I had no idea back then that it used to be about some dude supposedly born on that day. Christmas was Santa. It was only when I went to school that I started to learn that some people went to something called a church around that time. Just sounded silly to me, and it was even more silly when the school forced me to go there someday. I think I was in 4th grade.
Sitting in a big place that smelled funny certainly wasn't my forte... And to have some dude tell me that Santa is actually based on one of THEIR saints... Don't bullshit me. Tiny me was outraged. Santa's the big fat red Coke guy that gives me presents, not a saint dude who thinks I'll go to hell. Of course by then I pretty much knew Santa was fake, but still, Jesus? Died for my sins? Sounds like a big stretch to me! Santa's more believable, and he was more hardcore. He lived in the frickin' north pole. And he could fly. Jesus supposedly lived someplace warm. Plus, Santa had full God powers. He was spying on everyone.
Nowadays I realize I actually have a sorta christian mom - she drags around a cross with the "virgin" (You can suck all the dick you want...) in her pockets. But that's the nice thing, I never realized I did until I was an adult. And even today she never mentions it to me. I just see it when she does her laundry, cuz she leaves her stuff on the bathroom's counter.
Great read Andy. Really.
Michelle wrote:
And to have some dude tell me that Santa is actually based on one of THEIR saints...
Which is another lie, since Santa and his reindeer(s) is/are based off Wotan (aka Odin) and Sleipnir.
Ahh, the tags customers associate with this book are made of pure win:
biased (6)
misleading (5)
one sided racist history (5)
propaganda (5)
bigotry (4)
anne w carroll (1)
homeschooling (1)
one sided racist history (1)
so-called catholic history (1)
This part of Andy Welfie's post resonated most with me:
That's what I think, and IIRC, it is Prof. Myers' position too. So many times we see people come along here who don't understand this. If you don't actually, actively believe in any gods, you're by definition an atheist. Whether you are willing or able to call yourself that or not, you're one of us!
@#6 (moother): PZ has a device in charge, which in intervals puts his previously written posts into the blog. Very easy, very effective, write once a day and have then multiple updates over the day, keeping the reader interested. It works for me!
@#40 (Chris): I immediatly looked it up in wikipedia. Interesting read. And Odin is much more appealing than Santa.
Note, Lluraa, or whatever you're calling yourself, that you have NOT been dungeoned?
Even the most egregious trolls are tolerated here for a good long while before betting banned. So post away to your heart's content.
The only sanction is ridicule. Say something stupid and expect to be laughed at.
That much is guaranteed.
@Perky Skeptic: Thanks for that, it was really interesting.
One of us! One of us! Gooble gobble! Gooble gobble! One of us!
#36 The Perky Skeptic: I just posted my own deconversion story on my blog last night. I wasn't raised by fundie Catholics but by fundie Pagans.
I don't think you can call your parents fundamentalists. From your blog posting, they do appear to be fanatical, but that's different from fundamentalism, which refers specifically to the fanatical belief that a document is the inerrant description of reality; even a fundie Catholic would be a heretic according to standard contemporary Catholic theology.
Keep that word meaningful - it applies to Catholic heretics, Islamic orthodox and a great portion of Protestants, but not to Hindu fanatics (most), or close-minded Hopi.
That's rather an oversimplification. The Santa concept draws on all sorts of sources, including the St Nicholas legend, Norse legend, German/Dutch folk traditions, Charles Dickens and Coca-Cola advertising.
Cute. Really cute. :-}
No, it won't get you banned. Have a look at the dungeon to see what could get you banned.
And now let's talk about the magic underwear! What does it look like?
David (#49)
If you want to know about the "magic underwear" also known as temple garments, just look here (article includes pictures): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment
Llaurra @ 15
It's not an argument you are slathering us with, but an abject trial of dealing with a religion crazed mind that cannot offer a sensible subject worth discussing. A debate is based on equal but opposing points of view to determine which has more merit overall. How does one argue with religious insanity to the realities of reason and science? Now, if you wanted to debate whether Jupiter and its moons is a better system than Saturn and its moons, then we can do that and all the facts will prevail to choose the best system. Arguing with you is akin to trying to prove the existence of the tooth fairy and trying to get us to even consider the possibility. What a waste of time and brain cells. I'll quote our friend Thomas Jefferson whose statement is known to all rational people and is most assuredly directed at you.
"Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them."
No argument there, and certainly not from you as you try to refute the statement. Here, have a cracker.
A couple of weeks ago I described my experiences at a Catholic school. The point was that the Catholic church infiltrated every bit of education with its own propaganda. For example, I mentioned that I did not realize that George Washington was not a Catholic until I was thirteen.
At that time I was told by another poster that I was making stuff up.
I wasn't. Andy Welfie's site backs me up. (Actually, I think his experience was even worse than mine except he did not have to put up with nuns cracking him on the knuckles.)
Just remember, a "good, Catholic education" is Catholic in every respect. It is as more about inculcating you with the Church's point of view than it is about education. (We certainly can't have anyone thinking outside the Church's box, can we.) You are supposed to become soldiers in the army of Christ; everything else is secondary.
I am so glad I got out of those schools before high school.
A history book with a fictional character in the title. Now that's rich.
Lluraa #10
That has to be one of the funniest things I've ever seen.
And moother #6
He needs but little sleep since he can draw upon the Power o' the Ilk !
Come on Llllllllllaaaaaauuuuurrrrraaaaaa, tell us about the magic underwear! After all, it's the USP of Moronism! What other crazy cult has magic underwear???
@Chris (#40):
The Dutch have a holiday on the 5th of December called Sinterklaas which is most likely where the name Santa Clause comes from. The guy was a Catholic bishop somewhere in Turkey. That is all that is left of the American version though.
According to that Wikipedia link from Arthur above: Orthodox and Hassidic Jews, some Messianic Jews, Sikhs, and Zoroastrians.
Of course, none of them believe that Bigfoot is really Adam & Eve's son Cain. So, crazy point goes to the Mormons.
my sister learned "history" out of that book. public school was good enough for the likes of me and my next brother, but my family became charismatic catholics when i was a teenager and decided my younger 2 siblings would be homeschooled.
and they can't figure out why my sister has no knowledge of history or geography or really anything. she seriously couldn't identify a single mountain range in the united states a few months ago when we were playing trivial pursuit.
and it's not that she's stupid. it's sad that my parents' fear of the world's corrupting influence has affected her life in this way. her life aspiration at this point (she's 20) is to get married and have 10 kids. it just really makes me sad.
@Who cares # 56
Yes, Sinterklaas means Sint Niklaas, which is where Santa Claus is derived from.
However, back when, children would leave their boots out by the hearth on Solstice Eve, filled with hay and sugar, for Sleipnir's journey and in return, Wotan would leave them a gift for their kindness.
Sounds familiar? It should, because the christians have a tendency of 'incorporating' pagan rituals, myths and stories -- like christmas and easter -- into their own cult.
I dunno about the magic underwear, but it can be shown that Mormons have some damn sexy architecture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx6EQLc1wW4
Lluraa Loves Lies!
"Matt Heath is spot on. Lluraa crossed the line with her egregiously insulting post at #10."
I thought it was egregiously hilarious, myself. I mean, "NONtheology" used as some sort insult word, ha! Yeah, PZ won't be doing any writing about how many celestial Mormon gods and their heavenly harems can dance on the head of a pin, that's for sure.
#34 Benjamin Frankin says:
Definitely far too much of the former, but I wish people knew more about Roger Williams, who got kicked out of Massachusetts for heresy and went on to found a colony, and a church, specifically on the principle of separation of church and state - and then, less than a year later, left the church he himself had founded. Why? Because it was threatening to fall back into the old patterns of persecuting dissenters and attempting to dominate the civil government. He spent the rest of his life, much of it in traveling back and forth to England, working to secure his colony's charter and continued existence as the world's first truly secular political entity.
That's right, the world's first truly secular government is the oldest and greatest Baptist legacy. Not that Rhode Island ever got it right, but it served as a working model for the later development of the US government system.
Another way Williams was centuries ahead of his time is in his advocacy of the rights of Native peoples as the original holders of the land and possessors of their own culture, thought, and belief. On more than one occasion he held them up to his fellow colonists as more "Christlike" in their actions than his fellow Christians:
Granted, Williams remained a man of his pre-Enlightnment time in that he thought and spoke in religious terms; the notion of freedom from religion (or freedom of nonreligion) was still a century away. But old Roger would be spinning in his grave to see how many of his children have forgotten their founder's principles:
Vanity of Vanities, sayeth the Preacher's Kid: All is Vanity.
"I thought you guys were truly liberal and appreciate a good argument. I didn't think you guys were close minded like the "fundies" you abhor."
False equivalence Lll-whatever.
"Nothing is sacred" does not equal "Nothing deserves respect" or "Manners have no value."
The 'atheist agenda' of "No God means I can do what I like"
is actually a fiction by theists in my experience. Just because I recognise morality as a human construct doesn't mean I don't value it. I strive to be moral- and actually moral, not just stick to an inaccurate, inconsistent milennial cheat sheet that advocates brutality and slavery.
From my perspective, theists tend to be the ones who lose sight of the value of humans and human constructs. "Those people can and should die because they aren't of our faith/are gay/want to choose their own husband" is a very traditional theist position, don't forget.
Interesting history text they used. I recently found out that "Story of the World" is used in Arizona's public school virtual academy. I'm wondering how difficult it would be to raise a stink about it. It's one thing if deluded people want to teach their kids religious dogma, and another for the state to use it as curriculum.
We homeschool but not through the academy, so it doesn't affect us personally. It just seems crazy that its happening at all.
@#58
"her life aspiration at this point (she's 20) is to get married and have 10 kids"
Can I meet your sister? We'll 'try' to have 10 kids, but I'll slip her a daily pill, or slip on a cap when she's not looking.
Is that offensive? Probably, my bad....
Yes, they are often interesting, but part of every escape from religious insanity is a wasted youth. Religious indoctrination is the worst kind of child abuse. It's legal, but the parents and preachers who brainwash children deserve nothing but contempt. This is why I can't talk to a priest without calling him an asshole. They make a living destroying people's lives, and they deserve to be insulted.
It's good to see individuals escaping from their indoctrination. Now, if society in general can do the same. :)
We homeschool using nothing but secular texts. I purchased all of my curriculum this year, on Amazon, after researching the types of texts I want to use. I'm not opposed to using something that has **some** faith in it (alpha/omega products), but I did make the same mistake a lot of first years make--I purchased Abeka and BJU(once upon a time).
Abeka is anti-everyone but their opinion and BJU is anti-Catholic, interracial dating/marriage, and also of their own opinion. Abeka does not talk about evolution at all and BJU talks about it in the sense that it is something only bad people believe in.
Seton is horrible. Very scary. Andy, it took a LOT of guts (considering what PZ has just gone through) to post what you did. Excellent post and excellent retelling of the story and more importantly, very true.
As for Story of the World being used in public schools? She does have a "secular" version available. Susan Wise Bauer and Peace Hill Press's stance is of the Christian bent, but she writes more on a guideline point of view rather than a text type. So her SotW can be made secular very easily. It's still bent and heavily flawed (her timelines are way off), but there ya go.
Toni
Jesus isn't just Lord of History. He's also the Duke of Geography, the Prince of Calculus, and the Viscount of Physics!