Non-priests too opulent, declares Pope

Bring back the sumptuary laws.

The Pope doesn't have a lot to worry about, though, Gates and Buffet's homes don't have nearly as much classic glitz as il Papa's digs.

Who's one of the largest land holders in the world again?

Classic case of: "Do what I say, don't do what i do...."
LOL

I hope you warned Catholic blowhard of the century Bill Bennett of your latest blasphemy (it must be a sin to criticize the pope, right?).

Hey bill, if you're reading this, stick a goddamned cracker up your arse.

Well, duh. People are forfeiting (that's the word, right?) on their tithes! How is are the poor paedophiles gonna keep themselves in Jesusjuice and Crisco(tm) if people won't bloody pay them?

Better that a man living in luxury preach a gospel of moderation than one of outright greed. I prefer rich guys who at least pretend to look out for the common man to those greedy bastards who overtly grind up humanity for the gain of an extra buck. Not saying the Churches don't rake in their own percentage of ill gotten wealth, but it would be worse if the Pope (or any religion) were (still) actively promoting a program of wanton imperialism and greed. That's where the Republicans step in.

Enjoy.

Not saying the Churches don't rake in their own percentage of ill gotten wealth

An argument could be made that most if not all of their gotten wealth is ill-gotten.

I am reminded of a bit of history that I know. In ancient Egypt, as the power of the pharaohs declined, the size of their monuments increased. New Kingdom monuments are far more flashy than Old or Middle Kingdom monuments.

Maybe the church is dieing. Hopefully the church is dieing.

The Onion goes from strength to strength. Spot on target with that one!

Spot on, PZ. I was there in 2006 and I was immediately struck by the vulgar opulence. It brings to mind the conversation the Franciscians and the Benedictines have about Christ's poverty in In The Name Of The Rose.

The other really bizarre thing you notice when you go round the Vatican is that there's a lot of statues of naked cherubs. Well, that's not what you notice, it's the fact that these chaste men felt it necessary to smash off the genitalia of these figures.

Deeply fucked up.

I look forward to the day the Pope says something like this and the headlines are: Hypocrite Speaks, Few Listen.

The height of the monumentalism of the Church began slightly before the Renaissance and Reformations. GDP spent on cathedrals and other church construction was comparable to the US defense budget.

Now, not so much. Madison had its cathedral gutted by fire a few years ago and the only thing that's been done since then is that the diocese finally tore it down because the city doesn't like derelict buildings to be sitting downtown for years.

(.)(.)

Somethings wrong if only a rapper could say "Well this decor is tasteful"

That was the Pope? That old fella living in the art gallery?

</Fr Dougal McGuire>

The way he dresses it's a wonder he doesn't wear makeup also, but that would be like putting lipstick on a prig.

So the pope is full of shit. What else is new?

So where did that church get all that gold in the first place? What do you want to bet it was taken from the native Latin America tribes? Doesn't the 10 commandments say something about not stealing?

The most telling part of this news item is the response of the audience:

""It was a vivid call to order about what is essential in life," said Herve Tarcier, a 49-year-old engineer who volunteered at the Mass. "This was exactly the message our society needs."

Jacqueline Dudek, a 76-year-old great-grandmother from Paris, said she was glad much of France's political elite was there to hear the anti-materialism homily.

"They have plenty of things to learn," she said.""

In other words, there were 250,000 attendees and each one of them thought that the popes words were meant for the other 249,999; that they themselves happen to exercise just the right amount of consumerism, materialism, and opulence that is pleasing to the lord (and this includes the pope himself).

Catholic blowhard of the century Bill Bennett

What, did he manage to edge out Bill Donohue?

"Has not our modern world created its own idols?" Benedict said in his homily, and wondered aloud whether people have "imitated, perhaps inadvertently, the pagans of antiquity?

Yep, that's what chasing after possessions does, makes you like pre-Christian pagans. Diogenes, Epicurus, Socrates: obsessed with material possessions, the lot of them.

Well, MAJeff's not around, and someone's gotta do it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W08pTLDPEFI

"You live like Versace did."

The insanity of it all just boggles credulity. The head sheep herder is spittle-flecking the rabble below in st peter's square, many of them in mangy clothes and mal-nourished, using their pittance of life savings to travel from their hovels and grovel below this wacko fraud to beg for his blessing and pie-in the-sky future rewards. Then with a smirk and mumble of placating the demented rabble, he goes back into his sumptuous quarters where every comfort is afforded by the rabble masses he just pissed on. Outrageous in it's blatant oppositions. An analogy with similiar situations is the impoverished village with single story shacks with maintained church that towers over all and to which the village sheep look toward comfort and salvation. The appalling contrasts beggars a sound mind for explanation which will never be comprehended. Only religion can create such scenarios.

It is a source of shame in the UK that our holy men just can't keep up with Old Redsocks when it comes to putting on the style:
http://omf.blogspot.com/2008/07/christians-on-catwalk.html

Hey wOOt
Check out the suliformes on this!

http://www.seabird.org/webcams.asp

better hurry, though; those chicks are nearly fledged.

Matthew 19:24

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

I cannot recall just how many times I heard this read at Sunday mass. The blatant hypocrisy.......just one of the many,many reasons I walked away and said "no more". And later, seeing him in his RED Prada shoes made me feel ashamed that I ever called myself Catholic.

Of course, none of these "material" issues held a candle to knowing so many priests were screwing little boys while my own priest (at that time) had set up housekeeping in the local rectory, keeping a married woman there and asking parishoners for donations to build a NEW rectory.

Luckily, I found Harris,Dawkins and Hitchins and blogs such as PZs. Of course, I don't agree with everything I read but, it's certainly closer to reality than anything religion can offer.

David Gerard beat you to it: "Pope hits out at consumer culture, prefers time when church owned everything"

What the pope said is much worse (see http://www.liberation.fr/actualite/societe/351798.FR.php): "L'argent, la soif de l'avoir, du pouvoir et même du savoir n'ont-ils pas détourné l'homme de sa fin véritable?"", which gives (emphasize is mine): "Didn't the money, the thirst for possession, power and even knowledge divert the man of its true end?" I had a very bad Sunday...

During the previous pontificate, the gay singing duo Romanovsky and Phillips penned a little ditty titled "Homophobes in Robes"; this is the first verse:

When Pope John Paul begins his day
Perhaps he says a little prayer
But before he tries to save our souls
He must decide what he will wear
Now he doesn't put on Dockers
Or polyester slacks
Even when he has a crowd to bless
He has an image to live up to
And he works it to the max
The pontiff makes a stunning statement in a dress

It would be easy to substitute "Benny" for "John Paul", of course. I've summarized the main point in a convenient couplet:

Each day the pope says a little prayer
Before he decides which dress to wear

The head of the Mormon Church, that is to say the Church of Latter Day Saints is Thomas S. Monson he is the Prophet of the Church and Lives in Utah.
There is so much talk about the Pope we forget about the head guys of other Religious Communities.

I am reminded of a bit of history that I know. In ancient Egypt, as the power of the pharaohs declined, the size of their monuments increased. New Kingdom monuments are far more flashy than Old or Middle Kingdom monuments.

Maybe the church is dieing. Hopefully the church is dieing.

Try a bit of recent history. The "opulent monuments" of the Catholic church are almost without exception more than 400 years old.

By your own argument, then, the church must have been declining during the renaissance and early baroque, and has been on the upswing ever since.

"L'argent, la soif de l'avoir, du pouvoir et même du savoir n'ont-ils pas détourné l'homme de sa fin véritable?"", which gives (emphasize is mine): "Didn't the money, the thirst for possession, power and even knowledge divert the man of its true end?"

Condemning knowledge? Truly, this man is a fool, the perfect exemplar of the Roman Church.

Who's one of the largest land holders in the world again?

What's funny is that the Church held a lot more land until these self-same French he's talking to destroyed the Papal States (and held the Pope captive for a while) a couple hundred years ago.

By the way, it is estimated that each pair of this Pope's shoes cost about 400 Euros. They are hand made. The previous Pope had worn plain brown shoes that cost about $50 a pair.

You mean your lab doesn't have a Bernini Baldacchino? Science has suffered under Bush.

Ah, well perhaps he doesn't have a "passion for power, possessions and money". He just takes it for granted!

I can tell you, if any one of MY private chapels was decorated by Michelangelo, I wouldn't forget it!

The head of the Mormon Church, that is to say the Church of Latter Day Saints is Thomas S. Monson he is the Prophet of the Church and Lives in Utah. There is so much talk about the Pope we forget about the head guys of other Religious Communities.

You're right - these other authoritarian pricks don't get nearly enough recognition for their own, smaller-scale, authoritarian prickishness.

Well, the (catholic, to be specific) church is at the very least declining -- it has been eclipsed twice now, first by state power and then by corporate power. Just look at who has the tallest buildings.

It doesn't mean the church won't survive for a long time. The more important thing is how much influence it has -- less and less. Sure, there are still many many believers, as those giant masses demonstrate. However the church doesn't make laws, set policy, or have the power to directly influence the activies of people and states as it once did.
I mean, they haven't burned anyone in the public square during mid-day for SO long now, you know, and the only trustworthy reason for that is they can't.

the church has, and will continue, to wither. Think of it as a half-life, slow religious decay. And it is going faster thanks to constant assault from the likes of many of us =]

Tobi #8: As much as one can sympathize with your sentiment, I'm not sure the comparison to ancient Egypt is apt. The Great Pyramid has got to be the biggest monument of all, and it is Old Kingdom. Also, arguably, Ancient Egypt's greatest relative power and wealth could be said to have been during the New Kingdom, from the time of Tutmosis III to Ramses II (notwithstanding the Ahkenaten implosion in between). Unless you're referring to the relative power of the Pharaoh vs the priests and aristocracy, in which case I have no idea.

Also, as the New Kingdom declined during the reigns of Pharaohs after Ramses II, their monuments got smaller and smaller and more and more pathetic as their coffers got barer and barer. . . .

PZ - did you pick that picture because of the spandrel?

"Have not money, the thirst for possessions, for power and even knowledge, diverted man from his true destiny?" the pope asked.

George Orwell would be proud of the pope: He condemns the very things that define the history of the Catholic Church.

There is a secular mormon death cross at the top, center - Is the pope now under mormon rule?

Pope John used to have fancy foods flown to the Vatican from around the world. There was a New Orleans chef who regularly made fresh gumbo for him. It was shipped overnight. I guess living off the backs of the poor has its advantages.

I hate to be a stickler on this, but technically that's not a picture of where the pope lives; that's the Basilica, so that's more of an office than home.

Not that that's going to let old Ratzinger off the hook or anything, since the actual Papal Apartments are just as "restrained" as the Basilica is, maybe more so (they seem to pack in more decoration per square inch.)

The post the picture is attached to is pretty fun too, about the use of infrasonics to induce emotional response and the author's experience of this in St. Peter's. Another little chip away at the "special experience" (i.e., magical thinking) of religion.

Amphiox:

Don't forget, too, that a lot of their monumental construction got cheezier and cheaper as time went on -- there are lots of pyramids that were built mostly out of fill that barely exist at all anymore. Very different construction from the Old Kingdom's manmade mountains.

Matthew 19:24

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Posted by: Nancy | September 15, 2008 12:19 PM

But it makes perfect sense! It's baaaaaad for man to be rich, so the church kindly helps him get rid of his riches. Isn't that nice? Those aren't the pope's shoes; they're the Vaticans. Matthew doesn't say anything about the church. In fact I sincerely doubt there's any theologians that claim there's any church in 'the kingdom of god'.

I second that.

unbridled "pagan" passion for power, possessions and money as a modern-day plague

Yeah, those greedy, grasping Stoics!

Seeing how Catholicism is largely the compromise between Levantine monotheism and European paganism, it's appalling that the church managed to combine the worst aspects of the two traditions.

And let's not forget that pimped out Mercedez he tools around in-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Popemobile_May_2007.jpg

Actually, in Ancient Egypt, the new Kingdom was the peak of Egyptian influence. Egypt pretty much controlled the land between Sudan in the south to western Iraq in the east. Egyptian power starts to decline after Rameses III, who is considered the last of the great pharaohs. Most of the monuments that you see are pre-Rameses III. However, the southern part of the country was effectively taken over by the priesthood in the late period and this is where you definitely see a decline in Egyptian culture. This is where the state sanctioned the robbing of tombs and the recycling of their precious resource contents. Large tombs became painted paper-mache or wood mummy cases.
This priestly period is where most of the really famous painted mummy cases come from. However, most were found in re-used tombs.

All the pomp and circumstance serve to make people feel small, insignificant and overpowered.

Like with much of today's media frills, the glitz detracts from the content. It's so much easier to feed the distracted believers doctrinal bullshit when it's packaged in ornamental leaf gold.

The RCC figured it out centuries before Faux "News".

Individual Catholics I judge on a case-by-case basis.

The institution of Catholicism, however, is a joke. I don't take them seriously or care to entertain their opinions.

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition! Hid did both!

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/21/international/worldspecial2/21germany…

Scrabcake (#50):

Actually, in Ancient Egypt, the new Kingdom was the peak of Egyptian influence. Egypt pretty much controlled the land between Sudan in the south to western Iraq in the east.

That's what I was gonna say.

Ah the sweet smell of hypocrisy...

dubiquiabs | September 15, 2008 3:06 PM | #51

Like with much of today's media frills, the glitz detracts from the content. It's so much easier to feed the distracted believers doctrinal bullshit when it's packaged in ornamental leaf gold.

So true.

A fun travel tip. If you go to mormon central in Utah you see a huge statue of Joseph Smith standing on a column. He has his back to the church, and is beckoning towards the bank. Isn't that cute!

I just never get tired about reading about the stupidity of religion. And just to show that idiocy crosses all barriers, here is an account of a religious sect that believes all its memebers are actually Moroccan citizens. No really. Unfortunately, they also don't like doctors and let their children starve:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080915.wmissing15/…

This is in Toronto. In 2008.

I found it even more disturbing that he demanded a re-thinking of the separation of church and state and repeated the common misunderstanding that today's democratic and humanistic values are based on Christian believe.

All those years these hypocrites were busy justifying absolutism with divine hierarchy and as they saw the writings on the wall after the various revolutions in Europe and the enlightenment, they were eager to find a post-hoc Christian justification for the very things they were fighting so hard.

If the church still is around in +100 years, they will also have found a Bible-compatible justification for contraception and stem cell research, just as nowadays it's no more a sin for women to receive anaesthetics during childbirth.

Unfortunately, they also don't like doctors and let their children starve

Or... perhaps... fortunately?

Yow. I have difficulty imagining standing in a place like that, let alone living in it. Power, possessions and money are bad? Metaphors involving pots and kettles come to mind....

Whoa, big fella. Treat yourself to actually listening to what he is saying:

"The answer they have secretly always been asking for"

Greed is a modern-day problem? It goes back to the caveman who had more rocks than the other caveman.

The gold from Central and South America was not stolen. The good catholics from Spain merely removed it to protect the original owners from temptation.

Lluraa: Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

OT but close: The catholic church here in America has gone out of its way to tell people not to vote for pro-life candidates, but they never say anything about the wrongness of not voting for a candidate because of his race. Racism is rampant in the churches but no one ever speaks against it.

When Benedict sells all his worldly possessions and goes about in a humble sack cloth, begging for a place to eat/sleep, people might take him more seriously....except that he'd still be a freeloading bum who mumbles to himself and his imaginary friend and has crazy ideas in his head. ;-)

So probably not. It's good to be the King (of Kings)'s (Vicar). Ka-ching!

Wasn't the ostentatious wealth of the Vatican what part of what got Martin Luther (and other future German Protestants) all riled up to begin with?

Anyhow, yeah, the Pope of unmitigated greed is Ayn Rand, not Benedict, who is just a hypocrite.

But PZ, you're missing the point - all the church's opulence is there to honour Jesus. Because, you know, he felt so strongly about material possessions. And it's not like his dad is the all-powerful creator of the universe and could, I don't know, shit gold nuggets if he felt the urge.

Maybe I can get hold of one to buy myself a new hypocrisy meter - the old one blew when this story hit the screen.

Seems fair. Like God giving commandments he does not follow (don't kill, don't steal, don't commit adultery, don't lie), of course the church is going to tell the masses how bad greed is. I mean when you have priests walking through the starving masses encrusted in expensive jewellery, it's not wrong. They have the word of God to spread so it's not hypocritical.

Also included in that declaration from the Pope: Non-Popes wearing hats that are too pointy.
and: Non-Swiss Guards wearing clothes that are too silly.

Yeah, I seem to recall Jesus was supposedly reeeeal fond of the church as a place of business and wealth. Got a little exuberant in his celebration, might've knocked over a table or two... yeah, that's the ticket....

I had to LOL at this, too. Papist hypocrisy really knows no bounds, does it? And Reichsmarshall Ratzinger says this on the eve of his visit to frickin Lourdes - the very convergence and embodiment of both idolatry and the lust for money!

Expanded here: http://generalsystemsvehicle.blogspot.com/2008/09/seriously-ratzinger-s…

Slightly off topic but if anyone hasn't seen
the "Priest Off" video on YouTube, you ought
to check it out.

Ratzinger's ramblings would be funnier if millions of people didn't still buy that sort of snake oil.

So there was the 1968 film The Shoes of the Fisherman, with Anthony Quinn as a fictional Ukrainian Archbishop (and former Soviet gulag inmate) who is elected Pope in the early 80s while the Cold War still rages (it was actually kind of prophetic, since it predicted a few things about John Paul II's election 10 years later--an East European Pope who involves himself in the Cold War and has friendly relations with Jews).

The crisis of the film is a severe food shortage in China, which threatens to heat up the Cold War. The Pope ends the crisis by...liquidating half the Church's assets to assuage the famine in China, despite initial opposition from the College of Cardinals.

Yeah, I said it was a work of fiction.

Has the pope condemned irony or hypocrisy yet?

Ugh, the Pope. What a jackass. His flashy clothes make me want to slap him.

The emperor of the largest money-generating, tax-dodging empire in history dares to berate power, possessions and money?

Ratzy-boy, look in the fucking mirror.

It just occurred to me... maybe the Pope doesn't reflect in a mirror. i've heard that vampires don't...

People have mentioned this, but: pagan? Was he talking about some Hindu politician? Because I can't think of any neopagans who've had a chance to show this passion for power.

PZ, this is the funniest post I've seen in a while. The pic was timed perfectly!

"I am an atheist, and if an atheist and a pope think the same things, there must be something true. It's that simple! There must be some human truth here that is beyond religion," said the late Oriana Fallaci -- the renowned Italian journalist indicted in her native country for vilifying, as the law says, a "religion admitted by the state," in this case Islam . . .

When an atheist and a pope think the same things

It's amazing that this enormously wealthy, powerful, pedofile-protecting former nazi has the stones to claim the moral high ground on anything.
How stupid do people have to be to not see him for what he really is?

I suggest they donate the Vatican to a 3rd World country. Oh, wait ...

** grand, awesome, expensive, extravagant, constructs **

• even for an ardent anti-supernaturalist, it's a must see

The Vatican doesn't get much money from me. Admission fees to its art collections -- also Michelangelo and Rafael did a little interior decorating there too. Souvenirs bought from the always sweet-mannered nuns in a shop on the roof -- directly behind the famous statues over the portico. Restrooms nearby. Also on the roof. A pilgrim is always looking for a loo.

St. Peter's basilica was designed for theater. Spectaculars. And, of course, for the faithful it's a holy site and the center of Christ's Church on Earth. When in Rome, visit. You will be impressed, especially if you climb to the tippy-top lantern for a view of the City and the World.

• there's no god? well, what about a god-particle?

I'll never get to visit those man-made grottoes beneath the fields of France and Switzerland. But, I believe that there is a CERN. And CERN begat LHC. The Large Hadron Collider -- more than 20 years abuilding and perhaps €6.4 billion to construct, including cost overruns. ("The poor you have with you always" -- Jesus. And they don't always come first.)

LHC is the latest instrument for a "hunting of the Snark." True believers in the ultimate simplicity of Nature and Nature's Laws seek an elusive, perhaps non-existent, certainly evanescent entity. "The Snark was a Boojum, you see?"

Well, not exactly. The Snark should be a Boson, you know. A Higgs Boson. Known irreverently as the "god particle." Something omnipresent yet conspicuously absent. Something to be sought with "pitchforks and Hope." Something which *must* be because Higgs demonstrated that it must. If this sounds a little like the ontological argument for God, don't be surprised.

Whatever the outcome of the grand hunt, the sheer beauty and fearful symmetry of its construction must rank HLC among the world's great architectural masterpieces.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/03/god-particle/achenbach-text/

bipolar2 ©2008

I can't tell you how glad I am to see you cover this. I heard a news story on Ratzinger's remarks on the radio and almost drove off the road I was laughing so hard. My first thought was "I sure hope PZ gets a hold of this." You have to wonder if Ratz can really be that delusional - I only wish the mainstream media hadn't played the story with such a straight face.

When I grew up in the Netherlands in a small town called Oudenbosch. There we have a scale version of the St. Peter, called the St. Agatha en Barbara church. The inside looks just as lavished as the original.

Are they Really serving for the society or poor??? or just enjoying the leisurily life in the name of god... Not only this happens in Catholic organisations.. but also in many many church organisations around the world!! Ashame of these people!

damn pope benedict is an asshat so glad I don t worship anything...

Any one love ancient history. I am looking forward to visit Egypt, there is great information about ancient Egyptian monuments at http://famoussites.blogspot.com