Long-winded geek

An 11-part epic presentation!

... maybe later.

The person doing the intro was absolutely terrible. He went on for three minutes, had no poise, and managed to make a fascinating story boring! Please, PZ, can you find a way to get better intros? Then I tried to watch your portion and was unable to hear you. I guess I'll have to come to Philadelphia.

Awesome. We need more of your work on video.

More non-reverb work that is.

It would be nice if someone made arrangements to do an official recording. It's not hard, really. 1 camera to record a direct feed from the computer and mic the stage, and another camera to record the speaker and (here's the important part), a direct feed from the mic.

Just a few hours with some video editing software, and presto voila! A nice video to be shared forever.

If you give this talk regularly, chances are that some enlightened university media dept. will manage to do a good job of capturing it. I hope so.

I was unable to really hear the person doing the intros or you. I am disappointed as I look forward to hearing what you have to say about this important topic.

A simple audio without the echo would be sufficient.

I was unable to really hear the person doing the intros or you. I am disappointed as I look forward to hearing what you have to say about this important topic.

I only found one part, but I'm using a screen reader. Do you have to sign up with YouTube to get the rest of the speech?

I could make out most of it with my good headphones. Painfully.

As am I looking forward to you answering a few questions.

About magic 'temple garments?'

(dum dum dum dum dum)

Richard,

Can you get the other parts from here?

and I went on way too long.

Ah, but don't we all, in the end, go on way too long?

Mmmmyep. (nods knowingly)

Rev.BigDumb, I am a Mormon I wear mormon underwear as part of my religions observance. It helps me to pray and to try to be a better person.
I'll tell you what, I won't do the boxer vs briefs thing with you, and I would ask you not to do the "magic" underwear thing with me. Deal?
There is ample information on the net for those who want a more detailed information about our underwear. There is also info about other religions and their particular articles of dress.

Will you be covering this subject matter in your talk at the AAI next week? I couldn't understand what was being said in this video presentation.

Rev.BigDumb, I am a Mormon I wear mormon underwear as part of my religions observance. It helps me to pray and to try to be a better person.
I'll tell you what, I won't do the boxer vs briefs thing with you, and I would ask you not to do the "magic" underwear thing with me. Deal?
There is ample information on the net for those who want a more detailed information about our underwear. There is also info about other religions and their particular articles of dress.

Well the question, which I've repeated many times, was about Native Americans being descendants of the Israelites. I don't think I asked you about the magic underwear too much if at all.

Oh and I don't wear any unless I have to. Then it's boxers.

Lluraa said:

" I am a Mormon I wear mormon underwear as part of my religions observance. It helps me to pray and to try to be a better person.
I'll tell you what, I won't do the boxer vs briefs thing with you, and I would ask you not to do the "magic" underwear thing with me."

If I had magic underwear I would be understandably proud. Are you just being modest?

You can take my magic underwear, but you'll have to wrest my 'e-meter' from my cold, dead arse.

I could hear Dude's rambling introduction for 'Mr. Myers' okay, but PZ is pretty inaudible. Should I just fast-forward to the shouting? How far in is the red lightning?

I couldn't get through the first couple of minutes - really echoing and..."hummy" would be the technical term, I think.

Now I really wish I had felt well enough to go. I was busy hacking up my lungs the day before, unfortunately.

#11 - ennui - Thanks for the link to the Mormon cartoon. What a crock!

In reality prayer, in essence, is the mind attempting to focus on a problem or subject, or, as a periodic exercise it is simply a ritual that is performed. Christians make a distinction between lies and deception, with lies being bad and deception being good or neutral, that is, deceive all you want but, don't lie. As we have seen with the Bush regime, deception can be used much more effectively and destructively than lies. Also, if you are particularly good at deception (as christians have shown), lies can be turned into misunderstandings and deception at any time. Christian tools are not designed to minimize deception but, are rather designed to enhance deception. Contrast with scientific tools which are specifically designed to minimize deception.

Wearing magic underwear is not an indicator of morality or ethics, no matter how badly morons would like to believe otherwise.

Suck it, moroni!

I wear mormon underwear as part of my religions observance. It helps me to pray and to try to be a better person.

If you believe that particular underwear help you to be a better person, you're as bugfuck crazy as a rat in a tin shithouse.

If you believe that particular underwear help you to be a better person, you're as bugfuck crazy as a rat in a tin shithouse.

See it's funny because the undergarments my wife wears makes me want to be bad...

too much?

"Well the question, which I've repeated many times, was about Native Americans being descendants of the Israelites."

Have you written that term paper for Mrs. Llamaa yet? You're just gonna wait until the last night again, aren't you?

Have you written that term paper for Mrs. Llamaa yet? You're just gonna wait until the last night again, aren't you?

Yes. Old habits never die, they just get easier.

Always worked for me in college I see no reason to stop now.

Though I suspect Lllueareraratarda is avoiding the question. Not sure why really, but I just have this feeling.

I don't understand how underoos can help a person pray. Do the moron garments have an elaborate elastic system that pulls the body into a position of submission? Surely not but, then in what way does a specific brand of underoos aid the mythical prayer process?

If you believe that particular underwear help you to be a better person, you're as bugfuck crazy as a rat in a tin shithouse.

Emmett thank you for your very kind and gracious statement, the underwear in and of itself is only a garment that has the use of any underwear that many of us wear. There are signs and symbols on Mormon that remind us of certain truths of our faith. In a way it is like a uniform with the insignia of the team on it. It allows me center on my faith and gives me, in a way, a connection to my family of faith. It reminds me that I should be the best person I can be.
Other persons of other religious convictions wear other types of clothing or jewlery for similar purposes. A star of David or a yamakule helps a Jewsish person to identify and live as a Jew. A cross or medal may help a Christian to identify and live as a Christian. A monk or a nun of either the East like Buddists or Chritian tradition of the West wars a habit to identify them and live in their chosen vocation.
I hope this explaination helps satify your curiosity, if it doesn't, to use your language, you can go fuck yourself.

I am not avoiding your question about Mormons, DNA, and the American Indians. I think that as a serious scientist and reasearcher you would do best to go to official websites and books to get a true explaination of the teaching of the fatih.
I can answer with my opinion that some of the Book of Mormon, like some parts of the Bible ought not to be taken literally but rather tell a story with a much greater truth behind it. However there are those, mostly fundementalists who would say that the Book of MOrmon should be taken literally and that the tribe to which it refers no longer exists. Again you can get a better explaination from theological writtings than I can give.

some of the Book of Mormon, like some parts of the Bible ought not to be taken literally but rather tell a story with a much greater truth behind it.

Ah, nice, that old chestnut!

The fundies might be crazy, but at least they're logically consistent.

I came to this thread to tell PZ that I was disappointed that the speech he made was not clear, as I was looking forward to hearing it. I am gratefull that he has posted it somewhere else. Thank you PZ. I want to learn as much as I can from those with whom I agree and from those with whom I don't agree. By doing this I can grow and come to a better understanding of the tention between science and religion.

I can answer with my opinion that some of the Book of Mormon, like some parts of the Bible ought not to be taken literally but rather tell a story with a much greater truth behind it.

Ok what is the lesson, truth and the significance you get out of that part of the story? And if you can so casually decide which parts are not to be taken literally how can you trust any of it?

Religion a la carte is very intellectually inconsistent.

I just DLd the whole set, will watch late tonight when the rest of my family (who I'm visiting, and who don't know - or don't want to know - I'm really a born-again agnostic) have all gone beddy-bye.......

Trying to listen to you talk, PZ, literally brought me to tears because of frustration. I finally had to give up. I am sorry but this vido/sound is really, really horrible (as has been noted).

I enjoy hearing you speak. Your voice is so calm and relaxing, and your thoughts are collected and well thought out.

This particular video/sound, however, is disappointing. Does anyone have a transcript? (LOL)

I'm sure it was a great talk, but I'm sorry I had to give up virtually straight away - the poor quality of the sound was just too much.

I want to learn as much as I can from those with whom I agree and from those with whom I don't agree. By doing this I can grow and come to a better understanding of the tention between science and religion.

Lluraa--Magic clothing aside, if you truly want to understand the tension between religion and science, you've come to a good place. Both religion (dogmatically) and science (provisionally) make truth claims regarding the world we share, through very different mindsets and processes.

IMO, it is much more important to understand these mindsets and processes, as well as the reasons behind them, than it is to know all of the specific truth claims. So the question to first ask yourself is 'why do I believe what I believe,' and go from there.

It may not seem so, but many people on this site want to assist you. To help us, tell us some of the things that you believe about your Mormonism, and how you came to believe them. This will get the ball rolling in a more productive vein, and we can get away from snarky comments about magic underwear.

I would like a clear statement from the mormon, regarding which parts of the book for mormons should not be taken seriously and, the "greater truth" that should be substituted in place of those parts. If you wouldn't mind doing the same regarding the bible too, it would be much appreciated.

But still, why wouldn't your god-idea go with the "greater truth" thing to begin with, instead of opting for the confusing stories? Those god-idea creatures are nothing if not damnably deceptive. Is it really surprising that the whole loony load would drive the mythical Lucifer insane?

I downloaded all the parts and queued them up on my tv, but regrettably I, like others, couldn't make it past 7 minutes. I really only understood at best around 50% of the words.

PZ, please do let us know if another recording of the talk gets posted.

The audio is a little better if you click the "watch in high quality" link on the video.

@Hans #12 - Is this your video? If you (or whoever has it) can get me the audio track I might be able to use some tricks and get something at least intelligible out of it.. can't do anything about the echo, of course, just filtering and noise reduction tricks.

#36, Ennui - I am with you here. This is a personal journey. It is amazing Lluraa is willing to even look at this site, muchless post on it, given her beliefs. I cannot get any of my christian friends to even read excellent articles on science. They think its evil. I don't know what the answer is here. Somehow people get around to finding out this answer for themselves. It takes a good bit of desire and inquisitiveness, as well as strength. Anger plays a part too. As a long-time Christian gone through the hoops, it is just simply amazing finally getting to this place in life where you can finally look on the world with absolute awe and amazement, putting the imaginary in context with what you once knew about Santa. Not to mention belief in magic underwear.

I can answer with my opinion that some of the Book of Mormon, like some parts of the Bible ought not to be taken literally but rather tell a story with a much greater truth behind it.

So you're saying, Lluraa, that these, and specifically #8, don't apply to you? Or does "word of god" not necessarily mean the truth?

Also, what's the fucking point of "modern day revelation" supposed to be if it's just as metaphorical, ineffable, and flat-out ambiguous as all the old crap?

What I am saying pcarini, is that the fucking point of "modern day revelation" The Bible is that it doesn't tell us how the heavens go, it tells us how to go to heaven.

The Bible is that it doesn't tell us how the heavens go, it tells us how to go to heaven.

Yep, worship the sky-daddy or be subjected to eternal torture. I love the peaceful and tolerant message of modern-day christiany.

The Bible is that it doesn't tell us how the heavens go, it tells us how to go to heaven

Even Leviticus? Revelations?

The Bible is that it doesn't tell us how the heavens go, it tells us how to go to heaven

Literally or metaphorically? If it's not either/or, which bits are meant to be literal?

I am guessing that the audio sounded 'verby because it was being taken from the mic on the camera. Also, to be fair, you need to actually speak into the mic, PZ. ;)

I was pretty irritated with the lighting job as well. The screen should have been shaded so that it would have been more visable.

Instead of "backseat driving" production quality, I offer my skills (I have a Associates in video production) to the group that ends up shooting (lighting, etc.) PZ's next visit to Denver.

waiting for a sound engineer to evolve?

Pacrini, my beleif is that the Bible message needs to be taken as a whole, that there is a Loving Force that created everything from nothing,and, if there is an evolutionary process God started it. yeah a sky-daddy, and that we are to treat one another as sisters and brothers.
That is what I beleive, and I am here to learn more about what others, particularly those who claim to be atheists beleive or don't beleive.
So don't get your non magical underwear in a twist kid.

Answer my question please Lluara.

Rev.BigDumbChip, I thought I did answer your question when I said that there may be lost tribes with different DNA. That is one possible suggestion, and the theroy I hold on to.
Might I be using "blind" fatih? Perhaps. But you know what?
It works for me, for now.

Well actually Lluraa you said this first

I can answer with my opinion that some of the Book of Mormon, like some parts of the Bible ought not to be taken literally but rather tell a story with a much greater truth behind it.

And I asked this next

Ok what is the lesson, truth and the significance you get out of that part of the story? And if you can so casually decide which parts are not to be taken literally how can you trust any of it?

So which is it? Do you take that literally and then make use of the churches recently made up explanation of lost tribes or changed DNA or do you take the story as metaphor?

Don't you find it disturbingly convenient that the church can change its doctrine to when new discoveries pretty much rule out what they've been saying for decades? Almost like they're just making it up as they go along.

Seems pretty fitting for a church founded by the likes of Joseph Smith don't you think?

So Lluraa, taking what you said that I quoted above, how do you decide which parts of the Book of Mormon or the Bible are to be taken literally and which are to be taken allegorically?

So Lluraa, taking what you said that I quoted above, how do you decide which parts of the Book of Mormon or the Bible are to be taken literally and which are to be taken allegorically?

I rely on the theologians of my faith community to help me understand which books are to be taken literally and which are to be taken allegorically. Just as I go to a doctor to help me to know which anti biotic to take for a specific illness I go to the theolgians to help me with God, "sky-daddy" questions.

that there is a Loving Force that created everything from nothing

Does this loving force condemn anyone to hell simply for committing a thought-crime? Does it give infinite reward for grovelling?

I rely on the theologians of my faith community to help me understand which books are to be taken literally and which are to be taken allegorically.

So are you saying that the Theologians don't believe their book either?

How do they know?

Don't you find it disturbingly convenient that the church can change its doctrine to when new discoveries pretty much rule out what they've been saying for decades? Almost like they're just making it up as they go along.

Seems pretty fitting for a church founded by the likes of Joseph Smith don't you think?

I noticed you skipped this part.

Just as I go to a doctor to help me to know which anti biotic to take for a specific illness I go to the theolgians to help me with God, "sky-daddy" questions. - Llllluuuurrrraaaa

The doctor's opinion is based on empirical, checkable research. The theologians' opinions are based on... well, the theologians' opinions. Which is why you get a reasonable degree of agreement about antibiotics among doctors, and sheaves of mutually contradictory opinions among theologians. See the difference?

LLura #51 wrote:

Might I be using "blind" fatih? Perhaps. But you know what? It works for me, for now.

When it gets right down to it, most people who believe in God don't really believe in God. What I mean is, whether God exists or not isn't an important issue for them. If it was, then they'd very seriously consider God as a hypothesis, pick the idea apart, and be willing and (more significantly) be able to reject it if there are better, more consistent explanations for the evidence which the concept was invented to explain.

Instead, the more critical motivation is to find a community and personal myth they can use to guide their lives. Belief in God "works." It's a tool. In your case, Mormonism "works." Even if the entire thing was invented from the fevered imagination of a 19th century con artist, so what? You still get out of it whatever you put into it.

If some other religion makes you feel better, or gives you stronger support, or even has friendlier people in it, you can renounce Jesus Christ and take up with that one.

Religion isn't true. God isn't true. Not in the sense where truth or accuracy actually matters. Instead, it's all about being "truthy" -- having that quality of being wanted to be true. And then talk yourself into thinking that this desire is some deep, wonderful moral strength coming through, signifying humility and loyalty -- instead of natural human weakness and abdication of intellectual responsibility, a giving in to self.

But hey, if it's "working," why fix it, right?

But hey, if it's "working," why fix it, right?

It all depends on how one defines working I guess.

"Hey, It's deluded me enough that I don't care about all of the inconsistencies, falsehoods and contradictions so why try and figure it out, right"

Did Joseph Smith the angel Moroni write the metaphorical bits in Comic Sans instead of Times Roman, maybe?

[I have previously posted with the screen name "Doug" as there is at least one other, I have elected to change mine.]

Lluraa,

As to your statement regarding the difference between science and religion. It is very simple; science is based on evidence, religion is based on the lack thereof. Religion seeks to maximize belief based on faith, science seeks to minimize belief based on faith.

From reading your comments it appears that you feel you are being treated harshly, so maybe this will help you to understand.

- The door to door mormon salespeople. Would you like pornography peddlers coming to your house? Would it enrage you if they did? I would like you to somehow understand how awful it is to have a mormon fantasy peddler show up at your door. It is your fantasy I expect you to at a minimum, strongly speak out against those that are trying to push it on others at their own doorsteps mind you!

- The intertwining of government and religion. You may not have thought it through but, I assure you, that relationship is as bad for you and your fantasy as it is for me. I expect you to be responsible regarding your fantasy and work against any efforts to intertwine religion and government.

- The war in Iraq (stupid, stupid, stupid). It is like going through a buffet and when your plate is completely full, heaping a full pig on top. I expect you to do everything you can to ensure that religion has no part in future military action.

- Little Bush. A major mistake in every way. I certainly hope that you, as a responsible fantasizer, are not planning on repeating that mistake in the next election.

- Religious involvement in public schools. It simply isn't the right thing to do. As one example; the core of science is questioning and providing evidence. Fantasy based thoughts have no place in science. Keep your fantasy out of formal public school functions and speak out against others that attempt to include religion in public education.

- Religious messages on US currency. As the United States is not a theocracy and there is no religious test for citizenship, it is wrong to have religious messages on our currency. If you are an honest and responsible person you will act to remove the messages.

If you will do those things and allow your children to choose to believe your religion or not, you will find me (and I think other atheists) to be a big supporter of your right to believe what you want as long as you don't force it on others.

For me personally, even if your god-idea were actually true and standing here, I would still reject its philosophy based on eternal torture alone, even if it was offering me the finest seat in its house. I will add that there are several other reason why I personally would not live with your mormon god-idea. How you can accept such a hate filled god-idea, I will never understand.

"If some other religion makes you feel better, or gives you stronger support, or even has friendlier people in it, you can renounce Jesus Christ and take up with that one."

I went through a bit of a crisis of non-faith in college, and what tipped me over into full-on atheism was hearing this sort of statement from one of the more well-spoken, yet fairly liberal, apologists. I thought, "Well, if it's all just a matter of personal preference, and it really doesn't matter if all of it's actually true or not, then I'll just cut through the clutter and take atheism, thank you."

Does this loving force condemn anyone to hell simply for committing a thought-crime? Does it give infinite reward for grovelling?

No I don't think Sky Daddy condemns anyone to hell, no but I believe we condemn ourselves when we act in a way that may significantly hurt others.
As far as hell is concerned, I don't beleive that it is a place of fire and brimstone and a lot of little devils in a holloween type costum. No I believe it is a state of being that is aleinated (spelling) from Sky Daddy.
I dont beleive that Sky Daddy wants us to grovel but rather to be the best desendent of the apes, the best humans we can be.

I dont believe that GSM wants us to grovel but rather to be the best descendents of the apes concestors , and the best humans we can be.

Some minor adjustments and one major one.

I dont beleive that Sky Daddy wants us to grovel but rather to be the best desendent of the apes, the best humans we can be.

Ought we to enquire into the truth of this, Lluraa, or simply to accept the mere statement on our own authority and that of others? What do you say?

Llaauurraa--You can believe all day and night long that you are destined for the Celestial Kingdom, and that I'll end up in the Outer Darkness. The question I have for you is: What if you're wrong? How would you know?

If you were serious about finding out, you would want a rigorous process that compensated for your confirmation bias. Scientific method is the best process that we have for this purpose.

Would you be willing to follow the evidence wherever it leads, or are you too comfortable or scared? Or isn't it possible that you're wrong?

No I don't think Sky Daddy condemns anyone to hell, no but I believe we condemn ourselves when we act in a way that may significantly hurt others.
As far as hell is concerned, I don't beleive that it is a place of fire and brimstone and a lot of little devils in a holloween type costum. No I believe it is a state of being that is aleinated (spelling) from Sky Daddy.
I dont beleive that Sky Daddy wants us to grovel but rather to be the best desendent of the apes, the best humans we can be.

While I think this sentiment is important in modern Christianity, I'll play devil's advocate and ask if there is biblical reference for this view?

LLuaraa @ #49:

Pacrini, my beleif is that the Bible message needs to be taken as a whole, ...

As a literal or figurative whole?

... I am here to learn more about what others, particularly those who claim to be atheists beleive or don't beleive.

Atheism is one's take on a single issue, and thus a rather shallow means of trying to understand somebody.

I rely on the theologians of my faith community to help me understand which books are to be taken literally and which are to be taken allegorically.

Obviously the theologians of your faith community don't fully toe the Mormon line, at least if they don't claim that the Book of Mormon is 100% literal truth. I find this interesting on its own, since the official Mormon church is quite homogeneous in its beliefs. Do you belong to some splinter group? (no offense meant by that term)

I was disappointed to discover that I could understand very little of what you said, PZ, since the sound quality was so poor.

I probably would have watched and listened to the whole thing, if I could have understood it. But, since I could not, I did not. :(