Good ol' UK-based Nature has a special section dedicated to the US election. I'm not surprised — the whole world has a stake in this one, and I sure hope we don't disappoint them, for our sake and theirs. Both presidential candidates were asked their opinion on various issues of science policy, and the answers are publicly available, in two parts. Unsurprisingly, only Obama bothered to reply; in an attempt to be fair, Nature dug through McCain's old speeches to charitably cobble up the kind of answers he might have given if a) he weren't an incompetent old coot who can't get his act together, b) he actually cared what the universe outside the right-wing electorate thought, and c) he wasn't going to heedlessly gut science as quickly as possible if given the opportunity.
If only they'd gotten Sarah Palin to submit something…but since Nature is not Punch, they probably thought that throwing a comedy routine into a prestigious science journal would be inappropriate.
I did like this short, sweet answer:
Do you believe that evolution by means of natural selection is a sufficient explanation for the variety and complexity of life on Earth? Should intelligent design, or some derivative thereof, be taught in science class in public schools?
Obama: I believe in evolution, and I support the strong consensus of the scientific community that evolution is scientifically validated. I do not believe it is helpful to our students to cloud discussions of science with non-scientific theories like intelligent design that are not subject to experimental scrutiny.
(Before you jump on him about using the word "believe", read this.)
I also thought this one was very good. Science is an international enterprise, but it would be selfishly nice if my country did more to recruit and support it.
Would it make sense for more overseas students who receive PhDs at American universities to stay in the country and contribute to its research base and its wealth? What immigration reforms would you support?
Obama: I believe that we must enact comprehensive immigration reform to restore our economic strength, relieve local governments of unfair burdens stemming from an inefficient federal immigration system, ensure that our country and borders remain secure and allow a path to citizenship for the 12 million undocumented immigrants who are willing to pay a fine, pay taxes, and learn English. A critical part of comprehensive immigration reform is turning back misguided policies that since 9/11 have turned away the world's best and brightest from America. As president, I will improve our legal permanent resident visa programmes and temporary programmes to attract some of the world's most talented people to America.
My enthusiasm is not unreserved, but I know exactly who I'll be voting for in November.
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Quote for the day, from Phyllis Schlafly:
"The China infant milk scandal, even though it has so far not damaged any American babies, has exposed a major defect in the concept of free trade. It's dangerous to buy products from a nation whose economy is not based on Judeo-Christian morality. "
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28673&page=1&viewID=481384
PZ with be voting for the same person I will be voting against. "Belief" in evolution is one of the very few things that BHO and I agree on. Its not enough by a long shot
It seems like it would be no contest? I'm sure McCain's responses would be similar to Special Dougie's, except less thought out.
"The whole world has a stake"...
Too right. I think we should all get a vote too. The U.S. Elections affect just about everybody on the planet, so it seems only fair to me that we should all have a say in it.
Sarah Palin doesn't submit her opinions on science because she is both extremely modest and scientifically gifted, let me explain. She knows without a doubt that her vast knowledge in all fields of science exceeds that of the lay person and even top scientists even in their own fields of expertise. Realizing her superiority might make others envious, she has chosen not to hurt our feelings by showcasing her immense knowledge of science in any sort of oral or written form. Please, P.Z. don't blame her for trying to make us all a little less envious. She is model citizen and scientific role model I would endorse any day of god's creation period the week.
I thought both candidates answered. If not those questions, then they both certainly answered these: ScienceDebate2008
The reason the Palin campaign won't release her medical records is she has been hospitalized in a phych ward for suicidal behavior.
The problem is that most Americans are woefully ignorant of the science we are asking the candidates about. To compound that problem most of them are not in the habit of asking any questions at all. I have people here in KS parotting Rush Limbaugh's lines about Obama being Muslim. Its just too depressing.
The problem is that most Americans are woefully ignorant of the science we are asking the candidates about.
Aye, there lies the rub.
There are about 5 million Irish so its fair to say that if everyone got a vote in the American presidential elections we would still have little effect.
That said the elections and all the run up to them are intoxicating. Maybe it is the sheer power being handed to the victor or the way America is not only riven by so many debates that resonate the world over (RIAA and piracy, evolution, stem cell research, migration, global warming) but also seems to find every extreme view and broadcast them so loudly.
It would be a wonderful relief if someone who was not a fundamentalist was in the white house and willing to try and reduce the influence the creationist /I.D. lobby have on U.S. policy. Ireland follows the U.S. in so many ways it adds worry to the despair that results from every I.D. victory.
SoMG @ #1:
Would that be one of the fundamentals of our economy?
Too right. I think we should all get a vote too. The U.S. Elections affect just about everybody on the planet, so it seems only fair to me that we should all have a say in it.
The US constitution is interpreted as only allowing US citizens to vote. There is no exception for "euro trash" or even for someone who managed to wander across our sothern border.
Now if BHO is elected, who knows, maybe voting will be Chicago democrat style, where everyone gets to vote as much as they like, and even the dead are not excluded.
You can have mine.
The reason the Palin campaign won't release her medical records is she has been hospitalized in a phych ward for suicidal behavior.
Ok SoMG, its time for your Geodon.
SoMG wrote:
Wha???!
Can you back that claim up with any evidence? If you can you've got information that is akin to what cost Thomas Eagleton his VP slot:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070311/news_1j11eagleton.html
Eric, you're an absolute moron.
Just want to make that clear, in case you weren't already aware, given that you are, in fact, a moron.
Eric was replying to SoMG.
Sure, because Democrats stole the last two Presidential elections, and election fraud by Republicans is inconceivable.
Ignoramus.
@ #1, thank you for that. I laughed so much I almost shot my Chinese milk out of my nose.
I didn't really realize that it was possible for a politician to be anti-science, but I guess that's what Republicans, generally speaking, are.
And perhaps Ichthyic was replying to Eric's comments #2 and #12, in which he is, unarguably, a moron.
Too right. I think we should all get a vote too. The U.S. Elections affect just about everybody on the planet, so it seems only fair to me that we should all have a say in it.
Um, no.
Eric, you're an absolute moron
And you intend to dispute what I said by calling me names?
Go back to the DU.
So there is more than one moron in the mix.
... and then there's this,
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/thebigblog/archives/149519.asp
I used to live in that town. Trust me when I say there is something very wrong with that particular batch of christian college kids.
I stand corrected. I only saw the one responding to SoMG without quoting so it looked like he said it.
"What's all this about the deaf penalty? ... Nevermind"
Eric, you're an absolute moron
And you intend to dispute what I said by calling me names?
Go back to the DU.
@Kevin
It doesn't matter how many people in Ireland would vote--it only matters how many electoral college votes Ireland has, and if it is a swing nation. Too few, or too predictable, and you'd have no more impact than you do now.
Anyway, traditionally, adding Ireland would mean we'd have to add someone else to balance the system.
I vote we sign up Finland, too.
Steve "Although I hear Scotland is looking for a new home" James
someone who managed to wander across our sothern border.
Wander? So it's a sort of a Brownian motion, eh?
[rimshot]
Hey-yo!
Oh, I'm bad. :)
Maybe if you post it 5 or 6 times it will start making sense.
Perhaps we have morons in the thread, but in any case, Obama actually answering these questions is somewhat indicative of his support for science. McCain's lack of a response is all the more telling.
McCain doesnt bother with science.All he wants is to get into the White House somehow,so he can invade Iran.
I think Obama is ok,and a lot of his statements on religion were made out of necessity given the political and religious climate in the US.
Sorry for the triple post. What do you expect from a moron?
clinteas: I surely hope you are correct in this, it seems he's trying to soften his image for the religious in this country a bit too much for my taste though. Needless to say, I'm still voting for him...
hehe, I had a friend suggest once that all those americans who don't bother voting should sell their votes on e-bay to foreigners. I'd soo buy one of those. :-p
I am deeply pissed that, like 95% of the world's population I can't vote in the US election, but I get to live with the consequences. The Obama/McCain outcome will probably have just as much impact on my country as will our own election currently under way (especially as Harper seems to like kissing up to American neo-cons. Bastard.)
Quiet_Desperation @ 29:
Scientific, clever, and epidermachromatic. I like it!
John McCain is a gutless coward who's trying to chicken out of the debates. Pass it on.
#1 I wondered why that milk tasted funny until I realized it was missing a dash of Jesus.
Make me an offer.
I find it disappointing that Nature chose to quote him but change the spelling in his quotes (I'm sure Obama didn't write "programme"). Changing someone's spelling when quoting them is a no-no in composition; I would have expected better of a journal like Nature.
Obama does not seem to be as liberal as I hoped, but he's far superior to McCain/Palin. And is it just me, or do the fundies for McCain sound like folks who use sheets inappropriately?
What do you expect from a moron?
Behavior and verbiage very close to, if not identical with, your own.
John Brack McBama... more of the same, no matter which of them wins. The differences between these candidates is minimal, and the more you think the differences between them are noteworthy, the more you've been hoodwinked by the state and the media.
The only substantive difference between the two is that McCain wants to continue war in Iraq, while Obama wants to end the Iraq war and start a war in Pakistan.
Why don't we try not having any president or ruler for once? Nothing good ever comes from having a president to force a one-size-fits-all social and economic policy onto everyone.
Quiet_Desperation @29, with this in mind, perhaps we could use the Eric Atkinson effect for an infinite improbability drive...
Or perhaps the POTUS should stop pretending to be the "Leader of the Free World".
What would be great is if those who voted for Obama get him as their representative, and those who vote for McCain get him as their representative, and those who don't vote get to continue representng themselves.
Hmm, Aaron Kinney seems a bit like an anarchist, wouldn't you say? Perhaps the substantive differences could be illustrated to him here:
http://factcheck.org
Giving the world our votes eh? Brilliant! and while where're at it why not let Putin and the ayatollah run for the White House with the premier of china as secretary of state after all of Eurasia votes them in. Now don't get me wrong I'm a liberal and all but there are literlly billions of people on this planet that we do not want imposing there views on our, or anyone's, liberal democracy. Get real.
Quiet_Desperation @29, with this in mind, perhaps we could use the Eric Atkinson effect for an infinite improbability drive...
I think its called "the Heart of Gold project".
But I beleive Zaphod Beeblebrox has one.
A triple post?
What do you mean "has been hospitalized?" You mean they finally let her out?
Sorry, out here in Googitchakoomy, the paperboy uses a dog sled and they are usually a few years late.
Polling shows that while Obama is in the lead, PZ is still 6 points ahead of McCain.
http://car54.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/maybe-an-anonymous-poll-is-better/
Now, there's a poll crying out to be crashed by us.
I was having a good day until SoMG (#1) reminded me that the revolting Phyllis Schafly still infests this planet. Oh to possess as smite button.
If you'll excuse the Fark vernacular: This.
Nature also recently ran an editorial on science and research funding in Canada in the context of the upcoming general election. (Yes, we can has election too!).
Agreed.
Also, as someone brought up vote fraud... Steal back your vote!
@49 Jello
Don't worry about China. It's a red state. But India will balance it out, and each one only gets three electoral votes.
As for Putin, he'd fit right in. And the ayatollah types would all purport to be devout Christians in order to get elected. Just like our politicians.
Still, I don't see why we should complain about other peoples' ideals of democracy being imposed on us. It's what we've been doing to them for quite some time now.
Steve "This way would just involve fewer explosions." James
Eric Atkinson asks #33:
To write, as his first comment in this thread, and without any further explanation, "PZ with be voting for the same person I will be voting against."
As if people are supposed to find this interesting...
#59
Its sure got your panties all in a wad.
We need help in Texas, please crash this poll.....
http://bigcountryhomepage.com/content/fulltext/?cid=43871
No wonder you're a radical libertarian/anarchist: you failed Civics!
The Prez is not anybody's representative; they live up on the Hill.
Small pedant remark, it's not the POTUS who pretends to be the "Leader of the Free World", but the usual brain-dead American media who pretends to make him such.
My guess is with what's happening right now, that stupid habit is going to be kiss my a**.
Fun factiod of the day: You can fund NASA on it's current budget for roughly half a century with 700 billion dollars.
JJ @ 61, it looks pretty bad for you...
I contributed, but it's still looking pretty bad.
Fun factiod of the day: You can fund NASA on it's current budget for roughly half a century with 700 billion dollars.
It would also feed one hell of a lot of hungry poor people. But of course we don' care 'bout dat. They're all just lazy.
Josh, or a bunch of graduates of biology that are searching for employment in the field...
JJ @#61:
Looking at the number of people who have voted for "creation only" I am forcibly reminded of why I left Texas.
The fact that you call Obama by his initials is a good moron indicator too.
When I voted it looked like they only had 76 votes recorded so far. It should be easy to skew with even mild Pharyngulization.
Randy @68, the percentages are a little misleading, the actual numbers are slightly less terrifying.
Evolution only (26, 32.1%)
Evolution, pointing out weaknesses in theory (6, 7.4%)
Evolution and creationism (34, 42%)
Creationism only (15, 18.5%)
I'm still waiting for the debates before my vote is fully decided, but right now McCain has a photon's momentum of chance that I'll vote for him.
@#1
My opinion of Judeo-Christian "morality" is very low after opening a business in a mid-sized southern town dominated by christians. Now when I hear "he/she's a good christian..." in reference to a potential business contact, a big, red flag goes up. Many "good christians" displayed some very questionable behavior when I was working on building and opening my business.
No need to smite her. She and Andrew are festering in their own putrescent ideology of hate, willful ignorance and intolerance. And it just kills her to think that educated white people don't think like her. Every day, a little death - but not the good kind.
The fact that you call Obama by his initials is a good moron indicator too.
I am sorry. I should have said "The messiah"
@58
OK, maybe I was overreacting, I'm a former conservative that went liberal when the conservatives lost there minds, so "F the foreigners" is still hard wired into me. Seriously though, having people of different sovereign nations voting in each other's elections in this day and age is pretty silly. Turn about being fair play would any of the non-US citizen contributors to this blog want Americans voting in their elections? I think not.
Jared @ #71:
It's kind of you to try to cheer me up, but not only am I a "glass half-empty" sort of guy, the fact that 18.5% of any group would would vote "creation only" gives me a goddamned profound ennui right in my esophageal tract.
Obama all the way, baby. Look at those answers: this guy has head head screwed on straight.
I've been saying for years that to win national elections, the Dems need to at least make a good show of bowing to the imaginary man in the sky. Look at the poll numbers: it's essential. So, when you look at Obama's professionas of faith, remember these answers, especially the first one P.Z. listed. (And: shudder at how Palin would answer these; at least McCain said he believed in evolution during the primary debates. Not sure he really knows what it IS; but ...)
BUT, MORE IMPORTANT than the above: the next president will likely be nominating 2 or 3 supreme court justices, even if they only serve one term. I believe that Souter and Stevens have been hangin in there waiting for a more reasonable president to show up. McCain has publicly stated that he would nominate justices in the mold of Scalia and Thomas (this may be posturing for the right wing of the RP; but don't count on it!) This woould be an unmitigated disaster and would set back individual rights, gay rights, women's rights, and just about everything else we care about back 100 years. Roberts, Scalia, Alito, and Thomas are going to be with us for a LONG TIME yet. Bush had the "luck" to name Roberts and Alito. The US can't stand more of this "luck." It's supremely important to prevent this (pun intended.)
Do you care about retaining Roe v. Wade? Keeping creationism out of our schools? Maintaining voting rights for black folk? Maintaining the individual's rights in the face of the continuing tilt towards corporate power consolidation? VOTE OBAMA, BABY.
(If McCain is elected, my wife and I would seriously consider emigration to Canada or France.)
All the best, a stinky-cheese-slurping, wine-swilling, Euro-philic, beer brewing-and-swilling, outdoors-loving, home-grown Minnesota liberal.
Josh, or a bunch of graduates of biology that are searching for employment in the field...
Interesting that you mention that, Jared. The comment I originally wrote and then edited referred to the number of full PhD theses that amount of money could support...
JBlilie: You won't be alone, I'll be off to Sweden, I even have a job secured in biotech research if I do move. That's far better than I'm doing here in the states. Perhaps that's due to better funding and appreciation for the sciences?
It would also feed one hell of a lot of hungry poor people.
Ah, but if you teach them to fish instead of just giving them- ah what's the point... :-\ Is Fallout 3 out yet?
Just by the way, that amusing poll I linked to up at #53 is evidently being crashed by some McCainites.
Josh @79; Yea, I need to pay off debt before I can go to grad school, cost of living+tuition kicked my ass, even working 40 hours/week.
Poor people?! But are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?
In any case, they don't deserve help, because they weren't smart enough to get "too big to fail".
Once again I see PZ falling for the illusion that he is really making a "choice" here.
You're gonna get more of what we've had, it's just the Dems turn to "run things" into the ground.
Our debt ceiling is now being moved up to 11 Trillion, our unfunded liabilities something like 90 trillion...
The policies of unelected officials will still rule America regardless of who sits on top, and they'll be laughing as you pull your voting lever with such determination...
Consider this-- The head of the federal reserve (the unelected agency that held interest rates too low for too long), along with an ex-investment banker (who has made 500 million off the system and will return, no doubt, in four months to scam the system some more) are asking for (some estimate) 2 trillion dollars because they are worried about "the taxpayer".
I don't mind watching the righteous being played, but it unfortunately will affect people I care about too.
Shoveling more power to a broken entity is a definition of insanity not mentioned often enough.
But are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?
Yes indeed. Perhaps they should get on about dying, and decrease the surplus population.
Josh @79; Yea, I need to pay off debt before I can go to grad school, cost of living+tuition kicked my ass, even working 40 hours/week.
Grad school won't be any better, really. I had a full ride and I still racked up a decent amount of credit card debt--the stipends are just about enough to survive on (well, there is beer to buy after all--sheesh people).
I spent ten years an an engineer for a multinational that made enzymes for industrial uses. Novozyme's process of using certain geneticly engineered bacteria to produce enzymes through fernmentation would not even work if the theory of evolution were not a rock solid fact. But the majority of people ther stilled believed in creation nonsense. They were not stupid poeple, they were just afflicted with religion.
I am sorry. I should have said "The messiah" - Eric Atkinson,
You only have to look at a few threads here to see considerable criticism of Obama from people who nevertheless intend to vote for him as the better alternative. You will see little if any unstinted praise. But then, as a fully qualified moron, I suppose it would be beneath your dignity to consider anything as mundane as evidence.
Josh @86 Yea, that's why I'd like to get a job working as an associate in a research facility, many of the ones associated with universities usually have agreements for tuition waivers.
I spent ten years an an engineer for a multinational that made enzymes for industrial uses. Novozyme's process of using certain geneticly engineered bacteria to produce enzymes through fernmentation would not even work if the theory of evolution were not a rock solid fact. But the majority of people there still believed in creation nonsense. They were not stupid poeple, they were just afflicted with religion.
Repost. Too many stupid errors.
I think that is a terrific strategy if you can pull it off.
Josh & Tulse,
Gosh, what memories you stir up. I've done stage versions of that book so many times I could probably do "Scrooge! The One-Man Show". Even though I'm an atheist in good standing and dutifully scoff at ghosts, I've got to say that playing Marley with all the chains and the fog and the pneumatic stage-trap is more fun than a barrel of cro-magnons.
I have friends who give me grief about it, but I very much do enjoy Dickens.
Dear #88.
Most of the criticisms of BHO is that he is politically to the right of Stalin. I am not happy with McCain but at least he is pro american.
Have you noticed how the only ones who call Obama "The messiah", are the right wing pundits ?
I was in France for two weeks four summers ago. Believe me, Europeans are VERY into our elections. They know how much good/damage we are capable of. Honestly, I think most people I talked to over there knew more about our candidates than the Average American Joe. Polls at the time (August '04) were showing Euros favoring Kerry over Bush by something like 87%-7%. They are way smarter than us in many ways...
Eric Atkinson,
Find just one place where Obama has been unfavourably compared to Stalin on this blog, moron. For that matter, one favourable comment of any kind on Stalin.
By the way, you do realise that if McCain gets in, there's a good chance the creationist loon Palin will be President?
First, define "pro american".
Second, explain why McCain is "pro american" and not Obama.
Hey, Eric, perhaps you should check this out
http://politicalcompass.org/images/uscandidates2008.png
http://politicalcompass.org/images/axeswithnames.gif
It's safe to say Obama is still in the upper right category and far more Libertarian than Stalin...
Nice graph..I bet the data was provided by MSNBC.
"I am sorry. I should have said "The messiah" "
Further moronism.
Also, not putting quote marks or blockquote tags, or anything around my comment.
"I am not happy with McCain but at least he is pro american."
And now I can completely write you off.
Maybe you might look at the way BHO voted in the Senate as opposed to his talking points
Rey Fox...angry liberal.
Nov. 5th 2008 Rey may explode.
John Brack McBama... more of the same, no matter which of them wins. The differences between these candidates is minimal, and the more you think the differences between them are noteworthy, the more you've been hoodwinked by the state and the media.
I used to be of an opinion similar to this in 2000. I've lived through the last eight years. My opinion is now radically at odds with this. The Supreme Court alone should be enough for you to re-evaluate your apparent policy of making the perfect the enemy of the good. We ain't never gonna get perfect, bro. It's time to settle for "is not in the control of lying scumbags, and actually has some vestige of a good-faith desire to serve the republic as its chief executive." The stakes are too high for this kind of apathy masquerading as incorruptible principles.
http://ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htm
There you go Eric...
btw Josh, it's cute how you seem to assume that money is the solution to hungry people.
Food is the solution to hungry people, Dutch, and money can buy food.
Dutch Delight,
Well money could certainly help. Hungry people are (currently) not hungry because there isn't any food, but because they can't afford to buy what there is. Longer term, of course, you need structural economic, political and social change, improved farming methods, mitigation of climate change and other forms of environmental damage, and an end to global population growth.
Thank you, Nick @108, I didn't feel like writing that much.
I don't discount money is helpful in solving most problems, in reality though, money is unlikely to even make it into the top 10 list of reasons why millions of people are hungry and live in poverty.
No, money is not the cause, Dutch, perhaps you misunderstood. Money can help. The causes are irrelevant to what helps, the solutions matter to the cause.
Unfortunately about 62 million of those people voted in America in 2000 and 2004.
Dutch Delight,
Sorry, you're just wrong. see for example:
http://www.oxfam.org/en/news/2008/pr080418_changes_needed_to_tackle_glo…
Why? Did someone smear some oil on his forehead?
Ignorance I can handle, but someone who adds ignorant commentary to his earlier ignorant statements does no one any good, and makes him look like an idiot.
Perhaps you meant "savior"?
I don't think of him as such, since there is no saving the U.S.
The election of the fool idiot actor in the 1980s destroyed the country. "It is mourning in America!"
We will continue to spiral down in ignominy. The only thing that can possibly be done is to slow our decline.
That won't happen.
McCain will win, and Palin will be the president in 3-4 years. The religious right will vote for McCain as a bloc. Liberal fragmentation and racism will ensure a McCain win.
In fact atheism is the solution to hungry people. Atheists are already driving up the price of succulent snackable infants. Financiers are already providing the monetary tools for prospective mothers to receive payment for their product prior to or shortly after conception, thus ensuring adequate funds to receive the best pre-natal care, ensuring healthy stock. As atheism continues to spread, the price of infants and yearlings will become high enough to raise any enterprising mother out of poverty, and put food on her table.
And the rest of the world will shed a tear
´
Mission accomplished.
Ehem.
Virginia is for Obama. Virginia! And that in two series of polls in a row!
Judeo-Christian morality? That would account for Union Carbide and Bhopal then!
If you really want to see how the candidates stand on the issues, look at their votes, not at their answers to a questionnaire. salon.com had a good roundup of McCain's record. Now I can see why he'd want to skip a debate, because his record is indefensible.
Woo! I may actually be proud of my state this election.
Eric Atkinson,
why aren't you replying to my post #98 ?
So, I see McCain enjoys skipping out on debates; all kinds of debates.
Chicken.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/24/campaign.wrap/index.html
Nick, forgive me, but I don't see it saying anywhere that more piles of cash are needed. It just says money needs to be spend more wisely.As it happens, thats what I've been pointing out ever since some simpleton suggested indiscriminately throwing more free money at developing countries will solve anything.
The inability to use the many options available to distinguish quoted text from his own responses?
Dutch Delight,
Josh did not suggest "indiscriminately throwing more free money at developing countries". That's just your completely unjustified interpretation, so far as I can see.
"nation whose economy is not based on Judeo-Christian morality. "--Schlafly
So can we blame the current econimic crisis on J-C morality?
Man, I am getting even more scared each passing day. I'm wondering if we'll even be allowed to vote. Can congress/president declare a "national emergency" and suspend voting? Why do I feel as if I'm in a "Left Behind" episode waiting to be written in real life.
.
.
excuse me, getting a little paranoid there.
....must curb my paranoia and be vigilant.
Well, excuse me, when someone says
"[700 billion dollars] would also feed one hell of a lot of hungry poor people."
Without qualifying how that would actually resolve hunger in the long run, I'm assuming he wants to throw it in the same black hole where such funds tend to end up now. I don't see how that is an unjustified interpretation of such a silly blanket statement.
I already agreed that large amounts of money are helpful in pretty much enterprise, but is it realistic to use that money to bribe the "government" in Somalia to allow you passage? Are you going to buy an army at Blackwater to do it? What about disaster relief in north-korea, are you going to start a pissing contest with the nuke wielding, living god of north-korea?
Give me a break.
Dutch Delight,
When you're in a hole, it's wise to stop digging. None of what you say was implied by Josh - you just made a completely unjustified assumption.
Mr. Obama's comments on immigration policy and the border are ludicrous, almost as terrifying as McCain's. Anyone out there care to name who operates the world's largest private military, complete with submarines, jet aircraft, and almost unlimited logistical resources?
Eric Atkinson:
Don't think no one noticed your conspicuous use of Obama's full three-letter initials, BHO. Had to get the "Hussein" in there, didn't ya?
I'm willing to listen to good, reasoned arguments from anyone who disagrees with my political choices. But you haven't offered any. Why don't you? Until you do, the BHO makes you seem like a dishonest "associate it him with Saddam/muslims" type. You may not mean to project that, but it is what comes to my mind. If I'm wrong, please tell me, and explain your positions. I mean that sincerely, not as some snotty challenge.
PZ delivers Minnesota to Obama!
In all seriousness though, it's good to see someone take a reasonable stand on evolution.
If you want to call it an unjustified assumption that's fine by me. I had fun exploring the idea.
If the justified interpretation is that money buys food, thats great too. I'm glad we can now enjoy this revelation of epic proportions following what was, long ago, a simple comment to help people relate to the big numbers going around in political news, in a thread about politics...
Well, we Europeans are quite euphoric about Obama. When he spoke in Berlin, half a million people attended! When our chancellor speaks, she can be lucky if she gets an audience of 50,000.
This said, there still is a lot we don't like about Obama either. His stand on capital punishment, for example. In Europe, this is more or less unthinkable. We do understand, though, that America is different in this regard and accept this.
After all, Obama vs McCain is Enlightenment vs. Dark Ages and I don't think that this is an exaggeration. It's sad that it is something new and unconventional that a politician vows to listen to scientists and experts, that is: People who know their stuff!
And McCain pro-America? Uh, then tell my why he did not chose a running mate capable of running the nation? Don't even try to explain to me how Palin was capable to lead the US. Just today I read in the newspaper that she gets a crash-course in foreign policies at the moment. WTF!? So apparently all you need to know for presidency can be learnt in a couple of weeks? McCain is pro-McCain and nothing else and his choice for the running mate proves it.
President Awol
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2008/sep/24/george.b…
An interesting little snippet from The Guardian, UK.
Considering the one with LOTS of war time experience (- NOT) wants continue US foreign policy . . .
Well, excuse me, when someone says
"[700 billion dollars] would also solve the financial crisis."
Without qualifying how that would actually resolve the issue in the long run, I'm assuming he wants to throw it in the same black hole where such funds tend to end up now.
ago. Believe me, Europeans are VERY into our elections
Yeah, but that's because theirs are so boring. :-)
EU Candidate #1 (Party Of European Socialists): If elected I will raise taxes and expand government.
EU Candidate #2 (Nordic Green Way Way Left): Me too!
EU Candidate #3 (Cybernetic Lesbian Ninjas): Yup. I agree!
...
EU Candidate #76 (People's Front Of Judea [splitters]): Uh huh.
HEY! I'M TEASING! CALM DOWN!
#100
"Nice graph..I bet the data was provided by MSNBC."
What the fuck does this even MEAN???
If your economy is based on Judeo-Christian morality, can you charge interest on loans? Or do you need to have one of those medieval systems where you only allow Jews to charge interest, and then blame them for being greedy?
No, it doesn't... unless you are counting the laughs at the two monkeys in the race and the Americhuns behind the two gnashing their teeth.
Turns out America is part of the world. And given the global economics system, America's foreign policy and it's role in environmental destruction... it turns out it's actually important for those outside the borders.
it turns out it's actually important for those outside the borders.
Well. I guess you better start buying our votes, then. :-)
I'm cheap. A PS3 gets my vote. Maybe an iPhone with four years of service.
That much? I can buy the votes of several congressman for that price!
The problem is that most Americans are woefully ignorant of the science we are asking the candidates about.
Ok, Americans don't have a monopoly on ignorance, but so many seem to consider ignorance a quality, - something desirable.
Here in Australia we have much of the same problem, but the Ignoramia is not quite so militant. At least not yet.
@Eric Atkinson
When you make a claim like "Obama is politically to the right of Stalin", you simply expose yourself as deeply ignorant, and desperate to stay that way.
The entire EU, most of NATO and practically every substantial ally the US has (left!) is by your definition "politically just to the right of Stalin". All EU countries have some form of UHC, modest social welfare provisions and extensive educational systems, in some instances providing free education all the way up to 3rd level. In Scandinavia, not only is the education free, but students are paid living expenses. The US is the political outlier, and most of your politicians wouldn't be elected dog catcher in any other developed country. Do you now understand how absurd your comment was?
Please, for the sake of the rest of us, get your head out of the elephants arse and take a look around.
I'm with Obama most of the way on these, but why the requirement to learn English? I'd say an employer (for example) would have a right to set that requirement, but I fail to see how the languages an immigrant knows are any of the government's business. There are translated documents available already and we shouldn't get rid of them even if everyone did learn English (as many still might be more comfortable conversing in a different tongue).
That said, regarding the first answer, getting a president who knows what science is would definitely be a relief.
Eric Atkinson: I am not happy with McCain but at least he is pro american.
Gosh, where do you start with a statement that is so mind-numbingly stupid? Yes, imagine a universe where someone commits a lifetime to building themselves up to the point where they can lead a country, only to intentionally undermine it and all the leverage it gives them.
Now, GB is a moron who has managed to destroy US power in the world in almost every field - but no one would (sanely) ever accuse him of being anti-American. He clearly wants to advance his own interests, which are best advanced by advancing the interests of the organization he heads -- he's just incompetent at it. McCain as well would try to advance American interests - even if we disagree over how to do so and what those interests are.
But Obama? Of course he's a nut-case who has invested his life so that he can lead an organization only to destroy it intentionally. It's just so obvious! He wants to be C-in-C of a military so he can get rid of it, wants to sell the world's wealthiest bureaucracy which he commands for peanuts, and dismantle the political infrastructure underneath him. Of course, how did I miss it? I'm sure he wants to undermine the economic wealth which he can leverage -- it's only logical!
How do people get this deranged, while still retaining the ability to use their computer? How can part of your mind continue to function, while losing the ability to make statements that aren't even prima facie plausible? I find it difficult to understand such a level of absolute cretinage in someone who apparently isn't drooling on themselves.
I find it difficult to understand such a level of absolute cretinage in someone who apparently isn't drooling on themselves. frog
Actually, I've known at least one highly intelligent person who drooled on himself! (Athetoid cerebral palsy.)
NG: Actually, I've known at least one highly intelligent person who drooled on himself! (Athetoid cerebral palsy.)
Drum roll please!
Well, that's what I get for the hyperbole...
That is not what Eric said, exactly. He said the only criticism Obama receives from the liberals here is that he is to the right of Stalin. Eric was not criticising Obama, but instead criticising us "liberals" as being to the left of Stalin.
Now that that is clear; Eric, you're still a moron for saying that.
I love that question about PhD students. Of course British and Commonwealth science researchers are quite keen to get experience working in the US. Their English is good and such experience also benefits the Commonwealth countries indirectly. Scientists and engineers with Pakistan connections are probably feeling the pain of the Bush years the worst.
btw Josh, it's cute how you seem to assume that money is the solution to hungry people.
Dutch, assume much? I didn't say that money would solve the problem. It was a sarcastic comment related to the fact that we would never even consider collectively mobilizing an effort at that scale TO combat hunger. But thanks for the snarky comment.
It's time for Eric Atkinson and the rest of the nihilist libertarians to put their money and actions where their incessantly complaining mouths are.
So you think the Dems/Obama and the Repubs/McCain are the same and that the system is screwed and it doesn't matter who wins? Why don't you go do something constructive about it?
Let's see that spaceship to Mars, that convoy to Antarctica, or your Declaration of Open Insurrection against the Government of the USA.
Here's how $700 billion will feed a lot of hungry people, guaranteed:
Spend $200 billion on food. That will purchase a LOT of food.
Spend $500 billion to hand deliver the food, in person, to individual hungry people, one at a time, with whatever transportation, storage, and security arrangements that are required, then watch, and, if you want, videotape them eating it, and obtain signed or videotaped statements from them indicating that they are not hungry anymore.
There. Hungry person fed. Money not wasted. Digitized proof obtained.
It's no the most efficient way to do it. But it will satisfy the criteria of the naysayers.
amphiox@152,
Hear, hear! Actually, they don't even need to go that far - and I certainly don't want them mucking up Antarctica. L. Ron Hubbard managed to obtain a fair degree of de facto independence with his "Sea Org". Come on loonytarians - what's stopping you?