The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as they insist on being called, has earned another reason to be regarded with a sneer of contempt: they sent a letter to all of their churches in California urging their adherents to vote for Proposition 8. It's bizarre that a religion known for being out of step with the rest of the country on the issue of marriage, a place populated with polygamists and young girls treated as chattel and coaxed into child marriages, now wants to "preserve the sacred institution of marriage". They sunk tens of millions of dollars into the campaign.
Californians are rightly demonstrating against the Mormon church—I'd be more than a little pissed off myself. After Enron enriched itself by bilking Californians, now you've got Salt Lake City trying to turn you into a little Utah. You've got cause to be annoyed at the way you're being targeted.
People are trying to do something, and one thought is to try and revoke the Mormon church's tax exempt status. Ah, sweet dream. I'd dearly love to see Obama repair the damage to our economy by revoking religious tax exemptions across the board, and refill our treasury with loot from the theological con artists. Alas, I'm at an Americans United meeting, and the place is crawling with lawyers and experts on separation of church and state issues, and I asked Barry Lynn directly what kind of legal recourse we had, and he regretfully pointed out that what the Mormon church did was entirely legal. It was ethically repugnant, of course, but complaining to the IRS is likely to net you doodly-squat in this case.
We may have to settle for escalating our mockery of mormonism. It's not hard, after all: it is one of the most palpably ridiculous, unethical, dumb-ass religions flourishing in our unfortunate nation of theological dumb-asses. Did you know that being excommunicated from the Mormon church can get you expelled from BYU? Don't go to BYU (not that there's much chance many of my readers would do so), and feel free to sneer a little bit at the poor BYU graduates. Forget that ski vacation in Park City; Colorado has great snow, too. Be even ruder to the next pair of white-shirted Mormon missionaries who come to your door. Hey, does anyone know what a Mormon would find heretical? Send me something they find sacred.
Otherwise, we're just stuck with this ugly outcome. All we can do is be more aware of the flock of smug, sanctimonious, hypocritical holy meddlers in our midst.
Remember, though, that all they were doing is trying to keep the definition of marriage as it has been since the beginning of time. Dumb-asses.
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Might I suggest Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's "A Study In Scarlet", one of the early Sherlock Holmes novels and reflective of how mormons were seen in the last century. Available in economical paperback for gifting those white-shirted gentlemen.
Their underwear. You get a pair of those "magical mystical underpants" and wear them around for awhile then mail them back to the temple in SLC.
I think you mean "to vote for" Prop 8?
Anyway, yeah, it's disgusting, there were protests here the next day of the election, good to know that people are pushing back.
Best line.
:O
whoop-dee-doo, magic happened, and there was no error.
By the way, the fucking caths, my (ex)sect, were also responsible for this crap. I'd like to see some protestin' outside those churches, or having their tax privileges removed as well.
Humm lets see.
Magic underwear
Wives must be invited into heaven by their husbands.
Theology constantly changeable on additional revelation from leaders. (see what happened in 1978)
The book of mormon more correct than any book ...EVAH (yet there have been thousands of corrections to it...)
Baptism of the dead. Yes you to can become a mormon....after you are dead
Native American's are the lost tribe of Israel (Hi Lehi!)
Jesus visited North American
Celestial Marriage
Founded by a Con man and criminal
lets see what else.....
While I think the LDS should have their tax exempt status revoke, I also think it is an unlikely scenario. Even if the churches themselves can't speak out, there is no way to stop their members from acting on their own, with their own money. Still, we need to work on the concept of MYOB, and make the groups who won't look like the bullies they are.
As a pissed off Californian, I'd love to see one or all of several things happen:
1) A new proposition that would repeal Prop. H8 (not bloody likely at present)
2) The Legislature stepping in and repealing it. (doubtful)
3) A test case wend it's way through the federal court system to arrive at the door step of the Supreme Court with one or two newly appointed justices.
It wasn't that long ago that this conservative court repealed all sodomy laws. With a few more moderate or (FSM willing) liberal judges it could do wonders for gay rights in this country.
Its an unfortunate fact that many African-Americans who went to the polls for Obama also voted for Prop. H8. There seems to be a lot of resistance to the idea that gay rights and civil rights are the same thing. There is of course a lot of scripture quoted which is really odd considering that more of that fairy tale addresses the keeping of slaves than it does homosexuality. That's the problem with that piece of trash, Martin Luther King can find words to inspire and so can Fred Phelps.
I think that, until fairly recently, admitting that a black man was fully human would at least get you censured in the LSD Church.
I find it amusing that the Mormons spent $115 million to deny human beings basic civil rights and then have the nerve to be surprised that there is a backlash. They also seem pissed off that their contribution is even mentioned.
Is there is a website out there for ammunition for the door-to-door Mormons? I've seen them creeping about my neighborhood recently. I usually tell them to go away, but I might get an itch to sit down with them and then cross-examine them.
Post #7 had a good place to start. But I wonder if there's a really good website going deeper into this stuff?
PZ wrote:
Not as bizarre as it seems. They want to integrate with the old "moral majority." They want their own quirks over looked. And ultimately their marriages are about producing children and less about "romantic" love.
Obama wouldn't ever do that. I wish he would. But no one is going to do that until this country turns around on the culture wars. Even in European societies where atheism is high they give financial support to the church.
Yep! Always a good idea. That contradiction between their own marriage practices and their attack on other's marriages is rich in humor to mine.
OT but amusing:
Monks brawl at Jerusalem shrine.
Here is the actual link displaying the dumbassitude mentioned in the blogpost referred to by PZ's link at the end of his post...
At least - I was gratified in finding - there were a few sane people in the comments (except for the Anon person, who surprisingly (NOT!) sounded like the blogger himself/herself)...
And talk about the oppressed becoming the oppressor... What's with 70% of African Americans voting in favor of the despicable Proposition 8?
If I had known you were going to broach this topic today, I would have tried to hang around longer after the lecture last night. I'm the guy who explained what's supposed to happen to the dropped host, but most of my information on Catholic matters comes from my highly informed, formerly devout friend who was sitting to my right.
Myself, I'm a former member of the LDS faith and I wouldn't mind giving you a primer on LDS stuff. For example, I note funda62 above and other posters on other sites talk about sending things to the temple. And though the temples are iconic, they have no real administrative function in the faith. All the real business is handled out of the 28-story Church Office Building:
http://www.lds.org/placestovisit/location/0,10634,1866-1-1-1,00.html
Anyway, I'm happy to field questions, though I'll be busy at work today. :)
The way to really piss in these chaps' porridge is to donate to Lambda Legal, ACLU and other organizations that are working on this in the courts.
The current anti-gay laws are a patchwork of local statutes and state constitutional amendments that are specifically intended to deny homosexuals the legal protections of marriage. They're the best the homophobes can manage, but they're tissue thin and will be wiped from the face of the earth as soon as SCOTUS is forced to rule on them.
One 1960s case that should put the wind up the Mormons and all the "Yes on 8" bigots: Loving v. Virginia. Another: Brown v. Board of Education. These laws will die an ignominious death.
I lived in Utah for a few years in the mid-80's, and it was an eye opening experience, to put it mildly. Stores featured tee shirts that said "Welcome to Utah. Remember to set your clocks back 200 years." My wife and I (who look like we could be Mo's) weren't asked "DO you have children?", but rather "How MANY children do you have?" People really do wear that funny underwear.
I was a manager at a computer company in Provo, and had an employee who was chronically late. When I confronted him about it, he cheerfully explained that morning prayers with his children took over an hour, and that was more important to him than his job. Smiled the whole time, as if that explanation should excuse any and all latenesses. (At a job interview at another Utah company, I was asked straight out where I had gone on my mission, because he didn't see it mentioned on my resume. I didn't get that job.)
After about three years, it finally wore us down and we moved to California. Utah is a stunningly beautiful part of the country, but the Mo's have turned it into a mad, theocratic wasteland. Mormonism is a truly virulent societal disease, and I am deeply disturbed to see its growing influence extend into California and elsewhere.
Back in 2004 when the Tennessee Marriage Amendment was on the ballot, I attended a service where the preacher told the church exactly how to vote on the measure. I thought it was a clear violation of the tax exception status.
Isn't this the very definition of electioneering?
I have a big (so large that it is a landmark) Mormon church near me. I think it has lots of gold in it. You might have heard of it. It is near Lake Chabot science center in California.
It is the exact definition James.
I'm a non Mormon business owner in Utah(closed for the winter)and I can tell you that not everybody here is happy with this situation.Okay, we're a small, small minority. But we do exist. Please ask, "Are you a Mormon owned business?" If the answer is yes, HANG UP ON EM".
And why the hell does every other tax exempt organization have to remain politically neutral, except churches? If they want to pay the game, they have to pay the dues.
this is interesting but not really surprising.
Guess who one of the biggest financial supporters of Prop 8 was?
Elsa Prince Broekhuizen, mother of the head of Blackwater, Eric Prince.
I looks like I am one of several pissed off californians.
How bad are things in Mississippi since Obama won the election?
Here in Mississippi, some of the locals are going ape shit over this election. Whitey has been keeping the Black guy down so long around here they don't know how to act. You're not gonna believe the following, but if you want to read about an institutional attempt to abuse our SCHOOLCHILDREN....
Outlawing Mississippi Enthusiasm for Obama
http://thetimchannel.com/?p=245
Enjoy.
"They also seem pissed off that their contribution is even mentioned." - Billy, #10
Many of the radio ads for Prop 8 clearly stated that the primary sponsors were the LDS Church and the Knights of Columbus.
PZ - you relay that what the Mormons did was legal. I do not doubt the accuracy of what you were told, but as a layman I am very curious as to *why* (or how) it is legal. Can you expand on what the fine Barry Lynn told you?
FYI - I am not totally against churches receiving tax exemption, as taxing churches can lead to religious prosecution. I am a devout atheist, but believe everybody has the right to be delirious about a god. But once a church steps over that political threshold, they should lose that exemption.
Technically I do not think it is. I believe they are barred from supporting any political party or candidate but propositions do not fall under that rule. in the same way that churches are allowed to tell their parishioners how to vote on issues but not on candidates.
I could be off on that but I believe I heard some explanation about it that included the above.
Looking online right now to find a better explanation.
Speaking of the Americans United meeting, Ed Brayton has posted a picture of himself and Prof. Myers standing next to each other. Is Prof. Myers going to comment on his encounter with Mr. Brayton?
In addition to # 7:
Mormons believe that Jesus is Satan's older brother.
Now *this* is the PZ I know and love!
If Pharyngula isn't already blocked at BYU, I'll be surprised.
And terribly disappointed. You'll just have to work harder, PZ ;)
Sunday sermons in Roman Catholic churches prominently featured "respect for marriage" in the weeks before the election. As my mother explained to me, her pastor merely "gave out information, he didn't tell us which way to vote." I scoffed at her claim: "You mean you couldn't tell which way you were supposed to vote?" Without thinking, she blurted, "Oh, you have to vote No!" Right. And I'm sure she did.
That and the whole "no taxation without representation".
Once you start taxing Churches, you legitimize their call for a say so in Government.
Now if they break the tax law they should have their tax status rescinded. But I'm not sold on removing tax exemption for all churches just on the basis of it sounds good.
I could be convinced otherwise.
The Los Angeles Times has an interesting map of the results, a county-by-county map of which side won, and by how much. Here's one for Proposition 8, and a similar one back in 2000, Proposition 22: Gay marriage ban: A tale of two votes. The rejection of gay marriage went down from 61%-39% in 2000 to 52%-48% this year, and the biggest supporters of gay marriage were in the San Francisco Bay Area. Support increased from some to all the counties there, and opposition decreased in some other urban areas, notably Los Angeles County and Sacramento County. However, much of the Central Valley and the North End had little change.
So I think that what made the difference for the Bay Area was San Francisco's very visible gay community. Elsewhere, Los Angeles has a sizable gay community in West Hollywood, even if it does not stand out as much as SF's.
Which could be a lesson for atheist activists -- visibility helps.
The original definition of marriage as it has been from the beginning of time, is that the tribal leader gets to marry as many women as he can fuck with or without their consent. Why Mormons are concerned with the definition of marriage.
"Do the Left not understand that the majority of Californians want to keep the definition of marriage as it has been since the beginning of time?"
Do the right not understand that they glorify ignorance?
I used to attend church for a few years and I remember my church passing around a petition to get a marriage ammendment on the ballot. I don't really think the church fears any sort of legal ramifications... nothing will happen. I've seen preachers say straight-up that one can't be a Christian and vote for a dem.
I hope Obama has a pair and does what he needs to do... though I suspect he won't because he knows just as well as me that a majority of voting Americans are ignorant bastards... and surely Obama wouldn't wanna be seen as "elite."
"Do the right not understand that they glorify ignorance?" - S. Fisher, #36
As Sarah Palin recently repeatedly demonstrated, ignorance is a virtue for the right-wing fundagelical evolution-deniers.
How do you keep a Mormon from drinking all the beer at your party? Invite two of them.
No matter what the Mormon Church thinks, Utah is still subject to US laws. I'd think the thing to do is start a long-term movement of non-Mormons into Utah. Get some fresh thinking into the state, and demand equal rights and freedom from religious discrimination.
It seems to me that anyone applying for a job in Utah, for instance, and questioned about their "mission" as part of the job interview, might have some basis for a discrimination lawsuit. I wonder if a class action suit is possible.
On the other hand, we could just sit back and let them make themselves more of a laughingstock.
This protest by the church over being targeted for their support of Prop 8 probably means they're feeling some heat for what they've done.
...............
And I still think naming that angel "Moroni" (the angel who supposedly revealed the holy golden plates) was an obvious joke on his idiot followers by Joseph Smith.
Heh -- interesting tidbit from Wikipedia's "Angel Moroni" entry:
"Some scholars have theorized that Smith became familiar with the name "Moroni" through his study of the treasure-hunting stories of Captain William Kidd. Because Kidd was said to have buried treasure in the Comoros islands, and Moroni is the name of the capital city and largest settlement in the Comoros, it has been suggested that Smith borrowed the name of the settlement and applied it to the angel who led him to buried treasure--the golden plates. Complementing this proposal is the theory that Smith borrowed the names of the Comoros islands and applied them to the hill where he found the golden plates, which he named Cumorah."
bwwahaha
I wonder if Lluarraaarara will show back up.
Hmmmm .... articles sacred to Mormons?
Drive a nail through Romney's magic undies?
I'd almost consider it. Utah is beautiful. I used to spend a few months a year in Zion National Park and Maple Canyon.
But the tightened fist of Mormonism is evident everywhere.
I've actually heard that it's starting to happen on its own though. As the population changes, the church's death hold on Utah is loosing.... however slightly.
I'm actually enrolled at BYU, though not attending this semester. I was gonna wait until I graduated to remove my name from the church's records since I'm close to graduation, but the way the Mormon church has handled this has really pissed me off too and will probably do so this month. Right now I'm looking at getting a job in Salt Lake and just leaving BYU to finish up at the University of Utah. Oh, and I do happen to have some brand new pairs of the magic underwear laying around here, should anybody want them.
It's bizarre that a religion known for being out of step with the rest of the country on the issue of marriage, a place populated with polygamists and young girls treated as chattel and coaxed into child marriages, now wants to "preserve the sacred institution of marriage".
Erm, in the mainstream LDS Church, polygamy has been prohibited since 1890, and child marriage is not practised. It's only some of the breakaway fundamentalist sects which still practise these things.
Chicago Bears quarterback great Jim McMahon had a couple of great quotes about his alma mata.
"Happiness is Prove in the rearview"
When asked about the best thing about BYU,
McMahon's response "Leaving!"
The LDS church is an odd bird. They want to be recognized as a "peculiar people", but at the same time they want to be the same as any other religion. To embarrass them keep pointing out the silliness of a con-man as a first prophet. The manifesto repealing plural marriage was not prophesy, but later was accepted as such. The Book of Morman (BOM) has been altered, edited and changed thousands of times, so some revelation huh? As a deconverted Mormon in Utah it's tough not to laugh at my friends and maintain a level of civility, but most of my Mormon friends do not support a limit on civil rights of Gays, but they must do as the "prophet" says. Dumb asses.
Christians are humanity's crazy uncle, Mormons are his bat-shit crazy brother. Yet we keep electing the followers of these ideologies?
Funny about the Catholics. Mormons usually hate the Catholics. There are two Popes who talk to god regularly, one in the Vatican, and one in SLC (the "President"). Each one is convinced the other is an imposter.
Fundies claim the Mormons are heretics. By their theology, they are heretics.
As Huckabee pointed out, jesus and satan are brothers. No big deal, jesus and satan are also the brothers of all humans as we are all children of god and his wives.
God is married to an unknown but large fleet of baby making goddesses. You too can become a god with your own baby making harem and your own planet, only males of course.
The LDS beliefs are no stranger than most other belief systems but they are only vaguely related to the xian ones.
My impression is Mormonism is a strenuous religion to follow. They tithe 10%, seem to have meetings all through the week, a lot of "volunterr" activities as there isn't much of paid clergy, the semi required missions, a lot of pressure for conformity to the point where they all seem to be clones.
No coffee or wine. I could give up wine with much regret but coffee, forget it, no way!!! Some claim that there is a high conversion rate, matched by a high dropout rate.
Peaceful protest of Prop H8 at the Capitol Building in Sacramento this afternoon. (Sunday)
Some mormons came to my door the other day as I was coming home carrying in a computer & monitor and they stood there with their fake plastic smiles and asked me if I needed any help. It occured to me that their attitude was so motherfucking fake. My own neighbors wouldn't have asked me that. The mormons were women and it would have been actually funny if I had said yes, please carry this monitor in.
I would have liked to tell them how much I wished they were lesbians and that prop 8 applied to them.
Seriously how does it affect anyone if anyone else gets married? Christopher Hitchens was right tho- RELIGION POISONS EVERYTHING - even the right to marry in the great liberal bastion of California-
Actually I agree with Walton on this one. The one True LDS church has made these practices a big no no. I mean who cares that the only reason they really threw it out was to get statehood...
But since it is their policay, The One True LDS church has plenty of its own fucked up marriage doctrines to make fun of without mentioning Polygamy.
policay... wtf is policay
Policy
KoT
Now you nigger-hugging liberals get to see what happens if you give them the same rights as to real people: they turn around and bite you in the ankle!
The Righteous Americans have once again defeated the bent commies!
Actually, there is something more that can be done. One might consider not holding conferences in Utah. For instance, there's a pretty sizable one planned for Snowbird in July '09. Maybe it ought to be held somewhere where it's a little less likely to funnel money to the Mormons? Just sayin'.
More about the upcoming conference may be found here: Botany & Mycology 2009.
The LDS church is an odd bird. They want to be recognized as a "peculiar people"
Well, I don't have any problem with that; downright weird, I'd say!
#54
You must be joking, right? It is always difficult to gauge intent online, but Righteous Americans...really? And that first sentence of yours gives me the feeling you just like attention and one supposes scorn. Did you start fires as a child?
Getting a pair of magic mormon underpanties sounds like a good idea but i think it'll be a little more difficult to get them than it was to get crackers. You could sneak into some mormons bedroom and remove them while he was sleeping maybe.
Also im interested to know how you would desecrate them. Put them on and eat a tin of baked bean, then fart in them for several hours? Then, once they are thouroughly soaked in methane you could try lighting them up.
Burning Umbrella,
I think you might have crossed the line with that one. I'm sure it appeals to your particular brand of humor, but really? Was that the least bit necessary?
Burning Umbrella likes to pull Poes on us. Once we realized it, we started to smile and move on. We have a couple of others who are just here to mock and disrupt, and aren't as funny. They get shredded.
Utah has a falling percentage of Mormons, now at 60% and down from 75% a few decades ago. It is projected that in 22 years, they will lose their majority. Or not, this is disputed. Maybe the Mormon church counts like the Catholics, once in your in whether you leave or not.
SLC itself is majority nonmormon although a map I looked at once indicated that they gerrymandered the state so all the heathens and pagans were in one spot, at least for local elections. The mayor of SLC IIRC, is a far left democrat.
Some of my relatives live in Utah and I've been there many times. The state is spectacularly wild and attractive and SLC looks prosperous, modern and clean. There seem to be two coexisting and highly segregated societies, one LDS and one pagans that virtually never interact beyond unavoidable routine commerce.
Perhaps some of the ire is misplaced. I have to point out that the Mormons didn't pull this off alone. Many of the African Americans who voted for Obama on the same ballot voted for prop 8. A large proportion of Africa-Americans are tragically homophobic, even if not necessarily for religious reasons.
Blaming the Mormons for this is like blaming Nader for the 2000 election. Why not point the finger at the huge percentage of people who voted Bush over Gore? In this case: What about the large proportion of Californians not Mormons?
So true. My hope is that -- because what the LDS church did was legal while being over-the-top unethical -- this episode may inspire people to seriously reconsider the current laws about churches and what they must declare to the IRS.
As a BYU alum, I've been advising young atheists there to transfer (including getting their transcripts and credits transferred ASAP) before "coming out" because what happened to Chad Hardy doesn't surprise me in the least. This has been their policy for decades, and probably from the beginning, as far as I know.
The LDS Church has just come out with the most outrageous press release complaining that they would be the target of political protests. There have been many responses -- you can see mine here.
No, I'm pretty sure you can pick them up at the local ZCMI.
Calling Phil Plait:
While looking up "Danites: I found:
Now if those damned astronomers will just chart God's throne, you atheist assholes are TOAST! BWAhhahahahahahahahahaha
(Mormonism:"I reject your reality and substitute... some crazy shit that a well-adjusted 8 year old would know is ludicrous.")
"Getting a pair of magic mormon underpanties sounds like a good idea but i think it'll be a little more difficult to get them than it was to get crackers."
True, because you have to have one of their temple recommends. But, I used to have one, and have several unused pairs still, so it won't be all that hard to get if PZ (or anyone else for that matter) wants them.
Jeeves:
ISTR that BU has admitted to being a Poe before.
I could be wrong on that above. Might have been that way in the past but now...
More here
I agree: Never let the the churches lose their tax exemption, because as the good Rev BDC says, this would lead to a demand for representation in government, one of the first steps towards a theocracy (like we aren't already headed in that direction).
I say fine the f*ck out of them, like what may happen to those asshole pastors who violated tax exemption law when they ordered their sheeple to vote for McSame. (Question for those sheeple: How did that work out, by the way? Why didn't "God" throw you losers a bone on this one?)
Hmm, if I was to find a fault in #54, it might lack some misogyny. I'll get that the next time.
#60,
I've looked through some of his posts from previous entries and I see what you mean. Regardless, there was a reason why Borat was released in the theaters and not through the medium of print.
# 40:
And yes, there is a Moron in the Book of Mormon (Ether 1:7).
#55: Yes! Let's mobilize the awesome collective political power of our nation's massed Botanists and Mycologists to smash the System! Clenched-fist-salute of nonanimal multicellular eukaryotic solidarity, baby!
Do the magic underpants enable you to fly? If so, do you have to wear them as outer garments, like Superman?
I've got a few more words that should have their 'traditional' meaning protected. As others have mentioned as well, here's a partial list. Feel free to add.
'Human' now only refers to white people.
'Person' now refers only to males.
'Marriage' must refer back to its original meaning - a white male and a white female.
'Baby' is the thing that falls out of the woman during birth. The study of embryogenesis is irrelevant.
'Government' now is back to meaning 'monarchy'.
'President' now must revert to 'King'.
What a great world awaits us. You know what they say: 2 steps forward, 97 steps backwards.
be careful PZ, the only nations I know of that don't financially support (directly or indirectly through tax exemptions) are the communist nations. That was one of the things that Pope John Paul II tried, unsuccessfully, to change when he visited Cuba.
It so happens that I agree with you, a self-proclaimed godless liberal, about this quasi-Christian cult. Their own record on one man/one woman marriage is spotty, at best, and they would seek to add their own "scriptures" to God's Holy Word. Otherwise, I think you're more or less full of it.
Ether 1:7 - Ka
So, are the books named after the psychotropics Joe Smith was on when he composed them? I'm told ether can be a great laugh if the amount is carefully calibrated, a bit like getting falling-down drunk in ten seconds, then sober again within a few minutes!
Don't you get your own planet when you die, according to Mormonism? Do you get oxygen to breathe on that planet as well?
Otherwise, I think you're more or less full of it. - RevRight
And we should give a wombat's testicles about that because...?
And I loved this little tidbit on the Book Of Moron Mormon:
My apologies, Burning Umbrella.
I can not think of a better example of Poe than your site Rev. Right
"It so happens that I agree with you, a self-proclaimed godless liberal, about this quasi-Christian cult. Their own record on one man/one woman marriage is spotty, at best, and they would seek to add their own "scriptures" to God's Holy Word. Otherwise, I think you're more or less full of it."
It so happens that I agree with you, a self-proclaimed fundie retard, about this quasi-Christian cult. Their own record on one man/one woman marriage is spotty, at best, and they would seek to add their own "scriptures" to God's Holy Word a bunch of other bullshit. Otherwise, I think you're more or less full of it.
If going to Heaven means spending the rest of my life with these hateful, so-called "righteous" people, I'm not so sure that's where I want to end up!
Re #84 - So, "you may use HTML tags for style," but apparently my strike tags didn't work on "God's Holy Word".
I think this is something that all of us--godless and devout, liberal and conservative, Christian and Jew and Muslim, atheist and agnostic, Catholic and Protestant, militant and appeaser, Shiite and Sunni, Democrat and Republican, Rastafarian and Pastafarian, Beatle and Rolling Stone, Buddhist and Shintoist, libertarian and interesting--can agree on:
Those fucking Mormons are batshit crazy!
Now the task is to find a way to use this single point of agreement as a fulcrum of unity, by which the people, united against the crazy fucking idiot Mormons, can accomplish some of the hard tasks that face us in the near future. Ideas?
Like, maybe, we could agree to store the high-level nucular waste from all our new too-cheap-to-meter power plants in their decommisioned Temples and treasure caches?
Huh What?
Well, if you're dead, why do you need oxygen? And if you become a god, presumably you can make your own.
Since anyone can (potentially) become a god or baby making goddess, the corollary is that there must be a huge number of gods. I asked a Mormon about this once, she said that Mormonism wasn't polytheistic because the other gods weren't "our god". Whatever.
PZ,
There was a massive protest in Salt Lake, between 3000 and 5000 people showed up. Member, non-member, ex-member (myself), young, old, gay, straight, it was an incredible crowd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdWsJcteW4Q
Not all of Utah agrees with the politics of the church. Salt Lake City proper as well as Park City are both extremely gay friendly places.
One way you can help is by getting the word out that we're organizing a mass resignation of membership from the church. This is the final straw for many people and they're ready to call it quits. The site people can head to for information on this mass resignation is http://signingforsomething.org
Help us get the word out.
Baptism of the dead. Yes you to can become a mormon....after you are dead
Should it turn out that there is an afterlife, and any descendant of mine does such a thing to me, I will haunt the little putz.
Incidentally, I am absolutely opposed to the idea of using the IRS as a behavior modification tool.
-jcr
"...I asked Barry Lynn directly what kind of legal recourse we had, and he regretfully pointed out that what the Mormon church did was entirely legal."
So what part of 'must not get involved with politics to be tax-exempt' don't I understand?
epsilon @#86,
See my Formatting comments in movable type for that.
Re RevRight at #77: I clicked on the link to his blog, and I think it's a satire of some kind. Content includes:
Suppose you have potential leader #1, who is clearly educated, smart, and well-spoken, but has no genuine relationship with God. How does such a candidate stack up against leader #2, who, while possessing a sketchy academic record and seeming a bit dense, has an intimate relationship with the all-knowing God of the universe? I don't know about you, but I'll take the mind of God over human "intelligence" any day of the week!
Therefore, since Sarah Palin has self-identified as a conservative Christian and is close enough to God to understand His will regarding an oil pipeline, I am confident that she will be able to draw on the infinite wisdom of our Lord as it pertains to other matters of national interest.
I'm 95% certain this is a parody intended to take the piss out of Palin supporters. Or at least, that's how it reads to me.
epsilon, the strikeout tag here is a single's'. I don't know why.
"Hey, does anyone know what a Mormon would find heretical? Send me something they find sacred."
The worst of the worst? Pictures of their sacred underwear-preferably if a non-morg is wearing them in the picture. And the morg are horrified if their secret temple rituals are publicized because they like to rub it in the young adult non-marrieds and those who haven't been on a mission that they ain't nuthin' until they've earned their sacred underwear and heard the super secret rituals.
Of course, all of this is already online (praise to the internet) but it's still the worst thing you can do is flaunt the sacred underwear and secret temple rituals.
And believe me, you ain't seen NUTHIN' until you've seen what those temple rituals are like. At least they took out the slashing of the throat if you told their secrets ritual.
RevRight,
Ha, ha, ha, your moron candidates got well and truly whupped. Your lies about the election being stolen are noted, you pathetic piece of crud. Please continue your campaign for "Palin 2012" - that will ensure the Theothuglicans are unelectable for a generation.
@PYRETTE: I'd say simply soak them in cheap wine/alcohol, and maybe some coffee dregs.
Also, people may like to know that if they donate 5$ or more to the effort to invalidate Prop 8. through the LA Gay&Lesbian center, in the name of President Monson, the Center will send him a(snarky) postcard informing him thanking him for the donation made in his name.Thanks go to John Scalzi for sowing this information on the internet winds.
And see his page on evolution. He's got a table, with on one side a detailed catalogue of scientific evidence for evolution, and on the other side a massive picture of the Bible.
I am now 98% certain his blog is a satire.
http://revright.wordpress.com/evolution/
epsilon@86: you need to just use "s" and "/s" - between angle brackets of course.
It appears ScienceBlogs uses a older form of tags. Supposedly the 's' is superseded by something else on the latest tags.
And thus, the "downlow" or "DL" culture thrives in the shadows. The only thing worse than being gay in African American Culture is to be an atheist (Hmmm, sounds familiar...).
I find the christianization of a majority of African Americans bitterly ironic - free them from physical chains but tether their minds to a religion where they could be controlled ideologically through faith in "Jeeeeesus". It's why every conservative was so freaked out by Jeremiah Wright - he went off script.
Nick Gotts # 78:
Oh no, Joseph Smith probably got high on ziff.
will be wiped from the face of the earth as soon as SCOTUS is forced to rule on them.
Tony,
Your faith in the Supreme Court is misplaced. They only upheld our right to self-defense by one vote, and they allowed local governments to rob people of their land and hand it over to anyone who will pay more in taxes. Putting an equal protection case in their hands is rolling the dice with very poor odds.
-jcr
RevBigDumbChimp - I am unfamiliar with your "Poe" reference, though I hope you were duly edified by your visit to my site.
walton - I assure that my remarks are in earnest. Dismissing me as some sort of "satire" is, frankly, hurtful. If you are able to refute the truths I present, well, do your darndest!
Since the links seem to have malfunctioned, here are the addresses:
the LA Gay&Lesbian center donation page: https://secure2.convio.net/laglc/site/Donation2?idb=1227248265&df_id=19…
Scalzi's post: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2008/11/07/fighting-bigotry-with-snark/
"There is nothing more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge."
Hunter S. Thompson
Rev. BigDumbChimp - It must have been a miracle from god!
Emmett and Sven - Thanks.
** and good English has went to Utah **
• "They sunk (sic!) sank tens of millions of dollars into the campaign." The absolute past of 'to sink' is 'sank' not 'sunk.' 'Sunk' is its past participle. You need an editor who knows grammar --
Amending (or is that amen-ing) our state constitution is too easy. Amendments to the US constitution require 3/4 of the states to approve. Maybe we shoot for at least a 2/3 vote to amend the constitution of CA. The state standard for raising taxes is a 2/3 majority --
Well, we can vote to annul the damn thing. It still might be unconstitutional under an equal protection argument.
I'm convinced however that God couldn't care about so mundane a matter. Being caretaker of the cosmos and all.
bipolar2 terra linda, ca
Desecrating the mormon's "temple garments" is not particularly effective in their eyes since they believe the garments are only "sacred" as long as the wearer holds them to be sacred. If a non-believer gets hold of them they magically lose their sacredness. Ergo, you're just ridiculing a pair of strange underwear.
As a former LDS type person, I would have to say the most sensitive thing in Mormondom is the undeniable fact that they have had to change some of their doctrines which they formerly held as direct from god and therefore un-changeable. Polygamy was considered a "higher law", eternal and not to be trifled with. We know how that turned out.
Blacks in the priesthood was considered impossible until all the world had had a chance to hear and accept the gospel. Only then would blacks be accepted (because of the curse of Cain, of course).
It pains the old mormons to consider these and other changes.
If those nice young people come to your door, just tell them religion, in all its manifestations, is ridiculous and they should grow up. They've been yelled at so many times, its not going to effect them much.
Anybody know where I could get a lid of decent ziff?
epsilon@86: you need to just use "s" and "/s" - between angle brackets of course.
Walton@94,
On a second look at the site, I think you're right! The page on evolution is the giveaway: the guy actually appears to know something about it! But, Rev. Right, if you're still there, how were we supposed to tell from your contribution here?Believe me, it was well down in the battiness league among the stuff that gets posted here by creobots!
I do not think that is how it is worded.
The 501c3 code on politics
IANAL but that appears to be only concerned with Candidates and does not deal with propositions and other similar ballot initiatives.
There was that impromptu Russell Brand quip about Mormons when he was being interviewed by Craig Ferguson. Ferguson had just told him that the only person to turn up at a gig of his was a lone woman. Brand replied: "That'll do! That's enough for a marriage! Unless you're in Salt Lake City; then it's a start."
Later that night, in his Magic Mormon Underpants...
Wait a minute!
My people were a lost tribe of jews AND sold Manhattan for 24 dollars?
Well that obviously doesn't add up.
That's got to be well below retail.
Thanks also to Nick and Nerd of Redhead. Who would have thought that godless and immoral atheists would be so helpful?
@ Matt Heath,
the downside of the internet is how hard it is to express irony. You unintentionally found more meaning in my post than I considered possible.
: )
I don't understand why you would want to take away their tax exemption status. These same exemptions permit other groups to oppose them tax free as well. Whatever happened to good old fashioned, "Good for us when we're powerless, so good for us when we're powerful."
I've been here (Utah) a little over a year and a half but, fortunately, live in one of the parks and somewhat isolated for the most part. It helps that 2 of the 4 people I work with on a daily basis are like-minded on matters of religion (though the bulk of the staff are "locals" and, of course, LDS).
There is some hope for the state at large as I have heard numbers similar to those posted by raven @#61. I've also heard that if you remove those who have left the church, but remain on the rolls, that membership in the state is actually barely above 50%. Among the few positives, not long after moving here I did look into their standards for science education and was pleasantly surprised to see that they are way ahead of quite a few states (Texas, for one, could learn a thing or two from them) in that regard.
And, hell, Obama actually carried a couple of counties - Salt Lake County was within a point but it was, surprisingly, two rural counties that he carried - and Utah has now relinquished its status as "reddest state in the country" (Oklahoma and Wyoming had higher percentages of the vote for McLame).
Not all that pertinent to the discussion but, prior to the election, one of the things particularly amusing for me was seeing some of those "Obama's a socialist" rants a few were sending around. With all that tithing going on and everybody supposed to chip in and help each other out (the latter being a good thing, but the former, well, not so much), the LDS are probably closer to being socialists than any other friggin' group in the country . . .
I would urge any former LDS here that haven't already to resign their membership to the church. Let them know they are going to lose numbers over this. Also if you haven't seen this YouTube video yet you should. I know that several mormon blogs have and they are very offended by it. Mormons love their squeaky clean image and hate to see it tarnished.
With California hurting for cash to pay to the unions, there is great power in all gay and friend of gays sending in a "pink slip" in lieu of next April's state taxes.
Rather than a check, a pink slip with the amount owed is sent with the words "withheld for right's violations" written across the paper.
Rather than stand in the streets in a mob and get beat up by cops, those who wish to declare others "not quite equal citizens" can find out just how much contribution gay men and women make to California's economy.
I don't want to generalize too much here, but gay men just seem to have a knack for being talented at something, and from where I'm from (The Bay Area) are ubiquitous high middle class citizens...
Losing that substrata when the economy is tanking will wake up and shake the masses more than mob chanting and being beaten by cops...
Once again I'll mention this, since it seems so obvious and yet is rarely mentioned-- When you grant the state the power to control activities and moral decisions, you grant the possibility of a slim majority telling YOU what you can and cannot do.
The government has no business being in the marriage validation business. Especially if it is a business claimed by the religious as their own purview.
Mormon churches should all be adorned with this symbol BIG8TS
Non gay Californians need to step up and stand up for the rights of their brothers and sisters...
Sign the petition:
(70K signatures already)
http://www.mormonsstoleourrights.com/
Daivd Roberts #21
I cliked on your name and...wow. Not only are you a non-Mormon business owner in Utah, you are doing it in a very rural, very Mormon part of the state. It's not that big a deal to be non-Mormon in SLC, but it takes real persistence to not be a member of the ward in that part of the state.
@Ken. heh I'm feeling vaguely foolish now. O well, that's what I get for taking myself to seriously and not closing blockquote tags correctly.
In Post #40 Hank Fox, conveniently omits the paragraph in Wikipedia that follows his excerpt:
"Latter-day Saint apologists have reasoned that this line of argument commits the logical error of appeal to probability; they also point out that it is unlikely that Smith had access to material which would have referred to the then-small settlement of Moroni."[reference 8]
[8]"Prior to 1830, most maps and gazetteers referred to the Comoros as 'Comora' (but notably do not contain any mention of the name Moroni). The 1830 first edition of the Book of Mormon printed the name 'Cumorah' as 'Camorah'.
From a document linked in the article:
"Advocacy of the Comoros/Moroni link seems an act of desperation. It has not been proved that Joseph saw the names, or that any source available to him linked them. Furthermore, latching on to two names in an obscure reference work does nothing to explain the incredible complexity and internal consistency of the Book of Mormon."
http://en.fairmormon.org/Comoros_Islands_and_Moroni
To PZ Myers: If you really want to put your scientific and analytical skills to work against Mormonism, I invite you to take on the Book of Mormon.
Be forewarned, that in contrast to most religions, indicators of religious faith among Mormons increase with increased level of education. You are not going up against a bunch of "dumb-asses."
"The reason for this [positive correlation], I suggest, is to be found in the LDS view of education. LDS theology, while it places a strong emphasis upon education, places education into a larger religious perspective. This tends to galvanize Mormons against whatever religiously corrosive influences higher education might generate. In short, Latter-day Saint theology appears to negate the secularizing impact of education by sacralizing it and incorporating it into the total religious milieu."
http://byustudies.byu.edu/shop/pdfsrc/24.1Stott.pdf
If you maintain intellectual honesty in your analysis of the Book of Mormon, you will either become a Mormon or be forced to respectfully admit that in 1830, neither a 25-year-old farm laborer named Joseph Smith nor a committee of the top religious scholars of the day could have fabricated the Book of Mormon.
For a preliminary taste of the intellectual feast that awaits you, I suggest a web search on [Book of Mormon chiasmus].
Tracy Hall Jr
hthalljr'gmail'com
Nick Gott - I am indeed still here, ready to be dismissed as "batty" yet return love for hate. And I do know a bit about evolution, as you duly noted, having devoured Hank Hannegraff's "The FACE that Demonstrate the Farce of Evolution." I cannot recommend this work highly enough.
Gee, we've got a live one !
RevRight thinks we should thank his imaginary friend for the result on proposition 8, it's because of the time spent in prayers.
Hey RevRight, how does it work exactly, when you pray and the outcome is the one you hoped for, you thank God for intervening in your favour, but when it's not, what do you say ?
So should we also thank God for Obama's victory ?
#127
Comedy gold.
Why don't you tell us why. Could it be the thousands of edits since he made it all up?
Poe people...Poe.
subtle, but still poe
So, Tracy, though it's not contained in the Book of Mormon, how do you explain the fact that you think the Garden of Eden was in Missouri, yet there are overwhelming amounts of evidence that show humanity originated in Africa. If you maintain intellectual honesty in your analysis of this evidence, you will either stop being Mormon or be forced to respectfully admit that your beliefs are bullshit.
How can what the Mormons did possibly be legal? I just can't understand it. No taxpayer should have to be underwriting their campaign of hatred and intolerance.
The problem with only ridiculing the Mormons is that they absolutely relish in playing the part of the victim. You can already hear them shrieking about how they are being singled out for persecution. The sick irony of that is utterly lost on them.
RevRight
You mean you were serious about that nonsense? Honest to goodness, 100% no foolin', you kid us not, you actually mean it, truthfully earnest? So what you're saying is you'd rather people think you're an ignorant moron than a satirist.
Again, IANAL but see post #114
The Big Chimp is right, "Rev. Right" is poein' fer sure...and well done.
Tracy Hall Jr., on the other hand, appears to be sincerely batshit crazy. "Internal consistency"? Chiasmus? Seriously?
RevRight@128,
Nah, don't believe you! Tell you what, post a few links from other creobot fruitcakes to your site! Then I might start to take you seriously.
Rev,BDC,KoT,OM: RevRight is a Poe or the Mormon lady?
I'm pretty sure the former is.
Given their history as a racist, misogynist, and homophobic organisation, maybe they should just change their name to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Bigots so that everyone knows what they stand for.
A big hearty thank you to all those who supported Prop 8. It took courage to stand up the fear tactics the no on 8 crowd used but we won. We'll probably need to do this a few more times.
By the way, please keep up the protests at the various churches, it's helping the decent folks take a stronger stand.
For those who would like a pretty definitive list of the Mormon church's most weird beliefs, I've got a page for you:
http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm
As a Utahn and lapsed Mormon living in Salt Lake, I can tell you that a LOT of people here are angry at the Morg's support of this proposition. I was at the protest march on Friday night and I'd say the police's estimate of 2000 people is low. iirc, the police estimated 2000-5000 people and the news sources repeated the low end of that figure. Either way this was the largest civil rights march _ever_ in SLC, and it made an impression. Yes, Californians managed greater turnout, but that won't stop me from being proud of my fellow SLCers.
If you maintain intellectual honesty in your analysis of the Book of Mormon, you will either become a Mormon or be forced to respectfully admit that in 1830, neither a 25-year-old farm laborer named Joseph Smith nor a committee of the top religious scholars of the day could have fabricated the Book of Mormon.
of course, magic plates, white indians, magic crystals, white jesus in america..
how could that be made up?
FUCK mormoms
it was interesting to see that 70% of all black voters voted yes on prop 8 as well,
why would people that have gone through so much bigotry and hatred in the recent past, turn around and do the same thing?
religion
FUCK religion
Bite me; and shove your "courage."
Rev. Right.... or at least I'm pretty sure he is. His site is subtle but check out the page on evolution.
forced to respectfully admit that in 1830, neither a 25-year-old farm laborer professional conman named Joseph Smith - Some Mormon moron
Fixed that for you! No thanks necessary.
The problem with the Mormons' arguments is that they seem to work well when you're in a group of Mormons. "Look at the Book of Mormon, how could a poor farmer have written that on his own?" works pretty well when you're presenting to a crowd who already accepts that it's from god, but anyone else just says "Who cares how? It's still wrong."
Every religion with a holy book makes that bogus claim.
http://www.baptiststandard.com/2003/1_20/pages/mormons.html
Courage to deny a minority their rights? I think David Duke and Tom Metzger would also share your definition of courage.
I wonder if you'd be so quick to cheer if this was directed at say hispanic couples, Mrs. Sanchez.
And the way he uses the "fleeing the light" graphic under "apologetics". If it's not parody it deserves to be treated as though it were.
they should just change their name to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Bigots so that everyone knows what they stand for. - Emmet Caulfield
But how would this distinguish them from hundreds of other churches?
I feel truly humbled. The evident faith of Rev. Right really touched my soul, but even he is put to shade by Tracy Hall Jr.
I must bow my head, pray, and locate the closest mormon missionary at once.
Imagine how I'll feel after I've glanced the Holy Truth of the Book of Mormons...
Dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb-duuuumb.
"Look at the Book of Mormon, how could a poor farmer have written that on his own?"
And how could he have translated the golden plates without a Mark Super VII Quantum E-meter at his disposal?
Havoc @37 wrote
He had a chance to do this and he deferred. He could have said said 4 little words: "Vote No on 8," and being the squirmy and slippery politician that he is, he didn't. He cared more about his goal than he cares about integrity. For those fearing this will be another Carter presidency, fear not. Carter's problems stemmed from his belief that he could help everyone and he put those goals first and foremost. That behavior infuriated the 8th graders then inhabiting Congress. President-elect Obama cares about himself first and foremost, you're a distant second. He'll make sure the 6th graders currently in Congress will elect him class president by making sure their playground is expanded. You on the other hand, will be ignored, perhaps given a scrap or two from the table. Isn't oligarchy wonderful?
It's bizarre that a religion known for being out of step with the rest of the country on the issue of marriage, a place populated with polygamists and young girls treated as chattel and coaxed into child marriages, now wants to "preserve the sacred institution of marriage".
Is this marriage thing really necessary for anyone? I noticed the other ape species don't bother with it.
No, of course not. That is just plain silly. God didn't like Obama. He really disliked Sarah Palin more. Heaven has always had problems with quality control and defectives slip past all the time.
Mormons believe in conversions after death, on the grounds that all deserving people should get to heaven, but non-mormons can't get into heaven, which isn't fair for ancestors who died before John Smith wrote his bible and foreigners who haven't had a chance to hear about Mormonism. This explains their interest in geneaological records (to find ancestors so that you can hold a temple ceremony to induct them into the church, so that they can join you in heaven), and in going on missions.
So perhaps we should devise some religious ceremonies to convert living and dead mormons to some other religion. Perhaps something that worked semi-automatically, like Buddhist wind-driven prayer wheels.
It is true that the LDS church outlawed plural marriage a long time ago, and it's one of the several certain ways to get excommunicated. However, there is a very strong reluctance on the part of the church or the state government to challenge or condemn plural marriage in this state. And that's even when there is clear evidence of child abuse and welfare fraud (groups like the FLDS call their version of welfare fraud 'bleeding the beast'). Some of that reluctance is historical; the last time the state tried to move against polygamists it was an unmitigated disaster. There is more to it than that however, and I'm not sure I understand it fully. It's almost like people don't want anyone to take offical action in case the practice really is god's will. In the rare cases where the state does do something, they focus on the child abuse/welfare fraud actions (which I think is more appropriate, personally), and the prosecuter who takes on the case is risking his career - think Tom Green and Leavitt. John Krakauer wrote an excellent book on polygamy in Utah called "Under the Banner of Heaven", that I highly recommend, if you are interested in this topic.
As far as science standards in the state are concerned, it is true that they are refreshingly free of anti-evolution nonsense, but it is also true that the more militant-mainstream-Mormons who run the state legistlature periodically try to change those standards. So far they have been unsuccessful, and one of them lost his job this elelction (hot damn!!), but the impulse to meddle is still there.
Did you know that according to RevRight, most people become atheists, not because of a lack of evidence for God, but in order to watch Desperate Housewives ?
Poe or not Poe, that is the question...
On the bright side, here in Oregon we tossed a card-carrying Mormon, Gordon Smith, out of the US Senate.
#155
From the July 1 Sacramento Bee:
The mass mailer California's received quoted Obama and Biden out of context, featuring his picture and making it appear as if he had endorsed their position. The promoters of prop 8 were, of course, lying sacks of crap.
The Mormon PAC calling itself a picked-on church, good grief! More like a church with so much money it overpaid a LOT for this deal in arizona... why? To hide giving money to someone for, what, a ballot issue? Or...???
http://www.azcentral.com/community/pinal/articles/2008/11/02/20081102bi…
Mormons don't even do "one man + one woman" - they DO polygamy in their temples all the time, and support polygamy throughout Utah to this day!! Who are they to tell anyone else how to marry??
Wow. Mr. Hall, you have so misunderestimated the pull of the Book of Mormon.
While at Berkeley, I did a paper on the institution of polygamy in the Mormon church (as Joseph Smith "revealed" it). To do so, I had to go back to the far history of the church and Mr. Smith, including his early days as a "Gold prospector" in the hills of New York State. (As in, his early money-making schemes included having poor farmers pay him to search for gold with divining rods on their properties.)
If I ever needed a clue that he was a charlatan from his early days, that was it. The "revelation" of polygamy just cemented it. The only intelligence that Mr. Smith had was in the same realization that L. Ron Hubbard came to a century later: if you want to make money, start a religion.
So, it is, indeed, possible to review the Book of Mormon, and find that it is so full of deceit and lies that it is amazing that he ever found one single person to follow him into the desert, let alone whole crowds of them.
I've been assuming that they're just voting on gay marriage customs as a way to get revenge on everyone for voting on their marriage customs (polygamy). But of course the Mormons were completely wrong in attempting to redefine marriage to exclude gays whereas everyone else was completely right in attempting to redefine marriage to exclude polygamists, right?
Yet unmentioned is the role of the Mormon church in making the Boy Scouts of America safe for pedophiles. The LDS infiltrated the BSA administration, gradually strengthening the (previously unwritten) policy of ejecting gay and atheist boys.
Under suit for this discrimination (the federal charter granted to the organization was based on its being open to "all boys"), BSA lawyers appealed all the way to the Supreme Court, which agreed that BSA was a private religious organization with full right to discriminate.
And now, godly scoutmasters, like godly priests, need no vetting, or supervision.
[Note: In the U.S., Girl Scouts are not connected with BSA, and do not discriminate.]
Also, if we're going to talk about consistency in the Book of Mormon, let's talk about its consistency with the actual, observable world.
The BoM says that American Indians are actually descended from the Jews. One family of them sailed from Jerusalem to the American continent, to avoid the total destruction of Jerusalem. (Where's the evidence of this destruction, by the way?) Some of their descendants, the bad lot in fact, became the American Indians as seen in Joseph Smith's day.
If the Book of Mormon is taken to be literally true, which is what all conforming Mormons must believe, what do you make of the fact that DNA analysis places their ancestry in Asia instead of the Mideast? Evidence from several other scientific fields has been saying this for a long time, but the DNA evidence is conclusive. Are you among those who prefer to ignore this, or do you side with the apologists who claim that god changed their DNA just to fool us?
Nick Gotts @78:
Yeah, the whole religion sounds like it was made up as a parody, doesn't it? The book of "Ether," the angel "Moroni." A prophet named Joe Smith, his tale of the vanishing golden tablets, the babies' souls floating around in heaven waiting to jump into women's wombs...
People have to be "Moronis" to buy into any of that.
Religions commonly serve as conduits for bigotry of one sort.
The Puritans were driven out of England to America. Their crowning achievement was to hang 25 alleged witches and a few Quakers and Unitarians during a short lived theocracy.
The LDS were driven out of the midwest with J. Smith being lynched, among others. They turned around and massacred some heathens at Mountain Meadows as payback. These days, discrimination against pagans (anyone nonMormon in Utah) is ubiquitous and unremarked. And they have apparently targeted the gays as the all purpose outgroup.
I guess many or most people need someone to hate. The all time record must be the fundie Rapture Monkeys. They are all hoping god shows up and kills everyone, 6.7 billion people and destroys the earth. The body count could only get higher if we discover UFO type aliens. Then god can kill those too. And BTW, jesus loves us.
#162 revised: California's voters received
When mormon missionaries come to your door or approach you, politely tell them that you do not speak with representatives from hate groups, and then shut the door or walk away. Do not argue, etc just shut the door, the rebranding will drive them crazy.
A far as crazy things they do. How about the marriage ceremony in mormon temples. The participants wear a nutty outfit that resembles a bakers hat and white robes, topped off with a green apron around their waist. The kneel over an alter and grasp hands in a secret handshake as the sealer marries them.
Here is a link to mormon temple clothing. Give their local temple a call and ask them if they really dress like this and if this should be voted on. http://xmo.lege.net/packham/m1-sign.jpg
@Tracy (#127):
Doesn't the Book of Mormon have horses in the story, despite the fact horses weren't in the Americas until Euros brought them here? As I recall, the story also mentions steel (!) though it's supposed to take place a couple thousand years ago.
Recommended reading for you, Tracy: Under the Banner of Heaven, by Jon Krakauer
The first thing to understand is that 'marriage' is both a religious and a legal term. From the beginning, they were one and the same, but ever since church and state became separate we've had a single ceremony that has both religious and legal implications. This has become increasingly incompatible with things such as the sexual revolution, the gay movement, feminism, today's divorce rates and so on.
The best solution is to start using another term for legal marriages, and let the religous people keep using 'marriage' in the sense they prefer. If state and church is separate, the state has no say in church matters, except to enforce human rights. The term one adopts for legal marriages should of course be religious and gender free. That means, to marry legally, you go sign some papers. To marry religiously, you go to the church.
Child marriage? Well, in that case, they aren't that different from Muslims.
I'd say that's about right, Gustaf @ 173. I thought it was a tactical error back in 2004 or so when people simply rejected the "civil unions" idea even if it was (for all intents and purposes) the same as marriage. Why not let the state call it a civil union, and call it a marriage yourself? What diff does it make what the state calls it?
As I recall, back in 2004 polls indicated that most people in the US would have accepted "civil unions."
Jesus brought them over. Duh
The best solution is to start using another term for legal marriages, and let the religous people keep using 'marriage' in the sense they prefer.
I've advocated this position in the past, but it's a non-starter. There are entirely too many statutes on the books using the word marriage, so marriage it is. Civil unions are separate but equal; Jim Crow. This is a simple civil rights issue, and has been settled that way by the Court. This ACLU press release is a good primer on why the courts will declare 8 to be invalid. An excerpt:
I resigned my membership three years back--mostly because I didn't want my future children's names on the rolls of the church, but also because of their shitty stance historically on women's and minority rights. The LDS church took ten years after the civil rights movement to let blacks hold the priesthood--1978--one year after I was born. They also pulled similar shenanigans back in the day trying to get ERA bounced, and it worked then too. The leaders would tell the Relief Society (the women's auxiliary) to organise protests on the steps of various state capitals. They were very involved in making sure the ERA didn't pass, and for a long time, when I was little, I thought that the ERA must be something really heinous. Imagine my surprise as a young adult, when I investigated it and found that it was merely granting equality to everybody regardless of gender. Shocking for a wee Mormon kid.
While I generally agree with most of what I've read in this thread, and I think the LDS church's behaviour has been shameful, a few things have been said in thread which need clarifying:
Norman Doering said that LDS marriages were more about children and less about romantic love. Tsk, tsk, Norman. LDS marriages are REALLY about the chance to boink the only person you will ever be sanctioned to boink. ;) What else do you think would happen if you told people they can't have sex outside of marriage? They will get married to the first person who comes along who says yes. (I jest, but that's still partly true. By the time I was 22, a third of my graduating class in high school was married off.) In reality, most Mormons do marry for love and romance and all the same reason non-Mormons do.
Also, PZ's assertion about the polygamous marriages that happen in Utah conflates the FLDS church with the LDS, when in reality, the LDS has no control over the FLDS, and hasn't for over a century. The FLDS and their ilk broke off from the main branch of the church pretty much because the LDS rejected polygamy. It's a minor point, because historically the church was persecuted for their non-traditional marriages--incidentally, the other major cause of friction between early Mormons and the rest of the US was that the Mormons kept bloc-voting, as their Prophet told them too. Instead of learning one lesson--ie, don't try to tell your people to vote all one way--they ended up focusing on the persecution, as they no doubt will this go-round. The victim complex runs strong and deep, and they have a soft spot for people they view as martyrs to the cause. This makes them hard to engage rationally, because they are convinced that disagreement = persecution.
MoxieHart@79: Yes, there is a belief that if you are righteous, and sealed in a temple marriage, you will get to become like God and make planets. This actually relates to my own deconversion, since I was a rabid science fiction/fantasy nerd, and was all excited about the prospect of making planets. I planned my planet out, and was so excited that it spurred my interest in science. I reasons I would have to know a lot of science in order to create my planets, so in junior high and high school I took a lot of biology and geology courses with that in mind. I drew up pics of my continents, and monsters and creatures I wanted to populate my worlds with....and then one day I mentioned my world-building project to an ecclesiastical authority, who condescendingly laughed, patted me on the head, and said, "Oh, but you won't do that. Your husband will do that since he's the one with the Priesthood. You'll help him raise spirit children." Jaw drop. Sound of crickets. My brain screaming, "But! But! But! But!" So yeah....you get a planet. If you possess a penis.
Things Mormons hate:
+ The ACLU - because it keeps them from turning Utah into a complete theocracy
+ Planned Parenthood - because every spirit child needs an earthly body. (Nobody has been able to reconcile the idea that if God is up there sending down spirit children to bodies, why is he sending them to bodies where they are going to get aborted? And why would abortion be bad in that case, if he could just send the newly aborted soul back to another body??)
+ Environmentalism and Gun Control - because God gave us this world to be a steward over, and doncha know that being a steward means the right to shoot whatever you want. (Admittedly, the younger generations are much cooler about enviromentalism than the older generations.)
+ Feminism - Uppity women wanting to make their own planets instead of submitting to raising spirit children. What is this world coming to?
+ Democrats - Okay. There are some Mormon Dems. There were two in the entire congregation/ward I grew up in. And later, when they left the church, everybody said, "We should have known. He voted for Mondale." My mother thinks Hillary Clinton is practically akin to Adolph Hitler. (That is NOT an exaggeration.) It is nominally okay to be a Libertarian, but generally everybody in Utah County, where I grew up, leaned Republican.
+ Gay people, natch. Most Mormons will say shit like "Love the sinner, hate the sin," but those who do, probably don't know any gay people who are out to them. Or they will be like my dad, who worked with a few gay people, declared them to be among the nicest people he knew, and said it was a shame they couldn't give up their sin to be closer to God. I think the younger generation, once again, is a bit more chill about the gay movement than their parents were--I had a number of old classmates back in Utah who are still Mormon and who lobbied against 8--but sadly many still accept the prevailing church view, which is that homosexuality is a sin and gay marriage should be stopped.
Which brings us to today: Your mission, should you choose to accept it is to scan the list of Mormon donors to Prop 8 here: http://mormonsfor8.com/ and make a donation to the ACLU, Planned Parenthood, the Utah Democratic Party, the HRC, or NOW in their name. This will make the veins on their heads throb and their eyeballs implode. (I'm donating to Planned Parenthood in Monson's name.)
The future of the Mormon church: The Mormon church has changed before, and they will change their beliefs again. They will adapt....eventually...to the zeitgeist as they perceive it, but probably about ten-to-twenty years after wider mainstream acceptance. In the meantime, their ranks will suffer minor attrition, as people who take a few minutes to think about it realise the doctrine is contradictory and full of shit. I wish the rate of attrition was a little higher, because they'd notice quicker, but in the meantime, they drive out gays, women, people with different political views, and anybody who schisms doctrinally with the church over various issues. I don't think they'll lose enough people to implode as an organisation, but the more they lose, the more they'll try to follow the mainstream. Which means that their current doctrine is doomed, I think. They just don't know it yet.
Oh, and here's some ammo for Mormons who insist that their prophet has a direct line to God: Three Prophets back, Ezra Taft Benson was the leader of the Mormon church. He thought a great deal of the John Birch society and preached that the Civil Rights movement was Communist-inspired and that MLK had been trained by communists. Benson ALSO wrote a forward to a nasty piece of racist literature called The Black Hammer. As far as I know, he never recanted his beliefs before taking the reins of the church.
Cover of the Black Hammer: http://www.affirmation.org/images/covers/the_black_hammer.gif
History of ETB's racism, as documented by his grandson: http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon409.htm
When Mormons use the excuse that they are following the orders of their Prophet, ask them why God would allow a racist man to become head of their church. They will probably note that the prophet is still a man and occasionally makes mistakes. Ask them if the prophet then was mistaken, if it would be possible for the prophet now to be mistaken.
@173 and 175 -
I still think civil unions are a 'separate but equal' issue. I like the south park episode that dealt with that, where they were going to call gay marriage 'butt buddies' instead of civil unions. The only point to having more than one namre for more marriage is to keep teh gays separate from straight people, and I don't think that fits with everyone being equal.
Mormons seem to have one part of running a religion down pat: keep your people constantly under watch, don't let anyone have too much time to themselves to think things over on their own.
#127, For intellectual honesty in [an] analysis of the Book of Mormon, I defer to Mark Twain, from Roughing It - Chapter XVI.
Twain's introduction:
#123:
I would love to see California's gays and lesbians go on strike. Margaret Cho had a fantastic routine about all gay wedding planners/florists/caterers/beauticians refusing to work on those who oppose gay marriage. "If you can't get married, neither can I!"
Melissa Etheridge has stated that she will refuse to pay taxes until gay marriage is legalized. Good for her! If the government refuses to grant her the rights everyone else enjoys, then why should she pay the same taxes everyone else pays? I hope Ellen follows suit.
@179: I see your point. I'll have to reconsider my position on the whole civil-union idea.
@178: awesome list, epsilon.
Yeah, the whole religion sounds like it was made up as a parody, doesn't it?,/I> - Jeanette@168
Well, maybe it was! Smith was obviously a megalomaniac, so he may have enjoyed making his followers accept the most ludicrous tenets possible. In Russell Miller's biography of L. Ron Hubbard, Bare-Faced Messiah, there's an account of a lecture at which Hubbard told those in the audience wearing spectacles that they would no longer need them, and got hundreds of people to throw theirs away. According to the account, he found their credulity very amusing.
#172,
easy, they'll tell you that Joseph Smith chose words that meant something different in the New World than in the Old world, so that "horse" didn't refer to the species Equus caballus as we know it...
Don't worry, they have a ready made answer for everything, imagination has no limits !
So, they've got money, they'll always manage to try to cook something up, look they're now even trying to refute the claim about DNA studies that show that native Americans are descended from Asians :
http://mi.byu.edu/publications/insights/?vol=28&num=1&id=544
New Series Launched with Book on DNA Research
Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute, 2008
The more they try to find some evidence for their stupid book, the more ridiculous it becomes.
I had to skim towards the end, but I had a few comments from around the 50s - from an interview I heard from an ex-Mormon, the mainstream church does say polygamy is a no-no, but it is part of their "Doctrine and Covenants" (IIRC), and they do believe that once you have been "sealed" in marriage, even divorce and remarriage can't change that - after death, a serial divorcee is supposed to have all his wives in heaven - afterlife polygamy! Once you realize that the woman has no choice in this (even if she would rather spend her afterlife with her second husband, for example), it gets more disgusting than laughable. Even if it is a complete crock of shit, the misogyny is real. I did wonder what happened if the woman remarried another mormon - would she be split up in death, alternate who she serves, or what?
Regarding the actual number of individuals in the Mormon church, I had heard of their "conversion after death" plan, where they put someone's name in their books and consecrate them as Mormons after they have died (this is an issue with me since my brother is a Mormon, and if he thinks he'll sign me up after death as a loonie, he's mistaken - I know I'll be dead and beyond caring, but it's the principle of the thing), so they can say that the number of church members is higher than it actually is.
pixelfish @178:
That was an interesting post to read. Thank you.
I have to say I'm sorry that I said a while back that only morons could buy into that stuff. Having never been indoctrinated into religion (but was indoctrinated into conservative politics), I forget that it's different for people who were brain-washed into it from the time they were babies.
Although people who convert into that stuff as adults really do have to be morons.
(Oh, yeah, and in my last post I said it was gold tablets, when it was gold plates. Whatever.)
(And thanks to Emmett Caulfield for that formatting lesson.)
Something sacred to the Mormons? Grab a pair of Mormon underwear? :)
Or perhaps their Bible, translated from an "alien" language?
Tracy Hall Jr #127: "In Post #40 Hank Fox, conveniently omits the paragraph in Wikipedia that follows his excerpt ..."
Yeah, Tracey, I also "conveniently" omitted the entire Encyclopedia Brittanica, the text of Thomas Hardy's "Tess of the d'Urbervilles," and a few trillion other words.
I posted something that caught my eye, that was all. Don't be all "gotcha" -- it makes you look like the America-hating, gay agenda, baby-killing liberal media.
From Tracy Hall, Jr.'s wall o' text:
I can top that, Ms. Hall; I can show you a seven-book series that is both complex and self-consistent. If you maintain intellectual honesty in your reading of the Harry Potter series, you'll be forced to either take up witchcraft or, at the minimum, acknowledge that there is no plausible way that J.K. Rowling could simply have invented the whole thing.
Or, you might come to realize that "complexity" and "self-consistency" don't bar a written work from also being fictional.
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I voted YES on Prop 8. At my place of employment I work with many members of the LGBT community. I don't treat them any differently than anyone else. I don't consider them my enemies. They are my brothers and sisters, sons and daughters of God. When I voted for Prop 8 I voted to protect what I believe to be the divine institution of marriage, between a man and a woman. I didn't do it out of hatred nor coercion. I voted for what I believe to be right. Marriage does not belong to same-sex couples. It is not their right. We voted, it should be done.
Perhaps all of this energy and effort by the LGBT community and its supporters would be vastly more effective in broadening the rights of civil unions for same-sex couples rather than attempting to demonize and persecute the Church and its members. Or, is it just easier to single us out and start treating us as second class citizens? Maybe you should segregate us into ghettoes and tattoo a number on our bodies.
Say what you will, do what you will, my faith will not waver.
http://yes-on-prop8.blogspot.com/
As a Utahn and a former-Mormon, I think the Mormon Church has far too much power. I'll admit that I wasn't at the demonstration, and I regret it now. As for something to mock, I've always thought that the history of polygamy has been a well-kept secret by the Mormon Church. In my view, such historical facts as Joseph Smith's marrying other men's wives and his telling young girls that they wouldn't get to the highest heaven unless they married him need to be more widely-known. Also, Mormons have a particularly odious dogma about chastity (which, by the way, I think is a good ideal within reason), a dogma which has caused needless stress and pain to countless young people. This dogma is based on the following passage in the Book of Mormon:
To be fair, I haven't been active in the Mormon Church since the 1980s, and they may have lightened up since then, but I grew up hearing a lot of that kind of stuff.
You're welcome.
Nick Gotts wrote:
That is online here:
http://www.nots.org/
Great insights into how religion works occasionally show up.
DMS #172: "Doesn't the Book of Mormon have horses in the story, despite the fact horses weren't in the Americas until Euros brought them here?"
Horses originated in North America, according to scientists. So (gasp!) SCIENCE ACTUALLY PROVES THE BOOK OF MORMON!!!
I'm sure the next revision of the Book of Mormon will mention giant ground sloths, short-faced bears, and saber-toothed cats.
Wow. There is a whole lot of religious bigotry and intolerance being ejaculated onto the internet from people who claim to be above bigotry and intolerance. Imagine that! And they're spewing a bunch of lies! I guess when you're angry it's ok to be a hypocrite.
Cognitive dissonance at it's worst.
AlexT #191
Funny, I thought making people second class citizens was YOUR job.
Maybe you should segregate us into ghettoes and tattoo a number on our bodies.,/I> some Mormon moron
Nah, we'll limit ourselves to trying to persuade you not to be so stupid, hateful and bigoted.
Badger3k: To answer your question, there can be a cancellation of sealing for temple marriages, but they are particularly hard to obtain. Generally they will only be granted if the ex-spouse was excommunicated, or did something pretty heinous or criminal.
As you note, Mormon males will be able to be temple-sealed to their next spouse, while Mormon women will NOT be able to. In theory, if the husband died very young and there are no children, there is sometimes special dispensation for the woman to get sealed to a new husband, with the theory that God will sort it out in the next life.
I have a friend, btw, who is the biological daughter of her mother's second husband. He died young, so her mother married for a third time and my friend's stepfather raised her. But because her mother was never able to get a cancellation of sealing from her first husband, her children are sealed to him, and not their biological father or the man that raised them. I call that pretty f--ed up.
One of the things that drives me crazy about the Mormons trying to keep gays from getting married, is that they don't really recognise non-temple marriages. They sort of do, but they ALREADY think that anything other than a temple marriage is inferior. If a Mormon couple slips up before marriage, and for whatever reason, isn't "worthy" to enter the temple to get married--usually because they anticipated the wedding and boinked a few weeks/months early--then they get civilly married and the bishop or whoever performs that wedding reminds them that the non-temple wedding is for time only, and that they should go to the temple to get properly married as soon as they are able. (A year after their transgression, usually.) Mormons don't even think that STRAIGHT people's marriages count towards the afterlife unless you were sealed in the temple. You're only married for time (ie...until one of you drops dead) and not for eternity. So why it's so important for them to keep gays from getting married is a bit of a confusion for me, because those marriages wouldn't be equal to a temple marriage in the eyes of a Mormon. Trying to keep one class of people from having something you wouldn't participate in yourself...ie...non-temple marriage....is sour grapesy.
This is off topic and I apologize. But if neone is involved or knows someone who is involved with a 501(c)(3) that does any lobbying for progressive policies. Here's information on a grant that provides free access to a useful tool. Just trying to get it into the hands of someone who will use it.
http://100days.democracyinaction.org/
Um, no. You fail.
Support that statement.
"Marriage does not belong to same-sex couple"
Marriage does not belong to YOU or your religion! You twisted smiling nazi!
Dan wrote:
Define bigotry and intolerance.
Point out some lies.
Your accusations seem to be empty of facts.
I am a born and raised Utahan. I am not and have never been Mormon, but I have had to deal with all of their bullshit for the last 23 years. My new plan if and when missionaries come to my house next. I am going to tell them that I will listen to their crap only if they "lick my cat's bum hole." Just thought i would share.
Or, is it just easier to single us out and start treating us as second class citizens?,/I> - AlexT, Mormon moron
The hypocrisy, it flabbergasts!
AlexT,
this is quite unbelievable, now its the members of the religious communities, by far the majority in this country, who have denied basic rights to a minority purely based on their imaginary scriptures, who are whining about being persecuted ?
But have you not lost complete sense of decency ?
I'm getting the feeling that The Word Has Gone Out in Mormonville, and the righteous defenders are beginning to show up.
Welcome Mormon brothers! Visit your righteous indignation upon us! We thirst for your counsel! We wander confused and bereft, and need your healing words to mend our broken spirits!
Translation: I'm a bigoted arrogantly ignorant person and no amount of evidence could ever convince me of anything I don't want it to.
*accompanied by the traditional fingers in ears yelling LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA
Here's a ray of hope: that atheist girl on YouTube that P Z Myers has promoting was raised a Mormon. And she's in California.
http://www.youtube.com/user/gogreen18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn2cUR46400
A round of heartfelt applause for Pixelfish! Wow. Congratulations on your escape from Earthly hell.
******
Did anyone catch DMS's trap over Smith's visions of horses in America years before the Europeans re-introduced them?
Any sciencey guys/gals want to tackle the history of Eohippus through Equus in North America and the many Native American legends about the return of the equines?
Yahoo News:
Utah faces boycott after Mormon work for Prop 8
AlexT@191: Or, is it just easier to single us out and start treating us as second class citizens? Maybe you should segregate us into ghettoes and tattoo a number on our bodies.
You've got to be FUCKING KIDDING ME! Or is this blog full of pranksters today? In case you're actually serious:
You nuts are not the ones being singled out to be treated differently, you're the ones acting like Nazis who want to herd people into ghettos and tattoo numbers on them.
"It's not their right?" Our rights should be equal. If it's not their right, then that's an injustice should be corrected in our laws, not reinforced.
Hey-- loved the article! Most people have no idea how truly strange and delusional the mormon religion is. Mormons work hard to appear pro-family and wholesome.
I was raised in this religion ("born in the covenant" is the term they use). I was forced to attended church, Sunday-School, Seminary and every other imaginable mind-f***ing program the church provided. Finally, despite my objections, my parents insisted that I marry in the Salt Lake LDS temple. This was back in the late '80's when the mormons still practiced their super creepy "washing and annointing" ceremony that involved a lot of naked touching and where women promised to be "obedient" and subservient to their "priesthood" holding hubby. (I've since gotten some therapy to recover). I understand that sometime in the early '90's god told the church to change these "eternal truths" to something a bit more mainstream, but I was long gone by then. While I was cognizant at the time that my mormon upbringing was twisted and bizarre, it wasn't until the temple ceremony that I figured out I had been raised in a cult. A big, well-financed cult, but a cult nonetheless.
The mormon/LDS church, since it was invented, has always been on the wrong side of history. Their current bigotry against gays is no different than their prior doctrinal and institutional bigotry against African-Americans. (For sh*ts and giggles check out the LDS church's original Journal of Discources It's a little tough to find as the LDS church has gone to great pains to deep 6 it. The crazy sh*t the earlier mormon profits [sic. pun intended] spued will curl your hair).
The LDS church is all about money and appearance. Only when they are hit financially or when they appear incredibly ridiculous will they get a "revelation" and make long overdue changes.
I was only 13 yrs. old, but can recall that 1978 was a big year for revelations from god. After decades of preaching that African Americans were "inferior" and from "the seed of Cain," and must have been "less valiant in the preexistence," and "must never mix their seed" with whites because it was punishable by "death," blah, blah, it was the threat that BYU athletics might not be included in the NCAA, among other financial threats, that prompted the good news from god. African Americans were now totally OK. Go figure.
I'm a straight, caucasian, middle-aged stay-at-home mom with two children. I have one brother who is gay. He and his husband have adpopted a wonderful little girl. They are a beautiful family. It breaks my heart that the church we were raised in is such a narrow-minded, bullying organization. Both my brother and I formally resigned from the LDS church many years ago but if I could resign again, I would, just to protest the LDS church's involvment in prop 8. The church that was founded on polygamy is the last organization in the country that should be whining about preserving "traditional" marriage. It makes me crazy!
It's too slow but I'm willing to wager big that within 2 decades from now, the LDS church will receive another "revelation" from their god that gay are suddenly OK too. To bad the mormon church is always lagging behind the times.
I do believe that this time, and despite their clever, and oh-so-careful exploitation of current tax code exemption provisions, the LDS church has gone too far. They have pissed off the wrong people. The backlash will be hard and nasty.
Hmmm... maybe the LDS church will "reap what they sow" just like they preach. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch.
Three Prophets back, Ezra Taft Benson was the leader of the Mormon church. He thought a great deal of the John Birch society and preached that the Civil Rights movement was Communist-inspired and that MLK had been trained by communists.
Interesting. I've read a pamphlet by Benson called The Proper Role of Government, written a few years after he served as Secretary of Agriculture, in which he expounded his economic views (which were laissez-faire capitalist, and very sensible on the whole). I knew he was very anti-communist. But reading the information by his grandson to which you linked, it really seems like his hostility to MLK and the civil rights movement was based on paranoia about communism, rather than dislike of African-Americans per se. And don't forget that he was the product of a much older generation, and probably had little, if any, first-hand contact during his life with African-American communities in the segregated parts of the country.
(Don't get me wrong. I am not a Mormon - having examined the LDS faith quite extensively, and concluded that there's little or no truth to it - and I'm not trying to argue that Benson's religious beliefs were right or inspired by God. But I would be hesitant to condemn him as a bad human being or a vile racist. He did have some sensible views on the role of government in the economy.)
AlexT #191 -- a mealy-mouthed apologetic for your bigotry, rich in self-deception, devoid of basic fairness and decency.
Dan #196 -- word salad, devoid of meaningful content.
In this economy there are PLENTY of other places that would just love to have their money.
Shorter Walton@215,
OK, Benson opposed civil rights for blacks, favoured persecuting communists, and had insane religious beliefs, but he was a supporter of laissez-faire capitalism, so he's one of the good guys.
Yet you found one that you did?
Oh please. PLEASE don't turn this fucking thread into another Libertarian chamber pot.
"YOU ARE PERSECUTING US FOR OUR BELIEFS YOU GODLESS MEANIES!" "YOU ARE RIDICULING US FOR BELIEVING IN WHAT IS PROVEN BY OUR HOLY TEXTS" "YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO JUDGE OUR INTOLERANCE YOU INTOLERANT HEATHENS!"
Oh, the irony of it all.
I'm afraid Walton has monomania. We keep trying to widen his horizons, but he just can't seem to get away from his mania. A few of the ladies were even chipping in to get him a hooker to broaden his outlook on life. He reminds me of radicals during my undergraduate days, minus the pot.
Even shorter:
Shut the fuck up Walton!
Poor, poor credulous Dan. What a Cretin... what? What do you mean I've pissed off people from Crete?!!
Walton.
Typical of cults. God's plans as revealed by older men always seem to be the same. God wants old alpha males to have lots of sex with lots of teen age girls.
And oh yeah, I almost forgot. Make sure you send them lots of money along with your daughters.
Walton: When a man (Ezra Taft Benson) writes a forward praising a book called THE BLACK HAMMER: A STUDY OF BLACK POWER, RED INFLUENCE AND WHITE ALTERNATIVES, do you think it's a chicken-and-egg question as to whether it matters that his racism arose from his paranoia about communism? Does it matter that he was economically sound or accomplished in other areas? He WAS a member of the Council of the Twelve (the LDS church's highest ruling body) during the Civil Rights Era, and therefore instrumental in perpetuating racism inside the church. He used his position inside the church on a regular basis to promote his political beliefs. That's problematic enough, but my point was: Mormons REALLY believe that their prophet is nigh-infallible, and that he speaks for God. This is a guy that long claimed guidance from God....and was wrong wrong wrong about the blacks. With that kind of history, why would Mormons assume that Thomas S. Monson is speaking infallibly about gays and lesbians getting married? The Mormon God's (or realistically, that of his self-proclaimed mouthpieces) track record in civil rights is awfully suspect.
Also, you say you would hesitate to call him a vile racist. How 'bout plain ol' racist? Seriously, there were contemporaries of his, even inside the church, who had the SAME exposure to the black population, and rejected many of the notions that he espoused. The man was racist. End of story.
AlexT#191 sayd, "...I voted to protect what I believe to be the divine institution of marriage, between a man and a woman. I didn't do it out of hatred nor coercion. I voted for what I believe to be right. Marriage does not belong to same-sex couples. It is not their right."
You are an unconscionable equivocator. That vote of yours and your justification for it clearly indicates hatred. Yes, HATE: It's prejudicial, it's sanctimoniously exclusionary, it's ignorant, self-serving, intolerant, obnoxious, and the claim of virtuous conviction as a shield behind which you cower to avoid the name of hatred, cowardly.
You add, "Maybe you should segregate us into ghettoes and tattoo a number on our bodies. Say what you will, do what you will, my faith will not waver."
So what have you accomplished? All you have managed to do is act on your impulse to deny that same-sex couples cannot IN YOUR VIEW form a union under the grace of what you are pleased to identify as the source of all love. In your own way of thinking, you cannot even accomodate the possibility that you have ostracized a significant population with precisely the same charge you level against us.
I don't give a shit whether your faith, befouled as it is by mere tradition rather than any logical principle, will waver or not. All that indicates, buster, is that you have yet another strike against you: a pathological incapacity to change, which is the form and delight of every hater.
I don't suppose shame is at all possible in anybody who declares they will not waver from their faith. That's fixed, isn't it? No recourse for correction, none for humiliation, none for repentance.
I am a Mormon, always have been, always will be. Why? Because I was born into the religion (and at the age of accountability, 8 years old, I "chose" to become a member of the church). I went through the "resignation" dance 2 years ago (as I felt a moral obligation to update their records to reflect my apostasy), but I'm still a Mormon. My name is still on their record books, ostensibly with the word "resigned" stamped on there somewhere.
Sadly, I find it difficult to have a sense of humor about this. Most of my family is still clinging to the idea that being a bigot will earn them the right to create their own planets some day, so I can't help but feel partially responsible for the church's gathering political momentum. Maybe I'll chronicle my days as a fundamentalist Christian and share them here.. If I get around to it. No matter how angry I become, it still doesn't seem to drive useful action.
Now that I've vented, I'll try to give you some assistance in the cause of enraging Mormons. Don't make fun of Joseph Smith or say that they worship him. They'll just laugh at you and this laughter will minimize the insult you cause them by whatever else you say. Instead, channel Socrates. If you can put up with the repeated loops around the "It's a matter of faith, it's how I feel, God says it, ..." circle, then your repeated insistence on consistency and evidence will earn you a punch in the face. I wish you luck in this most holy endeavor.
If you gave Walton a pot, he'd immediately fill it up with a pantload of libertarian diarrhoea.
Those miserable pieces of shit are bitter because their myths were specific enough to be falsified. They were wrong on migration to the new world. They were wrong about genetics. They were wrong about the existence of "Reformed Egyptian". They were wrong on their original definition of marriage, yet we are supposed to give even a second's thought to their current conception of marriage?
Fuck that.
AlexT,
Last time I remember it was the large Christian Aryan majority who put the minorities (Jews, Roma, Homosexuals, ...) in those ghettos and who tatooed numbers on their body.
Oh but I foget, as all Mormons, you guys rewrite history at your convenience, so now in the USA the risk could be that it's the minorities (Atheists, Homosexuals, secular folks...) who will put the large Christian majority into ghettos and tatoo their bodies...
Just a question, do you actually use your brain when you write such fantastic nonsense, or do you just copy and paste it from somewhere ?
I very much disagreed with the mormon church's approach to (and support for) prop 8.
that said, Prop 8 didn't pass because of mormon interference. It passed because of record voting by Blacks and Hispanic Americans. I can't remember the numbers for Hispanic voters, but blacks voted 80% in favor of Prop 8, so you can thank a popular demo presidential candidate (who of course did not speak out against prop 8 in any real meaningful way).
What is laughable is that there are Catholics and Protestants who think that Mormonism is entirely ridiculous, just as Mormons think that Catholicism would be laughable if the Catholics hadn't instituted there own pogrom for Mormons in the mid 1800's. Evangelical Protestants think everyone else is deluded and that Mormonism is a silly cult. This sect hates that sect, this demonination refutes that denomination; teach as irrational and delusional as the other; but they all pretend to be in harmony against anyone who points out that religion is irrational and the existence of an intervening God is highly improbable.
Laissez-faire and sensible is an oxymoron.
Benson wasn't an anti-Communist, he was a far-right, white supremacist extremist. His support of the John Birch Society and his eagerness to run as George Wallace's vice-president are ample evidence of this.
Just as a note for non-Americans and those too young to remember the John Birch Society, in the late 1950s they claimed that Dwight Eisenhower was a "knowing tool of the Communists."
Prop 8 didn't pass because of mormon interference. It passed because of record voting by Blacks and Hispanic Americans.
These communities did not vote the way they did because they were Black or Hispanic, but because these communities are readily persuaded by the religious communities which they comprise. Mormon interference came in the form of tens of millions of dollars, matched by Catholic Knights of Columbus, who flooded the airwaves as if nothing else mattered, in a deceptive ad that characterized the issue as preventing public schools from being forced by the state to teach your children to be gay, and would force all churches to marry gay couples.
So does anyone actually know what the mormons hold sacred?
I feel safe to assume the book of mormon would be one thing. How about cursing their president? Ideas anyone?
Just south of Idaho Falls, Idaho there's a large billboard showing a male Mormon missionary ecstatic over saving money at missionarymall.org. No, no, no, you don't get to put "mall" and ".org" in the same URL, do you? The question of tax-free status should be more closely examined. It may be technically legal to fund Prop 8 propaganda, but what about the "mall" sales, the NPR station at BYUI that bumps NPR news shows to broadcast LDS conferences (not to mention "Devotionals" that even bumped 9/11 news)? Is it legal that the most basic cable TV package available always includes the Mormon channel, forcing all cable subscribers to support the broadcast? And what about the control by the LDS Church of public space in Salt Lake City? Money used to fund anti-gay legislation is just part of a much bigger picture.
Oh, forgot to mention: upthread somebody brought up the Boycott Utah plan proposed by John Aravasois (sp?) and I'd actually like to say that I think that's a strategic misstep. First of all, Utah =/= Mormon. Salt Lake City itself is leaning blue more and more, and the whole state has a fairly large non-Mormon minority. Of the 65-70 percent of Utah's population that is Mormon, only about half of that is active in the Church--the rest being lapsed, or Easter Mormons. (Jack Mormons is the popular phrase.) And even of all those Mormons, plenty (particularly among my generation) still opposed Prop 8. Furthermore, the first event and industries targeted by the Boycott Utah idea were Sundance Film Festival (run by Robert Redford--not a Mormon!) and the tourism industry (again a high incidence of non-Mormons working here). Temple Square is free, and the Mormon church makes no money directly off of the tourism to the main tourist attraction in downtown SLC (although they do make money off of the malls they own near that tourist attraction.) But if the GLBT groups and their supporters take their tourism dollars and vacate the state, they are A) removing their presence and further insulating Mormons from Real Live Gay People (which would actually be a desired outcome to Mormon minds) and B) harming the Utahns who didn't support prop 8--a proposition they couldn't vote against because they didn't actually live in the state which voted it in.
(Why not boycott California, the state that actually voted for this piece of crap? Because it would harm the gays and lesbians who already live there? Same logic holds true for Utah.)
What I DID LIKE was seeing the protests at the Mormon temple in LA and the wonderful 3000+ crowd in SLC. I think Mormons need to be exposed to more gay people, and see the broad spectrum of the people whose rights they are trying to take away. As a wee tyke, it was that broadening of experience that led me to reject the idea that homosexuality was a sin, but without people leading the way and exposing me to the world, I could have remained in that culture bubble a long time. Boycotting Utah won't puncture that culture bubble, I don't think. Instead it will merely make the Utah Mormons circle the wagons and become even more insular. I think it would be much more delicious to overwhelm Utah with GLBT folk. More practical in the long run, too.
If people still got the taste of boycott in their mouths, boycott individual businesses owned by Mormons. Start with the Marriot chain of hotels, and perhaps don't attend basketball games where the Utah Jazz play, since they are owned by Larry H. Miller, a prominent Mormon. (Larry H. Miller had Brokeback Mountain pulled from a chain of multiplexes he owned in Utah, incidentally.)
A bit tangential... Crested Butte CO has very good skiing too. And is just a few miles south of the Rocky Mountain Biological Laboratory (RMBL). So go there instead and mention that you heard about it because of RMBL.
Hell, go do field work a RMBL in the summer too. For you undergrads, there are always interesting projects there looking for volunteers.
Uh oh. Desecration 2.0, anyone?
Walter Scott @ #229:
"Age of accountability", my ass. This was a pretty large part of my deconversion. Seriously who, at age 8, can even pretend to be ready to decide on something as momentous as The Fate Of Their Everlasting Soul? I wasn't allowed to choose my own bedtime at that age.
The older I get, the more this particular practice bothers me.
Oh no I get it ! It's the Atheists and the homosexuals, and probably the socialists (I always seem to forget about THOSE ones, you know, the "leftists", the friends of terrorists, Palestinians and Baby Killers) who are gonna unite and put the Mormons in ghettos and tatoo their bodies. And maybe the blacks and the muslims might join them actually.
That's it, and of course the other fundie Evangelicals, cathos and Southern Baptists of all sorts will just keep nice and quiet and pray to God that nothing of the sort happens to them.
Yep, that seems like the kind of fantasy-world scenario Mormons might be thinking of for the future, and telling their children of course !
Patricia@237: You ask what Mormons hold sacred. Well, the temples are considered sacred. (Although I don't advocate doing anything to them, as they are private property. I actually like some of the early temples, such as the Cardston Alberta temple for its an art deco architectural style, and the Manti Utah temple for its nifty unsupported spiral staircases and the murals that were painted by my Mormon ancestor.) The Book of Mormon is also considered pretty sacred, and that's more fair game, because anybody can purchase or be given a copy. Trent Reznor once destroyed a Book of Mormon onstage at a concert--or so the legend in Utah goes--and became the topic of many a church denunciation about the evils of modern music. (I felt so guilty for liking Nine Inch Nails at the time.)
Mormons really love Joseph Smith and hate it when people denigrate him. (But as Walter Scott, I think it was, noted above: if you say that Mormons worship him, they will laugh at you. In fact, Mormons are inured to a lot of the weird old slanders. My siblings and I used to joke about our Mormon horns.)
You don't really need to attack any of the Mormon sacred symbols to get a rise out of them though, if that's what you're looking for. You can piss them off merely by telling them about how Joseph Smith started boinking Fanny Alger BEFORE Emma gave her go ahead, or how he probably deserved to be in jail because he had a printing press destroyed. Or you can ask about the number of changes to the Book of Mormon. Or point out that before Brigham Young became president, Joe baptised black people and let Eliza R. Snow preach. Mostly though, you can look them straight in the eye and say, "I believe that everybody should be equal under the law and gays should be allowed to get married." Obviously, it makes the non-compassionate or non-thoughtful Mormons implode.
If you maintain intellectual honesty in your analysis of the Book of Mormon, you will either become a Mormon or be forced to respectfully admit that in 1830, neither a 25-year-old farm laborer named Joseph Smith nor a committee of the top religious scholars of the day could have fabricated the Book of Mormon.
Anyone who was familiar with the King James Bible could have made it up. Same flow of language, same kinds of stories.
Today's topic: Joseph Smith invented fanfiction. Discuss.
Here's the thing about Mormons (and all fundamentalists) - no matter what anyone does, they'll still think they're right. (Of course, everybody here already knows that, I just thought it bore repeating.)
Protest, boycott - it's all only further proof of their elite position among God's children. (And protests, by the way, are a sign of immaturity, and they're just wasting their time standing up against injustice.) Go to the Deseret News website and read the comments on some of the Prop. 8 protest stories. Many of the LDS commentators say things like "God told us his people would be persecuted" and "it looks like Satan really hates our righteousness" and, my favorite: "If Prop. 8 had passed, do you think Mormons would be out protesting? - I think not!" And other wonderful things like that. There's no winning.
pixelfish @ #239 is exactly right: The largest concentration of non-Mormons you'll find in Utah will be at the ski resorts and other tourist areas where they'll be doing things like (gasp) serving drinks.
A humorous aside:
Many restaurants in Provo are staffed by church members who rarely, if ever, find themselves serving alcoholic drinks. My brother once had his beer served in a mug full of ice.
@117
Yeah, but it wasn't theirs to sell in the first place.
Natural Cynic
"Yeah, but it wasn't theirs to sell in the first place."
Careful there cowboy.
Now that the mormons have told me I'm a jew, the last thing you want is another dispute over what lands we have a right to.
Would a mormon boss give me all the jewish hollidays off?
I can prove a pretty substantial cherokee heritage.
Oh my goodness!! I'm also german. This opens doors to a whole new level of self loathing.
I really hate to jump the the defense of religion but what is wrong with polygamy so long as everyone involved is a consenting adult? And the bit about young girls treated as chattel and coaxed into child marriages is a very small fundamentalist group that is denounced by the regular Mormon church.
Anyway something that is sacred is family trees. Mormons believe that ancestors cannot go to heaven until their name has been recorded in a family tree. Ancestry.com is run by the Mormon church.
"Oh no I get it ! It's the Atheists and the homosexuals, and probably the socialists (I always seem to forget about THOSE ones, you know, the "leftists", the friends of terrorists, Palestinians and Baby Killers) who are gonna unite and put the Mormons in ghettos and tatoo their bodies"
Which is about what half the people here would like to happen.
Me, I would rather all Churches and cults have their tax exempt status revoked.
Not going to happen.
Triglav save us, no Hank! So far we've had to wade through onslaughts of stupid from pathological Protestants, berzerk Baptists, crazed Catholics, and now you welcome throngs of maniacal Mormons*? Oh, won't somebody somewhere think of the children!
In the interest of brevity, let me save them the time by presenting the only arguments that are generally ever made by theists coming here to defend their faith:
1. A selective sampling of minutiae from my Sacred Holy Text™ shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's the actual Word of God, unlike all the other Sacred Holy Texts™ ostensibly authored by the same God held by those of different faiths who can make the same case using selective samples of minutiae from their books;
2. Selective samples of minutiae that conflict with my claim in 1. are: metaphors/redactions/later edits/misinterpretations due to lack of faith/Shut up! and your provision of them merely shows how little you understand of the mysterious and completely scientific art of apologetics/snake oil salesmanship;
3. We're holier than everyone else (but please don't investigate the activities of our leaders or laypeople which will show that, by and large, they're no better or worse than anyone else. This is because: God gave us free will/Satan still has the power to dupe us/they aren't True Followers™/Shut up! Arguments against atheism using the strawmen of Hitler and Stalin still hold though.);
4. The vast majority of people believe in some sort of God, therefore atheists are the only stupid ones and incidentally, all those religious people are wrong unless they share my faith, but I'll use them for now as they're needed to make my point;
5. HITLER + STALIN!!!
6. Atheists just want to lock us up because: they can't abide our superior morality/are mad at their dads & God/love abortion/are in league with Satan/are probably witches and pagans/are going to burn in hell!/are being used, like Judas, as God's fall guys to fulfill the prophesy of persecution† (see 7.);
7. God told us we'd be tested like this therefore your persecution of us only proves we're right‡;
8. Atheists are sad and have no morals, and all us religious people agree that if they'd just go away and leave all of us God-fearing fellow-man-loving faithful alone we could go back to the business of killing each other based on the aforementioned minutiae;
9. Did I mention HITLER + STALIN!!!?
10. You're just lucky that we're not Muslim. Ooh, then you wouldn't be saying such nasty things. Then again, I guess that's just the price one pays for being tolerant of heathens and heretics, thanks to this nation's ancient widespread Christian ideals of free speech (note: please do not actually seek out and fail to find examples of ancient widespread Christian support of free speech. That would be rude);
11. This country is founded on Christian principles (see note about rudeness in 8.), so if you're not one, get out! Alternatively, separation of church and state implies freedom of religion, not freedom from religion, so pick a god and start prayin'. (The FSM doesn't count. It has to be a real religion, indicated by some Sacred Holy Text™ minutiae that justifies our disenfranchisement of one or more groups. Women and darkies§ would be a good start);
12. Ladies and Gentlemen, once again I present HITLER + STALIN!!!
I apologise if I missed the argument that definitively proves your religion and thus invalidates all others, but there's only so much time on a Sunday and I've got my family, friends, and other members of my community to interact in positive and meaningful ways with.
*Oddly enough, though PZ hasn't been shy on the subject, we haven't yet been inundated by maddened Muslims seeking to defend their faith. Could it be they're cooking up something even worse than trolling? Just in case: To arms, Christen Brethren!
† This makes God mysterious, not merely a sadistic asshole.
‡ This demonstrates God's only bit of prescience so far: why bother authoritatively authoring a holy book impervious to forgery by charlatans when you can encourage your followers to act like douchebags in every conceivable way 'predicting' that they'll be disliked for it? Gee, thanks Magic 8-Ball!
§ This is for the benefit of any Hindus present, whose religious entrenchment of the caste system has discriminated against the darker descendants of the Indus Valley inhabitants to the benefit of the lighter Aryan descendants.
Nothing. But if you look at the FLDS polygamists, they are rife with abuse and incest among other things.
That's ridiculous and you know it.
fact horses weren't in the Americas until Euros brought them here?
IIRC, there were horses in North America long before that, but they had been extinct for some ten thousand years or so before the Spanish re-introduced them.
-jcr
Wait. Didn't you just say in an earlier post that atheists are more patient and polite?
Or were you being ironic?
What are you, suicidal?
Even intelligent people can be idiotic about at least one thing, including religion, if they are brainwashed enough.
If you are going to outright lie, try to do it about something not so blatantly obvious!
For what it's worth, my personal experience of succesful religious fundie deconversion (and I'm proud to have deconverted a few of them amongst some close friends and relatives), is that whatever the religion, it makes no sense to start by attacking their myths, sacred scriptures, ridiculous traditions, miracles and other fairy tales.
What's valid for Mormons is valid for Cathos, and Baptists and Muslims etc...
The only way that works, IMHO, if one has the patience and the time, and provided the people one is trying to deconvert have a minimum of trust in you, is the hard way, the scientific way.
It's only once they understand that one can explain the complexity of nature without the need for God, and that we observe is what is to be expected from a universe without a God, and most importantly why God cannot be the answer of the question how could something come from nothing It's only once people have understood why some of their most basic intuitions about nature and what is natural are actually wrong and why they correspond to the same wrong basic intuitions that were vehicled by the primitive thinkers that were the writers of the sacred scriptures, then only it becomes easy to attack the myths and the fairy tales. Sometimes it's not even necessary, the rest just comes crumbling down all by itself.
IF THERE ARE HORSES WHY ARE THERE STILL MORMONS
or something like that
Last time I remember it was the large Christian Aryan majority who put the minorities (Jews, Roma, Homosexuals, ...) in those ghettos and who tatooed numbers on their body.
The nazis thought they were Aryans, but they were mistaken. Aryans mostly live in Iran, Pakistan, and India.
-jcr
Many of the FLDS girls involved in these marriages could barely be considered consenting and definitely aren't adults. One of the examples to come out of the whole mess in Texas was an arranged marriage between a 54 year old man and a 14 year old girl.
You want something Heretical? Name the secret tokens and signs in the temple ceremony. Get some of their "Secret Underwear" and threaten to dispose of it without cutting out the "Holy Marks". There's four of them, three on the garment top, on one the garment bottom. Show all the marks on your website.
You want to read lots of excellent posts against the practices and beliefs of the church? Click on my name, check out my blog.
I was an active mormon until 2007, and have now become thoroughly disillusioned with mormonism and spirituality in general. I proudly wear an atheist "A" on my hat everywhere I go.
They could probably argue that you had to have a unbroken maternal line.
Could you once have a post where you don't come off like a total moron?
There is a time for patience and politeness and a time for calling a spade a spade.
Joe the Wanderer #238. All those things you cite are directly attributable to junior's "Faith-Based Initiative".
Not only did that imbecile's handlers and the Religiously Righteous Republicans sneer at the Constitutional Ammendment on the separation of church and state, they shamelessly handed them even broader powers and influence over the government by distributing to petitioners government money acquired from taxpayers.
Where do you suppose the extra cost of "spreading the word" in the ways you describe came from?
Benson wasn't an anti-Communist, he was a far-right, white supremacist extremist. His support of the John Birch Society and his eagerness to run as George Wallace's vice-president are ample evidence of this.
Just as a note for non-Americans and those too young to remember the John Birch Society, in the late 1950s they claimed that Dwight Eisenhower was a "knowing tool of the Communists."
But Benson served as Eisenhower's Secretary of Agriculture (in fact, he was Eisenhower's longest-serving cabinet member, IIRC).
See, I told you so. Bet you there's at least 100 million fundies in America like Eric Atkinson or AlexT who actually BELIEVE in the kind of fantasy story #243.
Atheists, Homosexuals and Socialists Unite ! We have nothing to lose by trying to put fundies in ghettos !
About the whole horses thing: Some of the apologists suggest that instead of "Horse" they meant "Tapir", I shit you not. It seems that all of apologetics can boil down to: "If we define every word to mean something else entirely, this can be read literally."
Somehow the stories of armies riding into battle on battle-tapirs or Moroni fleeing the Lamanites on his trusty tapir don't have quite the same ring to them.
Since my skin gets darker in the summer and lighter in the winter, does that mean mormons would say that I'm more sinful in the summer?
I certainly take the lords name in vain more often in the winter.
examples:
"God damn it's fucking cold out here!"
"Jesus Christ! What's with all this God damned ice on my windsheild?"
Tunnels:
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1888073
You should all read this, if you're currently convinced that black turnout is responsible for the prop 8 win for the bigots.
Quick version: exit polls statistically very screwed up; not enough blacks in Cali anyway; easy racist answer to complex question.
I could not understand why the Mormons pumped funding into Prop. 8 rather than Prop. 4 (which has been on the ballot three times now). Maybe postponing a marginal percentage of the "murders" is just not as good as banning all same-sex marriages, but I would argue differently, if I were so certain about when life begins. Some of them picketed on the corner near our university, so I had a chance to ask them. They did not offer any good answers.
Just as a note for non-Americans and those too young to remember the John Birch Society, in the late 1950s they claimed that Dwight Eisenhower was a "knowing tool of the Communists." 'Tis Himself
Well of course he was! Why else would he have dissed the military -industrial complex?
Walton,
If I were polite, I'd ask "and your point is?" But since I'm feeling snarky towards you, I'll respond: "So fucking what?"
I know you at least glanced at Steve Benson's discussion of his grandfather. Steve described his grandfather as both a radical right-winger and a racist and gave examples to support both contentions. Especially since Steve knew Ezra Taft, I'm willing to believe that Steve knows what he's talking about.
Patricia #237: "So does anyone actually know what the mormons hold sacred? I feel safe to assume the book of mormon would be one thing. How about cursing their president? Ideas anyone?"
You aren't looking nearly deeply enough. Mormons hold nothing whatsoever sacred but Mormons. This is the essential and fully-sufficient case with adherents of any religion: they are all traditions built first and foremost around personal salvation, personal interests, and personal gratification, and all the selfishness that implies.
For some strange reason we tend to think seminars on self-improvement are a new phenomenon, barely a generation old. Rubbish! It's the oldest and worst joke in the history of civilization.
I have to say, this has been one of the funniest threads I have read in a while.
Since my skin gets darker in the summer and lighter in the winter, does that mean mormons would say that I'm more sinful in the summer?
Isn't everybody? I mean, girls in bikinis are a powerful inducement, I must say.
-jcr
"See, I told you so. Bet you there's at least 100 million fundies in America like Eric Atkinson or AlexT who actually BELIEVE in the kind of fantasy story #243."
Man. Talk about missing the point.
Or intellectual dishonesty.
BTW Eric is not a fundie.
This is off-topic but interesting, I think.
Billy Graham, that wizened shamen to five presidents at least, has said that he won't be counseling our new president because Obama's views on abortion aren't in line with Xian teachings.
Billy, Billy, Billy. Isn't the whole intent of your "counsel" to steer the wayward onto the path of truth and righteousness? Aren't you shirking your Xian duty by not at least trying to show Obama the error of his beliefs? Does this mean that those many hours you spent on long walks with presidents from Eisenhower on down were wasted time since their views were already in accord with yours?
Preaching to the choir may be good for the ego but it sure in hell doesn't change any minds now does it?
What was your point then ?
He sure does write like one.
I am sooo sending some garmies (never worn) and my full temple garb. I hope PZ was serious about the desecration. It needs some wider publicity among the general population. Mormons have been trying to mainstream their public image for years, but the fact is that temple stuff is downright bizarre.
I'll try to mock the mormons more but I'm concentrating a lot on Scientology right now.
I'd send you what they consider sacred, but there's no point desecrating perfectly good money.
Also, extreme mormon trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXOh4g_FLIM&feature=related is worth a watch.
Well, as en ex-Mormon I know that they are especially touchy about the Book of Mormon, which purports to be a history of the pre-Colombian peoples of the Americas, who supposedly arrived by boat from the the Holy Land around 600BC. The dominant tribe was called the Lamanites and leaders of the chirch refer to the Native Americans, indigenous tribes of South and Central American and Polynesians as Lamanites. In other words, all of these people are descended from Hebrew tribes, right? Wrong - of course. Extensive DNA testing of thousands of native Americans (in North, Central and South American, as well as in the Polynesian islands) has established that none of them are of Middle Eastern origin. Instead, they came across the Bering Strait or from what is now known as Taiwan.
Case closed. Plus, there is absolutely no archaeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon.
My favorite bit about the Mormon church seems to be rarely brought up, I don't know why. It's Joseph Smith's "I can translate Ancient Egyptian, really" story.
Synopsis: Actually authentic papyri bought by Joseph Smith, who claims he can translate them - before scholars had deciphered hieroglyphics. Translates them as "The Book of Abraham." Scrolls assumed lost in fire. Scrolls show up in 1966, Mormons rejoice to have proof that their prophet Joe had divine powers, until the actual translation showed no correlation between what Joseph Smith "translate" and what they actually said. Pretty good article here.
Though I note that, entertainingly, it seems to be on a Xtian apologetics site showing how Mormonism can be shown to be false, unlike Christianity, which is based on reality. I am not to be held responsible for the breakage of irony meters when reading the first two paragraphs on the page to which this link connects.
Man. Talk about missing the point. Or intellectual dishonesty. - Eric Atkinson
Why would we, when we have a world-class practitioner of both - yourself - to do it?
Best Mormon ridicule ever:
Start posting pictures of magical Mormon underwear with skidmarks.
Pretty much says it all.
PZed!
Great idea for the fundie undies.
Ware them not stop for a month without washing them.
Throw in a diet of mexican food with lots of peppers and refried beans. Perhaps some long tequila nights that end in a puddle of your own sick.
The beauty is that you are not only desecrating them in a foul way, but that you're using the food and liquor of brown people.
I think that I'm officially a genius!!
What the hell is so wrong...I mean right with my brain?
I never can get that right.
http://www.carm.org/lds/ldspapyri.htm
um
whoa
too much
Forget that ski vacation in Park City; Colorado has great snow, too. Be even ruder to the next pair of white-shirted Mormon missionaries who come to your door.
maybe i'm a minority but i've never met a mormon i didn't like. I have close friends who are mormons and i doubt they had anything to do with this.
its like saying well george bush started the war in iraq and therefore all americans are responsible, even the ones who said they didn't vote for him ( which i think is 80% of the population right now)
so going out and treating people like shit is the solution?
this blog has devolved into a feeding frenzy on those we deem not like us. I guess that's just human nature. looks like intelligence doesn't innoculate you against it.
oh yeah.
release the hounds!
Rev
Like all great artists, I'll only be truly appreciated after I'm dead.
Should be any day now with my current lifestyle.
Get ready to love me.
Wait... wouldn't they have to? Wouldn't any money spent by the Mormon church come from the required tithing?
The anti-Prop 8, pro gay marriage crowd ran ads charging this whole idea that public schools will teach gay marriage is just a "lie."
However, the same groups who said it's a lie - "public schools will teach about gay marriage whether parents like it or not" -- were in court in Massachusetts filing amicus briefs arguing parents don't have any right to opt their children out of the pro-gay marriage curriculum.
From the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) Amicus Curiae Brief:
", it is particularly important to teach children about families with gay parents." [p 5]
From the Human Rights Campaign Amicus Curiae Brief:
"(parents have) no right to remove the books now in issue - or to impose an opt-out system." [pp1-2]
From the ACLU Amicus Curiae Brief:
" parents do not have a constitutional right to override pedagogical judgment of the school ...King and King." [p 9]
Which side is really telling the truth here about its aims?
A Mormon loftily self-emplaced
on the highest spot in the realm,
self-congratulatorily graced...
were it not for that second "m"
What mandrake said.
But also condemning the mormon church and beliefs is not the same as saying all mormons as individuals are hateful bastards. However if they continue to subscribe to that belief system they are supporting it.
I lived in WY for almost 10 years and knew plenty of mormons. Nice people. But still held insane beliefs.
I know people who are racists. Nice people to me being a white male. Until we've had a few drinks and the "Have you heard this joke before" starts coming out or a black man walks into the bar with a white woman.
I don't hang out with them after that comes out, but I wouldn't have guessed it just from the typical office banter.
gypsytag
I think you make some reasonably valid points.
I have met some wonderful mormons too, but when I try to talk to them about my "beliefs" they don't take it too well.
There is not a chance of me taking a ski vacation anywhere in the near future, but I have no problem being a little smarmy to otherwise polite bigots.
I always fire a warning shot over the bow first, so it's up to them how we proceed. If they don't appear to be stereotypical mormons maybe it just turns into an interesting conversation.
I generally prefer distasteful jokes anyway.
Equal opportunity offender.
mandrake,
Wait... wouldn't they have to? Wouldn't any money spent by the Mormon church come from the required tithing?
yes and don't the required income taxes you pay kill innocent iraqis?
gypsytag
So far, seems the hounds are a little more reasonable than the credit you gave.
In the minds of many here, a serious injustice was done on tuesday. Let us blow off a little steam.
Hold your judgement a little longer.
Terrible analogy. Being a citizen of a country and being a member of a church are not equal.
Arnosium
That was brilliant!
Thank you.
gypsytag we are required to pay taxes.
Perhaps I should procure some magic underwear some day, and wear it outside my clothing to a protest. Maybe draw a Superman-style logo on the front.
"Which side is really telling the truth here about its aims?"
I don't know. Why do you have a problem with kids being taught about the existence of gay people and how they'd like to get married?
"Today's topic: Joseph Smith invented fanfiction. Discuss."
Actually, Paul invented fan fiction. Nah, you could probably trace it back even further.
ggab,
i don't have a problem with distasteful jokes. i don't even have a problem with people bashing the mormon beliefs. Yeah they're totally batshit insane.
My issue was with the call to arms to treat every mormon like a piece of garbage. yeah even those young kids that show up at your door. Be just a little more hateful to them. that'll learn 'em.
I know this blog is a magnet for the self-righteous knowitalls, me being one of them, but for some reason, that one crossed the line for me.
and yes, of course, i've fallen off script, i'm not agreeing with the great PZ so release the hounds.
You use such a scientifically eloquent term as the last sentence to cap off your hateful speech, sir. I would suggest you find less ignorant ways to comment on this. I really marvel at the fact that you would create a blog with such jaded and vitriolic content aimed solely at discrediting religion...
Why would you want to make fun of things that LDS church members find sacred? Is that the only way you know how to handle a situation? Try to bully other and insult faith because you obviously don't have the capacity to show faith for anything but what your eyes can see?
Might I remind you that the people of California voted not once, but twice on this issue? The family code was updated in 2000 to make same-sex marriage illegal. Then this year, a handful of judges decided to overturn what the people voted for. Can you think of anything more undemocratic than that?
And now we have people calling us bigots and hateful. Can anyone here understand the definitions of those words? We have never endorsed nor undertaken violence against gays. We are taught to love and care for all of God's children. There is no hate involved in our message. Saying that gays cannot marry does not constitute hate. It is an opinion on the matter to defend rightful marriage.
I see the opposite side spewing hate towards us now, saying all manner of disgusting insults and justifying it by saying that we have demonstrated hate by this just vote.
Although I respect gays as people, their practice is sin, as clearly defined in scripture. As I understand that most people here are atheist, I will still argue that the practice is totally against nature - to an extreme, if everyone were gay, there would be no survival of the species. And yet you want us to accept these marriages as valid?
I would especially now hope that the current and former members of the Church that are speaking against the Church would repent and come to their sense. How could you deny the Spirit you once felt? How could you spit at the face of the Savior and his called Prophet?
I say to all here, that if you do not speedily repent, our Father in Heaven will hold you accountable at the Last Day when you face Him. You will not be able to look upon His face for the shame and guilt you will feel at these horrible words.
To the owner of this blog - the Lord will come before we know it. And even you sir, will have to bow down at his feet and acknowledge Him as your Savior and Lord of all. You will reap the consequences at that day of these attacks against Him if you do not repent.
As absurd as Mormonism is, it is a fact that Mormons were in San Francisco long before the gays ruined it. So, all the chants about Mormons going back to Utah need to be countered by chants encouraging bellyaching gays to go back to their places of origin (e.g., a hole under a rock).
So where are all the outraged CookieGate™ Catholic trolls?
I have a hunch they're taking notes from Bill & Pixelfish: "How to enrage a Mormon".
It does no good to put a rusty nail through the Book Of Mormon or the "garments" to offend them like the cracker fetishists. I'm in favor of sending a few Watchtower wielding JW's to Utah, oh hell... send 'em all and let 'em fight it out.
You must not have been here long. One of the favorite pastimes of readers of this blog is disagreeing with PZ.
I'm not sure being hateful to them will do anything. But calmly explaining the insanity of their beliefs and the actions of their church, the church they are dedicated to, should be sufficient to get the point across.
Paul, call down the wrath of your imaginary god upon us. We will still be here tomorrow, because your alleged god does not exist. Absolutely no evidence for any god. So take your delusions back to your church. Just don't leave them here. And don't let the door hit you on the way out.
run paul run.
they're going to give you a 10 second head start.
:-)
Gays ruined San Fran.
That's cute. In an ignorantly bigoted way.
Seems you've got it the other way round. Those we deem not like us was actually started by Christians towards Atheists, Homosexuals and other "unworthy" minorities. How else can you explain their insistance on the notion of Christian Nation (Atheists shouldn't be allowed to be citizens) and on denying equal rights to homosexuals ?
Rev,
I'm not sure being hateful to them will do anything. But calmly explaining the insanity of their beliefs and the actions of their church, the church they are dedicated to, should be sufficient to get the point across.
that's not what PZ advocated. He said be a little more ruder to them.
Why don't you cite the specific language of the amendment. (Or, have the nearest literate adult cite it at any rate.)
1. Depending on orthodoxy, some say it's "hot drinks" and that would include tea. Other's say it's caffeinated drinks so you can drink herbal tea, decaf coffee, but not caffeinated soda.
2. The conversion rate is fairly high. The replacement rate is fairly high. However, the drop-out rate exceeds both substantially.
3. They also routinely excommunicate members and retaliate against their relatives if they don't shun them.
4. They are routinely hypocritical. The Marriott Hotels is one of the largest distributors of porn in the world. Yet they do nothing to Romney, et. al. Yet they recently ex-communicated a man for publishing a calendar of shirtless missionaries. Another Bishop is being ex-communicated because he supported the "No on 8" campaign yet, despite official denials, there are many, many polygamous families EVEN WITHIN THE MAINSTREAM CHURCH and they are not sanctioned.
5. The Mormon church is more business than church. They just built a $2 billion mall in Salt Lake. Which is more than they have provided in relief and aid for the LAST TWENTY-TWO YEARS. They also own about 30 radio stations, Beneficial Financial and a whole host of other commercial endeavors.
They're also whiny arsed titty-babies and have rightfully earned our contempt and scorn.
What a fantastically stupid point.
So only when you are violent it counts as hate or bigotry?
Defend marriage from what?
gypsytag
Your hounds have arrived, but they're mormons.
Okay, it's not bigotry because it's in the scriptures.
What do your scriptures justify about treatments of brown and black people?
What does it say about my Native American ancestors?
PeregANUS
On that subject, I was here first. Go the fuck back where you came from.
Who said I was PZ?
negentropyeater,
the only way i can expalin it, is that they are assholes. I'm not arguing for the mormons, i'm not defending christianity. religion is an abomination.
All i was trying to say is that these kids that come to your door are human beings and advocating treating them like garbage, just struck me as being wrong, and we're doing exactly what has been done to atheists, and minorities, etc.
if you feel the need to treat these individuals in a hostile manner, then go ahead. i don't.
I'd urge anyone in two minds about whether the Mormons should be left alone to examine the origins of this 'church', and its founder, a convicted 'money digger' con-man of the worst kind.
Christianity's origins seem positively sane by comparison with the craziness of LDS. Hell, *Scientology* seems rational next to this abject con-game gone horribly wrong.
It's okay to vent on a thread(within reason; finding that line and not crossing it requires more judgment {Eric A} than some of the posters possess), but treating someone as you would have them treat you face to face is prudent, humane and isn't in the sole domain of the Xians.
That being said, the "turn the other cheek" homily needs to be taken with a grain of salt. If they keep pushing to talk to you after you've said no thank you, then being more assertive without going full-goose-bozo will allow you to keep your self respect. Just like a date, no means no. If they push you -walk away/show them the door. A screaming match just makes you look like that Crazy Christian Lady on "Wife Swap".
And never be afraid to say "I disagree, the concept of god is a human construct and you and I will never agree on this matter. I don't care to debate it any longer, and no I don't want any of your literature. Thanks. Buh-bye"
That is far more common among the JWs than Mormons, but I realize that, as a vapid atheist (redundant, I know), you need not actually know what you are talking about but need only pretend to know.
There is a connection between the whalers in New York and the city of Moroni and the Isle of Grand Comoro - names Mr. Smith used in his fairy-tale book. Haven't read all the comments yet, so I hope I'm the first to post this and win the prize.
Moroni
Paul the gay-hater:
"Why would you want to make fun of things that LDS church members find sacred?"
Because they're ridiculous, that's reason enough.
"Is that the only way you know how to handle a situation?"
Not the only way, but it's a nice way to blow off some steam and maybe influence some outsiders.
"Can you think of anything more undemocratic than that?"
Not protecting the rights of minorities comes to mind.
"And now we have people calling us bigots and hateful."
You reap what you sow.
"We are taught to love and care for all of God's children."
Unless they do the wrong thing with their private parts, of course.
"Saying that gays cannot marry does not constitute hate."
Sure it does.
"It is an opinion on the matter to defend rightful marriage."
Meaningless.
"Although I respect gays as people, their practice is sin, as clearly defined in scripture."
Scripture is bollocks. Do you have any reality-based reasons to hate gays?
"I will still argue that the practice is totally against nature"
Lots of animals do it, so you're wrong there. Big surprise.
"to an extreme, if everyone were gay, there would be no survival of the species."
And if everyone ate nothing but chocolate cake, we'd all die. Weaksauce.
"How could you deny the Spirit you once felt? How could you spit at the face of the Savior and his called Prophet?"
I'm sure they have some choice words for you. I'm looking forward to reading them.
"You will reap the consequences at that day of these attacks against Him if you do not repent."
Yeah yeah, the usual "loving god who will nevertheless fuck you up good if you don't toe the line" language. Please, we're grownups here.
ggab,
Your hounds have arrived, but they're mormons.
i know and they've brought a whole bunch of crazy with them.
Again, i have no problem with the bashing of religion.
My beef is how we treat people as individuals.
Anybody who bangs on my door, unnecessarily interrupting me (I'm the judge of necessary versus non-necessary), is likely to be treated "rudely". Kids selling things are turned away more politely than adults doing the same thing. Missionaries get a lecture in the use of the Golden Rule and why they should never be knocking on anybodies door, if I don't just tell them to get lost. I once told a guy to get lost just because he was wearing a Jebus pin on his label and I didn't feel like playing. He was offended that I didn't even find out what he wanted.
Dodging the point.
We aren't talking about JWs we're talking about Mormons. And it does happen.
gypsytag,
I'm not advocating treating them like garbage, but that doesn't mean we should give any sort of respect to all their nutteries, crazy beliefs, and their completely loony imaginary American precolombian history.
gypsytag
Yeah, I got your point and I agree for the most part.
Like I said, we need to blow off some steam.
The bigots that popped up after your post are going to allow us the opportunity to get a lot of it out of our system.
Perfect timing.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful post, now duck, the shit just hit the fan.
Paul #304
Just because you push a bigoted, hateful agenda is no reason for you to be called bigoted or hateful? Epic fail
You just deny them basic civil rights. In the 1950s most blacks never had violence done to them by whites. Are you pretended then that racism isn't hateful and bigoted?
Unless they're homosexual, then you spit in their faces and deny them rights granted to every other California resident.
Oh bullshit. If you didn't hate them, you wouldn't work so hard and give so much money to deny them civil rights.
How does same-sex marriage damage "rightful" marriage? Because your sky fairy living in the outer reaches of the galaxy is supposed to have said something over 2000 years ago? Or because your homegrown lecher got it on with every woman available but with no men? Or what? You Mormons are not the folks to whine about "rightful marriage." We saw how some of you folks in Texas operate. "If they're young enough to bleed they're young enough to breed."
If there was the slightest chance that I might consider Mormonism as a belief, you folks ruined it. There is no way I'd want to be connected with a bunch of hateful bigots like the LDS Church.
Seeing as how the same books of scripture are morally whacked-out on other issues such as slavery, stoning of disrespectful children, and genocide, why should we trust the verse or two that mentions homosexuality?
There are countless species aside from humans that engage in homosexual behavior. "Against nature" is an absolute joke and has no correlation with the actual world out there.
As for your extreme example, what if everyone were Mormon? The increased population would be far more than we can feed, for starters. What if all religious people started behaving as though their religion was between them and god instead of trying to force it upon unwilling participants? What if a random stranger gave me a suitcase with a million dollars in it? This "What If" game is fun and all, but eventually we have to come back and live in the real world. Gay people, when finally accepted as equals among us, will never be a majority, the biological imperative involved is too strong.
What it boils down to, in the end, is that you don't like what consenting adults, whom you don't even know, do in their bedrooms. Worse than the dislike, you'd like to curtail their rights because of this choice. The question is simple: What's it to you?
Get a pair of magic underwear. I had a friend go to Utah who was able convince some store workers that she was Mormon and buy some (apparently you need to show some sort of ID card or church card to get them), and she sent them to me as an Xmas gift.
I always meant to spend a complete Saturday wearing them around the house waiting for Mormons to knock on the door so I could greet them while wearing them - with a beer in one hand and pornography in the other, but alas, my past attempts at scaring them off had worked too well.
Oh, here's a better idea - get the women's magic underwear and wear them as a cross-dressing Mormon.
The No on Prop 8 campaign lost because it was terrible. Absolutely terrible. It was one of the worst fought campaigns ever. It was reactionary, slow starting, complacent, and had everything going for it. The state went overwhelmingly for Barack Obama and the No On 8 campaign didn't bother to point out that Barack Obama opposed Prop 8 until the Yes On 8 people sent around posters saying that "Barack Obama Doesn't Support Gay Marriage; Vote Yes on 8" to half-assed point out this fact? They should have made it well known at least in the black community where the Yes side won by 70%+. Rather than focusing on the heavy Yes supporting districts where anybody you got to was a gain they went around San Fran making sure the base knew that "No" was how they were suppose to vote. In fact, explaining to the people that "Yes" was a vote in favor of stripping rights might have helped too.
Worst of all, WHERE THE HELL WAS MY GODDAMNED YARD SIGN! My entire neighborhood was blanketed with Yes signs and nobody, I mean NOBODY, had a No sign. If I had one offered, I would have taken it, marched into my front yard and planted that bastard in there. Nope. Nobody had them and they weren't available because the No on 8 people sucked ass.
Protest all you want... where the hell was that passion when it would have been useful? Seriously, I was underwhelmed by their campaign. Now the icing on my cake of overwhelming landslide is that I now think that my very progressive state is filled with bigots.
Rather than be pissed at Mormons they should be pissed at that shoddy ass No On 8 campaign. It was pathetic.
http://www.alternet.org/rights/106178/why_the_prop_8_gay_marriage_ban_w…
I think gypsytag has a bit of a point, at least as far as the rank-and-file are concerned. As I mentioned in one of my posts above, I think the best revenge and practical strategy would be to swamp Salt Lake City or Utah Valley with every type of gay and lesbian person possible, so that one could start innoculating the Mormons against their own bigotry. Seriously, when I started reading about gay people who weren't just stupid stereotypes, and then later when I met some folks who were out, and later still when I befriended them....every step was one step closer to me becoming rational about homosexuality and not treating it like its a sin. I really did used to think it was a bad thing, but I changed. Every Mormon you know is capable of change, but honestly, it does take a while. So I do try to maintain friendly terms with my old friends and my family who are still on the inside. They're still staring at the shadows at the back of Plato's Cave....but I keep hoping they'll join me in the outside world.
Of course, I do feel differently about the people higher up. I think they've had a chance ask themselves what they are actively teaching other people and I'm pissed as hell that my family is hostage to their emotional blackmail. Moses at 314 brings up that the culture encourages shunning those who have left if they start getting too obstreperous. So far my family hasn't gone that far, and most of my sibs are actually pretty chill about my non-belief, but it's painful to see my mom in denial because she REALLY believes that I've forsaken the only chance to go to heaven.
RE: Mormon symbols and Mormon beliefs...those are fair game to mock or dissect in my opinion. Mock on. (Although, you will probably find you get better results luring away Mormon friends if you tone down the mockery while posing serious questions.)
I'm lucky in that I at least have two of my best friends and one of my cousins joining me in my apostasy, and that I left before I went to the temple or got married. It was relatively easy for me to leave the church, but a lot of people don't feel they can afford to question their beliefs, when it may potentially leave them bereft of every family member and friend. I'm always proud when one of my still-Mo friends speaks up against Prop 8, because I know how much it costs them socially.
Yes. That's what we want. Why is it any skin off your nose? Why in the world would your church think it was worth millions of dollars worth of PR? You people are screwed up. It...does...not...affect...you...or...your...marriage. OK?
Ok so maybe it does. Why do you feel the need to keep them from doing it? What effect does it have on you?
TlalocW
Cross dressing mormon??
I gave myself too much credit earlier (common flaw).
That was true genius.
Well done TlalocW
pixelfish, I really appreciate your posts in this thread. Thank you.
negentropyeater,
I agree that their religion shouldn't be respected. it should be ridiculed.
I simply took slight offense to PZ saying that we should be a little ruder to those that knock on our door.
I just don't think its necessary to treat people badly regardless of what their beliefs are.
I have an "A" on the side of my front door and my dog chased a mormon up a tree. We call it the mormon tree now.
but it was a mistake. And i felt really bad that the dog was let out at the exact moment they were walking up the driveway.
But i didn't laugh at the young boy, i apologized. I didn't ask him why he ran if he was wearing magic underwear that should protect him. I didn't do all those rude things that a person could do. No I apologized to him, told him i was an atheist and gave him pointers on how to deal with dogs that charge him.
there is no reason for rudeness, it degenerates into hate too quickly.
For all you lurking Mormons, I've been reading up today on your religion, and I have to say: you all are crazy. I mean cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs CRAZY. I was raised Catholic and I thought the Catholics had some nutty beliefs, but you all are in a different universe of crazy all together. I can't imagine what contortions your mind must have to make to actually, honestly believe this stuff. I guess people really will believe anything with enough brain washing and social pressure.
I'm especially fond of the Mormons claiming they are being discriminated against. There isn't enough irony in the universe to fully appreciate that argument. Seriously, you all are nuts.
So is wearing your hair long, but it still didn't stop Jesus. I bet Jesus was down with the mangina too, how many jews back then with that much charisma stayed unmarried into their 30s?
Except that homosexuality occurs all throughout nature. Lots of creatures engage in same-sex relations, from other mammals to birds.
But not everyone is gay. Only a small percentage of people are. Homosexuality is no more a detriment to the survival of the species than personal sacrifice is - again something you see throughout nature. Same sex relations happen, they happen without detriment to that species and there are even survival advantages to the practice.
I may be reading a little too much into this, but I think that the REAL reason that the Mormons supported Prop H8 was because it 'widened' the definition of marriage to include same-sex couples. It doesn't take a lot of thought to see that if that step onto the slippery slope can happen, the definition of marriage could also soon allow --- polygyny, just as it was in the original Joseph Smith/Brigham Young Make-Believe Universe. That would call into question the prophesy of 1890 that made it apostasy. You must realize that after God has changed His Message to correct things, it just, just, just has to be correct.
IMHO the proper way to celebrate same-sex love is to [tastefully] demonstrate it in front of your friendly local LDS congregation on Sunday morning. Couples holding hands, smooching, minor necking [but nothing beyond second base!] while on public property in full view of the congregation as it comes to and leaves services could be the right kind ofr demonstration. Every Sunday.
As has been mentioned [Pam @ Pandagon and others], the major reason that non-whites voted for the proposition was that there was very little outreach into the black churches. A few same sex black couples or interracial couples singing "We Shall Overcome" in the same circumstances in front of black churches might have a consciousness raising effect.
I missed this bit of nonsense:
If (and that's a massive IF) there is "our father in heaven" and we're face to face, he'll have some big-time explaining to do. And I'm not going to take "I'm the Big Guy In The Sky" as an explanation for any of the sadistic shit he's pulled. What's he going to do, send me to hell?
As I understand that most people here are atheist, I will still argue that the practice is totally against nature - to an extreme, if everyone were gay, there would be no survival of the species. And yet you want us to accept these marriages as valid?
Last I checked there was no specific onus on any one relationship to perpetuate the human race. Plenty of straight couples don't care about perpetuating their genes. (And if gay people want to, there's the miracles of IVF and surrogacy.)
Also: Perigrinas - San Francisco isn't ruined by the gays. It's enriched by their presence. I loves me my San Francisco, and it's my favourite city in the world, and I'm pretty certain some of it would not be possible were it not for a healthy thriving GLBT culture. I know you're in troll territory, but I can't stand by while my favouritest city is slandered because it has the generosity of spirit to accept people of all types as equal.
I'VE GOT IT!!
When the mormons come to my door...I'm going to flirt with them!!
Oooeew, what if they respond? Not that there's anything wrong with that.
I think a really good BJ with a prostate massage would change their mind about the "unnatural" point though.
Brother, it's heaven.
snicker
Post #338
Most rational one yet on this thread.
BTW, guess what were the TWO states where Obama got his lowest score ?
UT and OK?
Lol. Priests think they have a good thing going. We atheists have Mormon boys and they're so much better. There's even a delivery service.
...There really is something magical about those underpants.
ok. im done. im sorry.
I believe it was OK and WY.
yikes
Negentropyeater: Wyoming was pretty low, as was Oklahoma, and Utah. (I think Utah had a 35% on CNN's chart, last I looked, but it wasn't the lowest at the time.)
John Morales: Danke schoen.
WYOMING 33%
UTAH 34%
Mormons sure don't like Obama.
Bet you, they must have been praying real hard.
Does that mean that the Mormon God was on vacation that day ?
Pay attention everyone.
Eric is explaning what "rational" is.
Edge of seat gripped!
This could be good.
I think you should spend an entire week criticizing the beliefs of Mormonism. Show how the Book of Mormon was written in the 19 th century, how all archaeological and genetic show no close relation whatsoever between Native Americans and the Hebrews, and how the Church's historical treatment of black people (ironically, one group that really supported prop 8). Then use the magic underwear as floor mop.
Yeah. #338. I agree. There's no reason to be a deliberate asshole. I had Mormons come to my door once (because I ordered the free book). I was polite. I by no means took their mythology as anything other than a sociological novelty, interesting but not to be taken seriously.
But we don't want to make them the victims of this. I think that's what all this (perhaps mean spirited) protesting may risk. They're the hate filled ones. That's the problem, but it's easy to get sucked into.
Bullshit. The Mormon apologists are among the most laughed at in all of archeology. Constantly straining at every little gnat of a thing that, with a wackaloon interpretation, can be stretched to support their delusion while ignoring the, literally, tons of evidence that it's all made up.
oh dear. I just got approval from Eric.
I must be wrong in someway. i'll have to rethink my position.
I am shamed in front of the whole atheist community.
Oh god i mean FSM what have i done!!!
Timothy!! You filthy little minx!
Love it!
Timothy's got Wood.
snicker yet again.
OK also 34%.
How about we all enjoy some hearty mormon mockery courtesy of South Park?
http://www.southparkstudios.com/guide/712/
Joseph Smith was called a prophet,
dum-dum-dum-dum-dum
Timothy,
Thanks.
I have to disagree on the protesting though.
i think protesting is good because it is bringing attention to an institution. i have no problem with that. I think their should be more protests to show just how outraged people are. Its the true abomination.
i mean didn't the good book say you reap what you sow.
well, i think the mormon church is going to get both barrels of the sow, and rightfully so.
I really just make it a point to distinguish individuals from institutions. I think sometimes people blur that line.
gypstag @ #324- "i know and they've brought a whole bunch of crazy with them.
Again, i have no problem with the bashing of religion.
My beef is how we treat people as individuals."
And here we have the mirror image of the "I don't hate gays as individuals. I just don't think gays as a group deserve marriage equality" bogus argument.
Well, speaking as someone whose rights were stripped on Nov. 4th, I can proudly say that I have a supply of diarrhea ballons all ready for the next set of Mormon missionaries who choose my house for a visit. They've earned 'em.
C'mon, Mormons. Bring it. Not all of those nasty sinful gays live in West Coast cities like San Francisco. Most of us live in the quiet neighborhoods you like to canvas, the ones right around the corner from your churches.
Ringing bells today? Knocking on doors? Feeling lucky?
Re #91:
"Incidentally, I am absolutely opposed to the idea of using the IRS as a behavior modification tool."
You already are using the IRS as a "behavior modification tool" - that's what the tax exempt status is for (it's meant to keep churches quiet and out of politics). Removing the tax exemption would remove the (failed) attempt at modifying behaviour.
I'VE GOT IT!!
When the mormons come to my door...I'm going to flirt with them!!
A friend of mine did that. Within a few weeks, the missionary ended up sending back the bike, and living with her!
Hmmm.......
I wonder who has been rude here for weeks?
I think jcr is opposed to using the IRS for anything.
Rick
What do you think would cause more trauma?
Diarrhea baloons or a sacktickle?
I love your idea, but I'm looking for the best bang for my buck.
Must be the Cherokee/Jew in me.
What? A L-word being against the IRS? Shocking!
Not another thread being brought to the L-word!
Aquaria
I think flirtations from me would have a different effect than you're friend.
I'm not a "her".
I'm sorry I made that comment for fear of what comes next.
RickR,
I see your point. And i suspect that I would feel the same way if i was in your shoes.
But when a 16 year old kid who hasn't even voted yet shows up at your door, you're not going to make yourself feel better by throwing a bag of shit at him.
A polite bigoted piece-of-shit is still a bigoted piece-of-shit. And say what you will, I know your religion is nothing but a 19th Century Scientology and you're a fucking bigoted piece of shit.
ggab- "Rick
What do you think would cause more trauma?
Diarrhea baloons or a sacktickle?
I love your idea, but I'm looking for the best bang for my buck.
Must be the Cherokee/Jew in me."
How about this? A gay porno with a bevy of muscular hunks with whiter-than-white teeth, having a tumble wearing the magic undies?!?! Nothing like seein' gay boys being boys, pitching tents in god's own underwear. "Swordfight of the gods", anyone?
I believe the minimum age for Mormon missionaries is 18.
Rev., I'll take the responsibility. Have another beer. Sounds like I need another one (or) too.
"But when a 16 year old kid who hasn't even voted yet shows up at your door, you're not going to make yourself feel better by throwing a bag of shit at him."
So you say.
Even as a heterosexual man, a diarrhea balloon would be MUCH worse for me than any flirting from a man.
By leaps and bounds.
but I'm not a mormon.
RickR
You are truly twisted.
Set the controls for the heart of the sun!
Release the Kraken!
Call Larry Flint!
The kid stays in the picture!
Dear intellectually-deficient bean-counter,
They have shots for rabies these days. Also, I'd take goofy-ass Mormonism over vapid atheism any day.
If they are preaching the word without any sense of social sensibility, surely it's our duty to do something to make them socially aware.
It's 19, actually.
I volunteer to wear the magical underwear for a week.
I can outskidmark just about everyone and am temporarily without female sensibilities to talk me out of them...
Tis,
they all look like young kids to me.
but of course, being 18 that makes them all guilty i guess..
just like all muslims are guilty cause muslims do the suicide bombings.
We already knew you were an idiot, no need to scream it from the mountain top.
It's inevitable. At some point or other, the ole' diarrhea ballons show up as a way to express your anger. I've created a short monologue to see what a Mormon would think if they were covered in diarrhea.
Mormon: Well, that went well. I rang the doorbell and someone has thrown a diarrhea ballon at me. I'm now covered in some else's shit. I was just going to hand him a pamphlet but I suppose I deserve to be pelted with shit. I was expecting no one to answer the door or, if they did, some curt response. But, no, shit ballons are entirely right and proper. I've always heard the right way to begin and end a debate is to put some diarrhea in there. I had always heard that atheists and agnostics got their morality and values from something other than an old book. Apparently, that something other involves flying shit ballons and not reasoned debate. To each his own, I guess.
"Also, I'd take goofy-ass Mormonism over vapid atheism any day."
I guess we're defining "vapid" as "devoid of lies".
No, devoid of intelligence.
"To each his own, I guess."
Just thought I'd repeat that. No particular reason.
PZ!!! This is your most 'militant' post yet!(At least, out of the ones I've read!)
I love it.
Jeeves, your post presumes that the goal is to change Mormon hearts and minds. Personally, I don't give a shit about any of them, what they think, or what they believe.
These idiots are a threat to civil liberties. I no more care about changing their minds than I care about sitting down with a KKK member to discuss the idea of racial equality. I DON'T CARE.
What I DO care about is sending these idiots back to their churches with the clear idea that their moronic beliefs are not welcome in mainstream America. They are fringe maniacs. That's it.
And being covered with shit is poetic justice. Have you actually seen any of the "Yes on 8" ads?
Scott,
I can outskidmark just about everyone and am temporarily without female sensibilities to talk me out of them...
This could be the reason for the lack of female companionship.
The toilet paper is there for a reason.
That sounds like every religion.
In a way its like... divide and conquer. Mormonism is the red headed stepchild of Christianity. We've separated them from he herd and now we pounce. The other denominations that supported prop 8 just sortof whistle and walk away.
Conspicuous absence of wild bill coming to the rescue? Not gonna stand up for the ginger? eh?
Let me get this straight. You'd choose mormonism, a religion based on some of the most indefensible proclamations, started by a liar and con artist, that just recently spent millions of dollars to deny a group of people rights over the entirely rational position of not seeing any proof of god so not believing in one.
Thanks. We know who is at least lacking in any great amount of intelligence
If Pharyngulites are going to share a brain, then at least get one that works.
@395
isnt this about the geys?
when did they spend all this money hating on us?
PeregANUS
Care to share with me Mormon ideas on injuns like myself?
You know prairieniggers.
What do you say?
Do you have a point beyond showing your ass?
Well atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god, it doesn't subscribe belief in anything. Moreso it's the individual who can assess the merit of arguments on their own worth as opposed to applying it to a strict doctrinal core...
i.e. atheism requires no intelligence, but it's a position the intelligent can use. And come on, mormonism? I can pay someone 5 bucks to "read" out of a hat and come up with a more imaginative story.
We have one, that is why we reject your alleged god.
California - One giant facepalm
Peregrinus
In short, Peregrinus expresses preference for acknowledged "goofy-ass" absurdity over perceived vapidity. Which, of course, is itself vapidity.
Heehee. Such unintentional irony.
There are two kinds of atheism, as I see it. There is the kind exemplified by Judge Posner, who is an atheist because he simply lacks belief in God, and then there is the atheism as exemplified by the theomachoi that tend to infest this place. I have no quarrel with the former kind of atheists but I'd shed nary a tear if the latter were "reverse raptured" to Hell tomorrow.
And yes, Joe Smith is one of the most transparent frauds in the history of religious chicanery, but his modern followers tend to be good folk. (Just as long as I don't have to attend their church.)
theomachoi? translate please? for us theomachoi who don't know what we are.
Well, that is one thing stupid people are good for.
According to Holy Joe, "God" altered the melanin count of your ancestors because they were wicked. Oh, and you are descended from seafaring, proto-Christian Hebrews.
Were we just called militant atheists? How can I be militant? I don't own a beret, shades, or an AK-47.
@ Rick R,
I believe in the secular redemption of minds. I also believe that I have no idea of your anger in the wake of the vote. However, I would propose that shit throwing (which I assume you meant partly in jest, figurative shit, if you will) would only strengthen their wrong headed resolve. The KKK were knocked out of power by widespread education that they were simple minded fools and not to be trusted or listened to. A similar prescription is in order for the Mormons.
@SC,
Yes, I see the irony in my last sentence. But it was in regards to how the hypothetical atheists' debating skills. I realize that a campaign of hate does not go hand in hand with that last benign statement.
We wouldn't have to behave like theomachoi if not provoked by the religious trying to force themselves upon us like we were their high school prom dates.
The war isn't against god as there is none. It's against the people telling us we are wrong for recognizing the lack of evidence and therefore not bowing down to their ridiculous mysticism and laws.
Ex-Mormon, douche-bag. I know first hand from watching it happen you vile, lying-piece-of-fucking-apologistic shit. Which is why I made this post:
Here: http://docsdomain.net/blog/?p=1051#comments
And both, through my name, reference back to my blog.
Asshole. I know your shit inside and out. And I've seen people ex-communicated. And seen their loved ones ex-communicated because they DIDN'T ABANDON their loved one.
You make me sick. You are the vilest Mormon apologist I've seen in years.
In essence, PeregANUS would rather be a person who is disgusted by people who did not choose to be black/brown/gay, than be a person who is disgusted by someone who DID choose to be mormon bigot.
Makes sense.
PeregANUS isn't mormon, he/she is just an asshole.
I have been associated with academia as an undergrad, grad, and now a university employee, and I've befriended some atheists during that time; they are not like the ****heads here.
Those who wage war against god.
Which is hilarious being that there isn't one.
Peregrinus = Eques Dei = the banned Ost.?
(trying it without writing out the full name, since it was held for moderation when I did)
I`M A FALSE PROPHET AND GOD IS A SUPERSTITION...
I`M A FALSE PROPHET AND GOD IS A SUPERSTITION...
I`M A FALSE PROPHET AND GOD IS A SUPERSTITION!!!
I`M A FALSE PROPHET AND GOD IS A SUPERSTITION!!!
I`M A FALSE PROPHET AND GOD IS A SUPERSTITION!!!
Here are my two kinds of atheism:
1. Give me a fucking break, you believe this shit? Jesus-fuckme-Christ (ShitFuckDamn!). What, you're fucking with me, right? You are hoping to grow up someday?
2. Oh, athiest #1 is just being an asshole, he's actually a nice guy. I don't believe that stuff either, but how are you doing. No, really sincerely!?
On another topic: the B.O.M is such a freakingly stupid piece of obvious malarkeyshit. How can anybody say that it's worthwhile in any way?
Must say, though, lots of nice folks sort of adhere to malarkeyshittitude-n-stuff, and are great to hang out with, barbecue, drink some beers. Some of 'em don't really care about, or sort of admire, atheism.
Hmm... Like I said, P appears to like his atheist afraid to speak their minds and challenge his silly beliefs. Goody, we need another troll to chomp.
Off-topic, here, but this appeared just today on the BBC site:
Octopuses share 'living ancestor'
I am not a Mormon, dumb ass. I know several, however, and I've yet to see a Mormon excommunicated by the Mormon Church for continuing to associated with "apostate" family and friends.
I suggest you read up on the limitations of anecdotal evidence. (Or, more appropriately, have it read to you.)
Yes and no one here (I don't think) is debating that fact. The Mormon church is the villain here. But there church is made up of it's members. At some point the members have to take some responsibility.
That's about as believable as me being a billionaire with a harem of supermodels.
Unless, it was a Christian college, of course. I could reasonably see someone as intellectually bankrupt as you going to one of those.
But, honestly, you show no real intelligence in any of your posts, nothing has been remotely insightful. Poor attacks calling atheism intellectually "vapid" despite all statistics showing atheism increases with education are hardly what I would call scathing, lest you wish to make a mockery of yourself.
So, realistically, you're just another sad soul who wishes to aspire to another Ray Comfort. It's a shame that a human mind has gone to waste, but that is one of the many woes of religion.
Your opinion is duly noted and discarded, Bubba.
there should be the
KoT
No, but if you shove your head far up enough your ass and chant "Jesus" enough you can convince yourself otherwise.
Then again, given that last time God supposedly came to Earth he got his ass crucified, I'd probably be reluctant to show my face again.
Last time I checked, UC San Diego Mathematics Department was a secular department at a secular institution. You are welcome, however, to whatever delusions help you sleep at night.
Maureen
That is too awesome for the word awesome to adequately describe.
That has to get it's own post.
PZed!!
Well being that we as atheists don't accept that there is a god, it's pretty funny to say we are waging war against one, Cletus.
If P can ignore our opinions, I'll follow the golden rule and do the same to his. So far, there has been no cogent argument from him anyway, so no big loss.
Astute thee, but you left off my original incarnation.
Could it be ... Satan?
Yes, and YEC says there is no such thing as the Big Bang or a billions year old earth; they're wrong, too.
I guess you're the Ken Ham of atheism.
No, the Book of Morons clearly states that Octopuses are the 13 th species of camel.
Great responses pixelfish. I was also raised LDS, got a shock when I found out I couldn't hold the priesthood, and figured out there was nothing in the religion (or any religion) for me. I think I was a little younger than you when I came to that conclusion.
And it's great to read about the rest of you. I'm also a Utahn; born here, raised a bunch of other places, came back as a teenager, and been here ever since (over 30 years).
To be sure. To continue to be a member of an organization which continues to commit atrocities is to endorse those atrocities, at some point.
Still, I myself selfishly adhere to my IPA, triple-latte, dilettante, non-vegan, carbon burning* lifestyle, essentially non-questioningly. Not that that's exactly the same as being religious. In fact, it's kind of the opposite, sort of like being religious socially rather than as a commitment. In a way, I am no better than the lazy religionist.
...oh, except for my rejection of gods-hypotheses; I am, in fact, rather** empirical and (philosophically) materialist. Which is, I guess, to say I'm more likely to be found "fitter," given an empirical fitness function.
*(9/7)*(2 x 4.7) miles per day, at 23mpg - 34mpg freeway, '95 Saturn. 21mpg in winter.
**that is, to an extreme.
Yes, that's exactly the same Cletus. Good job. Did you get that logic from the daycare? Care to show me some evidence supporting god? I can show you some supporting millions of years and the Big Bang.
I guess it's like the war on Christmas. It doesn't matter whether you believe in God, it's equating secularisation to absolute destruction. Funny that theists try to paint atheists in an extreme manner in order to discredit their ideas. Peregrinus is just another in a long line of theists who go on the 'irrational atheist' angle because really the best they can do to demonstrate God is to discredit those who oppose the ideas.
Peregrinus is apparently afflicted with some warped form of SIWOTI and general contrarianism. Not worth the pixels to acknowledge.
ggab: I think it would be very, uh, enlightening if men flirted with the Mormon missionary. You never know: There might be some more bikes traded in!
Peregrinus said:
The difference being that the Big Bang model and (this feels silly to have to write, even) the old Earth model are both supported by loads of actual evidence, and have stood up well to rigorous testing. The proponents of the God hypothesis haven't been able to provide any compelling evidence.
Re the octopus article linked in #419: Wait, they're claiming that they used DNA sequences to trace the ancestry of a bunch of species of deep-water octopus to a single common ancestor, which is a still-extant species? I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way. I'd be interested in David Marjanović's opinion of that shit.
Why can't it?
@435,
Yes, but only if membership is optional. And "atrocities" in this case is hyperbole, to use such terms lightly is to cheapen them.
I accept Kurt Gödel's Ontological Argument.
SC: By Ost. do you mean Osterius*?
*if I misspell the name maybe it won't get held up like yours
YAWN!
Sorry. That's (9/7)*(2 x 4.7) miles per week. ShitFuckDamn.
That's a little more than 12 miles per day on average. Add another couple for the occasional weekend trip-n-stuff.
So your argument is a philosophical one rather than one of empiricism?
I just don't get it. What's so "divine" about marriage? None of my married friends even recommend it. What's with all the fightin' and a feudin'?
I guess it's not impossible, but it would require the "common ancestor" to be genetically stable enough to be called the same species for 20 million years. While possible, it seems unlikely and, more importantly, unknowable.
The caption to the first photo states the correct finding:
That's not the same thing as being the common ancestor.
Got to love that theists will make claims about the nature of the universe, empirical claims, yet will drop back to philosophy when it comes time to prove their claims. Where in that proof can God be distinguishable from Flying Spaghetti Monster? What about that proof implies that Jesus is God in manform and died on the cross for our sins only to resurrect 3 days later?
Yes. Teleological arguments probably have merit but arguments based on mathematical logic are most important to me.
Nerd of Redhead: If PZ makes a post that causes the rest of us to engage in 446 messages worth of total inanity (how many morons does it take to dance on the pin of a head?), does that mean he is trolling?
In other words, I endorse your yawn.
SC: By Ost. do you mean Osterius*?
Yup - and he's admitted it (@ #430). As to the other incarnation, I have my suspicions, but refuse to speak its name. He's admitted to morphing and to having previously been dungeoned. Seems to crawl out of the woodwork on weekends when PZ's away/busy.
Like 1+1+1 = 1?
So you base the question on whether Jesus resurrected on mathematical logic? What mathematical logic shows that Jesus was born of a virgin, that he is one with God and the holy spirit? What mathematical logic distinguishes the theist God from a deist God, or a pantheist God? What mathematical logic makes God anything more than anthropomorphising the unknown?
You need to go to empirical evidence because empirical evidence is vital to the nature of our understanding of reality. It's the only way to tell a god from an invisible pink unicorn.
No, I flatly reject the doctrine of the trinity, as should all Christians.
None of which I am aware.
Are ye sure ye dinnae mean True Christians™?
So what role do you give to Jesus then if you don't put him as God incarnate?
I consider this security through obscurity. He likes it because it's obtuse, and most people aren't going to be arsed to work through it just to correct him.
George Atkinson @ #166,
You said "And now, godly scoutmasters, like godly priests, need no vetting, or supervision". This is just incorrect. As much as I despise the BSA policy against atheists and gays, they do indeed have policies in place to avoid pedophiles -- the big problem is that they conflate the two (gays vs. peds). All leaders do undergo a background check and there is a huge emphasis on "two deep leadership" (i.e. never leaving a single boy alone with a single adult out of sight of others).
The biggest problem is that while Seaton and other founders of BSA did not overemphasize religion -- I take their writings about it at all as a product of the times -- later zealots (LDS and Catholics, as big $ sources, as well as anti-communists of the 50's) have latched onto this end of the culture wars and continually try to make it of more import than I think the original founders meant it to be. To this end I think they pervert one of basic the ideals of scouting which is to respect others.
Most of the trouble comes from the top National levels. Down at the grassroots I think there's more a live-and-let-live don't-ask-don't-tell attitude. Though that probably varies for Unit (Pack/Troop) to Unit.
So you would agree that the mathematical nature of proof has no bearing on the existence of God as described in Christian doctrine as certain attributes and actions are defined to 'Him' that can only be answered through empirical investigation?
I like that - well put. It's that kind of 'you can't argue against my version of god if you don't know what my version of god is, can you? Ha-ha!'
Of course, what they don't seem to realise is that when you insist on making your idea of your god so nebulous as to be insubstantial you take away its ability and therefore its necessity.
I once met a pair of Mormons on a train north of London. We were just about to go around a bend which is notorious for several crashes over the past couple of decades. Since they were visiting, I decided to point out the track's morbid history and delighted in the horror that struck their eyes.
That's a nice way of putting it.
I call them diffuse arguments for God. They stretch the concept of God out to encompass almost anything (you could easily substitute the word God for Flying Spaghetti Monster in that mathematical proof and have exactly the same outcome) then once that is 'proved', pull God back to regular size and conclude that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. There's nothing in that proof that links God to the Judao-Christian construct of God, yet that's what the conclusion takes simply by the use of the capital G.
A heteroousian! There hasn't been a heteroousian around in ages!
So, what other parts of the Nicaene Creed do you reject?
Are you also a Pelagian, by any chance?
My Christological thought is bounded by "Dynamic Monarchianism" on the "left" and "Arianism" on the "right." If the former is correct, then Jesus was a man indwelt by the power/wisdom/rational principle of God and if the latter is correct, then Jesus is the Incarnation of a pre-existent divine being who is subordinate to God.
Incidentally, I also think "Sabellianism" passes the hurdle of logical coherency, but unlike the Christologies I mentioned above, it is not consonant with Scripture.
And how can you 'know' any of this without looking to empirical evidence? How do you discern it from the imaginary?
Happy birthday, Carl Sagan!!
I can sum up my distrust of solely logical proofs in two words: Zeno's Paradox. Somehow I still manage to get to work in the morning...
We heteroousians were the victims of potent popery, for sure.
Anyway, I am genuinely impressed. To answer your question, I've given more thought to Christology than Soteriology, so I am not sure if I am a Pelagian or not. I have a favorable view of the far less cranky Calvinism of Amyraldus, but I've yet to make a commitment.
Gah! P is now as happy as a pig in mud.
Blockquote fail, third time in 48 hours.
And finally it comes out, it's an appeal to scripture.
Does that hurt? It sounds painful. Perhaps you should see a doctor.
Nicely timed.
Well I'm reading up on Godel's ontological argument. But I'll have to admit, I'm going to have to familiarize myself with a few things so I can understand some of the tools he is using.
Seems there are some assumptions at the base of his argument.
For the items that are unique to Christianity, yes. I don't recall claiming that Kurt Gödel's Ontological Argument (or any other) got me all the way to Christianity.
I give you credit for looking into the arguments of the opposition at least. I've done the same with Dawkins.
So what evidence do you have that the scripture is a divinely inspired book?
This quote sums it up for me
If the Bible is telling the truth, then God is either untruthful or incompetent. If God is truthful, then the Bible is either untruthful or erroneous. - Rev. Donald Morgan
To #s 461 and 166,
I'm a registered Scouter, self-styled teleologist and homophobo-phobe. I won't throw away the privilege and fun of it by taking on the cowards in Dallas. I decided to "don't ask, don't tell" some time ago, and apparently everyone else did too - I have never heard the subject discussed at "ground level".
I don't recall if anyone ever asked me if I believe in God, so don't out me! I was raised UU and earned the religious award, and apparently the LDS has not yet targeted us, although we may be the largest group of connected heathens in the world.
Proving the existence of a (just one, right?) god with mathematical logic? And then the jump to Calvinism? Nice. Say, Peregrinus, do you know a guy named Dave Heddle? You two would get along great. Although Heddle's probably in a cranky mood after the Stillers lost today. I know I am.
Cannabinaceae, philosophical arguments about god bore me. There is always a flaw, usually in the premises, but trying to find it under all that unnecessary verbiage is just a snooze. I much prefer good hard evidence. So I'll sit this one out.
Yeah, I might have had some chance of going xian if part of the sales pitch had been something like, 'There's this god, see, and he likes to fuck with you - he finds it amusing. But he really wants you to like him in spite of that. So come along, we'll sing some songs, drink some wine, generally have a good time.'
That might have worked. But it wasn't that, it was more like, 'God exists, and he's benevolent and all-powerful, but when bad shit happens it's not his fault, it's yours, and if you don't worship him and beg for forgiveness then your ass is toast for all eternity. Unfortunately, even if you are good, you get stuck in somewhere mind-numbingly boring with all the really lame people for all eternity instead.'
Sorry, but that shit just ain't gonna fly.
Not only do I know him, he is one of my facebook friends.
8-D>
I recall a recent thread discussing philosophical "proofs" for God. Meaty bit starts here.
Peregrinus was born in Parium, c. 95 AD. At a young age he was suspected of parricide, and was obliged to leave his native home.[1] During his wanderings he reached Palestine, he came into close contact with the Christian community, and quickly rose to a position of authority.[2] He suffered a term of imprisonment at the hands of the Roman authorities, during which the Christians gave him much aid.[3] He may have expected to be martyred, but the Governor of Syria released him.[4] He seems to have become a Cynic at this point, because he returned home and renounced his inheritance, giving away all his money to the people of his home city.[5] He resumed his wandering life, maintaining close relations with the Christians at first, but eventually he offended them in some way, and was expelled from the Christian community.[6] He went to Egypt to study with the famous Cynic Agathobulus, where he learned the harsh asceticism of the sect.[7] He made his way to Rome, where he began a campaign of abuse against the Roman authorities, and especially the emperor Antoninus Pius.[8] He gained a following among the masses, and it may be at this point that Theagenes became his chief disciple. Although tolerated at first, he was eventually expelled by the City Prefect.[9] He next went to Elis in Greece, where he continued his anti-Roman preaching.[10] At the Olympic games (either 153 or 157), Peregrinus abused the wealthy philanthropist Herodes Atticus, whereby the infuriated crowd attacked Peregrinus, and he was forced to take refuge at the altar of Zeus.[11] In Athens, Peregrinus devoted himself to the study and teaching of philosophy, and obtained a considerable number of pupils, amongst them Aulus Gellius.[12] At the Olympic Games of 161, he announced that he would publicly burn himself to death at the following Olympics:[13]
I always wonder why a being that is omnipresent needs people to work for it. Surely a God that is everywhere should be easy to empirically demonstrate, we've been able to detect subatomic particles FFS!
The absence of God is exacerbated by the ferocity of the apologetics for His absence.
Not only do I know him, he is one of my facebook friends.
Now, I'll be glad when you're dead, you rascals, you!
I'll be tickled to death when you leave this earth, you dogs!
Hmmm, I took you for my friends,
The way you bit me in the back was a sin;
You ain't no good, you rascals, you!
Folks do you realize we have witnessed a miracle?
Walton posted a none libertarian comment @266, and then Scott from Oregon posted one @383. Joseph Smith be praised!
Arnosium Upinarum @275, thanks for your reply.
John C. Randolph @260, blue ribbon to you sir... the Nazi's thought they were Aryans, but they were mistaken...
I see I have a lot of catching up to do. I was out joy riding looking for the new pagan monastery that is opening up in Washington, must be invisible like Hogwarts. *snicker*
No, I'm Peregrinus, Bishop of Antissiodorum. I get calls from debt collectors looking for the other Peregrinus all the time, though.
Our Peregrinus seems to be an overly pretentious intellectualized contrarian aka TROLL.
Pffffft. Much ado about sophistry. I bet he's fabulous at D&D.
sing it, Pops!
uh oh.
I smell a freak out incomming
E.V. wrote:
Pink gem d20s for all!
That probably describes at least half of the people who post here.
A cleric, no doubt.
I'm actually related to Mormons through my wife's uncle. They're all quite nice people on a personal level, very much into family and community, supportive etc. But all of it has this slight bitter aftertaste for me because of the loopy beliefs that are absolutely central to their lives. And they breed like rabbits: the kids and grandkids of that uncle now outnumber those of the his 2 siblings about 4:1 with no sign of stopping any time soon. I've never felt it appropriate to discuss their beliefs to them, but every time I read something like this, I want to march over there and ask them what the hell?!?!
Oh gee, this is a bad as the Liars, Haters, and Killers for jesus crowd. People call Mormons bigots because they are bigots. Women, gays, nonwhites, nonLDS, at one time or another well over 99% of the world's population has been defined as Untermenshen, subhumans by the LDS leaders who all happen to be old white men.
Mormons are as hateful and bigoted as any group that walks the earth. They just don't get much chance to do much about it because there are only around 8 million in the USA and because the other xians are clear that they are considered heretics. While LDS doctrine claims that a majority of the world's population is subhuman, since there are so few of them, the rest of the world barely notices the kooks and ignores them.
1. Until recently blacks were inferior for some theological reason that escapes me. Brown skinned people are Lamanites, bad jews or some such and pigmentation is the mark of Cain. They keep changing their story as we become more civilized and knowledgeable and I haven't kept up on the latest. But calling 80% of the world's population, carriers of a multigeneration curse just because they aren't white is pretty damn sick.
2. In Utah where they have set up a closet theocracy, discrimination against pagans (anyone nonMormon) is ubiquitous and unremarked on. You see a huge number of places where all the employees just happen to be LDS. One test for prospective employees, ask the if they want a cup of coffee. If the answer is yes, end of interview and you won't get a cup of coffe anyway. Another is to ask where they did a mission or what ward they belong to.
3. Prop 8 just a coming out party for Mormon bigots. In Utah Cthulhu itself knows what they could do if they weren't part of the USA, and involuntarily at that.
4. There is a US army base in SLC, in the Wasatch foothills, that overlooks the city. Fort Douglas. The guns are pointed> down at the city. The base is there in case the Mormons decide to seccede and set up their own theocracy, their original plan. In truth, the base has been mothballed these days.
5. Women are permanent second class citizens forever to the Mormons. Baby makers, chattel, subservient to males. Even as gods, they can only become baby making assistant goddesses if some male calls them up. To this day no one knows the names of our alleged goddess mothers. Or even cares. The god is known as Adam, I think.
6. Of course, to the LDS they are the only true religion and the rest of us will be stuck in the lower heavens forever as inferior beings.
Paul don't bother lying to us, we know the score. Mormons are indoctrinated bigots of the worst sort from birth until death unless they manage to break out of the programming. Many do, there is a high fall out rate, especially the ones not raised in Zion, USA and exposed to some of the 6.7 billion people who just happen to be normal nonLDS human beings.