It's time for all the Germans to speak up and say hello! We have a silly poll on a German site: Do you believe in the effectiveness of alternative medicine? "Ja" is leading 64:36. How can this be? The "Nein"s need reinforcements!
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Off to vote...
Ah yes, the flim-flam many Europeans believe in.
I kind of envy Europe, though, because this junk simply bypasses science, it doesn't aim to destroy it so that it and ID are equally low.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
To help us keep track:
Ja -- 65%
Nein -- 35%
No number given for the total votes. (No decimals, either.)
Hit it from work, and will get it again when I get home.
"Es ist ein Fehler aufgetreten." An error occurred...
Tja, da kann man wohl zur Zeit nicht abstimmen, und das lächerliche Ergebnis bleibt bestehen :-)
it's moments like this that make me embarrassed to be German. I blame this on the "we want to look as inclusive and non-judgemental as humanly possible" paranoia
I am a jelly doughnut!
Oh wait, that's a myth. Nevermind ;)
Alles klar, Herr Kommissar?
man, that poll was designed to be crashed. no clearing of cookies or even refreshing necessary.
Ok, went to the site. All I learned was that the German word for "Newsletter" is "Newsletter".
Can we get some polls to crash that are in Russian, please?
nevermind...
they're cheating :-(
So of all the treatments that constitute "alternative medicine"--massage, aromatherapy, meditation, yoga, dietary changes, supplements, chiropractry, acupuntuncture, herbal treatments (ever drink any chamomile tea?)--you're positive that there's no associated effectiveness? That such a notion is laughable?
That seems equally unscientific.
how exciting ^^
I'm from Germany and this is the first time I'll see a german poll being pharyngulized. I just watched the show and am a little embarrassed, too.
let the crashing begin!
Mmmh, ich bekomme auch 'ne Fehlermeldung bei der Abstimmung. Entweder man kann nur während der laufenden Sendung abstimmen, oder PZ's Ruf ist schon nach Deutschland vorgedrungen :-)
Olly,
a healthy diet, the effects of certain plants (like, you know, the ones Western Medicine derives it's active compounds from), exercise and stress-relief are basic parts of Standard Issue Medicine.
everything else is scientifically useless, and occasionally even dangerous, woo.
I just watched the show and just had to blog my anger away (german: http://p-pricken.de/2008/12/hart-aber-faaaaaaah/ ). It was really ridiculous; when they talked about how one doctor went to the Philippines and saw a witch doctor operate without scalpel, I would have given a million dollars for Randi to show up. In the end, the skeptic of the group could only laugh and shake his head in defeat. He was defeat by the utter bullshit of three of the other four guests. The last one was a theist (he recently wrote a book called "God") but was adamant that miracles be reserved for the bible. He didn't even believe in Lourdes and stuff, so he was okay.
Jimminy C (#7)
Thanks for dispelling the jelly doughnut myth. As usual, everything I know is wrong.
Ich krieg' die gleiche Fehlermeldung!
This poll belongs to a talkshow I was unfortunate enough to tune into this evening. The panel was stacked in a 2:3 ratio in favor of the sCAMmers and the discussion was depressing as always: The moderator took the anti-science side, forgetting that in the public arena it would be more controversial to speak for science. The usual "arguments" were made: 1000yearoldtradition, 1billionchinesecannotgowrong, mypet/childcannotrespondtoplacebo, conventionalmedicinemakesmistakes, thereismorebetweenheavenandearth, you know the drill. But also as usual, the science side was a dry professor who also introduced his catholic belief and an exasperated swiss.
Where were the witty ripostes? I think in these shows it is impossible to put a single argument through, so humour and satire should be the weapon of choice. But no, as soon as somebody tries to argue, the moderator fears for the attention span and cuts it short.
A pain to watch.
Olly, if you have a chance you should visit Respectful Insolence. Question for readers of German: What is the poll including in the category of alternative medicine and in what way?
It's like someone just wants me to pun.
I'd like to ask those people who claim to be able to operate without opening the body whether they have to open doors when they go through them.
What frustrates me the most is how that guy Lütz refuses alternative medicine (as patrick just said) with the words "we don't need magic water, all we need is Jesus in our lives". Translation: "My Bullshit is better than yours". AARRRGH!
SC, the question is about "medicine for the soul" and "healing beyond the measurable"
you know, magic.
I don't speak German, so this could be an especially egregious case. I just wanted to point out that many medical concepts that were once viewed as "alternative" are now well-accepted: yoga, meditation, etc. "Alternative medicine" isn't a narrowly defined term.
I mean it - I'm already itqing to pun, so stop needling me!
well, I do speak German, and in this instance they're talking about magic, nothing more. I agree that science has a responsibility to test folk-medicines, because sometimes there really is something to it. but once something has been thoroughly tested and failed to show beneficial effects, you have to let go.
True. It's a bullshit term. If medicine works, it's not alternative. It's just medicine.
Thanks, Jadehawk!
"True. It's a bullshit term. If medicine works, it's not alternative. It's just medicine."
Well, who could fail to agree with that kind of certitude?
I don't even follow any "alternative medicine" practices. But, as #25 says, maybe "folk medicines" could have some efficacy. I wouldn't use them in the absence of testing. But pharmaceutical companies aren't beating down the door with double-blind studies, are they?
I don't think doing yoga, trying an herbal remedy, popping the occasional Vitamin C tablet or getting acupuncture treatment for neck pain is "bullshit" worthy of the prideful disdain displayed on this page. At the very least, they're unlikely to cause the harm of "medicine" like Rezulin, Vioxx, Celebrex, Fen-Phen, Lipitor, Redux, Propulsid, Oxycontin, Crestor or Bextra.
Still getting the message:
Don't think this is going to work.
An error has still occurred, and it's still at 65:35.
Well, at least they had an immunologist, who "knows: swallowing globules is like phoning without an accumulator. And have you ever seen that work?" The others... urgh. One of them asks angels for help. And the moderator is a Lutheran pastor.
@ #20
This is from the question page:
Ärzte sind für die Deutschen Halbgötter in weiß - aber trotzdem glauben viele gleichzeitig an Heiler, Engel und die Kraft von Pflanzen und Steinen. Gibt es eine wirksame Medizin jenseits des Messbaren? Findet die Seele Heilung da, wo die moderne Massenmedizin versagt?
"For the Germans, doctors are half-gods in white--but despite this, many believe at the same time in healers, angels, and the power of plants and stones. Is there really an effective medicine beyond the measurable? Can the soul find a cure where mass-medicine fails?"
So yes, they really are asking about general nuttiness.
Olly, when people believe in Alternative Medicine more or the same as in Standard Issue Medicine, you get situations like in Africa, where witchdoctors convinced people that the polio vaccine sterilizes girls. Or, closer to home, where people are scared into believing that vaccines can cause autism and either don't vaccinate or use dangerous but useless "treatments" like chelation.
I don't, myself, but I think that unless the "alternative medicine" in question is clearly and obviously junk, it should only be completely dismissed after its lack of effect(iveness) has actually been shown. Not everything that isn't currently explained or predicted by science is automatically junk - in fact, there's a lot of things still waiting to be discovered and properly explained. Although of course, there's a lot of cony-catching going on, too, and when in doubt, it's always good to be skeptical.
and, in the good tradition of providing anecdotes in discussions about alternative medicine:
I have a co-worker who tried to cure her Urinary Tract Infection with Cranberry Pills, and got a kidney infection.
Of course, many "alternative" treatments have no bad side effects... because they have no effect in the first place.
dammit, German error message...
Seems to be stuck at 65% Ja and 35% Nein, do you think they might be lying for Gaya?
I was in Germany for the first time a few months ago, and found out to my surprise that they put all the medicine behind the counter, and you have to ask for it... even something simple and cheap like paracetamol (Tylenol for us USians).
However, all the alternative remedies were out in the front of the store where they could be picked up by anyone.
Effective medicine in the back, ineffective medicine in the front... I don't think the Germans are fooled.
Alternative medicine is a fairly broad term, and it mostly means medicine that can't be patented by a pharm company and therefore are not effective. Marijuana is alternative medicine is clearly effective for many. You can believe what you want but to dismiss all medicine that not manufactured in a lab as ineffective is close minded and sad. If you think only pharm company produce effective medicine your probably going to be sick the rest of your life because there a lot more money in making you "feel better" then making you better.
@34 My wife had a urinary tract infection and took pure cranberry juice and it cleared right up..........huh?
ffs. I planned to watch the show when it becomes available online as I cannot receive it at my dormitory, but after the reports here I don't really feel like doing this anymore.
Well, that's German media, some rays of hope aside not much but lowbrow distraction and nonsense nowadays. Guess that is why they won't get me to pay the GEZ-Gebühr anytime soon.
Jadehawk,
You forgot that dogs and cats will be sleeping together.
Olly McPherson: Yoga is medicine the same way that cutlery is a food group. I love yoga, and practice it every day, but I do it because it's a pleasant form of exercise that makes me feel physically good and mentally calm, not because I think it'll cure my cancer/emphysema/genital warts.
All forms of exercise benefit your health, but you don't see anyone calling, say, swimming "an alternative water-based therapy".
Still 65% - 35%
@39
But they are clearly not asking about marijuana in this poll (see my response @ 31). In fact, the wording of the question says, quite clearly, that they mean things that cannot be tested and whose effectiveness cannot be reproduced in a lab or elsewhere.
Sure, many, if not most, large pharmaceutical companies are simply interested in selling drugs for profit, but, at the very least, we know that many of those drugs are useful and effective when used properly, etc. Praying is simply never effective and never will be.
I couldn't read any of that. It's like those Germans speak a whole different language.
Olly,
Here's a post from just this morning:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/12/when_parade_goes_woo.php
Check it and a few others out.
Aaaah... This is simply painful.
I'm SO fed up with people being endorsed as a former "Schulmediziner" (Mrs. Fuckert, in this case). "Schulmediziner" (could be translated as "school book medicine") is a pretty derogatory term for people practicing evidence based medicine. Sadly, the term is used widely to distinct alternative medicine from the evidence based kind.
In this case, they are basically saying "See, she gave up conventional medicine for mental healing and praying to guardian angels, so something MUST be wrong with the conventional kind".
Those people are so fucked up, I just have to invoke fractal wrongness.
Oh, the pain...
(I should abstain from reading Pharyngula shortly before I go to bed. I'm so annoyed right now, there is no way to get some rest now.)
I'm just hoping those voting yes are doing so because they believe in the utility of the placebo effect.
I don't see, how dietary changes, supplements and massages are "alternative".
Habe's gerade (gegen 6:10) gemacht, und es ging ohne Fehlermeldung. Es bleibt aber noch 65:35.
And Olly, yes, something that was originally under the heading of "alternative medicine" might become legitimized after testing, but that doesn't legitimize alternative medicine in the slightest, because the issue is WHY a certain medicine/technique works.
The foundation of medicine is science, and science is a METHOD. "Alternative medicine" is just as much a faith-based religion as Christianity--if some remedy that practitioners/believers happen to advocate turns out to be legitimate, it's coincidental. In fact, the reason some "alternative therapy" might work is because alternative practitioners have no standards or methodology, so they'll try ANYTHING--and of course some of it might happen to work, but again, only by coincidence.
Show me an example where science has legitimized not only the efficacy of a certain formerly-alternative technique but also fully validated the alternative explanation for WHY it works. Meditation may work to calm a person and clear his mind, but it's not because his chakra is being aligned with All-knowing Oneness, or whatever the bullshit "alternative" reason is.
Perhaps it should be adopted only after it has been shown to be effective?
Kristin, have you tried conventional medicine for your cancer/emphysema/genital warts? That sounds awful!
But yes, unfortuately, "alternative" medicine is so full of woo as to be useless. They hide themselves from scientific scrutiny and are not rigorously tested, or indeed tested at all - just read the discalimers and small print. Sigh, magic just doesn't work, even for poor Kristin ;)
Jadehawk,
You forgot that dogs and cats will be sleeping together.???
Ach, nevermind... I actually did get the failure message too. Didn't see it on screen. O:-) I tried answering yes too, but that also didn't go through, so at least it's not a conspiracy to stop the Neins.
For those of you who haven't gotten it yet, you can't vote. Allow me to reiterate...
YOU
CAN
NOT
FRELLING
VOTE
!
!
1
1!1
seriously though, almost as soon as pz linked to the website the error message showed up. No voting for ye, little pharyngulans.
yeah, that's called "winging it". your wife was lucky she only had a mild infection (and by mild I don't mean the symptoms)
???
Olly is playing the typical game of the pseudoscientist. By pretending that by saying "No" to "alternative medicine" we mean that nothing in it could ever be of any worth at all (never mind that some conventional medicine comes from formerly "alternative medicine"--look at artemensin), he can cling to his little fantasies of persecution.
It's what the IDiots do as well, take the admissions of agnosticism and some ignorance out of context as if we've admitted that evolution is wrong, then turn around and scream that we're in fact close-minded.
Tard-boy Ollie, intelligent grown-ups understand how to say "Ja" or "Nein" to categories, without thereby indicating that no exceptions exist. I've seen people screw up their health with "alternative medicine," yet I appreciate when the government or industry puts alternative medicines to the test to find out what might actually work, and what does not.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
[Ben Stein]
Atheist professor PZ Myers believes in Charles Darwin. And now he wants German people to follow his instructions.
You know who else led German people? Hitler.
[cut to Stein weeping at Auschwitz]
[/Ben Stein]
@44
My mistake I didn't see that or understand the context in which they were using "alternative medicine" I agree praying is not going to help ever but there are many medicines that are rejected by the medical community that because they are "alternative" meaning there not being slung by a pharm rep.
Medicine is a hard thing since there is so much misinformation on both sides.
Why are there so amny monkies in pharyngula lately? The reverend (big dumb chimp), old monkeyshine, screechy monkey... is this some kind of ape uprising?
Well,I'm not a monkey, but my granddaddy was.
@ 56
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071113132240.htm
What ever you want to call it it worked. So what do mean by mild?
If it was an your attempt at humor you might want to keep that to a minimum...........Not your strong suit
I would tend to argue that the category "Alternative Medicine" is stupidly broad and undefined. I agree with Monkeyshine (#54).
I mean, it's like "Alternative Rock" or "Alternative Sport" or something. WTF does "alternative" even mean? Not mainstream?
By mild i meant the actual bacterial infection was, hence the cranberries helped. the symptoms for all i know might have been severe.
and you didn't actually read the article you linked to, did you? preventing ≠ curing.
your wife got cured of an infection mild enough to be cured by an unknown dose of a potential anti-bacterial with an unknown minimum working dose. my co-worker had a more serious UTI. you can't tell by yourself how bad it is except by waiting long enough to make it worse, and you can't know the dose required to get healthy, so you're gambling with your health.
On the off chance that really was Ben Stein at #58, do I really need to point out that once someone brings up Hitler, all sensible discussion is over. It's just name-calling.
And yeah, acupuncture, yoga and etc. are all crap. They might make you feel better, but they won't cure anything. Kind of like praying.
I have a very cheap drug. Utterly safe, can be used in a number of dosage levels against a whole host of minor ailments. Its effects have been proven time and time again, but only at a 30% level. The name of the drug is Placebo. Placebo is the gold standard drug that all alternative medicine should be compared to (and they usually match the performance). And best of all, Placebo is not owned by any large pharma company. Better known as a teaspoon full of sugar and wait 7 days.
Nerd, all the related material I'm familiar with on the use of sugar in medicine indicates that it's only effective as a placebo when dispensed by the spoonful immediately following the ingestion of a foul-tasting substance.
What was the doctor's name? Poppins? Does that sound right? Mary Poppins MD, PhD?
Did anyone note the name of one of the panelists?
Dorothea Fuckert
Since most ailments, like the sore back I had after scraping my iced over windshield Monday morning, are self limiting, anything one does to "help" it will be effective. Like today, my back is fine. Placebo, the wonder drug. Available at a grocery store near you.
Side effects may include an English accent and breaking into song at odd moments.
Not recommend for non-self limiting problems or diabetics.
Do sacharine tablets work for diabetics?
Yes saccharine, aspartame (Nutrasweet), or sucralose (Splenda) would work as well for diabetics. Same active ingredient as is found in sugar, sucrose, dextrose, maltose, glucose, trehalose, mannose, etc. Placebo, 30% active against all minor complaints. Available locally at a store near you.
When you say alternative meds, do you guys mean all those "herbal supplement" stuff that's usually on display at the counter in drug stores?
I'm coming from a Chinese background, so I've had my share of herbal remedies when I was a kid. Most of the time it was just for helping upset stomachs or slight fevers, though my parents always brought me to a professional doctor for anything more serious.
I will say this much: the stuff I remember taking in my childhood, and still take, are nothing like that crap in the stores. Even then, it was meant as a supplement for more serious medicine like antibiotics.
Keep note I'm not from Germany, so feel free to correct me if the alternative meds in this discussion are not the ones I was implying.
Placebo contains the same active ingredient as most alternative medicines. The desire to do something to get well. Activity on seen in suggestible individuals or with self-limiting conditions.
Your results may vary. (Too many drug commercials on TV these days. Time to stop channeling them.)
Then how do you know it was doing anything? Generally, if you want to prove to someone that a cure works, you're going to have to isolate the variables.
I mean, every time I went to the doctor to get antibiotics as a child, I had a long drive, had to enter the hospital, and then tell the doctor about my symptoms. I would be mistaken to conclude that any of these things aside from the antibiotics did a damn thing for bacterial infections.
If you claim that your alternative medicine was different, and more authentic, it should work on its own. If it must be taken in conjunction with real medicine, you're probably just observing the effects of the real medicine.
@Matt, Sexual Jihadist
Mostly a combination of herbal teas and the occasional body rub. The doctor recommended them when I was sick to help promote sweating and urination to help flush the body of toxins. Some of the herbs, especially the body rubs, acted as muscle relaxants.
It did a good job helping me relax while the doc's prescriptions did their work.
I love that they use the term "believe in alternative medicine" because the alternative medicine has no real observable and testable effects so is subscribers are forced to just believe.
Twin-Skies,
What toxins?
Maybe there's opportunity to be devious here and have some fun. Why not invent a bunch of disgusting alternative medicine cures and see how much you can make of them.
For example invent a "cure" like mouse turds dipped in olive oil for curing cancer. Then put up a website, blog, and fake scientific reports, and fake testimonials ("mouse turds in olive oil cured my toenail cancer!"). See how many people you can get flim flammed on this stuff and then tell the truth.
Let me rephrase that - they helped as a diuretic to help flush bodily waste.
@Brett
Exactly!!!
This is what's driving me mad about my country, it's pretty secular, but most people "believe" in either homeopathy, astrology, or some other woo.
I even know a scientist (physics/chemistry I kid you not) who "believes" in TCM.
I could rant for hours about this, but I'll just make it short and say "Scheisse!!!"
how embarrassing for us Germans!
It is 2008 and not Anno 1408
One should think by now hocospocus gave way to Reason......
Germany does seem to have issues with alternative medicine cropping up in scientific journals. It's pretty disconcerting, coming from a country with such a strong scientific and mathematical background.
So what do you believe is "alternate medicine" Herbalism? Homeopathy? Washing my nose out with a neti pot? Doing meditation for relaxation? It depends what you are refering to. Homeopathy is nonsense that can't even work in principle. Herbs on the other hand could have some medicinal effect. That doesn't mean that they do, only that they could. Or could be harmful. Neti pots seem to help my allergies quite a bit. Meditation is something I like doing.
Opium from poppies.
Digitalis from milkweed.
Quinine from chinchona bark.
All the above are mainstream medicines.
Any herb can become a mainstream medication once it has been proven effective.
Treatments are proven when they pass peer review and have some degree of replication by independent practitioners.
If something is termed "alternative," that means "not yet proven effective with adequate controls."
It's the independent peer review thing that separates medicine from alt-medicine.
Large multinational pharmaceutical companies have subsidiaries that manufacture products for the alternative med markets.
A netipot isn't "medicine", it's just a thing for washing your nose with salty water.
Same with meditation, it's just a way to deeply relax.
That's the thing with "alternative" medicine, they elevate anything that can feel pleasant to this status of "medicine".
I'm pretty sure that much of what we call "alternative medicine" in the US is mainstream in Germany. They're more likely to take a standardized dose of hypericum instead of a pharmaceutical anti-depressant, for instance, or use arnica gel on sore muscles. So when they're talking about alternative medicine, they're getting into the really woo-woo stuff, not basic natural remedies.
"A netipot isn't "medicine", it's just a thing for washing your nose with salty water."
Last time I checked Saline solution is "Medicinal" That's why walgreens also sells it in little bottles. It's not a "drug" though
"Same with meditation, it's just a way to deeply relax.
Stress relief is certainly medically beneficial.
That's the thing with "alternative" medicine, they elevate anything that can feel pleasant to this status of "medicine".
So seem to think that claiming to relieve stress and get pollen out of your sinus is the same as claiming to cure cancer with an unproven treatment.
I think there might be a peripheral yet very important issue lurking here: we wouldn't need so much medicine (e.g. antibiotics) if we kept healthy (e.g. good, fresh food).
The damage that synthetic meds do to us might be causing a swing towards these 'placebos' (although there may be no such thing as the *placebo effect* - we'll wait and see).
@Pikemann Urge
I couldn't agree more. Spent four months doing heavy running and calinstethics as part of my Arnis/Eskrima training, and have sworn of junk food (save for the occasional soda) leading to a weight loss of 30 lbs in three months.
Been practicing regularly (though not as intensely) for three years since, including weight lifting and cycling. End result - My allergies are nearly gone, and have gotten sick once to twice per year.
Being a German is so embarassing.
I hate that show. It was an unbalanced discussion about alternative healing.
Pikemann Urge @90:
Yes! Thank you for bringing this up!
What's the point of crashing such a poll?
Ced @94, the usual. These polls are intended to support a point of view by appeal to popularity, but really they're meaningless because they ignore sample bias.
Having lived in Germany for longer than I care to admit, the only thing that surprises me in this link is that there are prominent people who are prepared to stand up and be counted against "alternative medicine". I have bitten my tongue many a time to avoid social death (e.g. the end of a great skiing trip with people who I otherwise like).
That the WDR, which is one of the mainstream publicly funded TV channels should set up such a loaded "debate" is disgraceful. But then even our own dear SZ (Süddeutsche Zeitung), impeccably high-browed and liberal, has had three articles over the last couple of years very favourable to homoeopathy...I suspect one of their staff has business interests, which is of course behind much of this.
yours self-convicted of hypocrisy, moral cowardice, etc, etc..
See, as said in the Rick Warren thread, we Europeans can be just as stupid as yanks.
@Enshoku: yup, they're cheating. As soon as a wave of votes came in for 'our' position, they yanked it and reset the votes to the levels of before we found it. Obviously this poll wasn't put online to inquire (however unscientifically) about people's opinions, but to support a pre-determined viewpoint. So they're not just idiots, they're dishonest idiots as well.
I wanted to vote, but I couldn't get past the name "Dorothea Fuckert".
What am I? Twelve?
Hypericum or arnica gel might be mainstream or alternative, depending upon whether there are published, controlled studies in reputable, peer reviewed journals documenting their efficacy.
All that matters is efficacy. All else is marketing and manipulation.
Don't be distracted by words like "natural" or "herbal" or "wholistic." Think "efficacy" and you will be a smarter consumer.
"Olly is playing the typical game of the pseudoscientist. By pretending that by saying "No" to "alternative medicine" we mean that nothing in it could ever be of any worth at all (never mind that some conventional medicine comes from formerly "alternative medicine"--look at artemensin), he can cling to his little fantasies of persecution.
It's what the IDiots do as well, take the admissions of agnosticism and some ignorance out of context as if we've admitted that evolution is wrong, then turn around and scream that we're in fact close-minded.
Tard-boy Ollie, intelligent grown-ups understand how to say "Ja" or "Nein" to categories, without thereby indicating that no exceptions exist. I've seen people screw up their health with "alternative medicine," yet I appreciate when the government or industry puts alternative medicines to the test to find out what might actually work, and what does not.
Glen D
Thanks for elevating the discourse here. I'm not "pretending" anything, nor do I have "little fantasies of persecution." All I'm saying is:
1. As this discussion shows, "alternative medicine" clearly means different things to different people.
2. Some "alternative" treatments have been tested scientifically and shown to be ineffctive. Great! They don't work. No worries there.
3. Others have not been tested; financially, there's little incentive to. In the absence of this testing, can you really be sure that, say, a meditation program might not ease progress through chemotherapy? That an herbal tea might not ease cold symptoms? Where's your proof?
4. I've never said alternative medicine should be a substitute for standard treatment. I don't believe that. However, I don't believe it's inherently ridiculous to "believe in the effectiveness of alternative medicine." That's a pretty vague standard, and it could include relaxed muscles, improved diet, physiological benefits of meditation, etc.
5. "Tard-boy?" That's incredibly demeaning. I hope you don't have friends or family with special needs that you refer to that way.
Olly, re your point number 3. The burden of proof is to show that the herbal tea is more effective that taking a spoon full of sugar (PlaceboTM). It's where the burden of proof must lie. That is the difference between MSM and quacks. Quacks say "prove me wrong". It's not that hard to prove yourself right, but the quacks are simply afraid even to try as they might lose all the money from their quackery.
I agree. I just don't think that hostile, outright dismissal is the best response. It's not beyond incredulity that some of these things might work.
More than anything, I suppose I'm engaging the tone of the original discussion. It is not self-evident that anything labeled "alternative medicine" is hocus-pocus and bullshit. But that's the assumption that's been presented here.
References to being a "pseudoscientist," "IDiot," and "tard-boy" don't engage any of the arguments raised on this page. Instead, they encourage an echo chamber.
Olly, so basically you stated an off-topic opinion (since this thread is about magic healing, not about non-pharma wellness treatments), ignored all the posts that explained that Standard Issue Medicine doesn't ignore potential sources of medicine, ignored all the posts explaining the consequences of too much trust in the "alternative" treatments, ignored the posts that explained why some of those things you listed work (every posts with the word "placebo" in it), and then you're complaining about being treated badly?
you're not very smart, are you...
Simple question: Do you think "tard-boy" is an acceptable response?
Other comments:
1. "This thread is about magic healing, not about non-pharma wellness treatments"
Per your definition. That's not specified in the initial header. Indeed, that's the very distinction I was trying to make from the beginning!
2. "Ignored all the posts that explained that Standard Issue Medicine doesn't ignore potential sources of medicine."
I've read every post here. Some highlight that "Standard Issue Medicine" incorporates proven components of "Alternative Medicine." However, it's also clear that people posting here have their own definitions of "standard" and "alternative" with some overlap. Again, the point I'm trying to make.
3. "ignored all the posts explaining the consequences of too much trust in the "alternative" treatments,ignored the posts that explained why some of those things you listed work (every posts with the word "placebo" in it)"
Ironic that I've been the one criticized with: "Tard-boy Ollie, intelligent grown-ups understand how to say "Ja" or "Nein" to categories, without thereby indicating that no exceptions exist."
A simple response:
A. Just because some people put too much trust in "alternative medicine" to the detriment of their health doesn't mean it as, as a category, ineffective. That's the original premise the post started with, with no further clarification.
B. Medicines classified as "alternative" may, in some circumstances, have efficacy beyond the placebo effect. Studies have shown benefits linked to meditation.
I provided two other plausible examples--Can you really be sure that, say, a meditation program might not ease progress through chemotherapy? That an herbal tea might not ease cold symptoms? Where's your proof?
Unless you've done the study, you don't know anything. That goes both ways.
"You're not very smart, are you..."
Oh noes! You've shot me through with holes, there!
you deal often enough with people unwilling to have an actual discussion, you stop being polite to anyone who exhibits those qualities. please note that there has been a number of well-reasoned responses to you before people started calling you names. at this point though you've shown you're just trolling, and deserve being treated like a troll.
"Just trolling?"
Ha! The all-purpose dismissal. You're right, I'm not making a good-faith effort to urge caution in defining ambiguous categories. I'm not presenting an "alternative" viewpoint. I'm "trolling." I deserve all of the "tard-boys" I get and more.
dude, no. every post after #22 that STILL talks about wellness methods as if they're the "alternative medicine" in question is obfuscation. and please note that people who can't read the original were smart enough to ASK before spewing concerned nonsense. again, no one here disputes wellness effects, placebo or real ones. but you're not participating in discussion, you're concern trolling. concern trolling is the lowest form of trolling right after godbotting.
I'm actually curious what people think about acupuncture; I went on a trip to Shanghai as a translator for a group of US doctors visiting a hospital there. One of the things that the doctors were most impressed with was the attitude of the Chinese medical system towards pain, especially chronic pain. Acupuncture and massage under marijuana (they wouldn't have called it that, but the smell of burning cannabis is really unmistakeable) were used extensively in lieu of what we US people would call pharmaceutical drugs, and this treatment occupied an entire ward of the hospital.
I pose a question because I find myself slightly confused/hesitant about how to approach this: How would you go about gauging the "efficacy" of such treatment, given that the line between chronic pain and a placebo effect is really murky in the first place? Is there any good way to approach this in a scientifically sound manner?
Some Responses (Original Posts in Bold)
Olly, a healthy diet, the effects of certain plants (like, you know, the ones Western Medicine derives it's active compounds from), exercise and stress-relief are basic parts of Standard Issue Medicine.
everything else is scientifically useless, and occasionally even dangerous, woo.
Well, how do you define "certain plants"? Is marijuana a "certain plant" right now? Because it certainly has some active components.
True. It's a bullshit term. If medicine works, it's not alternative. It's just medicine.
That's a semantic argument.
Olly, when people believe in Alternative Medicine more or the same as in Standard Issue Medicine, you get situations like in Africa, where witchdoctors convinced people that the polio vaccine sterilizes girls. Or, closer to home, where people are scared into believing that vaccines can cause autism and either don't vaccinate or use dangerous but useless "treatments" like chelation.
Or people drink chamomile tea when they have an upset stomach. This isn't a binary situation.
Olly McPherson: Yoga is medicine the same way that cutlery is a food group. I love yoga, and practice it every day, but I do it because it's a pleasant form of exercise that makes me feel physically good and mentally calm, not because I think it'll cure my cancer/emphysema/genital warts.
All forms of exercise benefit your health, but you don't see anyone calling, say, swimming "an alternative water-based therapy".
Yes you do. There are rehabilitation-medicine programs built around swimming. As for not curing your cancer/emphysema/genital warts, well, aspirin doesn't do that either, so it must not be medicine. Again, we're looking at a semantic difference here. What if yoga were shown to enhance the immune response? Would that be medicine?
And Olly, yes, something that was originally under the heading of "alternative medicine" might become legitimized after testing, but that doesn't legitimize alternative medicine in the slightest, because the issue is WHY a certain medicine/technique works.
The foundation of medicine is science, and science is a METHOD. "Alternative medicine" is just as much a faith-based religion as Christianity--if some remedy that practitioners/believers happen to advocate turns out to be legitimate, it's coincidental. In fact, the reason some "alternative therapy" might work is because alternative practitioners have no standards or methodology, so they'll try ANYTHING--and of course some of it might happen to work, but again, only by coincidence.
Show me an example where science has legitimized not only the efficacy of a certain formerly-alternative technique but also fully validated the alternative explanation for WHY it works. Meditation may work to calm a person and clear his mind, but it's not because his chakra is being aligned with All-knowing Oneness, or whatever the bullshit "alternative" reason is.
Are you seeing that we know WHY all standard medical treatments work? At a molecular level? I don't think that's true. Now if you're saying that a double-blind standard is the standard that should be followed, I agree.
This doesn't seem so far fetched to me: A traditional "alternative" remedy works. People have no idea how it works. Researchers investigate and determine the method. Yay! But, that doesn't mean that the remedy didn't work before the researchers arrived.
But yes, unfortuately, "alternative" medicine is so full of woo as to be useless. They hide themselves from scientific scrutiny and are not rigorously tested, or indeed tested at all - just read the discalimers and small print. Sigh, magic just doesn't work, even for poor Kristin ;)
Agreed--there are a lot of quacks out there. That if unfortunate, and they should be deplored. But there also isn't funding to test a lot of treatments, and it's arrogant to think that all traditional remedies are worthless.
My mistake I didn't see that or understand the context in which they were using "alternative medicine" I agree praying is not going to help ever but there are many medicines that are rejected by the medical community that because they are "alternative" meaning there not being slung by a pharm rep.
Medicine is a hard thing since there is so much misinformation on both sides.
Agreed
Opium from poppies.
Digitalis from milkweed.
Quinine from chinchona bark.
All the above are mainstream medicines.
Any herb can become a mainstream medication once it has been proven effective.
Treatments are proven when they pass peer review and have some degree of replication by independent practitioners.
If something is termed "alternative," that means "not yet proven effective with adequate controls."
It's the independent peer review thing that separates medicine from alt-medicine.
Large multinational pharmaceutical companies have subsidiaries that manufacture products for the alternative med markets.
Agreed
Jadehawk, I don't agree with you. That doesn't make me a concern troll or "not smart enough" (there you go again!). I don't have to agree with you.
Freshman comp students understand that making a statement isn't the same as convincing someone of its truth.
Believing that your definition of things is the universal definition is the height of arrogance. Why, is almost seems religious!
The bolding didn't carry beyond the first paragraph. I'm sorry for the muddle.
Olly, if I have a cold, I can dose myself with OTC medicine, alternative medicine, home remedies, or just suffer through it. Guess what, in 3-14 days I will be cured no matter which treatment method I use. They all work! Or the cold is self limiting.
If the home remedies work, they can easily be proven against a placebo. Not a hard study to set up and run, although compliance can be difficult. But most home remedies have been/will be shown to be just "caring" or a placebo effect.
Nerd of Redhead
I agree entirely. But, there may be a home remedy that works. You don't know until you do the study.
Again, I don't use any home remedies. I wouldn't spend any money on them. But they're not "inherently" false because of their origins.
What an incredibly stupid, annoying argument.