Soldiers with attitude

Warning: there is crude language and blasphemy in this clip!

You posting this video is one of the 10 worst things ever to happen to Christianity.

One word: Awesome!

Too bad this is just a character in a TV show. That's one vet I would love to sit down and discuss war stories with. If only all the military had this attitude we could get rid of chaplains.

Militant atheists!

But seriously, this clip portrays Christians as nearly a minority in the military. From everything I've read, this is wishful fiction. Christians, even fanatical ones, wield quite a bit of power and influence in the armed forces. If only life were like an HBO miniseries.

I think the commentary on the utility of chaplains really hits home.

I remember watching this right around the time many stories where coming out about the religionification of the US military.
This and something else I read once suggest the elite long term-ers like this often have little interest in such things. I wonder if it has any cost for them. Raw recruits seem to get a lot of it.

I don't have anything insightful to say. All I've got is HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!111!!!oneone!!!!!!!

H.H. @ #4

That can't be true. If that were true, then us Christians could not possibly be a persecuted minority. Since we obviously are a persecuted minority, then logic dictates that we can't have any power or influence. And we're more than willing to use all of our substantial power and influence to prove it to you. HA! FACE! I WIN AGAIN! PURE LOGIC BABY!!!

Men of war have always been hard, for they have seen just how bad we can be in extremis. My father fought in World War Two and Korea. He rarely talked about it. Very few combat veterans ever talk about it. You learn quickly how transient life can be, and easily shattered. Friends die and dreams with them, and family takes on an importance you never knew it could. Atheist or not, your life takes on a spirituality no civilian can ever understand or appreciate, no matter how religious he professes to be.

There are exceptions, but in my experience most combat veterans are more patient, more tolerant, quieter than men who have not been to war. Not just soldiers; surgeons, firemen, policemen who have been in crisis situations. Facing death and winning through changes a man. Consider Orac for example, a man who deals with situations in surgery most of us have no real understanding of. Hold another's life in your hand, whether he lives or dies, and it will remake you.

It isn't conservatism that marks the soldier, it's gravitas.

Both Alexander Skarsgård (the guy without the shirt) and his more famous father Stellan Skarsgård (Mamma Mia, Entourage) are fairly outspoken atheists.
I wonder if they have anything to do with the writing in this particular scene. I know Stellan visited the set and have a bit of influence.

More than 20% of US military personnel agree with the sentiments expressed in the clip. Maybe the draft should be brought back!

@3, 4: Keep in mind this is based on a non-fiction book (by an embedded reporter from Rolling Stone, who is name-checked in the clip).

So the soldier's atheist attitude may very well be accurate (I haven't read the book, but I recall it was supposed to be closely followed by the series' creators). Certainly what he says is logical.

Generation Kill wasn't just great television. It was also based very heavily on the actual experiences of the soldiers depicted in the show. In fact, one of the actors was actually playing himself, Sgt. Rodolfo "Rudy" Reyes. Check out the wiki page for more on the show. There's also an Utne interview with director Susanna White.

Generation Kill and Band of Brothers should be required viewing in high schools, to help keep things fair and balanced... what with recruiters around campuses selling magic beans and all.

Awesome awesome awesome!!! Almost worth subscribing to HBO just for that.

This kind of denigration of Christians in everyday life who have done nothing personally to provoke it serves no purpose other than self-congratulatory satisfaction, giving atheists a bad rep, and perpetuating the myth that Christians are a persecuted minority. Admittedly, I can see how it could be satisfying, but it's also mean and unjustified, and even if that doesn't deter you, I would argue that the consequence of reinforcing the idea that Christians are a persecuted minority in the U.S. is not worth the personal satisfaction.

It's one thing to respond to hate mail with ridicule or to jokingly discuss the absurdities of anothers' belief with like-minded people (Christians commonly do it to Mormons, Scientologists, etc.), but to mock and berate a polite Christian offering a well-intentioned invitation as was done in the video seems to me to be cruel and counterproductive.

I don't know what it is like NOW since the religious right has been making a concerted effort to infiltrate and repurpose the military, but when I was in there were plenty of us who had no use for religious ceremony. In boot I opted to stay behind on Sundays instead of going to service so the red ropes made me clean the barracks as a punishment I guess. By the next week there were half a dozen other guys cleaning with me. By months end fourteen.

Better to use my hands to work than my lips to pray.

to mock and berate a polite Christian offering a well-intentioned invitation as was done in the video seems to me to be cruel and counterproductive.

That's what PZ was going for when he directed the series.

lets hear it for "Brad" !!!

I have never been able to understand the contradiction of a christian soldier?

Not Amused, you really ought to watch the whole show. The marines talk like that about just about everything, never missing a chance to throw in cruel jokes and crude similies (and yes, reportedly the dialogue is almost chapter and verse, so to speak, from the book).

I have never been able to understand the contradiction of a christian soldier?

Me either. But I guess that the true meaning of Christianity is that you're free to claim that you follow Jesus without doing any of the things he told people they needed to do in order to follow him.

Someone should make up a word for that. Oh, wait - they already did: hypocrisy.

Not amused wrote:

This kind of denigration of Christians in everyday life who have done nothing personally to provoke it serves no purpose other than self-congratulatory satisfaction, giving atheists a bad rep, and perpetuating the myth that Christians are a persecuted minority. Admittedly, I can see how it could be satisfying, but it's also mean and unjustified, and even if that doesn't deter you, I would argue that the consequence of reinforcing the idea that Christians are a persecuted minority in the U.S. is not worth the personal satisfaction.

Christians are not a minority in the U.S., let alone a persecuted minority. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either stupid or promoting a personal agenda (ex: Bill Donohue). Christians are a majority who wield a great deal of power. Yet you feel a 2 minute dramatization of a few atheists standing up to one Christian crosses the line and hurts the image of atheists? Are you insane? How then, exactly, are atheists ever supposed to gain ground if merely having non-religious characters challenge a Christian in a TV show actually reinforces Christianity? What do you propose we atheists should do, just wait out this Christianity fad??? I have news for you. That strategy hasn't worked for about two millennia and counting. You think standing up to them is counterproductive? I think advocating non-confrontation to be about the worst strategy imaginable. They need to be challenged and shaken out of their stupor, not coddled.

It's one thing to respond to hate mail with ridicule or to jokingly discuss the absurdities of anothers' belief with like-minded people (Christians commonly do it to Mormons, Scientologists, etc.), but to mock and berate a polite Christian offering a well-intentioned invitation as was done in the video seems to me to be cruel and counterproductive.

A poison merchant can be as well-intentioned and polite as they like, but they're still selling poison. And they should be sent packing under no uncertain terms.

So much male skin... I mean charisma, before nine o'clock in the morning in ice-cold Scandinavia and then they even say sensible things - It's almost too much for 40-year old lady with morning coffee in hand.
Do you remember the post with the young lady on Youtube who said spot-on things about atheism? You guys could hardly concentrate on her words because of a cleavage.
Guys! it works both ways, and I think I need to watch this later today to errrhhmmmm... understand all aspects of the discussion ;-)

If there was a god that was a kind loving father, he would not allow his children to fight and kill one another.

If there was a god that was a kind loving father he would not allow his children to be killed by tsunamis, hurricanes, or some other gods children flying planes into buildings.

If there was a god that was a kind loving father, he would not allow women to die in childbirth, he would not allow children to die of cancer, he would not have made my grandfather die....

Do I need to go on? You dumbass godists can fuck off. There is no god.

Now come on, give us your tired old free will arguement and all the other worthless arguments for god we've heard 200 times before. Bring on your bible, you've got nothing else.

As funny as that was, it was kind of rude. But still, it's a TV show, it's supposed to be rude and funny. Can't say I approve of all that "we're warriors" crap, though. I think that's just the conscientious.... coward in me talking.

I've never understood Christian warriors either. Jesus (supposedly) said "Blessed are the peacemongers" and that his followers should turn the other cheek. He was a pacifist hippie not a tin-pot general that wanted to invade countries for looking at him funny.

Ahem! *puts on a screechy, grotty voice*

"Noo! He said blessed are the cheesemakers!"

Patricia, I think you are projecting a deity you would accept. You know that the deity of the bible is a blood thirsty monster.

Before I twirl off to beddy-bye, a couple of verses for you bible loving gawd soaked idiots. *yawn* I know what you will say about Jesus and gawds love... *yawn*

Family values: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sister, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

The Prince of Peace Jesus: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and a daughter against her mother and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. Matthew 10:34-36

Takes one to know one, and I KNOW YOU WELL.

Brava! You just pulled out the monster!

Janine - Well Loved Friend, maaaaybe. I would love to have MY all loving father looking after us all. Hugs and kisses for everyone!

The gawd of the bible, har! He isn't even as decent as Zeus.

Having read the book, there a few things worth saying. The real soldiers made similar comments. However, it is also worth noting that their ideal person is a sociopathic killer.

Personally, I also think the younger generation is -- for lack of more appropriate words -- fucked up in some ways. (I say this as a twenty year old, by the way.) I won't rail on videogames or rap music because I honestly think people nowadays are exposed to real, raw violence on the internet. You can find videos of people shooting themselves, being hit by cars, or being beheaded, all with the greatest ease. It isn't that we enjoy it, it's just that we don't have to think about it -- you can let it be just an image, and say you've seen it before. You can make your mind up about it the same way as anything else that you don't actually associate with pain or negative emotions.

If you read the book, you'd see this sort of thing. Plenty of jokes about killing, killing civilians (one soldier earns a nickname for shooting a kid), and so on. I think the author put it well when he wrote something to the effect of: "These are not the soldiers of world war II. They wouldn't even recognize eachother."

I don't think they're necessarily bad people. Certainly their choice of job required being willing to harm people and to not be bothered about it. Just something to note about their overall character. I don't mind that they're atheists (if they are), but I'm a bit wary of actually being -happy- that they're atheists (if they are).

I never understood christian anything.

Luke 14:26;Matthew 10:34-36

I'm not impressed with over-literal, single-verse stingers from fundies, and I'm not impressed with them from atheists, either.

Can you tell us what Luke 14:26 and Matthew 10:34-36 really mean please?

Auguste, #33

You might want to start believing in God - and asking him for protection - if you're going to be foolish enough to disparage Patricia OM's scriptural knowledge.

She'll turn you into so much chicken feed.

But as far as I can tell, that's accurate quotation of scripture. What's the problem?

You might want to start believing in God - and asking him for protection - if you're going to be foolish enough to disparage Patricia OM's scriptural knowledge.

It's quite disconcerting that Patrica was a hardcore Christian for twice as long as I have been alive.

It's quite disconcerting that Patrica was a hardcore Christian for twice as long as I have been alive.

Indeed - well, a bit less than twice for me, but still a long time, relatively speaking.

But it gives me hope that everyone has the potential to be freed from the shackles of irrationality. And, unlike many so-called atheist conversion stories, deconversion stories are told by people who are still alive.

TrineDK wrote:

[...]You guys could hardly concentrate on her words because of a cleavage.

Ah! Strong with this one, the stupid is!

Indeed - well, a bit less than twice for me, but still a long time, relatively speaking.

I've always wondered what the ages of people are on here. Most online places I frequent are around my age group (early to mid 20s), this place however seems to have a lot of people who are a lot older than I am, though it's hardly noticeable. It might just be projection bias on my part but to me everyone here is 25 :P

Wow, ridicule of Christianity on American TV. Christianity is in big trouble now. Wouldn't it be great if the disgusting Christian death cult was completely eradicated. Nothing is more effective than relentless ridicule. I hope to see more of this in the future. People should point at Christians and laugh at them, and keep laughing at them until they're ashamed to admit they're Christians.

Not Amused

Like many believers you think the default position ought to be one where we act as if belief and the sensitivities of believers takes precedence over non believers.
You speak as if believers need to be tiptoed and treated with kid gloves. All I can ask is why?
If I find religion and the religious ridiculous, then why can't I express this?
believers think I'm going to burn in hell for eternity and think they have a right and an obligation to let me know this, no matter how offensive I find that particular belief.

"Posted by: Archaneus | January 8, 2009 1:57 AM

Too bad this is just a character in a TV show. That's one vet I would love to sit down and discuss war stories with. If only all the military had this attitude we could get rid of chaplains."

OI!!! I resemble that remark !!

Posted by: Patricia, OM | January 8, 2009 3:48 AM
Before you start the bible quotes on Family values, it might behove you to remember where you are, most here know the bible far better than you

Family values: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sister, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

Matthew 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

What terrific family values right there

I can find more evil in the Bible than I can in just about any other book short of the Koran

There are exceptions, but in my experience most combat veterans are more patient, more tolerant, quieter than men who have not been to war. - Alan Kellogg

That sounds like a bunch of crap to me. Ex-service personnel have high rates of alcoholism, drug-addiction, depression, psychosis, suicide, domestic violence, homelessness and imprisonment. War fucks you up.

War fucks you up.

I'm sure former Pharyngula regular and Molly winner brokensoldier would have no problem backing up this particular claim.

As for me, well, I'd probably have two brothers alive today if one of them hadn't come back fucked-up from Vietnam; my father may well have stayed the cheerful, charming man my aunts and uncles say he was before he went to Korea - rather than the ill-tempered, antisocial near-alcoholic he became.

I have never been able to understand the contradiction of a christian soldier?

Me either. But I guess that the true meaning of Christianity is that you're free to claim that you follow Jesus without doing any of the things he told people they needed to do in order to follow him.
Someone should make up a word for that. Oh, wait - they already did: hypocrisy.

Actually, I always thought the completely fucking ridiculous contradictions in christianity were one of its few saving graces. It started as an millenarian, world-rejecting cult that said "Don't have anything to do this world, it's wars or it's politics or it's family life" and it became the official state doctrine of militaristic empires and "family values". That gives followers a tiny bit of wiggle room to question doctrines (whence came the endless schisms and even rejections of the whole religion).

If you compare it to islam - made for conquest and conservative values from the start and AFAIK fairly consist in them - hypocrisy starts looking like a virtue.

If you compare it to islam - made for conquest and conservative values from the start and AFAIK fairly consist in them - hypocrisy starts looking like a virtue.

I've thought a bit about this before, and I was wondering if it's more to do with the society that adheres to the religion than the religion itself - since, for example, in much of Europe, where Christianity was at one time just as inflexible, religiosity is declining.

And don't forget Christianity has a 600 year head-start; what, exactly, were the Christians of the 1400s like? All smiles and sunshine?

Should Islam continue within more progressive societies then I suspect it will undergo a 'watering down' not unlike Christianity. Heck, there are already liberal (by our standards) Muslims out there.

However, it is also worth noting that their ideal person is a sociopathic killer.

Be aware that not all of us hold this view, any more than all of us are conservative. And do try to recall that a certain amount of desensitizing behavior takes place in line infantry units and in the SOF component units. The jokes; the demeaning of weakness; the perceived glorification of death; the perceptions of what constitutes honor. The job is to kick in the doors and break people. You need to be in a certain headspace to do be able to do that, and that headspace makes little sense in any other environment. If you haven't been in the infantry or in a SOF unit, then you're probably not going to understand. And I think it's beyond my skill with the written word to effectively describe it.

And that being said, yes, war does fuck you up. Especially those conflicts where children are mixed in among the combatants. Don't think so? Go spend a few months in the sandbox. You will not be the same person when you come home.

Great news just announced on CNN about the Gaza situation.
It won't be long now till its sorted.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/01/07/joe-the-plumber-headed-…
"Wurzelbacher told WNWO he's not worried about the potential dangers of his new gig. "Being a Christian I'm pretty well protected by God I believe. That's not saying he's going to stop a mortar for me, but you gotta take the chance,"

Wowbagger @47: First IANA historian so this might be badly though out.

I'm not sure I by the "headstart" thing. I've heard it a lot, but it seems to rely on the development of cultures under a particular religion undergoing a linear development which starts with they founding of the religion. I don't see any reason why this should be true, and I think history suggests it isn't.

I do how ever take your point, and agree, that the differences between predominately muslim societies and historically-christian western ones doesn't come down entirely (or even mainly) to the content of the religions themselves.

On the other hand the contradictions in established christianity were what produced a lot of progressive, free-thinking and liberal movements in Europe (and later the Americas and elsewhere). When the Diggers rejected violence and government and ownership, they could reasonably claim they were doing what Jesus would have wanted. Christianity really wasn't built for stable governments; it wasn't really built to give any sustainable way of living, in fact, since the original christians expected to see the end times. Hence attempts to square it with traditional authority damaged both in ways that ended up helping freedom.

As I understand it Mohammed was himself a ruler and a warrior and specifically spoke against the family-rejecting "monkery" and anti-authoritarian trends in early christianity when he wrote his Koran.

@13 WTF, you mean the one character that's super buff and good looking is the only one that's not an actor, and just the actual guy?

Best part is I had my iTunes on while watching, and Intervention by The Arcade Fire came on.

Inane and stupid as the word is, I think it properly describes my reaction: I lolled.

Knockgoats, #44

Do you know the difference between knowledge and conviction? The fucked up are noticeable, the fucked up stand out. I grew up at a time when hundreds of thousands of men had gone through combat. I grew up at a time when crime was much lower, as was social strife and other indicators of civil unrest. I never said combat veterans don't have problems, I said that most combat veterans come through showing certain effects. I know traumatic stress from personal experience, most of us are quiet, withdrawn, and refuse the limelight regardless of the exact type of stress we experienced.

Never confuse the loud for the majority.

Um, guys - this clip isn't about atheism. This clip is about the attitude that combat soldiers have towards non-combat soldiers who serve in the front lines. It's right there at the end: the sergeant dislikes the lieutenant-colonel because the officer doesn't even carry a gun to help out with the fighting. When the unit is attacked, combat soldiers have to try and protect the chaplain, thus lowering the unit's combat effectiveness and increasing the likelihood that some of the soldiers will be injured or killed.

The sergeant, whilst atheist, dislikes the priest not because he is a priest, but because he is a liability. And that sort of attitude would probably be quite widespread amongst units serving in combat roles.

Wowbagger @ #47:

And don't forget Christianity has a 600 year head-start; what, exactly, were the Christians of the 1400s like? All smiles and sunshine?

The Christianity of the 1400s was the Spanish Inquisition (est. 1478) - and I bet nobody expected that!

By contrast, the Islam of the 1400s was actually a highly tolerant & moderate religion, that was part of a sophisticated and advanced culture. As proof of how much it has changed, modern fundamentalist Shi'ites go around destroying Islamic books from that period because they tend to have portraits of Mohammed in them. The worst of those books had satirical portraits of Mohammed! Allah forbid! (Seriously - I remember reading about the destruction of a 15th century illustrated Koran - one of the first to be printed - because the book included portraits of Mohammed and his family)

The problem with religion is not that it is inherently intolerant and destructive. The problem with religion is that when a culture develops those tendencies, religion is almost always used as a way of enshrining these nasty aspects of our selves.

Are they praying for the people they are going to kill, or the ones they have already killed? Either way, their god should smite them dead for their sins.

I don't plan my schedule around TV shows but HBO really has the only drama series shows worth watching. And hell comedy for that matter.

I'll never forgive them for canceling Deadwood though.

bastards.

Atheist Chaplain,
I suggest you take a 5 minute break and reread Patricia's comment. You've gotten her intent completely backwards. You could read some of her other comments to help in correcting your error.

I don't know why you guys are so hard on the chaplains. Keep in mind when they shit in the latrines it smells a lot better than all the GI's who have to clean it. At least, that's what the chaplains think.

Alan Kellog: Atheist or not, your life takes on a spirituality no civilian can ever understand or appreciate, no matter how religious he professes to be.

Oh, just fuck you and your self-righteous arrogance. Your amazing self-importance is just awe-inspiring.

Yes, it's only in war (and I guess your little shout out to surgeons as another manly tough guy profession) where the "transience" and "fragility" of life is exposed.

What an asshole. Yes, you can gain depth in war -- but you can also lose it, and become another narcissistic son-of-a-bitch. Or it can just make you crazy -- I've seen examples of all three.

Or maybe it had nothing to do with the war itself, but the material that went in, in the first place?

#54, Rob, you hit the nail on the head.

But regardless of that fact, I just want to put it out there that blasphemy is sexy!

This kind of denigration of Christians in everyday life who have done nothing personally to provoke it serves no purpose other than self-congratulatory satisfaction

Ever served in a combat unit? There are three things that will keep you alive in combat. The word of God is not one of them. Quite to the contrary. The word of God is about as effective at stopping bullets as a sheet of paper. This is why the pope relies on 3" thick bulletproof ballistic grade plastic composites for his public appearances.

The sergeant, whilst atheist, dislikes the priest not because he is a priest, but because he is a liability. And that sort of attitude would probably be quite widespread amongst units serving in combat roles.

Exactly. This isn't like at fucking college where you can just leave when you've had enough. In a firefight, who would you want by your side? The man with the bible, or the man with the gun? I don't care how strong your faith is, and neither does a .50 SLAP round.

Actually I take that back. It was a bad analogy. A piece of paper is actually better at stopping bullets than The word of God, because it provides concealment. Until prayer can make you invisible, I guess there really isn't anything less effective at stopping bullets than The word of God.

What FlameDuck wrote. Airborne!

This clip is hilarious, but really, anyone who hasn't seen the entire series should find it. Excellent film making, intense story line, great characters.

Yeah flameduck, you drive home the point well. It's one thing to imagine the chaplain is somewhere among the grunts not fully pulling his weight. It's another to imagine him immediately at my side with no weapon in his hands while the bullets are flying. No fucking weapon in his hands. There's something profoundly wrong about that.

When I was in Iraq ('04-'05) we didn't really have this kind of issue, our chaplain was more of a, to use a common phrase, community organizer than religious leader. As far as fellow soldiers, I can really only remember a handful that were outspokenly religious, but back then I was still going through my shuffling off of a life of nonsense and was hesitant to even refer to myself as agnostic, much less the atheism that drives me these days.

Couple of things. First @Moody#13. Band of Brothers was a great series, but it was so far removed from what actually happened, it could be labeled as fiction, hell, it was not even close to the book.

We had a chaplain on my first boat that I woulda swore he was a child molester. I was atheist in the navy back in the early 90s, the woo was starting to come on strong back then.

Generation Kill was an awesome series, but it skipped a scene that I really wanted to see. In one of the episodes, the recon marines have to go to Baquba to find this "missing" Iraqi tank division, but it ends before they get there. In the book, the marines find the whole division parked and ready to go, and at the time they had perfect cloud cover; if they had chosen that moment to counterattack, they would have caught the main marine force on their flank. This was the only real opportunity for the Iraqi army to fight a successful field battle, but for whatever reason the division commander waited until eleven am to move out. By that time the cloud cover was gone and the recon marines could target airstrikes. I really wish they had included that in the miniseries.

Atheist Chaplin - I know those passages as well as you do.
Bible verses I choose to quote are meant to amuse the regulars, as well as slay the fools.

Why should a 'chaplain' have the rank of Lt. Colonel? How many 'troops' does he command? Or, maybe, just a way to throw a bit more public tax money into the religious pot? If present at all, he should have no 'rank'.

BobC @ # 40 said:

Wouldn't it be great if the disgusting Christian death cult was completely eradicated.

While I agree with the rest of your comment and myself look at all religions as nothing more than cults worth ridiculing, the above statement does sound like you are wishing violence/death upon all Christians. Not agreeable. Please feel free to correct me if I've misinterpreted your comment.

And being part of a warrior cult is better.... how?

Jerks on both sides in this clip.

@ Auguste:

You posting this video is one of the 10 worst things ever to happen to Christianity.

You say that like it's a bad thing. Christianity itself sucks. We're just pointing out that fact.

So much male skin... I mean charisma, before nine o'clock in the morning in ice-cold Scandinavia and then they even say sensible things - It's almost too much for 40-year old lady with morning coffee in hand.

Agreed.

Re: Kamikaze189's "I don't think they're necessarily bad people. Certainly their choice of job required being willing to harm people and to not be bothered about it. Just something to note about their overall character."

More like "their choice of job means being willing to give up numerous personal freedoms the rest of their country takes for granted, and do a job where they may have to harm other people - or be harmed themselves".

To back up the numerous anecdotes here disputing your "not be bothered about it" assertion, see SLA Marshall's book 'Men Against Fire' or the more recent 'On Killing - the Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society' by Dave Grossman - although the latter goes a bit beyond the pale when he in effect claims that playing Halo will make you equate 'people on the street' with 'things to shoot'.

Minor nitpick: a couple of posters have said the chaplain was a Lieutenant Colonel. The Marines draw their chaplains from the navy. He was a Lieutenant Commander.

A functional cipher and drain on the public purse at any rank.

#31

You said: "If you read the book, you'd see this sort of thing. Plenty of jokes about killing, killing civilians (one soldier earns a nickname for shooting a kid), and so on. I think the author put it well when he wrote something to the effect of: 'These are not the soldiers of world war II. They wouldn't even recognize each other.'"

Please! goddamittmutherfucking hell!

As a citizen of the US whose been personally involved(through father, brothers, uncles, brother-in-laws, sisters, myself, cousins, nephews, nieces, grand-nephews, and grand-nieces) and I mean INVOLVED in not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, but 7 US Military involements - 3 of those involved loss of life, you have no idea of what you find to be real or fantasy.

Do some serious research for yourself before you make blanket statements and regurgitate quotations you know nothing about!

Don't even for a second or a half-second that there is any "great generation" as those who espouse World War II. Those who were in WW2 were just as "guilty" of being human as those who serve currently! The only "benefit" of serving in WW2 was that there was no camera and Internet in your face, thus you could hide your digressions easily. Do you think the mentality of "don't talk, don't tell" came about just because of the '90s?! You have no idea of what the "greatest generation" was capable of.

Humans are humans - goddammit! Such behavior has been happening to mankind since we evolved.

Do not try to paint what the author and actors are saying into a different light. Those men/women demonstrate today just as the same as they did and have always done. The only difference is, we hear about 'some' of it. Don't think for a second that we hear all of it today either; just because there are those who risk much to bring us 'news' via programs or news or the Internet we have available today does not mean its not filtered, officially or otherwise.

What really happens today is the same as what took place more than a multitude of generations ago.

The change is - we can talk about it, show it, speak it, dramatize it, write it, rationalize it, and yet discuss it because its there. That's what this and other shows or programs or articles or books bring to us. It's there. So let's be honest and discuss it.

#74 to my #1:

You say that like it's a bad thing. Christianity itself sucks. We're just pointing out that fact.

My first-post comment was referring to PZ's inclusion on a WorldNetDaily's batshit insane list of the 10 worst moments in religion of the year, or something. It was sarcastic.

#34 to my #33:

Can you tell us what Luke 14:26 and Matthew 10:34-36 really mean please?

Sure. The key to Luke 14:26 is in Luke 14:28-30:

"Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.'"

The "hate your family" is in reference to the animosity converts could expect even from their own family if they determined to follow Jesus' teachings; dropping everything to follow Jesus was to purposefully alienate oneself. You had to love Jesus more than your own family to purposefully subject yourself to that; "hate" was a common word in the bible for "prefer less." Jesus is trying to rattle his wannabe followers into realizing what they'll be giving up.

At one time, Christianity was the rebellious thing to do. That today's fundies take up that mantle as though the situation hadn't reversed itself entirely does not change that fact.

And really, that's the same deal with Matthew 10:34-36. Jesus knew that the message he was preaching (not the one that fundies pretend he was preaching, I wish to add again) would be divisive on a personal level, and he used the metaphor of the sword to illustrate that. Brother against brother kind of rhetoric.

Again, a few "gotcha" verses combined with the perversion of a teaching by centuries of asshole fundamentalists doesn't impress me. It may not be up your alley, but an honest reading of the New Testament makes it pretty clear what Jesus' teachings actually were, and they're not what either the fundies or Patricia OM are claiming.

First post here. Err. uh...
I wish I saw this sentiment more often in my unit. So far I'm the only atheist that I know of here. Anti-God sentiment here gets suppressed pretty hard. More than once I've been chastised for blasphemy. Seems I can joke about mur- er, combat, I can't deny the holy ghost by comparing it to bovine fecal matter. I'll readily explain Russell's Teapot, to rolling eyes. I'll quote the most embarrassing verses I can think of. 90 percent of the time I get accused of lying. I tell them to look for themselves. They never do. I've been exposed to Kent Hovinds moonbattery while ducking out of wor- er, going to church in basic; back then I wasn't a strong enough atheist to openly combat him.

It gets discouraging and lonely being the mean atheist. I like my chaplain, he is a kind man, he truly wants to help, I realy wish there were a secular position like his. No chance of that happening.

Christianity has a stranglehold on my unit. I'm the different one. That's a very bad thing in the military.

I've had one minor success. Spent two weeks with a practicing christian, on one on, one off radio watch. It seems I really got him to think about his doubts on evolution.

Yes, there ARE really atheists in foxholes. My time in Iraq actually did more to push me to a stronger understanding of my lack of faith.

What kind of lame chaplain is that? No imperial death mask, no bolter, no Rosarius, and worst of all he isn't carrying a Crozius Arcanum. I bet that douchebag can't even recite the Liturgies of Battle. Phah!

#82
Amen. Preach it, Brother.

Loved this show.

Please, please, these are Marines not soldiers!
Marines are not soldiers any more than PZ is a pharmacist.

OK, pedantry over.

Sorry, I'm a Marine. And an atheist, and I never got grief for it. Sure there are bible-thumpers out there, but I've never seen religious persecution in the Marines.

They used to say that when you deployed to Okinawa for 6 months your best friend was either booze, barbells, or the bible. I went with the booze, saw lots of dudes who went with barbells, but I don't remember the bibles.

I don't play Warhammer but I do read the books. Just finished one of the Horus Heresy books.

Sure there are bible-thumpers out there, but I've never seen religious persecution in the Marines.

Well, it's alive and well in the Army.

To be fair, I haven't seen any direct persecution per se in my unit (although I did get some interesting questions about my thoughts on the afterlife from a team member while he and I were serving as OPFOR for the ambush the rest of the team was laying in last month), but there is a definite Xian flavor hanging in the air. And for the last couple of years down at Bragg, you could have one book while suffering through SF Selection--the Bible or the Ranger Handbook (page turners both!). I think they've changed that, given stuff said by the last few guys when they got back, but I'm not sure.

Sure there are bible-thumpers out there, but I've never seen religious persecution in the Marines.

Well, it's alive and well in the Army.

To be fair, I haven't seen any direct persecution per se in my unit (although I did get some interesting questions about my thoughts on the afterlife from a team member while he and I were serving as OPFOR for the ambush the rest of the team was laying in last month), but there is a definite Xian flavor hanging in the air. And for the last couple of years down at Bragg, you could have one book while suffering through SF Selection--the Bible or the Ranger Handbook (page turners both!). I think they've changed that, given stuff said by the last few guys when they got back, but I'm not sure.