How did Dawkins react to the news that the Oklahoma legislature wanted to outlaw him?

Hooray for Dawkins! He made the idiots look like, well, idiots.

How exactly do you outlaw 'someone' ?

Not unexpectedly that was great.

It's always funny when the cdesign proponentsists try and portray Dawkins as angry and irrational. The man is so mild-mannered, gracious and rational that all he has to do is read the ranting screeds they write against him aloud for the absurdity to be made manifest. You'd think they'd learn. Oh, wait...

That was quite the rebuttal, with some good British humor.

"There are lots of smart Oklahomans who are really angry at the stupidity of these ignorant legislators."
Just how many? Do we have a percentage?

Nice! I wish Dawkins would visit north Florida!!

The attempt to ban him from speaking was arrogant on so many levels. The proposal claims that Dawkins' views are

...not shared and are not representative of the thinking of a majority of the citizens of Oklahoma

There are plenty of people in OK that agree with him. That auditorium seemed pretty packed to me.

While I definitely agree that the structure of the electoral college obscures the fact that there are a lot of people who think like we do even in places like Oklahoma, I also think it's a bit of wishful thinking to suggest that Oklahoma as a whole is going to stand up for reason. Lest I remind you of this:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/county/#OKP00map

"There are lots of smart Oklahomans who are really angry at the stupidity of these ignorant legislators."
Just how many? Do we have a percentage?

That would be evidence of rational thinking, none of which is allowed in Oklahoma.

Yes of course we'll get the "let OK" secede" and OK is full of idiots crowds. The truth is this can and does happen all over the country. There are idiots everywhere and they can organize to pass idiotic measures (Prop 8 anyone?).

[broken record alert] Lumping whole geographic areas together claiming their population thinks in a homogeneous way or sharing the same values is just myopic and does no good to any argument you are trying to make.

/broken record rant off

There may be some smart people in Okie-dom, but you could wiped 'em all out with one hand grenade in the Dawkins lecture hall.

Actually, I'm surprised it went off so well...(not the grenade)...

Y'know, that video with the storks... was pretty convincing. I think I'm sold. After all - it was on TV so it must be true.

sigh

If Dawkins is outlawed, then only outlaws will have Dawkins.

I escaped Oklahoma in 2000. I'd been there since 1994.

If I-40 didn't go through it, i'd never get the dust of that horrendous, awful, dreadful, obnoxious place on my tires again...

I'm glad we've come to a time and place where the mere appearance of Ben Stein's miserable mug will cause riotous laughter.

Richard Dawkins never ceases to impress me with his his wit and public speaking ablility. I can only hope he comes to Western Canada for series of speaking engagements. It's doubtless that people would try to outlaw him here. LOL.

Here's a link to the Sexpelled video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ThQQuHtzHM

Y'know, that video with the storks... was pretty convincing. I think I'm sold. After all - it was on TV so it must be true.

The complete video is also on Youtube:
Teach the controversy -- Stork theory

Lumping whole geographic areas together claiming their population thinks in a homogeneous way or sharing the same values is just myopic and does no good to any argument you are trying to make.

Nor does ignoring the indisputable fact that an easily recognizable region of the country contains a high proportion of creotards and IDiots that wish to impose their theocracy and bronze age myths on everyone.

You live in Dumbfuckistan. Deal with.

Actually, there are very, very few rational people in Oklahoma. I would not be here if I had a choice. (military).
In Tulsa, a large percentage of the people either attend Rhema (google it, but not on an empty stomach), or the Oral Robert's sheeple farm. I can't go to Walmart without being accosted by "May the Lord Bless You".

Thanks for the laugh, What a great way to start the day.

It is quite revealing how the legislator has shown himself to be a true "dumbass". I hope all Oklahomans review the voting record of their representatives. And when they find one this stupid they vote him/her OUT.

I wouldn't bet against the probability that OU's appropriation for next year will be diminished by the same degree as the fuckwitz in the lege feel insulted by Dawkins' pronouncements...

Nor does ignoring the indisputable fact that an easily recognizable region of the country contains a high proportion of creotards and IDiots that wish to impose their theocracy and bronze age myths on everyone.

You live in Dumbfuckistan. Deal with.

Never did I say that there aren't idiots and a large number of them in OK or in my case SC, just that lumping the whole state is a lazy way of making a point.

You're lazy, deal with.

To anyone wanting to record a talk given in such a horribly revererant environment as a field house (I've run sound in them; I never would have believed an RT60 of "infinite" possible until I heard it):

Please consult an audio professional beforehand. I could with effort understand Dawkins, but the film clips were 100% unintelligible.

Re: Dawkins' remark about the purpose of the University: "what if the university did no more than ratify students' existing prejudices..."

I taught at the University of Oklahoma, and I can assure you that that is PRECISELY what the students wanted then and I suspect now as well: they want ratification of their stupidity, and to have their tickets punched for the great middull Murkin "good lahf."

He had me busting a gut over the Intelligent Falling slide. :D I love it! Someone alert Ray Comfort.

There were an estimated 2800-3000 people at Dawkins' talk. The crowd was clearly and enthusiastically in support of his
stand.

I reinforce what #11, Rev. Big Dumb Chimp said. Oklahoma has defeated religious and anti-evolution bills and similar school board stuff for the past 10 years, unlike Kansas, Texas, Louisiana and other states. Creationist bills have been introduced recently in Florida, Iowa and elsewhere and more states will get them.

We are not through in Oklahoma and must continue combat again this year, although the proposed 'Academic Freedom Act' was recently killed in committee, largely due to the efforts of organizations like the Oklahomans for Excellence in Science Education, praised in the Dawkins film clip.

Many states have similar organizations that deserve support. BEWARE, few states are immune from the crap, just keep watching!

"There are lots of smart Oklahomans who are really angry at the stupidity of these ignorant legislators."
Just how many? Do we have a percentage?

The percentage is, unfortunately, pretty small. Too small to make much difference in the state government. I went to this event, and it was the first time in my life I was in a crowd with where the freethinkers outnumbered the religious. It was a weird, wonderful feeling.

@ doubtingfoo ...We'd probably get way too many of these people.

I was the student volunteer responsible for keeping track of the number of people entering the lecture. At about ~1 minute before the lecture began my count was 2225 (I then scurried inside to actually get to see the lecture). In addition to this there were 100 people that entered from another entrance for reserved seating. There were somewhere between 20-35 student volunteers that also had seating.
Granted there were some late-comers, I think the number of attendees is closer to 2400.

Here's the deal... if people like Michele Bachmann can be RE-ELECTED to represent states like Minnesota... then OK legislators have god on their side... and people like Dawkins have an uphill battle for as far as the eye can see.

I hope someone got video of the guy in the audience screaming about Dawkins going to Hell and whatnot during the Q&A. From where I was sitting we couldn't hear him over the boos. Other than my time spent on this blog it is a very rare thing for my religious views to put me in the minority. It was a nice change, the nutters here need fixin' bad.

@ Ryan - see comment #32

The Stork Theory of Reproduction must be true. I cannot imagine my mother ever having had sex. She was too pure and pristine.

Here's a link to a partialrecording of the "I'M A BIOLOGIST" guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYPaNV3q6Jw

'Tis Himself,

Your modesty causes you to overlook the obvious alternative - although perhaps the handle you have chosen indicates a subconscious awareness of it ;-)

I'm assuming the "Biologist" must be complaining to YouTube as the video keeps getting yanked.

How I wished Dawkins would come and speak here in the SF Bay area. Does he tour the U.S. often?

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 7, 2009 11:52 AM

sigh

Echo

Funny Dawkins related story:

I got to go with Dawkins when he toured the History of Science Collection at OU, before his talk. They had got out all the first edition copies of every one of Darwin's books and put them out on display for him. Apparently he didn't realize that this was done for him, and thought the books were all laid out like that normally. When he saw all the books laid out, and how we could all just walk right up to them and open them up, he asked "But what if some creationist loony gets his hands on them???" :D It was explained that the books are normally kept in a vault and that there are security cameras in the reading room. No need to worry about IDiots defacing them.

It was really cool. One of the books had belonged to one of Darwin's friends, who had had a letter from Darwin bound with the book. Dawkins read the letter aloud--he did a good job of making out Darwin's barely legible chicken scratch. Hopefully there will be a video of that posted on the OU history of science website at some point.

And Dawkins was wearing a Hawaiian shirt on the tour. I never really pictured him as a Hawaiian shirt kinda guy, but there ya go.

Anyone know if there's an audio recording available online for this lecture? in mp3 or other?

maybe it's my computer, but, i can't seem to make out what RD is saying in the above clip.

OMG. That was so funny. The music is AWESOME.

Please encourage "Richy" (I'm still laughing at your last "I get email") to publish the talk (not just the video) on his website. I'm going over there after I hit "post" to do just that and to offer kudos for his thoughtful donation. I will then make a donation myself as he suggested.

Oh, dear. Does that make me a mindless sheep? If so, I guess I'll be thankful that if I cannot have a free thought of my own, at least I am choosing the right people to follow...

To Wes, re: #42: I've had the opportunity to look at those same books, and was able to read the letter written by Darwin that you mentioned. It was indeed quite a treat!

I really enjoyed the lecture last night, particularly Dawkins' good-natured opening line: "I'm not one to blow my own trumpet, but...it's not everyone who gets to be the subject of legislation!" :) Honestly, I was surprised that there was only just the one outburst from a, shall we say, outspoken member of the faith community, and then only well into the Q&A. There were a couple of actual questions from religious people in the audience, but they were asked politely and diplomatically. All in all, the evening went down without a hitch, I'd say. The only issue I had was the fact that my blasted bronchitis made me unable to croak out more than a couple of strangled words to Mr. Dawkins as he signed my books!

I was quite amazed at the turnout for the lecture myself. I arrived at 3:30 to get in line and there were already about 100 or so people there. I was not aware that there were so many free thinking people in this terrible state and I'm also glad that OU did not cave to the pressure of the crazies, especially those in the legislature.

Also, for those of you in Oklahoma/North Texas, E.O. Wilson will be speaking at USAO in Chickasha, OK on March 26.

such a horribly revererant environment as a field house

I do find all those coerced team prayers and athletes crediting God for their victory quite annoying myself. Didn't Jesus have something to say about public displays of piety?

This, Petey, is why you'll never be able to front up to Dawkins. He'd eat you alive for your ignorance.

such a horribly revererant environment as a field house

Okay, I finally figured it out. I think #26 meant "reverberant." As in lots of reverb.

Sorry if I'm just pointing out the obvious, but I had to read that a few times.

The fact that there is a big problem regarding the push towards theocracy in many southern states can certainly engender great disgust, fear, embarrassment, and hatred. My admiration for rational thinkers who continue to live and fight for rationality in these states is growing and growing. You gals and guys bowl me over.

If you can't take the heat and prefer to leave for more rational places, I understand that urge. However, some are staying and fighting. And the indiscriminate and careless focus on the irrational and crazy loudmouths instead of the truly courageous people fighting the good fight makes such issuers of blanket condemnation appear callous and lopsided. Southern states are worth saving—lots of valuable people and achievements are tied to those states.

That was fantastic, and hilarious! He's sure got a gift at stickin' it to 'em, that Richard Dawkins. Hmph, I hope he makes it to Ottawa one day.

I can't understand what the heckler was shouting.

Thank you, Logicel :)

Wasn't the stork footage from "Dumbo"?

I arrived at 5 for the 7PM talk and it looked like there were nearly 1,000 in line. The resolution "expressing dissapproval of the actions of the University of Oklahoma to indoctrinate students in the theory of evolition; opposing the invetation to Richard Dawkins to speak on campus" was being handed out to the crowd. It was, as you can guess, an eloquent testament to the ignorance that produced it. This is from the same people that were concerned about academic freedom in public schools!It was obvious the students long ago had become fed up with religious indoctrination and enthusiasticly embraced Dawkins. He received 3 staning ovations. The sad thing is going to be all the letters to the editor published in our local newspapers complaining about Dawkins' visit and evolution in general from people who did not attend the talk, have no understanding of evolution and have never read any science. So, don't hesitate to contact the Daily Oklahoman at yourviews@opubco.com to express your support of OU, Richard Dawkins and real academic freedom. David

Oh for crying out loud - evolUtion, evolUtion, evolUtion!!!
David

Wasn't the stork footage from "Dumbo"?

Hush

Clearly this is a well-produced documentary by researchers of the storkist school of human and elephant reproduction.

The resolution "expressing dissapproval of the actions of the University of Oklahoma to indoctrinate students in the theory of evolition; opposing the invetation to Richard Dawkins to speak on campus" was being handed out to the crowd. It was, as you can guess, an eloquent testament to the ignorance that produced it. This is from the same people that were concerned about academic freedom in public schools!

It was Dawkins himself who arranged to have copies of the bill handed out at the lecture. He seemed to be getting a real kick out of being the target of hostile legislation. The bit in the talk about the lege was added just a couple hours beforehand, when he heard about the bill. My guess is he saw what you saw: the bill is a perfect example of the kind of hostile ignorance which our educational institutions are up against.

Karnalis,
The collections really are incredible. Have you gotten to see the original copies of Galileo's works they have in there? It has Galileo's own handwriting in the margin, and a dedication and signature on the title page in his own hand. I couldn't believe I was actually in the same room with it! Back in the 1600s I bet Galileo had no idea, when he was scribbling on a copy of his book, that 400 years later it would become a priceless historical artifact.

And you're right. Other than the crazed fundie who shouted about Dawkins denying his god, the Christians who attended were very respectful and polite. They attempted to challenge Dawkins, and I think he responded eloquently, but no one else was being pushy or rude or hostile.

Wes - What was the crazy fundie shouting?

I had difficulty hearing him, because I was on the other side of the auditorium. I was able to make out "denying my god" and "I'm a biologist", and I could hear people sitting near him screaming "shut the fuck up!". Someone higher up in the thread posted a link to a youtube video shot by someone who was much closer to the creotard than I was.

Back in the 1600s I bet Galileo had no idea, when he was scribbling on a copy of his book, that 400 years later it would become a priceless historical artifact.

Considering Galileo's massive ego, I wouldn't be surprised if he expected his books to be priceless artifacts.

Wes - Thanks. I did listen to the link above, but still couldn't understand the guy. Odd that, I speak fluent fundie. :)

I'm rarely star struck. I've met everyone from 4 star generals to A-list movie stars and directors to world reknowned athletes and artists. However, the other day, when I got to shake RD's hand here in MN I admit to being a bit overwhelmed. It almost makes up for me never having been able to meet Carl Sagan.

The stork footage is from a video by Nina Paley:

http://blog.ninapaley.com/2008/05/17/return-of-the-stork/

#59

I couldn't understand all of what the shouting guy said, but I heard most of it.
The guy was apparently mumbling things loudly the whole time.
Someone else got in his face and yelled "Shut the fuck up", then that's when he stood up and his outburst started.

"You are not *inaudible* making fun of my god, in front of god"

Then he said something else I couldn't understand, followed by:

"Make fun of theologians, I'm not a theologian. I'm a biologist. I got a bachelor in biology and then I did research, sir. You sir, are a fraud."

The turnout was great. My wife and I got there at about 3:30. We had heard about the Oklahoma legislature writing the ridiculous resolution, and I was very glad to see people handing out the resolution to all the people waiting in line. Everyone was pretty peeved about it, and it was pretty embarrassing to be an Oklahoman. I thought that Richard Dawkins would comment on it, and I expected him to hurl an insult or two towards Oklahoma in general. I was pleasantly surprised to hear his rebuttal, and was thrilled when he said he would be donating to Oklahomans for Excellence in Science Education.

To anyone who was asking: the crazy fundie was shouting "You're going to hell" and "You will not slay my god" and "I'm not a theologian, I'm a biologist! You, sir, are a fraud." I didn't hear anything else he said.

I was expecting more fundies to be there in protest, so I was surprised when we only had one crazy person.

I hope the eagerness of the audience will persuade him to come to Oklahoma again in the future.

Here's a second video of the shouting guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSFxBehMbZM

With my bad ears, I couldn't understand a word of it. Oh well.

@#2: How exactly do you outlaw 'someone' ?

You declare him outside the protection of the law, such that anyone may kill him without penalty. For extra credit, declare that same ban on anyone who gives him aid and comfort. Martin Luther faced this very penalty in 1521.

Damn, that guys came off creepier than i thought he was going to be.

He really got his point across though.

Wait

what was his point?

Rev. BDC,
his point was: Pascal wuz teh awsum.

Or maybe that he nowz teh biology.

I love that man!

Kyle - Thankyou, that one was much better.

Thanks, Kyle, for the link. Much clearer than the other vid.

To me, the guy comes across as sincerely upset. He may have been bonkers, but he did a fair job of communicating. Especially considering that he knew he was alone in a crowd that he imagined was hostile. The "sir" business was polite, but a bit archaic.

I'm faulting him, though, for the claim that he "did research". That's what every moon hoaxer and religious loon says. The standard line for pseudo-science seems to be, "Do the research, sheeple!" And they go off to read crazy stuff, uncritically.

Well said, Richard Dawkins. If ever Oklahoma ever needed an organization to promote science education, ''particularly of legislators'', now is that time.

anyone know who the crazy guy at the lecture was?
he said he was a biologist doing research?
Yeah and I bet he also "used to be an atheist" as well.

I'm not really ignorant of the use of quote marks, but I sometimes lapse into wiki syntax for emphasis on blogs where html is the correct thing to use.

I was there, and yes, Dawkins' rebuttal to the "ignorant fool" in question was right on the mark. If only he'd actually had the chance to debate the belligerent, disruptive IDiot like he commented he wanted to, the evening would've been perfect.

While it may be true that the stupid OK legislature *wants* to outlaw Dawkins, it's certainly not the point of the resolution. The resolution itself,(text can be found on richarddawkins.net) does not DO anything but express the House's disapproval of Dawkins. It does not enact any real law. Thus, no one is actually attempting to "outlaw" him, and saying that they are makes us sound hyperbolous.

Most resolutions are like this. They don't do anything but "express the opinion of the House" which I think is a big fat waste of time. Wikipedia has this to say about such resolutions:
"The resolution is often used to express the body's approval or disapproval of something which they cannot otherwise vote on, due to the matter being handled by another jurisdiction, or being protected by a constitution."

In this case thankfully, it is the constitution stopping those backward people supporting the resolution from getting what they really want.

I've met everyone from 4 star generals to A-list movie stars and directors to world reknowned athletes and artists.

OK, but do you know J*hn Kw*k? Personally?

Sven - You are a gruesome, saucy smart-ass. ;)

He really got his point across though.

Wait

what was his point?

That he wasn't a theologian, he was a biologist, and he did research that proves Dawkins is a fraud, apparantly. Presumably he's saying evolution isn't true, and Dawkins is somehow responsible for that. Of course, it would have been interesting explaining how Dawkins managed to plant all the millions of bits and pieces of evidence, of numerous different types, that all suggest evolution is correct, especially as many of them were discovered before Dawkins was born.

Ah, I know - Dawkins secretly has a time machine. This also explains how Dawkins managed to travel back in time to convince Darwin to propose his theory in the first place (which must secretly actually be Dawkins' theory).

Ah, I know - Dawkins secretly has a time machine. This also explains how Dawkins managed to travel back in time to convince Darwin to propose his theory in the first place (which must secretly actually be Dawkins' theory).

Ah, no, I'm wrong about that. Darwin secretly IS Dawkins. Look at this picture of Dawkins on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dawkins_at_UT_Austin_2.jpg

Now, imagine he took his glasses off, and glowered a bit. That looks a lot like Darwin (sans beard), as you can see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Charles_Darwin_seated.jpg

(The hair he has on top as Dawkins is secretly a wig.)

All I heard was "Youthperrafroth". I thought he was speaking in tongues.

Tip for the shouting fundie: reading Answers in Genesis doesn't count as "doing research".

Now, imagine he took his glasses off, and glowered a bit. That looks a lot like Darwin (sans beard), as you can see here:

Actually, he's Hermione Granger.

I'm stealing this comment from the YouTube video, but it did sound like angry man said "You, sir, are a frog!" If I hadn't known he was saying fraud in advance I'd think he was accusing Dawkins of being amphibian.

At #11, Rev. BigDumbChimp wrote:

Lumping whole geographic areas together claiming their population thinks in a homogeneous way or sharing the same values is just myopic and does no good to any argument you are trying to make.

Rev. Chimpy,

Just fling the fact that they have committed a sweeping generalization, a deductive fallacy (dicto simpliciter) at the next person who provokes you with a similar claim.

It doesn't make the quite the same statement that throwing feces does, but you'll be able to add to your "Spot the Fallacy on Pharyngula" score.

Wes at #58. Just for the record. Here is how and when Dawkins saw the resolutions. Early on the morning of the lecture I made copies of the resolutions in the event that Dawkins had not actually read them and took them to the bed and breakfast where I was to pick up Nick Matzke (whom I was hosting for a talk he gave in the OU Zoology seminar series) in the hopes I would see Dawkins there at breakfast. Matzke and Dawkins with his assistants were having breakfast and I gave the copies to Dawkins. He read them and seem delighted. He immediately said "I'm changing my talk!" A discussion ensued about how to do this, where to do it in his talk, etc. The decison was made to make many copies to hand out as people entered and I directed his assistant to a nearby copy shop.

It was during this breakfast meeting that Dawkins learned about Oklahomans for Science Education (OESE) and the actions the organization had taken to oppose legislation, conduct teachers' workshops, etc. They decided to place the OESE link on Dawkins web site and to show it on a slide for the talk. I then left to take Matzke to an appointment. On the way my cell phone rang. It was Dawkins, who said he would give OESE $1000 from his foundation and would it be O.K. to announce it. After some discussion, I said yes. At a reception just before his talk Dawkins told me that he had talked to his foundation trustees and that they had agreed to up the donation to $5000!

Needless to say OESE is most appreciative of the publicity he gave OESE near the beginning of his lecture and the funds will be a HUGE help. Thus, pure chance may have been involved in what transpired. Dawkins team did a good job in making slides and getting things prepared for his talk on short notice.

*clenched-tentacle salute* for Vic and OESE.
Keep up the good work!

this was my reaction when I heard the fucking ridiculous heckler in the crowd:

*clenched-tentacle salute* for Vic and OESE.
Keep up the good work!

SALUTE!

Carlie: Aaagh! Pass the mindbleach! Disturbing mental image!

Dr. Dawkins needs to come to central Florida. Heck, PZ needs to come back. The stupid is threatening to overwhelm us again.

I can't imagine if he tried to visit my local university or any in the state of West Virginia. There would be a toothless uprising.

Future reference, train some mic runners to get mics to people that we all want to hear. It bothered me that the crowd boo'd him.

#22, I completely agree. This town scared the shit out of me when I first moved here. I thought everyone and their dog owned at least 5 bibles. If anything, the praying hands bronze statue outside of Oral Roberts Uni should scare the shit out of anyone. I also work with alot of kids who go to Rhema, and it blows my mind how old testament the world view they have is. I have a coworker who outright said "I believe in creation as it is written in the bible." And she seemed like such a nice girl...

Oklahoma does have a rather high percentage of people who seem like normal, everyday people, rather intelligent in the ways of the world, and then they break out this absolutely inane spiel about creation and why god exists, blah, blah, blah. Add those to the greater amount of people who just outright seem like creationist, bible thumping, book burning idiots, and Oklahoma can be a pretty desolate place to be an atheist at times.

Made me happy to hear that when Dawkin's speech was first announced, the original auditorium, (with great sound, btw, the place was actually designed for the purpose of hosting traveling lectures that would be A/V recorded) sold out all the tickets in less than a day of the 1,000 seats it held. They then decided to move it to the bigger field house, which holds something just above 3,000 people, AND MAKE IT FREE. I was going to make the hour-long or so road trip from Tulsa to see him talk, really annoyed me to no end that I couldn't get time off from work for that day. And after I saw the legislation pop out, I knew I really, really wanted to be there.

Personally, I'm amazed there were no picketers or protesters outside the field house. I was visualizing needing my steel-toed boots to get into the auditorium.

I really really wanted to get there. Unfortunately I had something to do earlier that day that dragged on longer than I expected and when I realized that the trip average time (according to my GPS) would likely be nearly two hours, and then calling to find out about already long lines, I realized my chances of even getting in on time were slim to none.

A real shame though, I knew I was missing something then and now it seems like it would have been even better.

Are there any longer recordings of the meeting? I find two of the nut job and one of his reaction to that insane bill, but not much else.

@vhutchison:

Thanks for all of your updates on this and the related threads! I'm glad that some good came out of Thomsen's silly resolution, and I hope that the additional publicity inspires everyone to further contribute to OESE. And of course, thanks as always for your great work in fighting the continuous nonsense.

It's dreadful that the end result of all of the DiscoTard's efforts only ends up hurting the students, either by polluting their minds or by having to sue the school districts (Dover) and take resources away from useful programs.

There are many good people in Oklahoman fighting the good fight. The obvious are the Oklahomans for Science Education (OESE) and of course ERV, but there is also the crowd at the Grindstone Journal who are on the side of science (disclosure: they sometimes use my blogposts for articles on their website, and perhaps also in the print version).

Clik this : How did Dawkins react to Lennox's argument ?

badly caught off-balance.

Simple Simon the idiot Lieman. Still showing your lack of credibility. You lied and bullshitted, so now everything you try to state is considered a lie and bullshit. Yawn, boring irrelevant troll.

#101

your future depends on him, will be dumped soon.

Rev Chimp's comment @11 was just after mine @10, so he may have been criticising me. I agree with BDC's point that criticizing an area for the opinions of some (or even most) people in the area is silly; not only is it a lazy way of making a point, it's not even accurate.

But I hope it wasn't in response to my comment. This is what I said, my bit is emphasized:

“There are lots of smart Oklahomans who are really angry at the stupidity of these ignorant legislators.”
Just how many? Do we have a percentage?

That would be evidence of rational thinking, none of which is allowed in Oklahoma.

I hope it's obvious I was making a snarky comment, not offering any sort of an argument or hypothesis. Nor are the two people quoted condemning all of Oklahoma (“There are lots …” and “… how many?”). In any case, it's clear my comment, read as snarky or not, isn't true: An auditorium filled with over 2000 people (and one known loon) is a rather convincing counterexample.

And yes, I don't always use “</snark>” when I should.  ;-\

Dark Jaguar:

I was told that Dawkins' talk will be posted on his web site. His webmaster filmed his visit, including the lecture. Check the Dawkins.net site later to see.

Unfortunately, the OU Field House has terrible acoustics, as others have pointed out. The original venue (Catlett Music Center) theater is designed for musical presentations and has great acoustics. When the free tickets for Catlett went in 45 minutes and many complained that they could not get in, the talk was moved to the only available place to hold the event. Too bad that there were no changes to make it better, but that may have been a huge problem with high costs where funds were not available? Nevertheless, the move did allow all those who wanted to hear Dawkins to do so.

Simple Simon the boring Lieman. I rely on Dawkins for nothing. My future does not depend on Dawkins. That is what you don't understand about atheism. And makes you an idiot.

No blf, not targeted at you. But I knew that we would see it used in the comments as it always happens when there is a post about a state's legislature, especially one in the "south". Though OK isn't really the south.

I was right.

Rev BDC, Ok, thanks for clarifying. Cheers!

Nerd of Redhead, OM #105

I rely on Dawkins for nothing. My future does not depend on Dawkins. That is what you don't understand about atheism.

Silly Nerd. Don't you know that Dawkins (may the peace of Darwin be upon his head) is the High Priest, the Supreme Imam, the Chief Rabbi, the Pontiff of atheism? Ray Comfort says so and you know Ray can't be wrong.

My future does not depend on Dawkins.

Yes it does. I predict that you will, in the very near future, dye your hair grey, start wearing tweed and talk with a British accent. This future depends entirely on Dawkins.

My future, of course, is better than yours because it depends on someone much more sound.

...whose published statements on the theory of evolution and opinion about those who do not believe in the theory are contrary and offensive to the views and opinions of most citizens of Oklahoma.

My published statements on the theory of libertarianism and opinion about those who do not believe in the theory are contrary and offensive to the views and opinions of most citizens of Pharyngula, and indeed of many other places. That does not give them the right to silence me.

This is why democratically elected legislatures should NOT be trusted with any real power! (Not that I'm suggesting dictatorship. Rather, we need a constitution which constrains government power so much that, as Grover Norquist said, one could drown it in a bathtub.)

RD dyes his hair grey?! Who'd've thought...

dye your hair grey, start wearing tweed and talk with a British accent.

Well what hair I have is grey, I wore tweed in a previous profession (tweed still in the closet), and no way can I lose my midwest accent. Nope, nothing there.

Oh Walton - Do enlighten us! Who is much more sound than Richard Dawkins.

Inquiring minds want to know!

Well, my hair is grey, but my individual hairs are either black or white.

</pedant>

My future, of course, is better than yours because it depends on someone much more sound.

The philosophy of Ayn Rand?

I'm sorry. I was drunk last night when I wrote the above posts. I am an idiot.

And no, Kel, I am not a Randian. How many more times do I need to point this out? She rejected altruism; she would have excoriated me for giving money to a beggar in the street, as I did yesterday. I don't reject altruism. I just reject state coercion.

Walton:

A reminder of what it means to make government so small you could drown it in a bathtub:

http://www.lies.com/wp/images/bathtub.jpg

Consider that, so that you think before you post something so odious again.

Not that it's stopped you in the past, you misanthropic lackwit.

That, by the way was an image of New Orleans, after Katrina--the very embodiment of what happens when one tries to use Norquist's ideas about government.

In case you didn't get it.

Walton,

I am not a Randian.

To state that is to your credit, IMO.

Oklahoma is a difficult place to live as an atheist...but how many places in the states are? Christianity is more in your face here, but being an atheist still makes you a pariah most anywhere. I will continue to work in this state and make diversity more understandable, and will someday run for a state representative spot and I don't think my chances are zilch just because I won't hide my atheism.

And, OU has never relented in the teaching of natural selection, never worrying about the ripples that makes amongst some students. Our incredible natural history museum is a testament to that.

Thanks to Dr. Hutchison for his tireless efforts in spreading science excellence in our state.

Those who fret and whine over "Dumbfuckistans" (JD, #21 and several others who have expressed similar 'outrage') ought never to underestimate how many of reasonable bearing (or those open to the notion) thoroughly infiltrate the sheeple farms, out of the necessities imposed by family, peer-group, career and cultural pressures.

You really ought to know better. Their ubiquitous presence on the farms ensure that those farms are also burdened by at least as many ambitiously suspicious and paranoid creatures - many of whom are recruited into positions of responsibility and who definitely wouldn't recognize reason if they tripped over it. That basically takes care of at least half the census - the rest cultivating haemmoroids from their constant fence-sitting, rendering the majority of them inadequate to their avowed 'cause'.

Surely we can appreciate the phenomenon of downfall and collapse from within. Maybe even appreciate the concept of how cultural inertia resists change in the context of evolution? You know - according to that quaint idea of 'selection' that a couple of intrepid Englishmen came up with as a sensible mechanism for it?

One wonders just how many examples of evidence from nature and from human history (even, right before our very eyes, RECENT human history) some of us have to be exposed to before they wake up and recognize it in order to learn the lesson.

I've never seen much intelligence in any of the tonsils exposed in gaping blabber-mouths devoted to any side. There are intelligent dogs that watch silently and patiently to size up a situation and know when its appropriate to deliver an effective growl, and then there are little lap dogs that reflexively yap it up on the slightest disturbance. Unfortunately, there are too many of the latter pretending to help. They couldn't hear a thing while yapping. And when the dust of history eventually settles they are invariably found to have been quite inconsequential. Alas, the little dogs have been bred that way: they can never grow up.

I had the best time seeing Dawkins. The lecture went very well, even the heckler made me laugh. Hubby got video of it. Thanks to the power of jebus, we decided not to sit by him. Almost did.

And no, Kel, I am not a Randian. How many more times do I need to point this out? She rejected altruism; she would have excoriated me for giving money to a beggar in the street, as I did yesterday.

No she didn't. What she objected to trying to base a government on forced "altruism". She had no problem with people disposing of their wealth in whatever way they saw fit. What she objected to was the concept that by being "wealthy" you have an obligation to be altruistic. That you do not have the right to say "no" to that beggar. One of the stories in Atlas Shrugged was the demise of charity in a mill town that implemented a socialistic welfare system. She believed that people are naturally generous and cooperative, that rational people will freely choose to share their excess wealth with the less fortunate. She also believed that trying to legislate, or force, these behaviors will have just the opposite effect.

I do not agree with everything in her philosophy, but I think there are some parts of value and I also think that a lot of it is grossly misunderstood. I used to consider myself an "Objectivist", but I don't think I really am anymore, but neither am I an "anti-Objectivist". Mostly I just try to be a "rationalist".

Walton #110: "This is why democratically elected legislatures should NOT be trusted with any real power!"

Walton #116: "I'm sorry. I was drunk last night when I wrote the above posts. I am an idiot."

BUT...

"I just reject state coercion."

That's fine. Wonderful. Good for you. You can reject anything you like. Even when you're bombed.

Let us know whenever you figure out what we can all 'trust' and alternatives to governments (of any kind, including 'democratically elected legislatures') holding 'any real power' over large populations of people and their doings.

One question though: are we to presume that all laws and regulations are to be regarded as 'state coercion'?

Truly, I love a man that speaks his mind, drunk or sober. Laws around these parts of the planet lately haven't much removed that particular liberty from us (not as much as cultural forces may, say, in the form of indignant scowls from righteously religious old ladies).

But look on the bright side: at least there aren't any yet on the books to coerce you into sobriety. ;)

The truly amazing thing is how these OK legislators who put this bill together don't get the irony, the absurdity, of banning a speaker in the name of free speech.

It's just like fucking for chastity or fighting for peace or killing all the citizens to make the country safe for them or trickle-down economics works.

Actually, I guess it's not surpising. To get it, you have to have some intelligence, a sense of humor, and a sense of irony, none of which are typical features of a US religulous creationist.

Too many comments to read, so if this point has already been made forgive me.

Yes, there were a lot of young Oklahomans laughing at the creationist nonsense.

The problem is, when they graduate, many will move out of the state leaving the rest of us to deal with the redneck majority.

It will be a long time before change comes to Oklahoma, because unlike most of the rest of the county, Oklahoma is moving further to the right.