A testimonial

Not all of my email consists of metaphorical daggers hurled my way. I actually get a fair amount of praise and comments about how I've won people over to the cause of atheism — I just tend not to post those, because of my awesome modesty and because you all know this stuff, anyway. This one is interesting because I didn't convince the fellow to be an atheist, but instead made him think…which is what we're all after, anyway.

Good day, Mr. Myers.

My name is Josh. I just wanted to send you a message about how you, in the strangest way, changed my life, and my faith for the better.

I'm quite aware of your feelings toward religious people. And I honestly can't blame you. We don't have a terrific public track record, and more often than not, we tend to be the closed minded conservative bigots everyone blames us for being, and I'm honestly sad to say that I was just that way, and probably hurt a few people while I sat around being Mr. Holy.

But all that aside, I feel I owe where I am now in my life to you, and whether or not you care how you've improved the faith of a young, struggling Christian, I wanted to tell you anyway.

Last semester I took a Religions of the World course, and as an extra-credit assignment, I was given the option to attend an event at the Missouri State University, at which you spoke. I went, and let me tell you, it was probably one of the most jarring and terrifying moments of my life. I'd always known there were those who strongly opposed religion. In fact, one of my best friends in high school was an extreme skeptic, who constantly asked me the tough questions, you know, the ones that usually can only be answered with "He works in mysterious ways." But I'd never been in a room packed with people who whooped and cheered every time a stab was taken at the way I'd chosen to live my life. It was chilling and upsetting and I wanted to leave every second since you'd first opened your mouth. I didn't hate you for saying it. How could I? It was your belief and you were sharing it, which you have every right to do.

But what horrified me the most wasn't the room full of atheists, or the seemingly impenetrable arguments you provided that I should completely dump my faith and see the world in a different light. What turned my stomach and threatened to send me off the edge were the stories you told of Christians giving the rest of us a bad name, such as those at the Catholic Mass when the student stole the cracker and received death threats. I suppose hypocrisy is simply the nature of the conventional Christian. They act like children in a tree house that throw rocks at anyone who hurts their feelings.

Atheists ranting about how the past five generations of my family are superstitious crackpots I can handle, because the atheists are standing for what they believe, but when people who claim to have devoted their lives to furthering the love and compassion that Jesus showed start acting in ways that negate every message they've ever tried to present, or they choose which biblical rules they want to follow and which to ignore, and things like that, it really just makes me sick.

Anyway, I suppose this isn't terribly interesting to you in any event, but I've resolved to stop sitting in church and being spoon fed pre-cooked beliefs, and to start seeking answers by asking questions I was afraid to before. The founder of Buddhism once said, "Do not believe these things because I've told you to, but find truth through your own experiences." I've adopted that to the core of my beliefs.

I still believe in God, and I still consider myself a Christian, but I'm seeing things in a different light. I'm finding the meaning behind the rituals and traditions, rather than just believing there's power in "holy" water or an oyster cracker. I've begun searching for the reasons why certain rules are administered, instead of just saying "because the bible says so".

I don't know if you'll ever read this, and I don't know if I'll ever come in contact with you again, but I want to sincerely thank you. I know I completely missed the purpose of your speech, but whether or not you actually accept my thanks isn't the point. I hope that maybe others of my faith can learn the lesson I did, and I definitely think that it's a good idea to listen what nonbelievers have to say.

After all, knowledge never really hurt anyone, right?

More like this

I can't guarantee he'll end up an atheist, but this is pretty similar to the start of my own deconversion, the major exception being that I didn't know any actual atheists until much later. (That's probably why I spent so long as a deist.)

By Benjamin Geiger (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Indeed, knowledge is not only power, but it is a shield.

By Free Lunch (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Wow, that's pretty sweet. Hopefully, you (and the rest of us) can reach out to more people that way. Bare minimum we'd have a more open and understanding world. Good job, PZ!

By IceFarmer (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

After all, knowledge never really hurt anyone, right?

I don't think he entirely missed the purpose of your speech.

That's great! I was under the impression death threats was all you recieved.

By Dale O'Flaherty (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Good for you, Josh. You've done some growing after PZ's presentation, though I suspect you're smart enough that you'd have come to it anyway. I also suspect you'll end up where I am, as a former Catholic. Keep asking the tough questions, and don't be afraid of where they lead.

I'm reminded of Professor Dawkins line:
"We are all atheists about most of the gods humanity has believed in, some of us just go one god further."

it's still a difficult step for some people.

One more person is going to hone and utilize their critical thinking skills. Whether or not this results in atheism is almost insignificant compared to the impact this might have on the average IQ of the nation, and the world. Fantastic!

Freethinkers FTW.

Yes! Great first steps towards thinking for yourself!

Great! This guy is probably on the road to rationalism. I hope that he continues to make progress.

I say this because it's no good, (other than for socializing reasons), to be steeped in ignorant Bronze Age superstition.

By Richard Harris (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Like alcoholism, realizing you have a disease (religion), is the first step to recovery (atheism).

Good work PZ.

Well, that is the point of having spokespersons who don't sweeten their message.

Some other persons will have to confront what religion actually says and does. It's more the undecideds, of course, though religious college students might be more open as well.

The fact is that in the end we'll only understand each other if we tell the truth. Even so, it's not at all bad to accept and to understand the others, so long as they do not simply throw a fit if you do tell the truth.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592

I think that's pretty wonderful. Kudos to Josh for deciding to renounce the hypocrites and think for himself.

By Sanity Jane (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Almost makes me start to choke up. Must be the teacher in me that wants so badly for my students to think for themselves no matter what they conclude and who make me so happy when they actually do that.

Congrats to you PZ, but especially to you Josh. Good luck to you!

awesome! one more critical thinker is ALWAYS a good outcome. I'd rather see him become a deist at least though... the cruelties of many christians are only possible because of the large number of moderate christians defending their faith.

@Benjamin Geiger (#2)

Conversions (and deconversions) are usually (or always) drawn out processes, whether gradual or punctuated. I believe that most people who claim to have had an instant conversion are forgetting all the intermediate steps that brought them to that pivotal moment.

Nice story, Josh!

And I am also glad that you are interested in Siddhartha Gautama, who was agnostic when it came to God and said that inquiring after first causes was feckless. His ideas are quite fruitful for humanists and show a way to spiritual satisfaction without any need for the supernatural. Indeed, stripped of the religious and superstitious accretions which have attached to Buddhism over the ages (and which would no doubt horrify him), his ideas seem strikingly modern.

Sakyamuni's teaching can be summarized as having four major components. These are:

The four truths;
The eight-fold way;
The impermanence of all created things;
The non-existence of self.
The four truths are:

Existence is suffering;
The cause of suffering is desire (or attachment);
People can achieve liberation from suffering;
Liberation is achieved by following the eight-fold way.

The eight-fold way is:

Right views
Right intention
Right speech
Right action
Right livelihood
Right effort
Right mindfulness
Right concentration.
The first seven steps on the path translate fairly straightforwardly into English, but "concentration" refers to a state attained in meditation, not to focusing intently on your work. A Buddha means a person who is awake, or illuminated. It refers to someone who has followed the 8-fold way and become liberated from suffering and illusion.

The idea that life is suffering does not mean that we are always suffering or never happy. However, pain and disappointment are the fate of all. Whatever we can acquire of worldly wealth, it is never enough. Whatever loving relationships we form, death will always end them if nothing else does. Whatever we want for our family, our town, our people, our society, our world, most of it we will never have. Suffering, then, arises from selfish craving. There is not space here to discuss impermanence and not-self, but for now I will just say that both of these ideas help to guide us on the 8-fold way to liberation, by showing us the futility of egoism and of clinging. The Buddhist ethic is one of selflessness and compassion. Wanting things for ourselves is ultimately the cause of disappointment and pain; caring for others, without clinging or selfish desire for material or emotional rewards, is part of the way to liberation.

To a humanist or realist, Sakyamuni's arguments are particularly respectable because he insisted that no-one should take anything he said on faith. His epistemology is empirical -- try it, and see if it works. Also, there is no moral pressure on anyone to either be a Buddhist or to follow the 8-fold way. When the time comes, and one is ready, it is there. If you're busy wallowing in worldly pleasures, that's your own business.

I'm not an atheist (sort of agnostic, I guess), and I completely understand this guy. I go to church on holidays with my family, and lately it has become harder and harder for me to sit through a Christmas service while realizing that even the Bible itself says nothing about a crowded inn, a stable, or exactly 3 magi. I think religious people wouldn't be so bad if they just didn't accept everything that is spoon-fed to them; this is a bad quality even among atheists. Even when I was a practicing Christian, it made me angry when other Christians in my church were anti-abortion or denied evolution by natural selection, since neither of these opinions is based on the Bible, and only on various propaganda they had received from somewhere else (they certainly didn't get it from my liberal Methodist church leaders).

I also congratulate the author.

By Fred Mounts (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

A great guy.

You know, I was an atheist all my life. But at the start it wasn't because I knew much, it was just because I knew nothing of religions. It wasn't part of my life. I wouldn't even say I was an atheist, because technically, I was just blank.

Then I stumbled on some girl on the internet who actually scared me shitless. She told me all about her christian beliefs and I actually listened. I just shot up and went "oh my god, I'm a young adult, I curse, I masturbate, I look at men with lust, and I don't have any blessings from the Lord beyond baptism! I'm going to HELL!". She shook me to the core because I did not have any information AT ALL about religions.

Therefore I went to the library, took a bible, brought it home and sat down. I read the bible. From cover to cover.

When I closed the back cover a week later, I was an atheist. A true one. I now had basic information. I never saw the loving god she saw and spoke to me about. I saw a monster.

Information and seeking knowledge is always important.

Nice going, Josh.

You wrote: "After all, knowledge never really hurt anyone, right?"

Wrong. Knowledge represents a dire, ever-looming existential threat to 'religion'... especially a dogmatic, doctrinal monstrosity such as Christianity.

Why would that be so? Easy... because 'belief' is the ILLUSION of knowledge.

That was very moving. Thanks for posting it PZ. It's very refreshing to see you get something other than death threats and people telling you to shut up because you're hurthing "our message".

And good for Josh, I hope he continues questioning and finds happiness in whatever belief system, or lack thereof, he ends up with.

By sublunary (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

My congratulations to the author.

I was in exactly his same position, and while he may not come down the same path I did, I am glad to hear that whatever he comes to understand as truth will be born out of critical thinking and questioning -- not blindly parroting what his peers say are the truths of the world.

That was lovely.

As much fun as it can be to read the letters from angry kooks, letters like this one are actually much more enjoyable.

What makes for dogmatism isn't the belief you hold, but how you hold it. Might you be wrong? What would or could -- or should -=- change your mind?

When I first started reading this letter, I assumed it was going to be another one of those "thank you so very much for strengthening my faith" responses. Those are not compliments, of course. Instead, the writer found that hearing a view that was so very contrary to the normal "faith is a wonderful thing" and "everyone believes in God" and happy clappy religion mantras suggested a new way of looking at religious belief.

Even if this gentleman's faith is later "strengthened" through his questioning, it is unlikely, reading his response to your lecture, that it will be a dogmatic form of faith. It will be held lightly, and in recognition that other views are not unthinkable.

“It is the role of unbelievers to force religions to be benign.” (Lutheran theologian Martin Marty)

That was lovely, PZ. It's nice to see that not all the email you get is from Teh Crazy.

Good luck to you, Josh. Whether you stick with your faith or not, it's never wrong to question. Keep it up.

Nice! A well-written, thoughful letter from someone who largely disagrees with you.

Sychophants rule!

What a sweet letter. Josh seems like a really thoughful and kind person.

I'm glad you posted this, because some times all that awful news gets depressing.

Good for you Josh, your God gave you a brain for a reason.

Nice email from a decent young man and someone who appears to be on the path to reason. P.Z. you initiated what I call a "bend in the path of life," changing a person's trajectory through the choices of life in a significant way (in simpler terms: A life-changing experience.)

I have been a defacto atheist for a long time. When asked about religion, I'd reply (dodge) with, "I was raised a Lutheran." I used to go to church with family and listen to religious talk with equanimity. no more, it all just shouts nonsense to me. I can't hear it the same way ever again. The scales are off and I can't go back.

After reading: The God Delusion, God Is Not Great, The Dn Of Faith, Breaking The Spell, on-line writings of Richard Carrier (Google him), and others, I felt the need to write out an essay on why I don't believe. It was a useful (and on-going) exercise in arranging my thoughts and formalizing my own beliefs.

We have the "New Commandments" in a frame on our wall in a prominent place at home (these are what we teach our kids):

1. Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you.
2. In all things, strive to cause no harm.
3. Treat your fellow human beings, your fellow living things, and the world in general with love, honesty, faithfulness, and respect.
4. Do not overlook evil or shrink from administering justice, but always be ready to forgive wrongdoing freely admitted and honestly regretted.
5. Live life with a sense of joy and wonder.
6. Always seek to be learning something new.
7. Test all things; always check your ideas against the facts, and be ready to discard even a cherished belief if it does not conform to the facts.
8. Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from dissent; always respect the right of others to disagree with you.
9. Form independent opinions on the basis of your own reason and experience; do not allow yourself to be led blindly by others.
10. Question everything.

To these ten, Richard Dawkins adds (The God Delusion):

11. Enjoy your own sex life, so long as it damages nobody else, and leave others to enjoy theirs in private whatever their inclination, as long as it harms nobody else, which are none of your business.
12. Do not discriminate or oppress on the basis of sex, race, or (as far as possible) species [I'd add: or personally-held ideas not imposed upon others.]
13. Do not indoctrinate your children. Teach them how to think for themselves, how to evaluate evidence, and how to disagree with you.
14. Value the future on a timescale longer than your own life.

Reminds me of one of my friends. We try to understand each other's point of view. I just want him to be as enlightened as I am...

Josh's attitude is anomalous amongst the religious; unfortunately. Good luck Josh.

"I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes..." Jesus, Matthew 11:25

"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence." David Hume

"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire

"Sit down before fact as a little child, be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abyss nature leads, or you shall learn nothing." Thomas Henry Huxley

A psychologist friend of mine is on the atheist fence at the moment. I think he was waiting for his father to die. Me, I did no such thing. Dad knows I'm a godless homosexual.

But good for you for making him think. We need to challenge more people in that way.

Just to be clear: We have all 14 on the wall at home:

1. Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you.
2. In all things, strive to cause no harm.
3. Treat your fellow human beings, your fellow living things, and the world in general with love, honesty, faithfulness, and respect.
4. Do not overlook evil or shrink from administering justice, but always be ready to forgive wrongdoing freely admitted and honestly regretted.
5. Live life with a sense of joy and wonder.
6. Always seek to be learning something new.
7. Test all things; always check your ideas against the facts, and be ready to discard even a cherished belief if it does not conform to the facts.
8. Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from dissent; always respect the right of others to disagree with you.
9. Form independent opinions on the basis of your own reason and experience; do not allow yourself to be led blindly by others.
10. Question everything.
11. Enjoy your own sex life, so long as it damages nobody else, and leave others to enjoy theirs in private whatever their inclination, as long as it harms nobody else, which are none of your business.
12. Do not discriminate or oppress on the basis of sex, race, or (as far as possible) species [I'd add: or personally-held ideas not imposed upon others.]
13. Do not indoctrinate your children. Teach them how to think for themselves, how to evaluate evidence, and how to disagree with you.
14. Value the future on a timescale longer than your own life.

That was really touching. And Josh, if you read this, you totally got the point; it's about freethought and rationalism, not about a particular belief.

I think he's on the road to deism at the very least. Also, an openness to skepticism and rational thinking apparently opens the way to spelling PZ's last name correctly.

That was really touching. And Josh, if you read this, you totally got the point; it's about freethought and rationalism, the process rather than the result. Atheism is just a rational conclusion from evidence.

Congratulations, PZ, on getting such a warm and thoughtful testimonial.

Congratulations also to Josh for his daring insights and his objectivity. The rational/skeptical approach to life is often difficult, but it leads to rich rewards -- namely a better understanding of reality and one's place in it.

~David D.G.

By David D.G. (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Good job Josh -

Knowledge is always a good thing, and those who try to tell you otherwise most likely wish to enslave you. Keep thinking!

By Epinephrine (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Even if your faith changes or disappears, the tough questions never go away. Something that even we godless smartypants need to remember.

This fellow is exactly as I was 14 years ago. If his mind remains open, he will probably end up an atheist.

I like him! I wish there were more Christians like him.

I like this letter an awful lot. My classrooms are full of young Christian Reformed Church members, and it would just do my heart good to have one or two or several of them come to these same conclusions.

But PZ is coming to my campus! Perhaps it could happen!

Plus, also, can we do a Pharyngufest after the talk on March 26th? Allendale or Grand Rapids Michigan? It'd be awesome! I got seriously giddy when a young student/friend of mine brought the poster into my office on Monday. Giddy I tell you! Oh! It's a week from TODAY!!! Totally geeked!

By gramomster (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

I like this letter an awful lot. My classrooms are full of young Christian Reformed Church members, and it would just do my heart good to have one or two or several of them come to these same conclusions.

But PZ is coming to my campus! Perhaps it could happen!

Plus, also, can we do a Pharyngufest after the talk on March 26th? Allendale or Grand Rapids Michigan? It'd be awesome! I got seriously giddy when a young student/friend of mine brought the poster into my office on Monday. Giddy I tell you! Oh! It's a week from TODAY!!! Totally geeked!

By gramomster (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

PZ, you did what all good teachers try to do, get a student to think. Well done to both of you.

By 'Tis Himself (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Good work, Josh.

Andrew Manderson took the words right out of my ... mind, I s'pose.

Benjamin Geiger, you took the words out of mouth. I was similar to him myself when I started asking about Christianity and eventually became an atheist.

Very thoughtful letter, Josh. You're alright!

By forksmuggler (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

*Standing Ovation for Josh*

*Standing Ovation for PZ*

*Putting Hands in Ice from all that Clapping*

By LanceR, JSG (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

I know I completely missed the purpose of your speech, but whether or not you actually accept my thanks isn't the point. I hope that maybe others of my faith can learn the lesson I did, and I definitely think that it's a good idea to listen what nonbelievers have to say.

I don't think you missed the point at all, Josh. I wish all the best to you, wherever your questions and search for knowledge take you.

I'm in the same group as Josh now. It's ironic how Christians in my life have pressed me on creationism and other things to get me to agree and believe the way they do, and my subsequent study of these ideas have pushed me away from them and that line of thought/belief. You're not alone Josh.

My own path to deconversion started by me simply reading the bible and trying to understand the message, rather than allowing myself to be told what it was saying.
From that point I quickly realised that a lot of people were the target of hatred from my church, when the bible did not seem to single them out for special treatment. For example, people would always tell me that the bible says homosexuality is an abomination, yet it says the same thing about gossip and most of the church goers, myself included, were happy to indulge in that.

Unfortuantely, once I separated myself from the different hatreds, there wasn't much left for me in the church.

It's not easy Josh but you probaly already know in your heart where this is leading. At least today you always have friends in places like this who will be ahppy to discuss things with you in a calm reasonable manner.

Good luck.

Kudos to Josh for being courageous enough to take the enormous step of beginning to question his beliefs. I wish him well on whatever path that first step takes him.

While I agree with everyone that critical thinking is a great virtue, I find the motivations revealed in the letter somewhat disheartening. Josh wrote:

But what horrified me the most wasn't the room full of atheists, or the seemingly impenetrable arguments you provided that I should completely dump my faith and see the world in a different light. What turned my stomach and threatened to send me off the edge were the stories you told of Christians giving the rest of us a bad name...

So it wasn't evidence or rational arguments (impenetrable, even) that made a bit of difference, it was Christian hypocrisy. But what do the actions of Christians have to do with the correctness of their belief system? Nothing at all. Even if all Christians were beacons of virtue, we would still have extremely good reasons to reject the veracity of Christianity. The letter is encouraging, but I hope Josh continues to question the basis of his faith.

Two thoughts: What do you think it was that gave this young man the impression that he missed the point of the talk? Do the religionists truly believe that we oppose religion per se or anything which isn't strictly rational de novo? Why isn't it clear when modern atheists present their case that we don't care what silly things anyone believes as long as they don't use it as a justification for hatred and oppression?

And: in response to cervantes - how is believing you know the path to "spiritual enlightenment" not the most worldly pleasure there is?

"After all, knowledge never really hurt anyone, right?"

Only the ones who wish to deny you that privilege.

Great letter Josh. In my 49 years, I've traveled a path from a parentally induced atheism, to woo and back to an atheism of choice. Sometimes I berate myself for being so needy that I abandoned reason and chaged headlong into the woo. But then, again, I would never have learned so much about myself or the world in which I live without trying on the emperor's new clothes for myself.

In the event you correspond with this person further, please recommend, along with the many other books you most likely will, "Misquoting Jesus" by Ehrman. Rreally good, and "opne from his camp" if you know what I mean.

JC

Great letter Josh. In my 49 years, I've traveled a path from a parentally induced atheism, to woo and back to an atheism of choice. Sometimes I berate myself for being so needy that I abandoned reason and chaged headlong into the woo. But then, again, I would never have learned so much about myself or the world in which I live without trying on the emperor's new clothes for myself.

Congratulations, Josh.

I am glad that your encounter with PZ has caused the scales to be peeled from your eyes. Take a look around. Learning for oneself should never stop.

Enjoy the journey!

Josh,

Thanks for sharing your intelligent thoughts with us through the pharyngula

Ironically Josh describes a "born again" experience. It's similar to my own college experience (but more dramatic). It's is not exactly as evangelicals prescribe, but college is the time to awaken to the broader perspectives of life and society. If you pass through college without the experience, you risk permanent tunnel vision.

tmaxPA,

I think your first few questions are very important. I struggle with these same sort of thoughts. I know we all get tired of the same questions being asked over and over by the theists that are truly questioning, but while I understand that much of the blame has to go to their indoctrination, I feel that we too must accept some for how we present ourselves and our message.

Thanx for posting this PZ. A 'good' story for a change ~ puts a smile on my face!

By Hipstermama (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

This warms my little black soulless heart! The most important thing is that everyone examine why they believe what they do and if they believe make sure it's for the right reasons. If your belief can't stand up to scrutiny and logic it is clearly misplaced and should be reassessed. I think Josh is on the right track here, congratulations PZ!

to JBlilie@31 I just love that listing of New Commandments, what a wonderful thing to teach children!

Why do people post their own blog-length comments on this blog? Kind of self-important don't you think? I mean, do you really think people are reading your 500 word essays? key-riced.

Anyway, I used to be one of them Joshes. This blog helped me along the way, with other parts of the interwebs and some books.

books-things people read when they want to read something long.

By uppity cracka (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

@25

Since you have quotation marks in your response to Josh, I will put your entire post in parentheses.
You said:

(Nice going, Josh.

You wrote: "After all, knowledge never really hurt anyone, right?"

Wrong. Knowledge represents a dire, ever-looming existential threat to 'religion'... especially a dogmatic, doctrinal monstrosity such as Christianity.

Why would that be so? Easy... because 'belief' is the ILLUSION of knowledge.)

Let me just point out that religion isn't a person so it doesn't qualify as an "anyone"- and that we give institutions the same rights as humans at our own risk. By now we are all likely aware of the attempts to criminalize anti religious speech by the UN. This based on the misguided point of view that religions should be protected in the same way as people.

Knowledge doesn't hurt anyone, and if it hurts religion, that is sufficient proof that the religion itself is false and therefore harmful.

As to something which is the illusion of knowledge, I know this seems like quibbling, but I'd call that faith.

Faith is belief without evidence.

A belief is just a model of something such as the world or relationships or whatever. As long as it is grounded, it works.

The reason I make a clear distinction there is that it is impossible to not have beliefs: the trick is keeping them reasonable.

I believe I'll now have some cookies and listen to Roy Zimmerman.

By DavidWillB (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

I've been reading this blog for a while now and haven't commented yet, but this e-mail just really got to me. It's great to see someone opening their mind and seeing what the problem is many of us atheists have with religion. I can't speak for all atheists, but I think most of us agree that if the religious would keep their beliefs to themselves we wouldn't be bothered by them.

Josh's story makes me think of a good friend of mine, a once strict Southern Baptist back in our high school days, who is now an atheist. Interestingly enough he went to a Baptist university not far from where Josh saw PZ speak which is one thing that caused him to start questioning aspects of his religion.

Very nice letter, Josh.

This person reminds me of my best friend, a lovely woman who is unrepentantly theistic, but in a very enlightened and liberal way. If all theists were like her, the world would be much better off, and Richard Dawkins and PZ and the rest would have a lot more time to do biology.

Quoth H.H.:

While I agree with everyone that critical thinking is a great virtue, I find the motivations revealed in the letter somewhat disheartening. Josh wrote:
But what horrified me the most wasn't the room full of atheists, or the seemingly impenetrable arguments you provided that I should completely dump my faith and see the world in a different light. What turned my stomach and threatened to send me off the edge were the stories you told of Christians giving the rest of us a bad name...

So it wasn't evidence or rational arguments (impenetrable, even) that made a bit of difference, it was Christian hypocrisy.

I disagree. We see time and time again that reason fails to persuade people who hold an unreasonable position such as religious faith. Instead it seems that arguments that hit them in the (emotional) gut is what really has persuasive power. He states very clearly that he is not an atheist, but he's obviously shed the mental fortifications that make the minds of so many believers impenetrable to reality. I'd say that's a very promising first step.

Martin

By Martin Christensen (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Been there. Know how he feels. It's downright terrifying, and I respect Josh for admitting it.

Even if he doesn't join us on the Dark Side, I think Josh's faith is the sort we can tolerate. :)

Josh, yes, you surely got a lot out of that PZ lecture and the posts and comments here. My very best compliment to you.

You wrote:

"...rather than just believing there's power in "holy" water or an oyster cracker."

Small aside; if a person can be convinced that water or crackers or a bit of cloth or a bone, or whatever can become access to the power of the universe, that person can also be convinced to do almost any other action that the authority commands them to do.

The authority loves power and uses the people for his/her delight.

Be yourself, not a tool.

By ThirtyFiveUp (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

tmaxPA wrote:

Why isn't it clear when modern atheists present their case that we don't care what silly things anyone believes as long as they don't use it as a justification for hatred and oppression?

Well, because I don't think that's necessarily true. I, for one, would rather that people didn't believe silly things. When people lack critical thinking skills, it affects everything. It can lead people to make poor medical choices, poor business decisions, poor consumer decisions, poor political choices, etc. In fact, just about all aspects of a properly functioning society can be detrimentally affected by an unenlightened citizenry. Hatred and oppression are at the extreme end of the scale, but eliminating them isn't extent of our goals. It's true that I have no interest in making people abandon their silly beliefs by force. Education and outreach are much preferred. But it would not be true to say that I simply don't care. Of course I care. I'm part of society as well and I'm dependent on its overall health.

@63, damn - and I haven't even had a martini ... yet.

That should read ... Really good, and "one from his camp".

Arrrghh... Proof read... everything!

Oh - and - Josh? What they said.

JC

Josh, I'm not sure I can remember when I last read such a lucid description of someone taking "the first step" towards a compassionate, decent, realistic attitude toward reality

Even if you still consider yourself a christian, you have taken a giant leap towards looking at the world, and your fellow human beings, in a sensitive, intelligent, objective way

Bravo (and keep it up)!

We should admire him for the courage to attend, the self honesty to question that which contradicted his ideas, to announce his ideas to someone likely portrayed by his compatriots as a "dangerous enemy," and most importantly, his willingness to think. If we could get all superstitious folk this far, the worst of the work would be over.

Ugh. Bad revision andd proofing there. Go ahead and fill in the grammatical blanks.

tmaxPA @ 60
"Do the religionists truly believe that we oppose religion per se"

Speak for yourself. In my case the religionists would be wholly correct in that assumption. Religion is repulsive.

Briefly de-lurking to add another quick testimonial....

This blog is one of the primary factors in my de-conversion from fairly devout theism to full-blown atheism/humanism over the past few years.

Sure, I've read a good number of the pertinent books -- Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, etc. -- all of which are illuminating in their own right. But somehow, seeing specific issues addressed in real time, in PZ's no-nonsense style, gave me the final "push" I needed to get completely clear of the god belief and into an evidence-based worldview.

Plus, watching the regular commenters dismantle arguments from clueless trolls, using equal parts logic, evidence, and snark, has been endlessly educational and entertaining. You folks are my kind of snarky!

So while we're being (rightly) self-congratulatory here, I just wanted to thank PZ and the Pharyngulites for helping me finally break out of the dogma. Keep doing what you're doing, and the battle for secularism and rationalism will be won. One mind at a time.

By entertaining_doubts (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Please say it was cc'd to Bill Donohue.

... with sincere apologies for length:

But what do the actions of Christians have to do with the correctness of their belief system? Nothing at all. Even if all Christians were beacons of virtue, we would still have extremely good reasons to reject the veracity of Christianity.

While I actually applaud the thrust of this argument, as it's one I've made myself in a certain form more than few times (as in: it's not actually that technically relevant whether or not the crusades occurred, or the inquisition--what's relevant is the quality of argumentation and evidence for a given worldview--or, shorter: you really shouldn't actually have catch someone killing people just to work out that they're full of shit when they claim transcendent means to knowledge), I do occasionally feel the need to add the following caveat:

The above notwithstanding, I do suspect at least some of the hypocrisy observed amongst adherents of religions may, in fact, stem directly from the fact that the basis on which belief is defended is what it is. And to get a bit braver, I would also go so far as to say I suspect it would be very, very difficult to create a religion without making hypocrites of your adherents.

It's a whole, long complicated thing, relies upon a lot of maybe only sorta educated guesses, maybe honestly more than half intuition. But the short version is this: It's in the nature of the beast. Religions deliberately force people to choose between simple honesty and loyalty to their group--it's part of how membership is established. And the underlying message is, ultimately (even if they are making paeans to the virtue of thinking things through on your own on the side) this: loyalty to your tribe is more important than honesty--or, put more brutally: call true what is most socially convenient for you to do so, even if it is an utter absurdity...

And that's a bit degrading, I'd say, all on its own. Other hypocrisies, other little lies in the service of defending the borders of your worldview, after that one, I kinda suspect, may not seem like much to add.

And here's the other half of it: for the Christian, at least (and probably lots of other systems besides), this guy's discomfiture actually makes some sense. Yes, technically the Christian theology specifically doesn't say believing any of this and going through the appropriate rituals of forgiveness is necessarily gonna make anyone perfect (just forgiven, remember), but remember also that quite frequently, this notwithstanding, the day to day justification for the benefit of religion against its absence is that it is really a better way to live--that unbelief will make you nasty and hopeless, and so on. And when a believer looks at his fellow believers, and they really don't look like it's made them much the kind of people he wants to be around, it's natural to develop some suspicions about the whole thing whether or not you've ever heard that sales job. It's just natural to ask: hey, is this even good for any of us?

So, the point is: no, hypocrisy proves nothing about the correctness nor incorrectness of a beliver's cosmology on its own, and it's even kinda gratuitous (if a claim makes no sense, it makes no sense, whether or not its adherents happen to be assholes) for the unbeliver to bother much pointing it out... And you certainly don't want to make that claim too directly, I'd say, as it's got certain limitations.

But on the flip side, it is probably inevitable that that hypocrisy will occur, possibly aggravated by religion being what it is, which is suggestive, at least--probably both to the doubting believer and others. And I wouldn't get too stressed that noticing that sort of thing is the place from which a believer starts developing questions, either... It'd be nice to think they could just see what a crock the very basis of the claims being made is directly, but not everyone is going to get to that without additional nudges toward doing so. Like a lot of people have pointed out: Damascus road conversions aren't normally the way this works--it takes time. And noticing the ugliness of behaviour is frequently going to be one of those nudges that gets people started, for reasons that do make some sense, at least.

I think that fellow deserves a standing ovation! If more religious folks took that attitude the world would be a much more awesome place.

"After all, knowledge never really hurt anyone, right?"

Just Adam & Eve.

Seriously, learning to think for yourself is a very important step for all things in life; not just religion. Congratulations, Josh.

Josh, what everyone else said. It sounds like you are on the path to critical thinking, which I beleive everyone here will agree is a good thing.

That was me five years ago. If his story goes anything like mine, he'll stop calling himself a Christian soon enough, and eventually the word "Atheist" will seem more and more appropriate.

Josh: "I know I completely missed the purpose of your speech..."

No you didn't. Looks to me like you listened:

"I've resolved to stop sitting in church and being spoon fed pre-cooked beliefs, and to start seeking answers by asking questions I was afraid to before."

And that, dear sir, is the whole idea. Your letter to PZ was refreshingly thoughtful - thanks to you (and to PZ) for sharing them.

By astrounit (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

What an interesting and usual post, and great comments. Thanks all, and happy monkeys all around.

The closest thing to actual magic I've ever encountered is what a good teacher can do to a mind.

Hey, excellent. Someone learning to break out of those rigid lines... good for him.

Whatever conclusions he reaches, as long as he's not being an utter tool on the way, I say more power to him.

Best.I-Get-Mail.Ever. (and I love those kooks)

That is All

Thank you, Josh, for being brave enough to think for yourself (no matter where it leads), and thank you, Prof. Myers, for sharing this.

AJ Milne, solidly-argued comment. I agree as well. As I said, my hope is that this seed of doubt planted by PZ germinates into fully developed critical thinking. But my fear is that Josh will simply gravitate toward another religion which he feels to be more morally upright. I think based on his stated reasoning, it's just too early to tell.

The letter only superficially gives PZ credit. This individual is acknowledging the value of observation and facts in the formulation of reason. This alone is anti-faith and will forever be an ember that smolders from within. Only he can fan it into a flame and only when the time is right.
-- good on ya for being so open!

I think everybody should be forced to take a class on the religions of the world. It should be required much earlier than college, I think in jr. high school at the latest because most people at least get that far. I wouldn't want someone who drops out of high school to miss out on this important curriculum. As much credit as Josh gives to PZ for his change of heart, I can't help but think that his in depth look into other religions played a significant role. No matter who you are or what you believe, there are things that others believe that will make you go "You've got to be kidding me". And then maybe they will examine their own beliefs in that light. I just watched an excerpt of Julia Sweeney's "letting Go of God" where she talks about how hearing two mormon missionaries relating their mormon beliefs made her realize that christianity was really just as absurd when looked at objectively. One of the best moments in Bill Maher's "Religulous" was when he was preaching scientology on a street corner and the laughter he received. Christians need to realize that their beliefs are just as ridiculous to the free and rational thinker. To be honest the idea of an evil alien overlord is slightly less of a stretch of the imagination for me as is an all-powerful, all-etc.etc. eternal creator god. At least I could explain the evil alien overlords existence by a process of evolution by natural selection.

I think what really turned Josh’s life around is that he actually opened his mind and allowed himself to experience an awful truth: the sneering evil that lurks just below the surface of most religions. That takes a kind of courage, IMO, that many Christians are afraid to muster.

Wow. A letter which, I imagine, has warmed the tentacles of PZ's heart. :) It is a real refreshment after the off-the-meds Bible brigade's screeds. A world of Joshes would be infinitely more preferable to this world of Dobsons, Falwells, Khomeinis and Kahanes, to name only a handful of ugly, vituperative bigots.

I think one of the wonderful things that Josh took away from this was a sense of what it feels like to be an atheist, and that he was able to see through the sense of alienation he must have felt himself. That's an impressive feat for anyone.

I was never really more than a deist/agnostic, and I've self-identified as an atheist since 1991.

I distinctly remember sitting in Sunday school (my grandparents pressured my parents to send me) and thinking that there must be no way anyone believed this stuff. It still boggles my mind that anyone believes in a literal Bible.

I used to want to avoid indoctrinating my children -- however, if you go too much with a hands-off approach others will quickly move in. I'll immunize them; if they wish to go for woo after that, so be it.

By CrypticLife (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

I call Poe on this one.

What a great start to my day!!!

Congrats Josh for starting the process of looking at the world in a rational and critical manner. Could I suggest that you build social networks around you to ensure you do not end up isolated as you distance yourself from friends in theists circles.

PZ, the work you are doing in biology in addition to challenging both students and, through this blog the more general public is amazing. You have not been the sole reason (or even major), but I dropped my corporate IT job many months ago and am attempting to freelance teach. Not a single student yet, but I only started getting the word out yesterday (and will soon have to leave to continue the task). After setting up a modest 3 student classroom I elected to save advertising costs and have set up vigil on the main road, outside a bookstore, to let townspeople know what education I am offering. I don't expect to make much money but hopefully cover bills - and at least it is honest work.

PZ and Josh are an inspiration to me. It is a long way from 3 students to building a university, but I never claimed to be sane, just attempting to be rational. ;) One mind at a time!!

By Peter McKellar (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Triumph of intellect over dogma. A beautiful thing.

I still believe in God, and I still consider myself a Christian, but I'm seeing things in a different light.

I'm not going to congratulate you, Josh, because you're still out of your freaking mind. God is just another word for magic, and only the insane believe in magic. Your calling yourself a Christian is even worse. There has been no invention more nutty and more disgusting than the Christian death cult.

You're making progress, Josh, but you're still part of the problem. Please consider the benefits of accepting reality instead of having a childish belief in a magic god fairy and Jeebus.

What a great young man! Good for him for thinking for himself.

I've met a few other folks like this in my lifetime. I won't make any predictions for Josh in particular, but I will say that all the people I've ever known who thought critically about their beliefs ended up atheists in the end. And are quite happy that way, of course.

Good on you Josh, and you PZ. I just hope very much that the Christians don't give you too hard a time when you begin to try to tell them they're getting things slightly wrong.

Wow, that was amazing! What a touching letter. Good for you PZ, just look at what you did! Waita go Josh, keep up the good work.

I really commend Josh for not only sitting through an assault on his beliefs, but actually overriding his emotional reactions by thinking about the content.

Whether he remains a Christian or not is almost irrelevant. Religion can mean different things to different people. But actually challenging the ideas that are given to you is an enormous shift in perspective. If he remains a Christian, at least he will do his best to filter through the noise and find the things that are actually important (love thy neighbor yadda yadda).

Of course, personally, once I started doing that, I could not help but throw all that shit out the window, but there are some valuable lessons that can be gleaned from the Bible. There are valuable lessons that can be gleaned from _Harold and the Purple Crayon_, too.

Frankly, of the two, I prefer the Purple Crayon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6TXz38DzDY

In any case, hooray for Josh's epiphany.

That really is a wonderful thing. The gift of truth is precious.

A Major Attaboy to you, Josh!

Your bravery in the face of fear, your curiosity in the face of the strange and unpleasant and your honesty in the face of challenge is serving you well. Pay close attention to the honesty part, specifically being honest with yourself which is damned hard.

I've been down that old road you are now on and I can only tell you that it divides and subdivides again and again. So when you come to a fork in the road, just take it. I salute you, young man!

And to all the others here:
Look, everybody!! A religious believer who listens and responds! Who is bold enough to admit that he is deeply moved and expresses his intent to study, observe and think for himself!
How 'bout that? I feel kind of warm and cozy, don't ya'll?

PZ, I didn't hear your talk but you must have been in particularly good form that night. Perhaps touched by a tentacle?

By Crudely Wrott (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

A very well written and articulate email. The guy's sharp, that's for sure. Hopefully, he'll never stop questioning. And maybe he'll find his way to our way of thinking.

Give him a year, he'll be an atheist. As he starts to look into the reasons behind the beliefs, he'll find out there aren't any, and that will be that.

I hope somebody tells Josh that PZ will be returning to Missouri State in the Fall along with some other rather large names in skepticism. It would be a good time to thank PZ personally, and I'm sure it could be arranged.

JT

bobxxxx @107: I'm gonna go all Nisbetish on you and say: Boo! - bad show.

cm @104, I don't get any sense of fakery about the email.

My sentiments are entirely in line with the thread consensus: I'm heartened by the testimonial and applaud both Josh for his thank-you to PZ, and PZ for sharing.

By John Morales (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

I shall add my voice to the growing crescendo.

Good on'ya, Josh! And keep fighting the good fight, PZ!

I shall add my voice to the growing crescendo.

Good on'ya, Josh! And keep fighting the good fight, PZ!

Wotta buncha wimps. One believer sends our esteemed host a message which isn't a death threat, and everybody (except cm@ # 104 & bobxxx@ # 107) starts falling all over themselves patting him on the back.

What happened to all that fire-breathing, acid-spitting, red-clawed rage against all things even slightly holy that gave Pharyngula its unique webwide reputation? Neville Chamberlain would kick y'alls' butts and eat your crackers!

* stomps off to find some True Atheists™ *

By Pierce R. Butler (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Josh

Put on your seatbelt.

The Cosmos is HUGE. It is composed of BILLIONS of galaxies.

Our insignificant galaxy is composed of billions (and billions) of stars and planets.

On this, our lonely planet, apes like you and I exist. We are here, we perceive ourselves and each other, we know we exist.

That's it, though. There is no god, no soul, everything we are is contained in the physical brain and body. When you die you're dead.

Accepting these truths is the path...

I would like to warn the writer of this letter that he's doing the same thing that ended up with me becoming an Atheist. It took a long time, but after years of digging deeply into my religious beliefs I came to the conclusion none of them had any merit.

By VegeBrain (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Thanks for posting this, PZ. It's nice to know that you get something other than death-threats.
I can't be hard on Josh because his story's like the beginning of my deconversion, only in my case I was very into Wicca. It took being assigned the intro to The Demon-Haunted World and two issues of Skeptic magazine as part of a science class to really start challenging my beliefs. That first step was the hardest.

What happened to all that fire-breathing, acid-spitting, red-clawed rage against all things even slightly holy that gave Pharyngula its unique webwide reputation?

What, we can't take a vacation now and then?

The rage isn't against all things holy anyway. Just the hostile nutjobs.

I call Poe on this one.

I don't think you can call Poe on something which is coherent, not riddled with speling or ,grammatical!, errors or random CAPITALisatiON and which does speak fervently in defence of God using the most bizarre analogies and metaphors or magical thinking.

There was a guy I knew in high school, who I can only describe as a dogmatic atheist. I, at the time, considered myself an atheist, but this guy... the way he acted scared me. I became an atheist as part of a search for logic and understanding. He was an atheist because his parents were- which was fine- but, beyond that, he honestly didn't know why he was. He was being spoon-fed beliefs, just like so many of the Christians around him. It didn't matter that what he was being taught was what seemed "logical" or "correct", it was that he took it without questioning or deeper understanding.

I once asked him if anything at all could convince him that there was a deity, or deities. He said, "nothing". Not, "I don't believe anything ever will," "nothing." And he meant it. I've always known what it would take to change my mind, but I'm fairly certain those things won't happen. He never questioned.

So, Josh- to me, you're fantastic. A breath of fresh air. Because it seems to me that we forget how most of us arrived where we are now- through questioning. And it seems to me that, all too often, we close ourselves off from anything that might run contrary to what we believe.

The point is, I guess, that it really doesn't matter what beliefs you're spoon-fed. Everything, every piece of knowledge, should be taken with a grain of salt. Regardless of what someone believes, they should always know why they believe it. Without that, it's not belief or knowledge or right, it's just religion.

I call Poe on this one.

Then you don't understand the concept. If you're claiming that Josh is too reasonable to be a Christian, your opinion is not entitled to support from Poe's logic ... which is that fundamentalism is so wacky that it's impossible to create a parody of it that someone won't mistake for the real thing.

By nothing's sacred (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Good Job PZ.
And you know, I really don't care if he ever becomes an atheist or an agnostic, as long as he thinks about what he believes and DOES.

Boy, I just want to give Josh a huge hug. That tiny breech in the wall is all we ask. I don't want to make anyone give up their faith. I just want them to view the world honestly and rationally. I hold no dogmatic belief in any scientific theory. Im prepared to throw any of them out the window if they are falsified. I expect no less of anyone else.

By Revyloution (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

It won't be long before Josh will be sitting in his church listening to a sermon and all he'll hear is blah blah blah, blah, blah blah, blah blah blah. If it's good works he's interested in he'll eventually find a less sanctimonious, hypocritical path. You've lit (lighted?...litten?) a candle in the dark.

He was being spoon-fed beliefs

You mean he was being spoon-fed non-beliefs?

I once asked him if anything at all could convince him that there was a deity, or deities. He said, "nothing".

I would say the same. Barring powerful drugs, brain surgery, or something else that severely interferes with my cognitive functions, nothing can convince me of a logically and semantically incoherent proposition. Of course, if one redefines "deity" to mean "cracker", "powerful alien", or "natural phenomenon that I don't comprehend" then, under that meaning of the term, I can be convinced that "deities" exist.

I've always known what it would take to change my mind

So anyone who doesn't share your belief as to whether your change of mind would be warranted must be brainwashed?

He never questioned.

Could you possibly be mistaken?

By nothing's sacred (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

You've lit (lighted?...litten?) a candle in the dark.

Enlightened. You're welcome.

I wish I could shake Josh's hand.
Props for that letter. And MORE props for opening his mind and, not necessarily shedding his beliefs, but looking at them in different lights and from different angles.

By Johnb300m (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Yes, it's wonderful to hear of anyone deciding to actually think. It's depressingly uncommon. Good for you, Josh. Stay on the path of knowledge, wherever it may lead.

I think everybody should be forced to take a class on the religions of the world.

A depressing instance in my community college this semester: At the start of our second Art Appreciation class , a young woman - let's call her Faith - burst into the classroom and asked, "Is it true that you have room for another student? Because I'm dropping this religion class I've been taking! I'm not a Muslim or a Hindu, I'm a Christian, and I don't want to hear any of that stuff!" Our prof, looking very bemused, said she did indeed have an opening, and off went Faith to drop her religion class and enroll in Art.

I knew this wasn't going to go well. Art Appreciation, at our very multi-cultural community college, is a diversity credit, which means that one of the focuses is going to be world art, the art of many cultures and religions. I waited with anticipation Faith's discovery of the fact that we were actually studying a Hindu gate, with all of its gods and interesting religious symbols, that very day in class!

Sure enough, Faith was not a happy camper. She was a scary one, too. She got mad and snorted through her nose and generally acted like a crazy person. I kept trying to remember that a lot of her reaction was based on fear, that maybe she was encountering views contrary to her own for the very first time and didn't know what to do with this. I hoped she'd stay in the class, although I'd have to say I was alone in this; most everyone, religious and not, was infuriated by her flatly rude statements about any view that differed from what, as she put it, "My bible tells me!" I did hope she'd get her eyes opened, though.

It was not to be. She dropped the class, apparently. At least she never came back after her second or third try. Faith was no Josh, so it's doubly good to hear that free thinking does sometimes happen as a result of exposure to different ideas.

Josh, if you're reading this: good man yourself. I don't know where you'll end up in terms of theistic belief, but even if it is a belief that most people here would disagree with, it is clear that you will be holding that belief in (no pun intended) good faith. It is great that you are (unlike most religious people) asking yourself the right questions, and that is in most ways more important than whether you get the answers right.

On a broader point, PZ and some of the commenters are having a bit of fun with the "abrasive versus diplomatic atheism" thing. May I suggest that people on both sides of that conversation are missing the point. Josh reminds me of me a couple of years ago. When I started reading this website, I was a Christian (maybe not terribly orthodox, but a Christian). Today I no longer have any religious beliefs. Back then, I didn't much care for the abrasive style PZ and some commenters brought to bear, but nor did it much bother me. These days I feel the same (indeed if anything I am slightly less indulgent of abrasiveness now than I was then). But none of that matters. The argument is merely about style. Regardless of whether one sounds like Holbach or like Guy Harrison, the point is the same: ask yourself why you believe what you think you believe. I asked myself, and eventually concluded that I really didn't have any good reasons for believing the things I did (so I stopped believing them). This website had its part in that process, but the style of argument used here didn't make a great deal of difference.

Anyway, good luck to Josh.

An open mind how unusual.

Regardless of what someone believes, they should always know why they believe it. Without that, it's not belief or knowledge or right, it's just religion.

You're creating a false equivalence. Consider one person who believes that your astrological birth sign controls your destiny and can provide elaborate explanations as to why, and another person who pooh-poohs the notion and says it's ridiculous, but is unable to articulate why. According to you, it's the latter person who is religious. Now suppose that you befriend the nonbeliever and, in a casual conversation, when his guard is down, you say that astrology is stupid, and the nonbeliever says "Yeah, the stars in constellations aren't in the same place and often are whole galaxies!" Sometimes beliefs are so absurd that people have trouble even conceiving of how any sane person could believe them, and have trouble pinning down exactly why they are so absurd. Of course some absurd-seeming ideas turn out to be valid, but there's still a big difference between adhering to a dogma and not adhering to it.

By nothing's sacred (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

I would say the same. Barring powerful drugs, brain surgery, or something else that severely interferes with my cognitive functions, nothing can convince me of a logically and semantically incoherent proposition.

If something entirely illogical were to happen- say, a deity were to descend from the sky amid choirs of angels and do something generally deity-ish, I might change my mind. I might also think I were insane. I think that there's no evidence that something like this will ever happen, because as far as I can tell, the universe IS logical.

So anyone who doesn't share your belief as to whether your change of mind would be warranted must be brainwashed?

I don't think I implied that, and I'm not entirely certain where you're going with it. It's late at night, and maybe I'm just being dense, but could you clarify a bit?

Could you possibly be mistaken?

Very possibly. It's been several years since I last saw this kid. But when I knew him? I highly doubt it.

I think maybe I wasn't clear in my previous comment. If someone tells you something, like "there is no God" and you accept in unquestioningly, it's my opinion that that is just as bad for yourself as being told "there is a God" and accepting it without question. I think that believing the first unquestioningly is far less detrimental to society than believing the second unquestioningly, but you are doing yourself a disservice if you don't stop to look at the evidence for your position, and either affirm it or reject it based on that evidence.

I think it should be obvious that all evidence points to a lack of any sort of creator, but that's exactly the point. It's about inquiry and evidence.

Regardless of what someone believes, they should always know why they believe it. Without that, it's not belief or knowledge or right, it's just religion.

You're creating a false equivalence. Consider one person who believes that your astrological birth sign controls your destiny and can provide elaborate explanations as to why, and another person who pooh-poohs the notion and says it's ridiculous, but is unable to articulate why. According to you, it's the latter person who is religious. Now suppose that you befriend the nonbeliever and, in a casual conversation, when his guard is down, you say that astrology is stupid, and the nonbeliever says "Yeah, the stars in constellations aren't in the same place and often are whole galaxies!" Sometimes beliefs are so absurd that people have trouble even conceiving of how any sane person could believe them, and have trouble pinning down exactly why they are so absurd. Of course some absurd-seeming ideas turn out to be valid, but there's still a big difference between adhering to a dogma and not adhering to it.

By nothing's sacred (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Nice letter, Josh. Thanks PZ, for overcoming your extreme modesty and sharing this. I think Josh, you may be more likely headed towards becoming born-again, than losing your faith. I think you seem most upset by the catholic church, and some protestant sects that call themselves freethinking(in relation to church doctrine), may appeal to you more. Clinging to the fellowship, rituals and traditions is fine, but look as far into science, especially evolution and cosmology, as you can to find out what many of us find is the most compelling evidence that the wonders and beauty in the world do not require a creator. Religion will collapse like a house of cards without the need for a god, a soul, and an afterlife.

By chuckgoecke (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Josh (if you're still reading this thread):

As JackC pointed out above, Bart Ehrman is someone who also has looked into the reasons behind the rules and has written some excellent books about it. Here's a link to a list of his stuff at amazon (no, not an affiliate link): http://is.gd/nXNa

Hope you find his work as enlightening as I did.

Go Josh, go!
Keep thinkin'!

By Nominal Egg (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

If something entirely illogical were to happen

You don't understand the concept of "logic" -- it doesn't mean "that which I can explain" or "that with which I'm familiar". Nothing that is "entirely illogical" can happen.

a deity were to descend from the sky

Uh, do you know what "beg the question" means?

amid choirs of angels and do something generally deity-ish

Sigh. What are "angels" and how do you tell if something is one? What is "deity-ish"? What part of "semantically incoherent proposition" don't you understand? Whatever you have in mind for "deity-ish", what you lack is a proof that it isn't natural, and you will always lack such a proof, unless the occurrence truly is illogical -- entails a logical contradiction -- in which case you would always be mistaken if you claimed it occurred.

as far as I can tell, the universe IS logical.

Logic is independent of the facts of any universe. Whatever you mean by "logical", it has nothing to do with actual logic.

But when I knew him? I highly doubt it.

Like any good dogmatist.

I think maybe I wasn't clear in my previous comment.

Because it's impossible that you've been caught in an error?

If someone tells you something, like "there is no God" and you accept in unquestioningly

You have not provided any evidence that your friend accepted anything unquestioningly. What you did was note that he said that nothing could convince him that there are deities, and presented that as evidence that he accepted something unquestioningly -- apparently because you can't conceive of a rational basis for such a blanket denial. What I did was refute that inference.

but you are doing yourself a disservice if you don't stop to look at the evidence for your position, and either affirm it or reject it based on that evidence.

Given the logic against the religious proposition, one need barely glance at the evidence ... which is overwhelmingly against it. And your tale has nothing to do with evidence, but rather with feverish imaginings about "angels" and "deity-ish" happenings.

By nothing's sacred (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Josh reminds me a little of my best friend. 25 years ago we met at a church youth dance. He stayed a christian, I became (or rather recognized that I was) an atheist.

We've stayed friends in part because he's awesome, but also in part because he really does try to live what he thinks is the christian example - the church we were raised in is very much into social justice theology (signing amnesty international letters was a monthly event, for example), and he takes that sort of thing deeply to heart.

He never preaches or tries to convert - he just tries to do the right thing, while still being 47 kinds of fun.

And he's a theistic evolutionist, a position I don't really argue with much...

By CanadianChick (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

I coasted along as a "doubting Christian" for a long time.

First I thought I needed to change churches; then I thought maybe I needed to change denominations; finally I even considered changing religions. The more I studied the worse the problem became.

The one day it hit me. (No doubt while reading a Dawkins book.) I was like, "NO religious belief... You mean that's one of my possible choices?!? No one ever told me that!"

P.S.

I've always known what it would take to change my mind

and then

If something entirely illogical were to happen- say, a deity were to descend from the sky amid choirs of angels and do something generally deity-ish, I might change my mind. I might also think I were insane.

It's so easy to catch the anti- "dogmatic atheist" dogmatists in hypocritical inconsistencies. Methinks this one owes his/her high school buddy an apology.

By nothing's sacred (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

@ Chris #147 who said: "The one day it hit me. (No doubt while reading a Dawkins book.) I was like, "NO religious belief... You mean that's one of my possible choices?!? No one ever told me that!"

I know the feeling, Chris. Don't you wish you could bottle it and sell it?!

By Crudely Wrott (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Good show, Josh. I'm always happy to see religious people willing to question their own beliefs and doubt what they've been told. And even if he never gets all the way to atheism, at least he's thought about his beliefs to an extent that a lot of believers never do.

I suppose because I wasn't raised particularly religious, I always found it strange that some people have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that some people are non-believers. In a sociology class in my first year of college, when atheism was mentioned, a girl exclaimed "WHAT??? Some people don't believe in God???" like it was the craziest thing she'd ever heard. The sheltered life she must have led sort of staggered me.

or they choose which biblical rules they want to follow and which to ignore,

These are actually scary words, indicative of hardline fundamentalism still lurking in Josh's head.

Jesus encourages picking and choosing. See Matthew 15:3-6, unless you think Jesus is seriously telling the Pharisees that they ought to stone their children to death, rather than making a point about how using common sense to reinterpret the Bible is a good thing for all involved.

I call Poe on this one.

I don't think you can call Poe on something which is coherent, not riddled with speling or ,grammatical!, errors or random CAPITALisatiON and which does speak fervently in defence of God using the most bizarre analogies and metaphors or magical thinking.

I call Poe on this, too.

I call Poe on this one.

Then you don't understand the concept. If you're claiming that Josh is too reasonable to be a Christian, your opinion is not entitled to support from Poe's logic ... which is that fundamentalism is so wacky that it's impossible to create a parody of it that someone won't mistake for the real thing.

Another Poe!

[at some point, like now, I will admit that my original "call" was a joke powered by the concentration gradient of all the sudden atheist-on-Christian bonhomie]

Yes, this is a great story to hear - I wonder how many more are happening without us knowing. If all religious people thought the same way, the world would become a wonderful place, with peace and tolerance a real possibility.

Yay, Josh! And thanks, PZ. The best thing about the letter is that Josh is questioning and thinking, not just wildly converting to atheism on the spur of the moment. No, the best thing is that he is sincere about what happened, and giving credit where credit is due. Such an attitude will lead to truth, surely.

Josh, I went to MSU back when it was SMSU, and had a friend who was named Josh. If you take after him, you are going to do great. Good luck.

That Josh and I founded the first atheist student group on campus, and had a hell of a time getting it set up. There are 2 Bible Colleges in that town, two or three other Christian-oriented colleges and academies, and only SMSU as a non-Biblical institute of higher learning. But the SMSU campus crawled with Christian student groups. Our group couldn't even get a sponsor! We decided that the group was kind of pointless, as atheists are not group-type people, and too much work. We let it fold when we graduated.

By Menyambal (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

Yeah .. PZ did this to me as well, but it was in an out of body usenet forum. He beat me up quite a bit .. constantly berating me with such things as logic and common sense.

The change was gradual. At first it was merely a desire of acceptance of my thoughts and ideas on an intellectual level. (non scientist here)

After a while I didn't give a fig about acceptance anymore. I just wanted the truth dammit.

And guess what. I can handle the truth!

Not only that, I craved it. Suddenly the supernatural lost it's lustre, and the natural became extraordinary.

(My brain can do that! How cool is that?!)

So I can relate to Josh. See you in a bit Josh, once you start to question, the world becomes the most wonderful, awe inspiring place ...

Josh, I've told this story so many times here, to the point of boredom, so I'll make it short:

I attended a presentation on Leviticus, and left the religion that night. It was easy to do.

Not saying you should do the same, don't get me wrong. But if you've never read that book, I suggest it strongly. All I could think was, "Wow, God believes that?? That's just not wise. Hmmm."

That was 1983, and I regard this decision as one of the best I've ever made. You're not me, and this may not be right for you. But I didn't intend to break up with God that night, either. It really felt right, and still does.

Good luck, either way.

And please, Josh, come back and let us know how it goes for you. If you would like to, of course. I can tell you that there are a lot of people who would like to know what happens next. Not so that we can gossip your confessions across the inner tubes but because we hope to be informed and encouraged by perchance learning that something that we might have said has made a difference to someone not holding our point(s) of view. That what we hold as true has shown benefit for another. That we are human and make a difference. That we can love our brother, our neighbor not through coercion or threat but simply because we can and we have always liked the idea.

We don't expect a pat outcome, that is, we don't collectively and automatically assume that you will see the light frequently described here. But we do care that you see some kind of light intelligently, consciously and with more than your feelings to guide you.

Like the good book says, "Seek and it shall be revealed to you." The principle is valid in the world of unbelief too. Learn all you can. Devour knowledge.

Good luck.

By Crudely Wrott (not verified) on 18 Mar 2009 #permalink

My story is similar to this one, I grew up in a quite fundamentalist home. Darwin was a tool for Satan, as were Mohammed. You don't want to hear my father's view on homosexuals.

The start of my total loss of faith was caused by two books; "The Blind Watchmaker" which made me think "Hey, this evolution-thing actually makes sense when told this way instead of how the guys in church tell it" and the Bible (I read the whole thing, not just the fragments we were told to read) which made me think "God said that? God did WHAT? This guy is supposed to be the source of all good and morals? Screw you guys, I'm out of here!"

Good luck to you Josh, thinking for yourself is the first step towards a better life.

Oh, that kid is doomed. No real Christian can write with nearly perfect grammar, spelling, and punctuation. Not even close. I mean, come on, he even knows that "after all" is two words. He's going to Hell for sure.

Jay

Oh, that kid is doomed. No real Christian can write with nearly perfect grammar, spelling, and punctuation. Not even close. I mean, come on, he even knows that "after all" is two words. He's going to Hell for sure.

Jay

I know I completely missed the purpose of your speech...

I wasn't there, so I can't be sure, but it seems to me that you got it just fine, Josh :)

"Do not believe these things because I've told you to, but find truth through your own experiences." I've adopted that to the core of my beliefs.

...in fact, you could be the new poster boy for "getting the point"!

Josh has taken the first step, using reason to examine what it is he believes and why. It took me many years of playing lip service to something I did not believe in, asking questions I knew could not be answered, trying to pray for faith I couldn't feel, all this before finally admitting to myself I was an atheist and had been one for a long time. I found PZ's place about the time I was reveling in this new found, very freeing, self revelation. Phew! Talk about being born again.

By Jeanette Garcia (not verified) on 19 Mar 2009 #permalink

Benjamin Geiger said:

"I can't guarantee he'll end up an atheist, but this is pretty similar to the start of my own deconversion, the major exception being that I didn't know any actual atheists until much later. (That's probably why I spent so long as a deist.)"

Very similar journey here, too. I tackled a group of scientists on a forum connected to the online writers' critique group I belonged to at the time, defending creationism. Boy, did I walk away from that one with a bloody nose. But I also walked away from it with eyes opened, realising the Christians were more often the ones who did all the nasty stuff - blatant lies, attacking the person rather than the subject, issuing scary threats - while the atheists were more likely to be reasonable, polite and ethical. The specific group I debated even became nice to me once they realised I was misled, not a fanatic.

As someone who has difficulty understanding science, it was hard for me at first to grasp the concepts they explained to me. However, once I educated myself with regards to theory/hypothesis, abiogenesis/evolution and so on, I became aghast and embarrassed at being associated with crackpots such as creationists by virtue of being a Christian. My faith survived, as I found other justification for it, but I was so ready to toss the whole load of crap when more research on my husband's side showed us the bible is not what we were taught it is, and that our faith was based on lies.

I am now happy to call myself an atheist, with a few qualifications I won't bore you with here.

Sounds like my deconversion from Catholicism. Ask a few "wtf does the cracker/confession/the roasry/anything actually do?" questions, be presented with stuff clearly made up on the spot or irrelevant answers, decide everyone's bullshitting me, drop Catholicism. Fast forward to 16 years old, and my realization that none of the above was an actual valid answer to religion, and suddenly I'm an atheist.

I still haven't figured out if the people in charge know they're full of shit or not, but I know that they are, and no other religion is better, so fuck em.

Looks like he's taking the first step on the road to recovery: he seems to have started thinking for himself instead of swallowing all the pre-thought religion.

On one hand, we have the advocates of reality, reason, and free thought. On the other, we have the advocates of mythology, arbitrary power rules, and oppression. It doesn't take a world-class brain to tell the difference, or world-class virtue to decide which one is preferable.

Any atheist will praise you for thinking for yourself, even if your thinking does not lead you to atheism in the end. Religion only wants you to stop thinking.

By speedwell (not verified) on 19 Mar 2009 #permalink

This guy is me 4 months before I realized that the most honest way to approach the question of god's existence is from the neutral position (atheism).

I was raised a catholic and live in a catholic country. When my father was a kid it was a sin to go the beach during Easter week or you could be transformed in fish! Now people flood the beaches and leave the church to a few.However many of these people consider themselves catholics or at least christians. They don't realize their own contradictions but on the other side you can be assured they won't march in defense of the Pope and his position about sexual abstinence and condoms! Neither they will march at a Pope's order to invade non Catholic countries to convert the heathens as some protestants think (yes, some are that gullible). I even have the impression that many catholic priests realize how ridiculous is the official position of the church in several matters, but they just show agreement... and make what is practical to help people. Many christians are intelligent, well behaved people. They fell in contradictions without realizing it, but unless they begin to behave like the kooks mentioned by PZ, they don't deserve contempt or ridicule.

Give him a year, he'll be an atheist.

Not necessarily. He still calls himself a Christian. The Christian religion is pure bullshit and only mentally disturbed people believe in it. This person still has a very serious problem and he needs to know that.

A historic day...:-)

truth machine and BobC are back !!

I hope this guy doesn't become an atheist. I hope he stays in the church and spreads his pragmatic, reasoning approach to religion. If we can get the majority of religious people thinking critically, eventually the institution will become obsolete and the reasons we dislike it will disappear.

Ahh It's wonderful to read something uplifting and cheerful before trudging off to another day. Thanks for sharing this with us, PZ!

By clsazekiel (not verified) on 19 Mar 2009 #permalink

Give him a few years and he'll be an atheist like the rest of us!

Chanting: One of us! One of us! One of us!...

Briefly, re style, I think there's a lot of room both for being abrasive and conciliatory (so be nice, be nice, be diplomatic... you fuckers...) in the face of woo. What's going to work at any given time on any given person is going to vary. I've said before and I'll say again: one of the things that did have something of an impact on me a long, long time ago was a friend who said, more or less, that he seriously didn't get how anyone halfway bright could buy into religion... and he did not say it terribly nicely. And I found I had to respect his opinion--I knew the guy had a head on his shoulders. So I can say from personal experience: you can absolutely be shamed by justified derision into calling BS BS. Sometimes, an appropriate snort of unapologetic astonishment is exactly what someone needs to hear.

But on the flip side, a patient, inquisitive Socratic dialogue can iron out a lot of wrinkles in thinking, too... I think it depends on mood, where you are in your thinking, so on.

But to point some fingers (hey, I'm one of those awful confrontational types... it's what I do), for my money one the larger trouble here is actually with a lot of the types pissing and moaning about the so-called 'new atheists' and firebreathing secular zealots--and the specific trouble is they fail to grasp that reality:

Specifically, they miss that first point: there is utility in being direct, derisive, and downright rude. The fact that it isn't the only way to skin the cat, nor the only sort of discourse a believer is likely to need to hear in the sometimes long journey away from woo, I don't disagree with. But they seem to have this knee-jerk reaction to anyone ever just directly calling BS BS. Oddly, I'd say there's a certain absolutist zealotry in this, at least as much as in what they criticize. They want everyone to approach the problem the way they do. They're so confident that 'respect' they offer is so key, they don't get that they're only part of the solution themselves.

Note also that 'respect' played wrong can play directly into the hands of the tools religion has used and does use to insulate itself from the really powerful criticisms. All that hushed ceremony they wrap around everything, that sense of dignity they try to create in their services, that's essential when the line you're selling is so incoherent. It creates a relatively safe space where the woo can play without danger of someone just saying, heartily: 'Bullshit'. As they might be far more likely to do otherwise, given what's actually being said. So a splash of cold water in the face after all that warm smoke, it can absolutely do ya some good.

And beyond that, while I do absolutely think there's room for patient, polite dissection of religious silliness, too, I also think it's absolutely valid to criticize the so-called 'appeasers' when they go beyond that, and actually offer cover for the woo. When they say, hey, close enough, you're on our side, and neglect to point out they do find the thinking behind that alliance a bit muddled or contradictory or even hypocritical (as in a certain Catholic astronomer currently being discussed). You should be able to do both--say: 'I'm glad you're on our side, here, but for the record, my view of the rest of this is still pretty clear, and I do see this as a contradiction'. It's honest. And it also defuses another old trick of certain woomeisters--accepting just enough of the stuff of reality they figure they have to, and trying to insulate the rest of the woo thereby--playing the 'we're being the reasonable ones here...' card, possibly even quite deliberately, and thus shifting the Overton window in such a fashion as it makes the rest of their woo a bit more digestible, more publicly acceptable, ultimately...

And honestly: mockery and derision aren't just tools--they're also actually pretty natural and sensible responses. Religious woo is deeply sunk into our culture, and it's been so insulated by those mechanisms for so long that sometimes it's hard to notice, but it is, after all, a pretty ludicrous line, now. If you didn't sometimes find yourself saying, at least now and then, 'Man, that's just about the silliest fucking thing I've ever heard', I think I'd be worried about your grasp of proportion, really.

Oh, and about those so-called 'new atheists': there's a certain line about kings and the entrails of the last priest, generally ascribed to Diderot, but probably actually a street chant from the French revolution...

So people have been confrontational, and have been calling this stuff horseshit for a quite while, now. And it's not necessarily just because they're trying to stir up trouble...

It's because it is.

Repeated mantra of Mahayana Buddhism:
See for Yourself.
Josh is definitely going to become an atheist. Good for him, free thinking and all. Reminds me of a handsome young man I knew in years past. Me!
Cheers, pharyngulites, and to you, PZ!

Repeated mantra of Mahayana Buddhism:
See for Yourself.
Josh is definitely going to become an atheist. Good for him, free thinking and all. Reminds me of a handsome young man I knew in years past. Me!
Cheers, pharyngulites, and to you, PZ!

"I think religious people wouldn't be so bad if they just didn't accept everything that is spoon-fed to them"

If they didn't just accept everything with a nod and an "amen" they wouldn't BE religious people in the first place. The ability and willingness to question, require evidence for claims (especially extraordinary claims about sky fairies), and think rationally is the antidote to religion's "blind" faith.

Gibble Gobble we accept you we accept you one of us!

Oh, and Josh (imagining (a) that you've found this thread and (b) are inquisitive/masochistic enough to read the whole thing) -

As the choir sings, "Josh will soon be an Atheist!!!1!", it might help to be informed that there are multiple definitions of the A-word. Insisting absolutely that "there is no god at all/end of discussion" is actually a minority position - see the "Why there is almost certainly no God" chapter in Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion for more.

By Pierce R. Butler (not verified) on 19 Mar 2009 #permalink

This tread gives me a warm feeling, but I'm still left with a question only PZ can answer... because I think he may have cut off the end of the letter...

I want to know if Josh signed off at the end with a "Best Regards".

....start seeking answers by asking questions

And that's exactly how I became an atheist.

I'm all about the lovefest we seem to be having for this kid, as a lack of critical thought is the cause of the largest problems the modern world faces. However, I feel I must dutifully point out an error he has made.

He mentions, disdainfully, people who "choose which biblical rules they want to follow," but he doesn't realize that that includes him, as well. In fact, NOT being choosy when it comes to the Bible is antithetical to his revelation.

He;s going to have to pick one: open-mindedness, or biblical purity. Let's hope he chooses wisely.

Welcome aboard, Josh! This place isn't just for atheists (though that tends to be its focus), but for anyone with an open mind. Keep on doing what you're doing; you can do more good for the world (and are more praiseworthy) as a thinking Christian than as a knee-jerk atheist.

Welcome aboard, Josh! This place isn't just for atheists (though that tends to be its focus), but for anyone with an open mind. Keep on doing what you're doing; you can do more good for the world (and are more praiseworthy) as a thinking Christian than as a knee-jerk atheist.

So "nothing's sacred", you have what, psychic powers, the ability to see anyone's past and thoughts? Just wondering. Erin knew this person, you didn't. I would tend to think that having evidence of how the person thought would trump a total and complete "lack" of evidence on your part.

But, setting that issue aside, I don't think he is exactly wrong in the equivalence he gives. At *minimum* they has to be some expectation that you can "find" someone that knows how something works, and that this person "really" knows. Otherwise you become like the Kzinti in Larry Niven's books. All the proper "rituals" are followed, and everything works, because the "rituals" are all correct, but not one of them has a damn clue how and why any of the stuff on their ships "actually work". Being right isn't enough. You can be right, and still be brainwashed into it, or following things because its how you where "told" to, without having one damn clue what is going on.

The only real argument is, "Can that qualify as a religion?" You say no, but I suspect even you can think of things in the world where people are mostly "right", but follow blindly when doing them, and hold the "rightness" of their positions so strongly that they will not even listen to apposing views. What differentiates faith from knowledge is **hearing** an apposing view, examining it, and then concluding that your position is right, not based on rejection of the other argument, but based on the fact that none of the evidence supports that "alternative". You have to be willing to listen, willing to look, and your conclusion has to be based not on happenstance, but based on a failure of the alternative to persuade using any actual evidence.

Whether or not Erin's friend was or wasn't blind in his certainties doesn't change the reality that "anything" can be religion, even if there are not gods involved, so long as the means to "get there" includes **no** examination of the premises, or dismissal, without at least "some" real attempt to test the validity, of any alternatives. To simply believe, makes you no better than the people on the right, who "believe" in the face of everything that gets thrown at them too, while claiming that all arguments are defacto "false", if they appose their beliefs.

I would think this would be about as much of a given as you can get, without making it a statement of pure dogma.

Josh seems to be on step one of his deconversion process, if it follows mine. Mine went like this:

1) Realise the reality of modern Christianity is at odds with what is actually written in the Bible.

2) Re-read the Bible, except with an open mind, not a fervently pro-Christian one, thus realising how self-contradictory it is, especially when it come to the supposed nature of God.

3) Start examining other faiths, and realise this is nothing unusual.

4) Disregard any shaky evidence, and follow only concrete evidence, and conclude there is probably no god, of any kind or name.

It's a very scary process whilst you're going through it, because it feels as though you're uncovering that large sections of your life are built on a lie, but, once you get to the other side, you get a great sense of peace and accomplishment, as it feels like you've just sat the toughest and most important exam it is possible to sit, without doing any studying beforehand - and aced it.

As based in foolishness as Christianity is, I still suppose it would be good if the aggressive, violently authoritarian, fundamentalist, "because-the-bible-says" strain of it that's dominated since the 80s would be supplanted with a more thoughtful form like that shown by this guy.

That aside, it annoys me no end that so many Christians consider observations of reality to be merely beliefs, points of view, or opinions. That's kind of a tendency among Americans in general these days, though.

bobxxx: "Not necessarily. He still calls himself a Christian. The Christian religion is pure bullshit and only mentally disturbed people believe in it."

BobC, you're back! Buddy, you haven't changed a bit!

By Leigh Williams (not verified) on 19 Mar 2009 #permalink

Clinteas, I SWEAR I didn't see your post before I typed that. Even though it was right below. I just flashed on BobC, like Chuck does when he becomes the Intersect, and then had to share. Yes, sometimes I'm a schmuck . . .

By Leigh Williams (not verified) on 19 Mar 2009 #permalink

Good to see that other Christians (at least the non-reactionary type) are accepted here.

Darryl

Well, that's the first and most important step isn't it? The sudden and shocking realisation that critical thinking CAN be applied to religious beliefs, and that it changes everything...

By Suziegirl (not verified) on 20 Mar 2009 #permalink

Way behind on my feeds, so just saw this now and was floored by it.

If all (heck, most) Christians saw life this way, I could shut up and comfortable co-exist with them. This gentleman seems full of respect for his fellow human beings and their rights, and that's all I want from the people around me. It's the fact that the most vocal Christians DON'T share these traits that has gotten me so up in arms, and made me focus my atheism so much more than I should have to.

Thank you for sharing that with us, Josh (by proxy of PZ), and thank you for understanding us and our (you're included in that word) world in ways so many fail to. We could use your help in spreading that feeling.

Posted by: cm
"I call Poe on this one."

Some people think cynicism and skepticism are one in the same.
To me it is sad when one loses the ability to perceive innocence, wonder and discovery.

By mayhempix (not verified) on 20 Mar 2009 #permalink

Posted by: cm
"[at some point, like now, I will admit that my original "call" was a joke powered by the concentration gradient of all the sudden atheist-on-Christian bonhomie]"

I guess it was too much unbridled and praise and support for one cynic to handle.
;^ )

By mayhempix (not verified) on 20 Mar 2009 #permalink

grammar police #198

Too many ands...
Lose the "and" after unbridled.

By mayhempix (not verified) on 20 Mar 2009 #permalink

Like the good book says, "Seek and it shall be revealed to you."

Jesus said: He who seeks, let him not cease seeking until [he] finds; and when he finds he will be troubled, and if he is troubled, he will be amazed, and he will reign over the All.
-- Gospel of Thomas, logion 2

I hope this guy doesn't become an atheist. I hope he stays in the church and spreads his pragmatic, reasoning approach to religion. If we can get the majority of religious people thinking critically, eventually the institution will become obsolete and the reasons we dislike it will disappear.

You want him to become a bodhisattva :-)

I want to know if Josh signed off at the end with a "Best Regards".

"Kind Regards", you heresiarch!

He;s going to have to pick one: open-mindedness, or biblical purity.

There is no such thing as Biblical purity. The Bible contradicts itself all the time -- even on what, no, even on whether you can do anything to bring about your salvation!

By David Marjanović, OM (not verified) on 20 Mar 2009 #permalink

"But I'd never been in a room packed with people who whooped and cheered every time a stab was taken at the way I'd chosen to live my life. It was chilling and upsetting and I wanted to leave every second since you'd first opened your mouth."

For many atheists, every single day is filled with people willing to whoop and cheer when a stab is made at their (the atheist's) chosen way of life, from talk around the water cooler at work, to the evening news broadcast.

Not much fun, eh?