Obama is going to rouse the ire of the religious right yet further: he wisely opted not to endorse Jesus while giving a speech on economics by having a Christian symbol on the lectern covered up while he spoke. Good move, I think — let's not get secular economic decision making all muddled up with Catholicism.
Amidst all of the American flags and presidential seals, there was something missing when President Barack Obama gave an economic speech at Georgetown University this week -- Jesus.
The White House asked Georgetown to cover a monogram symbolizing Jesus' name in Gaston Hall, which Obama used for his speech, according to CNSNews.com.
The gold "IHS" monogram inscribed on a pediment in the hall was covered over by a piece of black-painted plywood, and remained covered over the next day, CNSNews.com reported.
As even us Lutherans learned, once upon a time, IHS is just the transliterated first three letters of Jesus' name — IHΣOYΣ — which always struck me as weirdly informal. They call their god "Jes"? Can we get really casual and call him "Jezzy baby", too?
Anyway, of course there is a poll, and of course the irate believers are peeved that our president didn't stand up behind good ol' Jes and talk about the bailout. Maybe some other real Americans should also make their voices heard…
28%
Yes
72%
No
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I wonder if he is deliberately trying to start a fight. I hope so.
I just love poll crashing
voted
and this is just going to spark another round of "he's not really christian" BS from the fundies
First time commenting using the new method. It seemed easy enough. And I voted "yes" of course. I can do it through Firefox again if necessary.
I love the science stuff. I love the (lack of) religion stuff. But most of all, I love correcting the opinions of the internet... one poll at a time.
In before MASSIVE amounts of revisionist history concerning America being founded as a Christian nation...
My comment there should they choose to publish it.
I thought IHS stood for "Iesum Hominum Salvatore". At least that's what I learned from when I was researching about instruments made by Guarneri family of luthiers, who would imprint an IHS on the instrument identification label of each instrument they made. Oh well, religious mysticism will always remain laughably clouded by its own kitschy folk tales.
Anyway, good move on the part of Obama. Jesus has been known not to do the shit humanity has asked him to for the past 2,000 years, so I think it's a great idea to remove him from our future important meetings.
I thought it was traditional to put the presidential seal on a podium when the president speaks.
"Our Catholic faith is integral to our identity as an institution of higher education."
"Our... faith" and "higher education" in the same sentence always strike me as an oxymoron
They did put the presidential seal up.
Voted for Yes, er, Support, er no religious undertones to economic speeches.
Seconding 'Tis Himself at #8 - I thought that the Presidential office was all about "Have seal, will travel."
No kings,
Robert
I may be wrong, but I thought IHS stood for In Hoc Signo as in In Hoc Signo Vinces (In This Sign you will conquer, my Latin may be rusty) which was in Constantine's supposed vision of the cross that persuaded him to make Christianinanity a state religion. Anyone else heard this one?
Jeezy Creezy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ope-1Zb5t-k
(reference @ 4:45)
P.S. I'm apparently the YouTube Queen today!
- Principia Discordia
So with all the outrage over the covered symbol, did anyone catch what Obama actually said?
Quick! Somebody tell Andy Schlafly so he can update the "likely a Muslim" section of Conservapedia's smear job. . . er, article on Obama.
I recall being told by the nuns that IHS stood for "I Have Sinned" or "I Have Suffered". I remember being very confused by this because jesus was free from sin...
You'd think I'd have picked up on the fact that religion is a bunch of made-up stuff at a much younger age than I did.
Just turned 30%; we have a way to go to convince the retards that they can't rely on their god to aid them with the cover up.
Now at 70% No, 30% Yes. It's not working fast enough!! :(
The Greek "H" transliterates to "E" in English. The Greek equivalent of the English "H" wasn't a letter at all--just a "rough breathing" diacritical mark.
*sigh* I love the power of the Internet to move people in large numbers....you wield it well, PZ.
I did a little Googling. Apparently, it can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean. Go figure.
There's a minor and amusing fuss in Britain at the moment after certain Xtians complained that a character in the TV soap 'Coronation Street' apparently made anti-Christian remarks on an episode on Easter Day. Ken Barlow allegedly referred to faith as 'superstition' and God as a 'supernatural being' (I thought that last was fairly uncontroversial). So it seems that the fundies don't even like FICTIONAL characters rejecting their god-cult. (Do they understand that TV soaps are fiction?)
@ R.C. #17:
Yeah the priests and nuns told me "I have suffered" too.
I remember being a bit sceptical at the time.
From the linked article:
"The White House wanted a simple backdrop of flags and pipe and drape for the speech, consistent with what they've done for other policy speeches," she a university representative wrote. "Frankly, the pipe and drape wasn't high enough by itself to fully cover the IHS and cross above the GU seal and it seemed most respectful to have them covered so as not to be seen out of context."
And,
Rev. Thomas Reese...didn't think "this is motivated by theology, but by communications strategy."
So it appears that Obama wasn't really making any kind of statement, other than, perhaps, he isn't going to go out of his way to pander to sectarian interests.
Have you read the batshit crazy comments from the religious nutbags? Eek!
I absolutely believe in the separation of church and state, but it immediately struck me as being equally petty to Ashcroft's fear of the breasteses. [spelling intentional]
While I don't want religious symbolism on my money, and incidental historical religious artifact doesn't offend me. As George Carlin ever so cleverly put it, "I prefer to leave symbols to the symbol-minded."
Long ago, my lapsed-Catholic mother also told me it stood for "I have suffered". Which just goes to show how little the average Christian actually knows about their own religion, and how silly they get in trying to cover up that ignorance.
*should read "an incidental historical..."
#23: Ken Barlow is still in Corrie? For reals?
If I was a Christian I would support covering it up. I'm pretty sure Jesus wouldn't want to mix up economics and religion.
"‘In God We Trust’. It’s right there where Jesus would have wanted it — on our money." - Colbert
The comments page is filled with "ZOMG! He's a Muslim (or muslin)!!11!!" "He's not a Christian!!" and similar screeds.
And of course, the 'Birthers' have shown up as well.
As of now there are almost 1600 comments - most of them negative - The story has been up since this morning.
Oh poo bits... I can't see the poll... did it finish or is it because I've been out having a few bevvies with chums tonight?
What was the final result? I miss a good poll crashing :-(
Ho hum.
More censorship!
This is practically a totalitarian dictatorship by now, what with science being taught in science class, and gov't not pledging allegiance to Geez Louise.
Otoh, I think we should try out their "teach the weaknesses" demand re Xianity. Now that could be fun.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
The comments are nauseating. "OMG hees a DIRTY COMMIE MEXICAN MUSLIMS fer cuverin up my baby JEBus LOL!!!11!!"
My sister is moving to the States this summer. I fear for her.
Okay, well it appears that it was unintentional on Obama's part, so I can't say it's petty. I do have a real problem with people covering up inconvenient/objectionable/somehow significant things during a press release. Aw, fuck look at what I just said. *Shakes head*
Not that it's on the same level: Just remember, when Colin Powell gave his justifications for moving on Iraq at the UN, the press interviewed him in front of Picasso's Guernica. Don't remember that? Yeah, it got covered up.
Matt Heath #30. Allegedly - I don't watch it!
Completely OT, but Reverend BDC, if you haven't got one of these yet, you must--
http://www.noisebot.com/push_button_receive_bacon_t-shirt.htm
PZ, PZ, PZ... *shakes head* The tranliterated first three Latin letters of Jesus' transliterated (into Greek) name! *sheesh*
It's also a "nomina sacra" in the Greek in order to save writing paper. kwim? :-) rofl
-Rusty
I'm all for separation of church and state, but I must be missing something... why would they cover up a religious symbol? I mean, he is speaking at a private Jesuit university. I think my issue would be with his choice of venue rather than with the symbols he might be standing near.
There's also the Latin "In hoc signo vinces" (the sign was the chi rho).
I suppose Obama might be worried that somebody could take him for Jesus and expect miracles?
33%/67% as of 1530 PDT. Either it's a very slow updating poll, or there is a huge vote base already. There are 1700+ comments on this story and most seem to be from godwarriors. That might indicate why the poll is so lop-sided and hard to shift.
IHS was always "in hoc signo" for me, but then, my religion teacher was not very good at greek (he also taught latin by coincidence)
I just tried to leave a comment on the NBC Washington article and, guess what? Deleted. With lightning speed.
I guess if you're not calling him a fascist for "hating" Jebus, then you're not welcome. Guess I'm not in the winner's circle.
Completely OT, but reading this comment made we wonder if it would be cool if scienceblogs could run a "Stats Awareness Month/Carnival" where bloggers could write entry level articles on statistics for the uninitiated.
Nonsense issue. Imho, religious people should respect Obama FOR covering up the initials, not be 'agin him for it. Even a super religious President should understand that they are elected to an office that does not and should not claim any special religious authority, and as such should not basically have a disclaimer over their heads saying "Jesus endorses this!"
The NRO Cornerites were making fun of the "coverup" but the reality is that if Obama had gone through with his speech with the initials intact and there floating over his head, you can bet your life that they would be making fun of him for thinking himself to be the Second Coming.
Who is this Jesus and what is his economic policy? If he has anything to contribute, let him speak!
Since when does the President have to speak in front of cult symbols? What kind of outrage is this? With so much in question now days, the right just can't seem to get its head on straight and control the actual issues people care about.
Http://www.TheNewAtheist.com
We need to sic \b\ after that poll lol
It looks like even religious people can see that if the government stays out of religion it's better for everybody...the unbelievers yeah but also the people of other faiths...(understatement obviosly!)
So it seems that the fundies don't even like FICTIONAL characters rejecting their god-cult. (Do they understand that TV soaps are fiction?)
nope.
some might recall the whole "Murphy Brown single parent" bruhaha that Dan Quayle went off on while GW senior was pres.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,975627,00.html
I think Americans lost the ability to tell TV from Reality sometime during the airing of "Happy Days".
Who is this Jesus and what is his economic policy? If he has anything to contribute, let him speak!
naww. Jesus always just has a sandbox spaz every time the issue of money comes up.
they deleted my comment also - I scrolled through the comments and found comments before and after but mine was deleted superfast - they only allow religiofanatic comments how stupid
they only allow religiofanatic comments how stupid
sounds worthy of testing...
"I recall being told by the nuns that IHS stood for "I Have Sinned" or "I Have Suffered". I remember being very confused by this because jesus was free from sin..."
Or since they are nuns... I Have Saddlebacked
... hmm, AFAICT, they let all comments through, it just takes a while for them to post.
I put up 3 comments, 2 as Ichthyic, one as "Jeswarrior" (which left a very bad taste in my mouth).
all seem to be there.
Those commenters are just nuts. How can Obama be ALL the bad things they say he is, why do they all assume the university was wrong, and why are they all such cheerless, hateful bastards?
Oh, yeah. They are religious.
"they only allow religiofanatic comments how stupid"
really? I'll test that.
*posts relatively non-inflammatory comment*
....
*deleted*
Yeah you're right. And the flat out racist ones are still there. That's disgusting.
Most people around here, it seems, think "ΙΧΘΥΣ" is "Jesus" in Greek. (After all, it's in the fish, like "Darwin", right? So it has to be his name, right?) I don't speak Greek, but even I know enough about the Greek alphabet to puzzle that one out. Knowing the pronunciation of Χ, Θ, and Σ, and a few basic word stems, was enough.
(PS: It means "fish". I kid you not.)
Way to go Mr. President. Thanks for respecting our constitution.
#55 "I Have Saddlebacked." That's funny.
Watch out for Santorum though!
It was missing the "I don't care" option. Cover the Christian symbols or don't, it changes little. What I don't understand is the outrage that many religious people are expressing over this.
Wait.. now my comment's back.
That was weird.
Was he invited there or did he choose there.
This poll needs some work. Its only at 27% for me.
ZK #33;
you have to click on the text before you get to the poll.
I second Bobxxxx's comment. It's so nice to have a real leader of our country!
Whoa!
What the hell sort of collision of insanity is this comment?
But you no longer claim Lutheranism, right?
The wackos aren't angry because he covered up the sign, they're angry because he's the president. If he'd left the sign uncovered, they'd be screeching about how he thinks he's the messiah. Nothing Obama can do will stop them from thinking he's the antichrist.
With Obama's approval rating holding steady around 60% it shows how irrelevant the wingnuts really are, despite the fact that they make lots of noise about meaningless BS like this, at least when they can find time between their teabagging parties.
Interestingly, Jesus' name in Aramaic (Jeshua) is a shortening of the Hebrew Jehoshua, so IHS might actually be an abbreviation that respects the Semitic practice of not indicating the vowels: JeHoShua
I tried to post this over there as a comment, not sure if it's going through all the JavaScript that I tried to unblock (I've been to Java ... they didn't write in JavaScript).
====
Such hatred here. How can Obama be an atheist, a Muslim, a Hitler and Reverend Wright's puppy all at once?
He is the duly elected president of these United States--if you don't like that, leave. He was giving a speech as the President, which means that he cannot endorse any particular religion. He was on TV, which means he needed a plain, dark background. The University made a decision--if you don't like it, don't go there.
If Obama had stood up in front of a Jesus symbol, religious fanatics of all sorts would have been up in arms--"He thinks he's God" "He loves that religion" "He hates that religion"--nothing makes such people happy, they just want to be hateful and feel persecuted.
Arrogance? President Obama has arrogance? You'd better hope he does. The man is president of the USA. And he is very, very smart. If he is arrogant, he has the right. But he also has the smarts to know his limits.
Bowing to the Saudi King was wrong, but it wasn't arrogant, now was it? George W Bush used to walk around holding hands with Saudis, looking at flowers. Bowing, Japanese style, at least kept Obama from having to touch the man. Speaking of Bush and Saudis, almost all of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis, and Bush made sure to get the Bin Laden family a special trip home that awful day, because they are his friends.
The people who are upset by this story are not acting like Christians at all--no love, no understanding, no wisdom, no forgiveness--but they are being very, very religious. Jesus would be ashamed of you. He said, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" and Obama knows that better than most Christians. The speech was Caesar's, so to speak, and Jesus Himself would have stood quiet during it, and covered His holy head rather than disrupt it.
If you don't like me saying what Jesus would do, stop saying it yourself. Curb your own arrogance, let go of your hate and your anger, let the love of God fill your soul, and let God speak for Himself.
Peace be with you.
No, you leave. It was obnoxious and nonsensical when the Bushites said it, and that hasn't changed.
IHS... for those not in the know, means "I Have Syphilis" and Barack was doing what any other sensible person would do - keeping it a secret!
Oh, goody. We haven't had enough of the "Obama is an evil Jesus-hating furrin muslin!" silliness lately. Maybe their heads will explode if they keep it up.
things aren't going well... gonna need some help on this poll
39% yes
61% no
that was the point. the fish thing was a secret christian symbol/pun on the name Jesus. Early Christians seem to have been smarter and have had a better sense of humor than their modern brethren.
Is the poll still there ?
I went to vote and dont see it ...
Why?
I just call him "J" for short sometimes. Or, "Mr. McJeeberJeebers" sometimes too.
When in Rome... drape Caesar in an American flag and graffiti "AMERICA RULEZ" onto the Colosseum! Also be sure to remind the Vatican that God owes them a favour...
Wow, there's a google hit for "Mr. McJeeberJeebers" already. Man, those google people are really on the ball!
I don't see the poll anywhere, either. :(
Benjamin Geiger @ 59:
Referencing our good friend Wikipedia:
The use of the Ichthys symbol by early Christians appears to date from the end of the 1st century AD. Ichthus (ΙΧΘΥΣ, Greek for fish) can be read as an acrostic, a word formed from the first letters of several words. It compiles to "Jesus Christ, God's son, savior," in ancient Greek "Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ", Iēsous Khristos Theou Huios, Sōtēr.
Iota (i) is the first letter of Iēsous (Ἰησοῦς), Greek for Jesus.
Chi (kh) is the first letter of Khristos (Χριστóς), Greek for "Christ" or "anointed".
Theta (th) is the first letter of Theou (Θεοῦ), that means "God's", genitive case of Θεóς, Theos, "God".
Upsilon (u) is the first letter of huios (Υἱός), Greek for Son.
Sigma (s) is the first letter of sōtēr (Σωτήρ), Greek for Savior.
I gather that it was used somewhat in the capacity of a Secret Sign and Password, to ID early Christian worshippers and places of worship, back when they were actually a Persecuted Minority.
________
OT, I'm apparently being logged out repeatedly, against my will. Is it just me? Has my deodorant failed?
Yes. It appears the poll has been removed. You know how it goes, the government can dissolve the people if it wishes to elect another.
Dangit! Italics fail; that Wiki-quote should run to just after "Savior".
Just posted the following at whitehouse.gov. I encourage you to do similarly throughout his presidency.
Mr President,
As a member of the armed forces I have had to suffer in silence while our nation openly promoted the use of torture and criminal activity, established a national religion, denied Americans their basic right of equal representation, and actively increased the spread of HIV/AIDS in impoverished nations. While I have found many atheists in the foxholes, we have floundered in the oppressive, anti-reason environment that the previous eight years of presidency have provided us. I commend you on discarding the empty notion of faith in your presidency, and look forward to following your reason-based directives in the future.
So far, you have presented a reasoned approach to world events, to include refusing to have any religion attached to your public appearances. I hope that you will find the strength to abandon religious pretense in all state ceremonies, perhaps to the point of denouncing its inclusion. (Ending those meetings with "prominent" clergy would be a fantastic first step.) Such action may cost you a second term , but will elevate you to the level of hero in the view of your logically-guided countrymen. I can only hope that the admiration that I and my fellow countrymen extend to you when we thank you for bringing dignity and reason to the most powerful office in land will suffice.
Hold firmly to your ideals that the way forward, the solution, the best approach, lies in the proper application of science and education. Believe in the education of our populace and the abandonment of superstition. Challenge our youth, middle age, and elderly to never stop learning. Promote the idea that education has never led to the downfall of a society.
Most of all, accept that the "elite" of our country are the ones whom we need to embrace closest. Understand that they devote their lives to the study of narrow topics so that they might enhance the lives of all peoples. To disregard or discard or, worst yet, belittle, their knowledge and devotion, is to turn your back on the betterment of our society. Embrace the label of "elitest" and give us all a fighting chance.
cicelly, on a long thread, it takes a while for all the parts of the page to be downloaded; the javascript that changes the comment box is the last bit.
If you notice your browser icon still spinning, it's probably still downloading the page.
Nope, it apparently outright logged me out. I typed in my comment, hit "Post", and it told me that I must be logged in to comment, even though I already was logged in.
Technology hates me.
Ahhh, Georgetown University along with William and Mary are both early censors of knowledge here in the US. They continue to "put the blinders on" students and offer, IMHO, limited access to the knowledge needed to continue our natural evolutionary processes. Score one for Obama and hurray for unfettered access to knowledge.
BTW, Boran #86...nice letter! --copy, click, paste--
cicely: I was aware, but thanks for posting that anyway. :-) Your average non-Grecophone Christian probably wouldn't know where to look to find that information.
(... just checked... turns out, typing "ixoye" into Google gives suitable information. Curse my meat body, I wasn't impatient enough!)
And yeah, it made sense to have a sort of thieves' cant when "oppression" meant death, not just not having the entire world cater to your whim...
(Gah. That last comment sounded sarcastic, which was not my intent, hence the smiley.)
Boran @ 86:
That was a great letter! But what I really want to do is thank you for mentioning the URL. My dad has been hounding me to find contact info for Obama and I was just going to look after I read this thread. So that was amazing timing!
Thanks!
recovering catholic:
No, it's Jesus being honest:
"I Hibernated Saturday."
Nope, it apparently outright logged me out. I typed in my comment, hit "Post", and it told me that I must be logged in to comment, even though I already was logged in.
I have noted that complaint about typekey registration several times over the last couple of years.
not sure what causes it, but I don't think it's a fluke.
try deleting your cookie files and re-logging in.
O.T. but look who's one of 50 most brilliant atheists of all time (#45).
Ichthyic @#51
NO!!! DON'T TELL ME!!!FONZIE ISN'T REAL?!?!?!?
One of the comments points out that his name is Barack Hussein Obama, obviously evidence that he is a Muslim. Probably said by someone who is stupid and proud of it. I suspect we will get to hear a lot about how he is not a Christian and so on. I certainly hope he's not, but it really doesn't matter. Even if he is, he's handling it well.
Re: IHS. I've always thought this was a transliteration/contraction, from Greek to Latin, as described below (from Catholic Encyclopedia).
"A monogram of the name of Jesus Christ. From the third century the names of our Saviour are sometimes shortened, particularly in Christian inscriptions (IH and XP, for Jesus and Christus). In the next century the "sigla" (chi-rho) occurs not only as an abbreviation but also as a symbol. From the beginning, however, in Christian inscriptions the nomina sacra, or names of Jesus Christ, were shortened by contraction, thus IC and XC or IHS and XPS for Iesous Christos. These Greek monograms continued to be used in Latin during the Middle Ages. Eventually the right meaning was lost, and erroneous interpretation of IHS led to the faulty orthography "Jhesus". In Latin the learned abbreviation IHC rarely occurs after the Carlovingian era. The monogram became more popular after the twelfth century when St. Bernard insisted much on devotion to the Holy Name of Jesus, and the fourteenth, when the founder of the Jesuati, Blessed John Colombini (d. 1367), usually wore it on his breast. Towards the close of the Middle Ages IHS became a symbol, quite like the chi-rho in the Constantinian period. Sometimes above the H appears a cross and underneath three nails, while the whole figure is surrounded by rays. IHS became the accepted iconographical characteristic of St. Vincent Ferrer (d. 1419) and of St. Bernardine of Siena (d. 1444). The latter holy missionary, at the end of his sermons, was wont to exhibit this monogram devoutly to his audience, for which some blamed him; he was even called before Martin V. St. Ignatius of Loyola adopted the monogram in his seal as general of the Society of Jesus (1541), and thus it became the emblem of his institute. IHS was sometimes wrongly understood as "Jesus Hominum (or Hierosolymae) Salvator", i.e. Jesus, the Saviour of men (or of Jerusalem=Hierosolyma)."
Source: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07649a.htm
One of the most interesting courses that I took in college was in church history. Then again I say the same thing about the planetary geology or symbolic logic courses that rounded out my liberal arts education in route to a biology major.
Charlie @ 96 - they must have gotten Douglas Adams wrong... they list him at 43. They should have found a way to make it 42.
And who's that guy at 45?
;-)
jbs
Aaaarrrrggghhhh!
I made the mistake of looking at the comments on that article and I feel ill. There is a huge number of fundies posting all kinds of idiotic garbage. Made me think I was on CNN political ticker or Faux News website. Meh.
I tried responding once or twice, but I think it was pointless. I feel dirty, how many showers does it take to wash of fundie bullshit?
DJ, yeah, and the scurillous hypocrites at NBC are censoring comments that criticise Christians but they let Christians call President Obama anything and everything. Foxtrot Uncle Charlie Kilo NBC!
You can find the poll here, more or less: http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Question-of-the-Day.html .
Click on the question to make the choices appear.
I suggest copying the URL and pasting it into a new window to avert backtrackers who might wonder where all those people came from.
It's still 40% yes, 60% no.
Did I just hear my name? No?
I've lost the poll from the main article page - oh wait, someones just posted a link... cool.
In the meantime I've been baiting the Fundies. I have to admit to a certain amount of malicious glee in it - sorry...
Wow - the hate there is palpable! Reckon the Secret Service guys will be really earning their money and overtime over the next few years!
Huh, it looks like my comment posted under that poll after all. I tried to make it calm enough to not get it censored out, but it looks like I annoyed a few people here.
I put in a line saying, "He is the duly elected president of these United States--if you don't like that, leave." Yes, it's rude nonsense, but it's their type of rude nonsense, and their words. Let them feel it.
I said that it was wrong for Obama to bow to the Saudi king partly because they were all saying it was wrong, and partly because I feel that it *was* wrong. President Obama was there as the personification of the United States of America, and America does not bow to anyone. An American citizen should not bow to the Queen of England, for instance. Obama and the Emperor of Japan can bow to each other, as is Japanese custom, but not if the old boy does not bow back as an equal. Bowing, in Saudi Arabia, is submissive, I think.
But really, I don't care that Obama bowed--if he really did do it. It was his choice, his move, his expertise, and he is the president. I'm just a hillbilly, with dim memories of saluting rules from basic training, and a copy of Miss Manners.
Current percentages:
42% Yes
58% No
Something we should keep in mind here.
If Obama had given a speech at a lectern with a cross on the front of it, the same people who are criticizing him for hiding the cross would have criticized him for preaching with it in front of him.
These people simply exist to find reasons to hate Obama. The fact that, bizarrely, they focus on his usage of a teleprompter serves as a good example. Anybody who has watched Obama and Bush both speak can tell that Obama is the one of the two who has a far greater command of the material he is talking about. And for eight years we had to watch Bush stumble and bumble even when he was reading from a teleprompter. And yet the wingnut contingent now cricizes Obama and implies that he's the stupid one.
At some point the Rovian tactic of attacking the opponent's strength simply becomes idiotic.
Marcus asks:
His economic plan would send the Rethugs through the roof if they ever bothered to contemplate it, which apparently they don't do although they claim to read his story on a daily basis.
The man was a complete socialist, always talking about the poor and dissing the rich, giving away free health care, and mingling with unsavory elements of the population.
Freakin' revolutionary, he was, and against "storing up treasure on earth". How can we run a proper cutthroat capitalist economy with that kind of nonsense floating around?
at 8:49 CET, 44%...
lol, just got an image in my head of Jesus turning up on Wall Street to drive out the money lenders.
There's a statue of a bull on Wall Street, probably made of what the Bible would call "brazen". A few weeks ago, a big bunch of capitalistic Christians held a prayer meeting around it.
Since the original poll is gone, here's another one on the subject to crash:
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Question-of-the-Day.html
Oops, I missed that it was actually the same one. Sorry.
Re Cicely @ http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/04/no_shout_out_for_jes_at_that… and others;
I always thought Icthyic was a bit fishy ;¬)
I couldn't see the poll either. Maybe they removed it to hide their shame, or to hide that it was pharyngulated.
I always thought Icthyic was a bit fishy ;¬)
yup. you nailed it. In fact, the discussion here over the meaning of IHS is directly related to how I came up with that moniker.
long story short, I accuse xians of stealing yet another bit of pagan symbolism for co-option into their freakish cult.
but then, that's the main thing I really hate about xians, they're so bloody unimaginative.
long story short, I accuse xians of stealing yet another bit of pagan symbolism for co-option into their freakish cult.
I swear, you have to keep things nailed down around these people. They'll steal anything from anybody: Mithras's birthday, the resurrection story from countless myths (but likely the Isis/Osiris legend), and Aphrodite's dove, Every time I see a dove on a holy roller's car, I want to scream "Thief!" at them.
It's possible, too, that they didn't even come up with evangelism, but stole that from the Buddhists, from what is known of their history, and of how they were well established in Greece by the 3rd century BCE.
Current voting: Yes 49% delusional 51%
Original link defunct. Check comments above for a working link.
And yet, it's not.
All right, with my vote common sense is up to 51%
When I went to the poll a few minutes ago, the results stood at
Yes: 52%
No: 48%
Remind you of last November?
I found the poll as per #103:
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Question-of-the-Day.html
I don't know where the poll is on the site ( it was not directly at the site linked ), but I would vote No. Because, frankly, I think that covering random preexisting religious symbols is ridiculous overkill
As George Carlin once said "I prefer to leave symbols for the symbol-minded".
well i was going to tell you where to find it... but i changed my mind after reading your whole comment :P
(you gotta click on the orange box on the left side)
(you gotta click on the orange box on the left side)
there is no orange box on the left
"Yes" is now at 53%.
I like what Luke Wilson's character called Jesus in Meet the Parents: J.C.
Before link bouncing I was wondering why the hell Obama would be speaking at a church anyways. OH! A University. Hm. Serves them right.
Boran @86:
Very nicely put, thanks. Thank you for your service.
Yes (agree with covering the symbol): 55%
No: 45%
It took the Christian Defenestration Coalition until this morning to emit a sputter "out loud":
At least they come up with one constructive suggestion.
Adrienne@127 - yeah - I kind of liked that too. For some reason....
JC
Now 56% agree with the media decision for "a plain background of American flags," 44% disagree.
First time I've ever heard your pretty riot of stars and stripes called "plain."
All the comments are from Christians. I just posted one, but I won't be surprised if--like the poll--it disappears.
They are censoring other people while decrying censorship. Heheh.
Who are Obama's advance team--Larry.Curly and Moe????? As a free lance TV director, I have a suggestion for avoiding this kind of silly brouhaha in the future. If there is an unacceptable background behind the podium--Are you ready?--MOVE THE PODIUM!
Cappy @12: We were always told it was "In Hoc Signo" at our Anglican-run high school. Wasn't even aware of the other alternatives until now.
you may be partly right, if for the wrong reason.
It's probably better classified under "extreme compartmentalization".
They're on to the next poll now. I don't know if the final results are available anywhere -- I don't see them. I know they don't announce the results on their newscasts anymore, at least not the ones I watch; only the questions.
@Daniel Valentine:
'I thought IHS stood for "Iesum Hominum Salvatore"'
According to the Jesuit historians, PZ's version is correct - that's Jez, baby.
How fortunate that the Jesuits did not use a semitic script instead - that would reduce 'iesvs' simply to 'ss' and the seal of the Society of Jesus might have resembled a Nazi lapel pin. Then again if they *did* use a semitic script, and the Hebrew script in particular, that would look more like "WW" instead and I'd be saying "Sascha" rather than "Jesus".
@Daniel Valentine:
'I thought IHS stood for "Iesum Hominum Salvatore"'
According to the Jesuit historians, PZ's version is correct - that's Jez, baby.
How fortunate that the Jesuits did not use a semitic script instead - that would reduce 'iesvs' simply to 'ss' and the seal of the Society of Jesus might have resembled a Nazi lapel pin. Then again if they *did* use a semitic script, and the Hebrew script in particular, that would look more like "WW" instead and I'd be saying "Sascha" rather than "Jesus" (because my Hebrew sucks and I never know what vowels should be inserted and where).
Sorry for the double post folks ... damned unreliable technology ...
Like several others commenting here, I am unable to access the poll, and disappointed I can't do my bit for "our" community. Does anyone know why, or at least have any reasonable ideas?