Someone is putting out feelers to see about building yet another creation museum in Peoria, IL. They're looking for information about how much support they'd get, so they've made a creationist survey, asking if people would be willing to contribute to it. I don't quite get the point of a survey for that; I presume they would only send the link to a friendly audience to get an appearance of broad support.
Of course, now the link has fallen into my hands, heh heh heh. And I've passed it on to you. I wonder what the final statistics on their survey will look like?
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I took the survey then, in the comments, I told them we don't need another monument to ignorance.
Cheers & Happy Monkey,
Ray
Maybe they're just interested in the absolute number of supporters - we'd have to lie to skew that statistic, and doing so might result in more creation museums than we'd like...
Well my (as well as others from rational viewpoints)survey will probably be tossed out, but I did my part.
We don't need monuments to ignorance anywhere at any time.
Wow, I really enjoyed doing this survey, though I felt as though I needed a shower afterwards.
In the comments section I mention the vast evidence for evolution. Said creationism was unsupported by any evidence. And then I assume they'll ignore me.
What I don't understand is that Peoria is only 320 miles or so from the other Museum of Lies (err Creation Museum). Are there that many creobots to support two of them so close?
Some zip codes, in case you're interested (for Peoria).
61601-61607
61612-61615
61625
61628-61630
Should be enough to give a variety.
This may prove useful before you answer: http://zipcodes.addresses.com/zip_codes_by_city/27351.html
I live in Illinois, not that far from Peoria, and I am so disappointed that this is even being considered here. I filled out the survey answering no to the questions that counted and added the comment that this is a bad idea. No other explanation is really necessary because they damn will know why its a bad idea, even if they won't admit it.
Sorry, should be well not will.
I commented, but will have to go back to mention goats that have burst into flames.
q: How many christians does it take to change a lightbulb?
a: Just one, but soon they're all doing it.
Did the survey; they'll probably never read it anyway.
I told them in the comments section to be more literal with the Bible. I complained that the "museum" in KY had kids pre-fall with clothes on and that it taught that everything before the fall would not die, even though the Bible says that Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden so they couldn't eat from the Tree of Life.
I'd love to see the two craptastic "museums" end up contradicting each other. Let the Creationist War begin!
My comments:
"The creation museums I've been to (and heard about) have been dishonest, misleading, and lacked scientific content. Their creators apparently lack even a basic understanding of the science they attempt to present. They work contrary to the principles of education, and do our children a disservice."
Filled it out. Put my actual zip code, and answered all "No"s. Left this comment,
If this so called museum is anything like the sack of lies in Ohio, then it will be a complete waste of time, money, and resources. The citizens of Peoria will be worse off for its existence. If your claim is that there is any scientific evidence for a literal, word for word interpretation of the Bible, then you are lying. This is immoral in any society I can think of. Particularly considering you're likely to get rich with your lies.
-Daniel Sutton
Would have been longer, but I hit the character limit.
I approve of this message PZ. This creationist museum stands in direct opposition to the Holy Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and makes a mockery of His wisdom.
Weird trivia: Kent Hovind and Sam Kinison graduated from the same Peoria-area high school in the same year (East Peoria '71). And neither will be available for their fortieth reunion.
If you finish the survey, you will be taken to an advertising page for the survey company. One of the services they provide is "Skip Logic". It's not a service tailored to creationists, but you can't blame a guy for being confused...
That was fun. Told them to cut the crap, get a life, stop wasting people's time, wake up and smell the coffee, etc.
Here's the comment I left:
"Why don't you work to feed the poor, provide health care for the unemployed or set up a science scholarship program for disadvantaged youth instead? All would be be more productive, charitable or enlightening. Jeebus X, think about it for more than a second and you should come to your senses."
I dare say tho', that gently stroking a frickin' brick would probably elicit more positive response.
I told them that their ludicrous nonsense was detracting from the true message of Christ's sacrifice, death and resurrection, and our redemption. Perhaps they'll listen to that, but I somehow doubt it.
I also lied about where I heard about their website. I figure they'll discount any results coming from PZ'z fanbase.
I definitely feel the need to shower after lying to liars.
That's the area I grew up in. Embarrassing.
Anyway, a few zip codes for small towns in the area-
61401
61430
61434
61462
Be aware there's a 500 character(? probably byte) limit to your comments.
Mine (zip code 61666)…
Sighs… And of course, I typoed. That should have been “There's a stunning total lack of evidence … for all of the many gods and goddesses.”
here is the comment i left on the survey:
Creationism and Science do not mix. They are like water and oil. Science has evidence, creation has an imaginary friend in the sky. There are no dinosaurs in the bible because they came millions of years before it was written. Lying to the public through a museum, doesn't make it real. We need to stop the indoctrination of children with an imaginary God. It is harmful to mental health and promotes war and guilt. Please buy the new book by CJ Werleman, "God Hates You. Hate Him Back".
I'm torn. As much as I despise monuments of incredulity, at the same time I doubt it will be as extravagant or noteworthy as the one in Kentucky. i think it will turn out to be a trailer-turned-museum just like nearly every other creationism "museum" in this country.
I said in the comments that it is about time someone gave proper entertainment to the bored college-student aged atheists in this area. I wouldn't mind road tripping for some high-quality lulz and pure mockery.
My comment:
"Furthering science education would be a far superior use of the money involved. The United States became "the greatest country on Earth" and did such amazing things as putting people on the moon by encouraging vital interest in and providing material support to the sciences. That such has fallen by the wayside is a shame and a source of many ills to this country. Let God be enshrined in His actual shrines, and let faith stand true to itself instead of borrowing science's trappings."
Frankly, that last bit there was simply said in hopes that they'd actually take such advice, thereby further rendering faith irrelevant because they stop trying to interfere so bloody much. Not that it'll happen, but hey.
And YMMV on "the greatest country on Earth," but that's just me speaking in their language, and adding the "(or so it's said)" or similar comment would've eaten up too much of the letter limit for the rest.
A creation museum next to a university? I don't think so ... If it's built I hope the university students hang around and educate the folks who wander by.
I was thinking, as I filled in all no's, that this might be counterproductive. They might be able to lie by telling the truth as they raise funds. I'm thinking one of their fundraiser folks telling prospective donors. We put up a web survey to see if there was any interest in the project, and in two days we got (insert large number) responses. This museum is going to be a big hit!
7. Are you affiliated with any groups or organizations that would be interested in visiting such a museum?
Since I know how enthusiastic you bunch are with that last visit, I should answer 'yes' here. Or maybe I shouldn't. Or: "Only if there's a rideable dinosaur in it."
I commented to the effect of:
If you are claiming this is a science museum, don't do it.
However if you are starting up a museum to showcase creationist literature and art...go ahead, I guess.
So long as it isn't claiming to be truth, it is a neat myth. And has inspired some fancy art.
I smell Poe here. What's with that email address - seriously klang3 at gmail?
Evn this Brit knows that Peoria has a certain reputation as a stereotypical US town.
Didn't take the bait.
Peoria is my hometown so you can bet your ass I took their little survey and I used my former zip code to take it too. I didn't add any comments to the section after the survey, but I really don't think they're looking at that anyway. For the record, Peoria and East Peoria are two entirely different cities. They are in seperate counties as well. There is a major difference between the two of them, so please don't lump us in with Hovind! He did not go to any of the 5 Peoria area high schools. Peoria is known for Richard Pryor, not that nutbag.
Isn't this town where Ingersoll lived? How sad!
Yes, there's a statue at the bottom of Glen Oak Park of Ingersoll that I used to go past often when I lived there. I grew up 3 blocks away from that park!
Seems the email is not as bogus as someone thought. The contact number also returns to Keith Lang's web page at icc.edu if anyone cares to search for it.
The organizer's FaceBook profile describes him in this way:
I did the survey and commented negatively about the idea of a creation museum. I stated a museum showcasing the self evident truth that the earth is flat, or one presenting evidence that objects fall to the ground when unsupported because they are pushed down by invisible pixies, would be far more interesting.
More than sad if that is the case. Have they set the time to go backwards, since they definitely are.
Robert Green Ingersoll was a beacon of integrity and rationality, and those museums are bottomless pits of stupidity and wilful ignorance.
US regress at its worst?
Have you ever been to Peoria? When I was a kid we spent a few weeks every summer visiting my mother's home town, Canton, IL, just a few miles west of Peoria. We made a trip to Peoria at least once each summer to visit relatives--I never did know how they were related to us. I was bored with Peoria by the time I was six.
I went to college in Galesburg, IL--Knox College. A few years ago I was talking with two friends who went to Bradley in Peoria. They went on and on about how awful Peoria was. After listening to this for ten minutes I just said, "When I was at Knox we went to Peoria for excitement."
Having said all that, I don't believe any town anywhere deserves a creation museum.
Skeptics Among Us: Atheists Visit The Creation Museum - Part 1 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdFVAUCM6X4
I gave them some heat with my survey response. There is no necessity in such ignorance. That is what the church is for.
Well, I did own up to knowing about the museum in KY, but answered no to the remainder of the questions. Left an appropriate if not entirely original snarky comment:
"A museum showcasing *real science* would be more beneficial to the children in the area. Hint: the main problem with creationists is that they think The Flintstones is a documentary."
So long, and thanx for all the zip codes.
The Creation Museum Teaches Super Evolution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mPPnN1c0jk
If you need a few more words than 500, you can route around the limit by simply grouping somewords together.
Take that theists!
Oh wait, that's characters, not words. Our mistake. Being a 2000 year old synod of demons, currently inhabiting the corpulent corpse of a catholic bishop, we're still getting used to this newfangled Internet you humans are so obsessed with.
PZ, fellow Pharyngulites, hi,
Decided to change my moniker from 'Steve in Dublin' to MetzO'Magic, as that's the one I've been using all over the web for the past 3 or 4 years. Don't know why I started using Steve in Dublin in the first place on these science blogs... perhaps I thought it sounded more up-market.
Anyway, I tried to change my display name in TypePad, but that caused this site to go into conniptions. So I had to change over to Movable Type.
Cheers,
The poster formerly known as Steve in Dublin
http://metzomagic.com/
Here is the comment I left for them:
My comment was:
"These "museums" are shrines to ignorance. The gross stupidity of the displays, the lack of scientific credibility and the wilful misinformation are staggering."
Tell it like it is I say.
I voted before reading, so I ended up using the Zip for Solvang.
I used the comment to insist that lying to children is a sin.
I suggested a Museum of Theokineticism - because gravity's only a theory, after all.
My comment:
"Creation Museum? I'd rather go to Disneyland. At least they admit they are a place of fantasy. There is no science in the creation myth. Period."
PS
I'm forced to reset my password every time I try to sign in. Am I doing something wrong? I do all the usual things, like ticking remember me, etc.
Hmm, where did I hear about this... does Pharyngula count as a church, d'you think? I'm gonna say "yes"...
wrpd4 - I toured Bradley when I was looking at colleges (and almost went to Monmouth); all I really remember about Bradley is that there were several areas where the sidewalk was painted with yellow stripes, and the tour guide finally said that they were areas of the campus that people were supposed to stay away from at night because there had been a real rape problem over the last few years. Yeaaaaah.
I told the survey that even though I don't live in Illinois any more, I would be ashamed to say I was from there if they had such a museum, and that Jesus would probably much rather they help out the victims of the continuing bad economy than build a place for people to look at.
Ah, I wish I'd seen all those Peoria postcodes. I'm from Oz, and the only American postcode I know is 90210. I changed it to 90211 for camouflage and then wrote "Creation museums are dishonest and stupid."
If they don't believe in us walking whales that's their problem.
I left a little comment behind. It went to the effect of:
I took the survey and left this comment.
I told them I'd much rather visit the Unicorn Museum :)
http://www.unicornmuseum.org/
Don't sweat another Creation Museum, PZ. They cost too much (all those animatronics) to proliferate across the land. A Peoria museum would be a pale shadow of Ken Ham's, and would have little patronage and pathetic attendance.
Oh my, they had a comments box. I had some fun with my comments. I hope they do too.
I used the comment box to threaten them with eternal damnation for their dishonesty. Just because I know that's a crock doesn't mean they do!
I grew up around there, and don't doubt that there's enough crackpots to support such a thing. Didn't stop me from leaving a comment to the effect that there are many better things they could do with their money, such as volunteering at a local hospital, building a park, or making a gift to an area hospital.
Awwww.... the link isn't working for me. ;_;
From my perspective, yes, there ARE enough creobots between here and there to support such a monstrosity. Whenever something mentions that "museum" near Cincinnati, Ohio, I always have to restrain myself from yelling, "It's in Kentucky, not Ohio! Give us SOME credit!", but alas, to no avail.
[Any freethinking Kentuckians should know what I'm talking about and I hasten to add that I do NOT think of them alongside their more nefarious citizens - I imagine they don't either.]
Other than the prevalence of religion in the area, I quite like the region. I imagine freethinking americans [sic] everywhere have the same thought...
I live in Chicago, so the idea of something like this going up in my state is nauseating.
Survey done with blistering comment made. Wrote something to the effect of it would be a shame if Peoria was made to play host to such a mockery of natural history and science.
@ #55 - Unicorn Museum?? My 9 year old self is squealing at the idea. That site is hilarious.
Thanks to necronomikron @ #5 for the US zip codes: it wouldn't accept a Canadian postal code.
I also lambasted them, politely of course, by stating that no, museums should be using valid scientific methodology and Creationism is not a valid scientific theory etc.
With all the different commentary they're getting, they should have an idea that they're getting hits from different individuals and not slammed by a small handful of Evolutionist True Believers.
Perhaps comments would have a midge more impact if the surveymeister thought A) that you heard about it through your church, and B) you lived in Peoria, and C) that every one of your religious friends oppose creationists and everything they stand for. hint, hint.
When I was a kid I didn't imagine that the 21st century would be a paradise of science and rationalism, but I really didn't think we'd actually be building anti-science, anti-intellectual museums.
done and done.
"No doubt like creationist "scientists" you'll ignore negative survey results. Favouring only the replies which agree with you.
How about this.. I'll make a donation if you don't come here...
Yours,
Concerned Peorian Citizen.
PS. People didn't ride dinosaurs."
"Christ would have spent his time and money ministering to the sick, the poor, and the hungry, not spreading misinformation about scientific breakthroughs (like evolutionary theory) that help us understand and enjoy His Creation."
That's about the best I could do without lying and saying I was christian. Saying "Jesus wouldn't do this" is probably better than talking about evidence and science. They believe in the first one, but not the second two.
Also, I didn't want to lie on the survey, so I used my old zip in rural Louisiana instead of my godless DC zip ;)
Wait! I think we are missing a chance.
We should all take the poll, and then ask for inclusion of an exhibit about humans riding Triceratops.
Well, I guess I reacted somewhat differently than most here. Instead of criticism and chastisement, I offered some friendly advice. I told them to build it between the Geocentrism and Lunar Landing Denial museums. Location, location, location.
I used to live in Rockford, IL. I tried to be somewhat polite in my comment:
"Please, no. The Bible is, at best, a collection of allegories. Trying to bend it to fit a "scientific" angle is disingenuous and hugely misleading. Science education is so important for ensuring a good future for the US. I would hope you'd recognize that a sound understanding of evolution doesn't only mean knowing of how living things came to be in their present form, but also, for example, how bacteria form resistance to antibiotics. Don't diminish curiosity and knowledge in our youth. Thanks."
I told them I wouldn't visit another museum so close to the one in KY, and that they should take their idea further west. Perhaps the good people in San Francisco would like their idea.
I grew up in Rockford, Ill., too... THEY have a very nice Museum! The Burpee Museum is the "home" of the juvenile T rex "Jane", displayed in a very nice exhibit.
Augusta College too, has a very nice little geology museum...
Peoria should use them as examples! Does Peoria have a legitimate museum to visit?
I want to keep these idiots confused so I gave them "holy hell" for "promoting dinosaurs that are not mentioned in the Bible."
You know, Peoria already has a real science museum. It even has the world’s largest complete scale model of the solar system! We went on a pilgrimage to Peoria just to see it (pics here).
Wow... I actually live here in Peoria...
Pretty ridiculous stuff here. There are these bus advertisements that I can't help but laugh at every time I see them. They say 'Peoria Rescue Ministries', and below it, subtitled 'Practical Christianity'.
I just left the comment that I'd rather go to a museum that teaches real science.
The great thing is, you can respond many times. I've done it five times so far...
I commented about the continual need to defend the thesis that anvils didn't float.
BTW, they've put some block in so I can't import good lines by T. Jefferson and M. Twain.
Now you've heard it from the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster,so next time, you can say that you heard it from your church.
I'm sorry, folks, but please just let me vent. I know that we already all know it, but these frightened people are just so STUPID!
Just great. I live in Peoria. At least there is a top-notch university here. Count me in to help oppose the monstrosity. Is there a mailing list for this?
@ #71 mingfrommongo | December 15, 2009 1:53 PM
"...and that they should take their idea further west. Perhaps the good people in San Francisco would like their idea."
I like your idea, but out here we're too near to the edge of the earth, and we're subject to earthquakes. That brings the edge closer as each quake breaks off more of the edge.
Peoria is my hometown (Richwoods '77 for those in the know). Dang, you never know when stupidity will rear its ugly head. On the other hand, this might have been fun. Encourage them to build this monstrosity and then watch it fail and maybe take down the one in KY as well. Every dollar spent on a failed museum is one less dollar spent on something more insideous, like a reprint of Origin of the Species.
Lakeview is the museum in Peoria, quite nice for a city that size. Can't see any lakes from there, though. Had a T-Rex skull in there for a time, on loan.
I answered "yes", and in the comment section I stated I was willing to donate several milion dollars to this wonderful monument to intelligence.
All they need to do is provide me their bank account details and a pay a modest transfer fee to arrange payment from the bank account of my late uncle the Mogwai of Nigeria.
Must have had an effect, the survey is closed when I visited the link...6:10 MST 12/15
Yes the site is closed now. But they have a facebook group! (search "Peoria Creation Museum Project")
Interesting mission statement on that facebook site regarding all the serious science they'll be doing:
"Mission:Exalt Jesus Christ as Creator, Redeemer and Sustainer through a safe, wholesome, family-friendly center for learning and discovery that clearly presents major biblical themes from Genesis to Revelation.
This center will equip Christians to better evangelize the lost with a sense of urgency, through a combination of exhibits, research and educational presentations that uphold the inerrancy of the Bible.
This center will also challenge visitors to receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord and to accept the authority of the Bible by providing culturally relevant biblical and scientific answers from a biblical worldview."
Sounds great! Is there any way we could get public funding into this project?! I'd love to see taxes go to this branch of science exploration and education.
I'd love to see the plans to this thing if it goes out to bid. I have contacts where I may even be able to take a look and laugh at it.
The survey is now closed, but please continue the emails to klang3@gmail.com and call 309-369-3111 and let them know how you feel. I'm from Peoria and don't want my town to become associated with anti science.
The facebook group is located here:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Peoria-Creation-Museum-Project/1675013877…
Scientific method requires observation and testing. We can neither observe nor test evolution or creation. They both take an amount of faith to draw correlation between observations and theory. I think there is room for both.
Evolution is theory that takes faith. None of us were there to witness it. I believe there is room for both.
"They both take an amount of faith to draw correlation between observations and theory"
Seth, that's very charitable a view.
But replace "faith" in that sentence with "logical conjecture" and we'll quickly see which one stands as a legitimate position on which to build further study: Should we continue to investigate the theory of evolution for more answers about our world or should we give equal time and resources to a theory of creationism? Based on the theory of evolution, we can make predictions, observable and falsifiable; also we can make retrodictions that can be proven false. A theory of special creation can't stand any such testing.
I think it would be just as overly-charitable to suggest that equal validity be given to human sexual reproduction and the stork as alternative theories.
I'm the organizer of the Peoria Humanist Society (http://www.peoriahumanistsociety.org). I've heard rumors about this for a couple months... someone's trying to push this stupid idea into the plans for the new Lakeview museum to built on the riverfront.
Did they close the survey because they got so many atheists contributing? Enquiring minds want to know :-)
I'm bummed I didn't get to take it.