It's not just crackers; they freak out over Mary's virginity. A New Zealand church put up this provocative billboard to get people to discuss the absurdity of literalism:
The Catholic Church condemned it as "inappropriate" and "disrespectful." I think it's funny (although it is based on an old joke), and does extract the message of the Bible from the remote and theological to something more earthy and thoughtful. And note — this was not put up by a gang of rabid atheists trying to mock Christianity, but by a sect of Christianity itself that was trying to lighten up the arguments.
You can guess what happened within a few hours of the billboard going up.
A spokesperson for the local Catholic diocese had this to say.
"Our Christian tradition of 2,000 years is that Mary remains a virgin and that Jesus is the son of God, not Joseph," she told the New Zealand Herald. "Such a poster is inappropriate and disrespectful."
So? You can believe Mary had three heads and wings and gave birth to Jesus through her anus to preserve her hymen, for all anyone cares. Your delusions are not ours to defend, and you do not have the power to force everyone to stop laughing at you, as much as you'd like to be able to do that. And isn't that what this is really about? That churches want to be able to punish you for disrespecting their sacred craziness?
Man, but Christians sure hold some silly beliefs. I'd happily desecrate this myth just like I did a cracker, except that I realized I've already had sex with a virgin named Mary about 30 years ago, and she won't let me run around repeating the act now.
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You had sex? Gross!
Whenever I see things like that, the first image that comes to my mind are religious fanatics firing machine guns in the air yelling "God is great!"
Yes, for goodness sake, don't let the children think for themselves
I'm just glad that Joseph is light skinned enough so that we can see his blush.
Let's see: Jesus and God are the same entity. Check. God impregnated Mary, who gave birth to Jesus, who is, as noted, God. Check. Ergo, Jesus screwed his mother. Right?
Are these people from West Virginia?
(Note to West Virginians: I'm allowed to make this joke. I was born and raised in West Virginia. And I screw my mother.)
This is disrespectful - to insane people everywhere. We need to readjust our world view every time we meet a psychotic, schizophrenic, or highly moral catholic. Otherwise, baby jebus will cry.
Again with the vandalism. I bet god told them to do it, 'cause, you know, he couldn't just smite the billboard if he wanted to.
I have never understood why people think God can't look after himself. If he's so offended by the billboard, let him strike it with lightning. If he doesn't, I guess he's cool with it.
And is he really such a sensitive, fragile personality? The almighty creator and lord of the universe can't even take a joke? Sheesh.
Well, at least her hair is modestly covered. Here's a thought, maybe Joseph was into anal.
God doesn't teach to respect other people's properties I guess.
I remember reading that mediaeval theology had Mary getting in the ear, to preserve her virginity...that's why women covered their ears back then...
Or something.
mary? thirty years ago?
DUDE!!! YOU'RE MY DAD!!!!
cervantes @ #8
Is it possible that this attitude has been maintained down the centuries from the days when (it was believed that) the Mesopotamian gods fought on their people's side against the other gods? So you had to help your god out. The priest told you how to do that.
You can guess what happened within a few hours of the billboard going up.
The Holy Ghost descended for a threesome?
Interesting, that the church is so concerned with the state of Mary's hymen. Strange things happen when a group gets obsessed like that.
Mary, Mary, quite contrary
What did you think of Joe?
Compared to God's, I think the odds
His measured up are low.
Mary, Mary, kept her cherry,
May God protect the lass;
To be like Her, good girls prefer
To take it up the ass.
What is it with the Catholic Church's obsession with Mary's hymen? Did she have the Holy Spirit living in her snatch, and was charged with the responsibility of protecting it from her husband's cock? Why must they insist that Mary not only got knocked up without the benefit of having gotten laid first, but then lived through years of married life and still got no action? If I were Mary OR Joseph, I'd call bullshit on that arrangement. Perhaps Joseph had some sheep on the side to keep him happy?
But all that said? TMI, PZ!
Mary was a white chick with blue eyes?
Cuttlefish, Thank you for the coffee spewed all over my keyboard and screen.Who knew hymens were so extraordinary. Now I wish I had one.
Todays Thingpart seems remarkably appropriate.
Mary had at least one dick in her... Jesus'
Didn't Jesus have siblings, such as James the Just, who later became head of the Church in Jerusalem? Did God sire them, too?
+1 For Cuttlefish. Dunno what the actual score is now, but you've got to be in the multi-millions...
According to the bible, Jesus had brothers - James, Joses, Jude, and Simon. Two sisters are also mentioned. Either Mary did not remain a virgin, or Joseph engaged in polygyny.
haha, is it just me or does joseph have a look on his face like he's masterbating?
I thought it was well known that the big sky daddy was a northern european. With his miraculous powers, he can make a person into his ideal partner.
Well I guess this is yet more evidence that most christians don't read their bible. According to that infallible (/sarc) tome Jesus did in fact have four brothers (James, Joses, Juda and Simon) and at least two sisters.
(Mark 6:3 & Mathew 13:55)
So apparently Joseph and Mary did get it on alright anyway.
Alright, I understand that Jesus was supposed to have been immaculately conceived and the son of god... I get that.
But does it actually state anywhere in the Bible that Mary died a virgin?
Are we really supposed to believe that Mary and Joseph never had sex?
And how is this a threat to anyone's Christian beliefs? Does Mary having sex after Jesus is born somehow diminish his divinity?
To ephemeriss:
As cairne.morane said, it's implied in the Bible that Mary did not die a virgin and had a sex life, since she had at least 6 other children after Jesus.
What is so damn good about being a virgin anyway?
What is wrong with sex?
Both god and Darwin thought highly of it. And without sex, no one reading this blog would be here and people wouldn't have anything to eat. Our entire food supply depends on self replenishing stocks of plants and animals.
The RCC is basically like an old wrecked ship encrusted with a thick coat of the barnacles of superstition. It isn't going anywhere and eventually will just sink into the ooze.
I've been told by religious types that they reconcile Jesus' biblical siblings with the notion that Mary remained forever a virgin by saying the other kids were Joseph's by a previous marriage.
I've never looked into whether that view is officially promoted as church doctrine, because I can't work up that much interest in something so silly, but that's what I've heard.
OK, I get that they need Mary to have been a virgin before giving birth to Jesus, otherwise the miracle birth game's up (though frankly I can't see why a non-virgin who simply hadn't had sex for an appropriate number of months immediately prior to birth wouldn't be just as good for that particular miracle. Unless, perhaps, the messed-up authors of that damn book also subscribed to the notion that even a woman who's had sex but entirely inside marriage is still icky compared to one who's never done it at all, and god doesn't like sloppy seconds), but in order to oppose this particular poster people seem to be assuming Joseph never managed to get any even after Jesus' birth, for the whole rest of his marriage. Why should that be a requirement, and surely it's rather unlikely? (Also, I imagine Joseph would have been a really tough convert to his son's newfangled faith under such circumstances - a man both cuckolded and then deprived from sex for his entire life, with a son sired by another who goes out and causes no end of trouble, can hold a grudge that way.)
Virgin Birth:
http://jimculleny.wordpress.com/virgin-birth/
i think the catholic doctorine is that mary had a magical purity virginity thing going on, so even when her and her cuckholded husband fullfilled their marriage obligations she was still a virgin.
makes total sense.
Mary was immaculately conceived (born without "original sin"). Jesus was miraculously conceived.
As for his brothers and sisters, I think some believe that they are from Joseph's previous marriage (widower).
I don't understand the Catholic Church's objection; the billboard does not in any way imply that Joseph had sex with Mary. It rather implies that she was holding out on him, I would think.
The Catholic Church: Taking Offense at Reality Since the Middle Ages - No Implication Too Vague!
I was always confused on this bit. If Mary never consummates the marriage to Joseph, their marriage should be invalid. It seems odd to promote her virginity over being a good wife.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_impediment#List_of_diriment_impe…
(although it is based on an old joke)??? was it the once-a-year-and-down-the-chimney joke, or some other old season nugget?
The whole RCC Mary the perpetual virgin with 7 kids thing is just silly and might have made sense to superstitious misogynistic morons 2,000 years ago.
Today it is just an amusing ancient weird belief. Except to people who haven't got the memo. The Dark Ages are over, set your calendar ahead to the 21st century.
WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?
Oh wait... never mind.
Jesus had siblings because Joseph, driven mad by lack of a biological son, habitually kidnapped Jesus' play-date chums, raising them as his own. It's probably why they had to move around so much in our Lord's early years.
I suppose it could be that they were his illegitimate sons, which he kept, but I think the former is more likely what God would allow to happen, given the All-Mighty's record of extra-marital abstinence advocacy and general preference for the most evil option, every time.
It's important enough that the only time a Pope has spoke ex cathedra to invoke Papal Infallibility was to declare the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin as Catholic dogma. So I guess the good Catholic's answer to questioning Mary's perpetual virginity is "Pope said it, I believe it, 'nuff said".
Then they weren't Jesus's brothers and sisters. As Catholics are more than ready to tell you, God was Jesus's father, not Joseph.
Um, no. You don't. One of the commonest errors in/about Catholic belief. Mary was the immaculate conception, conceived the normal way, via teh sex, but without the blemish of original sin. This is what made her worthy of carrying Jesus.
As youngsters in CCD, we had a number of questions for Fr. Cajetan about Mary's perpetual virginity. We were told that yes, Mary and John behaved as married couples behaved, Jesus was born via the regular route, and that yes, he had siblings. Mary's virginity, supposedly, was always miraculously restored. As usual, when your theology backs you into a corner, just shout "Magic!". It didn't make sense to me then, even as little as I knew about hymens, sex, and childbirth, so it became one of the first things I decided to interpret metephorically in Catholicism. I just took it to mean she was in some special state of spiritual purity due to the immaculate conception. Later I ran into other priests that pretty much saw it that way too. I'm not really sure what the official position was supposed to be. I doubt the many believing Catholics or even clergy know. Maybe one of these days thay'll sit down and get their stories straight.
...in bed.
So many second coming jokes, so when do the kiwis start rioting?
A lot of trouble could have been avoided if God had just plopped a fully-realized baby into Mary's arms, without the whole pregnancy bit. Or, come to think of it, a fully-realized Jesus-man could have just moved in with Mary and Joe. But I guess we need the humble background stories, carpenter and all that, to make a true politician religious leader.
So cat-a-lickers don't participate in sex acts in their heaven idea? Or, is poor Mary barred forever, having committed the sin of birthing their god idea without having had vaginal sex?
Lynna, what kind of story could Joseph and Mary tell the neighbors about the strange man moving in with them? Sounds hinky. (Yes, that is what I meant to spell.)
So Mary's reward for serving as the mother of Jesus was to have sex hurt like hell every single time? Yeah, sounds like something God would do.
IIRC the only mention in the Bible of Jesus's siblings is a quotation of someone asking "Is this not Jesus, son of Joseph, brother of James ...?" To the people of the time, unaware of Jesus's "true" father, they would have been his brothers and sisters.
They say they want religion out in public, but they don't. They want expressions of faith out in public. They want initiated evangelism out in public. They want scriptural rationales out in public. But bringing religion itself into the public square means that the specific beliefs are going to be leveled down from their high-and-mighty perch and open to debate, ridicule, disagreement, and analysis by outsiders -- same as politics, science, and social theory.
So now, all of a sudden, religion is a delicate flower which needs to be sheltered in its own environment and kept to its own believers.
I once wrote a poem titled "Deciduous Virgin" -- You lose it, but you get it back every spring.
As for the hinky story of the man moving in with Mary and Joe -- well, what did they tell people when Mary got pregnant before Joe had ever had sex with her? Now that was a good story! If Mary came up with that story, I'm sure she could have come up with something to explain a new man in the house.
A Baptist preacher once told me that God sent the holy seed into Mary via a beam of heavenly light. The light got into her womb without causing any damage, hence the virginity. I didn't know enough at the time to ask what happened when she gave birth.
"Our Christian tradition of 2,000 years is that Mary remains a virgin and that Jesus is the son of God, not Joseph," she told the New Zealand Herald. "Such a poster is inappropriate and disrespectful."
How can one and a half sentences fail on so many levels.
Xians had argued b'tween 'n' b'twixt and got all trembly bottom lip for 300 years before the Lateran Council of 649 AD and jolly Pope Martin made an executive decision that jeebus had a ma who was a bit of a slut!
'The doctrine of perpetual virginity'..presumably designed to excuse the bitch from sleeping around!
Not all are convinced still...
Pope Benedict XVI:
“According to the faith of the Church, the Sonship of Jesus does not rest on the fact that Jesus had no human father: the doctrine of Jesus’ divinity would not be affected if Jesus had been the product of a normal human marriage…”
So according to papal infallibility it does not matter anyway, just goes to show that catolik dogma has no real problem with a wife screwing someone who is not her husband...but presumably her 'father' and getting pregnant.
But that don't confront no one not no how.
Seems catoliks themselves should start to clean up their own stench and get some morality?
Cos presently what they have is inappropriate and disrespectful.
A poster is just a transitory thing...these fucktards have issues in their own irony!
...on the assumption that non-Catholics are not Christians, I guess, unless needed to make up the numbers for some arguments.
The poster's point doesn't actually need to be about sex at all, if the Catholics can choose to suspend their inclination to take offense. Just imagine (in the spirit of the story) how the rest of Mary's life would have been dull compared to the brilliance of being chosen and impregnated by God, no matter the method.
Time to stir the pot some more:
According to Ragutis (and others I'm too lazy to scroll back to find) catholic doctrine is that Mary was born without original sin, which made her worthy to carry Jesus.
So a human *can* be born without original sin?
I think we can all recognize the theological problems with this.
The version of that passage in Mark 6 comes 3 chapters after God himself declares "This is my son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased".
Jesus was good and out of the closet at that point.
Erm, it's 5 chapters later actually. The declaration is in Mark 1, and in Matthew 3. Got them mixed up.
What's that old saying?
It must be Christmas, because I've got a hankering to give a virgin a baby!
Virgin barnacles, no less.
Does the second picture imply that Joseph and Mary were in to scat porn? Christians and their fetishes are too much.
Alt010 #24, actually it looks like Mary is reluctantly (or perhaps just thoughtfully) jerking him off.
I have no medical knowledge, but if mary was a virgin when jebus was born, wouldn't the physical birth kinda fuck up that whole "virgin/intact hymen" thing?
Actually, at best it's a 1,850 year tradition, since Mary was retconned in the Protoevangelium of James.
Hmmm... no apoplexy from Bill Donohue yet. Perhaps he's misplaced his pearls? Fainting couch being reupholstered? Maybe at his age it takes a while for the vapours to build up enough pressure.
The first mention of the brothers (named) and sisters (unnamed) is in Mark, which has no birth narrative at all and so naturally knows nothing of a virgin birth. Interestingly, Mark also does not mention Joseph anywhere. The people of Nazareth, questioning Jesus's authority, say "is this not the carpenter (Gr. tekton, lit. "craftsman"), is this not the son of Mary?" and to call someone "the son of (his mother)" in ancient Semitic society was to imply illegitimacy. So the author of Mark was not on board with any of the later doctrines.
The virgin birth is interesting, deriving from two completely separate literary traditions. The first, of course, is the famously mistranslated into Greek passage from Isaiah: where the Hebrew has "young woman (not denoting virginity)," the Greek has "parthenos", "virgin." ("She shall bear a child, and call his name Emmanuel" where the name means "God with us"). Beyond the mistranslation, it's a complete misuse of the passage anyway. What the author of Isaiah thought of the concept of God being with us and what the evangelists thought are quite divergent. Anyway, so on one hand you have this sort of mangled messianic prophesy from the scriptures, and on the other you have the Greco-Roman tradition of a hero's or a king's divine or miraculous birth (think Asklepios or Herakles, and stories like Suetonius's of Octavian being conceived via Apollo in the form of a serpent). Just another example of the syncretic mash-up that became Christianity.
What I don't get is where the perpetual virginity thing came from. If, as seems likely, the authors of the gospels just wanted to bring their hero tale up to Greco-Roman spec with a hero's birth, then it doesn't matter about his mother's virginity later. Original sin and related nonsense got mixed in there at some point in the 2nd Century, perhaps as an instance of "creedal athleticism," the tendency of religious communities under skeptical scrutiny or social opprobrium for their professed beliefs to actually intensify the commitment to the most extreme and unlikely among their articles of faith. (Modern Catholics vociferously defending transubstantiation and Mary's perpetual virginity, as seen here and during Crackergate, would be a recent example of the same thing.)
This post reminds me of the one on Ed Brayton's blog about the dark-skinned middle eastern Nativity. How dare atheists mess with Christian's self defined ideals about people who may not have existed?
creating trons | December 17, 2009 1:28 PM:
Didn't you hear what Jesus said just before he was born? "Beam me out Scotty. The Church wants mama to remain a virgin."
God- he can smite anything that he doesn't like...
...well, except, y'know- gays, other religion heathens, atheists/agnostics, billboards, articles on the internet, books, statues, art pieces, countries, states, communities... (off the top of my sleep-deprived head)
In fact, I've never heard of a scientifically proven smiting...
I kind of wonder if the people who pull of these stunts have a small, wee little corner of their head where there is an small bit of agnosticism/atheism (or at least doubt that God has the ability to do anything to the material world). >>
Say, where are all the Catholics on this thread, anyway? Jesus being a cracker is fine and dandy, but even they think Mary staying a virgin is ridiculous?
Nathan M, doesn't the Protoevangelium of James also mention that Mary was visibly pregnant when she was "not yet 13 winters" old or something like that? Not yet 13 is 12 and since it takes time for the embryo to get big enough to be noticed, she could have been knocked up at age 11. I don't think an 11 year old can consent to becoming a monther. So wouldn't that make the christian god a pedophile?
Well, the conception apparently predated Gabe's announcement of the pregnancy. So consent was already out the window... might as well start tapping the temple maidens, right?
Regardless of God's proclamation at Jesus's baptism, in Mark 6:
it is clear that these people are quite unaware of it and so refer to Jesus by his "natural" family.
Someone at the Friendly Atheist linked to the church's post about their sign, and comments thereafter:
http://www.stmatthews.org.nz/nav.php?sid=498&id=999
My favorite comment so far is this one:"I honestly don't want to be around when you try to explain to our Lord this picture of His Mother."
Jesus - unable to cope with "yo mamma" jokes since 0000AD.
According to St Birgitta of Vadstena, who had a vision of Jebus's birth, the entire thing was entirely miraculous and left the hymen intact. Sort of makes you wonder why a human mother was necessary anyway.
Another "explanation" I've heard of Jesus's brothers and sisters is that the word was used in an extended sense - they were actually cousins. The idea ought worry literalists, but I don't know if it's plausible as far as circa AD 100 Greek goes.
Ragutis@63: I looked to the Catholic League's website to check for a possible update and discovered that Bill Donohue's book Secular Sabotage is promoted using a quote from Stephen Colbert.
#73
'According to St Birgitta of Vadstena, who had a vision of Jebus's birth, the entire thing was entirely miraculous and left the hymen intact.'
Handy these vision thigamies...gets xians outta so much grief.
The fucking lying batshit crazy loons the lot of 'em!
Naturally, "(You may use HTML tags for style)" does not mean you may use HTML tags. Here is the link:
http://www.catholicleague.org/images/upload/image_200909221306.jpg
Yeah. Because everybody is totally going to stop mocking them now that I posted that.
I say one thing to the local Arch Diocese:
Matt 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.
If god the dad is all powerful, why couldn't jesus be found under a cabbage leaf or brought by a stork?
Or rising from the deep on a giant cockle shell like Venus or born from someone's head like Athena?
The xian god doesn't have much imagination or sense of style.
The whole point of the billboard was to ruffle feathers. There was no other good reason for putting it up.
That's pretty funny.
One group of people believing in fairy tales is ruffling the feathers of a different group of fairy tale believers on the minute differences in what they believe.
Fucking hilarious.
Every performer needs a manager. Had she not been there for the wedding at Cana, the entire event would have been a disaster and his career as a thaumaturge wouldn't have taken off.
Ruffling religious feathers is an end in itself. It wouldn't happen so damn often, anyway, if the feathers weren't so eminently rufflable. (Yes, that is a real word. I say so.)
So tell me what the point of putting up the billboard was.
Cairne:
Of course, a human can be born without original sin! I mean, it is a hackneyed, over-used, much-maligned, widely-practiced sin - hardly original! But it is so much fun, though. :)
I think the Christians have it all wrong...
Mary only "appeared" to still be a virgin. God, you see, has a VERY small penis. That explains a lot, don't you think?
Inane Jojame again:
Visit and read the fucking link!
It says clearly:
St Matthew-in-the-City Church in Auckland, which erected the billboard, said it had intended to provoke debate...
The church's vicar, Archdeacon Glynn Cardy, said the aim of the billboard had been to lampoon the literal interpretation of the Christmas conception story.
"What we're trying to do is to get people to think more about what Christmas is all about," he told the New Zealand Press Association (NZPA).
"Is it about a spiritual male God sending down sperm so a child would be born, or is it about the power of love in our midst as seen in Jesus?"
To be otherwise consistent with the Bible, doesn't that mean she has to trace her parentage back to Lilith and not Eve?
That was a rather unfortunate color they chose to censor the billboard with. Sorta look like someone smeared feces all over the billboard. Now isn't that an even greater desecration, dirtying up thee holy family like that?
I'm going with a line from Dogma on this one - sez Rufus to our heroine Bethany: "Mary gave birth to CHRIST without having known a man's touch, that's true. But she did have a husband. And do you really think he'd have stayed married to her all those years if he wasn't getting laid? The nature of God and the Virgin Mary, those are leaps of faith. But to believe a married couple never got down? Well, that's just plain gullibility."
Not that I buy any of the Virgin Birth thing, but the last part of that quote just gets me every time I hear someone protest that Mary remained a virgin for the rest of her life, otherwise, she wouldn't be worthy to be the mother of Christ. I mean really, what is it with the Catholic Church and human sexuality?
I have two answers for this. Take your pick:
a) That you can't think of one doesn't mean there isn't one.
or
b) Yeah, and?
To piss you, personally, off.
Really, jojame, the world neither requires nor requests your approval.
JESUS TO JOSEPH
Dear Dad, I really need to know,
Am I your only son?
When Mommy’s egg turned into me,
Were you the lucky one?
JOSEPH TO JESUS
My boy, I wish I knew the truth,
There’s been some misdirection
On what occurred the sacred night
She first felt my erection.
'Twas nine short months before your birth,
We’d slipped out from a party,
And I was feeling Mary up,
And my cock was feeling hearty. . .
JESUS
I don’t need every fact, you know,
The details make me queasy,
It’s bad enough I have to hear,
That Mom was pretty easy!
JOSEPH
Easy she was, and no mistake,
Her cunny was fantastic!
All warm and moist and slippery-sweet
And totally elastic.
JESUS
[Retches]
JOSEPH
“I want you Joe!” sweet Mary cried,
And to her bed we hurried,
And in the darkness tried it on,
Though we were never married.
JESUS
[pale, wiping mouth]
So then you are my own true pop?
All Glory Be On High!
I will not have to go and preach,
And tortuously die!
JOSEPH
Hang on a minute, poor old chap,
My story hasn’t ended,
As in the bedroom in the dark,
My loving was upended.
For Mary turned her back to me,
When we were getting down,
And thus my meatstick slipped in back,
Where it is tight and brown.
JESUS
[GRRRrooooaaarrrggghhhhh... ! ! !]
JOSEPH
And then I heard another’s voice,
And Mary gave a squeal,
And I felt another’s giant cock,
Slip up her like an eel.
But I was too far gone, you see,
Nor did my Mary care,
She screamed and moaned in ecstasy,
With cocks in front and rear.
With one great unitary voice,
Our pleasure synchronised,
Our fluids gushed, and gushed again,
And Mary vocalized:
“Oh my Sweet Lord, the Angels sang!
I think I was transported!
No sex has ever been so good!
With God I have cavorted!”
And that is how the story spread
Of Heavenly conception,
But certainly it wasn’t me
Who sowed with my erection.
JESUS
Then it is true as Mother says,
That I’m the Son of God?
So much for my nice quiet life,
I wish I was a dog!
JOSEPH
I can’t confirm that godditit,
For I was up her rear,
But I can say that another cock,
Was definitely there.
And also, (I remember now)
When the fucking was all over,
I'm sure I heard my brother Zeb,
Say, “Joe, you’ll be in clover!”
HAPPY MONKEY!
Smoggy Batzrubble
@91
Bethany was a lapsed Catholic who just balanced her checkbook after Mass. If she was a sophisticated Catholic she would take it as a Papally-guaranteed item of faith that Mary's virginity was perpetually restored.
The Litih-as-Adam's-first-wife* story isn't in the Bible, so I don't see how that helps.
* Who married them, anyway? God Himself?
If Joseph is not Jesus' father, then why trace Jesus' lineage through Joseph? Or was it a case of sloppy seconds?
Smoggy @93: ♥ ♥ ♥
It's commonly construed as being the woman created in Genesis 1, as opposed to the one in Genesis 2. The Bible doesn't make it explicit, though.
Alyson @97: *blush*
Smoggy & Alyson-
They always go for the poets.
And if the first marriage ended in divorce, why is divorce taboo?
Good to see you back, Brother Smoggy! That was a brilliant effort.
And yay (as usual!) for the one and only Cuttlefish!
One day Jesus walks down to the Heavenly Gates and tells Peter "Hey Pete, take a break, I'll check on the folks coming in."
So Peter leaves and Jesus is standing by the Gates when this old man comes up: "Can I come in?"
Jesus says: "You have to tell me something about yourself first."
The old man replies: "I was a wood worker and I had a son, only he wasn't really my son."
Jesus said respectfully: "Father?"
The old man responded: "Pinocchio?"
The arts of Russia after the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union have begun to appear in the West, some online. I browsed one apparently iconic image from there that shows Mary's mother, who, unable to bear children, and high up in Egyptian society, had adopted Mary, the virgin, therefore her mother, which became the so-called daughter of the Virgin's birth, Jesus.
The Swedes have redefined it as a vaginal corona.
My guess would be that it was a calvinist group; the contemporary Lutherans never appeared to be so obsessed with catholic beliefs, but the Pentecostals sneer at the catholics because they believe they have a monopoly on truth. So on the one hand they laugh at the catholics for believing in the virgin birth, but they believe some pretty stupid shit too. It's a pity that some people are so stupid they say they're offended and behave like monkeys.
Smoggy @ #93
Thanks for the elucidation Smoggy. I never would have guessed that Mary was such a naughty tart.
Poor Mary. She didn't get to have Original Sin, so presumably she had Diet Sin or Caffeine Free Sin. Or one of those off brand things that look like Sin but sell for a quarter of the price.
the billboard was put up by a liberal Anglican church.
Poor Joseph. Just think - he has to spend eternity being known for all time as the man who stirred God's Holy Porridge.
Smoggy;
I think that if your version of the (not so) Immaculate Conception was taught in theology classes attendence rates would definately improve.
Alyson Miers @ 97;
Careful. At this rate you are going to make Floyd jealous.
Peptron @ 2;
'Whenever I see things like that, the first image that comes to my mind are religious fanatics firing machine guns in the air yelling "God is great!"'
I often think that the only real difference between the Taliban and US or UK grown Xian fundies is a disparity in firepower.
Well, we are talking Kiwis here. As far as I know they're less gun-happy than we Australians are (not counting northern Queensland, of course; that place is like the wild west) - though I've got no hard data to back that up.
To show that you personally are an ugly, stupid troll.
You and several million co-religionists.
It worked like a charm. Out-thinking a dog is harder than out-thinking religious kooks.
Often??? How about all the time.
The defining characteristic of civilized societies is now known. They don't let their religious kooks run around loose worshipping gods in the old way. With weapons and frequent murders.
As bad as the USA is, many countries are worse.
Old sigline-
Original is getting hard to find, but the digitally enhanced version is readily available online
I was under the impression that Christian churches frowned on adultery. Yet here's their gawd screwing someone else's wife.
I saw this on the new last night (I am an NZ-er).
Apparently they considered another option but decided against it. They showed a mock up of it, and I did laugh out loud.
It was a single giant sperm descending from heaven, intended to be lit in neon (I think), with the subtitle "Joy to the World!"
Brilliant... now that would have upset the catholics!!!!
Unfortunately, Catholics do not know enough biology to understand that if Jesus was really result of a virgin birth (parthenogenesis)... "he" would be a "she"....
Specifically, "she" would be a clone of Mary.
In the desert of "Sonora" there are some parthenogenetic lizards (Cnemidophorus neomexicanus ) that could clarify the point.
Maybe we could start a new religion... "the church of the holy lizard"...
By the way... in spanish we have "Jesusa" as the female equivalent of the name Jesus, is there an equivalent in english?
According to the RC theology I was taught in elementary school, Joseph was a widower who had children by his first wife. After he married Mary--has anyone seen the real marriage certificate?--his sex life went out the window with the Holy Ghost.
There is no mention in the bibble about Joe's first wife or her death. Joseph could have been a polygamist and had one wife for sex and another one for housework. Who knows?
One of the titles given to St Joseph was "most chaste spouse" which was often misunderstood as "most chased spouse".
The real theory behind all of this blather is that sex is bad.
Bringing up Mary's youth is fun to do to someone who just called Mohammed a pedophile in some anti-muslim rant. Mo consummated his marriage to Aisha at the same age Joseph was getting ready to with Mary. Well, before YHWH made him a cuckold.
Poor Joseph. It's gotta suck, having to be "dad" to the guy that fucked your wife.
'Tis @ 116: I was under the impression that Christian churches frowned on adultery.
'S OK; she wasn't an adult.
This reminds me of something...
There was a picture from a gay marriage support thing which showed some signs (one being held by a boy) saying:
Jesus had two daddies -- why can't I?
The interpretation seemed to have been God, and Joseph.
I have to wonder how accurate this is, though. Given Trinitarianism, there's God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit as two separate persons. According to Luke 1:35, Gabriel told Mary: "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you."
So it looks like two of the persons of God impregnated Mary, meaning that Jesus had three daddies.
Amen, as Smoggy often says.
I love how the Catholics differ with the Anglicans, who themselves differ with the Lutherans, who also differ with the Southeast Northwestern Reformed Baptist Congregationalist Trinity Consecrated Pentecostal Church of the Redeemer on things. Can't they all just get along?
@16:
Yeah, pretty much. A medieval theologian actually put it in terms of "defiling the holy chamber with the seed of a man".
And that's why the Church for so many centuries put forward in its iconography the image of Joseph as an old, white-bearded figure. Just as insurance, to make certain that even if he'd wanted Mary (of whom it's said that no man could look on her with desire although she was more beautiful than any woman who ever lived), he couldn't do anything about it.
(And yet there's another legend that all of Mary's suitors came to the temple and each laid his staff on the altar. Joseph's was the only one to, ahem, burst into bloom. Spontaneously. The symbolism is not obscure.)
@118:
As everyone knows, the H in "Jesus H. Christ!" stands for Haploid.
@ 118 and 125
I was just thinking that myself, and thinking it would be a really easy way for PZ to desecrate the myth. A simple 3-minute video describing this basic fact of chromosomes would be sufficient. It might not have the shock value of the cracker desecration, but it would be equal parts getting the job done and worth it.
Or maybe a 4-minute video, made in collaboration with a certain comedy team known for lampooning these sorts of things, in which PZ in his renowned role as science advisor to the stars, tries to explain how difficult the virgin birth will be would work? Hmm, I wonder (and I apologize for the run-on sentence previously).
The different denominations actually do a bit of a dance on who is in full communion with whom. A fair number of Lutheran churches are in full communion with a fair number of Anglican/Episcopalian churches (though it isn't necessarily transitive, A may be in communion with B and B with C but A might not be in communion with C). Though some Lutheran churches aren't in communion with other Lutheran churches (and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod won't even pray with people from other churches).
St. Matthews which put up the billboard seems to be as progressive as they come (one of the sermons on the site says flat out that the ascension didn't happen so what are we to make of the story) and one of the ministers was invited to speak to the New Zealand Association of Rationalists and Humanists a few years back. It includes the following
Wait, I thought it stands for Hussein *confused*
Hussein, oh shit. Their messiah is a nazi-commie atheist-muslim.
@126 I was just thinking that myself, and thinking it would be a really easy way for PZ to desecrate the myth. A simple 3-minute video describing this basic fact of chromosomes would be sufficient.
I just have an hipotesis!!!
If i understand the process (i am an enginner, not a biologist), Cnemidophorus neomexicanus is the result of the cross of two related but different species of lizards, with a different chromosome count.
The difference of the chromosome counts, caused the meiosis to produce an egg with a whole set of chromosomes.
(sorry, i think i my english redaction is not correct, but i hope the idea gets through..)
So in order to Mary be able to produce a virgin birth, her mother should have been mated to an... err... species near to us, but with a diferent chromosome count.
mhhh.. a bonobo seems improbable, but maybe a surviving neanderthal... somewhere i read that a diferent chromosome count could explain why sapiens neandertalis and sapiens sapiens seemed to have little mix... except in this famous case...
but damm... i forgot that we have we no evidence that jesus existed..
So, as Planck said, your more beatifull theory can be detroyed by a little ugly fact...
Pretty sure there's not. Nothing that I can think of. But I didn't know about "Jesusa." Is it common?
Not very common but it is used, at least i know a couple of people with that name. One them is an actress.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesusa_Rodriguez
And there is a famous mexican song called "jesusita" (little Jesusa)
http://www.amazon.com/Jesusita-En-Chihuahua/dp/B000SHLARC
This is the result of the custom of name people after the name of the saints celebrated on that day. Sometimes there is not a name available for the correct sex, so some tweaking is nedded.
Jesus- jesusa
jorge- georgina
primitivo- primitiva
felipe-felipa
Adrian-Adriana
etc.
Also, Maria, in México sometimes is used for males, although usually as a double name as in "Jose Maria".
PZ:
Srsly, PZ. You fell for that one? And here I thought you were a skeptic!
(/Apologies to the Trophy Wife. I in no way mean to besmirch your character or virtue. I just couldn't resist.) ;-)
So 'Jesus fucking Christ', a not uncommon middle name for the fella in Aussie context, isn't the correct one?
Tell me that is a fucking joke!
"Your delusions are not ours to defend, and you do not have the power to force everyone to stop laughing at you, as much as you'd like to be able to do that. And isn't that what this is really about? That churches want to be able to punish you for disrespecting their sacred craziness?
Isn't that what Your activities are all about here? To laugh at people because they think different from you? Nice, professor Myers.
However, marry christmas and happy new year.
However, marry christmas and happy new year.
Get it right, killjoy! Around this neck of the woods the proper wishes are: 'Joyous Yuletide and a Happy New Year'.
Presume that 'marry' bit isn't meant like that, or is it?
And we are laughing at the superstitious people AND their silliness AND their silly ideas.
@135
We don't laugh at people because they think differently than we do. We laugh at people who adamantly refuse to think, period.
Marry christmas and Happy Monkey to you, too.
I would love to have been there on that first conversation...
Mary: Joseph, I have something to tell you.
Joseph: Yes, Mary?
Mary: I am pregnant.
Joseph: Jesus wept! Who? What? Where? How?
Mary: Nobody. Well, it was God actually?
Joseph: Are you taking the piss? It was that bloody Eric the baker, wasn't it?!
Mary: No honestly. God visited and thought I was a bit of a babe. He is a bit old for me to be honest, being nearly 14 billion years old, but when I turned him down, he got a bit wrathful, and kept going on about pillars of salt :(
Joseph: Wheres the lads? Got to go and pick some decent size stones. Haven't had a good stoning for ages, since Mr Cohen mentioned the almighty when he was having his fish supper.
Mary: No please, Joseph. Don't tell your mates. They won't believe me!
Joseph: Never!
Mary: Oh Joseph, please, please, please. I will do anything you ask!
Joseph: Really?? :-) So, why do I have to look after God's bastard? Can't he do it himself?
Mary Well, he is not much of a father, as he never had one himself, as he created himself. He said he would make it up to you.
Joseph: How?
Mary: You will never be short of wood for your carpentry, and we will always have lots of fishes and loaves, and we shall have the first Xmas tree.
Joseph: Is that it? He calls that alimony? His generosity is overwhelming. Where's he going to be then?
Mary: He said he has a Universe to run, but he will be over for Xmas dinner every year, so no father-in-law jokes. You know how testy he is. He might pop down for a bit of nooky now and then as well, as he was quite keen on it. Kept shouting his own name out all the time!!
Joseph: OK, I will go and bullshit the mates, although I don't know who would be daft enough to believe that story!!
Bah. shonny beat me to the punch.
@wrpd4 #119:
That would be the "apocryphal teachings". One of the things that happened over the past few hundred years is that stories and passages considered not to be part of the original biblical texts (the apocrypha) were purged. Yet the contemporary bible contains so many stylistically inconsistent parts that the addition and deletion by multiple authors is obvious - I wonder why more hadn't been purged - it may even save a few trees. Some apocryphal stories are far more interesting than most biblical stories - I remember a few about jesus as a child; he'd work some miracle while playing (like jumping off a cliff), a playmate would try the same and die, and when the parents came howling to Joseph and Mary, jesus would say "oh, but he's not really dead, he's only sleeping" and resurrect his playmate - just like D&D.
OK. Marry -> Merry. My mistake. Funny. :-)
So you laugh at people because they do not think. Still very nice, isn't it?
I know about som retarded people living near my place. Perhaps next time i see them i should stop and laugh at them? Then perhaps I can join your club. You are sooo cool.
Interestingly, "cretin" is probably derived from a french word for "christian" according to Wikipedia. Just forget about why: as a reminder of the humanity of the afflicted.
@142:
If there was a chance that mocking would restore the mentally challenged to full functioning, than mocking them would be the kinder thing to do, wouldn't it?
Since those who choose not to think can change their minds about it, a gentle, encouraging mocking is in order.
@143: Ha Ha! Jesus, you are a cretin!
Nobody here laughs at mentally handicapped people. We laugh at people who are perfectly capable of rational thought but refuse to do so. IOW, people like you.
BTW, we don't want you in our club. We are not "cool", we are a motley crew of nerds and geeks. Come back when you have achieved a more elevated level of geekiness and nerdom. (This will require reading more than just your favorite book. Trust me, there's a LOT of them out there.)
Ouch! Straw man alert. You have no idea about my reading habbits or how I use my capabilities, or of my nerdom and geekiness for that matter. Try to impress me. :-)
Btw, what could possibly be more nerdy than actually learning Our Father in latin? OK, that would be Our Father in klingon I guesss..
Btw, what could possibly be more nerdy than actually learning Our Father in latin?
That's not nerdy; that's just sad.
The family values group Family First said any debate about the Virgin birth should be held inside the church. - From the link
Love it: only those sufficiently expert at believing blithering nonsense are to be allowed to take part!
#143 & 145
The etymology for cretin is unclear.
The first written occurence of the word is in a 1750 memoir by the Marquis de Maugiron voyage en suisse:
il nait chez eux [les valaisans] en assés grande quantité, et surtout a Sion leur capitale vne espece d'hommes qu'ils apellent cretins […].
But no indication is given on the word's origin.
The connection cretin/chretien first appears in various texts in the XIX Ctry.
Many speculative hypotheses exist :
The most common derivation provided in English dictionaries is from the Alpine French dialect pronunciation of the word Chrétien ("(a) Christian"), which was a greeting there. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the translation of the French term into "human creature" implies that the label "Christian" is a reminder of the humanity of the afflicted, in contrast to brute beasts.
Other sources suggest that Christian describes the person's "Christ-like" inability to sin, stemming, in such cases, from an incapacity to distinguish right from wrong.
Also,
From creta, Latin for chalk, because of the pallor of those affected.
From "Crete", where iodine insufficiency (Hypothyroidism) was common prior to the modern era.
From cretira, Grisson-Romance creature, from Latin creatus.
From cretine, French for alluvium (soil deposited by flowing water), an allusion to the affliction's suspected origin in inadequate soil.
AItOawn @ #147 (or whatever we're supposed to call this person) sez:
And, strangely enough, every single treatment for those afflicted with medical problems (I mean the sadly few treatments that actually work) is grounded in science rather than prayer to a god.
Praying over the afflicted is not mocking them, true.
It's far, far worse.
It is saying that this is god's plan for them, that this is the way things should be for them, that the world would somehow be diverging from the devine path if they had been born whole.
It is saying that they are exactly as god wants them.
Speaking personally, I'd rather suffer being mocked. At least that way, the people who are doing it know they are being cruel.
Judging from your comments here, I think the more likely thing is that they'd be laughing at you.
No.
Next question?
Try to impress us, Marry Brandybuck. You're the one who's putting on a display.
1-2-3-4 Cretins wanna hop some more!
4-5-6-7 All good cretins go to heaven!
Your concern is noted.
Hunh... rogue bold tag in my post at #151... odd.
OMD! Maybe Joseph was teh ghey? At least them he wouldn't have to feel cuckolded.
Nah, just have a look in the mirror, and you see what we are laughing at!
The cretin doesn't understand the difference between people who have trouble thinking and people who refuse to think. Quite possibly he/she/it falls into both groups.
Whenever I see people talking about God on tv, praising him, I always know they have not read the Bible. If they have, they choose to overlook any nonsense because they don't know that they can ask questions or disagree. One day, I hope humans will understand that if something doesn't sound right, you don't have to believe it, no matter how many idiots believe it. Ghosts are not real. Aliens are not real (not any we have seen anyway), god is not real, heaven is not real, hell is not real. All supernatural things are NOT REAL.
It is too bad that people do not know about Atheism. It is because I googled it, that I found people who think the bible and god are BS, educated scientific-minded people. Without that support and knowledge, I'd still be lost.
Still, in this day and age, it is hard to believe that people think a god in the sky impregnated a woman and then killed the son because the humans he made were bad. Life on this planet will not be normal until there are at least 90% atheists. But right now, I'd even be happy with a 60/40 ratio.