It's Christmas Eve. You're probably all busy with holiday preparations, getting together with family, making the traditional dinner, all that secular stuff that makes the day worth celebrating. I know that in the midst of this hustle and bustle you already don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm going to ask you to take a quiet, contemplative moment to think about the roots of this day, and don't believe in Jesus, too.
I know, I'm agreeing with all those crazy Bill O'Reillys and Donald Wildmons and other shrill Christian combatants in the war on Christmas who demand that you acknowledge the "holy" in holiday, but it's true: the midwinter seasonal holiday was created by people with the superstitious belief that supernatural transitions accompanied natural ones, and these few days are traditionally special because of a belief in their magical importance, and every religion attaches some godly event to the solstice season. It's why you'll get a day off on Christmas, which means it was good for something. So just pause, bow your head, and think about Jesus. And reject him.
Also consider God, the Holy Ghost, all the prophets and saints, the angels and demons, the Great Old Ones, any pantheon ever erected in heaven, all the ghosts and boojums, and deny them, every one. Think about all the pious, sanctimonious god-bothers who tell you to worship their dead gods on this day, and tell them, "No."
You're free.
Feels good, doesn't it? Remember the reason for the season, and be sure to go "Ho ho ho!" at it now and then, and let laughter fill your home.
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Great post! But you're just procrastinating starting the snowblower, aren't you?
Of course, the real reason for the season is the Earth's 23.5-degree axis tilt. Hohoho.
/me applauds
I agree with the first comment, both parts of it.
*grumble* They're still talking about snow here in TX.
OK, 23.4394°
Ho.
"It's Christmas Eve."
Only for another hour and 15 minutes here, then the big day arrives.
Yes, but "ponder it in your heart" until the holidays are over before telling the relatives.
Keep Thor in Thursday
REPENT! REPENT NOW GODLESS HEATHENS BEFORE HIS GREATNESS SMITES YOU WITH HIS HOLY NOODLE APPENDAGE AND BRIMSTONE MEATBALLS!
"I know that in the midst of this hustle and bustle you already don't believe in Santa Claus"
Well, if Santa isn't real, how come NORAD was able to track him last year? As I recall from basic training, USAF core values say "Integrity First," meaning we never lied, exaggerated, withheld data that would make us or our projects look bad, or engaged in any form of deception. So, I think NORAD can be trusted on the Santa issue.
Also, if Santa isn't real, how come the CIA detected a plot by the Group of the Martyr Ebenezer Scrooge to sabotage the annual courier flight of the government of the North Pole aka Santa's regime? (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB90/dubious-01a.pdf)
Jeez, what is it with clergy and appendages and balls?
(sorry, had to)
I wish I could be as blatantly free-thinking as you, but until then, as I make baby steps from behind "enemy" lines, this is refreshing.
I took care of the "reject Jesus" business many years ago. Like Charley (#6), however, I will be circumspect among my family members. In return for Mom's sumptuous turkey dinner, I will be meek and mild-mannered (unless unduly provoked, that is). After all, Mom & Dad no longer insist that I attend mass with them (my chuckling during sermons probably got distracting). Peace on earth and mutual toleration reigns. Probably. (I hope.)
My Christmas present to myself, is, instead, that I am unsubscribing from Pharyngula on my RSS reader. I'm as hardcore an empiricist and atheist as they come, but there's just too much sneering negativity always on here. It will be good to grab a volume of Sagan instead and warm myself with not just skeptical inquiry, but also a kindness that is much more welcome than endless abrasiveness.
No Santa? Don't tell Mr. Deity! (who is well back in form)
It's right about the free feeling - it's difficult to describe to someone who hasn't been really religious, but once you lose it it's surprising how many areas of your life suddenly feel lighter and cleaner. It's such a calm, satisfied, nice feeling not to be worried about living up to a galactic measuring stick all the time. Incredibly liberating.
Looks at calendar… Oh. It is.
Guess I don't pay much attention to these sorts of things.
</snark>
Well, there's an organic goose waiting on the porch (an advantage of the bout of bloody cold weather, I don't have to evacuate half the fridge), the bottle of port is already open (don't worry, there's more bottles for tomorrow), and WTF am I doing readingtyping this?
Free my arse! Christmas miracle...it's toooo big to fail Bwahahahahahaaaaaa!
http://moxnews.com/?p=110
agbdavis: Thanks for sharing your concern before disappearing. It is noted.
agbdavis, don't you think religion deserves to be mocked? And I do my anti-religious sneering positively. It's a good thing.
I thought the reason we get the day off was because in 1870 Congress passed a law that said, "Dec. 25, which some people call Christmas Day, will be a Federal Holiday." So we should celebrate the the fact that Dec. 25 is here, put big inflatable lighted 25s on our lawns, and revel in the twentyfivishness of the day.
25 25 25 25 25!!!
GODS... tch.. getting their pantheons erected at the least little thing.
I like my atheism with a little negativity. Its what we need until theres less pressure from religious groups. You won't want to miss all those nuts being roasted before new years will you?
It is, of course, complete positivity to loudly complain during your dramatic exit scene.
Vanharris, of course religion deserves to be mocked. I just don't want to listen to the mockery every day unless it has some sort of entertainment value as well. It seems cruel and boring to me. It's like sitting with my friends, making fun of someone we know and dislike. Yeah, sure, Bob may smell and be annoying or whatnot. But if we just did that all the time, it'd say more about us than it would about him.
I guess I just don't get much out of it, is what I'm saying, and it doesn't seem constructive. Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russel, or the contemporary Friendly Atheist manage to be just as uncompromising without being a harpy.
"It is, of course, complete positivity to loudly complain during your dramatic exit scene."
Not all negativity is a bad thing. In this case, I am trying to make constructive criticism. And some sneering snark is fun, that's why I read Wonkette.
You ask the impossible. People can reason why they are not Christians, and some may reason why they are Christians, but you can't reason yourself into being one or out of being one. Not really. For crying out loud any Calvinist knows that.
But, anyway, merry Christmas to all Pharyngulites. (lytes?)
Sven--Big Ben rocks, was there ever a doubt?
@8: Sheesh, what is it with people? The FSM has specifically requested that we not be sanctimonious twits while telling others of his noodly goodness. He doesn't care if people believe in him. He is not that vane. My friend I think you need to re-read the 8 I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts (#5 is my favorite). Then relax and enjoy Holiday. Ramen!
@13: As we say down here in San Antonio, Bueno Bye.
agbdavis- It's been real. Don't let the door smack you, and all that.
Me, I like some sneering with my atheism. There is a world full of religious nuts out there who aren't only a bunch of entertaining whackos. They pose a serious threat to everyone's liberty. I think that deserves constant commment and vigilance. YMMV.
Atheism. Needs more sneering.
@agbdavis #22
Except I'm pretty sure Bob doesn't want to (or have the power to) pass legislation demanding that everyone adhere to his smelliness and annoyance.
See the difference?
Hell Yeah! it feels excellent. Except I get Christians telling me I am very unhappy and lost. LMAO! It gets old. They say God will punish me and I am the one who is unhappy! I had one last night tell me God is love and I am too blind to see that and that I am very unhappy. They are praying for me. Truth is, when I studied Atheism a year or so ago, I was so relieved! I was finally free from guilt and worry. Now, I can enjoy life for what it is, one life, no afterlife. No choices on that for anyone. It is way better than living a guilt-ridden enslaved Christian life. Happy Christmas everyone!
well...but 500 passing yards will make a believer out of almost anybody
Oh hello Heddle, haven't seen you in a while. Merry Christmas.
You can always play along and reason why you don't believe in the pagan gods/spirits/whatever. Its not like we are short of superstitions to ignore now is it. Enough for everybody.
@RickR
" I think that deserves constant commment and vigilance."
I agree.
@nastasie
I see the difference. I think atheists and empiricists should be continual and outspoken advocates for rationality, and fight religious influence in government at every turn. But I just don't think you have to be a jerk all the time when you do it. Sometimes it's fun to mock others, but not all the time.
Honestly, folks, I'm not saying advocacy or forthrightness is wrong. I just don't think you have to sneer so negatively all the time as part of it.
agbdavis | December 24, 2009 10:03 AM:
Longtime listener, first time caller, right?
Indeed, first time ever commenting.
Noted.
Again.
and again and again...
Sorry, Sven, just replying to people. Fair enough. Ciao.
Just like every Flat Earther "knows" the shape of the planet. What's your point?
AGBDavis: Your first time commenting is to tell us you are going? Even though we didn't know about you before you said anything? And you signed up especially to do so? What an odd fellow.
Actually my main dislike of the year is "God is Love". No he's not he's god (as one of my fav the songs says). It doesn't even make sense...
I wonder, are we going to have a string of negative, sneering remarks about the level of sneering negativity on this site?
Honestly, I think agbdavis has a point. However, PZ's sneering negativity is just so damn funny I can't help but look away.
Merry Christmas, everyone!
Sorry, but I cannot bow my head and disavow Jesus Christ. But I am thankful that there will probably be a lot of closed abortion facilities around the world on December 25. The fact that Jesus was born even though his conception was unplanned by his parents is probably most properly remembered today by the closure, even if only for one day, of these places.
Remember, science tells us that human life begins at conception!
Merry Christmas. :)
Richard Eis:
Agreed. Don't these people ever read Romans 9:13?
Just celebrate the new year. That's what the Solstice is for, that's what Christmas was originally for and that's why New Years is supposedly for. We get all three days thanks to calendar drift. That's an actual astronomical event and thus perfect for secular celebration. Since we're already off, it doesn't really matter when you celebrate it, so Happy Solstice everyone. Or, as a badly spelled ice-cream cake I got for a friend once said: Happy Sotslice!
Ugh, why isn't my google nick showing up and instead some long URL? What did I do wrong?
Merry Newtonmas, everyone. And may all your motion happen in an inertial reference frame!
Why, yes, I'm a physics teacher. Why do you ask?
"In this case, I am trying to make constructive criticism."
Strange. I've never thought of whining petulance as all that constructive...
"Reason I loved, but Heddle I hated."
Now, be fair, PZ. Some of those saints probably existed, even if you deny they had any special meaning outside of their nearest and dearest. (Granted, denying God does a pretty good job of denying that these folks had a special connection to God. I suppose you could ascribe to them some kind of magic not related to the divine except in human minds, so better be safe and deny that.)
You can deny the Great Old Ones, but when the stars are right, your denial will be just as futile as the cries of those who worship them.
//Ia!
agbdavis @ 22;
You are entitled to your opinion, and if you feel that Pharyngulites are too caustic in their atheism then by all means seek more congenial godlessness elsewhere. All the same, don't you feel that your leaving post is a little preachy? Many people here have every reason to be hostile to religion and the religious having been on the receiving end of vitriolic bigotry for not conforming to the standards that many theists claim should be imposed upon all members of society in pursuit of the supposed will of a wholly evidence-free godhead.
To pick up on natasie's point @ 27, one assumes that the hypothetical Bob does not go around seeking to compel conformity to a bunch of oppressive and antideluvian fairy tales. He doesn't want to criminalize homosexuallity or advocate the state sanctioned murder of homosexuals for the 'crime' of their gender orientation. He doesn't decry as subhuman anyone who doesn't share his beliefs in every particular. He is not propagating irresponsible untruths about prophylatics that dirtectly contribute to the spread of AIDS ann thus to needless death and suffering along with uncontrolled population growth in the poorest regions of the world. He doesn't want to force women back to the status of second class citizen 'wombs-on-legs'. He is not hostile to the very process of scientific understanding. He is not trying to subvert the education of the young in order to mire another generation in pernicious delusion. He is not engaged in a crusade against the fundamental freedoms of conscience and thought of every other citizen of his society. (this is, of course, a truncated list. I could go on, but I feel that the point has been established.)
I would argue that there are far worse things than a little . . . unique bobdy odour and a tendency to be somewhat annoying. Mocking someone for these things is indeed uncalled for and mean spirited. But if the hypothetical Bob had a CV of irresponsibility and bigotry to match that listed above then a little mockery, and yes even sneering, is not only acceptable. It is positively required.
that's for sure!!!
that, not so much
It's called playa-hatin, and when combined with beer it is the #1 way that I like to pass the time. You should really try it.
Or do you sit around with your friends loading praise on people for whom you all have mutual admiration? Maybe listening to Prairie Home Companion and eating dry toast with milk? Sounds great. You should go do that now.
Now to the Airing of the Grievances. It's that time.
wait, I gotta get my pole up
And I post this with full awareness of the juvenile double-entendre.
Gregory Greenwood:
All these things are true, however, I can't help but feel, that there's a very large number of religious (nominally?) people all over that don't support any of the things you pointed out yet would still feel some measure of slight at certain kinds of caustic statements certainly around the holidays.
I have mixed feelings about the whole thing and I am having trouble putting into words the point I am trying to get across, I guess I'll just relate an anecdote.
This past Thanksgiving, my brothers and I got into some heated philosophical / religious conversation at the dinner table. I can't remember which one of my sneering, negative remarks was the subject of something else that was said, but in any case, one of my brothers (nominally religious) said something rather atheistic in reply. I snapped back, "Oh? So why is it that I am chastised for my outright atheism?" His wife chimed in (and shut me up), "Maybe it's because the rest of us are just lukewarm about our atheism."
I was really at a loss to reply, however, I still think that (as Harris says) the moderates give some measure of comfort to the crazies, then again, it's not so cut and dry.
That said, is it really so terrible to portray some kind of reverence for "religious tradition" during the holidays? Does anyone get my meaning?
@9 As further proof of the existence of Santa Claus I observe that , in Canada, he has his own postal code. It is H0H OH0.
I just want to make sure we remember the forefather of this day, Saturnalia. Without it, there really is no reason to celebrate the 25th day of the 12th month.
Your concern is noted.
It sounds like your getting yourself smug self-superiority for Christmas. Enjoy it while it lasts. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
Very minor quibble: I'd suggest specifying that we reject the very idea of an immortal voyeuristic Jesus'n'pals. Just saying "we reject them" leaves open that tired old loophole for god-botherers to say "A-ha! So by rejecting them, you tacitly admit that they do exist! You just hate Jesus/Allah/Ameratsu, etc. because you want to live in sin! Blargblargblargblarg and other triumphantly disapproving noises!" I've heard that too often.
Erm, not really. Unless you think one cell equals one human, so every skin cell is bless-ed. Or you have to say that there is no beginning...the sperm was alive (and wiggly) and then before that and before that. Its all very darwinian.
See #20. I got a time-machine this christmas. Why did I open it early? It's Quantum!!!
Christmas Eve is here again. We're on our way to the IMAX to see Avatar; later we'll have music and feasting at our house. We consist of 3 atheists, 1 agnostic, 1 pagan, and two devout Christians. We'll enjoy the Solstice tree and admire the hand-crafted creche, go outside to burn a yule log, and drink Tom and Jerry's.
So, Happy Darwinmas, Festive Solstice, and Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night!
heddle @ 24;
'You ask the impossible. People can reason why they are not Christians, and some may reason why they are Christians, but you can't reason yourself into being one or out of being one. Not really. For crying out loud any Calvinist knows that.'
I am not trying to antagonise you here heddle, but I would argue that many people do come to atheism by a process of reasoned thought. Many atheists were born into religious families and were uncritically exposed to the religion of their parents throughout their formative years. Once they became adults, they came to the realisation that the fact is that contemporary science, if presented accurately and without any agenda, simply does not support the existence of any deity.
Once a person arrives at this realisation, and assuming that their logical faculties are not impaired, then some experience of doubt is inevitable. At this point the person in question must decide which is more important to them; the scientific process and that which it illumiates about the universe, or their religion. The choice is one between strict materialist rationality and a belief system that, by its very nature, priviliges uncritical faith over reason. The choice of religion is not born of strict rationality (even though this choice may have benefits that are understandable to one of a rational bent in terms of acceptance within ones peer group and maintainence of a comforting and long established worldview). It is an expression of a lifestyle preference irrespective of the empiracle data. The choice to abandon religion is not always rational either, but I feel that it is wrong to imply that it is impossible to make a decision to pursue a life without god that is based upon reason.
As for Calvinist pre-determinism, I do not think you will find many Pharyngulites who are prepared to go along with that particular worldview. Not believing in gods normally goes hand in hand with not believing in destiny, fate, kharma or any variation thereof.
@ #39 grantjohndexter:
"The fact that Jesus was born..."
Factz? I can has factz? Pleeze sho me morr.
only don't forget to include the evidence for your claims.
If it wasn't demanded of me, no it wouldn't be so terrible.
No gods bless us, everyone!
The ONLY evidence of Jesus at all is hearsay. Only in christian writing at that. Not a single historian of his time even mentions him as a footnote. Wierd.
This year should be GREAT! My Jesus-loving stepsister is having fun in Southern California with her equally pious boyfriend, so tomorrow will be nice and safe! I just hide in a corner and don't speak usually. I'm only sad because she won't get to see the Chelsea Handler and "Evolution for Everyone" books I got my other, more awesome, stepsister. :D
Uppity, militant, fundamentalist, smug, hateful, sneering, negative, and abrasive now is it? Well, Sniny Fucking Squidmas to you, agbdavis!
I've got my Jeezus shredder out and a ball of steel wool and will be grating away moldy old beliefs and scraping religious platitudes bare for the rest of the year.
tsg:
Well, my family is pretty progressive in that regard, there's not much forcing going on in any case. There's often a good deal of teasing back and forth about the whole thing and any of the "religous" folks in my family are either nominally religious, aren't really sure what they believe, or just never gave it any real thought.
Needless to say, they don't seem to be bothered by my atheism at all, except if I really push the whole no life after death thing or openly mock Jesus, and that sometimes makes my mom cry, so naturally I try to be diplomatic about that one.
[T]hink about Jesus. And reject him.
He failed Quality Control.
#53:
I don't get your meaning. I don't have reverence for any traditions, nor do I portray it on T.V.
53 (I do not know what to call you. Sorry);
'All these things are true, however, I can't help but feel, that there's a very large number of religious (nominally?) people all over that don't support any of the things you pointed out yet would still feel some measure of slight at certain kinds of caustic statements certainly around the holidays.'
I was specifically talking about the hardliners. The most caustic remarks are usually reserved for the real crazies, we do not tend to go for the throat with moderate believers. If they are still offended by the statements of the Pharyngulites then that is unfortunate, but it is not our responsibility to not give offence. Free speech is simply more important. The sentiment expressed by Voltaire (apologies for the inaccurate butchering of the quote);
"I may not agree with what you say, but I would defend unto the death your right to say it"
Does not work so well if you add the caveat "Just so long as you don't offend anyone. That would just be mean."
'This past Thanksgiving, my brothers and I got into some heated philosophical / religious conversation at the dinner table. I can't remember which one of my sneering, negative remarks was the subject of something else that was said, but in any case, one of my brothers (nominally religious) said something rather atheistic in reply. I snapped back, "Oh? So why is it that I am chastised for my outright atheism?" His wife chimed in (and shut me up), "Maybe it's because the rest of us are just lukewarm about our atheism."'
With all due respect to your sister in law, this sounds like a variation on the idea that those atheists who do not have the good form to just shut up and pretend they do not exist are somehow 'fundamentalists' or 'extremists'. You were fully entitled to ask why such double standards were being applied to you. You have a choice. Either avoid the topic for the sake of a quiet life, or talk to your family and ask them to accept you 'warts and all', so to speak. If your atheism is a hard-held worldview, then you have every right to expect them to extend the same respect to your beliefs that they seem to demand that you should extend to theirs'.
'That said, is it really so terrible to portray some kind of reverence for "religious tradition" during the holidays? Does anyone get my meaning?'
I am sorry, but I choose not to make a hypocrite of myself during this season anymore than I would any other. I do not believe in god. I do not believe that the evidence-free belief systems of others should be afforded uncritical 'reverence' because this too often translates to placing those beliefs above discussion or debate on some kind of pious pedestal, from which those unassailable values may be used to justify maintaining the old inequities as experienced by any who are insufficiently 'godly'. I may choose to tactfully avoid the topic where appropriate, but I chose some years ago to not bow and scrape to the religious and also not to lie about my world view if I am asked a direct question.
If that makes me the Christmas Grouch, then so be it.
I saw it in 3-D on a 40+ foot IMAX screen. Loved every minute of it.
Christmas is Too Big to fail!
#67
That's nice for you. A lot of us aren't so lucky.
I do not think heddle is under any such misconception.
"Uppity, militant, fundamentalist, smug, hateful, sneering, negative, and abrasive now is it? Well, Sniny Fucking Squidmas to you, agbdavis!"
LOL
Sniny? what is this sniny??
Not Voltaire, but Voltaireish:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_Beatrice_Hall
Mr. T:
Mainly I was just talking about going to church to appease the family members and maybe bowing my head once a year and taking a break from making fun of my father for his belief in a "sky fairy." That kind of thing.
tsg:
I completely understand.
Gregory Greenword:
I have posted before as "zeroangel" (before the registration). Considering my google thing I got going on, "google chimp" works too.
Good post, I'll give it some thought, I am still going to try and avoiding making my mom cry, of course. As you say:
Thank you!
Aratina Cage @ 66;
'Uppity, militant, fundamentalist, smug, hateful, sneering, negative, and abrasive now is it? Well, Sniny F***ing Squidmas to you, agbdavis!
I've got my Jeezus shredder out and a ball of steel wool and will be grating away moldy old beliefs and scraping religious platitudes bare for the rest of the year.'
You have compressed the core sentiment from my last couple of quotes into one, um, I think I will say 'pithy' (yes, pithy is a good word. Rather more 'pithy' than I would have the courage to post), statement.
I applaud your economy of verbiage.
I watched Avatar last Saturday (Not in 3D, sadly). I also loved the film. I have been a massive, geeky James Cameron Fan every since T2 and Aliens
I do have one concern though, and I would like to ask my fellow Pharyngulites for advice.
Is it wrong to find a CG, 10 foot tall blue alien woman kind of hot? If so, should I seek therapy? The sexy voice doesn't help, but at least that actually belongs to a real, flesh and blood actress. Whom I also find hot, in case there was any confusion.
(Gaaargh! I objectified women by using the term 'hot' to mean physically attractive. Twice! But one is only a computer generated image of a fictional alien species. Is it OK to do that? If not I'll just pass it off as being ironic in a post-modern kind of way. Yeah, that'll work.)
I wonder how long it will be before Avatar inspired CG Pr0n starts popping up all over the interwebs...
SC OM @ 76;
Oh, I didn't realize that that quote was not actually from Voltaire. You learn a new thing every day. Thanks for the information, SC.
"but I'm going to ask you to take a quiet, contemplative moment to think about the roots of this day, and don't believe in Jesus, either.
There. Fixed.
Reason for the season? Saturnalia Felix Pharyngulenses omnibus!!!
Have a good one.
You guys have a great day off! Just leave the car keys at home if, like me, you're going to indulge in Christmas spirits, and take a taxi instead.
@13: Hey, with all the grief laid upon us by religious folks (including but not limited to consigning us to eternal hellfire), we have a right to sneer at them now and then. Lighten up.
OK, I found the sniny thread:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/06/oooh_shiny_1.php
But...I still don't get it. or is there nothing to get?
Sniny (complete with crocoducks).
Listen folks, I have never sneered at a religious person with whom I am acquainted in my life. As Aronra says, there is a big difference between believing things that might be true, like the existence of a god, and believing in things that absolutely are not true, such as a 6000-year-old universe.
I do, and will sneer at those who publicly spout arrant nonsense, those who tell lies, and those who refuse to even look at reasons why the lies they have been told (and that they repeat with such glee in places like this) are, in fact, lies.
Such as:
No. Science tells us that life began more than 3.5 billion years ago. It started ending very shortly after that. Life does not begin at conception. The cells that join to create a new zygote are already alive. Very frequently the zygote does not live long enough to develop into a fetus, much less a viable infant. Nothing new about that. Most abortions are natural (i.e. caused by God, if you believe in such things). A tiny fraction of a percent are deliberately caused by a human.
I do believe, however, that abortion is a lousy method of birth control.
(sneer) So, instead of wasting everyone's time with your repeating of that particular lie, why don't you get your panties out of their wad and work to improve contraception methods. That is how to decrease the number of medical abortions in the world. I mean if that is what you really want. Get on, now. Stop standing around complaining and get to work.
(/sneer)
@Sven DiMilo & Richard Eis
Science does tell us that human life begins at conception. At conception we have a single cell. That single cell is human. It's also alive. Do you really want to argue this? Sure, that one cell might be more than one person. So? :)
@creating trons
Yes, sorry to disappoint, but I believe Jesus was born. I know atheists don't like Christmas because it celebrates a birth rather than an abortion, but, hey .. you can't win 'em all. :)
Merry Christmas, all.
Sniny is a Pharyngulism, an in-joke that was unintentionally created by the tentacled Lesser Demon himself when he misspelled "shiny".
No. It wouldn't be wrong to feel that way about one of the male variety either. I think that's how Cameron would have wanted it.
grantjohndexter @ 86: "Science does tell us that human life begins at conception. At conception we have a single cell. That single cell is human. It's also alive. Do you really want to argue this? Sure, that one cell might be more than one person. So? :)"
So, how many people did you kill the last time you blew your nose?
You lost a lot of cells, many of them human.
The Real Santa Claus
The Christmas spirit is embodied by those who selflessly sacrifice their time, energy, safety and lives so that we may enjoy ours.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXtWIcMLSXM
@otrame
Merry Christmas, young man. Put a smile on your face. :)
A human life does indeed begin at conception. Perhaps you're right and I may have over stated my case. How's this for an acceptable revision:
Science tells us that at conception there is a cell that is alive and human. The notion that each individual's life began when they were conceived is supported by science.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to say, "science tells us that life begins at conception", but perhaps your admonition has reminded us all that there is more to life than science. :)
Merry Christmas.
@ #86 grantjohndexter
"Yes, sorry to disappoint, but I believe Jesus was born."
I'm glad you cleared that up. You do understand that believing something to be true (or a fact) does not make it so?
There is a big difference.
@Ray.
That's a pretty weird thing to say. :)
None, is my answer. I don't believe all cells are people. :)
Merry Christmas.
I don't call that "reverence". That's more along the lines of "not being an asshole". However, I don't revere traditions, and particularly not religious ones that I don't believe.
I will likely go to church when I visit my family this weekend. Sometimes it's easier to go with the flow. "Must float like a leaf on the river of life ... and kill old lady", if you like.
I generally don't make fun of my father's (or my mother's) beliefs; I guess because as much as I respect him, he's so firmly entrenched in his superstitions that I don't see it as an achievable goal. When he talks about shit like the coming apocalypse in 2012, I try to explain very clearly how utterly ridiculous it is. I doubt this will come up while we're opening presents.
H.L. Mencken: "One horse-laugh is worth ten thousand syllogisms. It is not only more effective; it is also vastly more intelligent."
T. Jefferson: "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."
aratina cage
Thanx. now I'll have to remember to use it in a sentence.
@creating trons - Oh, sure. I know believing something doesn't make it a fact. :)
Merry Christmas.
Well, you certainly aren't going to win that one. I personally love Christmas. I don't need to believe that Jesus (if he actually existed) was a god to enjoy a state-funded excuse to spend time with my family, give and get presets, etc.
Hey, how is that research on a safe, inexpensive, and reliable method of contraception coming?
grantjohndexter
You've clearly missed the relevant train of relevance.
And why would Jesus' conception be an "accident"?
Doesn't seem all that consistent.
I'm playing wow tonight with friends.
My "christmas" shopping contained of getting 2 frozen pizzas and a bottle of diet coke.
The 22nd i spend some time thinking how marvelous the universe is, as our days are now becoming longer again due to the earth's rotation, the moon, the slight tilt and all that nifty jazz.
Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be here today.
- Lawrence Krauss
grantjohndexter
good. so would you admit that there are no factual evidence for the birth and/or life of Jesus?
grantjohndexter:
Asshole.
Oh, sorry, does a smiley make it okay?
Well, :) then.
GJD:
Actually, we (that maelstrom of pork-loving demons commonly known as Legion) love christmas. What with the music, the lights, and the gifts... what's not to love?
As for Jesus, well given that he was a god who raped an under-aged girl/who also happened to be his mother, so the he could become his own father...
Well, from a demons perspective, he's our kind of guy.
@otrame - I'm glad to hear you love Christmas. I know you don't need to believe in Jesus to enjoy time with your family and exchange presents. You can do that any time you like, though, you know? :)
Your second question is pretty weird. Haven't you heard of condoms? They're, what, 90% reliable if used correctly, right?
@Peapoh - What relevant train of relevance have I missed?
Jesus' conception wasn't an "accident". Why would you suggest it was?
Merry Christmas. :)
I would say yes, but then i've seen watchmen ;) Big and blue is in this season clearly.
I believe Jesus existed. I just don't think he was magical. I'm sure there was "someone" called Jesus around at that time. Prophets were ten a penny back then anyway. Whats the big deal.
Oh, shepherds and magi and gifts and magic stars? ummm not so much.
Sometimes abortion is necessary. That doesn't make it good or atheistic. We just don't think life is black and white.
Life is continuous. That is what the science says. The rest is just human definitions and labels.
There ought to be a Pharyngula FAQ link to answer questions like "Sniny?"
Not that PZ doesn't have anything else to do or anything. :)
aratina cage @ 87;
'No. It wouldn't be wrong to feel that way about one of the male variety either. I think that's how Cameron would have wanted it.'
Thank you. I now feel validated.
@creating trons - No evidence for the life of Jesus? :rotfl:
You're kidding, right?
@dinkum - I've come to learn that a little smiley gets you a long way. :)
Not so far this time though, huh? :|
grantjohndexter:
Fixed.
Remember folks: non sequiturs about abortion are the reason for the season.
Here come the weenies who can't exchange holiday greetings without emitting high piercing whines about ~aBORRRtion~ and someone accused us of "sneering negativity"? Go incubate yourselves, the both a' ya.
However. PZ. No. It's safe to say there are no eternal heckfire boogiepersons, gawds, angels
WHATTHEBLOODYFUCK IS IT WITH ANNE RICE??? Parade "Magazine,"comes with the Sunday paper, here's a fluffy by AR about "Why We Need Angels." What, "Why We Need Vampires" got to scawwy for her???
'Scuse me. Where was I? Oh yeah. But there are most certainly boojums. Seen 'em with my own eyes, I have. In fact there are a couple growing in Ruth Bancroft's garden a few miles east of me right now. Lots more in Baja California where they're native, of course.
Ron Sullivan
http://toad.faultline.org
@grantabunchofnamessmashedtogether
Relevance in terms of why are fetuses your greatest concern on this day? Seems odd considering the amount of sentient babies, children, and adults that are suffering. Clearly you're here just to be contrary.
And that was my bad. I misinterpreted your little diatribe about Jesus' fetal state being unplanned by his parents...which is weird nonetheless but not what you said exactly.
Hey Antiochus Epimanes: you riffin on my handle? We going to go at this like the Bobsy Twins, or what? Anyway, I can see this having both good and bad implications:
Good: We can British Bulldog 'em into submission.
Bad: We disagree, in which case, we must be clear about the source of orthographical variation, or we come off looking schizo.
Sound reasonable, my doppleganger?
Nope. Other than the Bible, which is transparently a bunch of mythology, there is no evidence that Jesus was a real, historical person. Do you have evidence, or would you simply prefer to assert it without evidence?
grantjohndexter
no I'm not kidding. and don't try trotting out some sniny-ass bible pages either.
@AC - see, I did it!
Don't you people have something to do. I mean like eating, drinking, chatting, joking, laughing and all these things people do in meatspace?
Anyway, good post PZ and I really don't understand why some take it as negative. For me it feels just the contrary. Whatever...
Anyway, Felices Fiestas a todos amigos, y los otros también.
But, but, but, SWOTI!!!1!
El Guerrero del Interfaz:
Damn straight. We've got a cut-up and deboned turkey marinating in a sea salt brine. He'll be going into the smoker for a few hours shortly.
Heathens Greetings all, and a Rational New Year!
#113 El Guerrero:
"I mean like eating, drinking, chatting, joking, laughing and all these things people do in meatspace?"
I am doing all that, and I'm also trying to catch my first troll. I womder if I can make bacon from troll belly?
@Peapoh - sentient babies are killed by the garbage can full. Society at large already condemns the killing of born people. I just go a few months earlier as well. Did you know abortion encourages rapists?
I might well be a bit contrary, but who knows, perhaps I'll say something someone will agree with. I've agreed with a few things you guys have said. Do you think you could put up with an alternative opinion for the sake of the season or something? :)
@Mr T - So I'm not allowed to present the evidence for Christ's existence because you think the bible is all mythology? Doesn't sound like a very reasonable sort of restriction for you to impose. I'd prefer to discuss something where you were going to allow me to enter into the discussion.
Merry Christmas. :)
Go ahead an present some evidence. The Bible isn't evidence that Jesus existed any more than the Iliad is evidence that Achilles existed.
grantjohndexter @ 86;
'I know atheists don't like Christmas because it celebrates a birth rather than an abortion, but, hey .. you can't win 'em all. :)'
I cannot speak for my fellow Pharyngulites, but I for one do not celebrate the process of abortion itself. I do, however, see it as an absolute social necessity if woman are going to maintain any biological autonomy or reproductive agency in our society.
If abortion is outlawed, then you are placing the rights of a nascent human life over those of a fully established citizen. What is more, this burden is not born equally by both genders. It would specifically affect women. You would have a situation where the (still predominantly patriachal) state would effectively be able to tell a woman that once she is pregnant here body is no longer her own. That her status as a citizen and a human being is contingent upon her possession of an invitro fetus or lack thereof, and should she be pregnant then she effectively instantly becomes a second class citizen. I find this scenario abhorant and fundamentally unjust.
As to your point about human life beginning at conception, what you have at conception is a single fused cell. While this cell is genetically distinct from its parents, it is but one cell and is not really comparable to a fully fledged human being. A little later you have a ball of non-differentiated cells that I believe is called a morula (it has been a while since A level biology, if I am wrong I am sure a more qualified Pharyngulite will correct me). This is still not really equivalent to a human or even an advanced stage foetus. If one cell is human, then why not extend the logic further back? Is not every spermatazoa and every ovum also a nascent life? Every day a man's body re-absorbs thousands of sperm, does that mean that by not having unprotected sex as often as humanly possible every man commits genocide by default daily? Is every woman's period a murder?
One can have concerns over embryology without being religious. I confess to a few concerns over the regulation of embryonic stem cell research, not because of any imperative from a putative god, but because I am concerned that once we start directly commodifying human tissues we may be opening somewhat of a Pandora's Box from a humanist point of view.
Proper regulation is vital, and in some parts of the world those regulations are sorely lacking. The problem is that any serious debate on these issues is almost unavoidably hijacked by religious groups who tend to conflate genuine issues of scientific ethics with religious convictions based on scripture written millennia ago by people who could not even conceive of stem cell technology or any modern medicine. This serves only to obstruct the genuine issues. While I may have some concerns over the technology that also worries theists for different reasons, this does not place me on the same side of the debate.
@ Peapoh # 109
"@grantabunchofnamessmashedtogether"
haha
I think you got him to change his nym. see Stripe @ 117
Stripe: "So I'm not allowed to present the evidence for Christ's existence because you think the bible is all mythology?"
so you think the bible is all true?
@MrT - I don't think it'd do you any good for me to present what you consider mythology as evidence. How about this. We'll stick with the fact that you don't believe Jesus lived and I believe He is God.
Deal?
Merry Christmas. :)
Did you know abortion encourages rapists?
Do you have any evidence to back this claim or are you just trying to see what we'll believe on your authority alone?
So I'm not allowed to present the evidence for Christ's existence because you think the bible is all mythology?
Of course not (at least not as far as I'm concerned-I'm not the person addressed.) You can get around the restiction one of two ways: 1. Present external evidence. Something that does not depend on the Bible to determine its veracity. 2. Present evidence that the Bible is trustworthy as a source and make the argument that you should be allowed to use it as a primary source. Though you'll still need to find outside evidence to make it convincing.
Stripe -- like the character in Gremlins? A little demonic don't you think? ;)
Only if we can submit Homer's Odyssey as proof of the existence of Poseidon. Deal?
As for the bible, it's not all mythology. We have it on good authority that the stuff in there about people breathing air, drinking water, and catching fish -- that's all be verified by science. See how we can agree on things.
@Stripe
"We'll stick with the fact that you don't believe Jesus lived and I believe He is God."
I thought religites believed God is God, and that Jesus is God's son?
I agree that there is too much naked sneering going on around here! We need to add a good capering to make it complete.
Grantjohndexter: I'm glad we could agree that cells don't make human beings =)
I confess to a few concerns over the regulation of embryonic stem cell research... because I am concerned that once we start directly commodifying human tissues we may be opening somewhat of a Pandora's Box from a humanist point of view.
I don't know whether this will ease your mind or make you more apprehensive, but...it's too late. This one's already lost. You can buy altered human tissue (aka cell lines) from ATCC for $200 a vial. Or primary human tissue, malignant or normal, for somewhat more from a number of suppliers. Not to mention organ, blood, and bone marrow transplant--the donors aren't paid but the people who process the tissue certainly are. Human tissue is thoroughly commodified and stopping stem cell research won't change that.
grantjohndexter:
Not when the rest of your arse-gravy offerings clearly show you to be an ignorant, sanctimonious little prick.
Yep, you confirm you are a delusional fool, and have nothing cogent to say. There is no evidence for Jebus. You can keep lying to yourself, but quit trying to lie to us about non-existent evidence. Keep your religion and religious ideas like ID private, like anything you should be ashamed of.
Please! Why spend so much time sneering at the religious on this 'appy occasion?
Well, obviously because they spend so much time sneering at us. Hell, they can't even wish us a happy holidays without sneaking in some bullshit political bait. So I'll be sure to reject Jesus extra hard this year.
Not like he ever did anything for me. What, the whole dying and coming back to life thing? Pfft, what a drama queen. And hundreds of years before I was even born too, so that all I get out of it are the weepy testimonials of an unending parade of very very dull people about it.
Jesus, thbbt. Whatever.
@Rey Fox # 129
"Please! Why spend so much time sneering at the religious on this 'appy occasion?"
you are so right. why am I wasting my party time on this idiot?
I hope you all have a wonderful holiday season this year.
Trey
Hi, Katkinkate here. Well it's Xmas here in Australia. It's almost 4.30 in the morning and I'm enjoying one of the main reasons I like Xmas and Easter, despite not being into the religious/ritualistic aspects. I live on a major highway in Brisbane. For 363 days a year a steady stream of semi-trailers thunder their way past my bedroom at all hours of the day and night and on this morning all I hear is an occasional car. Now the birds are waking up and the dawn chorus is ringing out over the truckless quiet and the sky is lighting up. Best time of day ever! Merry Christmas everybody.
Stripe @ 117;
'Did you know abortion encourages rapists?'
Forgive me Stripe, but I could have sworn that you have just used the fact that some violent male criminals commit vile sexual assault and rape against innocent women as a justification for . . . taking rights away from women. Exactly how does removing a vital component of a woman's reproductive agency and personal sovereignty help prevent rape? It seems to add insult to truly horrific injury to tell a woman that not only has she been raped, but now the state will effectively rape her again by forcing her to have a child conceived in that unwilling union.
Then there is also the fact that outlawing abortion will force many women into going to backstreet abortionists who will likely not be properly qualified and who will not maintain standards of hygeine or aftercare. As a direct result, vulnerable women will die, most likely in agony. Is this really a scenario that you would be happy with? Of course, there are those who would say that a woman who visits an abortionist deserves such a fate as an expression of the approbium of a 'loving' god. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are not such an individual.
Well, I guess you're right: it wouldn't do me any good. It wouldn't do you any good either, as far as actually supporting your claim that there is evidence. Reality doesn't care what you or I believe. If you expect me to buy into post-modernism just so you can continue an off-topic rant about abortions, then no I don't accept the deal.
Honestly, I couldn't care less whether Jesus was a real person. Even if he were, there is no reason to believe Mary was impregnated by some universe-creating ghost, that Jesus is divine, that he performed miracles, or that he resurrected from the dead. To use your earlier line of argument, "science tells us that supernatural hocus pocus has never been observed."
So I'm not allowed to present the evidence for Christ's existence because you think the bible is all mythology? Doesn't sound like a very reasonable sort of restriction for you to impose. I'd prefer to discuss something where you were going to allow me to enter into the discussion.
You need to do better than to use circular logic.
The bible claims to be true.
It is in the bible.
Therefore what is in the bible is true.
You want to have an argument where what you state is not open to debate. That is the essence of being unreasonable.
Also, please explain how abortions encourage rapists. I really want to see the logic behind this.
@Gregory Greenwood - Long post, dude. It's Christmas, dont'cha'know. :)
Needless to say, I did not say you (atheists) celebrate abortion. At least, not explicitly. :)
I notice you think abortion is necessary with an "if". I don't think there are any conditions under which one may gas Jews, own and sell black people or kill unborn children. Women maintaining biological autonomy or reproductive agency in our society doesn't sound like anything that might justify killing children.
If abortion is outlawed, then the rights of all human beings are put on the same level with respect to whether they may be killed on demand. The state would not be able to tell a woman that once she is pregnant her body is no longer her own. That's just ridiculous. Why would you say such a thing?
I know that conception there is a single fused cell. I know it is genetically distinct from its parents and I know it is a lot smaller than a fully grown human being. I know it takes a long time for a newly conceived person to grow into a full grown man. I don't consider every spermatozoa and every ovum a human being. Can you give me any good reason why I should?
You agree that fully grown people are human beings. Why do you not extend that back to when that person was conceived?
Regulation over what people may be killed is evil. Would you regulate how many black people we were allowed to own 200 years ago? Would you regulate the means by which Jews could be executed in WWII Germany?
@creating trons - I think the bible is an accurate portrayal of history. It's also a lot more than that. :)
Merry Christmas.
Abortion encourages rapists? You guys don't know that?
Think about it - it's not pleasant, but it's pretty simple to understand. Being able to abort the evidence of a crime is great incentive to commit the crime.
@Stripe
Not at all, you just have to show the bible is true first.
Stripe, you do realize that a large percentage of fertilized eggs end up being spontantiously aborted by the mother's body.
Damn but the female body is the largest killing field known.
I, too, am leaving Pharyngula and its abrasiveness and -- what was it? Oh, yeah, sneering negativity.
But only for the next 36 hours or so.
Then I'll be back for more of PZ, Brother Smoggy, Digital Cuttlefish, and the occasional troll roast. And make my occasional modest contributions now and then. A fella can only take so much comfort and joy, y'know.
Meanwhile, Happy Monkey, Merry Christmas, etc., etc. Save some burnt goat for me!
Because it isn't a baby until it is born and breathing on its own. What part of that happening don't your understand? At that point, the little person won't die if mommy dies. It is not longer a parasite to mommy. You ignore the reality of the situation. Which is why we ignore you. You are a delusional fool.
Stripe - smileys don't make your hatred any easier to swallow.
As for meatspace, I'm here to commune with my fellow Pharyngulites. Avoiding the chores I still have to do today is just a bonus.
I should point out to Stripe that we weren't the ones who brought up abortion on this thread...at this happy occasion.
Slapping on a merry christmas here is like putting "I'll pray for you" at the bottom of ranting emails to PZ.
Dianne @ 127;
I never said that we should stop embryonic stem cell research, merely that we need to ensure that the regulation of the technology is sufficiently strong to prevent abuse, and that we should try to get those countries that still lack any biotech legislation to put some on the books.
The degree of trade in human tissue is indeed disturbing. I hadn't realised that it was so readily available. I assume some kind of licence is required to sell and possess these tissue products?
I just want to point out that I am not some kind of backward biotech luddite. I believe that stem cell research (and as far as I know most of this research still has to be embryonic stem cell research due to limitations in the technology) will be of vital importance in many fields of life saving and life enhancing medicine for the forseeable future. It just so happens that I think that this technology is too important for us to risk its abuse at the hands of those who preach the kind of woo-soaked, pseudoscience quackery that depicts current stem cell technology as a cure all wonder treatment for everything from baldness to death itself.
Happy holidays!
Hail Saturn!
Stripe:
Astounding. Is that what rape kits are for? Just checking for a fetus, since that's the only evidence of a rape?
Stripe, have you always been a moronic motherfucker, or is it a recent career move?
Actually no. I believe there is no evidence for such an assertion. I do believe that men rape for reasons other than their ability to have their product of their crime aborted.
What a sick and unpleasant thing to assert.
Posted by: agbdavis @ 22 "Vanharris, of course religion deserves to be mocked. I just don't want to listen to the mockery every day unless it has some sort of entertainment value as well. It seems cruel and boring to me."
So, only read Pharyngula once a week then. No-one's forcing you to come here every day. No-one is forcing you to read everything thats sent to your RSS reader every day either. Go read something else or go do something fun and sweeten your disposition. Pat a kitten.
Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula:
Um...WHAT!?!
I know it takes a long time for a newly conceived person to grow into a full grown man.
That's a very telling statement. The conceived "person" is going to grow up to be a "man". And therefore more important than the currently living, breathing, thinking, XX bearing person who is incubating it, perhaps? Scratch an anti-choicer and you'll find a sexist nearly every time.
I don't consider every spermatozoa and every ovum a human being. Can you give me any good reason why I should?
You shouldn't. But there is no argument for calling them a human being after they merge that could not be made before they merge as well: sperm and oocytes are genetically unique, living, and capable of developing into a full person under the right circumstances...they just need one very simple step more than a just conceived blastulocyte...and it's one of the easier ones of the whole process.
@Dianne - What evidence would you accept for the existence of Christ other than scripture?
@creating trons - I believe Jesus is God's son. I also believe that sons are of a nature with their fathers. Thus Jesus is God. It's a little confusing at first, but it makes pretty good sense once you think about it a little. :)
@Roberth - Do I know you? :)
@Gregory Greenwood - No person has the right to kill an unborn child. A woman's "reproductive agency and personal sovereignty" does not include the right to kill her own child.
The state will not force her to have a child conceived in rape. It will only outlaw the execution of the innocent party.
Outlawing abortion is right because it protects innocent people. That some would seek to break the law is no reason to disestablish the law. We do not regulate theft because without legal theft some people might get hurt doing it against the law. Neither is the argument from consequence a rational one in this case.
OT:
An amusing fictional follow-up to the footage of the coconut-carrying octopodes from the other week:
http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=58525
WTF? It's the woman who gets the abortion. It's the man who did the rape. Why would the victim, the women, want to destroy the evidence?
And in any case, you don't need a fetus or baby to prove there was a rape. If you did, then by the above strange “logic”, forced sexual intercouse is rape only if it results in a fetus/baby. Which is bateshit insane, it's the non-consenual act that is the rape, regardless of the outcome nine months later.
Seconded....What The FUCK!!!!
The woman is hiding the rape she committed by dropping a dead baby on her doctors floor?
The comment system seems to be spontaneously aborting the organization of my comments -- either that or it's the rancid stench of troll meat screwing up the system (We're looking at you Striper).
Anyway, everything after 'Jeebus' in comment #148 should be out of the quote box.
That's it. I got a turkey to cook.
Legion out.
Actual evidence, as opposed to pretend evidence that could be debunked by a five-year-old child. What evidence would you accept for the existence of Achilles other than Greek mythology?
Contradict yourself much? If she is not forced (by law) to have the child and is not allowed (by law) to abort it, then what other option is there?
What evidence would you accept for the existence of Christ other than scripture?
Mention of Jesus in other contemporary writings, with first hand accounts. (For example, letters home from a Roman soldier saying, "I heard this crazy preacher in the market. Someone said his name was Jesu bin Joseph or something like that...he actually kind of made sense.") Or physical evidence such as a grave, writing by Jesus or close associates...Basically, the same kind of evidence I'd like to have for the existence or non-existence of Tiberius Claudius or Comrade Oglivy.
Any evidence from outside of the babble. You see, you have idjit circular reasoning in that the scripture proves god, and god proves the scriptures. We break that circular reasoning by requiring conclusive physical evidence for your deity, then conclusive physical and historical evidence that the babble isn't a work of fiction. So, you have a problem. Start with your deity, as you don't have your scriptures. They a myths until proven otherwise. Welcome to rationality.
Hm.
Problem with that is that all the reasoning I've seen from people for why they are Christian has been completely unreasonable.
Stripper:
We're so sorry, but we could not let this comment pass unmolested. Pretty good sense!? WTF!?
It makes no sense at all, and we noticed Tripe, that you've completely ignored our comment at #101. You know, the part about how if jebus and god are one in the same, that would mean jebus fucked his own mother (underaged no doubt)to give birth to himself so that he could become his own father (god).
Let's see, that would make god/jebus a pedophilic, incestuous schizophrenic.
Whew! Merry Fuckin' Christmas
Stripe: "Abortion encourage rapists because they can abort the evidence."
Wow, that doesn't make any sense if you think about it. Most abortions occur some time after conception and I doubt most rapists would hang around to find out the results.
Yes, you are a moron.
@Janine - Yeah I do realise that a lot of babies die in failed pregnancies. It's terrible.
@Nerd of Redhead - You think that a baby is not a baby because he breathes in an assisted manner?
Weird.
You think a baby isn't a baby because he will die if his mother dies?
Bizarre.
Why are you calling me delusional?
@Carlie - You think I've expressed hatred? :O
I'm trying to express surprise right here. How is it coming across?
@Richard Eis - I'll pray for you. ;)
@percyprune - I asserted nothing about the reasons why men commit their crimes. But the fact is that if they see a way past any potential consequences that will only serve to encourage the crime.
@Dianne - You're right. The baby might grow up to be a woman. :)
There are many, many very good reasons why conception is considered the point at which parts from two parents form a new person. Do you have a better point at which you might define a person to have come into existence? Perhaps you agree with Nerd and think that only people who breathe unassisted are people. No, wait. That's a bit unfair. You don't seem that strange. :)
Merry Christmas.
@BLF and Eis.
You two haven't thought this through well enough. I'm not suggesting that the woman hides the evidence . I'm suggesting she is taken by her rapist to the abortion clinic and that the abortion clinic sends the child home with her rapist.
Evidence from the time of Jesus. Not many, many years afterwards full of stories of strange miracles and magic to make him look good. I mean the greeks and romans managed it. We know all about their histories.
Gregory G @143: I don't think that you're a biotech luddite and I apologize if I implicitly accused you of being one. There are definitely restrictions on the acquisition and sale of human tissue: it's a biohazard and there are quite intricate restrictions on consent. Companies that sell human tissue have to have and be able to prove that they have IRB approval for the tissue collection and that everyone who donated did so voluntary and without coercison. Cell lines are less well regulated. For one thing they came from humans so long ago that they've arguably speciated. And whatever wrong was done to the original donor, if any, is long ago and can't be fixed except by not doing it again.
That there is yer sign.
@Richard Eis - Sounds like you only reject Jesus as God. Do you also deny He even existed?
That, and that if the woman dies, the fetus dies. You can keep lying to yourself, but quit lying to us. We recognize you lies, and have for months.
Posted by: grantjohndexter @ 39
" ... The fact that Jesus was born even though his conception was unplanned by his parents is probably most properly remembered today by the closure, even if only for one day, of these places."
Actually, doesn't the bible say that God planned the birth of Christ when Adam and Eve proved to be such a disappointment? The need for Christ was confirmed when Eve ate of the wrong tree. It was just Mary who was surprised by events.
Even medical professionals who provide fertility control services deserve time off to celebrate in whatever way their beliefs dictate at this time of year.
"Remember, science tells us that human life begins at conception! ..."
Depends on your definition of 'human' and 'begins'. Do you define every individual cell as a human. Personally I see the whole process from ovulation to old age as a process of becoming human. The ova and sperm are a part of the living parents, which meet and continue living as a new organism dependent on another for its existence, but the zygote isn't yet human. The fetus isn't yet human. Even a baby is only a proto-human, but at least it's begun the first step to independent life. Kids become more human as they grow up and develop. Some people don't quite make it to fully independent, self-reliant and responsible adult human at all before they die. They stay undeveloped and dependent on parent surrogates to tell them how to live and think. Most of those are religious.
Regards,
Katkinkate.
It makes no sense at all no matter how long you think about it.
MrT - An alternative to aborting your child is to give him up for adoption.
Why are you calling me delusional?
When was the last time you heard of a rapist sticking around long enough to make sure that the victim aborts. And how will this hide evidence of the crime?
You are not just delusional. You are barely functional.
@Janine - Yeah I do realise that a lot of babies die in failed pregnancies. It's terrible.
So sad that nature is a fallen thing. It will be so much better when Jesus reigns supreme. At that point, the lions will lie with the lambs and feel no need to feed.
I'm just going to interrupt for a moment to put in another plug for my new favorite atheist Christmas song ever. Makes me laugh, then makes me cry.
Stripe @ 135;
'Needless to say, I did not say you (atheists) celebrate abortion. At least, not explicitly. :)'
To be fair you did not say that. That was grantjohndexter. My apologies.
'I notice you think abortion is necessary with an "if". I don't think there are any conditions under which one may gas Jews, own and sell black people or kill unborn children.'
So, you are seriously equating abortion with slavery and the holocaust? Slavery was undertaken to make slavers rich. It was a repugnant activity that is morally indefensible. The holocaust was an act of genocide perpetrated by some of the most vile racists in history who harboured delsuions of racial 'purity'. It is also morally indefensible. Neither act can be considered to in any way further the legitimate rights of any group in society.
Abortion, however, is fundamental to the rights of women. Without it a woman cannot exercise full control over her own reproductive process. If you genuinely cannot see the difference between genocide and slavery on the one hand, and the woman's right to choose on the other, then I do not think any force of reason or logic can reach you.
'Women maintaining biological autonomy or reproductive agency in our society doesn't sound like anything that might justify killing children.'
I assume from that blase statement that you are not a woman. If you in fact are, then I am surprised that you are so willing to sacrifice control over such an intimate aspect of your own life to a state mostly consisting of men.
'If abortion is outlawed, then the rights of all human beings are put on the same level with respect to whether they may be killed on demand.'
If by 'the same level' you mean that a woman cannot control whether or not she goes through the trauma of birth while the patriarchal state calls all the shots on her behalf, then you have a strange concept of 'level'.
'The state would not be able to tell a woman that once she is pregnant her body is no longer her own. That's just ridiculous. Why would you say such a thing?'
I say it because it is true. The state would be forcing a woman to go through child birth. This is an extremely traumatic and painful experience that has been likened to forcing a bowling ball through the cuff of a shirt. It can result in serious genital injury and even death. I was a breach birth, and if a skillful Australian doctor had not acted quickly, my mother and I would both be dead. Even so it was a close run thing. Even before this, the woman would have to spend 9 months undergoing a forced pregnancy at the insistence of the state against her will. You say this position is ridiculous. I note that you deploy no arguments to bolster your, at best, tenuous position.
'I know that conception there is a single fused cell. I know it is genetically distinct from its parents and I know it is a lot smaller than a fully grown human being. I know it takes a long time for a newly conceived person to grow into a full grown man. I don't consider every spermatozoa and every ovum a human being. Can you give me any good reason why I should?'
Your definition of the point when a group of cells becomes human is arbitrary and scientifically unsupported. Why shouldn't my illustrative example follow your pattern?
'You agree that fully grown people are human beings. Why do you not extend that back to when that person was conceived?'
The current medical definition of humanity is when the child is capable of life independent from its mother's body acting as a life support mechanism. when, as Nerd of Redhead eloquently puts it;
'It is not longer a parasite to mommy.'
'Regulation over what people may be killed is evil. Would you regulate how many black people we were allowed to own 200 years ago? Would you regulate the means by which Jews could be executed in WWII Germany?'
So, I am 'evil' for wishing to regulate a technology that has great potential for saving lives and alleviating suffering rather than wanting to outlaw it as part of a religious knee jerk reaction? And I see you are comparing stem cell research to slavery and the holocaust just as you sought to draw such a comparison to abortion. Once agian, the respective classes of things are not comparable. Appealing to an emotive historical event that has no bearing on the current debate does not strengthen your argument one iota.
You may disapprove of stem cell research, and that is your right. It is not your right, however, to dictate policy or deny hope to those whose only chance of medical aid for otherwise terminal or horribly debilitating conditions is the stem cell research you abhor. Ask yourself, if you were facing a slow slide into dementiua, and your only hope for recovery was a new stem cell based therapy, would you be so quick to refuse treatment? If you would, then would you also deny that treatment to a loved one? What makes you think that this position is so very righteous? I see nothing righteous in anyone paying for their piety with the suffering of others.
No don't...its dangerous....arghhhhh haven't you read the studies?!!!!
What? that doesn't make sense. Why would a rapist wait for a couple of months then take her to a clinic so he can have the dead baby?
There are many, many very good reasons why conception is considered the point at which parts from two parents form a new person.
Such as...???
Do you have a better point at which you might define a person to have come into existence?
Indeed. The obvious one is birth. Birth is a distinct biological event which occurs at a clearly defined point. Furthermore, a baby is clearly distinct from even a 9-month fetus in a number of ways. Most significantly for its "personhood", it is breathing high oxygen air instead of receiving lower amounts of oxygen through the umbilical cord. We know that the cerebral cortex doesn't work well in low O2 environments...in fact, it really doesn't work at all after a certain point. So it is reasonable to project that the fetus probably doesn't have the same amount of mental activity as a newborn. Furthermore, after birth it is no longer acting parasitically: i.e. absorbing nutrition from its mother without providing a benefit and causing significant risk of physical harm.
One could make an argument for setting "personhood" at an earlier time point: it's not entirely clear how much brain activity occurs before birth so an overly cautious person might argue for earlier than birth. However, there is a strong argument to be made against conception as the point at which a cell is declared a person: the definition of death. A person is dead not when their heart stops beating or they stop breathing but when their brain ceases to function. That being so, how can an entity with no brain (or any other organs) be considered a living person?
Oh FFS, that's even stupider. As Qwerty already pointed out:
Furthermore, you've totally ignoring the other point (made by multiple people), which is you don't need a fetus/baby to prove a rape. As one example (if many), a bit of semen (which can be collected from clothing) is evidence. Collecting those sorts of evidence is the basis of rape kits.
ANd even if the rapist did take the victim to a clinic/doctor, what prevents the victim from telling the staff/doctor what happened? It'd be a really stupid rapist who takes the lady he's just raped to a place where there are witnesses and CCTV cameras, even if he then runs off.
MrT - An alternative to aborting your child is to give him up for adoption.
Just make sure that the adopting parents are god fearing and heterosexual. And always inform them how lucky they were that they were not aborted.
Stripe, you may not believe this but people who are pro choice have no problem with this option. It is up to the woman who is carrying the fetus.
When the brain turns on, at the very earliest.
Actually, you did. Or do you not know what the words 'encourage' and 'incentive' mean?
No, this is not a 'fact', this is an assertion. And an ugly one with no substance.
Given that DNA evidence such as semen can be used to convict a rapist in this modern era, it's a most bizarre rationalization to imagine that the availability of abortion washes away evidence of a crime.
It's certainly possible that some moron rapist might believe this. People are inclined to believe all sorts of nonsense, such as belief in virgin birth, for example. Or the divinity of a 1st Century CE rabbi.
But in the absence of evidence otherwise I suggest any claim that this is a widely-held belief by rapists, or that it is an incentive to them to rape, is utter bollocks. You made this assertion up and pulled it out of your arse.
This is a scummy and unpleasant suggestion, the product of a deranged and infantile mind. It paints you as a deeply immoral and irrational person. Kindly go away.
@QWERTY - Many, many rapists do in fact become very aware of the consequences of their crime and remain in a position to do something about it.
@https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawk6EuJ25qQXXX6AA1qI20x3qF… (if that really is even your real name) - Yes, God planned the birth of Jesus before the foundation of the earth. Mary was quite surprised by the events, that I guess is fairly accurate. :)
My definition of human? Hmmm .. well a baby at conception is certainly not a dog, is it. It's not a fish. If we continue to rule species out the only one we're going to be left with is human.
Erm... Otrame is feminine. If I were male I would be Otrome. Oh, and I can be considered young only by people well into their eighties.
As for your remarks @102, the relevant part of
is the "if used correctly". So get out there and find us a contraceptive that can be, oh, say, inserted under a young man's skin at puberty and safely prevent spermatogenesis until he and his woman decide to reproduce.
Or hell, just go around to every school, church, other place young people gather, and preach about how important condoms are. Condoms can prevent abortions and AIDS too. Be sure and hand out a bunch everywhere you go. It's hard for teenagers to just walk into a store and buy a condom (they get too embarrassed) and an awful lot of kids end up pregnant because of that fact.
In other words, stop your sanctimonious whining and do something that will actually help people.
Well, I'm off to take some presents to my granddaughter's house. Y'all enjoy whatever form of Holiday or non-Holiday you prefer.
There are many, many very good reasons why conception is considered the point at which parts from two parents form a new person. Do you have a better point at which you might define a person to have come into existence? - Stripe
Birth. It is bizarre that so many of the religious use a purely physical, biological characterisation of what it is to be a person. To be a person involves acting (or at least trying to act), thinking and feeling at the least. The zygote is definitely not a person. It has no preferences or psychological characteristics, cannot act, cannot think, cannot feel, has never acted, thought or felt, and incidentally may develop into one fetus, none or more than one. That is not a person. The early fetus is definitely not a person for much the same reasons. A two-year-old, however, is a person, with all these characteristics of a person. The development from non-person to person is gradual, but nature has provided us with a very obvious place to draw a line: birth, when anatomical and physiological autonomy is achieved (this is true even of babies unable to breathe unassisted).
Stripe,
If a 9-year old is raped and impregnated by her stepfather, should she be permitted an abortion?
You two haven't thought this through well enough. I'm not suggesting that the woman hides the evidence . I'm suggesting she is taken by her rapist to the abortion clinic and that the abortion clinic sends the child home with her rapist.
What is your universe like because it is nothing like the one I live in.
Its more that I don't actually care. Plus I like my day off. I'm sure "a" Jesus was knocking about. But not any christian interpretation.
I'm sure someone with greater bible history knowledge will be able to fill in your details of why the bible is not accurate on Jesus.
Remember, a LOT of Pharyngula is ex-christian. They know their stuff. How well do you know your bible really?
FYI: Stripe=grantjohndexter. You should be able to recognize the identity by the amazing correspondence in stupidity.
I am assuming that the name juggling is just part of the business of shaking down the clumsy process of registration here...for now. Further name morphing will get StupidStripey banned, because it's really annoying and a headache for the guy trying to manage comments. Me.
He might eventually get banned for being so appallingly inane, too.
If a baby at conception is human, then the cells you sneeze out are human. Cells==cells; cells==humans; sneezing==murder.
It's not accurate, not even in your own bible. In fact, historical evidence suggests that Jesus probably isn't the person you think he was. (If he even existed that is.)
Until you provide conclusive physical evidence for your imaginary deity, you have no reason to make a silly statement like the above. As we have indicated, you are a delusional fool, and prove it every time you open your mouth. You must love the taste of toe jam and sock lint.
And if she gets one, should all parties (doctors, parents etc..) be excommunicated even though the abortion was necesary to save her life?
Actually, if you are saying that God planned Jesus, that means God was aware that man would fall into sin and did nothing about for thousands of years. God is a real prick don't you think.
"sentient babies are killed by the garbage can full. Society at large already condemns the killing of born people. I just go a few months earlier as well. Did you know abortion encourages rapists?
I might well be a bit contrary, but who knows, perhaps I'll say something someone will agree with. I've agreed with a few things you guys have said. Do you think you could put up with an alternative opinion for the sake of the season or something? :)"
Stop with the smiley faces...it's incredibly disingenuous and borderline creepy.
My point was bringing up abortion in a topic not even remotely related to it is...well, pointless.
And now you've gone and opened up a needless can of worms.
I'm not even going to address that last part of the first bit of drivel. Everyone else has pretty much taken care of it anyway.
Good luck there with that whole faulty logic thing.
So, Stripe, is an unfertilized egg a baby? If so, is menstruation a sin? How about a sperm? Better hope not, or you've got quite a genocide on your,...uh...hands.
It's funny, part of the reason why I rejected christianity is because I thought is was unfair to all of the people who lived before the supposed time of Christ. If the big sky daddy is all knowing and all powerful, why was it condemning these millions of people just because they were born at the wrong time?
If the Bible is evidence of Jesus, then the Harry Potter books are evidence of Voldemort.
The odious Stripe actually wrote:
"I'm not suggesting that the woman hides the evidence . I'm suggesting she is taken by her rapist to the abortion clinic and that the abortion clinic sends the child home with her rapist."
i'm assuming you mean that the woman again be abducted and forced to travel with the man who brutalized her and deliver a live baby, not a dead one?
You'd allow a man who is a sexual criminal who take an infant home?
You force a woman to essentially be PUNISHED for being raped?
Twit. No, that's not strong enough.
You're depraved.
Reason for the Season? Keep Christ in Christmas? Keep this in mind when you realize that Dec. 25th lands on a Firday, so be sure to pay tribute to Norse goddess Frigg, for whom the day is named. And, being in Canada, I will be sure to offer up a sacrifice to Saturn the following day before hunting down sales on Boxing Day, which is on a Saturday this year. Oh, and if you want to see these holier-than-thou tossers squirm a bit, ask them where the term Easter comes from (Anglo-Saxon goddess, Ēostre). Of course, they could rightly argue that, regardless of the pagan orgins of the name, it is the brutal torture and execution of Jesus that's being celebrated. Granted, but then you can say the same for Christmas -- regarless of the Christain origin of the name, it's the season of fellowship (or however you choose to see it) that's being celebrated. Have a happy frīgedæg, and a merry Saturn's Day!
In other words, the fetus is more important than the woman. The woman has to forfeit the right to control her own body because your opinion is that the fetus's rights dominate hers.
The rape victim is forced by the state to have the child.
Your hatred for women and need to dominate them just shines through.
@Gregory Greenwood - Yes, slavery was a repugnant activity that is morally indefensible, the holocaust was an act of genocide perpetrated by some of the most vile racists in history ...
... and abortion is worse than both.
In the USA alone 50,000,000 babies have been aborted in about 40 years. The only reason why this fact is not held up as the greatest evil is because you (and others) call it a "right". But that is changing. In the USA there are a number of movements underway to change the law. Once the law changes public opinion will change. When public opinion changes we will be judging a person's arguments against those used to support abortion rather than comparing them to Hitler.
America was the nation that brought Hitler to his knees. They stopped the Japanese in their tracks. They battled against and brought an end to slavery. Perhaps it will be the USA to defeat another great foe. And in our lifetimes. Wouldn't that be a splendid thing to be witness to?
@Richard Eis - The rapist would take his victim to the abortion clinic if he were a family member and wished to hide his crime. I really wish I didn't have to explain this to you people. I thought you'd be collectively smart enough to get it by yourselves. :|
Dianne - I'm shocked. Do you really think that travelling down the birth canal and starting to breathe on one's own makes one into a person? That's truly bizarre!
Do you think that a baby at some point has no brain? Where is the brain before it arrives?
blf - I am totally ignoring the other point. You noticed? :)
@Owlmirror - Is your brain turned on? :)
Actually the Soviets did more than the US. Learn some history, boy.
So you want to force a woman through a risky medical condition because you're squeamish?
Abortion is safer and has far fewer side effects than gestation and birth.
Stripe says, "I really wish I didn't have to explain this to you people. I thought you'd be collectively smart enough to get it by yourselves. :|"
Sorry, Dude, but it's hard for us to see things from your point of view when our heads won't fit up our asses.
Knockgoats - If a girl is raped and becomes pregnant then the guilty rapist should be executed and any innocent children should be protected.
It's called justice.
Merry Christmas, y'all. :)
@Stripe: Obviously the last time you sneezed you committed suicide by blowing your brains out.
I'm just taking this opportunity to sign up as a sort of anti-agbdavis and say I've been following PZ's blog for over a year now and am consistently entertained and encouraged by him, even when I disagree with him.
As far as Stripe the Troll...he is a shining example of all I reject as I take time to celebrate everything that is pleasant in my life.
Merry Christmas and Happy Monkey!
America was the nation that brought Hitler to his knees.
It is not at all surprising that you lack historical knowledge. England was able to fight Germany to a standstill. And it was the Soviet Union that bore the brunt of the worst that Germany had and beat Germany to a pulp.
I take back what I said about you being barely functional. You are incompetent.
The world according to Stripe, "Knockgoats - If a girl is raped and becomes pregnant then the guilty rapist should be executed and any innocent children should be protected."
So, Stripe, if the tendency to rape is genetic, you have just ensured that the next generation will have more rapist bastards in it. It's called unnatural selection.
You can't make this shit up, or so I thought:
"I'm suggesting she is taken by her rapist to the abortion clinic and that the abortion clinic sends the child home with her rapist."
You guys are better at spotting teh POEs than I. I'm just learning. I just can't believe some one could think that this is true. that this is actually taking place. and what legal restrictions are the clinics held to with disposal of an aborted fetus?
Me thinks that this clown-face may be toying with us. I'm just saying.
Stripe still thinks that a woman should be forced to suffer for nine months for something that someone else did. What a complete douche.
Including the child that was raped?
I missed this little bit of sadistic fantasy.
You and reality aren't even on a nodding acquaintance with each other.
Stripe,
What a dumb-ass question! In your case, & in the case of your co-religionists, it seems that brains aren't involved at all. Here's some verse for you to enjoy.
The Christian’s Jehovah is God Almighty,
a cantankerous sod, vain and flighty
and, insofar as I’m able to tell,
the Christian, often, is as well.
He’s confused with doctrines hard to see,
that three is one, yet one is three,
of heavenly father, son, and holy ghost,
when surely a mother is needed most?
If god’s omniscient, omnipotent, just and beneficent,
then how come evil is so god-damned prevalent?
The Jew’s Yahweh is a wrathful old jerk,
setting strict rules on when to work,
how to dress, and what to eat and sip,
and giving baby boys the snip.
Myths of Bronze Age, goat herding, nomads
metaphorically get ‘em, by the gonads.
The Moslem’s Allah is a fierce great djinn,
Submission’s the name of his religion.
Apostasy’s treated just like a crime;
they’ll threaten to kill you, to keep you in line.
The religion of peace is what they call it,
with warfare & terror, they zealously enforce it.
Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, and Jain,
Wiccan, Taoist, and the Born-Again,
those of each and every religion,
all are mired in superstition.
From your posts, yours isn't, and never was. Your deity doesn't exist since you have not provided conclusive physical evidence for one, and your who religion and anti-abortion stand is built upon mythology. Quicksand doesn't make for a solid rational foundation. Which is why you are a delusional fool, and show that every time you post.
That is a valid option, but compare this with:
The state will force her to have the child and give it up for adoption? But it gets even worse...
According to you, abortions are an incentive for rape. I have no words for how revolting and stupid an argument that is.
Then here's the real kicker. You think rapists will take their victims to abortion clinics and then be the ones who adopt the baby? How stupid are you? I very desperately want to call "Poe" here. I suppose, after that, the rapists are supposed to lovingly care for them and send them off to Sunday School to turn into delusional fucks like you. You are seriously crazy if you think 1) that is ever going to happen, and 2) that would be better than abortions.
Oh, and nice job pulling a Godwin. You will go to any length to demonstrate your insanity, won't you?
If anything is worthy of worship, I would worship the sun. That giant ball of gas (plasma). That being said, I would have to fake it and go along the crowd. At least for the time being.
Excuse me, we were fighting for ages before YOU turned up. And only because you got your little boat colony butt kicked by the Japs.
Firstly, wouldn't condoms be easier? Secondly how does going to the doctors and having questions asked help hide a crime? Thirdly, why is this a reason to deny the girl her abortion? Its not her fault.
I'm sorry (not) but rapists aren't going to rape more because they think they can have an expensive abortion whenever they feel like it. No rapist is going to want the girl to get pregnant then discuss it with her doctor. Doesn't work like that.
Abortion is NOT a pleasant process. It is NOT done lightly.
Wait, I thought you were pro-life for a minute there... Would that be before or after the rapist takes the victim to "the abortion clinic", where, presumably it isn't aborted but is delivered so the rapist can take the child home?
Whee! I was already to cheerfully talk up my stress-free holidays, but I see there's somehow an abortion-thread in my holiday post. It's like the universe noted I did not go to my family's place for the holidays and decided I should STILL be able to enjoy the blessing of people talking about something they know not wot. Thanks, Universe*! I almost feel like I'm back in Utah!
Now that we've gone and cast Stripe as the Creepy Uncle Who Got Drunk on Rum and Eggnog, let's see what embarrassing assertations we're going to have to explain to the round-eyed kiddies overhearing everything Stripe the Creepy Uncle is going on about.
(Creepy Unclehood is particularly important for a guy that seems to think women shouldn't be granted autonomy over their bodies.)
Stripe is absolutely bugfucknuts if he thinks abortion is destroying all evidence of rape, and therefore any deterrent to rape. That's one of the most stretched points I've seen in days, and weirdly enough, aimed at the one major exception even devoutly religious folk will grant in the abortion battles. As Gregory Greenwood points out, Stripe is using assault against women as one more reason to deprive women of their rights. It's pretty despicable.
For me, the concept of abortion is pretty simple. It boils down to "Here's a medical condition, while temporary in nature and lasting nine months, that could have long term effects on your health, your sanity, your ability to raise the children you have, your ability to take care of the children you might have, and your financial stability. If you ride out this medical condition, you will have a fully functioning but immature person to care for. You can also choose to terminate this condition, fully aware that there are some small risks involved. What do you feel is the best route for you and your family?"
Pregnancy is not a fun ride to the beach. For many women, it will affect their diet, their blood pressure, their ability to have more children, their sanity, sometimes for the rest of their lives. Despite everything a woman does to keep from conceiving there is a failure rate. (And don't give me the BS about abstinence having a 100% rate. It works...right up until you have sex, at which point it STOPS working. I know that's the definition of abstinence, but I mean, you might as well say, go and read a book, or take a nice long walk. Wait, that's not the activity you want to engage in and minimize the risk? Um, well, gee, can't help you there. When there are forms of contraception that let you engage in the activity and which are as risky as driving a car with your seatbelt on while sober, saying don't drive at all, metaphorically, is ridiculous. But I digress.)
Anyway, at some point in her life, one in three women will be pregnant when they don't want to be. Maybe they are about to enter school. Maybe they already have other kids they are taking care of. Maybe there's a fucking recession on. Maybe they live with an abusive partner and are trying to get out. (Interestingly, there have been studies done about abusers sabotaging their girlfriend's birth control. Niiiice, huh.) Maybe they have a history of depression and know that post-partum will hit them like a tonne of bricks. Maybe they have diabetes or a heart condition and pregnancy will always be a high-risk situation for them. Maybe they've been living with a smoker and have a drinking problem, and worry about fetal alcohol syndrome. Maybe they are too old to put their body through this. Maybe they are too young to put their body through this. (Teen bodies are still changing, and putting 13-15 year olds through nine months of pregnancy is actually kinda inhumane.)
Basically, it's the woman's decision to make. A medical decision. Because pregnancy comes with all kinds of fun medical issues as side effects. And to say that you want to withdraw the decision to expell a bit of tissue that is the size of a gummi bear (at the time most women have their abortions) because you think that tissue is more important than the fully-formed human being that is currently supporting it? Well, you are inhumane. You are in favour of forced pregnancy and forced birth. (And in the cases where the woman would lack the resources to care for the resulting infant, you would cheerfully have her hand it off for adoption, which has often proven to be a compounding factor in some women's post-partum depression. That's one thing the anti-choicers don't mention, incidentally.)
Creepy Unca Stripe thinks he should be the one to make that decision for women, secure in the knowledge that his body will never be subject to the same situation.
As with the Mormons sounding off on Prop 8, this is yet another incidence of a group trying to control something that doesn't affect THEM directly, but has the power to ruin other people's lives. Thanks for the inhumanity!
.....
So, what was this thread about? Holiday celebrations? I'm heading off later this afternoon to spend Xmas Eve with friends, eating cheese and sausages. Tomorrow my boyfriend and I are cooking in our apartment. We are treeless, presentless, and relatively stress-less. (Barring my tendancies to get embroiled in threads on Pharyngula.)
*Naturalistic fallacy.
Undoubtedly, in such a contrived scenario, he could.
But what you still haven't shown is that abortion is an incentive to the crime. Or that this even figures in a rapist's thinking. So far as I can see you have not shown any evidence--just raised a scenario that you pulled out of your backside.
And strangely enough the rate of abortion in the previous 40 years was no different to the subsequent 40 years. There are statistics for this. The major difference between the last 40 years and the 40 before that was that in the former case a lot more women died.
One of the reasons that the battle for abortion was fought was to make it not only legal, but safe. To prevent women dying from sepsis caused by back-street abortionists. Or being mutilated by non-medically supervised procedures.
To institute a ban on abortion would mark a return to the old ways, and to drive women into the hands of unsafe abortionists.
There you are with that word 'fact' again. It does not mean what you think it means.
It is a fact that the courts have asserted a right. And that after years of jurisprudence and rulings they do not call abortion within certain limits a 'murder' .
There are many reasons why the the state does not force a pregnant woman to term whether she wishes it or not. Her freedom of choice is one and is a good principle to fight for. Only a fanatic would want El Salvadorian-style 'womb police' intruding on women's privacy.
The woman's safety is another. Don't be so naive to think that the abortion rate would go down if the procedure was banned. All that would happen would be more dead women. And somehow I doubt their deaths would weigh on your conscience, because your every muttering marks you as just such an ugly fanatic.
How else would complete bollocks appear? If not by magical assery.
But I can believe in faeries, right? I can...can't I?
I believe in abortion too. Until men can actually give birth they have no business mucking about with what women do with their own bodies. Pregnancy is dangerous, kills a lot of women even in Westernized countries, and is bad for you body even if you live through it. So if you have two Y chromosomes...piss off!
Meanwhile...I can believe in faeries...Right? :)
@ Mr T
Yes. I just made another contribution to ACCESS, as I am reminded to do whenever godbot anti-choicers show up here. It's like a drinking game, except more constructive and without the hangover.
Actually if you consider that passing DNA to the next generation through the act of reproduction is a strong instinct for both humans and animals, then forcing women who have been raped to bear children gives any prospective rapist a quite successful reproduction strategy.
Impregnate as many women as possible so that the State will force the birth of your offspring, thus ensuring your DNA gets propagated.
Seems like an incentive to me, even if you do advocate a death penalty for rapists (even though a death penalty argues against the assertion that no one should take a human life.)
@Antiochus Epiphanes: Nah, I just chose my handle without realizing how close it was to yours. I prefer the later, temple-sacking, Apis-butchering version; more clearly antireligious, I thought, though both names assume a familiarity with Maccabees and/or Josephus, sadly lacking among the majority of godbots.
I used to be JiminKy, but then I moved to Florida, so that name no longer suited. I suspect we'll agree on just about everything, but in case we don't, we can always attribute it to multiple personality disorder in the Seleucid line.
Richard Els @220
"magical assery"
You got me there. my mind is a blank. but I shall recover: where's that fucking whiskey bottle?
See, Stripe isn't pro-life. He just supported the death penalty. Basically, people should live only when his church allows them to live.
“;)” does not mean what you think it means.
And did I notice? Yes. In fact, you're ignoring both (that means two (2)) of the other points I (and others!) have made. To wit:
(1) You don't need a fetus or baby ro prove a rape. So aborting one does not hide the evidence; in fact, an aborted fetus is evidence.
And,
(2) The rapist taking the victim to a clinic—where questions are asked and there is usually rather good security (including CCTV)—would be astonishingly stupid.
Abortions do not encourage rapes. That is simply absurd. Extremely absurd.
Two Y chromosomes? I wonder if that's Stripey's problem.
Owlmirror @ #179
Thanks for the link. It´s brilliant and so beautifully presented...should have known Sagan would produce a cogent argument.
Bonne (and sniny) Année everyone!
Antiochus Epi-M
Seleucid solidarity, Adelphos!
"I'm suggesting she is taken by her rapist to the abortion clinic and that the abortion clinic sends the child home with her rapist."
It's always about the bullshit hypothetical scenarios with these fruitcakes, isn't it? Never about the actual women who have to deal with the pain of an unintended pregnancy.
"... and abortion is worse than both.
In the USA alone 50,000,000 babies have been aborted in about 40 years."
Did any of those 50,000,000 babies feti leave behind loved ones, families, friends? Did any of them make any contributions to society? Does this country NEED 50,000,000 more mouths to feed at this time? Would you have stepped up to the plate to help care for them, or would you deny them welfare and such like all your Republican friends?
You might think I'm callous to think of what you call "babies" (for purely emotional effect) in that way, but I think you're insane for comparing abortion to the systematic killing of millions of actual members of society.
I'm not a biologist, but isn't there a tendency amongst human males with two or more Y chromosomes to have learning problems? (A quick check on Wikipedia suggests so.) But learning problems doesn't mean blazing stupidity, albeit I suppose it makes one more susceptible to cults, which can then result in dogmatic stupidity. (The current thread about the lds has a stellar supernova-class example of cult-created dogmatic stupidity.)
@Susan:
Yes. I just made another contribution to ACCESS, as I am reminded to do whenever godbot anti-choicers show up here. It's like a drinking game, except more constructive and without the hangover.
May I say how awesome I find that? Excellent idea!
#86 grantjohndexter Author Profile Page
Hey, grantjohndexter, I had 3 kids - natural , no drugs, nursed them for 3 years. Full time mommy for 20 years.
Yeah, I'm an atheist because I like abortions. My life just oozes that love o'abortions, doesn't it?
You tell me RIGHT NOW that you never once in your life had sex without protection when you weren't planning to have a baby conceived and I won't tell you to "Fuck Off!", you sanctamonious piece of crap.
"You tell me RIGHT NOW that you never once in your life had sex without protection when you weren't planning to have a baby conceived and I won't tell you to "Fuck Off!", you sanctamonious piece of crap. "
Save your breath, he's probably never had sex.
I still haven't got an answer to my question about the clinical disposal of a fetus? does anyone know?
so Stripper, do they put it in a ziplock for you? or maybe an urn? do you get to shake hands with the doctor and thank him for the "evidence"?
Also, in Creepy Unca Stripey's scenario, the kidnapped woman is taken to the abortion clinic by her rapist. This scenario is ludicrous.
The same abortion clinic where everybody who enters (including the people who are there for the cheap PAP smears and birth control) has to present ID through a little hole in the bullet proof glass window?
The same abortion clinic where there are often armed security guards?
The same abortion clinic where they will ask you if you are there of your own free will?
The same abortion clinic where they will separate you from your escort to make sure that you haven't been coerced?
The same abortion clinic where they ask you questions designed to make sure you aren't being domestically abused?
How does the rapist in Creepy Unca Stripey's scenario know that the abortion was actually committed?
He won't be allowed into the back area where they take the sonograms or offer counselling. He won't be allowed to make the decision about whether or not they will go with the pill--which is the only way I could see him actually seeing the results.
I mean, the whole idea that a rapist would place himself in an identifiable situation to get rid of evidence implicating him is pretty effing ridiculous.
See this razor, Stripey? It belongs to my good friend, Occam. Please use it. Your fallacy stubble is showing.
I just had me an abortion and I feel grrrrrrrreat!
It's December 25 in Adelaide, Australia - so, Merry Squidmas and Happy Monkey to you all!
Same to you, Wowbagger! Have a jolly day.
Congratulations. That comment has won you 1 internets. Spend them wisely.
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Hypatia's Daughter says "You tell me RIGHT NOW that you never once in your life had sex without protection when you weren't planning to have a baby conceived and I won't tell you to "Fuck Off!", you sanctamonious piece of crap."
Aw, go ahead and tell him to fuck off. In any case, I notice that by Creepy Uncle Stripey's definition (Well a fetus isn't a dog so it must be a person...) an unfertilized egg or sperm must also be a person. So, I would imagine that given the likelihood of substantial spilled seed during his adolescence, he'll have a lot of 'splaining to do when he sees his deity.
It snowed yesterday in England so are having a white christmas. Doesn't happen much these days. Its already melting. Damn you global warming.
Why aren't the christians doing anything about climate change since its destroying christmas traditions?
Yes. It really is. Because suppose this and suppose that leaves them able to pretend that contraception and fertility problems, rape, abortion, miscarriage, and messed up pregnancies don't actually happen to "good people" like them.
I wish Christmas didn't exist; it's both a religious and secular "day of obligation".
Bloody annoying — I got away from the former, but there's no getting away from the latter.
It snowed in New England over the weekend. It's been cold enough the snow is still on the ground. So we're having a white Christmas too, except where the snow is gray or brown.
Damn, I appear to have missed 'pile-on the clueless, woo-soaked woman-hating hypocrite scumbag' - blast!
Still, he gets points for providing a new (albeit spectacularly inane, even by theist standards) extraordinarily poor argument for why people have abortions.
Think about this, Stripe (if you come back) - if your god existed, he'd able to to prevent both rape and abortion. That these things happen are even more evidence that the being you claim exists is nothing more than a figment of your (profoundly limited) imagination.
Yeah, holidays are terrible things. They makes you miss all the fun…
I've left a note for Santa asking him to deliver him a whole truckload of coal. As a precision airdrop. Right on his blockhead. Truck and all.
JM@246 Really? The only obligation I've ever felt since reaching manhood is to sleep in. A rare privilege these days.
Peter @250, close enough.
(And now I'm off to see my mum and sisters and their kids, by way of my wife's mum. Oh joy.)
And an obligatory Merry Squidmas to all Pharynguloids ;)
--
obBonus:
The origins of the Aussie Christmas by Sarah Collerton.
Merry Christmas, Pharynguloids!
; )
Wow, what a completely sanctimonious cunt Stumpey is.
Going by #199
Bible fail much? Church history fail much?
Anyhoo, visiting the family out of town, plenty of food over the next few days. Yay!
>> You're free.
Echoes my sentiments exactly and is why I propose we campaign to associate Die Gedanken Sind Frei with Christmas!
So how is the war against Christmas going this year? We winning or what? I've been so jacked up on wine and cake I've failed to follow the latest reports from the front lines.
Merry Christmas! May this one be the last! ;)
"I do have one concern though, and I would like to ask my fellow Pharyngulites for advice.
Is it wrong to find a CG, 10 foot tall blue alien woman kind of hot?"
Who do you think we are, your religious leaders?
Ah, it's just turned Squidmass Day here. And I needs to goes to bed so Santa cans gets his work done. Cheers; Happy Holidays, Monkeys, and Burning Goats; and please don't explode from overeating.
I just wanted to put in a word for Achilles, since the evidence he existed is probably just as good as that for the Jesus fellow. In both cases there clearly existed one or more models (mighty warrior or nutty prophet, respectively) on whom the literary character was based. And since there was a whole cycle of Trojan War stories -- most of them unfortunately lost -- the evidence for Achilles was pretty good, once upon a time. Merry Christmas!
Knockgoats - If a girl is raped and becomes pregnant then the guilty rapist should be executed and any innocent children should be protected. - Stripe
Note that Stripe, like all such scum, is too much of a moral coward to say outright: no, a nine-year old girl raped and impregnated should not be allowed an abortion. But that is the clear implication. This nine-year old must risk her own life to bear her rapist's child. That's justice, according to Stripe. What misogynistic filth he is.
...and to all decent Pharyngulites, lurkers and casual visitors, a merry Christmas!
... acknowledge the "holy" in holiday...
There are those who demand we bow to what they call a "holy day", but those people just fail at reading comprehension.
The "holy" part is obviously in there, but the key interpolation is not "day", but "Ida". You couldn't forget her, if you ever knew her - biblically or otherwise.
Ida, oh sweet Ida - and never mind what they call her west of Montana.
@#257:
You're trying to slip in gay rights stuff by asserting the existence of Achilles, aren't you? Though of course to realize that, its opponents would have to actually read the story. I wonder if there are any other stories people really ought to read before they decide to assert their truth...
Thank you Susan, for that marvelous idea. In Creepy Uncle Stripe's honor, I have also made a donation to ACCESS.
Thank you Stripe, it's talk like that that can really motivate a person to DO something!
PZ #186:
If I have been following the comments accurately (and possibly I might not - the pertinent posts have been so repetitive), then hasn't Stripe/grantjohndexter already committed sockpuppetry by denying as Stripe a statement posted as grantjohndexter, and even eliciting an apology from someone who tried to make that connection?
@86 "That single cell is human. It's also alive."
So are many of the cells sloughed off the lining of your intestinal tract and disposed of every time you take a dump. You sinner you.
While you're pondering that think how many people wouldn't have been burnt at the stake had your hypothetical Jesus been aborted.
Note how Stripe has been avoiding the use of the term "person" in any of his posts, and instead uses "human", as if, to him, the two were equivalent?
It appears that the things that distinguish those two terms - you know, things like free will, agency, emotions, thought, self-determination, personality, etc - are not, in his worldview, worth thinking about.
Note also, that not all the cells in a human body die at the same time. The brain goes first, but other tissues endure beyond clinical brain death. Thus, by Stripe's definition of "human", autopsies, embalming, burial, and cremation all count as murder, and every recipient of a donated cadaveric organ is an accessory after the fact.
Don't forget the removal of cancerous tumors. Their DNA is also distinct from the body and they grow and reproduce. Oncological medicine is murder.
The woman who knocked down that old fool the pope was quoted as unstable.
Very sane imo . Pity she wasn't armed .
Knockgoats #258
"Note that Stripe, like all such scum, is too much of a moral coward to say outright: no, a nine-year old girl raped and impregnated should not be allowed an abortion. But that is the clear implication. This nine-year old must risk her own life to bear her rapist's child."
Well if you believe an unborn child is a person you could argue that, whereas the nine-year-old girl's life would be at risk if she carried the child to term (or if she had a caesarean section), her unborn child's life would definitely end if she had an abortion. So you're weighing the risk of death against the certainty of death.
I see there is no title. Christmas Is The Saddest Day Of The Year by Jill Sobule.
Bronze Age Man,
So you're weighing the risk of death of an actual person against the certainty of death of a collection of cells that do not constitute an actual person.
Fixed it for you.
And (now I'm REALLY wound up & hopping mad!) this sanctimonious scumbag, who has the highest & most uncompromising moral standards about an ethical dilemma HE personally will never face, thinks it's O.K. to kill rapists??!! Some sanctity of life!
So, Stripe/grantjohndexter (what kind of a duplicitous asshat pretends to be two different people on one thread??), you think killing people "for a greater social good" IS sometimes morally justified? Bet you support killing in self-defense, or in war, too? You just can never imagine that a woman with a "person" inside her might be facing the same kind of moral dilemma?
And don't kid yourself, these creeps would only start with outlawing abortion - then comes a judicial decision that most birth control methods are actually abortificants (science, be damned) and they are now illegal.
And, of course, if I cannot feed booze, cigarettes or drugs to my 2 month old baby, how can I be allowed to feed it to my 2 month old fetus? How can I decide to have medical treatments that may save my life but harm it?
Can't let the little ladies think that their lives, their autonomy, could EVER take precedence over that of another human being - even though the laws and moral codes have all been constructed to acknowledge that men may have the right to make those decisions.
Rant Off.
Okay...nevermind.
My computer is driving me crazy. Not that is had to put much effort into it.
Stripe speweth:
Actually it's far more than that since about 1/2 of pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion. Those abortions are done by God though. It's just sad that he's so bloodthirsty. Perhaps fetal souls are some kind of delicacy among the angels or something. I mean they rebelled once already, maybe this is what Jehovah bribes them with.
Got it - Hitler.
Um, oh my. OK, how to explain this. See babies start out as zombies. They lack a brain but somehow know they need one. Since they can't get out of the womb to shamble about groaning they siphon off pieces of their mother's brains through the umbilical cord. This is also what makes girls bad at math. How's that?
Merry Winter Solstice to my fellow travelers in non faith.
From stripe:
"... and abortion is worse than both.
In the USA alone 50,000,000 babies have been aborted in about 40 years. The only reason why this fact is not held up as the greatest evil is because you (and others) call it a "right". But that is changing. In the USA there are a number of movements underway to change the law. Once the law changes public opinion will change. When public opinion changes we will be judging a person's arguments against those used to support abortion rather than comparing them to Hitler.
America was the nation that brought Hitler to his knees. They stopped the Japanese in their tracks. They battled against and brought an end to slavery. Perhaps it will be the USA to defeat another great foe. And in our lifetimes. Wouldn't that be a splendid thing to be witness to?"
I am always amazed that those who oppose the Roe v. Wade decision forget that abortion was LEGAL prior to Roe in many states.
Also, anti-abortion laws prior to Roe v. Wade DID NOT prevent women from having illegal abortions.
Also, anti-abortion laws have never prevented women with the means to do so from going to anywhere where abortion is legal to have their abortion.
Stripe, your simplistic thinking that overturning Roe will lead to no abortions is just that: simplistic.
You are a moron.
Janine @270
At least you have us Pharyngulites! I know it isn't the same as family. Maybe the Pharyngulites need to think of some upbeat things - music, sayings, jokes, cyber hugs, etc.
Here's a cyber hug for all those who need one this holiday season!
Wwbggr
" cllctn f clls tht d nt cnsttt n ctl prsn"
S whn d ths clls cnsttt n ctl prsn? At brth s Knckgts sggsts?
Or rlr? Sy ?
Merry Christmas, Janine. Love ya, girl.
Oh, and have a safe 4th of July.
I see that Bronze Age Man has been disemvowelled. Who was he? I haven't seen anything from him that would normally rate that treatment, but if he's a sockpuppet, as I strongly suspect he is, well, that'd explain it nicely.
Oh wait - was that a link to pictures of aborted fetuses? Oh good grief.
as the Church Lady would say, "...Nevermind!"
d lk t prps tht nyn rfsng th s f vwls b bnnd
I suspect that Bronze Age Man is banned troll (and Liar for Catholic Jesus™) Piltdown Man, hence the disemvowelling.
See the list of crimes in his dungeon entry. He'd like to see the world ruled by a Monarchical Catholic Theocracy - and would be quite happy to see opponents of the Holy Roman Church tortured and murdered to achieve that end.
Oh, and he seriously believes in demons.
For AGBDavis, who wants something positive: A Cuttlefish classic: "The War on Christmas Comes Early".
Qwerty, I think you got the wrong thread.
Amicus, thanks but I am not saying I am sad. I just like Jill Sobule and that her song places a slightly different spin on things. Let's just say that I avoid most Christmas songs.
'Tis, what? Alright. May you get through Valentines Day without a major incident.
I guess that Bronze Age Man was the Hoax. The moniker was an attempted jokey play on what many people call christianity, a bronze age myth. Also, the style of the message was much like he other links. I did not bother to hit the link.
The Hoax is like a moth to a flame, he keeps visiting here. Almost makes me wish I could dress him up in a rubber bondage outfit.
Qwerty, I am sorry. I forgot that Stryper was on this thread.
Thinking of 'Tis, Patricia, and everyone else who has lost loved ones this year. I hope your holidays are filled with good memories, and that you have many years ahead to create more.
I'll drink to that. To not muddling your own or anyone else's head with shadows 'n spirits 'n demons 'n gods...
It being the darkest time of the year (at least in my hemisphere), and traditionally a time of whisky and toasts, I figure it's also a propos to raise a glass to all those who've in their various ways shone the lights into those shadows, chased 'em back a little further, shown us the bones of the real world...
So to Voltaire and to Ingersoll, to Russell, to Sagan, to Darwin, to Einstein, to Dawkins, to Hitchens, to Dennett, to PZ, to Watson and Crick and Gould and Feynman and Futuyma and every unsung science teacher and every struggling lab rat toiling in obscurity and every voice on this blog who's ever ridden the creobots down and made 'em cry the way they so richly deserve--to all of you and all of them, here's a glass raised, and I hope everyone gets some time in the next few days doing whatever it is they're happiest to have a few days to do.
(/And til later, I guess.)
I was reading some of Stripes posts upthread, and I must admit that his, um, 'unique' perspective on the rights of women was begginning to get to me. I was all ready to compose a scrupulously polite, and commensurately flaying, retort only to discover that he has already been comprehensively annihilated by various other contributors. Bravo all.
It is hard to believe that anyone can seriously espouse the kind of position adopted by Stripe. Claiming that abortion is worse than slavery and genocide boggles the mind.
Oh, and the use of such disingenuous sock-puppetry on the thread is really low. To think that I actually apologised to him.
It is with a heavy heart that I am compelled to take extreme measures. I am afraid that there is but one term of sufficient gravity to describe Stripes offences against Pharyngula.
Stripe, I hereby name you git in the presence of my peers. Git thou art, and git thou shalt remain so long as the intertubes endure.
There, it is done.
With that unpleasantness behind us, may I wish my fellow Pharyngulites a Merry Winter Solstice with cyber hugs all round.
Wowbagger @ 284;
Yes, I remmember Piltdown Man and his downright weird beliefs. His thing for feudalism and his literal, unabashed belief in non-figurative demons makes me think he would have been happier if he had been born a few centuries earlier. I had not realised he had been banned though. Still, I suppose that has been on the cards ever since he started talking about his designs for bloody Catholic global revolution. Some truly strange people haunt the interweb. I say this from a position of authority since I would probably qualify as one of those strange people.
The family is here and we're about to sit down for dinner. Happy holidays, everyone!
And, as an intermediate or alternative, he approves of Fascism -- as long as it's good Catholic Clerico-Fascism.
Mussolini and Hitler weren't Catholic enough for him, but he licks the jackboots of Franco and Petain -- who gladly allied with Hitler.
About abortion and rapists:
Since rape is about control rather than sex, I'd imagine that abortion *discourages* rapists. If I were a rapist, damn straight I'd want my victim to be doubly victimized and carry my baby to term. Actually, I once met someone whose whole goal in life was to impregnant as many women in life as possible by whatever means necessary (by which he meant money, but others might use rape). Getting a woman pregnant and forcing her to carry the baby to term would be half the fun. Don't encourage rapists! Allow abortions!
Thank you, Carlie.
May your days be happy and full of wonder.
Tripe,
If you are still around, I would like you to know that your anti-abortion stance is unbiblical.
In the Old Testament it says the punishment for causing a women to abort is a few shekels. However,if further damage is caused to the women it is an eye for an eye.
See how much God value a fetus? A few shekels.
Also, a baby isn't a full member of society for, IIRC, a month. Just in case it dies it is not even named right away.
See, we atheists allow a baby to be recognized at birth while the Bible commands us to wait a probationary period before becoming fully human.
Hey the Bible is a bunch of crap anyway, but just thought you ought to know you are not following God's word by being a pro life dip shit.
@286: as long as he has the keyboarding equivalent of a ball gag too.
re #295:
I imagine that's one of those liberal-biased inaccurate passages that Conservapedia's bible project is going to fix for us.
At any rate, it probably only applies to wanted pregnancies. Those fetuses are tainted because their origin involves sinful female choice and unclean female desires, and so are worth much less, in accordance with the doctrine of original sin.
It is the unwanted fetuses, like the rape fetuses, the ones resulting from purely male initiative, expressions of male dominance and intent, the ultimate symbols of patriarchy in its purest, undiluted form, that are the most sacrosanct. These are the ones that must be protected.
"Oh wait - was that a link to pictures of aborted fetuses? Oh good grief. "
Yep, I managed to catch it just before the disemvowelling. See, at ten weeks, the fetus looks kinda sorta like a person, ergo, full personhood. And look at the blood!
I don't think that's really Pilty's style, but I could be wrong.
FUCK YOU, I WONT DO WHAT YOU TELL ME!
Sorry, that was me revelling in the brittop40 #1 this year. (^.^)
(first time poster, long time lurker)
But indeed, i will not be following pz's advice. I always light a couple of candles for the ancient goddesses. It really gets on my relatives nerves.
Observing Yule does grant one the nice foodstuffs, the merry firelog, holy trees, first name basis with great gods and goddesses and most important MEAD! The twitching in my daughters grandmothers eyes is just sweet icing on the yule-log-cake.
Then again i identify myself as a pantheist, throws people of their guard you see? And Richard Dawkins said it's sexed-up atheism, who would not want that! (^.^)
In the other news; RATM on #1, 3 Irish bishops step down in childmolest case, pope attacked (the ratz is fine), the national radiostations of the Netherlands [7ml] and Belgium [3,6ml] have brought together more than 10 million euro for the red cross against malaria.
'this the season to be jolly.
Sara and I wish you a very merry Christmas. May you receive all the many blessings that the Christ Child brings with Him today!
Everyone feel sorry for me. I just swallowed a bit of living human cells from the side of my mouth while biting into some good bread rolls. Now I'm a cannibal. Oh dear gods, what have I become!?!?!?
Not to mention it hurts like hell.
Many, many people can say that.
What do you think saran wrap is for? Or hands. Or "alternative sex acts." Or sex toys.
Humans are imaginative and have figured that one out a long time ago.
Being careful and paranoid works. It is a lot better and more entertaining than hoping a period isn't late.
Hmmm, not very seasonal. So Happy Holidays and Merry Xmas everyone.
John R, was there any reason why you left the message that you did? Or are you trying to help save all of the pitiful heathens that show up here? Either way, get away from this blog and go enjoy your day.
Gee thanks. Happy winter Solstice and may the Godesses Asherah, Astarte, and Inanna bless you today and every day.
Posted this on another thread, but reposting here as well - my favourite xmas "carol".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P37xPiRz1sg
Trip to NY to see family ended up being canceled, so we are having a quiet time at home. Have a happy whatever, y'all.
Some Christmas Cheer.
Quoth Stripey,
So.....this was posted in defense of his postion upstream, no realizing that it strengthened the argument for a LEGAL medical procedure and negated his argument that "abortion encourages rape" altogether....followed by an incredulous reponse that a zygote couldn't possibly not have a heart, lungs,and,...wait for it....an intact neural system, to posters here many of whom have at least a passing familiarity with developmental embryology("well, where does it come from then")...followed by a historically inaccurate Godwin(as so many are)...I've taken a wrong turn down a redolent, condom-strewn alley that I felt obligated to follow to it's terminus by sick fascination, but now after attempting to follow the mental gymnastics of some here I've got a headache. Merry Christmakwanzaaka/winter soltice and to all a good night!(fundy asshats excepted)
To all our friends here, please be safe, be warm, be happy.