Like the writers at Political Animal, I have regarded the sordid celebrity nonsense surrounding Tiger Woods with complete indifference. He's rich, he has behaved stupidly, that's the end of the story, despite all those lurid magazine covers in front of my face at the supermarket checkout line.
But this is something else. Brit Hume, who has always been mindless conservative drone, has crossed a line. Look what he said on Fox News:
The extent to which he can recover seems to me depends on his faith. He is said to be a Buddhist. I don't think that faith offers the kind of forgiveness and redemption that is offered by the Christian faith. So, my message to Tiger is, 'Tiger, turn to the Christian faith and you can make a total recovery and be a great example to the world.'
Nothing surprising there: Fox News pundits clearly would like to see all of America converted to some form of right-wing Christianity.
I am surprised by one thing, though. Who knew all those other celebrities behaving badly on magazine covers and celebrity news were all non-Christian?
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And if that doesn't work, Tiger, give a call to South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford or Nevada Senator John Ensign. They'll provide you with some valuable tips on how being a fundie christian will strengthen your marriage vows.
They weren't true Scotsmen, uh, Christians, of course.
I like this formulation, though, where Tiger can just become Xian, no matter that he's acted poorly toward others, and he'll be just fine. Reminds me of my brother-in-law, who's suddenly become a True ChristianTM at the prospect of divorce, and thinks that all of the past no longer matters.
For sure, many Xians demand repentance and righting of wrongs for true forgiveness. But what Hume and my sister's husband seem to think is that getting religion is all that's needed.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Only if Lance Armstrong converts to Nuwaubianism will the world of sports be safe.
Most things on Fox are vastly improved with a little abridging for today's time-pressed audiences.
Nor do they need it. There's nothing like inventing a disease and then selling the cure.
Well, they're not True Christians™.
Tom Cruise the Scientologist seems to get an exception with regard to his "religion" at Fox News, ironically.
I guess the only explanation is that he did, in fact, attain level 6, and has rigged our universe so that Fox News doesn't hate him. Pity he didn't fix the Middle East while he was at it.
Wow, Fox openly proselytizing! I don't watch Fox News, so is this normal? Shouldn't they be on a UHF channel somewhere?
Darth Hume: "Tiger, come over to the Dark Side."
It's not that Christians don't behave badly, it's that only Christians will receive forgiveness and redemption for their transgressions. That's the hook for Christianity!
Over/under on Tiger coming out as a born-again fundie type in the coming months?
Hate to say it, but that might actually work in this country, from a PR perspective. :I
Turn to Christianity and be a great example, Tiger! Just like Ted Haggard!
Hey, Brit! Your ass is showing. The extent to which you can recover is dependent upon your brains. But you are said to be a Christian. I don't think that faith requires the sort of intelligence you would need in atheism. So, my message to Brit is, "Suck it, you sanctimonious pig!"
I'm with PZ on the whole Tiger woods scandal thing. It was never really newsworthy to begin with, but there are elements of the media who just love to gloat over celebrities being forced to air their dirty linen in public.
It is nothing short of hilarious to listen to the rank hypocrisy of any fundie advocating the idea that Woods should jump on the Xian bandwagon in order to find redemption in the eyes of the public and rebuild his career. It is not as though fundies ever engage in dubious sexual liasons, oh no.
Unless you count the endless litany of Republican, 'family values' xian politicians who are caught with their pants down. Often literally, and often with their underage interns, but, you know, pressures of such an important position. Who can blame them really. Plus the saucy little minxes were probably gagging for it. (I feel really dirty writing this.)
Then, of course, there are the various clerics (catholic and otherwise) who think that their 'ministry' is in actuality an excuse to have unsupervised access to the object of their perversion; pre-pubescent boys (or girls, depending upon the specific brand of pious child abuser.) Here again though, we should bear in mind that the ruination of the sexual development of children in order to satisfy the perversion of dirty old bastards who hide behind their dog collars, is a small price to pay for the spiritual guidance they provide to the community, or something. (I now feel the need to exfoliate with a cheese grater.)
Yup, it is clear that right wing Christians are the ultimate moral authority on all matters sexual. Honest.
Right, and exactly what does Hume know about Buddhism? Fucking idiot. Fuck you Britt.
I suppose Buddhism doesn't have that "get out of sin free" card. I think they expect you to actually DO something.
Yes, because all those Christians have been so successful in avoiding adultery.
Imagine that, all that success and he didn't even need Jesus to help.
Brit Hume is said to be a Christian. I don't think that faith offers the kind of stripper factory and beer volcano that is offered by the Pastafarian faith. So, my message to Brit is, "Brit, turn to the Pastafarian faith and you can wear full pirate regalia and counteract global warming. Ramen."
/Fair and Balanced
'Tiger, turn to the Christian faith and you can make a total recovery and be a great example to the world.'
"Tiger, you seem like one of our guys, come play for our team"
For some reason, this sort of admonishment always makes me think of serial killers who "embraced Jesus" and turned "born again" and other brands of True ChristiansTM.
Hume doesn't know much about christianity; or buddhism for that matter. I mean how many holy buddhist wars have there been? I mean real wars where innocent people died just for not being buddhist? It's not a perfect religion, it puts too much stock in the invisible world and advocates elimination of the self and denial of the physical world, but as faiths go it's not that bad. Certainly better than christianity.
Christianity is more of a marketing campaign. It creates a need (to be forgiven) then provides the means to fulfill that need (a savior figure). It would be cleaver if people didn't take it deadly seriously. Buddhism is much more of a "lead by example" and "practice what you preach" faith without dogma. They openly say there are many ways to enlightenment instead of the "my way or you'll go to Hell" attitude of christianity.
At least buddhism knows that forgiveness has more to do with those harmed by ones actions than an invisible sky fairy.
Sorry Brit, Buddha's got that covered:
"Those who for a thousand eons Committed deadly unwholesome deeds, By confessing them earnestly once through this sutra, all will be purified."
- The Golden Light Sutra
http://www.fpmt.org/teachers/zopa/advice/goldenlight.asp
Anyone want to lay odds on how quickly Christian pundits will start complaining about Brit being "persecuted" by anyone daring to criticize him publicly for his remarks?
Jesus is also good for pain relief! (With extra copper and magnetic power!) Redeeming Tiger should be easy by contrast. Helping Brit is another matter, though.
I don't think that's right at all. I honestly don't believe for a second that the pundits give a shit what their viewers do or don't do, just as long as they keep watching.
Fox has explicitly selected to target a segment of the population too dumb to realize when they're being pandered to, and Fox's strategy is to pander to them 24/7, in the well-founded belief that it will cause that viewership to keep coming back for more of the same.
There is probably nothing Fox could do that would surprise me, save for becoming an actual news channel.
What is "forgiveness"? In this context it's just forgiving yourself of the wrongs you've committed, however you don't need faith to convince yourself you're forgiven. It's merely rationalization, though maybe Hume is right and Christianity is much better at rationalizing wrongs than other religions.
In a separate context, which involves yourself plus those around you it's just the pressure of tradition that enables forgiveness. Just pay your sins away and everything's forgiven.
There is no "forgiveness" in any true sense of the word where religion is involved. In either context you're only being told that you're forgiven or that you should forgive someone, because your faith says so.
So it isn't that other or no faiths don't offer spiritual or moral guidance, but that they don't offer Get Out of Jail free cards.
Yes, the Master of Faux News desires a population of imbeciles; his wealth depends upon it.
I don't really think Tiger Cheetah should worry too much about a prediction from Brit Hume regarding his future. Hume's track record as a clairvoyant is a little spotty, as this quote from a 1995 interview illustrates:
Source:
http://www.nndb.com/people/489/000024417/
Alverant@21:
A few. None recently. A quick google for "buddhist holy war" will find you references, but here's a quick one (with a list of references) from Yahoo Answers.
But let's look at this objectively: the most well-known Buddhist countries are probably Tibet and Japan. Japan wove Buddhism through the bushido code; apparently kamikaze pilots were known to recite Buddhist mantras during their attacks, much like Islamic suicide bombers will recite Koranic passages.
Tibet is such a peaceful place that all the monks live in heavily fortified dwellings on top of hills, with good clear fields of fire all around. Rather than farm their own food, they used to get provided gifts from the surrounding villages, who have been looted and pillaged by Buddhist bandits monks so much over the centuries that now they give up the food for free. And all that martial arts practice is about finding your spiritual centre, perhaps by breaking somebody's spine in two.
Humans are violent. Religion is a human invention, practised by humans. The official doctrine of a religion may be peaceful (just like Islam is a "religion of peace"), but at the end of the day, it's about leaving the other guy in pieces.
Last year, I overheard one of my co-workers extolling the virtues of Christianity:
"The best thing about being a Christian is that no matter what you do, if believe and ask Jesus' forgiveness it will be forgiven and go to heaven!"
I was tempted to ask about serial killers who convert before they get the needle or a child who dies without had never heard of Jesus, but I didn't want to get into trouble. Babbling about religion is fine, but irreligion tends to be frowned on even in Wisconsin.
That, and I tend to loose my temper rather quickly when the topic of religion comes up.
Not most forms anyway. There are one or two odd sects (specifically Pure Land and Nichren) that are slightly more belief oriented - and might have something along those lines. For most Buddhists though, nothing ever replaces meditation.
Actually, scratch that "none-recently"; apparently one of the protagonist groups in the on-again, off-again Sri Lankan civil war is a Buddhist fundamentalist group that practices ethnic cleansing.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war#Sri_Lankan_Civil_War)
The forgiveness and redemption Hume is talking about is vis a vis God. Christians would be concerned about Tiger's relationship with Jesus, Buddhists would be concerned about his relationship with his wife.
"how many holy buddhist wars have there been?"
Quite a lot. Remember Sri Lanka and the LTTE? I'm from India and I've met several Sri Lankan Tamils (Hindu/Christian/Muslim folks for the most part) who have been persecuted by the mostly buddhist Sri Lankans either in retaliation to the LTTE atrocities or in just a case of the majority population taking the minority for a ride.
In fact, the LTTE was formed because of the majority/minority problems between the Sinhalese (native Sri Lankans - Buddhists) and the Sri Lankan Tamils (mostly non-Buddhists).
Well this is interesting:
So was he practicing Christianity from the waist down, or Buddhism?
As we learn with every religious-right sex scandal, the amount of religion practiced from the waist down, is exactly fuck-all.
Hmm I wonder if the other panelists were embarrassed by Brit Hume. Here's a (edited) video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkDMy0wVyBg
I bet they were all thinking what a dingbat he must be.
Yeah, because as anyone affiliated with C Street or The Family will tell you, it's not important to be a good person, it's important to get Yeshua ben Joseph to forgive your sins. It's not important to be kindly, generous or respectful of the rights of others, it's only important to be "In Christ".
Can I get an "eh, Men?" ?
Sad thing is, he's probably right. Finding Jesus is a great way to convince Americans that you've left your sinnin' ways behind you. Bonus points if you can cry.
My own brother actually used a Fox "documentary" as a basis for arguing against "global warming hysteria"
I feel so ashamed :(
Zeno #24. I believe that your link was to the version B bracelet. The version A is straight with a point at one end and a flat head on the other. The A version comes with a "lifetime" guarantee, or 3 days, whichever comes first.
Brit is wearing his surname badly.
386sx ¾:
Thanks for the video.
It's not good when you can make Bill Kristol seem relatively sane.
Like all religious nonsense, this is just too weird for me. It's been so long since I've stopped believing it's hard to figure them out anymore. Why would this of all things cause him to slag on Buddhism and start evangelizing?
Perhaps ol' Brit has been sinning recently himself, and as part of his penance (or simply as a cheap bribe) he had to do some extra godbotting on TV while talking about a philandering golfer. Then again, maybe he doesn't even believe that shit, but it's just something guaranteed to boost ratings.
These people don’t even know their own faith.
Anyone who actually paid attention in church should know that there are two conditions for gaining forgiveness:
1) Accepting Jesus as your Lord and savior.
2) Truly having remorse for your sins.
The idea being that if you truly have remorse for your sins you will be less likely to commit them in the first place and ultimately be a better person in life. Just because you expect forgiveness it doesn’t give you a license to kill.
You will know True Christians(tm) by their actions.
However, I guess we shouldn't expect too much from them. These are people who worship a god that sends bears to maul children after all.
Hurin @ 14: and exactly what does Hume know about Buddhism?
Even less than I do, it would appear. It astonishes me that anyone would say such a thing without doing the most cursory checking. At least, it would if this weren't Fox "News".
he has behaved stupidly
I'm not sure what exactly is stupid about Tiger Woods having his way with countless smoking hot women.
I'm sure it's already been said, but Jebus can't forgive Tiger, only the wronged, his wife, can.
Of course, she has a bit of spousal abuse for which to be forgiven...
Jayaram @ #35,
Not true. The war in Sri Lanka was over ethnicity, not religion. Religion is one of the many factors that define each ethnic groups. (And all Tamils are Hindus - while there are Muslims that speak the Tamil language, they are not Tamil by ethnicity, and in fact the Muslims in Sri Lanka were highly oppressed by the LTTE, which is why they actually took the side of the government.) No one was killing the other group over religious matters. Neither side was quoting scripture. Simply, it was not a holy war on either side.
On a different note, Buddhism is not a single religion, there are many forms of it depending on geography. While Tibetan Buddhists believe in 'mantras', Sri Lankan/Thai/Vietnamese Buddhists do not; while Japanese Buddhists may believe in justified violence, Tibetan Buddhists do not.
The thing that gets me about these kinds of statements is that they are in effect an admission that religion is bullshit.
Religion is supposed to explain the hows and whys of the universe. You get to CHOOSE how the universe came to be based on your personal preference?
It's an admission that religion is nothing but self-centered childish wishful thinking.
It makes about as much sense as telling someone who is depressed by rain to instead decide to believe that the water is a signal from (insert favorite sex symbol here) that they want to hook up.
People invent religion to give themselves (they imagine) godlike powers.
Of course the "choose your own reality" mindset is not at all surprising coming from Fox.
If Keith Olbermann's back on Monday, I sure hope that this puts Brit-Brit on his Worst Persons in the World list...
Tiger shouldn't convert to Christianity, or any other religion, to fix his career. He should issue a big, public "Fuck you!" to his sponsors, ditch the wife, and be seen with as many floozies in public as possible (the trashier, the better).
When he starts winning golf games again, he can market his "bad boy" persona to energy drink companies and Ed Hardy, then watch as the media finds it cute and adorable that the new Tiger sleeps with whoever he wants. And as he falls asleep at night on his bed made of money with a pillow made of blonde, he can wonder like the rest of us, "What the fuck is wrong with this country?
The last thing we need is one more fuck-up turning to God, or one more jerk advocating same.
Offerings to gods and monks, who will meditate and pray for you, work as well.
Yes, here in Thailand -- overwhelmingly Buddhist -- you get a "get out of jail cheap" card by "making merit", which can involve doing good things but usually, for the rich, involves nothing more than flinging some money at some monks or a temple. Tiger could do it with just a fraction of a month's earnings. However, he has a reputation here of never doing anything with his mother's country unless it involves him picking up a check. This contrasts with other part-Thai atheletes such as Johnny Damon, who gives to and works with Thai charities.
The arrogance of these so-called Christians never ceases to curl my lip...(as in snarl).
I loathe their whole "not perfect, just forgiven" pomposity--behaviour any civilized person should consider most vulgar.
And what makes it especially galling is the fact that it came out of that twerp Brit Hume's nauseating little pie hole--I already knew I despised him for his politics--(remember his many on-the-air Bush worship escapades?)--now I have absolutely no regard for his entire cellular structure, rancid as it obviously is. {{{Hurl!}}}
I don't give a shit about any of this. It's meaningless to me. WTF do I care about some guy who plays the most boring game in the world?
Let's face it, Wood's race is a big factor in the viciousness of the media. The only thing the average American or media whore loves to get their panties in a wad over more than a successful person fucking up is a successful African American fucking up.
Ah, shit, my "there, fixed it for you," for the blockquote got lost somewhere.
It's a good thing (for him) he didn't say this in Ireland.
To take this further, it's true that Fox has a political agenda, but that isn't the primary reason why they do what they do.
Their prime motivator is to keep their population of dunces tuned in so they can be exposed to an endless shit-stream of advertisements for consumer crap.
That's it. In fact, if dog fighting and pedophilia were legal, Fox would schedule hours of programming of each, and hire Michael Vick and [insert name of random priest here] as commentators.
In truth, it's not nearly as much about politics as it is about ad time profits. That's why we stopped watching TV. It's mostly just entertainment designed to keep you in your seat so some corporation can sell you another car, iPod, or counter-top barbecue grill.
Off-topic: It's too bad my favorite blog has animated ads. I would expect this stupidity from a Christian blog, but why would a science blog want to be evil?
Brownian@4
Good 'un, mate!
As for Woods, he should just take the financial hit, get the divorce, and then become the "Bad Boy of Golf" as suggested by Tuxeudo @52. The fans of this, possibly more boring than watching a casket warp game, are mainly men and as such have the attention span of a gnat when it comes to such things. As long as he plays well, the sponsorships will come and fans will follow.
That position has been granted for life to John Daly.
ape @ 47,
First off, I'm with Aquaria on this one, I could not care less what golf millionaires do with their money and how they cheat on their wife and how often.
It would, I would have thought, still be considered stupid or at least somewhat wrong to fuck around when you're married.Then just don't be married.
As to the "countless smoking hot women" bit, I couldn't help and see some pics and vids of these ladies, and they all appeared to me to be from the same clone factory, all surgically enhanced fake blondes with huge tits.
This must be the american idea of "smoking hot", it sure isn't mine.
I guess Brit conveniently forgot all those Christians on C Street, all those ADULTEROUS Christians over there on C Street.
@Bix12: The arrogance of these so-called Christians never ceases to curl my lip...(as in snarl).
You might have mis-spoke. They're not so-called. They actually ARE!
@ Darreth--point well taken. /;-)
The guy at the panel center (Kristol? I'm foreign) commends Hume for his "admirable faith".
I hope what he really means was "it's admirable how you manage to get here with tied shoes and pants, as obviously you're using somethin different than your brain to get through life; sure takes a lot of faith to find the courage to be sucha public ass."
But I'm afraid he really meant what he said. That the belief in immortal forces that occupy our brain and need to be cleansed through telepathic contact with a dead person who also created the entire universe just for you is admirable. Sickening.
Depends on your ethics.
Ethical: Broke a binding promise made to his wife (if his was an open marriage, depends on marital status / openness of the others)
Not so Ethical: Got caught at it.
Snore.
Who the hell is this Tiger Woods, anyway? More importantly, when will science news resume? I hate these goddamned holidays.
correction: he doesn't admire his faith explicitly, but his "caring for someone's soul".
Which doesn't lower the galloping superstition quotient a bit.
@ sqlrob: Sounds eerily close to the New Republican Morality...i.e, it isn't unethical unless, or until, you get caught.
In other words, it's not the deed itself that brings one's morals (or lack thereof) into question, that can only occur if, or when, the (mis)deed is exposed to public scrutiny.
Viva la C Street!
What is stupid is a person under as much public scrutiny as he is, expecting to get away with the behavior that has been described. Eventually, this sort of stuff comes out and the media will gorge itself on it like a tick on a dog. Personally, I think his actions were also wrong. While wrong isn't always stupid, in this case his actions were both.
IMHO, if that's your ethics, you're not ethical. Yet you're right, that does seem to be the "ethics" of C Street and others in politics.
I, for one, would never cheat on my wife. I consider my word binding. I also couldn't do something like an open marriage, I'm very monogamous. Hell, I couldn't date more than one person at a time back in my dating days.
But no, moralsncome from god and there's no way an atheist can be moral. /me rolls eyes.
@sqlrob: I guess your earlier response confused me. I quote--"Not so Ethical: Got caught at it."
I'll now guess you were being a bit tongue-in-cheek when you wrote that?
And btw, I too would never cheat on my wife (if I were still married). And I say that not because I know the pain of being on the wrong end of that ethical dilemma. I just am not cut out that way...and no ridiculous superstition had anything to do with that.
Well, I hate to say it, but Hume has a point this time around.
It's kind of confusing because he left off the predicate to "forgiveness and redemption". Forgiveness from whom? Redemption in whose eyes?
In an ideal world, Tiger would be seeking forgiveness and redemption from his wife, his mistresses and possibly God, and everyone else would be pretending not to know about it. Buddhism is a good choice of religions in that situation, because you don't need to worry about what God thinks, which gives you more time to focus on your wife and mistresses.
But we live in a fallen world, so Tiger also has to worry about getting forgiveness from his corporate sponsors. "I've converted to Christianity and turned my back on my former wickedness" has a pretty solid history in the US market...it's not as effective as it used to be, but it's still got a good chance of winning back a couple of endorsement contracts. Now, I think the Buddhist equivalent is, "I've realized that my entanglement with the pleasures of the material world has slowed my progress towards Enlightenment". I guess we could run it past some focus groups, but my gut feeling is that it would make the advertisers even more nervous than they are already.
mazement you do have a point. If Tiger wants the most effective way to look like he's "repenting" to the majority of what made up his fans, pulling out the "I've converted to Christianity and turned my back on my former wickedness" would be a pretty good way to do it.
It would be totally bullshit, but it would appeal to a large portion of his fans (statistics pulled out of my ass).
Why can't Tiger (or anyone else in a similar situation) just deal with those that he actually hurt...you know, the ones that actually exist?
Being a stand up person does not require a crutch...no matter who's crutch one may choose.
Mazement, please let us know from what perch has this world fallen from.
Well that would be good, but then where are his gigantic paychecks going to come from?
He needs to get a strategist on this issue to decide exactly what the best plan is for making all the golf fans and sponsors happy too.
@RevBDC: Excellent advice--and one Tiger's already obscene wallet should heed.
And since when has total bullshit hindered any god-fearing christian from exploiting his fellow man?
Aquaria @ 57;
You make a good point. Race is at the very heart of this whole media circus. The Faux 'journalists' are probably extra-specially angry that Tiger Woods not only had sex with White women (gasp! *clutches pearls*), but that he cheated on his White wife. Cue the usual, revoltingly racist stereoptypes about all black men being animals who cannot control their urges.
I hate Faux News. I really do.
um, never?
Oh please !
It couldn't just be "megarich sports personality with global media representation and paraphernalia selling enterprise caught out cheating" ?
No, couldn't possibly be that, has to be race? You guys sometimes really overdo it.....
Yeah I don't see race being a big part of this. This is the most famous golfer in the world if not famous sports figure in the world period. He's always had a squeaky clean image and you rarely heard about his private life. The fact that a big rich sports guy cheats on his wife isn't big news, but the fact that this sports personality did is "news". And the depth of the story makes it that much more titillating to the the celebrity fuck-up obsessed media these days.
IMHO race has only a small part to play in this and even then it's only with some very fringe elements.
I don't know... I'm not going to completely dismiss a racially motivated angle to the whole media frenzy, but I also think laying it all at the feet of racist motivation of being a little too presumptuous.
This is not just an average African-american sports star we're talking about. This is the very face of an industry and one of, if not the, most recognizable names and faces in sports.
He is an uber-celebrity of the highest order, on par with Jordan, and I think that while being a man of color plays some part in the level and intensity of the coverage and scrutiny, I think to say it's all about race is being too judgmental.
The intensity of the fallout here has as much to do with his own carefully constructed image as a clean-cut, high integrity individual as it does with the fact that he's african-american, in my opinion.
I'm trying to think of a comparable white athlete / superstar to ask the question of whether I think the coverage would be the same. But I'm having trouble coming up with someone on par with Tiger in terms of popularity and importance to not only the specific venue which he is attached (golf), but as a pop icon as well.
Names that come to mind might include Tom Brady and Peyton Manning... although they don't come anywhere near having the same cache as a Tiger Woods. If this were the mid 80's Larry Bird might fit the bill, but that was a different time and the media frenzy wasn't anything like what it is today...
I dunno... I'm having a hard time finding anyone of non-minority that can equal Tiger's status. And I think while it would be naive to think that race plays no part in the media coverage and response, I also think the coverage is a direct reflection of that status, and to blame it squarely on race is unfair and narrow-sighted.
Although Fox "News" (chortle) is guilty of stoking the fires of racial hatred many times over, I don't see it in this particular instance.
This is nothing more than a voyeuristic press being titillated by a (and in turn, titillating a depraved audience) major personalities misfortune and subsequent fall from grace--(and isn't this SOP for our new journalistic standards, afterall?)--I say "nothing more than" but that sort of behaviour is very nearly as vulgar as race baiting.
"No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path." --Siddhartha from Dhammapada verse 165
How about this...
If the same exact situation occurred with Derek Jeter, another extremely popular athlete and icon of mixed race with a clean-cut, high integrity image... would the coverage be the same?
In my opinion, no... because Jeter, while quite popular in his own right, is not anywhere near the star and pop-culture icon that Tiger is...
If you think the coverage would be just as intense with Jeter, then I guess you might be able to play the race card... but if you really believe, as I do, that the coverage would be orders of magnitude less, especially outside of the sports world, then you have to soften the position that race plays such a huge role in this particular issue.
You know, I wish I felt comfortable dismissing the racial aspect of this. However, it does play into the racial stereotypes, and after all, what aspects of their surveilance of Martin Luther King did the FBI choose to emphasize?
There are a whole lot of white males in the US who probably haven't been able to get it up since Obama won the Presidency. Like Rush Limbaugh, they are praying he will fail. In his stead, a massive screw-up by another massively successful (partly) African American might asuage their battered white manhood.
"No, couldn't possibly be that, has to be race? You guys sometimes really overdo it....."
I presume the people who take this opinion are white. Such refusal to deal with the obvious racism in this issue couldn't possibly be because racism isn't their particular concern. No, it couldn't possible be that, it has to be that people who do see it and want to talk about it are overreacting. Wow.
C'mon now. It's not at all hard to see racist stereotypes playing themselves out in this coverage. No one is saying that is the ONLY reason - it's clear it's merely a part of what's happening.
It's reminding me of how there are countless reports virtually every single day of men murdering their family members, but when it's a woman, the news makes damn sure we never forget her name.
I suppose that's just me overdoing it, too.
a.r.i.d.s. -
I wouldn't say we should dismiss the racial angle entirely, as I'm quite sure there are many in the media (and certainly in the far right-wing media) who are just beside themselves with glee, joyful to see such a successful man of color fail so spectacularly and so publicly.
However I just caution against over-playing that aspect to the point where we are saying it's all about race. I think that's over-stating it. See my Jeter example above.
Endor -
Are you then positing that race is at the very heart of the level and intensity of the media coverage, as Gregory Greenwood first claimed at #82?
Or are you just making the statement that dismissing a racist angle to this issue is naive and ignorant?
What do you think of my Jeter comparison above?
Well, maybe he is. It's not like we'd actually know. In the case of the last one on your list, that's sort of predicated on such a thing existing, no?
That's one of the wonderful things about the absolution of sins that every christian gets to enjoy... not only is it a wonderful way of pre-absolving yourself for any wrong-doing, there's positively no way to ever know if the magic sky daddy accepts your apology, so of course in the absence of actual repudiation, it's just assumed that the act of contrition is accepted. How marvelously convenient for those wishing to do evil things with a clear conscience.
ROTFLMAO!!!
Cut him some slack. If I had "Brit" as my name, I'd go crazy, too!
Odd perhaps, but widespread.
Ingenious. I need to remember this.
What are they then?
That may well be, but it is Faux Noise we're talking about. Poe's Law, you know.
Frankly I was referring to the entire media's handling of the story, not just Fox (Yes I understand the original post).
Celtic Evolution,
I think the Jeter example may not quite catch the significance of Tiger. I mean, we're talking golf, here, which until Tiger (Lee Trevino notwithstanding) was about as lilly white a pastime as bass fishing and much more upscale! Woods became the first sports billionaire.
I just remember talking to some old cracker one time in N. Carolina and watching the tears well up in his eyes as he said (to a very successful, lilly white physicist, mind you), "There's just no place in America for the white man anymore." Damn, I thought. Well, maybe the white man who never learned dental hygeine... Yes, I agree, it is easy to overplay the race card, but it's also a mistake to think it is no longer in play.
Janine - There are only two perches Mazements world could have fallen from, either the tree of life or the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So thoughtful of god to bring evil into the world.
Also, wrt Sri Lanka. I just got back from Sri Lanka a bit less than 2 months ago. While I agree that the 30-year civil war there was more ethnic than religious, it would be a mistake to think that religion played no role. Sri Lanka has always regarded itself as a bastion of "pure" Buddhism. The monks are extremely influential and were among the strongest agitators against compromise with the Tamils.
Sri Lanka was the first place I ever came across a "fundie" Buddhist.
And on the other side...well the Tigers were the ones who pioneered the use of suicide vests. You don't get that type of fanaticism without some sort of belief in another life.
FWIW, the island is pretty peaceful and virtually euphoric over the end of the war. The President has tried to build a cult of personality around himself as the victorious warrior. The general who engineered the victory has decided to run against him for the presidency. And pretty much all the grievances the Tamils had that drove them to take up arms still remain...
Well, I think that's sort of the point I was making. The reason for the intensity of the coverage and scrutiny Tiger is getting has far more to do with his status as a cultural icon than it does his race. That's why I used the Jeter example. They are very much the same in almost every aspect: High-profile athletes of mixed race with clean-cut images under some of the largest spotlights.
Yet the coverage of Jeter doing the same thing as Tiger would be orders of magnitude less, because his cultural status nowhere near approaches that of Tiger.
So if the racial aspects are the same between both persons but the coverage for the same actions would differ, there is much more than simply race going on, no?
Again, please don't misread me as completely dismissing race as a factor. To do so would be silly and naive, I think. I think it certainly does play a role. I'm just not convinced it's "at the heart of the matter".
Hmmm, maybe I overstated the significance of race as being 'at the very heart' of the coverage. Maybe it is largely motivated by a peurile fascination with the salacious. I still think that race played a significant part, though. Especially since many right wing nuts will see this episode as validating their hard held race stereotypes.
I still hate Faux News, thought. I hate it so very, very much.
Well put... I would agree with that.
I agree with this as well.
Goes without saying...
CE,
I just remember how racialized the whole OJ thing got. It wasn't just that society turned on him (he was a murderer, after all), it was how they racialized him again. And he, or at least one of his lawyers, was smart enough to pick up on that tide and ride it to acquittal.
In many ways, this has the same sort of feel to it.
a.r.i.d.s. #104
Hmmm... ok... that's an interesting comparison.
I remember that time very well... and I remember there being a very clear racial divide in the population over the OJ case...
I do know that the OJ trial came about just about the time that the media had just started to become the court-tv, reality TV, sensationalized, voyeuristic entity it has now evolved into.
When the OJ trial was taking place, I don't think anyone had ever seen that level of total media saturation before.
And while it's patently obvious that the OJ trial was a racism powder-keg amongst the general public, I'm not sure it was the media coverage that made it so.
But I also can't sit here and say that I know for certain that if it were, say, Terry Bradshaw (being an equally famous athlete of the same era), it would have received the same coverage. I think it probably wouldn't have in truth... so in that case, your point is certainly valid.
I don't know... it's not an easy thing to discern... but it's just my observation and opinion (such as it is) that the larger part of the reason for the coverage the Tiger thing is receiving is due to his cultural status more than any other single aspect, including his race.
Oh I fully remember but I think these two episodes, beyond the fact that there was some African American race shared, are very very different and comparing them isn't really that even.
OJ was from nearly 20 years ago, his main fame coming years if not decades before that in a much more racially charged time.... oh and he murdered two people.
Tiger is [was] a worldwide phenomenon much more famous than OJ ever was, comes from a different time, and cheated on his wife. That's not excusing it but the two instances are completely different.
The courtroom was racially charged because OJ and his lawyers were trying to "save his life" and there was a [legitimate or not] question of guilt.
Tiger has pretty much admitted to at least some of the charges of infidelity and the actions of his wife support that.
I'm not excusing that race plays some part in this but in my opinion the fact that he is arguably the most famous sports personality in the world (possibly ever) along with the squeaky clean front that was put forth by him and his connections with international corporations and that he stayed out of the public eye when it came to his personal life are much larger factors in the "oh my god what the fuck is going on with tiger" faux shock that the media across the world expressed and is expressing.
That and more and more dirt is coming out that is seemingly being unchallenged from the Tiger camp.
There will always be the racists (Fox could be included) that will use any opportunity to point out a failure of a black and and give a good "you expected this" nudge nudge, wink wink, but the vast scope and scale of the media coverage on this points to the other reasons I listed as far as I can tell.
And anecdotes don't mean shit but even though I am a white male, I grew up in the South working on African American political campaigns Including the racially charged Harvey Gantt vs. Jesse Helms for NC Senator campaign so I think I have at least some small amount of sensitivity to the issue.
But I could be wrong. I can tell you that the PGA sure as hell doesn't like it. Tiger is the bread winner for the sport, and I don't mean just for Tiger. PGA events don't get near the attendance and coverage and hype when Tiger isn't playing.
They need Tiger.
case in point: http://www.womanist-musings.com/2010/01/vanity-fair-tiger-woods-thug.ht…
"Or are you just making the statement that dismissing a racist angle to this issue is naive and ignorant?"
This is what I'm saying. The "you're overreacting" fallacy is obviously an attempt to silence an opinion, but usually does little more than make a display of someone's privilege. "you're overreacting" (and it's variants) is an entirely useless dodge.
Yeah that is an odd choice for a photo at this point but Leibovitz said this about the choice of photos
Tiger is well known for being very focused on being in top shape for his game.
And do we know when this photo was taken? Was be before this whole scandal?
Does a magazine using a bare chested photo of a black man lifting weights mean they are being racist? Does it mean they are when he's involved in a sexual scandal? Or does it mean they are just cashing in on the current events?
Is it racist to report the story that the subject has admitted to the high level view but maybe not the details? Does it make it racist if it uses a sexually charged photo that very well could have been taken before the scandal even was known about? Does reporting on massivley famous black man in a scandal automatically mean there are racist undertones?
Well the photos are from before the incident.
Does Tiger probably regret the photoshoot now?
I would bet yes, but the intent of the photo shoot was most likely nothing more than the typical lets show a bare chested athlete that we've never seen that way before and sell copies.
Does that change the intent of the photos taken before it (see Leibovitz quote above)?
The test of the race angle here is not in comparing woods with other, less successful, minority athletes, but in comparing with white athletes of comparable stature. John Daly was a bad bway too and got nowhere near the level of condemnatiion.
And I find it hard to believe that all other currently top-level golfers are squeaky clean. What is not being reported and why?
Are you seriously comparing the level of fame of John Daly to Tiger Woods?
Plus Daly has always been a royal fuck up. There are instances with him doing stupid shit all the time and they get reported.
But again, are you really going to compare Daly and Woods?
No argument. Thanks for clarifying.
John Daly is a white athlete of comparable stature?
Really?
Total analogy fail...
Well, Brit, for starters it doesn't need it; Buddhism is nontheistic and explicitly teaches that there is no soul, so no one's particularly worried about eternal damnation.
However, for those Buddhists who do feel they need some kind of forgiveness, there's Avaloketishvara (AKA Guan Yin), the bodhisattva of infinite compassion. Similar in many ways to ole JC, only predating him by a century or two. And, depending on whose tradition you review, either male or female, and in both idealized guises rather hot.
Though the Tibetan version is, as usual, a bit odd: It's the Dalai Lama. (Which one? All of them.) So much for the whole "hotness" thing.
And... are you saying that Derek Jeter is a less successful minority athlete? Name me another player in all of MLB over the last 15 years that is more accomplished. Obviously you're not going to find anyone outside of Jordan who is as accomplished as Tiger, he's a once in a lifetime player who has been without peer in his vocation. But I think Jeter is as good a comparison as it gets, especially considering the other similarities of being mixed-race and having the clean-cut, all-american image.
Of course you do. All you need is to believe there's something worth both killing and dying for.
Freedom can be such a thing. Another is a personality cult. Naturally, these are not mutually exclusive (...if one is deep enough into the personality cult).
The PKK, the Stalinist Kurdish Workers' Party, had suicide bombers some 30 years ago. (Many of them women – after all, communism brings equality to all except the party leadership.)
There are WWI monuments in Germany that say "they died so that Germany might live". For that sentiment you don't need to believe in an afterlife. In fact, it gets stronger without it.*
* Don't you remember the "real sacrifice" argument, repeated right here every time an apologist comes and says only Christians/theists can give their life for someone else?
Oh dear. Even I (asportual male) knew a fair number of footballers* before I had ever heard of either Woods or even the entire "sport" of golf itself. Is it that bad in the USA? ~:-)
* Those who use a foot to kick a ball. Soccer players.
Woods is the only golfer I know by name... :-)
Actually, forget about football. What about Muhammad Ali the Greatest?
Then what is reborn? Is there a distinction between soul and spirit like the one that the Apostle Paul tried (and mostly failed) to introduce in Christianity?
~:-|
I said possibly. But being in the age of media we are in, there is a very good argument for Tiger being the most well known Athlete in the world, ever. Ali is up there for sure and footballers, being as popular of a sport as football (soccer) is, are too but judging from the companies that were using his likeness and the amount of travel to events he does it's at least a reasonable argument.
Rev, you're forgetting about Marv Throneberry.
I , too, could care less about Tiger impregnating beautiful women. I want Tiger to spread his genetically superior man-chowder far and wide and perhaps we can "eugenics" our way out of the surplus of religious dunderheads that seem to have a lock on the media. PZ, you're a smart guy, despite your trophy wife, I would be happy if you went around disseminating you pollen to willing stamens as well. Child rearing licenses should be issued to all ppl with IQs over 130. (that means I am in too...)
Actually, I seem to recall hearing/reading that the 'foot' in 'football' refers to the fact that the people playing it are on foot, not that they use their feet to propel the ball - and that's supported (to an extent) in Wikipedia.
With that in mind, one could also point out that a significant number of football (soccer) players spend more of their time lying on the ground feigning injury to milk penalties than they do on their feet...
It's mostly irrelevant to me, though, 'cause I don't really care for any big-ball game; I'm a die-hard test cricket fan - go ahead, see if you can make fun of a game that goes for six and a half hours a day for five days and - as often as not - no-one wins...
Good point, I am.
For good reason, I hate the Mets.
All this hubub, and still no mention of Bertie Wooster or the Duke of Windsor. Tiger Woods simply has no respect for the art of Fair Isle.
Not anymore, but back in the 90s he was probably the most famous golfer. Then his life turned to shit. I think it's a decent analogy.
I learned all about him in religion class. I shit you not.
"Then what is reborn? Is there a distinction between soul and spirit like the one that the Apostle Paul tried (and mostly failed) to introduce in Christianity?"
I'm... not as clear on this as I'd like, but I can answer at least some of this.
Souls, as the West understands the concept, are eternal. The idea of something eternal and unchanging is incorrect to the Buddhists.
I thiiiink what's being reborn is your karma? Though Ir emember enough to know that it's going to depend on who you ask.
I know that the Bodhisattvas of Vajrayana Buddhism (Tibet's) are a bit unusual and more complete then normal.
Please, Daly in his most famous year didn't even sniff the amount of worldwide fame that Tiger currently has.
I think the Rev. is right with this one. I imagine that Happy Gilmour would probably rank higher up the list than John Daly if the public were polled on famous golfers.
Some botanical pedantry @120:
This would be the only known instance of homosexuality in the plant kingdom, even if only metaphorically. Normally pollen works best if it lands on a stigma.
mazement (in #76) is close: What Brit Hume is telling us is that Christians are the ones from whom one buys indulgences. You just pay your fine—after the "sin" looks better; they stopped selling the "before" package a while back—and then you are permitted to do anything you like!
It's a great racket.
(Hume does miss the fact that a few other religions also sell indulgences, although not under that term. But perhaps, as mazement suggests, their sales receipts are not viewed as valid in America. :-) )
Akira McKenzie #31: I've been told, in all seriousness, that the only route to salvation -- the only way to escape from eternal damnation -- is to consciously and deliberately acceptthelordjesuschristasyourpersonalsavior. Everyone who does not do this, I was told, is to be consigned to eternal torment. Everyone -- including people who've never heard of Jesus, profoundly retarded people, tiny children, stillborn infants, miscarriages, and the roughly two-thirds of zygotes that fail to implant in the uterine wall.
All "persons". All with "souls". And all, this individual assured me, consigned to an eternity of abject shrieking torment for failing to do what they were never given an opportunity to do.
This, my interlocutor said, was "God's perfect justice".
And Brit Hume has done it AGAIN...
hmmm, Jesus Christ can offer TW something that he badly needs... What could that possibly be ? Maybe he could get Brit Hume and BillO' to STFU ?
And Brit Hume has done it AGAIN...
Brit Hume may very well be the dumbest person on earth...
Not a real shocker, but world famous idiot Ray Comfort likes Brit Hume's comment.
Redemption vs. Not having a sin in the first place.
That's... not the strongest clarion call I've ever heard. Then again, he's on Fox; What's the betting he knows anything at all about Buddhism?
Also, Ray Comfort... Ray Comfort...
*Wikipedias*
Oh, Banana Boy, what would we do without you and Cam Cam? Don't you have evolution to disprove, by showing us that Cows are delicious and docile?
Chimpy, how long will the statement by sofa king johnson will stay up. Or will it slip by bananaman.
Well if Ray choses to he'll pull out a no true Christian or the old Christians are perfect just forgiven.
Who knows, Ray surprises me with the new ways he comes up with to be astoundingly stupid.
Chimpy, the name has nothing to do with with no true christians. Try reading it out loud.
Or you can read this out loud.
I am
sofa king
retarded
It is sad, I do watch Aqua Teen Hunger Force.
yeah I missed that AND I know that "joke".
I was just talking about his comment.
My job is sucking the life out of me.
@#128, AE gives the correct anther, expressed with style. That AE, a real pistil!
something about carpel tunnel syndrome and I'm done here
I see nothing sad about that. (He said, speaking from the Moon, where we have so many more dimensions than your paltry three.)
Funny, when I first read 386sx' comment that Brit Hume was the dumbest person on earth, I thought there would be many contenders to that title... and the first that came to mind was Ray Comfort.
And then the Rev. found the undeniable evidence :
Ray Comfort IS the dumbest person on earth
And you're sure that's not just an excuse to make American Football count (…while handball is somehow neglected)?
Well, yes, but that's easy to exaggerate – they do injure each other horribly all the time, too. (And themselves, while I am at it!)
More idiocy from Ray Comfort on this subject.
Be less stupid at Buddhism, Comfort. I may not know the exact mechanics of Reincarnation, but I sure as hell know that Buddhism doesn't CALL for redemption because it doesn't call you evil or screwed up!