His class was going to go on a field trip to a museum; his parents denied the trip and scrawled their reasons why on the note.
Note: Just to let you it is not that we don't believe in things like that, it is just misleading when you talk about it being billions of years old, when we all know that the world is only about 6,000 years old. So why would I pay so that you can misslead my children, your world is just a revolving(?), ours has a start and an end. God created the world. He created animals and man all in the same week. It was also Adam who named all the animals, they will do the essay 'Rock and Minerals' but it might not be 5 pages long, and about billions of years, it will be according to the Bible.
That's just sad. And it happens fairly often; a few years ago, our university theater group put on a play about tolerance for local schools, and the notes from parents refusing to allow their kids to see it flooded in. It's just not that often that one of those notes get scanned and put up on Failblog.
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Adam named all the minerals?
Even xenotime-Y?
Now that clearly qualifies as child abuse. That child needs to be removed from those parents before he/she is permanently damaged.
I'm glad the parents care enough to keep the child as ignorant as themselves.
Can't have any of these smart-alecky book-learnin' types around. And we need delinquents.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Do idiots like this really send their kids to public school? I am skeptical of the authenticity of this letter.
Also, at what point does the teaching of nonsense to your kids become child neglect/abuse?
child abuse. people should be jailed for that crap.
What we all know is that those kids are screwed, with parents like that.
But what of all the animals that Adam did not know of and did not name? After the scattering in the aftermath of the Tower Of Babel, weren't most of the people calling animals names that Adam did not give them?
This strengthens the case that we don't need marriage licenses as much as child-rearing licenses - seriously. This type of parent is also very likely to refuse vaccinations or other medical treatment on religious grounds (or 'spiritual' grounds if they happen to be addled newage wankers), behavior that is harmful to more than their own children.
Where is the legal line as far as what you teach your kids? I mean, It's obviously seen as no big deal to teach them that the world is 6000 years old or to teach them to be hateful racists, but what if you were to raise them to speak only Elvish, or Klingon? Raise them to believe that 2+2=42?
Where is the line? Is it completely legal to destroy your child's mind, as long as you don't hurt them physically, or will CPS step in at some point?
PZ, you missed some words in your transcription: "Just to let you it is not that we don't believe in things" should be "Just to let you know it is not that we don't believe in in things"
I wonder how many names are left in Adam's Big Book of Animal Names. At least we'll know when we're close to discovering them all...it's just like Pokemon!
And it was nice of Adam to think ahead and name a lemur after John Cleese.
Ok, there needs to be a breeding program in place. Whether it's by IQ or some basic competency survey, or having a valid high-school education, somehow procreation needs to be regulated. The world has enough people, and way too many stupid people, or people who are simply uneducated and not fit to parent.
The fundies know that children are easily indoctrinated. That's why they love to breed.
Being a fundie is not a genetic trait.
Say NO to government intereference with natural selection. :)
People like this make me wish there was a hell. That is so sad.
@SEF
PZ didn't transcribe this; the transcription is from the failblog site.
Being a fundie does have its correlations with level of intelligence and education, though.
Who says our evolutionary destiny is to maximize intelligence? :p
Most children don't like to ostracize themselves, though. Forcing their children to exclude themselves from these things can be one of the surest paths away from Fundamentalist Christianity. Most children at that age want nothing more than to fit in, and things that get in the way of that are a lot easier to discard.
I was trying to think of ways to parody this...
...but how can you parody a parody of a tragedy?
It just doesn't work very well.
"it is just misleading when you talk about it being billions of years old, when we all know that the world is only about 6,000 years old."
Weren't there a couple of GOP hopefuls in the last presidential election that pretty much said the same thing?
It was also Adam who named all the animals, will do the essay 'Rock and Minerals' but it might not be 5 pages long, and about billions of years, it will be according to the Bible.
Did Adam make up names for the animals in all the languages, or just in English?
I know that some of the science related to the formation of rocks and minerals isn't compatible with Creationism. But I didn't realize that rocks and minerals are so un-Biblical that you can't write 5 pages of non-heretical material about them.
I think having them come to the realization that they've wasted their lives believing a fable, that the church and pastors they trust and love so dearly have lied and swindled them, and that their gullibility is of such a high level that only severe shame is warranted - that would be good enough punishment IMO.
I have to wonder: Did Adam name all the virii and bacterium as well?
Because I can't find any references to them in the Bible at all....
I don't think it's a terribly unwarranted assumption given that it's the only real advantage we have over other species.
So you believe there's such a thing as evolutionary destiny? Tsk tsk. ;o
Abdul,
I'm assuming that comment was directed at me. I never meant to imply that I feel "evolutionary destiny" is to maximize intelligence. As a matter of fact, I find a couple of problems with that comment that I don't care to get into.
What I meant to imply is that I think religion is evil and should be snuffed out of society. Not only the extremists, the moderates as well - I concur with Sam Harris' view about that. I am of the opinion that religion no longer has a useful purpose, and actually fosters evils, in modern societies. Note the topic of this thread.
If your comment was not directed at me, I apologize for my misunderstanding.
Just like genes, ideas change and evolve based on natural selection. Selection systems could be cultural, economic, or even sexual. Individuals carrying certain ideas (like genes) will either be more or less likely to survive and reproduce to pass on those ideas. Unlike genes, however, ideas can be changed. Some individuals will realize that their ideas are detrimental to their survival and will change before passing on those ideas. Therefore, a failing idea will inevitably be selected against and become extinct.
Young Earth Creationism is a failed idea. In this example we are witnessing the few remaining individuals of a doomed sub-species trying to pass on their ideas. It’s perfectly natural for them to do so. It’s just sad to watch when you know it’s ultimately hopeless.
Looks like this is where they were going on their field trip: the Canadian Fossil Discovery Centre, www.discoverfossils.com.
Alec.
I agree religion is evil, but I don't trust anyone to decide for society who will breed.
Sounds like the sara palin book of america. Keep them ignorant and watch out for witches. Thank you.
IMO, in many respects, not so much. When describing reality, complete failure.
Bad ideas look brilliant to the unsophisticated mind.
@ The Science Pundit #15:
I'm unconvinced that that's sufficient reason not to correct it - especially since PZ owns his own copy of it rather than using an HTML trick (eg frame or object tag) to embed it from the source.
Out of respect for this parent---who trusts what "we all know" over academics---I present the following transcript. Unlike the presumptuous FailBlog transcript, mine does not "correct" the spelling, grammar, or punctuation of the original as far as I can make it out.
"Note
Just to let you know it is not that we don't believe in [deleted] in things
like that it is Just misleading when you speak about it being billions
of year old, when we all know that the world is only about 6000 years
old, so why would I pay, so that you can misslead my children, your world is
just a levolving, our's has a start and an end. God created the world
He created animals and man [deleted] all in the same week. It was also
Adam who named all the animals, they will do the essay Rock and minerals, but it
[obscured] not be 5 pages long, and not about billions of year ago it'll be according to the Bible"
That makes my head and my heart ache.
#20
Actually, I think it was all of them. At least, they refused to refute the YECers so they must agree with them.
ThirdMonkey: Just like genes, ideas change and evolve based on natural selection.
Absolutely wrong. Ideas obviously evolve, but not via "natural selection". It's not even analogous.
Natural selection depends on the specifically exponential rate of reproduction, as well as the essentially vertical mode of gene propagation. Neither generally holds for ideas.
They have their own, currently not well understood, modes of evolution.
Other than Huckabee, they were all evasive.
I don't think that's evidence they agree. It's evidence that they don't want to piss off the morons they pander to.
That notion does make me uncomfortable - but something needs to be done. I'm not sure how adverse I would be to some protections for children who's parents made a bad decision when deciding they should have kids and raise them competently. Perhaps somehow bring their education/parenting knowledge and competency up to standards that would increase the chances of that child benefiting society.
I don't mean to imply all religious children grow up to be a drag on society - I am one of them and am happy, healthy, and productive. However, I could have done more. My parents disregarded all of my scientific aptitudes and refused that kind of education to me (while growing up), because, well, it's satan's work.
I can only hope that when the rest of the class return from their field trip they are so vocal about what they have seen that some of it rubs off on the poor kid with the YEC parents and that he takes the first step in wondering that if the whole class thinks something different to his folks that just maybe his folks might not have it entirely right.
#21 touched on the same thoughts I have when Adam's petting zoo story comes up. What did he name pigs? It sure wasn't "pigs" because English wasn't around then. What language did he do the naming in? And since he didn't write them down anywhere that we've been able to find, we'll never know. Maybe it was Pig Latin*. The story is kinda strange though, because it's implied that he had a language of sorts. Apparently it was a language lacking any form of taxonomic designations. Did he name his body parts the next day? Why wasn't that story included? It could have added some much needed comic relief.
* Apologies for the Incredibly Lame Pun.
I would really like to believe that this is a forged note by the kid trying to get out of the assignment rather than the parents really hindering his education. But I am also reminded of the Simpson's episode with Skinner showing Homer and Marge a note that Bart "obviously" forged, but was indeed actually written by Homer.
the lost language of Edenese?
KJV English... If it's good enough for Adam, it's good enough for me.
Saw this yesterday and the first time I read it, I could have sworn it read "... trip to the Discovery Institute ..."
Note to self - read everything at least twice. Getting too old to trust what you see the first time - particularly if it really just isn't making sense.
JC
Do I think it's preordained? No. Do I think that, considering that it's gotten us this far, it's where we're headed? Yes.
It depends entirely on how you define "destiny". It appears I was being slightly more metaphorical than you.
Naming animals:
1. Why did Adam need language at the time? Oh, and when exactly did he learn it?
2. Skipping lightly over these, I wonder if the naming of animals may have been thought to be akin to the power of name in Ursula K LeGuin's Earthsea realm. Perhaps Adam gave them their true name in the Old Speech, the language of the dragons, and thus had power over them. More magic, and so soon after the last lot.
All the animals? All the animals. Hmm.
I dug up a figure of less than 50k vertebrates - so let's assume 50k. Let's also assume it took 5 minutes to find, view, and name each creature (they're all in the garden after all) .
50,000 x 5 = 250,000 minutes = 4167 hours. Assuming he needed 8 hours of sleep (did he need to sleep?) that would be 260 days of naming - without capturing the information with the written word.
Completely believable.
I no longer read the comment threads at failblog, because I could feel the IQ points draining away when I did so. But, since there are currently 1773 comments on that fail, I'm willing to guess the creationists are there, vigorously defending stupidity.
American, just like jeebuss speeched.
There is already a CPS provision for educational neglect in many states... mostly just enforced on the basis of truancy, though, as far as I know.
Moggie @ #48:
It's worth reading the beginning of the comments, though, because there are some excellent geological puns.
Did the kid fail his class because his parents wouldn't let him go on the trip? that seems rather harsh...
The wizards are not naming the objects, that is, claiming dominion over existence. They are learning the names of all objects, that is, learning what the objects are. The mindsets could not be more different.
It has been a long time since I have read the Earthsea series. If I remember correctly, the main character's conflict occurred when he attempted a spell they he had yet learned all he needed in order to control it, thus releasing his shadow nemesis. In other words, his ignorance led to his problems.
You say that like there's another kind.
You should link to those in the undead thread. Many of the cave dwellers there love nuggets like that.
Moggie @ 48
You would indeed be correct that the creationists are out in force over there on failblog. I got through ca. 200 comments before I gave up. On a positive note, there are also a few reality-based posters trying to hold down the fort.
I find that whenever I wander away from a science-based blog, the comments are nearly 3:1 in favour of the absolute retards who can barely string together a sentence.
Quite recently, that happened to me over on TMZ when they posted a video of a student having an on-the-spot debate at UCLA with Comfort on the day of his mangled Origins book launch. I decided to pitch in and have a go, debunking some of the Creationist Bingo™ as it rolled in. Even though I was presenting very polite and cogent responses, not a single poster that I addressed responded in turn. The youth of today just seem to leave their little cut-and-paste troll droppings, and quickly move on to The Next Big Thing©. They collectively have the attention span of a gnat.
Of course, here on Pharyngula where our pelts are sniny, the ratio of trolls to rationalists is virtually reversed.
#48
You needn't scroll very far on the Fail Blog to find this:
"
Aaron says:
January 6, 2010 at 8:13 am
evolution is a philosophy, not science and nowhere near proven fact. You need to look at both sides of the argument and see where the evidence points to and make your decision. Time is the enemy of evolution. If the universe was millions of years old, it would no longer exist because it is proven that the universe is slowing down, i.e. the sun is dying out, the speed of light is slowing down. One question: where are all of the fossils of the creatures in the evolutionary chain and why are we not seeing any obvious signs of evolution today? And before anyone goes and bashes the Bible, maybe you should try reading through it with an impartial attitude. I’m sorry, but most of it is not metaphorical."
Sounds like a typical troll here, nitramnaed. Just wade through the My Reply To Carl Wieland thread. I am sure everyone one of those bullets were shot at least six times each.
@#57 - My brain is bleeding!
I think that's pretty reasonable. Heck, I'd be impressed if the animals could write even one page!
Doh. It was Kirk Cameron, not Ray comfort. Here's the thread on TMZ:
http://www.tmz.com/2009/11/24/kirk-cameron-mauled-by-a-bruin-in-darwin-…
I'm pretty sure PZed put us onto this in the first place... oh yeah:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/11/kirk_cameron_embarrasses_him…
Summer Seale:
Hmm, well agreed of course that the wizards were not creating the names, but knowing and using the true names did give them power over the objects. The origins of the names (except the true names of humans) remained obscure as far as I recall.
Heh, me too. But the idea that it's important and significant to give things names brought it to mind.
@57
Well, the creotard got one thing right in that whole screed. But it's going to be a few billion years yet before it goes red dwarf and swallows us up. Funny that. If god is so all-powerful, then how come he built in an off switch for mankind, his ever-so-special creation? Hmm...
Marge: "Aww, how cute. Let's call this little guy a Groundhog."
Homer: "Sorry, I already gave it a name, 'Land Monster'."
Doh. Red giant. And a few billion years before that even, it's going to fry us. I should pay better attention to what I'm reading in Death From the Skies :-\
"It was also Adam who named all the animals, they will do the essay Rock and minerals, but it
[obscured] not be 5 pages long, and not about billions of year ago it'll be according to the Bible"
This sentence, as it is written, seems to say that the animals will write the essay on Rock and minerals.
I hope the children, or the animals, receive lower grades if their essays are less than five pages long. The length of the essay is part of the assignment, otherwise they could write just one word: "goddidit".
Adam named the animals using the "original Adamic language" that god taught him.* This was really pointless, since the Adamic language became extinct a few years later after the tower of Babel.
*I think I got that phrsse from watching too much xian TV. Adam must have had an incredible memory. After naming a few thousand animals, I think I would forget what names I had already used and start repeating them. I would also get snarky and start naming things beavers or dik-diks or titmice.
The comments on the site are hilarious, if you like dorky, geological humor, that is.
Oh, those poor children. I can only hope that the inevitable teasing they're going to be in for once it gets out why they're not going on the field trip (and you know it will) prompts them to question their parents' backwards and ignorant beliefs.
Reading the comments at Failblog is just asking for a headache. I feel for the few who are trying to inject a semblance of rational thought into that discussion.
#67:
Animal #1
Animal #2
Animal #3...
Tasty
Cute
Scary
Icky
Tasty but scary
Tasty with warm fur...
I too am suspicious of this whole thing. Why blot out the name of the museum? Why is the name of the geolgical society blotted out?
I have no doubt that ignoramus parents of this sort roam freely in the Americas. I do, however, doubt the credibility of this piece.
I want more evidence that it's for real.
~Rev. El
Pastor, WVCSR.org
I expect that the teacher who received this and leaked it to failblog did NOT want to to be identified. How many schools would be going on a field trip to one specific museum on one specific day?
BTW, I don't think the parents denied the trip, just the essay. The signature area has been whited out, as well as the school identifying areas.
It is beyond my comprehension that someone would take the words of the bible as the absolute truth and as a record of the history of the universe.
The is so much real evidence and they close their minds off to it.
We have our share of crappy churches in Australia, but I'm glad there aren't many hardcore fundies(not that I've come across).
Mostly what I've seen invloves people having their belief system on a Sunday and going about life as normal the rest of the time. Picking and choosing what aspects of their religion they will follow.
Has someone asked them how they manage to live so strictly to all the facets of the bible, even the bits that contradict?
If Adam named them all, the names should be in Hebrew/proto-Hebrew, no? Since these people don't use those Hebrew names, they themselves are violating the Adamian nomenclature, so, why not let the kids enjoy the outing.
That's actually pretty easy to understand. Truly.
People hate complicated things, except when they love them. (For the latter, consider conspiracy theorists. I love a good conspiracy, usually for the complexity it brings to something that should be simple.)
Most people want to understand reality. They really do. They want to know the sinews that hold today and tomorrow together. In the realm of science, with the complexities of relativity and quantum uncertainty and deep time evolution, they don't get that. They get a complex mishmash of disciplines, with theories that seem to be completely separate from each other, each more complex than all the others.
Or, they can pick up a book that other well-spoken people claim to be true. They don't even have to read that book! They can just take the authority of those well-spoken people. There are no explanations. There is only certainty. Simple, unexplained, unknowable certainty.
You have that which takes years to comprehend -- the simple epistemology of science. Or you have that which can be taken as truth right now, the even simpler certainty that the Bible is true. Truth given to you by someone you trust, rather than possible propositions that you must then verify by your own intelligence and wit.
Put like that, it seems obvious which is the most appetizing.
Last year I was on the phone with my financial adviser, we were discussing dollar cost averaging and general economy bs, so I said something like, "well I don't believe that's a good theory in this economic environment", and he said it wasn't a "theory" like let's say evolution is a theory (bing, bell rings in my head)...so we have this long discussion of evolution, Darwin, the whole 9 yards, and I finally ask him, how old do you think the earth is, and he says 10,000 years old...long story short...I got a new adviser. Who wants a guy thinking the rapture is right around the corner telling you how to invest your money?
There's a certain amount of that in biology when naming species! But it gets fixed. :-D
It also happens with common names for things. Eg "daddy-long-legs" is used for 3 completely different organisms - a large crane-fly, a spindly-legged non-furry spider and a harvestman.
The spelling of "Centre" in "____ Fossil Discovery Centre" leads me to think that this happened in Canada (there is a Canadian Fossil Discovery Centre in Manitoba - http://www.discoverfossils.com/aboutus.html ). the word "Canadian" would fit well into the blurred-out space.
There are plenty of fundies in mostly-rural Manitoba, which shares a border with the U.S.
[quote]But I didn't realize that rocks and minerals are so un-Biblical that you can't write 5 pages of non-heretical material about them.[/quote]
It actually probably is, if you're a YEC. Think about it. You can't talk about the processes by which the rocks formed, because the timescales on them conflict with YEC-ism. You can't talk about why they're found where they are. You can't talk about erosive and depositional processes on any sort of time scale that makes sense.
So if you're trying to write a paper about rocks as a YEC, you're stuck basically listing the most trivial physical or chemical properties of a laundry list of disconnected substances with no unifying narrative. Even if you inject bits of the biblical narrative, there's still just not enough there to make a readable or interesting paper (not that the parent seems the type to concern him/herself with such petty things as readability).
It's sort of like trying to write a five-page paper about animals without referencing evolution, except that you're talking about lifeless inanimate objects.
It's heartbreaking. It truly is.
However, I don't hold with this talk of child abuse and parenting requirements. Unless they are teaching kids something truly horrific and anti-social, such as homobashing or racism, parents should be free to screw up their kids' lives.
I'm reminded of the truth of Philip Larkin's 'This Be the Verse':
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.
Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.
Yours,
- Lee Brimmicombe-Wood
Sorry, html tag fail there!
It's sad. Let's hope is that when this kid rebels in the next few years he/she will find some friends who realize his/her plight and help advance his/her thinking.
Creationists have had no trouble advancing from the flat earth to the round earth and the earth as center of the universe to earth orbiting the sun within one galaxy of billions, all of which are in conflict with the Biblical account.
It's as though they teach their kids addition and subtraction, but are offended when they are introduced to multiplication and division.
In my experience, what happens is that the kids go off to college and grow up, but not enough.
It's more than sad. Fortunately it's a small minority becoming smaller.
percyprune@81: My situation and sentiments exactly. And no, I didn't reproduce. (that I know of)
BS
I tried to step in when a woman wrote a blog entry calling her own four year old daughter wretched and sinful, and proudly reporting how the little girl cried when she understood that she wasn't good enough for Jesus.
Some people in her country who I contacted called child service and sent them the blog address. Child services actually rang her up personally and took a look around, but apparently children being turned into emotional wrecks wasn't such a big deal.
In one of her recent posts however, she states that she has quit her job as mental health nurse (!), and is now fulfilling her Biblical role as housekeeper. Also, which I am the most glad about, she has been denied the rights to homeschool her daughter (if because of our action we'll never know, but from how she worded her post it seems probable) and is sending the girl to public school, which she claims she's now quite happy with.
Hey Pope Ratzy had an Epiphany 6 Jan 2010.
He said we humans think we know it all and that science has the answers and that is just so wrong because the Baby Jesus does and science without god in it is like stupid and we best turn back the way of the cross because we are like so secular and stuff!
Well he is the top poo-pah so he should know. Heck his shoes cost more than my car I bet.
I'm convinced .. my next doctor best have a degree in theology - heck my mechanic ought to too!
Why it ain't like Jesus and the prophets before him didn't tell us about stuff like germ theory and how to avoid having silly wars over fossil fuels.. you know the things we should know.
Ratzy says it - I believe it - that's good enough for me.
(My point they are all alike - it is simply a matter of degree and finesse)
@ Summer Seale #23 and Margaret #62:
However there are plenty of microbial references (taken from work by George Javor):
Bread (leavened barley or wheat) is mentioned 335 times in the KJV as in Genesis 14:18 "And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine"
Boils 23 times as in II Kings 20: 6 "And Isaiah said, Take a lump of figs. And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered."
Cheese 3 times as in Job 10:10 "Did you not pour me out like milk and curdle me like cheese" (the curdling care of something like lactobacilli)
Dysentery (bloody flux) in Acts 28: 7, 8
65 counts of leprosy as in II Chronicles 26: 19
Mildew 5 times as in Amos 4:9 "I have smitten you with blasting and mildew: when your gardens and your vineyards and your fig trees increased, the palmerworm devoured them: yet have ye not returned unto me..."
and multiple references to pestilence, plague, wine, vinegar, yeast, beer ("strong drink" so obviously not American!), fever, tuberculosis ("consumption"), etc.
Oldfuzz @83:
Actually, there are some apparently serious (non-Poe) sites that favor the geocentric model for religious reasons. I even found one that has the universe inside a sphere with the Earth mapped onto the inner surface of the sphere.
Dear Parents,
This is a warning. The grade 6 and 7 students are planning a field trip to the Fossil Museum, where science is taught and questioned. If you want to stunt your child's intellectual development and allow him or her to remain stuck with you and your Bible-soaked moron friends in a state of permanent religious ignorance, then do let, we repeat, DO NOT, let your child go near the Fossil Museum on February 22.
That's better.
Copernicus #87 ... of course it wasn't like the Indo-peoples, Egyptians, Greeks, etc. weren't doing the wine and beer thing, or making bread, or did not have the know-hows and comments on the things you mentioned before the goat herders of the OT
Just saying
We had something similar happen at the elementary school where I was a PTO President. We had an author, Leslea Newman, come to speak to the student body about her book about a very loyal dog in Japan. One parent googled her and found out she was also the author of Heather has Two Mommies and HAD A COW. The parent sent letters to all her fellow Fundies. The whole thing got so blown out of proportion The Washington Times even got on board criticizing the administration and PTO for bringing her in to speak. (This occurred in a DC suburb.)
Thankfully the school board and the administration were reasonable and allowed her to come, but told parents to send in a letter if they wanted to opt their children out of hearing the assembly (remember- it was on JAPAN.) In the end, some parents came up to me and said they were ashamed for opting out their children, for they looked foolish and bigoted. Not all, however. One parent was mad at me for requiring her to tell her daughter what a lesbian was. The horror!
Denise in Woodbridge
ConcernedJoe,
I totally agree with your sentiment! What I was intending was to show that references in the OT did in fact exist (as the contention was "I can't find any references to them in the Bible at all") and also to obliquely address the passage quoted by Nitramnaed @ #57 where a commenter on the Failblog thread declares: "maybe you should try reading through it"... think I did that already!
@ Denise in Woodbridge #91
DC Public School Health Standards, Strand 1 under Sexuality, Reproduction & Health:
[students will be able to] "explain that people, regardless of biological sex, gender, ability, sexual orientation, gender identity, and culture, have sexual feelings and the need for love, affection, and physical intimacy."
@#17...
I say it could be so much more.
This was Prince William. I'm not a teacher, was just the PTO President, but apparently "I was promoting my liberal agenda!" I only wrote the check, mind you. Did not decide to have her speak, which again was about a dog in Japan...
Denise in Woodbridge
If Adam named all the bacteria, he either must have been hanging around a long time, or the earth is even younger than 6000 years. For example:
Yersinia pestis, named after Alexandre Yersin (1863-1943)
Pasteurella multocida, named after Louis Pasteur (1822-1895)
Escherichia coli, named after Theodor Escherich (1851-1911)
Neisseria gonorrheae, named after Albert Neisser (1855-1911)
That Adam was one amazing dude!
Adam must have been having a complete lend when he named Fukuiraptor then.
..and what's with the Latin name for the earwig and the (unlikely to be coincidence)number of biological nomenclature that have the word "penis" in them?? I reckon that Adam bloke might not have been the clean cut, nerdy-boy the OT says he was.
Bit of a Benny Hill dirty lad more likely.
Denise, that's because Prince William County Public Schools don't have any references to sex eduction anywhere in their Health Curriculum but give parents advice on which books to buy for themselves when eduacting their own children- even at 4th and 6th grades, the only references to understanding communicable diseases are to "influenza, strep throat, and Rocky Mountain spotted fever"! All the way up to and including 12th grade there is no curricular content that deals with HIV/AIDS!
Ooops, I probably should clarify I meant the Lesser Earwig found here in Australia. The Labia minor (Linnaeus). As far as I'm aware the other Earwigs don't have names anywhere near as humourous or able to elicit snorts of laughter when your 6th Form teacher is trying to teach you some serious biology.
@ Copernicus...wow. I didn't even realize and my oldest is in 11th grade. Good thing we did the Sex Ed program (OWL) in the UU church.
Not that I didn't do the teaching myself.
Prince William can be a bit back woods. Compare that to what you posted about DC. Still struggles to be a part of NoVA.
@black-wolf72 #85
I remember reading about that through the Atheist in a Minivan blog and always wondered what, if anything, was done to help the little girl. Thanks for the update.
Well I sent PZ this link this morning. I like to think it was MY email he posted. you never know but I can only dream.
thanks PZ!
Well, you know, we wouldn't want anybody's children exposed to reality, even accidentally. It could lead to . . . Gasp! . . . thinking!
@percyprune (#81)
I hear this repeated quite often, and I'm tempted to repeat it myself. The question is, why? Why does the right of a parent to raise their child trump the right of a child to not be screwed up? Why does this parent have the right to deny their child a real education?
@thomas.c.galvin
For the simple reason that in the US legal system, children are de-facto property. Crude, but it's the truth. While we might debate how screwed up someone can be and still be able to function socially, clearly being a YEC doesn't result in citizens who can't pay taxes, hold a job, or mow their lawn. It's all about the lowest common denominator society is willing to accept.
And in a way, I'm grudgingly okay with that distinction if it prevents government from deciding who is fit for reproduction. Do I secretly wish that YECs weren't able to vote or reproduce? Certainly. But knowing that I was able to escape my mind virus (as many of us here did), I'm willing to suffer through a protracted death of religion through reason and enlightenment rather than a swift one by oppression and martyr-making.
The first thread of comments there is priceless like chgo_liz said. I'm sure I've seen the longest pun-replies in some threads over there. The commenters are usually very funny. They just got infiltrated by creobots.
For those not in the know, (OWL) stands for Onanism With Love.
or maybe not ...
@Tony (#105)
This is true, but it's also the assumption that's bothering me. Parents talk about the right to raise "their" kids, but those kids have the same rights as we do. A child shouldn't be subjected to brainwashing because of a parent's "rights."
On the other hand, if I had kids, and someone tried to tell me how to raise them, I'd raise holy hell.
Like I said in a different thread, I don't like single points of failure, and that's what the government is. It's easy to sit here and say "the government should do something about these creationist idiots," but those creationist idiots are saying the same thing about us.
No easy answers.
Clearly child abuse. A parent should enable their child to learn as much as possible. This is shameful.
Homophobic? Frequently. Hypocritical? Invariably. Deeply ignorant of the real teachings of the true, mystical, renegade, anti-authority Jesus, who was about as far from the modern Pentecostal evangelical fundamentalist organized-religion worldview as a vegan from a Kansas slaughterhouse? You already know the answer.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2010/01/08/notes010810…
Sarah Palin could have written that note. If fact she might have.
So could most of what is left of the GOP.
It is not necessarily all that bad. Kids sometimes rebel from those sorts of environments and end up more normal. It isn't like the fundies have anything to offer them.
Unfortunately some end up permanently Zombified. Those are the ones we call "trolls" on the internet.
If Adam named all the animals where are those names? Why don't we know what their names are?
What is the original Hebrew for kangaroo?
Why did Lineaus and a few tens of thousands of taxonomists have to discover and name the animals?
How come we are still discovering animals without names that no one has ever seen before? The number of species isn't known but it is somewhere around 50 to 80 million.
How come 99% of all the animals that Adam named and we had to rename are extinct?
For extra credit, did Adam name the protozoans and other single celled eukaryotes? Is Amoeba and Paramecium Hebrew? Did he name the bacteria and archeobacteria?
The kid might grow up mentally crippled, he might not.
Where I went to school once, someone attacked a few women at random. Things went downhill when someone stabbed a woman to death.
It was a home schooled fundie kid from some god forsaken cult. Everyone said it didn't make sense. Bullcrap!!! He was a kid mentally warped by a weird religious upbringing who couldn't handle the outside world at a university. Probably the closest he ever got to a girl was the one he stuck a knife in.
You fail Latin forever!
Adam named all the animals 'Murray' to save time.
Gottcha Copernicus #92 - thanks for clarifying the record.
Quite the opposite actually.
The cost of clearing up the mess of his life will be large. It won't be the parents who pay it.
Because, as people have noted, it is the law. Years of jurisprudence have focussed on the role of parent as guardian, fulfilling the role of care taker, and assumes they are best-placed--rather than, say, church or state--to make decisions about the moral upbringing of the child.
Now, we know this is not always so. Parents can do horrific things to their kids. And certainly their influence can screw with their kids' minds. But as a parent myself I like to assume that the great majority of parents muddle through doing a fairly decent job. And I'm not sure I'd want the law changed to protect against a minority of bad parents if doing so restricts my latitude to make decisions on upbringing.
I wish people would stop saying it's hopeless, because it's not. It might take more time than one would like, and it might take more effort than you personally are willing to put in, but it's most definitely not hopeless. Saying it is condemns them to staying in that mindset.
Wait, sorry ThirdMonkey. I was reading while tired and missed that you were saying Creationism was hopeless, not the Creationists. My error.
Eidolon @88:
Cellular Cosmology! I live two miles away from an abandoned village that used to follow that theology. They died out not too long ago.
I hope you're not implying that people still follow that...
The child's parents should be prosecuted for child abuse (by denying him access to a proper education), and the child should be put in the custody of foster parents who are not religiously deranged.
Anomic Entropy #101,
@black-wolf72 #85
I remember reading about that through the Atheist in a Minivan blog and always wondered what, if anything, was done to help the little girl. Thanks for the update.
Thanks, my pleasure. I'm glad that people still remember. We also had a thread that I opened at rdnet back then. I just skipped over to the woman's blog recently, to see what she was doing now, and as I said I was pleasantly surprised. She hasn't changed in her basic ideology, but she does seem to be more relaxed and positive now.
@percyprune #118:
While true, this does not preclude the possibility of minimum standards for parenting. If you can't raise your child to these minimum standards, someone else will do it for you. We just need to eliminate the idea that "Mommy knows best" which seems to fester throughout the court system.
"The fundies know that children are easily indoctrinated." They know because they indoctrinate their children, and would love the opportunity to indoctrinate yours, as well. This is why they find it so hard to believe that homosexuals aren't indoctrinating children: that's what they would do, after all, so wouldn't everyone do it, too?
But who sets those standards? Church or state?
Certainly in the UK and Sweden (where I currently live) minimum standards *are* set. Though they usually focus on the welfare of the child in terms of security, nutrition, basic educational standards such as literacy and numeracy, and so-on. A parent who beats their child insensible or neglects them will have them taken away.
Where I think there is a slippery slope is when it comes to indoctrination and moral education. I want both church and state kept well out of these areas, but obviously cannot prevent the church getting in by the back door via the parents. I would oppose legislating such things, however, lest it give church or state a backdoor to *my* kid.
As recently as fifty years ago (give or take a decade), Christians could have passed laws removing children from professed atheist parents, siting the same reasons some of the posters here are using...and it probably would have passed easily. Of course, this did not happen, but that is probably more due to the fact that mental/emotional abuse was not recognized then as it is today. (I do not have any evidence to back this claim, of course, but I do have memories of growing up in the bible belt at that time...and I feel fairly confident to make this claim.)
Calls to remove children from parents based solely on the evidence that they hold contrary views tells me that some of you have more in common with the fundies than you think.
Taking children from parents is, of course, necessary at times, but I believe that this "slippery-slope" argument has some merit. Once we start down this road, where will it end? Who gets to decide if parents' beliefs are dangerous to children?
The Amish live a lifestyle I find intellectually and emotionally stunting....but I do not advocate marching in and taking their children away from them.
I feel sorry for the children in cases like this, and I am sad that these children will be years behind their peers, educationally speaking. However, this alone is not a reason to take children from their parents.
Our world is just "revolving"? What the hell? Is that a typo, or some new twist on evolution?
Isn't this some kind of child abuse?
Idiots!
Well said Kenbo. And as I've already mentioned, the fact that there are plenty of atheists who outgrew the lies is some consolation. Those folks who are calling for CPS to come take these kids away want to substitute nanny government for retarded parents. That's not a fair trade IMO because it subjects ME to the public whim of who qualifies as the lowest common denominator. Yeah, some people are idiots and shouldn't reproduce. But just like you have to tolerate speech you don't like, you have to tolerate shit parenting. Oppose it with all your might, but don't start legislating parenting standards. It's your own rights and the rights of your progeny that you're protecting by doing so.
Atheists are among the least trusted groups in America. Given that such government parenting standards would likely be set by officials seeking to match or appease public opinion, I'm not in favor of being dumped in the lowest caste if this system were implemented. And even if the public opinion was reversed, I can think of a lot of other behavior to which I'd rather not see kids exposed. Infants at Walmart at 1am? McDonald's for lunch every day? Home schooling?
I think the rule is that you're a fail parent if you do permanent irreversible harm. Religious indoctrination clearly is reversible, but its status as harm is not recognized because of a minority of whackos who take things way too far. We're also not going to get people's kids taken away for circumcising them despite my opinion that that qualifies. Getting to the point where we can agree that religion IS harmful is much more constructive than shouting for government meddling in outrage.
If this kid manages not to grow up into a total dumbass, it won't be for lack of his parents' trying.
#23, if they aren't in the Bible, they must not exist. Guess we're back to demonic possession causing disease. Germ theory is just a theory.;)
Of course demons cause disease! No-one's ever seen a germ. There's no evidence for germs. Litttle invisible demons? Don't be silly!!!1! Real demons are usually invisible, but when they choose to manifest themselves, they are huge horned creatures with a zillion tentacles. Just look at Professional Poopyhead Litte Ped Zed.
Eidolon@88 "...there are some apparently serious (non-Poe) sites that favor the geocentric model for religious reasons..."
No doubt. Most of us get to our intellectual limit, real or imagined, eventually. I'm betting Aristotle and Ptolemy are smiling in their graves at this. Thanks for not posting the links. I waste enough of my life on the unimportant.
26% of the fundies are Geocentrists. 20% of the US population are Geocentrists.
It's only been 500 years since Copernicus. Does anyone expect basic astronomy to have made it all the way to fundieland in only 5 centuries?
There are still a few flat earthers around as well.
PS Yes, these are real numbers. Source, wikipedia Modern Geocentrism. The truth can be stranger than people can imagine sometimes.
PSS It says in the NT that xians can move mountains by prayer alone. No one has ever seen it though. And also get bit by venomous snakes and drink poison without anything happening. Snake handlers who do get bit usually show some disability or die. And oh yeah, heal diseases by prayer. Which is why fundies have lower life expectancies than the general population. That inerrant bible sure got a huge amount of stuff wrong.
Dammit, raven beat me to it. The statistic I found relating to belief in geocentrism was in the same ballpark with yours:
@percyprune (#126)
This is the big issue. If we give the government the power to stop people from raising kids as creationists, we give the government the power to stop people from raising them as evolutionists, as well. And if the creotards get power, you know damn well they would try.
A teabagger in the making. Sad.