I'm still digging out from under the pile of neglected email that accumulated during my extended travels. I'm also still dealing with my disrupted physiology from all the zipping and the flying and the carousing and the glaven-hey, so cut me some slack, OK? Anyway, here are a few things that popped up that looked interesting, but that I'll have to just quickly announce to clear them from my to-do list. I'll let you sort through them.
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The city council of Fresno is feeling some heat: the Central Valley Alliance of Atheists and Skeptics is trying to end the practice of prayer before meetings. This isn't just generic non-denominational prayer, either; it's very jesus-christy.
Wait a minute…the mayor is named Swearengin? I wonder if they have another problem…
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From 22 February to the 26th, Oxford University is holding a series of free lectures called Think Week. Looks provocative. Wish I could be there.
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The NCSE has posted a short article listing Five Reasons Why Evolution Is Important. It's a nice article on some medical motivations to study evolution, but the Huffington Post? That den of lunacy and woo? I feel tainted now. NCSE alongside the likes of Robert Lanza and Dana Ullman? They should feel dirty, too.
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Remember that very stupid article about how liberals are so condescending? It turns out that wasn't just some wingnut penning a screed and sending it in to the Washington Post and getting lucky: the Post actively commissioned the right-wing brain-puke. Gotta love that liberal media.
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Lindsay Beyerstein has a well-balanced piece on a recent accusation that 18th century pioneers of obstetrics were butchers who murdered women. I'm inclined to say that they were — birthing wards of that era were horrors, where doctors with no knowledge of hygiene would wander from bed to bed spreading pus and filth around. But this specific accusation that Hunter and Smellie had pregnant women intentionally murdered to provide cadavers for their textbooks doesn't sound likely.
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Although I would never say doctors are automatically innocent. A doctor in Texas was peddling herbal crap on the side, got reported, and retaliated by charging the whistleblowers with a crime. Oh, well…at least we can console ourselves with the idea that he wasn't really a doctor, but just a fraud with an M.D.
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Worst. Journalist. Ever. Suzan Masur is back, sowing her own peculiar brand of indignant cluelessness about science.
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I complained about UM's Center for Woo and it's promotion of homeopathy. The U daily paper published a brief complaint about the insanity of supporting homeopathy. There was one response from a supporter of homeopathy whose argument was basically that it's all a matter of opinion, and we ought to encourage all kinds of diverse opinions. Total silence from the administration. I expect they're quietly working behind the scenes to create a new Center for Astrology.
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Speaking of editorial exchanges on newspaper letter pages, here's a Canadian opposing creationism. Followed by a cretin defending creationism. Followed by a pastor peddling NOMA. If this turns into a 3-way contest, I'm going to feel really queasy aligning with the sky-pilots.
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Apparently, there's a British evangelical channel where the announcers read out testimonials to faith, which is ripe for satire. Someone sent in the opening rap to the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air and a sneaky paean to the Force which was a rewrite of the Star Wars narrative…and the announcer read them out before catching on. This could be a fun habit.
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An interesting analysis of the linking patterns in Facebook profiles shows that the US is broken up into 7 broad domains. Hang on there—I'm living in Stayathomia, where most people link to nearby friends? I wish! I'm feeling a bit strained from all the recent Gosomewhereelsia.
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That service that offers to care for your pet if you get raptured? They've got over 100 clients who are actually paying money for it! I thought the hypothetical pet-salvation service was a funny idea, but if they're actually making money off the delusions of others, that's awfully close to fraud.
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First time I have come across the phrase 'right-wing brain-puke'. I intend to steal and use it at every opportunity'.
How about a service that offers to cash out your estate in case of rapture? Just sign a power of attorney and relax. What if I PROMISE that all proceeds will go to the finding a way to recalculate the number of the beast?
PZ says "I thought the hypothetical pet-salvation service was a funny idea, but if they're actually making money off the delusions of others, that's awfully close to fraud."
Oh, come on. You're just jealous that you didn't come up with it first. I know I am. I mean what good are sheep if you can't fleece them.
On a serious note, at least in this case there is an cost for stupidity--whereas anti-science idiots, birthers and conspiracy wingnuts spout their crap with no adverse consequences.
I've often thought that if I weren't so moral in my atheism there could be some money made fleecing the flock. How many ministers and other faith workers are just cynical manipulators in it for the money?
I disagree about the pet service. They're completely honest about the fact that they think the rapture is a bunch of nonsense. If true believers in the rapture want the peace of mind of knowing that their pet is in good hands after they get yanked to heaven I don't see what's wrong with that. It's not like they're trying to make people believe that the rapture is something they need to worry about.
Mmmh. "Use the Faith, Luke"? Doesn't quite have the same ring, sorry.
The pet service is basically no different from the standard insurance model. Pay fee every X period in case bad thing Y happens. Bad thing Y may never happen, but just in case it does, you'll be covered.
The sending of fake emails to British Christian call-in shows already is a bit of a habit. One (not sure if it's the same show or a different one) got RickRolled by a similar process earlier:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqef_8U4ce4
Oh the Pet Service is BRILLIANT!
I agree with LinzeeBinzee. They are completely up front and they have actually structured a plant to deal with it in the unlikely event that it happens. If he took their money but had no one set up to take these pets, well that would be fraud.
But no, despite the fact that it is based entirely on a mythological premise, he isn't really hurting anyone. Frankly he is charging practically nothing for the service.
BTW, I thought we went to hell when the rapture happens? I'm fuzzy on it, but that was my assumption. Cause if all that happens is they all get swept off to heaven...That would be WAY cool. All our problems are solved.
You may say - Hey they were right. Yeah and their God is still a creep. So I'm still OK with not worshiping him.
While arguably unethical, it's only fraud if, in the event of an actual Rapture, they fail to fulfill the service agreement. In fact, we think the ethics and legality of this service is roughly equal to the typical product extended warranty.
The last comment in the posted link:
No one wants to weigh in on the biology professor who lost her tenure appeal, then shot her entire department????????
Sara,
Actually, the Bibble is a bit vague on the whole rapture thing. The gullible--er, I mean faithful--seem to believe they'll be brought bodily and butt nekkid up to heaven. Given the appearance of many Xtians, I would conclude that heaven will then cease to be heaven and become a freak show. As to the rest of us, we get "left behind" to suffer a couple hundred years under the "BEAST" (trademark) and then be trampled underfoot (in his infinite mercy) while the 50-foot Jeebus kicks some demonic ass.
I have often speculated what sort of drugs John was doing when he wrote the Revelation. I'm guessin' some good shrooms.
An interesting turn of events to be sure, especially given that the shooter was female. It's still developing though, and there's not much to go on right now. It puts a new spin on Sayre's Law, from which we get this:
Well, not anymore.
On the fraud thing-- I agree it has that flavour, but I don't think it adds up to fraud. No deception or misinformation is involved (beyond the self-deception of rapture believers). In fact, the non-belief of the seller is essential to his/her ability to fulfill the contract if the rapture occurs. I think it's better described as taking advantage of someone's false belief--like making a bet with someone when you already know you're right. Of course the believer thinks she's the one with the right belief. But that's really her problem, it's not likely that any attempt to dissuade her will work, and at least she gains the benefit of feeling less worried about her pet's well-being in the coming tribulation...
The whole post-rapture pet care thing is very close to fraud.
But I just thought of something funny. What would the true believers do if they woke up and found out that their loyal and unconditionally loving pet were raptured while they were left behind?
After all, a friendly dog may be more deserving of heavenly reward than the owner.
"The Bible is not a text book" is the title? How funny. Had they said "The Bible is not a textbook" they would be correct, but this makes it sound like every Holy Babble in existence is handwritten.
The incompetence is dripping right off the page.
I knew some atheists who started peddling New Age woo crap via a catalog mail-order service. Their rationale was that most of the stuff had a vague secular value (the magnetic bracelets could be worn as jewelery, for instance), and that someone was going to take these gullible morons anyway -- so why shouldn't it be someone who wouldn't waste their own money buying more of the same?
I had, and still have, some ethical problems with this. There's of course the large-picture concern with contributing to the growth of pseudoscience, and encouraging a cultural atmosphere where such nonsense passes as wise and reasonable. You're also exploiting people who almost certainly should spend their money on something else.
But there's also the more personal issue of what it means to one's own character and life, to spend it knowingly taking advantage of 'morons.' I think that most people like to believe that, whatever it is they do for a living, they're providing a valuable service of some kind. They're contributing, helping, solving problems, making something better -- whatever it is. If they're good at what they do, and their customer or client appreciates it, then that appreciative person is a good fellow -- not another moron, sap, or poor sucker who can't tell that you and what you do in life is bullshit.
Maybe it's not illegal, and maybe the clients are happy. But I suspect that, if you work these kind of schemes too long, you're going to end up harming yourself. Your contempt for the people you serve, is going to start bleeding back on you.
I'm sorry, but the Pet Service isn't fraud unless they don't take care of pets after the Rapture. It is an idiot tax of the highest order. "If this impossible thing happens, and you paid us, we'll take care of the pet" is an honest, but improbable business strategy.
Bryson:
The service providers, despite their personal disbelief and a complete lack of evidence for the existence of deities, cannot be 100 percent certain that there is no god and that there won't be a rapture, as defined by their customers.
What they're providing is, as insurance-mongers like to remind us, "peace of mind." We would agree that the business is fraudulent in the same way that many extended warranty contracts are fraudulent, that is, in a practical sense, they're often worthless.
Why chastise the HuffPost? More power to Arianna and her acolytes to put some worthy stuff out there? The post is considerably accurate by the way.
Sastra:
Exactly! We've often joked with the Legioness that we could relocate to Easy Street if we'd only start up a storefront ministry for the rubes and rake in the cash. Being composed of hardier moral fiber, she has steadfastly refused, saying she'd rather produce and sell bear-man-pig erotica than promote religion.
We've often wondered how the televangelists, faith healers, and pandering politicos, manage to get through the day without a twinge of conscious guilt.
We often wonder how the televangelists,
Sastra
You changed my mind!
I still think its funny, but you do have a point.
I realized you were right when I wondered if I would do it and I realized I wouldn't. The deeper implication of knowing you are ripping someone off - that is not something I can feel good about myself for.
New poster, long-time lurker. Please be kind.
It is a mark of shame for me that I spent a few years working for Dana Ullman's homeopathic bookstore in Berkeley (Which is by and large a lovely town, for all that it has a high tolerance of crazy). He (Yes, Dana is a he; Dana Gregory Ullman) is the unpleasant sort of shyster who believes just enough of the hogwash he's selling to sell it convincingly, and no further. His daughter and wife got the best health plan money could buy. None of his employees got so much as a bent pin. He sold his mailing lists without disclosing it to his customers, went through employees like tissue paper and regularly either shorted or outright gypped his suppliers and contractors.
Worst place I ever worked, hands down. (But, despite that, VERY educational, as most unpleasant experiences are)
Also: Someone upthread remarked that they wondered How many ministers and other faith workers are just cynical manipulators in it for the money?
Answer: All of them. Some merely self-rationalize better than others.
Hey Legion, does this qualify? bear-man-pig-erotica Some may think this is NSFW. This is definitely NSFW unless,of course, your boss is a furry.
BTW, PZ, the latest installment of the endless thread reached the fatal and darkly magic number 666 a while back, but will not die. It's full of zombies.
"The post is considerably accurate by the way."
Not if the subject is health. HuffPo is a repository for woo and denial of health science.
Butch Pansy:
Butch Pansy, was there supposed to be a link in there -- although given the subject matter, we're a little afraid to ask. ;)
homeopathy...
I've mentioned my crazy aunt before. I don't know about the sellers of this crap but my aunt is an unwaivering believer. In the same conversation she tells me her spleen isn't doing good and her arthritis is acting up again, she tells me she has been taking her "natural" pills for 25 years and hasn't ever been sick.
I tell her I've never taken that stuff and I've never been sick.
It goes right over her head. She doesn't get it. She also owns a Kangen water machine and "I've already sold 4 units".
My favorite bat-shit crazy aunt.
I tried showing her some Tim Minnion (sp) videos and she said "He's not funny" and she walked out of the room.
I see an interesting contrast between this and Austin's The Atheist Experience. Since that's a call-in show, they occasionally get prank calls as well. But to get past the screener, they have to come up with an actual question or topic for discussion. Which means that by the time the caller gets to the prank part of his call, there's been an interesting conversation on the air.
Sara #23 wrote:
I know. And, in this particular case, it's hard to picture the clients as upscale, self-absorbed people with more money than sense. Instead, I imagine little old grandma at the trailer park, worried about what's going to happen to all her dear furry babies when she's raptured up to heaven to be with Jayzuz, so she cuts back on luxuries like milk, it's not that hard, really.
Nice Ogress #24 wrote:
The funny thing is, I suspect that most of the people I know who believe fervently in homeopathy are more likely to be dissuaded from alt med by anecdotes like this, than they are by negative outcomes in controlled studies. Despite the fact that they see themselves as freethinking mavericks who can't be blindly lead by Big Pharma and scientific "authority," they seem to want to latch onto gurus and leaders whom they can trust and believe in. Alt med czars invariably flatter, and empower their followers with the sense of being part of something sensitive and special. They all see and accept a truth that others won't, because they have a sincere, open-minded nature that rejects phony materialism in all its forms.
Without the discipline and consensus of the scientific method, the reliability of a discovery depends primarily on the character of the discoverer, and whether it "works" when you try it. People who are seriously into homeopathy aren't just interested in the medicine -- they're buying into an entire mystique. If they thought that Dana Ullman was a jerk, this would probably shake their faith in the "science" of homeopathy in a way that physics and chemistry could not.
In case anyone doesn't know:
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Bel-Air
I wonder, do the pet rapture people guarantee their service? Because, if they do, they would have to hire some non-Christian types who would be around after the rapture to take care of their pets.
Greetings from jesusland!
Pet rapture insurance, inspirational! Now, if I can just get a hold of some infant foreskins….? Then if you encounter the bible god at some Inn, or the equivalent, and he wants to kill you, (just saying) You, or preferably your significant other can toss the foreskin at his feet and be spared! It happened before: Ex.4:24-26, quickly digresses to men kissing…. Of course I’d have to be able to keep it fresh and bloody looking, maybe 10% nbf with some kind of dye? Of course for you Dr. Myers, calamari would suffice.
Hmmm...one of these days I'll have complete success with HTML, but not today. Use your active imagination while invoking rule 34. Cheers!
PZ said: "I thought the hypothetical pet-salvation service was a funny idea, but if they're actually making money off the delusions of others, that's awfully close to fraud."
Hmmm...Fraud? Fraud implys Deceit, Trickery, Dishonesty. This offering doesn't come close to any of those things.
- My site states up front that we do not believe in the rapture, thus never expect to have to execute our contracts. That we don't expect this event to ocurr is not fraud...its stated up front.
- We do not promote the rapture, we let the theist shaman do that. Perhaps it is they who are perpetrating fraud ( ? )
- We have 26 atheist rescuers in 22 states committed to the program and ready willing and able to exercise their contracts in the "500 trillion to one" chance we are wrong and the fundies are correct.
PZ, it is our assumption as atheists & our rejection of supernaturalism, that we are correct in our no rapture position. But I am not an absolutist. I was unaware that you were.
If clergy can accept money for selling and promoting a promise of eternal life, whether they believe in it or not -- it is a fraud? It's no more or less a fraud than my offering, whether I believe in the rapture or not.
For $0.92 per month (!!) I am offering believers peace of mind. If it puts some extra money in 26 atheists' pockets it's a win win for everyone.
At any rate, thank you for the opportunity to offer a defense against a comment that "comes awfully close" to slander ;)
Yours in reason,
Bart
aka Dromedary Hump
creator/co-owner: Eternal Earth-Bound Pets
author: The Atheist Camel Chronicles
re: #9
Revelations is pretty murky, but the most widely held interpretation is that the true believers get raptured before the Tribulation, and all the rest of us of imperfect faith are left behind to suffer the tyranny of the beast and the antichrist and the subsequent final war between Jebus and anti-Jebus (You'd almost think the two of them would annihilate each other in a flash of pure energy, no?)
When Jebus wins, the beast, antichrist, and all the humans who followed them got tossed into hell, but the remaining (supposedly small number) of humans who supported Jebus live.
There then is supposed to follow a 1000 year reign of Christ's perfect kingdom, on earth, and only then those the big kahuna in the sky draw down the curtain on history, upon which Jebus takes all his loyal followers with him to heaven.
I find this interesting in a fan-fiction sort of way, since it posits an ultimate heaven populated by two different groups - the "saved" who got raptured, and the "redeemed" who live through the tribulation and the earthly kingdom of Christ, and then go to heaven after.
Think about it. A set-up for an eternity of class warfare.
(It should also be noted that the overall description of the tribulation - war, social upheaval, environmental destruction, famine, death, disease, demagogic political figures peddling deception to the masses, etc, etc, etc, is pretty much no different from the way the world works right now. Hmm. Maybe the rapture already happened! We should check the records to see if there was any year in the past with an unusual number of missing persons and unexplained disappearances!)
I have often speculated what sort of drugs John was doing when he wrote the Revelation. I'm guessin' some good shrooms. - a_ray_in_dilbert_space
Ah, but what sort of 'shrooms. Those of the Psilocybe genus, and Amanita muscaria contain entirely different classes of chemical, with different sites of action. Psilocin (to which psilocybin is converted when eaten) is a partial agonist at the 5-HT2A and 5-HT1A serotonin receptors, while muscimol is a selective agonist of the GABAA receptor and a partial agonist at the GABAC receptor. The subjective effects are said to be very different. Those of the latter are said to resemble lucid dreaming. However, I would think Datura stramonium (Jimson weed or thorn apple) more likely than either. This contains the anticholinergic (or deliriant) tropane alkaloids atropine, hyoscyamine and scopolamine. Subjectively, the effects are often very unpleasant (although it is used recreationally), and can include a complete inability to distinguish the resultant hallucinations from reality. That sounds like old Johnny to me!
After all, a friendly dog may be more deserving of heavenly reward than the owner. - brotheratombombofmoderation
Or of course, God may be a dog (isn't there a possible hint in his name?), and only dogs have souls. Further evidence for this: the world is notoriously full of shit, and dogs love shit.
Another link you might be interested in: http://www.scienceandreligiontoday.com/2010/02/11/are-devoutly-religiou…
I suspect one of the worse journalists ever is Simon Jenkins, who happens to write for one of the best newspapers, The Grauniad (who also have, for example, Ben Goldacre of the wonderful Bad Science as a commentator). Jenkin's latest brainvomit-dump is some shite about how science/scientists pronounce things from upon high and reject criticism, http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/04/scientists-fallibil…
I have often speculated what sort of drugs John was doing when he wrote the Revelation. I'm guessin' some good shrooms.
I believe that Patmos, where John lived, and wrote his dreams down, is famous for Psilocybin.
Suspicion confirmed...
"Worst. Journalist. Ever."
So you're NOT counting Do'L of the DI as a "journalist"? Because she is as much the W.J.E. as Bu--sh-- is the W.P.E.: while a competitor might SEEM in the running, any examination of the details is more than convincing.
On a very interesting note I used to work part time at a college library during my undergrad days. One of the clerks there was a very disturbed and depressed person of rather high intelligence who I used to get stuck working the 3am finals week shifts with.I got to know him decently well and respected him as a smart if undoubtedly fucked up person. He once related to me that he was a national honors scholar who got a scholarship to a theology based university and while there started to study the bible more closely.Long story short he eventually became personally abhorred with all the contradictions and atrocities of the bible and switched over to english lit studies. This I believe was a big factor in his depression as his familial relations deteiorated and they ostracized himOne of the stories he found most daming was Revelation. He claimed in it John said he received his visions from a "bitter little scroll" which he ate. And lo and behold the island J was exiled on where he wrote Rev has a psilocibin mushroom that has curled sides the locals called the little scroll.Can anyone confirm this?
On a very interesting note I used to work part time at a college library during my undergrad days. One of the clerks there was a very disturbed and depressed person of rather high intelligence who I used to get stuck working the 3am finals week shifts with.I got to know him decently well and respected him as a smart if undoubtedly fucked up person. He once related to me that he was a national honors scholar who got a scholarship to a theology based university and while there started to study the bible more closely.Long story short he eventually became personally abhorred with all the contradictions and atrocities of the bible and switched over to english lit studies. This I believe was a big factor in his depression as his familial relations deteiorated and they ostracized himOne of the stories he found most daming was Revelation. He claimed in it John said he received his visions from a "bitter little scroll" which he ate. And lo and behold the island J was exiled on where he wrote Rev has a psilocibin mushroom that has curled sides the locals called the little scroll.Can anyone confirm this?
...bloody fucking mobile web browsers.sorry all
Sastra said:
"There's of course the large-picture concern with contributing to the growth of pseudoscience, and encouraging a cultural atmosphere where such nonsense passes as wise and reasonable. You're also exploiting people who almost certainly should spend their money on something else.
But there's also the more personal issue of what it means to one's own character and life, to spend it knowingly taking advantage of 'morons.'"
I am amazed at the sanctimonious tone and inventive invictives of holier than thou atheists.
Contributing to pseudoscience? Where is the sicence, pseudo or other wise, of the rapture?
It is as much pseudo-science as belief in alien abduction. If I were to sell anti-alien-abduction insurance, does it contribute to the growth of belief in alien abductions? Please.
Ah... so we are concerned with religionists ability to assess on what to spend their money! Evidently $0.92 a month is a major imposition on their financial security, because as every atheist knows all believers in the rapture are impoverished and living in cardboard boxes. No problem with them contributing to their church to promulgate religious indoctrination, or to support proselytizing. That $0.92 is just wrong!
I wonder, if Pat Robertson purchased the service, would you feel equally as sympathetic?
Horse hockey!
Finally, on one hand you bemoan religionists wasting their money; in the next breath you call them "morons." They are all impoverished people with an IQ far below a functioning level? Thats an interesting blend of misplaced empathy and exquisit condescention.
40 million rapture believing religionists don't need your protection from the big bad atheists, nor your condescention. The rest of the country's interpretation of rapture is hardly going to be strenghtend as "science" by the pet rescue offer.
Get over yourself Sastra.
Yawn, take your concern for the delusional fools in life, and shove it where the sun don't shine. If they believe in things without evidence, they will be called on it. And they will be called stoopid. If you don't like it, deal with it elsewhere. We will be changing nothing here.
"Speaking of editorial exchanges on newspaper letter pages, here's a Canadian opposing creationism. Followed by a cretin defending creationism."
That particular cretin is a professor (!) at a satellite campus of my alma mater (the University of British Columbia). Apparently he either doesn't understand some fairly basic scientific processes (Biology types - this is standard first year stuff, right??) or he does understand how evolution works and is purposefully lying (academic ethics?!?). Right now I'm not sure which is worse, they both make me feel ill. I'll be contacting the Dean of Science, the Acting Dean at UBC-O, and the University President to see if they can't help me figure out which is worse.
This makes us look bad and he's clearly trying to trade in on the UBC name. I strongly recommend any current or former UBC students also contact the university.
Prof. Simon Peacock, Dean of Science
Email: scidean@science.ubc.ca
Dr. Cynthia Mathieson, Acting Dean (UBC-O)
cynthia.mathieson@ubc.ca
Prof. Stephen Toope, President and Vice-Chancellor
stephen.toope@ubc.ca
-Julia
Regarding: "there was one response from a supporter of homeopathy."
A licensed ND, apparently, who's national board exam labels homeopathy "clinical science", most certainly.
-r.c.
Nerd said:
"Yawn, take your concern for the delusional fools in life, and shove it where the sun don't shine. If they believe in things without evidence, they will be called on it. And they will be called stoopid. If you don't like it, deal with it elsewhere. We will be changing nothing here."
To whom were you directing that? Not me I hope.
I trust that it was directed at Sastra's crocodile tears and handwringing over the poor religionists being taken advantage of, and not me, since I have zero concern for the delusional religious fools.
Hence my willingness to accept their money for an insurance contract on which I'll never have to deliver (unless monekys fly out my ass).