I'm feeling a bit light-headed, and wondering if I'm still asleep. Or if it's April Fools' Day. Ruse actually concedes some ground to Dawkins in the religion wars. Of course, it's in the HuffPo, so it could be some perverse nonsense, anyway.
Recently, the New Atheists' most prominent representative, Richard Dawkins, wrote a highly emotive piece for the Washington Post, in which he derided the present pope and expressed glee and satisfaction that such a person was now leading the Catholic Church. In Dawkins's judgment, not only was this no less than the Church deserved, but such leadership could only hasten the Church's demise. I thought at the time that Dawkins was over the top and wrong. I now think that he was right and that it was I who was wrong. Let me say at once that, unlike Dawkins, I don't necessarily want to see this as the end of religion or even of the Catholic Church in some form. I stress that although I cannot share the beliefs of Christians, I respect them and applaud the good that is done in the name of their founder. But I do now think that as presently constituted, the Catholic Church is corrupt and should be eradicated.
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Dawkins is right. The moral mess gets worse and worse. Hope of change is illusory. Götterdämmerung beckons. Although we have different motives and undoubtedly hope for different outcomes, I join Dawkins in welcoming the prospect.
He also points out that one of the most damning things about the church's problems is that they are responding by digging in and resisting change. He's not alone in noting that Ratzinger's papacy has been bad news for Catholicism.
However, just a note of reality, though: this is what the Catholic Church has always done. They have never been a bastion of liberal thought, and what they've always done in response to problems is recover by retrenchment — and it doesn't hurt them. Those who revel in arcane dogma will not be deterred by the material aberration of wicked priests engaging in buggery.
Seriously — Catholicism survived the Reformation and the Thirty Years' War, blatantly political and corrupt popes, schisms and violence. The current events are trivial in comparison.
The church is going to exist for a long, long time to come. What we should expect, though, is that as the more liberal membership boils off to join progressive churches or to abandon religion altogether, as the elements lobbying for change give up and go elsewhere, what will be left behind is exactly what we're seeing: a hard kernel of very conservative Catholicness that will become increasingly crazy and detached from reality. It will become much worse…but it will still exist, and will be populated by the devout ranks of the truly fervent, the Bill Donohues and the Father Coughlins, and they aren't going to be dissuaded at all by us weird atheists or those wishy-washy Anglicans. Don't expect demise, just a diminishment and a hardening.
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HuffPo has been on the rampage with crap lately. Did you see the column they had over the weekend in the Religion section, where a Mr. Laszlo wrote an entire piece passing evolution off as a form of design, and calling the whole creationism/evolution debate into question based on that premise?
Awful stuff.
Is "Catholicness" even a word? I agree with you that we atheists get easily carried away with fantasies that the Catholic Church might crumble beneath the weight of various scandals. It won't, not in our lifetime or in our children's. Anyway, this will give us something to kvetch about for the next few thousand years, if we survive that long as a species. I think we'd all be happier if the political influence of the Church were lessened considerably. I think this in itself is a worthwhile, reasonable pursuit.
Huh. Laszlo must've seen Mr. Deity and the Science Advisor.
Good article. Good for Michael Ruse.
Agreed. But maybe a resignation of Ratzinger would be a fun thing to contemplate in our lifetime.
It has happened before. I think the last time was in 1009, the abdication of John XVIII.
And the current Code of Canon Law, canon 322.2, still allows for the resignation or abdication of the pope. It stipulates only that such a resignation be "freely made and properly witnessed".
The Catholic church is already evolving its survival strategy - the third world nations in Africa and elsewhere.
I don't think that an entrenchment of conservatism is the future. If catholic history teaches us something, it is that its moral compass is guided only by its self interest.
If Holy Mother Church decides it needs married priests, then women priests, and even pedophile priests (wait, its already got them), then that is the future.
The hierarchy of the Catholic church has fossilized in place. They should reform but are unable to.
They won't "fall", just fade to irrelevancy.
There is a huge gap between the members and the priests, the members paying no attention to them anymore.
The RCC hasn't been able to get competent priests for a long time and it is showing. No one wants to be a life long virgin (not that the priests are necessarily life long virgins), and forgo normal human activities like significant others, families, and kids. They are left with a pool of very weird men who are frequently none too bright or sane.
This is a death spiral.
... as the more liberal membership boils off to join progressive churches or to abandon religion altogether...
Probably most new ex-Catholics will end up in evangelical megachurches, possibly even less free than they are now.
Didn't Ratzinger say something, when claiming his throne, about wanting a smaller and more dedicated flock?
In my opinion, what the RCC is saying is not meant for anyone else but its members.
The RCC does not care what non-caths think, and the messages going out are meant only for the faithful, hence the persecution complex, Jew-hating and other statements which only seem offnsive to those that have not drunk the kool-aid.
They've had some 1,800 years to refine their approach, they're not making the mistakes you think they are.
Here's something I'd like to see more people blogging about and smacking the Pope up the side of the head with: Until he repeals both the Crimen Sollicitationis and De Delictis Gravioribus, his words are no more than the posturing of an impotent old man. Vatican Law must change before we can hold him to anything.
I wouldn't have thought so. Catholic theology is very different to evangelical theology: they might both look equally silly from our point of view, but that doesn't make them the same. There are profound differences over the interpretation of the Bible, the authority of the church, sacerdotalism versus the "priesthood of all believers", the role of sacraments, soteriology, justification by faith alone, ritual, liturgy, and the proper form of government for the church. These were differences over which a lot of people got killed, back in the seventeenth century.
More progressive Catholics could more sensibly become "High Church" Anglicans/Episcopalians.
I was thinking about this - that I don't think I want an end to religion. What I want is an end to religion trying to take over where religion doesn't belong - like schools and government - and similarly an end to religion doing evil things - like blowing themselves up or holding people down.
@Kevin,
I want an end to those things, too, as well as an end to:
I'm afraid I may not see an end to those things until religion is gone from this world.
@KOPD:
Oh, I forgot the third thing - which was that I also want an end to people behaving stupidly.
OT, how do you make the nifty arrows? :O
It hasn't been a complete success. They've had several major schisms, first the Eastern Orthodox splitting off. Then the Reformation, which ended in horrific violence that killed tens of millions and they mostly lost.
A lot of that 1,800 years the RCC kept hold of power by the usual means, killing and terrorizing people with swords, guns, rope, and stacks of firewood. They can't do that anymore, thank Cthulhu and the Enlightenment.
Raven:
No shit. You really have to wonder what kind of loser would sign up for such a shit job.
And isn't the pool of prospective nuns dwindling too?
PZ is, as usual, right :if "the more liberal membership boils off", the remnants of the Church could be very dangerous. Something similar has happened before. After Joseph Smith was killed there was a massive loss of members in the Mormon community. Those that were left were truly fanatical, few more so than Brigham Young. It was this group, the hard core of Mormons that moved to Utah to form their theocracy. This happened in the formative stages to the LDS, so the exact same thing can't happen with an old well established Church but I think the principle, that the remaining core of True Believers (TM) can do a great deal of damage, holds.
Pierce R. Butler
This is what I suspect, too. The decline of the pope-led church and its dusty medieval thinking and rituals seems inevitable, but people aren’t just going to just give up the god-concept and their desire for comforting rituals. Any knob with enough charisma can say pretty much anything and gather a following, and I’m not even convinced that a “new” Catholicism won’t arise out of the ashes.
Kevin:
Fair enough. :-)
Here you go.
It's possible that some Catholics will turn to eastern orthodox churches. They are more alike than protestant or fundagelicals are, the orthodox being more decentralized.
And we can't forget the 14th Century and its Anti-Pope. Talk about a good time, two guys both claiming to be pope and if you didn't do what one pope said (which was "Join my army and go destroy that other guy who thinks he's the pope.") you damned and on your way to hell. I guess flipping a coin to decide which one was the real pope was a reasonable way to pick your side.
For now I'm only moving Ruse from the milquetoast column to the quasi-milquetoast column. I'm not hearing any real gestalt yet. He's still not demonstrating that he understands the danger of the situational surrender of reason.
@KOPD:
The arrows are bullets?! Amazing!
Good question. The RCC is losing members and money in the USA although no where near what one would expect.
The mainline protestants are slowly losing members too.
My impression is that they go both ways.
Some become Deists or Nones, or join more benign groups. One of my RCC relatives is now a lay official....in a liberal protestant church. Something happened there.
Some will gravitate to the fundie cults. One of the few xian groups to grow (5%) last year was Assembly of god, Sarah Palin's church. These are an ugly group of Rapture Monkeys, who believe that the earth is under assault from witches, demons, evolutionary biologists, and astronomers.
Best wild ass guess. Eventually the USA will polarize to a large group of more benign xians and Nones, and a smaller but rabid group of Bachmann/Palin/Hagee death cultist fanatics.
#10 DistroMan, you blew my mind
#20 cafeeine: I don't see this happening easily because we are each other's heretics.
What I would LOVE to see is people leaving the RCC to become Pastafarians. It's the only logical route, really.
The Reformation, the last big smackdown, was impelled to a surprising extent by the new capabilities and colossal impact of the printing press.
The 'Net is even a more powerful revolution, whose eventual cultural impact is barely comprehended. Hang on to your hats!
And some of you, your miters.
One of the mottoes of the Benedictine Order is Succisa virescit "Pruned, it grows again." I have a vague recollection that Ratz used it on one occasion (years ago, maybe before he was popified) in reference to the number of people leaving the RCC. I took it to mean that he was unconcerned, because the RCC is unkillable.
Like that broom in the Sorcerer's Apprentice.
If the recent scandals of the RCC does not make you realize the wicknedd of the religion, I do not what will.
One of the mottoes of the Reformation was "Fish always rot starting from the head."**
**If course I just made that up. But it could have been so.
Having grown up Catholic, a lot of people (catholics) thought that once both Cardinal Bernadin and Pope John Paul II were gone, that the church in American would split in half, since it seemed most catholics did not believe in most of the church's teachings, and to a large extent people felt it was held together by their two personalities.
So, it's not really an atheist fantasy, but in many ways a Catholic fantasy. That church is ripe to split in half. People want change in leadership and certain doctrines, but don't want to go to crazytown evangelical or fundamentalist and stop believing in evolution and history.
I think we may see the church split. Younger people will leave to form a new "american" catholic church, older people like my parents will probably staty. Maybe some europeans will split too.
Walton @ # 11: More progressive Catholics could more sensibly become "High Church" Anglicans/Episcopalians.
It's the adverb in that sentence which undermines all the rest. Bear in mind that those sects which proselytize the most are already sending scouts into the Holy Mother Church to pick off the stragglers, and such operations do not prioritize intellectual rationales. Those who had enough faith to be stressed in the losing of it will be prime prey for pulpit vultures drawn to emotional pain and practiced in exploiting it.
The Vatican faces a challenge in getting through the B-16 papacy, but then they'll face a bigger crisis.
Imagine the cardinals' conclave:
"Okay, guys, we all know it's going to be one of us in here. Let's save some time - raise your hand if you're stone certain nobody can link you to covering up a clear case of brat-boinking.
"Well... now we all know it's not going to be one of us in here..."
And we can't forget the 14th Century and its Anti-Pope. - TheOtherHank
I think we may see the church split. Younger people will leave to form a new "american" catholic church, older people like my parents will probably staty. - googlemess
Yes, I think schism(s) and antipopes are real possibilities - and that really could spell the end, because they could exhaust their resources fighting each other in the courts and (probably) the streets. Anyhow, according to the most common interpretation of the so-called prophecies of St Malachi there's only going to be one more Pope after Palpatine!
One of the few xian groups to grow (5%) last year was Assembly of god, Sarah Palin's church. These are an ugly group of Rapture Monkeys, who believe that the earth is under assault from witches, demons, evolutionary biologists, and astronomers. - raven
Absurd. Surely everyone knows astronomers are allied with vampires and hobgoblins against witches, demons and evolutionary biologists? Sheesh.
Stand on Zanzibar, written in 1968 by John Brunner, a somewhat dystopian sci-fi novel set in (surprise) 2010, features a Catholic church split by schism, with the Right Catholic church based in Madrid headed by Pope Eglantine and the other still in the Vatican headed by Pope Thomas.
Surprisingly prescient for a novel written over 40 years ago.
Well... bugger my giddy aunt.
Seems tradgedy does bring people together.
I do hate the way every portrays Dawkins as sme sort of gleeful, gloating goblin, cackling over his enemy's death. He's not gloating, he's outraged. Everyone should be.
Meh, I'm drunk, so all grammar errors I spot in the morning should be ignored.
Happy 21'st to me, a toast to Dawkins, and a boil on the bum to the fundies!
Damn RCC isn't going to just keel over on the spot and wave its legs in the air - its going to stagger around for wayyy too long, clutching at its mortal wound going "arrrgh... oooh... eeeeee...arrrrghhh.... oooooh... oooooooo... ouchie...ouchie... arrrrrrhhhh...", knocking shit over and messing the place up.
(I may still be giggling a bit, though...)
Well, happy birthday, Kieranfoy! and many happy returns.
@6 "The Catholic church is already evolving its survival strategy - the third world nations in Africa and elsewhere. "
That, that will be a sight to see! Christianity returning to its roots - real, live actual witch-burnings. Those kinds of places actually belive, for real, that witches will steal your penis. That level of mentality.
some years back there was a move on in some Libertarian circles in the USA to "get elected to an office in order to preside over shutting it down." The idea failed, but I wouldn't mind seeing such an idea take root in the RCC. It's about as likely to happen as the first scenario, but what the hey, a guy can dream, can't he ?
@6 "Probably most new ex-Catholics will end up in evangelical megachurches, possibly even less free than they are now."
Evangelical megachurches are doomed - they depend utterly on people driving their cars to church. Shopping malls are doomed, too.
So, the RCC is a lot like the Republican Party:
Any reasonable sane members have been 'boiled off', and we are left with a mixture of raging ignoramuses, and viciously selfish pirates.
Yep, that's the RCC!
Pierce R. Butler wrote:
In the Americas, not unlikely. In Europe the hemorrhage is mostly to irreligion and vague new ageyness.
Dunno about Africa - where any losses are being replaced by vigorous new growth anyway - or Asia.
I expect to see more Cathoholics joining one of the various independent Catholic churches such as the ECC. Or they may form a few schisms of their own...
Let the collapse continue!