I'm glad someone occasionally looks into the other side of the net to see what they're talking about — I can't bear to read religious forums, myself. Here's why: take a look at what they're saying on BaptistBoard.
I believe women in politics have done a great disservice to the sovereignty and resolve of a our great Republic. Many issues that face our nation, from without and within, need to be decided from a place of strength instead of weakness. Women are gifted from God with a lot of skills that are good in the home, but not in the Government. They tend to base their decisions from a security standpoint and believe that they have the ability to rehabilitate and nurse others to mental and social health. Men are more pragmatic and can make the tough calls that have to be made in matters of war, also in domestic and international policy. Maybe I should have said men used to be able to make the tough calls. Women in politics have been in position so long now that men are not the men they once were. They have to take into account how their decisions and policies will be viewed by the ladies. Being weak, pathetic, and a bunch of pansies being entrusted with positions of power are all the result of this great error.
Even the loons there who disagree with this nonsense are saying it's because God gave men and women complementary abilities!
I'm also greatly offended. One consequence of that attitude is that, in order to be True Men™, we have to be ignorant, brutal, and ready to go off to war whenever our testicles tingle…and if you aren't, you're a "pansy". It's a bias that is as demeaning to men as it is to women.
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OH so that's what that means.
My Testy Sense is tingling! To arms!
Tingling balls could explain why Dubya walks the way he does.
I can't stand the religonuts websites myself. I can't bring myself to give them hits. So I just go to FSTDT to gloat at them.
http://fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=72953
Demeaning to pansies as well.
Matt Penfold said, "Tingling balls could explain why Dubya walks the way he does."
Damn, you mean if somebody had had some ointment, we could have avoided Iraq. Don't mention that ass, please. Every time I see his face, I want to perform a Smirkumcision.
I mean, where would our society be if, throughout history, empires were not ruled by men eager to go to war? Can you imagine what kind of a nightmare world that would be?
Good thing to know Borat was not an entirely fictional
character. But I didn't know he was inspired by faith.
Ya see, all of a woman's abilities are tied into her uterus. It is a place of great security and comfort for the most beloved of all big sky daddy's creatures, the human fetus. Therefore, a woman can only be protective.
sigh...Just trying to write this hurt my head.
Fucking women. Coming over here, taking our testicles.
Louis
P.S. I thought Testicles was a Greek hero until I discovered Smirnoff. Mind you, I also thought Muffin the Mule was a sex offence...
Oh that's good on many levels.
So men who most closely align with Jebus (at least most of what he said - and particularly what modern christians tend to focus on after deutronomy and leviticus - let's ignore the whole coming with a sword thing)are pansies and not to be trusted with power. Noted.
"My Testy Sense is tingling! To arms!" Kraid @2
Left arm or right arm?
Oh, you can use both arms? At the same time?
There's plenty in the bible to back that position up.
BTW, I thought this thread was going to be about spring flowers. I am so disappointed.
Hey, the poor dude is just all butthurt and sad in the pants because some girl was elected 6th grade president instead of him.
Reading that thread brought my faith in humanity down a good few pegs. It's so insanely sexist and chauvinist, but the idiots don't even realize it (well, most of them don't). Religion is something else...
I feel sick now.
I decided the go an read the original comment, and the responses. I will need to shower all evening.
I'm never surprised that this kind of ignorance persists among a handful of people. I am surprised and horrified to think that there are powerful religious groups influencing our government's policies in which this kind of ignorance is dominant and that it is spreading. Next they'll be saying that sexual orientation can preclude someone from serving on the Supreme Court. Oh, wait, they already are.
But, but .... What would Palin say (WWPS)
"Men are more pragmatic and can make the tough calls that have to be made in matters of war, also in domestic and international policy."
Margaret Thatcher, Golda Meir, Elizabeth I, Hatshepsut, Catherine the Great, Maria Theresa, Empress Cixi...
Some people say things so stupid and ignorant that you don't quite know how to respond. Honestly, I'm staggered. To think this peron's vote matters as much as mine (probably more if he lives in a rural or primary state). It's amazing "our great Republic" has survived this long with repugnant yahoos like this enjoying the franchise.
Being weak, pathetic, and a bunch of pansies being entrusted with positions of power are all the source of this great problem.
There, I fixed it. Because despite the lunacy, that's a pretty good description of more than half the people 'leading' our country.
I'd like to see him explain his opinion to Hilary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi or even Sarah Palin. I bet their responses would eliminate his fear that women aren't tough enough to go to war. Along with, perhaps, a few of his less well used body parts.
So *that's* what it means when my testicles tingle. The next time it happens I'll see if I can't join the Marine corps. I'll yell "Semper Fi" as my testicles tingle with fervent delight.
So is the reason Blair adopted Bush's walk when they were together that Dubya made his bollocks tingle? Because that would actually explain a lot.
If tingling testicles signal the need to go to war, then how come the county fair doesn't erupt in violence centered around the pirate ship ride?
I am pretty sure that would explain it.
The tingling gonads theory seems to have a lot going for it.
Also, American warmongers of the last few decades tend to be people who are scared shitless and thrash about wildly in panic, terrified of the terrorists that could be putting homeland security in danger... and the prominent women among them are easy to count: *nn C**lt*r, Michelle Malkin, Sarah Failin', and... uh... oh yeah, Michele "my parents spelled me like a male Italian" Bachmann. I think that's it, isn't it.
There's a whole book about this phenomenon, The Age of Anxiety. I bought it years ago and still haven't read it. :-(
@David Marjanovic -Hey, there are lots of women named Michele, can't you find a better insult for someone so repugnant than picking on the spelling of her name?
Chaseacross, I'm not completely sure Thatcher was the best example you could have used. "Tough calls" might be one way of looking at it, but it's still Thatcher. Not exactly one of the better leaders in recent memory.
To be fair, most of the other members are grilling him for that idiotic comment, even if their idea of reasoning seems to be to ask for scripture passages backing his points. But nobody seems to disagree with his notion that you have to provoke brawls in order to be a great leader.
@Roestigraben - That may be true (I'm not giving them the hits to find out), but there's also a rather large movement in Baptist circles centered around the notion that women should be obedient to their husbands, etc.
Sgt. Obvious: But the original claim was that women are no good at being war-mongering, reactionary dicks*. Thatch is great counter-example.
*Usually I more-or-less agree with not using gendered body-part insults, but here the stereotypical maleness of the knavery is kind of the point.
Further, few of them are actually willing to do the warring themselves.
According to the average American Baptist, the bravest a man can be is to send a poor young black kid to do his killing for him.
I guess they don't make fatigues wide enough in the crotch for the massive testicles these manly chickenhawks sport, else I'm sure they'd be the first to enlist.
(Of course, I'm being just a little disingenuous. In wartime, these types just love enlisting—in the National Guard or some other group that makes them less likely to see actual frontline action.)
What ever happened to the concept that being a political leader of a country that goes to war represents a failure ?
Hopefully Sarah Palin might take the message to heart and decide that god doesn't want her to go anywhere near politics.
It didn't jibe with the people who think only atheists like Hitler engage in mass murder.
You obviously aren't going to the correct county fairs.
One can only hope...
I think it would be a good idea if voting to send people to war automatically signed you up as an infantry private.
Weren't pansies the symbol of freethinkers?
a_ray_in_dilbert_space @ #6:
I am certain I will not read anything as brilliant as this for a long time to come.
Bravo!
Hey PZ, those lovely folks at The Nameless Wiki have finally put up a totally objective and impartial article about you.
Wow. So much misogyny, chauvanism and homophobia in one place must surely create a singularity of teh stoopid.
Lets run this through the translato-max...
*sound of gears grinding and hard disks chattering*
... "Damned women, what the hell are they doing out of the home? And in politics no less! The don't know their place! I knew we should have gone with the Ferrengi solution to this. Barefoot, pregnant and nekkid, thats the way to go!"
..."Accursed women stop me getting my kill on. Or rather stop me sending poor black kids to get my vicarious kill on. How the hell am I supposed to feel like a man when women are always complaining about unecessary wars? How am I supposed to fanatsise about being Jack Bauer when tortu... er, 'alternative interrogation techniques' is a bad word(s)?"
..."wome are weak. They need a man to make their decisions for them. Left to their own devices they might try to help people, and we can't have that, no siree. Who would we demonise then?"
Meh. Sexist idiots on a baptist board.
We make up what we believe before we even bother to look is pretty much their M.O. right?
"Don't annoy me with facts, I have a great idea without them!"
re: 33
Although in the past (for instance GW Bush's experience) membership in the National Guard meant staying home, it no longer does. As a current member of the MN National Guard I can tell you almost every soldier with more than a couple years service has done one, if not two deployments. I know some soldiers with as many as 4 deployments under their belt. The majority of these deployments have all been in the last 8 years or so.
Blockquote, why do you hate me...?
The wonderful thing about joining the military, at least in time of war, is that the usual prohibition against murder is temporarily abandoned and one is free to kill with impunity. All the murderous instincts that one ordinarily has to suppress are at last given free reign. One who has a sadistic itch to shoot his “fellow man” can now do so, and he may even get a medal for it. In times of peace, however, such bloodletting is not permissible, and one is labeled a murderer or psychopath for engaging in such “savage” behavior. But in time of war he’s no murderer at all; he’s deemed a hero for slaying the “enemy”. This bit of doublethink has gone on from time immemorial and is, to say the least, very confusing.
But I like pansies! My best male friends are pansies. And all of them would make better leaders than the people who write such misogynistic, chauvinistic nonsense - but then, that's not hard to do, is it?
No true Scotsman..all the time.
Really, honestly, everyone of us is a different person with different experiences and a different set of skills. Religion employs horrible, perpetuated stereotypes that deny our individuality. I don't think perpetuating those stereotypes helps any society because it denies those more competent to do certain jobs from being able to hold those positions.
It can only help to elect the person you think is best suited to accomplishing the task at hand. Gender should be irrelevant.
LOL. The OP's reply to a woman on Baptist Board who takes him to task for his misogyny:
This guy's a real "Cletus."
I raise my hand as a proud pansy. Any real guy who wants to get between me and mortal (or even minor) danger is welcome to.
http://laughinginpurgatory.blogspot.com/
one if by land and two if by sea?
Aw, heck, I read this as "Panties everywhere."
Sad now.
....
More to the point, I've always wondered: if someone does something to make them 'feel like a man', what do they feel like othertimes?
This is actually a pretty typical thing, not even just among the religious types. I saw a Youtube video whose comments contained some cretin mouthing off about how feminism has killed femininity, and now the world has descended into vulgarity. It's a nice argument, until you remember that "femininity" was essentially the product of centuries of oppression. It's like saying "black people used to be so civil before we gave them the vote. Now they're all rude and angry!"
Any time a political minority group is given more equality, it comes at the expense of the dominance of the majority group. However, maintaining systematic inequalities is only a good solution if a) you're in the majority group, and b) you have all of the moral integrity of an Enron executive.
Well, we can all see what happens to countries that keep their women out of sight and at home. I wonder if that is what they are pushing for. I'd like to show this guy just how maternal and caring I am...ok, empty threat.
As a newly-converting-agnostic, I jumped into the Baptist Board and read the thread, as it were. Sickening, absolutely appalling thought processes. The self-righteousness has propelled me farther and more quickly down the road. Away from them. Thanks for posting this - sincerely, EFH.
I checked what Onias said, and it's twoo, it's twoo: they've got a PZ Myers (spelled correctly, amazingly enough) entry of 1,822 words.
One of their complaintsfacts:
Oh, noes!
*sigh* Went against my better judgment and clicked on the link to read the comments. Now I'm going to have to devour this entire giant double chocolate chocolate chip cookie immediately to dull the pain from all that stupid (I was hoping to parse it out over the rest of the afternoon).
Oh my. Giving women the vote, what a mistake that was, eh? You should get busy lobbying to have that right taken away, you should get a real warm reception.
Why yes, you moron, because as everyone knows, all women are exactly alike. No individuality there!
Gregory Greenwood - let me see if I can shorten your translation for you...
"women scare me, therefore I shall try to keep them under my heel"
I've never met one of these types who wasn't, at his core, afraid of women.
Why yes!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freethought#Symbol
http://www.ffrf.org/legacy/fttoday/1997/june_july97/gaylor.html
"The symbol of the Freethought movement is the pansy, whose name is a derivation of the French word pensée, or "thought." Pansies are thought to resemble the human face, and in the summertime they nod their heads forward as if they were thinking deep thoughts!"
FFRF used to sell pansy pins, but they're not listed there anymore...
Hmmm. So does this mean Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann will now have to drop out of politics? After all, they take their marching orders from religious right types. So maybe there is a silver lining.
I think the only proper response to a guy like this, in person, is usually a raised eyebrow and a soft chuckle, while quickly moving on and ignoring him. If they really thought they were in control, they wouldn't protest like this. It's just too much.
I love how this particular Bapitist He-Man toughguy has a picture of himself next to a beaming woman as an avatar. The fact that his wife is either spineless or just really needs the financial security of marriage is proof that all women are natural "nurturers". We'd all prefer, like his wife obviously does, to nurse him to rehabilitation by making him a sammich and putting his Bud Lite on ice. Waiting on him hand and foot while he watches his sports team win on TV. (Which makes him feel even more like a MAY-unn. Oh the tingly scrotum sensations are like fireworks when your team wins!)
I hate to encode this in classist language of any kind, but I have noticed that it's rarely men with actual hotshot positions, oodles of money, and all kinds of power/status who spout this stuff about their natural superiority. Although, it's distinctly possible that those types just hide it better...
I saw the thread title and thought it said "Panties"
I was sorely disappointed.
@ Crommunist
The obvious cretinous types who claim that feminism has caused the world to descend into vulgarity don't scare me as much as the more subtle sexists who say the same things. There are otherwise educated men who go around complaining about how, nowadays, women "wear their sexuality on their sleeves", which means that nothing is truly sexy anymore. I literally saw a guy who thinks he's a feminist, who's all into critical theory and such, say "now you have cougars walking around, killing mens' libidos wherever they go." (This was in the context of a discussion about "hookup culture", which he was claiming was a form of "oppression" because most women just want a long-term relationship...)
Yes, because sex and desire were just sexier when they were the sole entitlements of men. That's how that works. Women should play coy again because my boner sez so, dammmit.
You know, in the 18th Century a "real man"- even, mirabile dictu, in the South- was a gentleman of many accomplishments, reserved in manner, slow to anger and treating all people with the kind of consideration and courtesy these dickwads would undoubtedly consider "effeminate". Think, say, George Washington.
How far we have fallen.
I remember in one of his essays many years ago, Issac Asimov discussed this subject relative to women's suffrage. Some opinions were that women, being more "empathic" (to use today's terminology) would vote in such a way as to eliminate war and strife. And when women got the vote---what happened? Absolutely nothing. They believed and voted exactly the same as men.
@62
While this variety sexism probably does exist at all levels, I would imagine people in powerful positions that require intelligence and hard work probably can't help but work alongside some incredibly strong, smart women. If your job is fixing vacuum cleaners, not so much. It's probably worse if you're an idiot in a shitty job who has female superiors.
I'd bet large amounts of money the guy voted for McCain/Palin.
CanadianChick @ 59;
You have got it in one. This type of man is terrified of women.
Terrified of the existence of smart, assertive women who highlight his own, deep-seated personal inadequacies.
Terrified of the fact that any woman who could choose would most likely never look at him twice.
Terrified that women who are well educated and know their own minds somehow diminish his manhood, both physical and metaphorical.
Terrified that women gaining political power will consign misogynists like him to the scrap heap of history.
He is just one more example of a certain type of male who is a truly sorry excuse for a man, who hides his misogyny behind a thin veneer of repugnant piety.
I just made the mistake of reading through most of the original thread on BaptistBoard. Two thoughts:
1) It was refreshing to see that even among godbots, there are some who are refuting the OP's nonsense. There's a little glimmer of hope here.
2) The rest of the stupid, it burned. My favorite quote is probably at the (present) end of the thread: "We've come to think that because we have more "things" today we're smarter than the people of older times - we're not!" Good sir or madam, I might have to agree... you are indeed no smarter than an ignorant bronze-age goatherder.
I saw it as "Penises everywhere".
Ever since we had a black pansy WITH flowers last through a rather tough (for Washington State) winter IN A POT and never lose a petal, I've vowed never to malign a pansy as weak again. Pansies are some of the toughest flowers around!
The Baptists appear to be under some misapprehension that the types of situations, including military ones, that we face now are remotely similar to those faced by our savannah-dwelling ancestors and thus that biologically-based differences between the sexes have much relevance. (Of course, they don't actually believe that we had SDAs - I guess god designed Adam and Eve with gender-linked cognitive abilities for making decisions about predator drones, nuclear weapons, and whether to vaccinate your kid against meningitis.) Plus they appear not to have heard about having more women in the mix on wall street might have ameliorated the alpha-male culture that led to excessive risk-taking and the whole meltdown thing.
That bumper sticker is applicable here: When the Rapture comes, we'll have this place to ourselves.
All you guy readers here know that most intelligent women prefer pansies to tingly-balled, bow-legged cretins with testosterone poisoning, right?
Mattir @ 73;
So, there is hope for me afterall?
Huzzah!
Thank god you said it. *fist-shake* Damn you, Freud!!!
Never seen FSTDT before.
Thanks guys....I see my afternoon's gonna take a time-consuming detour.
Gregory Greenwood #69:
Certainly this much is true, but I think the deeper root cause is that he's terrified of losing his own masculinity, which feels extremely fragile to him (not that he would EVER admit to as much). Anyone and anything perceived as "feminine" is very threatening to this warped conception of manhood... a lot of comedy gold has been spun out of the meme of a macho man being denigrated by something absurdly simple like wearing the "wrong" style or color of clothing, or whatever.
Naturally women are very threatening to this kind of man, but it also explains a lot of stereotypically macho hating on "pansies;" or to extrapolate just a wee bit further (because 20 years ago he would have said what he really meant: "faggots"), it explains a lot about homophobia in these men too. A man with deep insecurity about his own precarious masculinity needs to perpetually assert that he is indeed manly, which unfortunately often takes the form of verbally, physically, and/or sociopolitically putting down the groups he perceives as unmanly.
I wonder if Palin, Bachmann, etc, will take notice.
Perhaps we could all go back to the Daughters of Eve thread and discuss the psychodynamics that give rise to this sort of fragile masculinity and which accumulates into an overwhelming monument of cultural misogyny. Plus we might discover how to prevent or even cure tingly-ball disease.
(How did we end up discussing Paul instead of how to solve the freaking problem, again?)
I see this religiously inspired phallocentric bullshit all the time in my volunteer work at a women's reproductive health facility.
The anti-abortion protesters (who insist they be called "sidewalk counselors," btw) routinely spout it on the sidewalk outside of the facility.
It takes several forms, but the ones I hear most often go like this:
(When a couple has made it past the protester gauntlet and is entering the facility) "Sir, you tell her what a mistake this is. Remind her what we've said. You can talk her out of it! She'll listen to you!"
That's fucked up on so many levels. They appear to be assuming that
1. She is too stupid to think and needs her man to tell her what to do
2. She's the good, submissive little woman who will do whatever her man tells her because he's the boss and because her job is to obey him and follow orders
3. They couldn't possibly have both talked through their options and reach their decision together. And if they did, now that he has listened to their shit and seen the error of his ways, he will now order her to do what he says and she will, because of number two above.
And so on.
One of the things that gets me the most is that this and similar crap comes as much from the female protesters as much as the males--they have really bought this religious bullshit and apparently accept that they are second class. At best. Because of what "Eve" did and so they must suufer and submit and all that other loony shit.
The religiously-inspired racial bullshit I hear from them is just as bad.
Kraid @ 77;
This is something that I have never understood about those men whose misogyny is born from sexual insecurity. I would have thought that a greater sense of validation could be had from winning a woman's affection than from trying to dominate her. If you seek to dominate, you prove that you are incapable of convincing the woman of the worth of your own attributes without resorting to a form of coercian.
If you can win a woman's affection by virtue of the content of your character, the quality of your intellect and the warmth of your personality, then she has freely chosen you because of your worth as a human being. Because you treat her with respect and because she sees you as an equal who is worth building a meaningful relationship with.
Surely this is a healthier and better way to go? Surely this is a more positive validation of your worth as a man, if you are the type of man who feels the need for such validation?
That's the problem with subtractive masculinity (e.g. "everything which is not feminine is masculine"). As soon as women, or by extension, "the feminine," start making social gains at all, men who define masculinity as "anything femininity is not" will find their masculinity threatened.
Personally, I think the answer is to get rid of binary gender altogether. You're always going to have the odd person who feels their physical equipment doesn't match what's inside their head, but for the rest of us who are not too bad with being male or female, but absolutely hate having to be masculine or feminine, we're off the hook.
Having three or four or ten genders would be great! Insecure guys who are perpetually terrified their dicks are going to fall off would have to find something new to fixate on.
I should have said "reproductive health clinic" instead of just women's reproductive health. Men get looked at and served at these clinics as well.
My bad.
Reproductive health services aren't just for women. I guess I could have also made it clear that the abortion thing is the focus of the "pro-lifers" (or as I call them, the "right-to-tell-you-how-to-live-your-lifers.") Men and women go there for lots of things that have nothing to do with abortion or contraception.
Sorry. My apologies for the omission.
Actually, as gardeners know, pansies are pretty tough, and can stand up to a wider range of temperatures than many other annuals, despite their delicate appearance.
We already have a cure: curiosity.
Every mouth-breathing knuckle-dragging protohuman we've ever met, like the OP spouting this intellectual sewage, suffers from chronic crippling incuriousness.
They believe they already have all the answers so there's no need to listen to, and think about any other opposing viewpoints. They infect their families with this disease, which manifests itself in males as TBD (tingly ball disease) and females as TB-Co (Tingly Ball Co-dependency).
Incuriousness can be treated with massive dosages of reason and knowledge, delivered in a book matrix and paired with supervised abstinence from religion.
Unfortunately, most advanced-stage sufferers are too far gone for a cure, thus treatment should begin as early as possible -- the younger the patient, the better.
@Legion
Re Tingly ball disease
Our homeschool motto is "if you're not learning, you're probably dead." I work very hard when I run summer camps populated by kids who attend schools to get the kids to grasp this idea, and thanks to this thread, I finally have a name for how kids end up in 5th grade, breathing, but with dead curiosity. It's tingly-ball disease.
I'm going to think up slogans to put on buttons about combating TBD - suggestions eagerly anticipated.
Legion, that was brilliant. When I get to medical school I will have to investigate TBD and TN-Co more, for I am quite curious.
I have to admit that while I love reading this blog, sometimes I get depressed after reading things like this. Its the feeling you get when you know there is nothing you can do about a problem. Kinda like finding out you have herpes or something. I am reminded every day that humans are excessively prone to teh stoopid brain herpes. Its highly contagious, you know, and there seems to be some sort of correlation between this disease and participating in organized religion and/or having been spurned by your 5th grade crush.
-Artemis
That's funny. While in Papua New Guinea the women were telling me "the men are always starting wars and we have to try to stop them". Boys from one tribe beat or rob folks from another tribe, so the other tribe is obliged to get a group together and thump the first tribe. The boys can't be sent to the other village to negotiate because they'll likely end up killing eachother, so the women go over to negotiate the peace offering. Pigs seem to be one of the most highly prized things. So the women complain that if the boys just weren't so barbaric they might not get into so many fights.
I guess one other problem of women in politics is that they tend to support things like abortion and contraceptives - all those things that religions fear and hate.
OK, since part of being maternal is calling one's kid on total bullshit and bad behavior, I'd be glad to impose some maternal caring behavior. No problem. Let's just say there will be some logical consequences for this sort of talk.
we have to be ignorant, brutal, and ready to go off to war whenever our testicles tingle…and if you aren't, you're a "pansy".
butbutbut...
pansies are purty...
"I guess one other problem of women in politics is that they tend to support things like abortion and contraceptives"
...and education...
" - all those things that religions fear and hate."
I wonder if Palin, Bachmann, etc, will take notice.
hmmm...
Palin calls groups of women anti-abortion political activists "Mama Grizzlies"
Is that what you mean?
:P
Re Mama Grizzlies
So if that woman at that Catholic hospital in Arizona had died of pulmonary hypertension, she would have been the victim of a "bear attack?" Are there bells and sprays one can purchase for that? Any way to hang one's life in a tall tree out of their reach?
pansies are purty...
I think those pansies look rather butch
Oh, man. Not this again.
"We men would be so much more manly and take our place as the rightful leaders of the world if only those uppity feminist women would let us!"
So, how about it women? Can we men be real men again? Please?
So if that woman at that Catholic hospital in Arizona had died of pulmonary hypertension, she would have been the victim of a "bear attack?"
Yes, and now you know why Stephen Colbert says:
"I believe all God's creatures have a soul — except bears, Bears are actually Satan's children."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsTVK9Cv9U8
@ Brownian
No. Now lick my boot. And where's Naked Bunny With a Whip?
So...managing a household, including multiple schedules, children, household finances, and the health of household members along with a strength in diplomacy and negotioation is a bad thing?
But warlike men dripping with machismo is good?
Does not compute! This is one of the few cases where I am offended. Suddenly, being a Real Man™ is not being what someone considers a pansy? Being the complete opposite of feminine?
So, I guess the fact that I like dick automatically rules me out foe political office. Or is the fact that I have about as much machismo as Elton John? It's just as well that I don't want to be in political office around a bunch of beer-swilling macho jerks, then.
No. Now lick my boot.
thankyoumistress.
mayihaveanother?
@Ichthyic
I believe you already have a meatspace partner from Pharyngula. So she's in charge of your disciplinary needs. Plus I hear from Ravelry that she's making you a sweater, so you'll have to be disciplined extra to deserve that.
It's just as well that I don't want to be in political office around a bunch of beer-swilling macho jerks, then.
frankly, that's kinda become(?) the problem with politics.
Nobody who makes any sense ever wants to actually be involved with them, which leaves all the nutters to ruin the rest of our lazy-ass lives.
I wonder how this discussion would proceed if we were all hermaphrodites?
Brownian, OM:
Depends. How good are you at growing pansies?
Actually, it's that I am much more interested in policy than I am politics. I do well enough in diplomatic discussions, but I am too much of an idealist to deal with some of these people who can't see past the ends of their noses.
The "beer-swilling macho jerks" line was more a reference to my own life and that the poster seems to think this is the ideal politician. As if having an education and a desire to discuss issues weren't better qualifications.
Plus I hear from Ravelry that she's making you a sweater, so you'll have to be disciplined extra to deserve that.
She's chastising me with merino as I write this.
Imaginary gods, I want to smack guys like that. A religious nutter approached me in a coffee shop one day when I was hanging out with my toddler and informed me that men were becoming "wusses" because they were taking care of the kids (that being work for the woman-folk). Really? Tell you what, tough guy. Take this little ape's pacifier from him and then deal with the explosion without losing your cool. Then you tell me who's a wuss.
I don't see anything wrong with getting all class-concious about this. This guy is a hick. He couldn't talk a line of shit like this in an urban area where the marraige market is magnitudes more competitive.
I wonder how this discussion would proceed if we were all hermaphrodites?
Clearly the ones who are male on teh *RIGHT* side must rule over the shy, nurturing left-siders.
you're assuming that manliness is validated by approval from women. this is incorrect; it is validated (and gained) by approval from other men; approval from women mean's shit, or worse, it can infest you with girl-cooties. in toxic masculinity, women are the enemy to be conquered, not a person whose approval matters and can validate you.
ignore that stray apostrophe
bullshit. the very same attitudes infest high-income businesses and college campuses everywhere.
This is why you can't bear reading religious boards? But this is exactly what makes them so entertaining!
(See 'Fundies Say the Darndest Things' [fstdt] for the best examples.)
Jadehawk makes a very important point--Guys like this are performing theater piece for other men. They spend their lives afriad and see all men as a potential threat. They don't want to have to think about gaining a woman's actual trust and affection when merely destroying her self esteem will keep her in thrall--and has the added benefit of making they look like a "tough guy".
She is also right that it transcends socio-economics. Frat boys are the most misogynistic bastards to be found anywhere--I mean what can you say about a guy whose favorite type of woman is "drunk"?
Okay, to be fair to the Baptists, it looks like most of the replies on that board are in strong disagreement. Even if the disagreement is phrased less in terms of equal-rights-you-sexist-douche (although there are a couple of that) and more in the same vein along which Christians sometimes "defend marriage": "Oh, you need both the male and female essences in politics". Still, that's a definite improvement from the way this would have been discussed a mere sixty years ago.
This one post of agreement, however, takes the cake:
Unpopular, Cutter, but biblical.
That poster's forum signature is:
"For the snake that has been holding me in it's grasp has been cast away into the firey pits of hell, whence it came from, but I now am mounted on my new found faith and I am flying up to the heavens to live with my God forever." -my 10-year old son.
Reading that, I can't help but assume that this son was a part of a Christian suicide cult or something. Yeeeesh.
chaseacross:
Boy, are you ever wrong. That's seriously not so. Men of all stripes indulge in this type of thinking, there's no barrier. There's a reason the powerful Old Boys Network is still going strong.
Somebody needs to slap this fool silly!... I mean, punch this fool's face silly!...wait, I mean.... DAMNIT!!!
Somebody needs to slap this fool silly!... I mean, punch this fool's face silly!...wait, I mean.... DAMNIT!!!
only pansies can't be clear about what they really think.
;)
Why are Christian guys such pansies?
I've always liked pansies. They're very pretty flowers.
Aw, but I wanted to go start wars with the rest of the guys. *Pouts and acts out passive-aggressively by leaving the toilet seat up and posting poorly-informed misogyny on fundamentalist Christian boards*
But I think Jadehawk in #111 is right; this is high school guys' locker room talk. Apparently this guy didn't get the memo that high school isn't supposed to last beyond one's teen years.
Cutter, you idiotic schmuck: Someone failed to inform you that your backwards ways of "thinking" is irrelevant. Go stroke yourself in private, please...
lenoxus, quoting some fundie idiot, wrote:
Yet another aspect of Christianity I've never understood. If their god wanted them to live with him forever, why not just create humans in heaven and save all the bother of having to exist on earth in the first place? It makes no fucking sense.
Oh, and someone should tell the poor indoctrinated child (and/or his sick idiot-fuck parent) that it's means it is and that whence means from where - so the from in whence it came from is redundant.
</pedant>
So all these guys on the Baptist site are members of the George Rekers Club? Why am I so not surprised? Actual out gay or bi guys, being able to admit that they like guys, are thus able to actually talk to women without their dicks falling off. Which, paradoxically, makes them real men. There are real men who are straight, but not on the Baptist boards, I guess.
I've always liked pansies. They're very pretty flowers.
heh. see 90.
coincidence?
Interesting phallic imagery there...
"Foundationally Unthinking Criticism of Knowledge/Educational
Dysphoria combing Unremitting Psychosis" is due to be included
in
DSM-V.
Tingly Balls is the informal term when applied to men, but use of
this
term is falling into disfavour as it implies the exclusion of the,
although initially gender unspecifc, now femalial applicable Cannot
Understand Normal Thinking.
There is currently no known treatment for this mental illness
spectrum
however ingestion of multi-vitamin containing the replacement
nutrient
of naturaly synthesized Strychnine Transferased Functional Urea.
Patients in the acute stages of this disorder have exhibited
anecdotally favourable responses to the application of mace to the
relevant wound site(face) but this is undocumented. In the rare
cases,
pathologicaly irreversible verbiosity can only be remedied by
stopgap
measures such as intravenous hydrogen cyanide and profoundly
induced
subdural heamatoma.
scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/05/
no, I didn't say they're all gay. Just that they don't consider women to be real people whose opinion matters, and in the macho-game they're playing it's other dudes who are keeping score and whose opinion matters.
@ Jadehawk -
I would say that there's something profoundly and weirdly erotic about the way these guys define masculinity with respect to and value the opinion of other men. Gay is certainly the wrong word to use, but I would say that it's definitely some sort of not-all-that-fun perv thing. (Plus I know that it would make them bleed from the ears to have their masculinity described as erotically connected to other straight guys.)
#85: You're right about these cretins suffering from terminal incuriosity, but not about them thinking they have all the answers. On the contrary, a lot of their insecurity is a result of them realizing, perhaps only subconsciously, that there's a great big diverse world out there that they just don't understand.
But rather than try and understand it, they either ignore it (best case) or denigrate it (common case).
Insecurity is therefore a symptom, not a cause. Curiosity has to be suppressed at all costs, because otherwise they might learn some truth that conflicts with their world view.
Shit, and here I thought that tingly balls was caused by some kind of invertebrate infestation. No wonder the Permethrin didn't work.
Can any of you doctor types tell me if invading the next door neighbours* is going to be enough to cure me, or am I going to have to get involved at the nation-state level?
*Our neighbours are a country pub, so it'll be easy to recruit for this war.
Jadehawk, OM @ 109;
I would have thought that a functional, heterosexual concept of 'manliness' is, or should be, validated by approval from women (I would assume that for homosexual men things would be different, but the values of respect for your partner would still hold) but, now that I think about it, I realise that you are right, and that these 'real men' suffer from even worse emotional problems than I thought. I cannot imagine what it must be like to live under the weight of such a perverse and harmful construct of masculinity. If they were not such bigoted, misgynist bastards I would feel sorry for them.
How on earth does a person come back from such a deep seated hatred and fear of women? Is it even possible to acheive any measure of interpersonal normalcy after one has been indoctrinated so completely? I am very glad that my upbringing did not warp me in such a fashion.
a_ray_in_dilbert_space @ 113;
Nothing good, and little that does not include a great deal of angry profanity and justified outrage. Such cretins are beneath contempt.
Mattir @ 128;
Yes, I can imagine the utter, apopletic rage that such a description would evoke. The defensiveness, the 'tough guy' posturing, the recounting of increasingly unlikely alledged sexual escapades with women, the threats of physical violence and maybe, just maybe, a deep unacknowledged part of them that fears that this analysis strikes uncomfortably close to home.
All in all, a fine evening's entertainment...
I think Jadehawk and others are right on- there are very strong homosocial, if not homoerotic, overtones to our Baptist friend's vision of his own manhood. Queer theorist Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick wrote a whole book on the ways in which heterosexual "masculinity" is constituted in and through homosocial activities, rather than heterosex or relationships with women. Women are almost entirely unnecessary to the making of this kind of "man", except, of course, as a sort of endless supply of cheap labor that keeps the whole edifice afloat. Kosofsky's the one credited with coining the term homosocial, in fact.
One of my favorite QTs... even if her prose isn't to your taste, her books are well worth reading. She was apparently friends with queer sci-fi author Samuel Delany.
What I've always found fascinating is that, while manhood is defined almost solely by men and through homosocial activities, most people are under the impression that "femininity" is something women do for and through male approval. In other words, while I think a lot of "feminine" posturing is something women do for the benefit of other women (shoe fetishism, for example), it seems that the majority of people think that a woman can only ever perform her femininity for men.
A few years ago that I saw a distinct pattern emerge. I realized that something a lot of the sexists I'd run into had in common was this strange tendency to strip individual agency away from women, while affording men all kinds of it. One of the ways they'd do this (you see this a lot in sex-negative, anti-porn activists) was by assuming that any sort of social performance a woman gives, any allegedly feminine mannerism, simply must be for the "Male Gaze". No exceptions. It's astonishing once you notice this, how you see people on the right and left alike doing it without really thinking twice. It comes up especially with regard to women's sexual choices; the assumption is almost always that a woman did it for a man's pleasure or because a man cajoled her into it.
I've had long discussions with a lot of feminists who make a big deal about "raunch culture", and their primary objection to it seems to be that women would only act sexually, put on a campy sexual performance, in order to please men and because they were manipulated by society into doing so. But being queer, this is not wholly self-evident to me: I think women do all sorts of things just for themselves, or for their social circle, or because they want to assert themselves or play with their identity. Sometimes in productively political ways.
I'd like to see the homosociality of womanhood discussed a lot more than it is, I guess, is my point.
These bozos keep providing opportunities to point out as above that Timothy is a blatant forgery.
Uh oh, look at what I went and did. Hehehe.
I was mildly surprised at some of the more *cough* liberal *cough* responses Cutter elicited and was definitely entertained by his completely tone deaf response to one commenter as noted by Legion @49.
One thing that did strike me though, I don't really see anyone on that BB thread trying to pull out the Big ol' Book of TRUTH™ to settle the matter once and for all. Certainly the answers must be in there somewhere? Something more than some vague reference to a biblical character or two? WWJD?
Recently I'd been listening to Hector Avalos and he points out how even among believers the Bible is becoming less and less relevant in today's world. I think that thread displays a little bit of that. I suppose for a clearer view, one would have to have a decent idea of how many of them have actually read the thing. Ah well, it's just a big book of multiple choice anyway, a Rorschach test for morality.
* In fairness I have to give another hat tip to FSTDT. The contributors over there certainly make it easier to skim the crazy-cream off the top. That said, I've been down more rabbit holes of loon-ery than I'd care to admit. See this mental scar right here ? ... got that on a Conservapedia talk page in September of '08.
I'm glad you brought this up. The idea that these men act to impress other men and that the rest of us don't is untrue. Men seek out male approval as much if not more than they do female approval, and in fact we tend to look askance at men that appear to act solely for the latter. It's unseemly for a guy to only want to attract women, for instance, and if he doesn't sit down and have a beer while watching the game (or go to a car show, or play D&D, or simply just hang out with guys doing whatever he and his guy friends like to do) once in awhile, he'd be considered socially non-normal.
I suspect women act similarly, in that they seek female approval as much or more than they do male approval.
I should note that I'm only using hetero men as an example for simplicity's sake (and that it's the gender and orientation I'm most familiar with.) The reality is that our sexual orientations and sexual identities are much more complicated than that, and maybe that's what's striking us as odd about this "True Men™ don't listen to women" business; it's idiot-simple and unrepresentative of how most humans really are.
What I think I'd consider 'healthiest' is someone who considers the perspective of both genders when constructing their identity, whichever gender(s) that person is sexually attracted to.
Forgive me if this doesn't make sense; I spent yesterday being uncharacteristically physically active, and I'm still exhausted.
See? Trading scar stories; that's exactly the type of thing even us liberal men do to impress other men as much as women.
So, Cutter's* a dildo, but he's not totally aberrant. The difference is that most of us know when to turn off the primate display and get honest. (Okay, well, we know when to do that most of the time, er, some of the time, uh, on occasion, I hope.)
Okay, gotta bail on this thread and hang with the housemates.
I keep on reading this page as "Penises Everywhere"
** ahh crap, I missed the last few posts on that thread first time around. Looks like Dragoon went for it there at the end. Still a rather low scripture\post ratio however.
And if you happen to be one of those women who are impressed by my mental scar and happen live in the Chicagoland area ...
Wakka Wakka Wakka
@20:
All good examples. The ignorance of the Baptist's post speaks volumes, but likely the evidence-free thinking will not change, no matter how much evidence piles up. But nonetheless, I submit for consideration, from an obscure corner of history, the following:
Weak and unable to make "tough calls" you say?! How does he walk with his head shoved up into that warm, moist place?
I've heard women cannot be good computer programmers from several 'liberal' and 'skeptic' dudes. Misogyny is a problem all around. Hateful religious corners of the internet just talk about their sexist bullshit in a very specific way.
I hope you all know that backwards ass christian dudes all high five each other for not making their wives wear veils like some sexist muslims do. I get the same familiar feeling whenever tons of dudes gather around to condemn those sexist people over there, and oh my, would you look at how sexist that sort of dude is?
skeptifem:
Oh yes. These are the same "good, christian" men who count on their wives being properly submissive and modest, but that ain't at all like those sexist fellows over there who follow the wrong religion and all. It's all the same crap.
My mother always made me clear a path to my bed and wear underwear under my nightgown in case the firefighters had to come rescue me in the middle of the night.
My floor is now an obstacle course designed to keep me on my toes and I sleep naked. I still expect to be rescued if there's a fire.
Somehow I managed to post this in the wrong thread. how embarrassing. Again I shall hide behind exhaustion and illness.
I love the discussion of subtractive masculinity going on here, it makes me so happy that there are feminist allies in the atheist camp.
Sometimes I'm too tired to perform femininity.
wimpy women politicians . . . like Margaret Thatcher ?
Right... a regular pansie, that.
(Panzer is more like )
The list of strong or even heroic women is legion.
consider just these few from memory:
Gráinne Ní Mháille
Boudica
Joan d'Arc
Elizabeth I
Women and men are equal in status and value, they just have complementary roles. So while we manly men go make powerful decisions about everything, why don't you women go and make us some nice cupcakes or fold our laundry or something. And no, you're not property; we appreciate your helping the male gender. You just don't have what it takes for this tough-call stuff. Even though males are by and large becoming less qualified and thereby allowing women with perceived higher merit into office, God made you less able in this respect as the Bible says implies suggests.
Do tell.
So, as an experiment, I decided to post the original comment on /b/.
Predictions?
And the thread died almost immediately with no comments.
Dammit, when did /b/ stop being smart people pretending to be stupid and become stupid people pretending to be smart people pretending to be stupid?
The list of strong or even heroic women is legion.
consider just these few from memory:
Gráinne Ní Mháille
Boudica
Joan d'Arc
Elizabeth I
Or how about Tomyris, Queen of the Massagetai, a monarchy in what is now Iran. She allegedly wiped out Cyrus the Great and 250,000 of his troops because he wanted to marry her, she refused, and, the last straw, he kidnapped then murdered her son trying to coerce her into ceding her land and people to him.
According to Herodotus, it was one of the bloodiest battles of its time. Tomyris had promised Cyrus that he would have more blood than he could drink, and she delivered.
Q. What's the difference between a pansy and the original BaptistBoard poster?
A. One is a fragile organism that lacks a brain, is easily crushed, has been cultivated to conform to someone else's idea of desirable traits, and is rooted in one place that it will never leave. The other is a flower.
Huh... I'm getting a reading on my unintentional irony meter.
*tap tap*
Nah, it's probably nothing.
Man, I had no idea there were so many doofs out there. This "Cutter" nutter reminds me of some of the locals I've jousted with, but possibly more overtly stupid.
I got the same thing, especially at the part where the behaviour of backwards ass christian dudes was femsplained to us.
Now I'm really screwed. Here I had all these female friends who I thought were my equals along with my male friends, and now I find out I can only be valid if I put others (females and pansies) beneath me. Not only that, but all these friends of mine who treat each other as equals are screwed, too, and they don't even know it. Shit. My whole peer group is going to burn in hell.
Having just read several articles on hollywood's still ingrained misogyny, I have very little pity for "Obviously we're not at all misogynist in any way, so we can always mock these misogynist jackasses".