I realize that some of my readers will chide me for saying this, but I usually expect better of Reason. Although I sometimes have a tendency to be a bit—shall we say?—Insolent about libertarians when they pass from a reasonable defense of civil liberties into an Ayn Rand-inspired fantasy world in which the market cures all, useless people keep the supermen (and women) down, and the government is virtually unnecessary, I’ve usually considered Reason.com to represent a fairly—if you’ll excuse the word—reasonable variety of libertarianism. For instance, Ronald Bailey actually once presented what he called a pragmatic argument for coercive vaccination. Unfortunately, this time around, Reason.com has gone totally off the deep end when it comes to “health freedom,” presenting arguments, in essence, for the death of an Amish girl whose family has refused to complete her chemotherapy for a deadly childhood malignancy because, in a nutshell, parental rights must rule supreme. If you wonder whether I’m being too harsh on Reason.com and Tracy Oppenheimer, who, apparently, is responsible for this medical atrocity, read on.

Sarah Hershberger, as regular readers will recall, is an 11-year-old Amish girl from northeast Ohio, an area of the country with which I am well familiar, having spent eight years in Cleveland doing my residency and obtaining my PhD, who was diagnosed last year with lymphoblastic leukemia. She underwent one full course of chemotherapy (out of five courses planned over more than two years), which is the standard of care for the particular variety of leukemia she has. Unfortunately, her family stopped her chemotherapy early in her second course, after the induction phase had been completed, but only a dose or two into her consolidation phase. The reason this is so dangerous, as I’ve explained before, is that recurrence rates are very high after just the induction phase. Without the four other phases of chemotherapy required for this malignancy, there’s a high probability that her leukemia will recur, and when it recurs it will be a more resistant variety, having already been “selected” with one course of chemotherapy. Might she “get away with” only one phase of her chemotherapy? It’s possible, but very unlikely, and, given that full course treatment results in long term survival rates upwards of 85%, not completing the full five phases of chemotherapy is very much endangering this child.

In response to this understandable (given that Sarah was suffering side effects) but profoundly dangerous (to Sarah) action, Akron Children’s Hospital did a highly admirable thing. It brought legal action to appoint a guardian for purposes of medical decision making. This decision led to the Hershbergers fleeing Ohio in order to subject Sarah to quackery. Meanwhile quacks everywhere were furiously spinning, claiming that “natural healing” techniques that the Hershbergers had sought out had rendered her disease free. Most recently, I sadly and reluctantly concluded that Sarah was probably doomed, as the 1851 Center for Constitutional Law, headed up by a crank named Maurice Thompson, had taken the case. When last I left the case, Sarah Hershberger apparently had come home to die. (I realize that that’s not what Thompson and the Hersbhergers were saying, and certainly that’s not what supporters of quackery were admitting, but I had my rasons for concluding it.) Throughout it all, I contended (and still contend) that those arguing for the right of the Hershberger family to deny Sarah lifesaving treatment for a highly curable cancer (85% five year survival) cared far more for “parental rights” than they did about the rights of Sarah Hershberger to live. Currently, as I’ve discussed before, Sarah’s medical guardian, Maria Schimer, resigned. Apparently the court didn’t accept her resignation until March 4, and currently her medical guardian is Judge Kevin Dunn. (I can’t link to the source right now because it’s down.) What will happen next is anyone’s guess.

Tracy Oppenheimer’s brain dead video piece on Reason.com, in which she lets Maurice Thompson advocate for parental rights above all, even if it means the “freedom” for the Hershbergers to let Sarah die a horrific death from leukemia, is entitled Amish vs. the Courts: Family Speaks Out on Fleeing the U.S. to Save Daughter from Court-Mandated Chemo. I don’t recall recently having seen such a one-sided piece about the Hershbergers outside of the usual sources, such as It’s truly painful to watch, as it basically argues that parental rights trump all:

)

Try not to facepalm too many times when Thompson is speaking. I had a deep hand print on my face, so epic were the facepalms. I should sue Thompson for emotional distress due to flaming stupidity burned into my brain.

Part of the reason I had to blog about this is that the video reveals some things that hadn’t yet been revealed. For instance, featured in the video is a woman described as “health practitioner Angela Lowther. Lowther is an ND; i.e., a naturopath, or, as I like to call the Not a Doctor. It didn’t take much Google-Fu to find her at the Seeds of Wellness clinic in Avon Lake, OH, where she is described thusly:

Angela has owned Healthy Balance Wellness Center since 2008 and has been in practice as a natural health practitioner since 2005 starting out in California.

She is a Doctor of Natural Medicine (ND), Certified Natural Health Practitioner (CNHP), D.PSc – Diplomate of Pastoral Science for PMA and a licensed health provider for PMA, Veterinary Aide, Digital Health Specialist (QBS) – Quantum Biofeedback Specialist, a Digestive Care Specialist for Advanced Naturals, an Independent Consultant for doTerra Essential Oils and Certified AromaTouch Technician for doTerra.

Quantum Biofeedback Specialist? Essential oils? AromaTouch? Those modalities are some serious quackery there. I also note that Lowther’s partners at the clinic where she works includes Rev. Pat Beers, a psychic, medium, clairvoyant, and psychometrist (described as someone who “uses your objects to pick up vibrations”), while also claiming to be able to communicate with animals. Completing the team is Rev. Donna Bretz, who is described as a psychic reader, Reiki Master, Hypnotherapist and ordained Minister. She’s also described as an intuitive empath and uses Angel Cards and Oracle Cards to “help her connect with her Spirit People to receive the answers you seek.”

This is the practitioner to whom the Hershbergers turned to help their daughter get through chemotherapy? No wonder it didn’t take too much for them to be willing to stop treatment, particularly given that one of Sarah’s relatives, LeRoy Keim, is a multilevel marketer for a “natural” weight loss system known as Zija. One can only wonder what nonsense Lowther was filling their heads with. Of course, the Hershbergers must have been susceptible to the nonsense, given that they took Sarah to Lowther in the first place. Meanwhile, in Oppeheimer’s piece, Lowther is allowed to blather on about how natural remedies “boost the immune system” (really, she actually said that at around 2:10 in the video). She also told Oppenheimer that Sarah’s doctors weren’t open to considering any natural supplements. Well, of course they weren’t! They were focused on using science-based medicine to provide Sarah with the best chance that they could possibly give her of surviving her cancer and living to a ripe old age and likely didn’t need to be worrying about whether this herb or this supplement might be interacting or interfering with Sarah’s chemotherapy and other drugs.

We also learn that the Hershbergers were in Mexico, having taken a three and a half day journey from Ohio. The clinic in Mexico where Sarah was treated is not revealed, but unfortunately there are many to choose from, particularly in Tijuana but not limited to Tijuana. The Mexican border is long, and Mexico is a big country. Oppenheimer writes that the Hershbergers wouldn’t provide details of Sarah’s “alternative” treatments, but that information is readily available if she had bothered to do one bit of research for her piece. I noted it months ago in an anti-chemotherapy piece written by David Augenstein:

Andy explained in general terms some of the treatment and nutritional supplements, including high doses of vitamin C and B17, oxygen therapy, detoxification methods, as well as the IV chelation to deliver some of these to Sarah’s bloodstream. He also explained how the doctors arrived at a cancer-free status. She is now on a special diet including lots of vegetables and raw foods and taking special natural supplements, as prescribed by the foreign doctors.

Funny how I found this so easily, and Oppenheimer did not. Funny how also no one is presented to point out that high dose vitamin C for cancer doesn’t work, that B17 (laetrile) is cancer quackery that was discredited 30 years ago, and that “detoxification” and chelation are among the most nonsensical of quackeries aside from the ones that are, like Reiki and therapeutic touch, essentially magical faith healing. What Oppenheimer is doing in her piece is promoting the ability of parents to withhold effective medical treatment in favor of quackery. One wonders if she would have taken the same tack if she knew that the “natural remedies” that Sarah’s parents have chosen include laetrile. Given the ideological bent of this piece, my guess is that it wouldn’t have made a difference. What’s the life of a child compared to…FREEEDOMMMM!

The video starts out with Maurice Thompson of the 1851 Center for Constitutional Law, a dubious far right advocacy group, opining that “Having a free society means that people need to be free to take risks, including risks with their family, when they are suitable and loving parents.” Thompson got half of that right. If he had simply said that having a free society means that people need to be free to take risks, I’d have no problem with that. Competent adults should be free to take risks, and I’ve always said that competent adults can choose whatever treatment they want for themselves, be it science-based or quackery. The key phrase in that sentence is “for themselves.” Children are not considered competent to make such decisions for themselves, and we don’t let them. We can argue about what age children become sufficiently competent to make such decisions, but few would argue that an 11 or 12 year old is competent to make health decisions like deciding whether to do chemotherapy or not. That’s the parents’ job.

So far, so good. But what happens when the parents fail, which is what is happening now? Thompson and Oppenheimer spend lots of time in the video portraying the Hershbergers as loving “suitable” (legal language) parents. That’s a total straw man argument. Thompson also says:

It’s one thing for society, government, for experts to overrule parents who are abusive, or who are neglectful or who perhaps lack the capacity to properly care for their children, and it’s imperative to emphasize that none of those are the case here.

No one—and I mean, no one—is saying that the Hershbergers aren’t loving parents. I certainly have no doubt that the Hershbergers love their daughter as much as any parents can love their child. I also have no doubt that they think they are doing the right thing for her. Unfortunately, cancer doesn’t recognize good intentions. These parents are making a profoundly harmful choice for their daughter, one that is very likely to prevent her from ever seeing adulthood. As I said before, she might luck out, and the chemotherapy that she’s received thus far might be enough, but it’s far more likely that it is not and that her cancer will recur. Considerable time is taken in the video, with Lowther, Sarah’s parents, and Thompson all gushing over how normal and “energetic” Sarah is right now. Oppenheimer cheerily adds to the illusion by narrating herself how fantastic Sarah looks. That’s totally a red herring that has no bearing on why she needs more chemotherapy. She might well seem perfectly fine now, but sooner or later her cancer will almost certainly recur. In the meantime, she’s being treated with quackery like laetrile. That is why, contrary to what Thompson is arguing, the reality is that the Hershbergers are abusive and neglectful. When parents, no matter how well-intentioned, medically neglect their children—and, make no mistake, Sarah Hershberger is a blatant case of medical neglect—it is right and just for society to step in. Medical neglect is abuse, parental intentions notwithstanding.

Arguments like Thompson’s piss me off to no end, because they basically devalue the life of the child and are rooted in the attitude that parental “rights” always trump the good of the child, at least as long as the parents look like nice, fine upstanding citizens. It’s why parents whose children die because they choose prayer over medicine are rarely severely punished in this country. What the Hershbergers are doing to Sarah is no different from that.

Tragically, this video makes it very clear that the Hershbergers were laboring under a delusion. They clearly don’t understand what is at stake. At one point in the video Thompson mentions that the Hershbergers decided to try “natural” treatments, with the belief that they could always go back to chemotherapy if the “natural” therapy failed. On the surface, this seems reasonable enough, but it’s based on a massive misunderstanding of cancer biology. What the Hershbergers don’t seem to understand (and what Oppenheimer doesn’t acknowledge) is that when Sarah’s cancer returns, it will be much harder to treat and far more likely to kill her, no matter what the pediatric oncologists at Akron Children’s Hospital (or any other pediatric cancer center) throw at her. The first chance is virtually always the best chance to cure any cancer, and the Hershbergers are wasting that chance. When Sarah’s cancer returns, oncologists might still be able to save her, but the odds of that will go down considerably.

Thompson also makes a very deceptive argument, pointing out that chemotherapy has significant risks, including infertility, secondary cancers, and even death. One notes that he mentions death first and very prominently. Sure, chemotherapy has significant risks. However, those risks pale in comparison to the risks of what the Hershbergers are doing now. The risk of death due to chemotherapy is much, much lower than the risk of death from cancer, and if you’re a child with cancer you won’t even have the risk of secondary malignancies and infertility of the cancer isn’t cured with appropriate treatment, mainly because you’ll die long before such chemotherapy-associated complications have the opportunity to manifest themselves.

The bottom line is this. The Hershbergers, as nice as they might be and as much as they might love Sarah, are letting her die, and her death will likely be very unpleasant. The State of Ohio and Medina County have profoundly failed in protecting Sarah from this, and far too many people are okay with this, out of a misguided fear of “trampling parental rights.” Maurice Thompson, through his advocacy of parental rights above all else, is complicit in the medical neglect being perpetrated by the Hershbergers. Worse, he’s trying to generalize it to all children, and if he prevails it will be open season on children for cancer quacks in Ohio. Reason should know better than to provide a propaganda organ for the misguided libertarians trying to defend parents who are medically neglecting their children.

Comments

  1. #1 Chris,
    May 3, 2014

    From Narad’s link, a lovely somitcw quote:

    We amputate most of the genitals of sons of poor, black, and ill-informed parents to try to decrease their population which hasn’t worked for 130 years. The amputation includes the ribs, most of the sexual nerves, and the protection for the remaining stub. The victim needs girlfriend tongue studs, ribbed condoms, and later will need viagra, or other chemicals to attempt getting normal sexual satisfaction and to fake normal human sex. In 18 states, medicaid laws partial protect sons of poor parents but not the other two groups. For 32 states, what the eugenicist step up still goes. Now, we wonder why sons of poor, black, and ill-informed have sexual issues.

    This is definitely a chew toy full of ignorance.

  2. #2 herr doktor bimler
    May 3, 2014

    #200 Narad
    Another winner.
    “do you believe that the osamacare crime against U.S. subjects has no cost?”
    You misspelled “Obanana.”
    #201 Narad
    this is a winner.

    Obviously there are *several* somitcws, all writing in the same strange approximation of English; and while one of them really hates contemporary evidence-based medicine, another one really loves contemporary evidence-based medicine, enough to get irate about government involvement therein.

  3. #3 Krebiozen
    May 3, 2014

    As I mentioned, most people that I knew that died, died from allopathic medicine, not the initial issue being treated. In the U.S.A., treatment is more fatal than disease.

    It’s amazing to me how many people make this claim, despite it being untenable given the slightest scrutiny. Is there some psychological benefit to believing we are all being killed by some evil medical conspiracy? If not, why is this such a popular delusion?

    Since “allopathic” medicine was developed, life expectancy has steadily increased, in the US it has increased by 8 years over the past 50 years alone. Healthy life expectancy has also increased dramatically; a study in the US found that between 1999 and 2008 “expected years of life are getting longer, health-related quality of life is improving, and health disparities between population groups are decreasing”. People are now healthier and more active at greater ages than ever before in human history (that includes the developing world where we see similar trends). This can’t all be down to improvements in plumbing, can it?

    Probably the greatest challenge to health care now and over the next few decades is our aging population, which is a direct result of the phenomenal success of modern scientific “allopathic” medicine.

    Yet somitcw claims that modern scientific medicine “is more fatal than disease”. I don’t suppose I’ll get an answer, but I would love to know how s/he maintains these beliefs in the face of these facts.

  4. #4 Renate
    May 3, 2014

    I suppose the reasoning behind this proposition is:
    People who are ill, get medication. Sometimes they die, while still having medication, thus medication killed them.
    I suppose most people die while having medication for some condition, especially when they are old. And of course, people will die in a hospital, if they are terminally ill.

  5. #5 LW
    May 3, 2014

    “people will die in a hospital, if they are terminally ill”

    Mortality rates in hospitals are far higher than in other buildings. somitcw should stay out of hospitals at all times.

  6. #6 Denice Walter
    May 3, 2014

    The mighty Krebiozen asks: ” Is there some psychological benefit…”

    Sure, in this manner of thinking, illness and death come from OUTSIDE** and are not intrinsic and inevitable parts of life processes, making them easier to deny.

    Woo-meisters make use of this human frailty- pushing negatives away, denying illness as natural- e.g.
    – doctors and hospitals cause death
    – meds cause mental illness
    – meds cause hiv/aids
    – foods cause cancer and CVD
    – vaccines cause autism
    ( sounds like a listing of health shows @ PRN)

    ** remember in Frazer how illness is caused by witchcraft?

  7. #7 Chemmomo
    Yeah, I know I'm not really contributing anything either . . . especially wiithout Preview
    May 3, 2014

    somitcw #151, 156, 159, 166, 168, 175, 182, 184

    I’ll be cutting replies short and will stop replying to posts that don’t ask for specific citations.

    I need rest and other things so will be offline for awhile.

    I will really be offline for many hours. Bye.

    I am trying to go and will soon.

    but I have other things that need my attention today

    Good-bye for the day. I really mean it this time.

    Good-bye for the day. I really mean it this time.

    (followed by somitcw #176)

    Logging off. I may be back tomorrow, May not.

    (my emphasis)

    I am really gone.


    Promises, promises. I can only hope that last one remains true.
    In response to Chris @180

    Chris, if you have anything to add to the discussion, please do. Weird, left-field, unintelligible requests do not benefit the discussion.

    I find myself wondering exactly what somitcw himself thinks he contributed to the discussion.

  8. #8 somitcw
    May 4, 2014

    From many posts, it seems that few people are aware of even basic facts about the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger, her parents, and the freedoms in the former U.S.A. A brief sequence of events:
    1. Sarah Hershberger became ill. At the time, she was 10 years old.
    2. Sarah Hershberger’s parents took her to an allopathic sales droid.
    3. The allopathic sales droid claimed that if the Hershbergers did not allow his long-running supposed chemo treatment plan that Sarah would die within two weeks. The apparently brain-dead Hershberger parents agreed.
    4. The allopath secretly switched from the promised chemo to a harsher experimental attempt at chemo. The harsher chemo replacement meant that there was no history to back up the already hogwash 85 percent recovery rate, the already hogwash 80 percent recovery rate, or the already hogwash claim that there was only a 50 percent chance of sterility. With Sarah’s at the age of starting sexual maturity, her chances of retaining fertility were slim to none. That is to say that the allopath was probably successful in sterilizing her.
    5. Sarah was taken for the second session of the harsh torture and quickly balked. That left Sarah’s parents with three choices:
    a. Do nothing understanding that Sarah could possibly die without any treatment,
    b. Accept the allopathic torture for two years treat, treat, treat plan to extend Sarah’s life to a guesstimate of possibly more than five years. I don’t believe that the five year goal was likely but that could just be me.
    c. Go for for a two month safe and effective traditional medical cure of a good diet, cancer fighting herbs, and other cancer fighting treatment.
    The Hershbergers went with “cure disease” over “do nothing” and over “treat symptoms”.
    6. While the Hershbergers were deciding, the state “justice” system got involved including a hostile judge and the Child “Protection” “Services”. They committed several crimes against the Hershbergers.
    7. The Hershbergers escaped. Traveled to another area in the former U.S.A. and then to Mexico for traditional medicine’s safe and effective treatment.
    8. The two month cure somehow stretched into four months before it was announced that Sarah was declared free of cancer. The missing two months could be because of treatment research time, travel time, and waiting to insure that the cancer was really gone.
    9. Two months after Sarah was declared cancer free, the allopaths and “justice” system eased up on their pursuit of the Hershberger. Eased up does not mean dropped.
    .
    A few people not living in the former U.S.A. might ask how much prison time the allopaths, allopathic hospital administrators, the judges, and the Child “Protection” “Services” workers got. They got and will get none. The reason is:
    U.S.A. – 1776-07-04 until 2001-10-26 – R.I.P.

  9. #9 somitcw
    May 4, 2014

    #196 herr doktor bimler posted, “Sarah Hershberger’s parents were originally told that Sarah would die in two weeks
    Oh really.”.
    Yes, really. It is a standard way that allopaths drum up business. Something like:
    You/your son/your daughter will die/be crippled/be blind in xx minutes/hours/days/weeks unless you authorize my treat and treat and treat and only my treat and treat and treat will save you/your son/your daughter.
    Not good for the victim but great for the allopath’s and hospital’s bank accounts.

  10. #10 somitcw
    May 4, 2014

    #197 Bill Price posted among other things, “Ok, somitw, here’s why your analysis doesn’t hold water. It’s from The Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 8 (there’s your citation, BTW):
    The Congress shall have Power … To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; …”.
    I don’t know if it is the poor education in the former U.S.A. and its replacement or that English is not your primary language.
    When there was a U.S.A. it had a U.S. Constitution. The Commerce Clause in the U.S. Constitution for the former U.S.A. made it clear that nation states participated in and controlled trade with other nation states, Indian tribes, and foreign nations. It also specified that the U.S. Congress could be called upon to make trade disputes regular. It does not specify why any U.S. nation state would ever be so non-intelligence as to call on the U.S. Congress to arbitrate any trade dispute.
    With and after the war of yankee aggression, the U.S. federal government took huge power grabs and passed unConstitutional laws to override much of the U.S. Constitution.

  11. #11 somitcw
    May 4, 2014

    #198 novalox posted, “@somitcw
    Again, why should anyone believe you when you will not provide any citations or actual evidence for your assertions, besides “research it yourself”
    All it proves is that you have no actual evidence to support your so-called viewpoints and that you have been actively lying to all of us here the entire time.”.
    .
    I see it differently. After I supply valid web search keywords and a poster cries that they are not competent to type “sv40” in DuckDuckGo.com or less secure web search engine, there is nothing that I can say to pick out which of the thousands of sites that they will find or to pick out which side of that discussion they want to read.
    When someone does look at the results from the search and needs clarification, they should ask. Please.

  12. #12 somitcw
    May 4, 2014

    #200 Uselesstwit posted, “I think that in somitcw’s world the definition of citation is BS that is repeated often enough. It must be frustrating when everyone including reality refuse to bow to his wisdom.”.
    I think that people wanting me to supply all of the education that they missed in school without even saying what areas they need information about is more BS.
    I think that people that make ridicules posts with unspecified requests but just to complain is BS.
    None of your BS forwards the discussion of the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger. Blowing smoke to try to cover the discussion provides no benefit.

  13. #13 somitcw
    May 4, 2014

    #202 Chris posted, “From Narad’s link, a lovely somitcw quote:
    We amputate most of the genitals of sons of poor, black, and ill-informed parents to try to decrease their population which hasn’t worked for 130 years. The amputation includes the ribs, most of the sexual nerves, and the protection for the remaining stub. The victim needs girlfriend tongue studs, ribbed condoms, and later will need viagra, or other chemicals to attempt getting normal sexual satisfaction and to fake normal human sex. In 18 states, medicaid laws partial protect sons of poor parents but not the other two groups. For 32 states, what the eugenicist step up still goes. Now, we wonder why sons of poor, black, and ill-informed have sexual issues.
    This is definitely a chew toy full of ignorance.”.
    .
    It is a small quote that doesn’t really provide much information, but what part of it do you feel is “full of ignorance”. I’m in the former U.S.A. and the crime is common. Of the reported two percent of the human males on Earth that lose most of their genitals, about 90 percent are reported to be in the U.S.A. If the same crime was committed against a non-human animal, I would be the first to scream animal abuse and could probable make a good case.
    Was your post meant to blow smoke to try to cover the discussion of the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger. Your smoke blowing provides no benefit to the discussion.

  14. #14 somitcw
    May 4, 2014

    What are so many people afraid of?
    Is a truthful discussion really that painful?
    #203 herr doktor bimler posted smoke to detract from the discussion about the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger.
    #204 Krebiozen posted smoke to detract from the discussion about the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger.
    #208 Chemmomo posted smoke to detract from the discussion about the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger.

  15. #15 novalox
    May 4, 2014

    @somitcw

    Again, where are your citations? You haven’t provided any, proving that you are not here for any honest discussion. You haven’t answered any of the questions the posters have asked of you as well, moving the goalposts and whining about people pointing out the innumerable flaws in your logic, as well as making false accusations.

    So again, unless you provide some actual citations or evidence for your viewpoints, any rational person with some sense can dismiss you and your claims as rubbish.

  16. #16 somitcw
    May 4, 2014

    New discussion:
    My question is: What caused Sarah Hershberger’s cancer?
    .
    Probably should be ruled out:
    .
    1. It was not the old or newer versions of the smallpox vaccine. While scraping cow DNA from cow pus into a human’s skin is not healthy, we stopped doing that decades before Sarah was born because the smallpox vaccine provided no benefit and caused disease.
    .
    2. It was not monkey virus number 40, SV40, in both polio vaccines from when the first was being created in 1952 with the fast acting strain supposed removed in 1963 and the slow acting strain supposedly not in the polio after the polio vaccine type switch in 1997. The 1997 switch was to both stop injecting children with SV40 and because polio vaccines provided no benefit here and the polio vaccine before the switch caused a few deaths and some disease every year. 1997 was before Sarah was born.
    .
    Some possibilities:
    .
    1. Was Sarah injected to the injected form, not oral form, of non-therapeutic injected vitamin K and two other harmful chemicals on the day that as a newborn, she least needed it? As in zero need or negative need. It is difficult to imagine any parent being brain-dead enough to consent to that crime but Sarah’s parents did later not only allow what they were told was chemo and then even took Sarah back to receive a second round.
    .
    2. Did Sarah Hershberger’s parents allow non-therapeutic vaccines that contained harmful chemicals and DNA from various animals and aborted human fetuses to be injected into Sarah’s blood stream? If a vaccine was the cause, then please identify which one it was so we can try to educate parents to protect their children from it until their children can protect themselves.
    .
    3. This one is a bit far out but entirely possible. Some human cancer existed before allopathic “medicine” which indicates that it is possible that Sarah’s cancer might not have been allopathic induced at all? As I said, a bit far out but entirely possible.

  17. #17 somitcw
    May 4, 2014

    #216 novalox posted a request for unspecified citations.
    Again again again he did.
    Can I assume that the request for unspecified citations means that you want me to cite the entire Internet, all libraries, all book stores, and all computer records?
    .
    Consider that cited.
    .
    Why don’t you contribute instead of blowing smoke?
    Is a truthful discussion really that painful to you?

  18. #18 Bill Price
    May 4, 2014

    To somitcw: I apologize for misspelling your ‘nym in an earlier posting.
    That taken care of: it seems that you are posting in the wrong universe. The universe you’re aiming for is one in which “former USA” is a term with meaning. In the universe you’re posting in here, the closest it could come to having meaning would be a reference to Cuba and The Phillipines, which were US possessions until the 1940’s, but which are now independent.
    If you were to honor us with a coherent history of your alternative universe (rather than incoherent allusions thereto), we could understand and appreciate your rantings.
    Since I was born and educated in The South, I am well aware that members of the former CSA (Confederate Sates of America) and their citizens are referring to with “War of Northern (or Yankee) Aggression”, at least in this universe. Is it the same in your universe?p>

  19. #19 Narad
    May 4, 2014

    Was your post meant to blow smoke to try to cover the discussion of the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger. Your smoke blowing provides no benefit to the discussion.

    There is no “discussion” that has issued from your rambling idiocy. You scarcely merit being ridiculed in the first place.

  20. #20 novalox
    May 4, 2014

    @somitcw

    Again, your continuing refusal to post citations for your assertions as well as your continual whinging on why you cannot provide any is noted that you are lying to us.

    You made the assertions, it’s your job, not ours to provide the evidence.

    So why should anyone take you seriously?

  21. #21 Bill Price
    May 4, 2014

    Where did my html markup go in #219? Yes, I missed the < after the last paragraph, but that’s no excuse. Let’s try again; maybe it won’t be a WoT this time. I’ll also change it a bit, so my first try can safely be ignored.
    To somitcw: I apologize for misspelling your ‘nym in an earlier posting.
    That taken care of: it seems that you are posting in the wrong universe. The universe you’re aiming for is one in which “former USA” is a term with meaning. In the universe you’re posting in here, the closest it could come to having meaning would be a reference to Cuba and The Phillipines, which were US possessions until the 1940′s, but which are now independent.
    If you were to grace us with a coherent history of your alternative universe (rather than incoherent allusions thereto), we could understand and appreciate your rantings.
    Since I was born and educated in The South, I am well aware that members of the former CSA (Confederate States of America) and their citizens are referring to with “War of Northern (or Yankee) Aggression”, at least in this universe. Is it the same in your universe? If so, your history-lesson assignment can be reduced to a statement of when our universes stared being different, and the pertinent differences between your universe and ours.
    It’s obvious that the differences include how the Sarah H story happened, since you’ve briefed us on how it unfolded in your universe, and we can easily compare your version with our knowledge of the history of this universe.

  22. #22 NumberWang
    May 4, 2014

    Has Sarah H been seen recently? I did a seach for mentions in the last month but got nothing new. I mean, given the fact that she has been totally cured with herbs, its a bit ungrateful of her parents not to show the world how good a job the Mexican clinic did. I imagine that they are struggling against big gov and big pharma, surely this is the boost they need? Probably this news is being suppressed…..yes that must be it. Although you’d think that THEY wouldn’t have time, given the number of poor, ill informed black willies they have to chop off. Goodness, how did they keep that one secret?

  23. #23 Krebiozen
    May 4, 2014

    somitcw,

    You stated that, “I don’t believe that the five year goal was likely but that could just be me”. Why do you believe that the conventional medical treatment for the type of cancer Sarah has is ineffective? Have you looked at the clinical trials that show 80-85% effectiveness? If so why don’t you believe them? Do you believe that the children in those studies are really dead from cancer, and that the researchers have lied about this?

    Are you aware what happens to children with this type of cancer without treatment? Did you know that as recently as the 1970s only 32% of patients survived for 5 years? Or do you think the historical accounts of children dying from this type of cancer are fake too?

    Why do you believe that the “traditional medical cure of a good diet, cancer fighting herbs, and other cancer fighting treatment” is “safe and effective”? What evidence do you have for this? Why would any rational person believe this?

    Why do you believe that “the smallpox vaccine provided no benefit and caused disease”? Where do you think smallpox disappeared to? It used to kill millions and is now eradicated. How can a rational person believe that vaccination was not an important factor in this?

    Why do you believe that SV40 causes cancer in humans? There have been very extensive studies of this, and cancer rates in those exposed to SV40 are no higher than in those not exposed (for example this study that included 69.5 million person-years of follow-up found lower cancer rates in those exposed to SV40 in the polio vaccine). Why would any rational person believe that SV40 causes cancer in humans?

    By the way:

    Some human cancer existed before allopathic “medicine” which indicates that it is possible that Sarah’s cancer might not have been allopathic induced at all? As I said, a bit far out but entirely possible.

    Cancer has existed for millions of years; wild animals get cancer, prehistoric man got cancer, even some dinosaurs show evidence of cancer. The suggestion that “allopathic” medicine is an important cause of cancer is entirely irrational.

    You asked:

    What are so many people afraid of?

    As Denice suggested, above, you are very clearly afraid of the truth, that we age and die, and that there is little we can do about this. As a defense you seem to have adopted a belief that there is some magical way of preventing illness and death, and that modern scientific medicine is causing it, when there is overwhelming evidence that this is not true.

    Is a truthful discussion really that painful?

    From where I’m sitting it is you that is avoiding a truthful discussion. You appear to have dismissed all the scientific evidence simply because it doesn’t fit your prejudices and paranoid conspiracy theories.

  24. #24 Krebiozen
    May 4, 2014

    Dammit, missed a link-closing tag. Sorry, but it still works.

  25. #25 Lawrence
    May 4, 2014

    Actually, based on the rant posted last night, it is obvious that our “friend” is completely certifiable & a nutjob…..give them enough rope and they always hang themselves.

  26. #26 herr doktor bimler
    May 4, 2014

    #203 herr doktor bimler posted smoke

    You have to admit, though, it is *good* smoke and not just patchouli incense.

  27. #27 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 4, 2014

    somitcw’s point 5c from #209:

    c. Go for for a two month safe and effective traditional medical cure of a good diet, cancer fighting herbs, and other cancer fighting treatment.
    The Hershbergers went with “cure disease” over “do nothing” and over “treat symptoms”.

    So diet and herbs cure cancer. Fine. Do they cause the same symptoms as cancer? If not, then they are “allopathic” remedies!!! Stop using “allopathic” as an epithet when you believe in remedies that do not cause the same symptoms as the disease they’re meant to treat!! By your own words, you believe in the efficacy of “allopathic” remedies!

  28. #28 Narad
    May 4, 2014

    Has Sarah H been seen recently?

    Not a word. Moreover, one might surmise that publicity hound Maurice, or at least Augenstein, would be all over the media had her cancer-free status been confirmed.

  29. #29 Chemmomo
    May the fourth be with you. . . .
    May 4, 2014

    somitcw #212

    I see it differently. . . When someone does look at the results from the search and needs clarification, they should ask. Please.

    I will repost my comment about you as question, asking for clarification: Exactly what do you think you are contributing to this discussion?

    All I’m reading is paranoid, anti-science and anti-government rants which happen to include an inability to format the date for signing of the Declaration of Independence, and poor formatting (Hint: google html tags, and find “Enter” on your keyboard.)

    It does not inspire confidence in your ability to evaluate information.

  30. #30 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 4, 2014

    All I’m reading is paranoid, anti-science and anti-government rants which happen to include an inability to format the date for signing of the Declaration of Independence, and poor formatting (Hint: google html tags, and find “Enter” on your keyboard.)

    And WTF happened on Oct 26, 2001 that brought the US’s existence to an end?

  31. #31 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 4, 2014

    Ah…according to the Weakipedia, the Patriot Act was signed into law by Bush. If I had to pick a date, it would have been January 20, 2001, when the losing candidate in the 2000 election was sworn in anyway, but they both involve Bush, so…potayto, potahto.

  32. #32 Chemmomo
    May the fourth be with you. . . .
    May 4, 2014

    For anyone lurking, because this is an important issue: somitcw’s suggestion that “non-therapeutic injected vitamin K” could have contributed to Sarah H’s cancer is not only ridiculous, but also misleading and dangerous.

    In 2013, four babies born in Tennessee were hospitalized because their parents refused the vitamin k injection at birth: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/814477
    Anyone who prefers a more personal perspective should read this mother’s story about what happened when her daughter hemorrhaged: http://cestsibonblog.wordpress.com/2014/03/07/why-it-happened-the-truth-about-vitamin-k-deficiency-bleeding/

  33. #33 ann
    May 4, 2014

    It does not specify why any U.S. nation state would ever be so non-intelligence as to call on the U.S. Congress to arbitrate any trade dispute.

    With and after the war of yankee aggression, the U.S. federal government took huge power grabs and passed unConstitutional laws to override much of the U.S. Constitution.

    ^^It’s possible that you don’t know how hateful the message you’re sending there is. And even probable.

    But FYI:

    It is.

  34. #34 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 4, 2014

    So somitcw is simultaneously a “War of Yankee Aggression” Neo-Confederate, aligning himself with the extreme right, and also disapproves of the right wing’s wet dream, the Patriot Act. Does it seem to anyone else that he’s a little confused?

  35. #35 Dangerous Bacon
    May 4, 2014

    Rev: “So diet and herbs cure cancer. Fine. Do they cause the same symptoms as cancer? If not, then they are “allopathic” remedies!!! Stop using “allopathic” as an epithet when you believe in remedies that do not cause the same symptoms as the disease they’re meant to treat!! By your own words, you believe in the efficacy of “allopathic” remedies!”

    No no no!!! “Allopathic” medicine means Greedy Bad A.M.A. Pharma Cut Burn Poison Suppression of Diet/Exercise/Herbs/Natural Remedies medicine!

  36. #36 brewandferment
    May 4, 2014

    apparently somitcw doesn’t understand that a citation means the specific details of the book/article/blogpost to which it is referring so that we can all look at it and be “reading off the same page” so to speak. Any random search for even the exact same keywords will often give different results. But even if the results were the same, that only narrows it down to whichever result any given person chooses to read, so it becomes impossible to be on the same page. So somitcw, how about if you would try to use a common citation format: I think most of us here would be happy with a link to the citation you want us to consider as evidence to your position.

    As to search engine, IIRC there are assorted search engines that tout their untraceability–you search, someone compiling data on can’t find you, and I think Duck Duck Go is one of them. Telling that somitcw is flogging it.

  37. #37 herr doktor bimler
    May 4, 2014

    Augenstein, would be all over the media had her cancer-free status been confirmed.

    I dunno. Such an announcement would interfere with Augenstein’s appeals for donations “for Sarah’s family”.

  38. #38 Helianthus
    May 5, 2014

    @TVBoK

    aligning himself with the extreme right, and also disapproves of the right wing’s wet dream, the Patriot Act. Does it seem to anyone else that he’s a little confused?

    Oh no, it’s crystal clear. The right-wing politicians who signed the Patriot Act did so in Washington, DC, i.e. in damn Yankee country. Ergo, they are not his right-wing nutties politicians and should be ignored.

  39. #39 Narad
    May 5, 2014

    After I supply valid web search keywords and a poster cries that they are not competent to type “sv40″ in DuckDuckGo.com or less secure web search engine

    But nobody has done this, now have they? Do you think SV40 is breaking news or something?

    there is nothing that I can say to pick out which of the thousands of sites that they will find or to pick out which side of that discussion they want to read.
    When someone does look at the results from the search and needs clarification, they should ask. Please.

    “Clarification”? Here. Short and sweet. Go clarify yourself.

  40. #40 somitcw
    May 6, 2014

    #233 Chemmomo, May the fourth be with you. . . . posted among other things:
    “For anyone lurking, because this is an important issue: somitcw’s suggestion that “non-therapeutic injected vitamin K” could have contributed to Sarah H’s cancer is not only ridiculous, but also misleading and dangerous.”.
    .
    Your first website is kept secret until joining. I’ll let them keep their secret and will not join. I assume that it is a fairytale about some child that weeks, months, or years after birth had some bleeding issue ignoring that vitamin K depletes in about two days.
    From your second web site:
    http://cestsibonblog.wordpress.com/2014/03/07/why-it-happened-the-truth-about-vitamin-k-deficiency-bleeding/
    “The sad thing is that while it is extremely rare, recent years have seen children suffering from VKBD more and more often.”.
    Which is a strange statement for an article to print when trying to say that vitamin k has some benefit.
    .
    For people that don’t understand vitamin k in the human body:
    Vitamin k is named for the German spelling of the word coagulate.
    First found in chickens but is in fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, mammals, etc.
    Human vitamin k is created by bacteria in the gut and must be replenished constantly.
    Without it during gestation, some fetal organs will not develop properly.
    Since a fetus does not produce any vitamin k, the mother supplies it.
    At a live birth, a newborn has natural vitamin k from their mother but it depletes in about two days. A newborn does not produce natural vitamin k until it is about their sixth day. That is one reason that Jewish traditional snip of the male genitals or the current amputation of most of the male genitals must be done within the first two days of birth or after the sixth day. The eighth day was designated. The third to fifth or sixth day gap in vitamin k has been normal for blood clotting for millions of years. It is natural and seldom causes issues. If a magic issue ever appeared, oral synthetic vitamin k could be used on any days from the second to the fifth or sixth. We don’t know what harm oral synthetic vitamin k causes. We should of course never treat an issue that doesn’t exist with non-therapeutic medication or non-therapeutic procedures because neither will cure what doesn’t exist and all medicine can cause harm. i.e. Use treatment when needed, never just to help allopathic bank accounts. They don’t need the help.
    Injected non-therapeutic synthetic vitamin k with two other harmful chemicals given at birth on top of the natural vitamin k that the baby already has in spades will probably not overdose the child on vitamin k, but will do no good. Reports of an increase of juvenile cancer of one in a thousand victims does indicate that harm can be caused. Sarah Hershberger’s cancer might be from a newborn non-therapeutic injected synthetic vitamin k with two other harmful chemicals injection. I don’t know.
    There is much more juvenile cancer than any supposed VKBD. Why risk killing thousands of children with juvenile cancer by using an absurd method to stop blood clotting issues? There is money to be made treating cancer but that is not the best reason to use.

  41. #41 somitcw
    May 6, 2014

    For anyone that is confused about the rise and fall of the United States of America:
    There were people that did not want to live under a government that they viewed as oppressive. Not near as oppressive as a government that would order a 10 or 11 year-old farm girl to be injected with unproven experimental chemicals that were too harsh for her to tolerate. But back then, it was a government that they considered oppressive.
    Some of the people wrote a Declaration of Independence that said that the creator gave people the right to make decisions for themselves. Their rights were not from any governmental authority.
    A war was fought and the oppressed nations won.
    The previously oppressed nations formed a confederation for mutual benefit and protection with extreme limits on what politicians could do to the nation states and to the people.
    Politicians hungry for power were not satisfied so the second attempt created the Constitution that defined the previous confederation as the United States of America. Yes, the fall of the U.S.A. started before it started.
    The Constitution for the creation of the United States of America was soundly defeated by a margin of twelve to one. There were not enough limits placed on the politicians. To push the U.S. Constitution through, amendments were offered and the ones selected became the immutable Bill of Rights. It was the guarantees of the immutable Bill of Rights that kept the U.S. Constitution in force.
    Since then, politicians continued to try to take power from the nation states and from the people. Sometimes the nation states and people were successful in the tug-of-war but mostly, the politicians won. Some notable losses for the nation states and the people:
    The war of yankee aggression almost abolished nation states rights to the extent that I should drop the “nation” adjective.
    Federal Reserve took control of the money supply.
    The way that the Federal income tax is collected destroyed much freedom.
    Socialistic Security was a big step toward socialism.
    “Patriot” act and current NDAA directly override the immutable Bills of Rights which nullifies the U.S. Constitution.
    Judges electing one president and violating the first requirement of the former U.S. Constitution by allowing a “president” that did not have both parents U.S. Citizens at birth and the same one that renounced all various previous citizenship to become an Indonesian and let that lapse. Without any country, he can’t be accused of being a traitor to it.
    Entire purpose of the TSA is to violate the fourth amendment. Other alphabet agencies also routine harm people and ignore their rights.
    Osamacare took over one-sixth of the economy and gave the IRS direct access to our bank account information and our medical records.

  42. #42 Lawrence
    May 6, 2014

    Okay, that can’t be a real person. It has to be a bot that steals fragments from various conspiracy websites and posts them together…..

  43. #43 somitcw
    May 6, 2014

    A link in one of my previous posts 3154 describes the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger better that I can. Perhaps mr.z is a professional?
    http://banoosh.com/blog/2013/12/11/ohio-ends-stand-off-over-amish-girl-forced-chemo-case/
    A quote from the article:
    “The Hershberger family had been through a medical nightmare this Summer and Fall that began when Andy and Anna’s 10-year-old daughter Sarah received chemo for leukemia, unwittingly a part of a secret research experiment. After the experimental chemo made her too ill to function, the parents opted for natural protocols with the support of two court rulings.”.

  44. #44 AdamG
    May 6, 2014

    Let’s get back to the point, somitcw. do you have evidence to support your assertion that

    Everything from scrapping cow plus into people’s skin, to injecting them with monkey cells, to injecting them with SV40 has caused much higher cancer rates now

  45. #45 somitcw
    May 6, 2014

    #243 Lawrence posted, “Okay, that can’t be a real person. It has to be a bot that steals fragments from various conspiracy websites and posts them together…..”.
    .
    What conspiracy? Sarah Hershberger really does exist.
    She was really injected with unproven experimental chemicals in place of chemo.
    Her parents really did get court approval to try traditional medicine. Twice.
    The allopaths really did finally convince a third court that traditional cures are bad and that allopathic bank accounts are good.
    Sarah and her family really did escape.
    Where do you see a conspiracy?

  46. #46 AdamG
    May 6, 2014

    She was really injected with unproven experimental chemicals in place of chemo.

    Um, no. Did you even read the article you’re commenting on?

    She underwent one full course of chemotherapy (out of five courses planned over more than two years), which is the standard of care for the particular variety of leukemia she has. Unfortunately, her family stopped her chemotherapy early in her second course, after the induction phase had been completed, but only a dose or two into her consolidation phase.

  47. #47 somitcw
    May 6, 2014

    #245 AdamG, posted, “Let’s get back to the point, somitcw. do you have evidence to support your assertion that
    Everything from scrapping cow plus into people’s skin, to injecting them with monkey cells, to injecting them with SV40 has caused much higher cancer rates now”.
    .
    The point would be about the crimes that were committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family, but:
    .
    Me have evidence? I do not do medical research but for over two hundred years, people have been complaining about the smallpox vaccine. Even the Holy Bible mentions that mixing animals with humans is not a good thing.
    .
    If you want to see that cancer rates now are higher than historical numbers, just check any cancer related allopathic web site. It’s not secret.
    .
    AdamG, do you have proof that injecting dangerous chemicals and foreign DNA into children is a good thing. That include non-therapeutic vaccines grown in monkey tissue, non-therapeutic vaccines grown in aborted human fetus tissue, and the newest rumor is that adding insect DNA to the non-therapeutic flu shot may happen.

  48. #48 Narad
    May 6, 2014

    “The Hershberger family had been through a medical nightmare this Summer and Fall that began when Andy and Anna’s 10-year-old daughter Sarah received chemo for leukemia, unwittingly a part of a secret research experiment….”

    And, unsurprisingly, this is a overflowing crock of sіt, as is this:

    injecting them with monkey cells

    Quick: What’s the size of a Vero cell? What level of filtration is applied to the relevant vaccines?

  49. #49 Narad
    May 6, 2014

    ^ “crock of shіt”

    (I’m wondering whether that Unicode does something I wasn’t expecting.)

  50. #50 somitcw
    May 6, 2014

    Oops, I misspoke about the insect rumor. It’s not a rumor.
    The FDA already approved growing the flu shot in insect tissue and adding insect virus to the flu shot.
    I was wrong. It’s past the rumor stage now.
    Before someone screams that I didn’t post proof without saying what they want proof for:
    http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2013/01/fda-approves-first-flu-vaccine-grown-insect-cells

  51. #51 somitcw
    May 6, 2014

    #249 Narad continues blowing smoke that I try to ignore but,
    Narad, the filters did not remove viruses like SV40, inactivated polio, attenuated polio, attenuated measles, attenuated mumps, attenuated chickenpox, or other viruses so why do you expect the the filter to stop animal DNA. Someone did explain to you that some chunks of animal DNA can be smaller than viruses, didn’t they?
    Injected non-therapeutic synthetic vitamin k injections contains some chemicals that are even smaller than DNA and should not be injected into a human.

  52. #52 AdamG
    May 6, 2014

    What are the risks of being exposed to animal DNA, somitcw?

  53. #53 Narad
    May 6, 2014

    the newest rumor is that adding insect DNA to the non-therapeutic flu shot may happen

    Good G-d, you’re stupid. Flublok was approved over a year ago. Nobody’s “adding” anything, Epsilon-Minus. Here.

  54. #54 Narad
    May 6, 2014

    Narad, the filters did not remove viruses like SV40, inactivated polio, attenuated polio, attenuated measles, attenuated mumps, attenuated chickenpox, or other viruses so why do you expect the the filter to stop animal DNA.

    You said “monkey cells,” shіthead. Do you simply forget the gibberish that you’ve typed the moment you hit “submit”?

  55. #55 Lawrence
    May 6, 2014

    @Narad – this is one grade A crazy, that’s for sure….probably doesn’t realize that he consumes animal DNA every single day….

  56. #56 Johanna
    May 6, 2014

    probably doesn’t realize that he consumes animal DNA every single day….

    Oh. but that’s different. Animal DNA in vaccines gets injected into your bloodstream donchaknow?

    *ducks and runs*

  57. #57 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 6, 2014

    Hey, idiot: are you ever going to acknowledge that you don’t know what the word “allopathic” is supposed to mean, and stop using it?

  58. #58 somitcw
    May 6, 2014

    #253 AdamG posted, “What are the risks of being exposed to animal DNA, somitcw?”.
    .
    I’m don’t plan to let anyone inject anything into my veins that contains animal DNA unless it is therapeutic. If therapeutic, I will then weigh benefits compared harm. When dying of a snake bite, the benefits go way up.
    .
    Ground up and altered foreign DNA has animal retro viruses and can include other diseases from other species. Examples include SV40, the non-therapeutic feline leukemia vaccine that caused parvovirus in many animals and a few humans, reaction from therapeutic rabies vaccine, 47,500 reported non(wild)polio polio cases in just 2011 in just India from the non-therapeutic attenuated polio virus OPV polio vaccine, and injecting people with dangerous chemicals and DNA fragments might help account for cancer and other disease rates increases?
    One in six children entering school here now have a reported physical or mental issue. I can assure you that it wasn’t like that sixty years ago.
    .
    Why is it PC to talk about vaccine-induced disease, VID, in animals, but not talk about all of the children being damaged?

  59. #59 Helianthus
    May 6, 2014

    The FDA already approved growing the flu shot in insect tissue and adding insect virus to the flu shot.

    Unless you underwent a metamorphosis and became a dung beetle (not a far-fetched hypothesis judging from your posts), I doubt you have much to worry about insect viruses.

  60. #60 Todd W.
    http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com
    May 6, 2014

    @somitcw

    Shorter somitcw “blah, blah, speculation, blah, no citations, blah WHHHAARRRGGGGRRRBBLL!!!eleventyone!!1!”

  61. #61 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 6, 2014

    Socialistic Security was a big step toward socialism.

    Unfortunately not a big enough step. One can either be a socialist or a sociopath, somitcw: which are you?

    Judges electing one president

    Yeah, that pretty much was the end of democracy in this country.

    and violating the first requirement of the former U.S. Constitution by allowing a “president” that did not have both parents U.S. Citizens at birth

    Where do you idiots get this “both parents” bullshıt? It’s sure as hell not printed in any constitution I’ve ever seen. Only one of your parents has to be a citizen for you to be a “natural-born” citizen. Since President Obama was born in the U.S., actually neither of his parents needed to be citizens for him to be a “natural-born citizen”. How do I know you’d give Bobby Jindal a pass when neither of his parents were citizens when he was born.

    and the same one that renounced all various previous citizenship to become an Indonesian and let that lapse. Without any country, he can’t be accused of being a traitor to it.

    You can’t renounce U.S. citizenship without going to a U.S. embassy and filing a paper to that effect. Nobody has suggested that President Obama did any such thing, so his “natural-born” citizenship was, and is, in effect.

    You really are out of your freakin’ mind, you know.

  62. #62 AdamG
    May 6, 2014

    Ground up and altered foreign DNA has animal retro viruses and can include other diseases from other species. Examples include SV40,

    Once again, for the 5th time now, do you have any proof that SV40 causes disease?

  63. #63 Ren
    May 6, 2014

    “and violating the first requirement of the former U.S. Constitution by allowing a “president” that did not have both parents U.S. Citizens at birth”

    So Ted Cruz, the darling of the Tea Party, is out. Not only was his father Cuban, Ted Cruz was born in Canada… And he wasn’t born in a US territory within Canada, like John McCain was in Panama.

    Oh, the goalposts… How they shift.

  64. #64 Narad
    May 6, 2014

    I assume that it is a fairytale about some child that weeks, months, or years after birth had some bleeding issue ignoring that vitamin K depletes in about two days.

    Wrong again, Captain Fail.

  65. #65 Helianthus
    May 6, 2014

    I misspoke. A dung beetle is much more selective in the sh!t it’s carrying around.

    Ground up and altered foreign DNA has animal retro viruses

    Not true.
    It could have viral DNA, retro or otherwise. But without the dedicated machinery to excise this DNA (machinery only found inside cells), and wrap it in the appropriate form inside a virus capside, this viral DNA is about as much a threat as a discarded kleenex tissue.
    In short: it’s garbage.
    Every day, you have plenty of of your own cells (including a few thousands neurons) who die and disgorge their content, broken chains of DNA included. Do you thing your body is unable to manage a bit more of garbage?

    from the non-therapeutic attenuated polio virus OPV polio vaccine

    Vaccines are usually non-therapeutic. If you got the disease, it’s a bit too late to give your immune system some target practice in the form of attenuated or dead viruses.
    The fact that vaccines are a nice form of preventative medicine seems to go over your head.

    One in six children entering school here now have a reported physical or mental issue. I can assure you that it wasn’t like that sixty years ago.

    Yeah. The operative part is “entering school”. Sixty years ago, it was “when one has children like this, one hides them”.

  66. #66 somitcw
    May 6, 2014

    #256 Lawrence posted, “@Narad – this is one grade A crazy, that’s for sure….probably doesn’t realize that he consumes animal DNA every single day….”.
    .
    I’ll be happy to give up my lunch for you to inject it into your bloodstream.
    I’ll include chicken egg parts and peanut parts so you can become allergic to eggs and peanuts. Call it the non-therapeutic somitcw vaccine.

  67. #67 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 6, 2014

    Ren @ 264:

    And he wasn’t born in a US territory within Canada, like John McCain was in Panama.

    Actually, the McCain thing is kind of amusing. At first, apparently he or his staff believed the urban legend that you had to be born in the U.S. or a territory to be president. Therefore, the first bio he gave out had him being born in a hospital inside the Canal Zone. When it was pointed out that hospital didn’t exist at the time, somebody looked up the actual requirements and realized that his parents were citizens, making him natural-born, so they issued a new bio with the presumably correct birthplace in Colón—outside the Canal Zone.

  68. #68 somitcw
    May 6, 2014

    #262 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge posted among other things:
    “Where do you idiots get this “both parents” bullshıt? It’s sure as hell not printed in any constitution I’ve ever seen.”.
    .
    From the Constitution of the former U.S.A.:
    “No person except a natural born” … “shall be eligible to the office of President;”.
    John Jay and George Washington added it because they wanted to insure full U.S. Constitution alligance from birth for anyone that was to protect, preserve, and defend the Constitution for the U.S.A. and how right they were.
    Note, it is important enough to be listed first.
    The definition at that time was from the “Law of Nations” when the definition included for an obsolete requirement of a geographical location.. “Law of Nation” says:
    “natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens”.
    The U.S. 1790 Immigration Act dropped the geographical location requirement part of the legal definition.
    And, no I will not give you a link to the Constitution of the former U.S.A. or other publicly available documents.
    Soetoro/Bounel/Obama is not a natural. If the U.S.A. still existed, he would be Constitutionally ineligible to be the U.S. President or to be impeached from the office. With no U.S.A., he still can’t be the U.S. President or impeached from it.

  69. #69 herr doktor bimler
    May 6, 2014

    Unless you underwent a metamorphosis and became a dung beetle (not a far-fetched hypothesis judging from your posts), I doubt you have much to worry about insect viruses.

    I grew wings after a mosquito bite injected its DNA into my veins! True fact!

  70. #70 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 6, 2014

    Obama was born in the United States. One of his parents was a U.S. citizen. Either one of these facts would make him a natural-born citizen. You haven’t got the slightest fuçking idea what you’re talking about.

    I guess that’s to be expected from some idiot who keeps using the word “allopathic” with no idea what it’s supposed to mean.

  71. #71 Lawrence
    May 6, 2014

    Guys, it is obvious that this guy is certifiable & probably very good friends with old John Best (given his arguments up to this point)….

  72. #72 Narad
    May 6, 2014

    I’m don’t plan to let anyone inject anything into my veins that contains animal DNA

    Gee, I guess it’s a good fυcking thing that vaccines aren’t injected into your veins, now isn’t it?

    unless it is therapeutic. If therapeutic, I will then weigh benefits compared harm.

    You’re not able to do this, for two reasons: (1) You’re completely fυcking brain dead. (2) There is no harm that you’ve been able to enunciate. This probably has something to do with, I dunno, the fact that THERE ISN’T ANY PLAUSIBLE BASIS FOR ANY.

    What do you think random DNA fragments are going to do? Do you even know what DNA does? Do you know where it does it? How the fυck do you get little naked bits of it to pull this fυcking stunt off, jackass?

  73. #73 somitcw
    May 6, 2014

    #263 AdamG posted, “Ground up and altered foreign DNA has animal retro viruses and can include other diseases from other species. Examples include SV40,
    Once again, for the 5th time now, do you have any proof that SV40 causes disease?”.
    .
    Can you, not me, but you prove that it does or doesn’t? Didn’t think so.
    .
    Correlation is not prove causation but some history:
    After early non-therapeutic polio testing against children, several new or rare cancers and pre-leukemia started showing up.
    In 1955-1956, the non-therapeutic vaccines were tested on rodents and the rodents got cancers. Since it took a long time for the cancers to develop, it was thought that no one would tie the non-therapeutic vaccine to cancer.
    In 1963, the fortieth monkey virus, SV40, was identified in the polio vaccines.
    The polio lots were tested but the test was cut too short to detect all SV40. Only the fast-acting SV40 was detected. Lots known to have SV40 were pulled.
    In 1997, people were still getting SV40 cancers that were vaccinated after 1963 so there was possibly incorrect speculation that SV40 could spread person to person. A new study allowed the SV40 test to run long enough to detect slow acting SV40. No one is saying if SV40 can or cannot spread outside of vaccines.
    The U.S.A. immediately switch to the non-therapeutic inactivated polio virus IPV polio vaccine in the hopes that SV40 was not in it and also because the non-therapeutic attenuated polio virus OPV polio vaccine caused disease and a few deaths every year.
    .
    Since the SV40 crimes were before Sarah Hershberger was born, why is this type of question, and my answer, in a discussion about the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family?

  74. #74 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 6, 2014

    Wow, he’s even made Narad hot under the collar. Has that ever happened before? This specimen does seem to be supremely annoying.

  75. #75 AdamG
    May 6, 2014

    Can you, not me, but you prove that it does or doesn’t? Didn’t think so.

    Sure I can. In fact, Krebiozen already did just this in comment #224, which you clearly didn’t bother to read.

    Here’s some proof to get you started:
    http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/95/7/532.abstract

    I’ve shown you mine, now you show us yours: present the evidence that personally convinced you that SV40 causes cancer.

  76. #76 somitcw
    May 6, 2014

    #271 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge, please see #269 somitcw.
    The four times that the U.S. Supreme court used the term “natural born”, they used the real definition, not your dream.
    How can our schooling be so poor that people think that the legal definitions for different words and phrases all mean the same thing?
    “natural born citizen” = “citizen” = “born citizen”=”mother not old enough to confer citizenship” = “naturalized” = “repatriated” = “born an CUKC” = “later became a Kenyan” “later adopted and schooled as an Indonesian” = dozens of other things.

  77. #77 somitcw
    May 6, 2014

    #275 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge posted, “Wow, he’s even made Narad hot under the collar. Has that ever happened before? This specimen does seem to be supremely annoying.”.
    .
    Perhaps learning the truth really can be painful?

  78. #78 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 6, 2014

    None of your crap about citizenship is true. You are quite simply out of your mind. Bobby Jindal was born in the U.S. and that makes him a natural born citizen, even though neither of his parents were even naturalized citizens when he was born. Idiot that he is, he’s perfectly eligible to be president (gawdelpus!)

    Since Obama was born here, and one of his parents was a natural-born citizen (born of natural-born citizen parents), how in the hell is he less eligible than Bobby Jindal?

    Define “allopathic”.

  79. #79 Lawrence
    May 6, 2014

    Which is why it is possible for a foreign national to give birth to a child on US soil, hereby making that Child a US citizen by birth (regardless of the status of his parents) and a natural-borne citizen at that.

  80. #80 somitcw
    May 6, 2014

    #276, AdamG posted, “Can you, not me, but you prove that it does or doesn’t? Didn’t think so.
    Sure I can. In fact, Krebiozen already did just this in comment #224, which you clearly didn’t bother to read.
    Here’s some proof to get you started:
    http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/95/7/532.abstract
    I’ve shown you mine, now you show us yours: present the evidence that personally convinced you that SV40 causes cancer.”.
    .
    You cited a study that had no participants vaccinated before the polio vaccine had SV40, 1952 vaccine first created, and no participants vaccinated after the SV40 was finally removed from the U.S.A. polio vaccines in 1997.
    I assume that the 1969 peak was the last breath of the fast acting SV40 that was supposedly removed in 1963.

  81. #81 AdamG
    May 6, 2014

    You cited a study that had no participants vaccinated before the polio vaccine had SV40

    Ok, here’s one that did:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=15286015

    Now it’s your turn to present the evidence that personally convinced you that SV40 causes cancer.

  82. #82 somitcw
    May 6, 2014

    #280 Lawrence posted, “Which is why it is possible for a foreign national to give birth to a child on US soil, hereby making that Child a US citizen by birth (regardless of the status of his parents) and a natural-borne citizen at that.”.
    .
    What does this have to do with the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family. The former U.S.A. fell before Sarah was born.
    .
    A citizen is not the same as a born citizen is not the same as a natural born citizen. They are different. Please read either the law or history and try to ignore your believing that you can change legal definitions using your dreams.
    .
    U.S. “president” Arthur at least had the sense to hide that his father did not become a U.S. citizen until after Arthur was born. He even had his papers burned. Perhaps the schools were better in “president” Arthur’s time?

  83. #83 Narad
    May 6, 2014

    The U.S.A. immediately switch to the non-therapeutic inactivated polio virus IPV polio vaccine in the hopes that SV40 was not in it

    “In the hopes”? Jesus Christ. Anyway, no, you’re wrong again, CJD. The U.S. continued using OPV in the schedule until 2000. The switchover was because that’s what you fυcking do when VAPP is a greater risk than wild disease, not because of your shіtwitted cancer babbling, the nature of which has ALREADY BEEN POINTED OUT to you.

    Since the SV40 crimes were before Sarah Hershberger was born, why is this type of question, and my answer, in a discussion about the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family?

    Because you brought it up, slapdіck. Now start answering some g-ddamned questions rather than flailing around in circles like you’ve been brained with a fυcking two-by-four.

  84. #84 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 6, 2014

    U.S. “president” Arthur at least had the sense to hide that his father did not become a U.S. citizen until after Arthur was born. He even had his papers burned. Perhaps the schools were better in “president” Arthur’s time?

    Does. Not. Fu¢king. Matter. He was born here, that’s all that matters. Phil Sheridan (of “The only good Indian is a dead Indian” fame) had every intention of being president one day, so he lied about being born in the United States (even though he was born on the boat on the way over from Ireland). He knew that made him eligible for the presidency—why don’t you?

    Define “allopathic”.

  85. #85 somitcw
    May 6, 2014

    #279 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge posted, “None of your crap about citizenship is true. You are quite simply out of your mind. Bobby Jindal was born in the U.S. and that makes him a natural born citizen, even though neither of his parents were even naturalized citizens when he was born. Idiot that he is, he’s perfectly eligible to be president (gawdelpus!)
    Since Obama was born here, and one of his parents was a natural-born citizen (born of natural-born citizen parents), how in the hell is he less eligible than Bobby Jindal?
    Define “allopathic”.”.

    Is your Bobby Jindal a born citizen or a natural born citizen.
    Note that one phrase as a different number of words and letters in it than the other one has.
    Note, the Constitution of the former U.S.A. sets specific restrictions that were required to be met before someone could become a U.S. President. Everyone in the former U.S.A. did not need to meet the identical requirements.
    .
    If you want a definition of allopath, instead of blowing smoke here, go look it up.
    .
    Why does discussing crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family hurt so much that you need to go so far off topic to set up a smoke screen about Bobby Jindal?

  86. #86 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    May 6, 2014

    As the phrase “natural born citizen” is not defined in the Constitution, so the definition is subject to interpretation by the courts. According to the Congressional Research Service report titled “Qualifications for President and the ‘Natural Born’ Citizenship Eligibility Requirement” at http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42097.pdf,

    The weight of legal and historical authority indicates that the term “natural born” citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship “by birth” or “at birth,” either by being born “in” the United States and under its jurisdiction, even those born to alien parents; by being born abroad to U.S. citizen-parents; or by being born in other situations meeting legal requirements for U.S. citizenship “at birth.” Such term, however, would not include a person who was not a U.S. citizen by birth or at birth, and who was thus born an “alien” required to go through the legal process of “naturalization” to become a U.S. citizen.

    As Barack Obama was a citizen by birth (having been born on US soil to a parent who was a citizen), he qualifies under the law as a natural born citizen.

  87. #87 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    May 6, 2014

    Please enumerate the crimes committed against Sara Hershberger and her family. In particular, please cite the statutes broken. Thanks.

  88. #88 Johanna
    May 6, 2014

    As a naturalized citizen of the USA, I’ve got to ask somitcw to define, in his own words, the difference between these states of citizenship that he’s going on about.

    I certainly don’t remember them coming up in the paperwork or on the test…

  89. #89 somitcw
    May 6, 2014

    #282 AdamG posted, “You cited a study that had no participants vaccinated before the polio vaccine had SV40
    Ok, here’s one that did:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=15286015
    Now it’s your turn to present the evidence that personally convinced you that SV40 causes cancer.”.
    .
    So you found a “maternal seroconversion to simian virus 40” that agrees with me that “No one is saying if SV40 can or cannot spread outside of vaccines.”.
    .
    And other than you trying to blow smoke to cover-up the discussion of the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family, so what?

  90. #90 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    May 6, 2014

    Johanna – presumably anyone born by Cesarean section, and possibly several other medical techniques, would not be considered natural born.

  91. #91 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 6, 2014

    If you want a definition of allopath, instead of blowing smoke here, go look it up.

    No, YOU fu¢king look it up, you cretin!!!!!!

    I’m the one of us who knows what it means.

    You’re the one of us constantly using it, despite NOT knowing what it means!!!!!!!

    Buttmunch!

  92. #92 AdamG
    May 6, 2014

    What? the authors of that paper found that “children whose mothers had received pre-1963 poliovirus vaccine during pregnancy (22.5% of the children) had an increased incidence of neural tumors.”

    How does that possibly square with your idea that SV40 from polio vaccine causes cancer? Again, if you actually posted the citation that personally convinced you that SV40 causes cancer we might be able to have a reasonable discussion about this, instead of the dodges and goalpost-shifts you’ve regurgitated so far.

    As for “the discussion of the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family,” how can such a discussion take place when you’ve yet to list a single example of such a crime?

  93. #93 somitcw
    May 6, 2014

    #285 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge blew smoke among other things, “Does. Not. Fu¢king. Matter. He was born here, that’s all that matters.”.
    .
    Yes, you are correct. With the U.S. Constitution being nullified so the U.S.A. not existing anymore, the U.S. Constitution is not followed. It is now considered lower than toilet paper.
    .
    If we could restore the U.S.A., then the U.S. Constitution would matter again. Putin’s attempt to reunify the former U.S.S.R. has a better chance of succeeding than restoring the former U.S.A.
    .
    Do you understand that we have people like you screaming to ignore the rule of law, the Declaration of Independence, the immutable Bill of Rights, and the U.S. Presidential requirements in the former Constitution for the U.S.A.
    Is it just because of our poor schools or are people taking the complacency medication straight without mixing it into our water supply?
    .
    You don’t need to answer. I have to go, like now. Bye.

  94. #94 Narad
    May 6, 2014

    What does this have to do with the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family. The former U.S.A. fell before Sarah was born.

    Hey, who the fυck am I?

    Federal Reserve took control of the money supply.
    The way that the Federal income tax is collected destroyed much freedom.
    Socialistic Security was a big step toward socialism.
    “Patriot” act and current NDAA directly override the immutable Bills of Rights which nullifies the U.S. Constitution.
    Judges electing one president and violating the first requirement of the former U.S. Constitution by allowing a “president” that did not have both parents U.S. Citizens at birth and the same one that renounced all various previous citizenship to become an Indonesian and let that lapse. Without any country, he can’t be accused of being a traitor to it.
    Entire purpose of the TSA is to violate the fourth amendment. Other alphabet agencies also routine harm people and ignore their rights.
    Osamacare took over one-sixth of the economy and gave the IRS direct access to our bank account information and our medical records.

    Maybe if you could remember that was you who for no reason felt obliged to start this shіttrain rolling down the track just a few hours ago, you wouldn’t need to be sniveling now about its being off-topic, NOW WOULD YOU?

  95. #95 herr doktor bimler
    May 6, 2014

    presumably anyone born by Cesarean section, and possibly several other medical techniques, would not be considered natural born.

    Be bloody, bold, and resolute. Laugh to scorn
    The power of man, for none natural-born citizen of the US
    Shall harm Macbeth.

  96. #96 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    May 6, 2014

    herr doktor bimler – Indeed. You’ll notice there has never been a US president named Macduff for this very reason.

  97. #97 Narad
    May 6, 2014

    You don’t need to answer. I have to go, like now. Bye.

    May 2:

    “I need rest and other things so will be offline for awhile.”

    “I will really be offline for many hours. Bye.”

    “I have people to do and places to see. I am trying to go and will soon.”

    “I have other things that need my attention today.”

    “Good-bye for the day. I really mean it this time.”

    “I’m gone and have no intention to researching what you believe that I did not answer from some mob or other persons…. Good-night.”

    “Logging off. I may be back tomorrow, May not.”

    “I am really gone. After I click on Submit Comment, I will close Chrome within two seconds.”

  98. #98 Johanna
    May 6, 2014

    I’m a Campbell on my mother’s side. I always used to joke about looking for a connection between her and the extinct Campbells of Cawdow. Glams… and queen hereafter. Heh.

  99. #99 Johanna
    May 6, 2014

    Er, that would be “Cawdor”.

    My kingdom for a preview button! 😉

  100. #100 Chris,
    May 6, 2014

    somitcw: “One in six children entering school here now have a reported physical or mental issue. I can assure you that it wasn’t like that sixty years ago.”

    The “one in six” is the ratio that is one standard deviation either above or below the mean in a normal distribution. The one is six above are those with much higher than average intelligence. Those that are below have the lower than average intelligence.

    It is obvious that somitcw is at least two standard deviations below the mean for intelligence.

  101. #101 Lawrence
    May 6, 2014

    Guys – again, obvious that we are dealing with a complete loony here….though I’m sure you’re having fun kicking him around…again, this guy and John Best must have been separated at birth.

  102. #102 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    May 6, 2014

    Chris – were you aware that 50% of students are rated below the median? Shocking, yet true.

  103. #103 ann
    May 6, 2014

    Yes, you are correct. With the U.S. Constitution being nullified so the U.S.A. not existing anymore, the U.S. Constitution is not followed. It is now considered lower than toilet paper.

    Wow, are you a sucker.

    Is there anything you believe that ISN’T proto-fascist propaganda from the first half of the 20th century?

    Talk about fairy tales.

    “natural born citizen” = “citizen” = “born citizen”=”mother not old enough to confer citizenship” = “naturalized” = “repatriated” = “born an CUKC” = “later became a Kenyan” “later adopted and schooled as an Indonesian” = dozens of other things.

    Hater.

    But tell me. How old does the mother have to be to confer citizenship, in your loony reading of the matter?

  104. #104 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    May 6, 2014

    Lawrence – I haven’t had a chance to trade Shakespeare quips in years.

  105. #105 Lawrence
    May 6, 2014

    @ann – my assumption would be he thinks that the mother must be of “age” or over the age of 18….which is complete baloney.

    Again, this person has lost control of most, if not all of his / her faculties and is probably close to be being certifiably insane or at least have nothing but the most tenuous grasp on reality. I’ve seen street-corner prophets that knew more about reality than this person does.

  106. #106 Beana
    May 6, 2014

    I love this blog so much, but when the nut cases show up . . . pure bliss.

  107. #107 Krebiozen
    May 6, 2014

    somitcw,

    There is much more juvenile cancer than any supposed VKBD. Why risk killing thousands of children with juvenile cancer by using an absurd method to stop blood clotting issues?

    But neonatal vitamin K doesn’t cause cancer.

    If you want to see that cancer rates now are higher than historical numbers, just check any cancer related allopathic web site. It’s not secret.

    Not true, age-corrected cancer rates have been falling for the past 15 years. Why age-correct rates? Because cancer risk increases with age, and so of course we see more cancer when we have more elderly people than ever before. We have to correct for age to see what rates are really doing, which is going down.

    Examples include SV40, the non-therapeutic feline leukemia vaccine that caused parvovirus in many animals and a few humans,

    You didn’t look at the study I linked to that found lower rates of cancer in people exposed to SV40 in the polio vaccine then?

    reaction from therapeutic rabies vaccine,

    Personally I would prefer a vaccine reaction to rabies, but maybe that’s just me.

    47,500 reported non(wild)polio polio cases in just 2011 in just India from the non-therapeutic attenuated polio virus OPV polio vaccine,

    That’s a blatant lie. There were only a handful of cases of vaccine-associated polio in 2011, fewer than one case per million doses of vaccine. Non-polio AFP is not caused by the polio vaccine, it is caused by factors other than polio; other enteroviruses, injuries, snakebite etc.. It only appears to have increased since active surveillance started – is it really surprising they found more cases of acute flaccid paralysis when they started actively looking for them?

    and injecting people with dangerous chemicals and DNA fragments might help account for cancer and other disease rates increases?

    What “dangerous chemicals” are we injecting people with in a dose that could conceivably cause any harm? What evidence is there to even suggest a link between vaccines and “cancer and other disease rates”? We know that vaccines have saved countless lives, and prevented incalculable suffering. The various fears you express are for the most part disproven and the rest are extremely implausible. Thankfully most rational people recognize this, and support vaccination.

  108. #108 Militant Agnostic
    May 6, 2014

    @TVBORK

    Wow, he’s even made Narad hot under the collar. Has that ever happened before?

    You must have missed Delysid who ticked all the glibertarian boxes from AGW denialism to rape apologist. Narad roasted him on a spit.

  109. #109 Todd W.
    http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com
    May 6, 2014

    @Lawrence

    my assumption would be he thinks that the mother must be of “age” or over the age of 18….which is complete baloney.

    I dunno. Given its other archaic notions, it would probably thing any girl that’s reached puberty is “of age”. If they haven’t reached puberty, then no child that they bear would be a “natural born citizen”. Ignore the whole problems involved with how childbearing works. Perfectly consistent with its other inconsistent and self-contradictory statements.

    @Krebiozen

    Personally I would prefer a vaccine reaction to rabies, but maybe that’s just me.

    What? You mean you want a greater than 3 out of however many thousands chance of not dying from rabies?

  110. #110 Shay
    May 6, 2014

    somitwc is a birfer. Nothing anyone says is going to make it past the tinfoil hat/brain barrier.

  111. #111 Chris,
    May 6, 2014

    M O’B: “Chris – were you aware that 50% of students are rated below the median? Shocking, yet true.”

    And somitcw is in that special 2% who can barely type on a keyboard.

  112. #112 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 7, 2014

    Re: the “mother not old enough to confer citizenship” baloney, I think somitcw is totally misinterpreting (shocker, I know) the law about how long a naturalized citizen has to reside in the United States in order for her citizenship to be transferred to her child if it happens to be born outside the United States, I know, usually birthers are so knowledgeable, it’s a poser!

  113. #113 Helianthus
    May 7, 2014

    @ Ann

    Is there anything you believe that ISN’T proto-fascist propaganda from the first half of the 20th century?

    The more somitcw posts, the more it sounds like a perfect clone of General Ripper from the movie Dr Strangelove. Obsessed with the purity of his bodily fluids, has very strong beliefs on what is a true american…

    Re: “complacency medication”, mentioned above. Between my toothpaste, my mouthwash, and the water I was drinking in North America, I got plenty of fluoride. Let me ask my current and former bosses and colleagues how much a mellow, complacent fellow I am.
    *beat*
    Sorry, I could not get a straight answer, they all went into vociferous laughter.

  114. #114 Dangerous Bacon
    May 7, 2014

    “You must have missed Delysid who ticked all the glibertarian boxes from AGW denialism to rape apologist.”

    I prefer “gibbertarian”.

  115. #115 somitcw
    May 8, 2014

    #293 AdamG posted, “What? the authors of that paper found that “children whose mothers had received pre-1963 poliovirus vaccine during pregnancy (22.5% of the children) had an increased incidence of neural tumors.”
    How does that possibly square with your idea that SV40 from polio vaccine causes cancer? Again, if you actually posted the citation that personally convinced you that SV40 causes cancer we might be able to have a reasonable discussion about this, instead of the dodges and goalpost-shifts you’ve regurgitated so far.
    As for “the discussion of the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family,” how can such a discussion take place when you’ve yet to list a single example of such a crime?”.
    .
    You posting a connection of mothers supposedly passing SV40 to children may also show that SV40 causes cancer but that doesn’t prove that being injected directly with SV40 in non-therapeutic polio virus from 1952/3 until 1997 also causes cancer.
    Better evidence would be the 1955-1956 tests showing that the non-therapeutic polio vaccines caused tumors in the rodents or videos from the creators and distributors of the non-therapeutic polio vaccine that state that polio vaccine. Apparently there are issues with people being able to look up anything on the Internet so here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFY5dRD4aWA
    There are dozens of other web pages that believe the many factually reports that show SV40 caused cancer. That was one of the reasons that the U.S. stopped the non-therapeutic attenuated polio virus OPV polio vaccine. It wasn’t only stopped becausing of the children getting polio from it every year. Just an example of one SV40 cancer:
    a. Someone has an irritant like smoke, asbestos, etc.
    b. Area is inflamed.
    c. SV40 causes tumors, in this example, mesothelioma.
    d. Victim normally dies of allopathic treatment but possibly from the tumors themselves. It can happen.
    e. If the tumors are caused by SV40 and someone is looking for the cause, then SV40 is found in the tumors. If someone’s job depends on not finding SV40, then the SV40 has the ability to hide.
    .
    Why do you need me to list any of the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger again?
    a. Allopaths enrolled Sarah Hershberger in a nonproven experimental study without her parents or her knowledge or permission.
    b. Allopaths used unproven experimental chemicals on Sarah Hershberger without her parents or her knowledge or permission. The unproven chemicals have never cured cancer in any human in the history of mankind.
    c. Allopaths did their job. That is they tried to maximize monetary benefit for themselves and for the allopathic hospital and knowing that there would be no return business, their job would need to negate having any human concern for their customers. Allopaths also did their job with their obligation to force Sarah Hershberger to stay enrolled in the secret unproven experimental chemical study.
    d. Allopaths fought the Hershbergers with Child “Protective” “Services” and the courts.
    The first judge sided with the Hershbergers. I don’t know if he was just following the law or that he understood that traditional medicine that has been used for thousands of years is safer and more effective than torturing a ten, eleven, twelve, and then thirteen year old child with unproven chemicals.
    Over two years of harsh unproven treatments does not sound like fun.
    e. After CPS and the allopaths losing, CPS and the allopaths fought the Hershbergers in court a second time.
    f. After CPS and the allopaths losing again, allopaths fought the Hershbergers in court a third time and finally got a crooked judge that ignored both the law and the health of Sarah.
    g. Control of medical decisions was taken from the Hershbergers which proves that we have no rights.
    There is not much reliable information about crimes that involved medical records, but they could be true also.

  116. #116 somitcw
    May 8, 2014

    #304 ann posted among other trash: “Hater. But tell me. How old does the mother have to be to confer citizenship, in your loony reading of the matter?”.
    .
    The law at the time when the eighteen year old gave birth to the person that we currently know as soetoro/bounel/obama that applies if the birther scam that soetoro/bounel/obama is running is wrong about where his was born:
    “When one parent was a U.S. citizen and the other a foreign national, the U.S. citizen parent must have resided in the U.S. for a total of 10 years prior to birth of the child with five of the years after the age of 14.”.
    .
    Do the math.
    .
    The U.K. did not have that problem so he was a CUKC until Kenya split from Great Britain and the CUKC converted to Kenyan. If born in the U.S.A. or Canada, then he would have been a dual-citizen, as in not full U.S. allegiance to the U.S. Constitution so not born a natural. All was before the Indonesian adoption or allowing his Indonesian citizenship to lapse.

  117. #117 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 8, 2014

    I’m not going to deal with your florid insanity, buttmunch. If President Obama’s mother had been a naturalized citizen, and he had been born outside the United States, that might apply. Since neither one of those is true, it doesn’t.

    I’m just going to point and laugh at you for continuing to use the word “allopathic” without the first fu¢king idea of what it’s supposed to mean. Admittedly, it’s not a standard English word and is used only by Homeopaths, but I know what it means—why don’t you?

    And if you’re going to quote somebody, why the hell can’t you use blockquote, you ignoramus?

    <blockquote>Quoted text here</blockquote>

  118. #118 herr doktor bimler
    May 8, 2014

    I prefer “gibbertarian”.

    Dibs on the word ‘lobotarian’.

  119. #119 somitcw
    May 8, 2014

    #287 Mephistopheles O’Brien posted a link to a fifty page document trying to confuse the issue of soetoro/bounel/obama eligibility for the Office of President for the former U.S.A. The document of course provided no proof, just attempts to justify ignoring the former Constitution for the former U.S.A.
    The facts override the failed attempt at confusion.
    1. The “natural born” requirement was like much of the Constitution that defined the U.S.A. was taken directly from the “Law of Nations” which defines a “natural born” as someone that was born when both parents were citizens and was born on the native soil.
    The first U.S. Congress session that had many delegates that helped write the Constitution to define the former U.S.A. changed the definition of “natural born” to drop the geographical location requirement with the 1790 immigration act. There have been no more changes.
    One of the links that discredit Jack Maskell for helping soetoro/bounel/obama against the rule of law and the former Constition that defined the former U.S.A.:
    http://bobmccarty.com/2010/11/25/understanding-the-jack-maskell-memorandum/
    P.S. Sorry I missed you earlier. Perhaps the smoke that many people are blowing, got into my eyes.

  120. #120 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 8, 2014

    All this “blowing smoke” as a universal placeholder is giving me “chasing a squirrel up a tree” flashbacks.

  121. #121 Narad
    May 8, 2014

    After CPS and the allopaths losing again, allopaths fought the Hershbergers in court a third time and finally got a crooked judge that ignored both the law and the health of Sarah.

    Jesus Christ, you don’t even understand the case. There were two appeals, and a total of four separate justices told Lohn (who was retired and filling in) that his decisions were incompetent, kanshiketsu.

  122. #122 Narad
    May 8, 2014

    Control of medical decisions was taken from the Hershbergers which proves that we have no rights.

    I see that you still haven’t read Prince v. Massachusetts. Let’s skip over the Schaibles and have you answer a straightforward question:

    If parents believe that disease is a manifestation of “willfulness” and decide that the “treatment” is beatings until the child is either “cured” or dead, would the state stipping in “prove that we have no rights”?

    Very simple, just like you. Get cracking.

  123. #123 Narad
    May 8, 2014

    ^ “stepping in”

  124. #124 Narad
    May 8, 2014

    Allopaths used unproven experimental chemicals on Sarah Hershberger without her parents or her knowledge or permission.

    False.

    Allopaths fought the Hershbergers with Child “Protective” “Services”

    False.

  125. #125 Narad
    May 8, 2014

    There are dozens of other web pages that believe the many factually reports [sic] that show SV40 caused cancer. That was one of the reasons that the U.S. stopped the non-therapeutic attenuated polio virus OPV polio vaccine.That was one of the reasons that the U.S. stopped the non-therapeutic attenuated polio virus OPV polio vaccine.

    False.

    Just an example of one SV40 cancer:
    a. Someone has an irritant like smoke, asbestos, etc.
    b. Area is inflamed.
    c. SV40 causes tumors, in this example, mesothelioma.

    Not even wrong.

  126. #126 Calli Arcale
    http://fractalwonder.wordpress.com
    May 8, 2014

    Did somitcw actually just exonerate asbestos as a cause of mesothelioma? That it’s really the SV40? He should probably tell that to all the trial lawyers advertising on TV, then.

  127. #127 Narad
    May 8, 2014

    It turns out that Maurice’s motion for reconsideration by the Ohio supreme court failed on April 25. And his mail is being returned or something.

  128. #128 Narad
    May 8, 2014

    allopaths fought the Hershbergers in court a third time and finally got a crooked judge that ignored both the law and the health of Sarah

    BTW, we’ve been through this rigamarole already with “Broccoli.”

  129. #129 somitcw
    May 8, 2014

    #323 Narad posted among other things, “I see that you still haven’t read Prince v. Massachusetts.”.
    .
    While it is sad that five of nine judges passed a lower law that can prevent parents from teaching their children how to work with parents using such a dangerous job as passing out literature, what does that have to do with the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family. Both prove that we lost our rights but the courts were also allowing internment of citizens of Japanese, German, and Italian descent at the same time.
    A list of hundreds of other crimes that were or are being committed does not justify any of the ones committed against the Hershbergers.
    Parents like the Hershbergers doing all they can to help their daughter have a greater concern for her than the concern that money hungry allopaths using unproven experimental chemical against customer Sarah Hershberger have.
    If I go to a TV store to purchase a TV for a child but the sales droid insists that I buy the TV that has 3-D glasses that could harm the child’s eyes but that he and the store make the most profit on, I should be free to refuse to buy product and take my business elsewhere without the Child “Protective” “Services” or some court’s permission.
    Same with the allopaths. The allopaths were harming Sarah Hershberger. She has a good chance of being sterile now. The parents properly chose to seek safer and more effective treatment.
    My rule: Parents practically own their children when helping them. Parents are required to nurture them and to teach them discipline, honesty, and integrity. Parents are not allowed to try to harm their children. Harm can include selling them into slavery, amputating healthy body parts, non-therapeutic allopathic treatments, harmful allopathic therapeutic treatments like allopaths secretly signing Sarah Hershberger up for an unproven experimental chemical study.

  130. #130 Chris,
    May 8, 2014

    Boring troll is boring.

  131. #131 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 8, 2014

    SOMITCW!!!! WHY. Do. You. Keep. Using. This. Word. “Allopath”. When. You. Have. NO!!!! IDEA!!!! What. It. Means?

  132. #132 Narad
    May 8, 2014

    While it is sad that five of nine judges passed a lower law that can prevent parents from teaching their children how to work with parents using such a dangerous job as passing out literature, what does that have to do with the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family.

    It has to do with concept of parens patriae, fυckstick, which shіts all over your slobbering “we have no rights” “timeline.”

    My rule: Parents practically own their children when helping them…. Parents are not allowed to try to harm their children.

    You apparently fail to understand what you’re trying to reply to. If parent believe that beatings cure disease, they’re trying to help. Substitute starvation if you wish, which is fully in line with the “health” practices of “Natural Hygiene.”

    Harm can include… allopaths secretly signing Sarah Hershberger up for an unproven experimental chemical study.

    Which didn’t fυcking happen, no matter how many how many times you fish it up.

  133. #133 Chris
    May 8, 2014

    “no matter how many how many times you fish it up.”

    Exactly why he is a boring troll, since he is just repeating the same nonsense.

  134. #134 Narad
    May 8, 2014

    By the way, here’s the list of relevant trials with Akron as a location. Where are the “unproven experimental chemicals,” skidmark?

  135. #135 herr doktor bimler
    May 8, 2014

    the courts were also allowing internment of citizens of Japanese, German, and Italian descent at the same time

    OK, I suppose Italian citizens are indeed of Italian descent.

  136. #136 NumberWang
    May 8, 2014

    Am I to understand from #241 that as well as poor, ill informed black people, most Jewish people also have there willies cut off? Because I’m starting to think America isn’t the safest place for a bloke to visit.

  137. #137 Lawrence
    May 8, 2014

    @Number – beware the roving games of circumcizers…..

  138. #138 Narad
    May 8, 2014

    One might suspect that characterizing circumcision as losing “most of [one’s] genitals” reveals a bit more than somitcw intended to.

  139. #139 herr doktor bimler
    May 8, 2014

    the roving games of circumcizers

    Is that anything like Parkour?

    Practitioners aim to get from A to B in the most efficient way possible.

    Both involve taking short cuts.

  140. #140 somitcw
    May 8, 2014

    #336 herr doktor bimler posted, “the courts were also allowing internment of citizens of Japanese, German, and Italian descent at the same time
    OK, I suppose Italian citizens are indeed of Italian descent.”.
    .
    Many current Italian citizens are indeed of Italian descent, but not all.
    As you already knew, the internment included U.S. citizens of Japanese, German, and Italian descent.

  141. #141 somitcw
    May 8, 2014

    I broke it into three posts because posting was failing.
    #333 Narad posting third part, “Harm can include… allopaths secretly signing Sarah Hershberger up for an unproven experimental chemical study.
    Which didn’t fυcking happen, no matter how many how many times you fish it up.”.
    .
    What crimes against Sarah Hershberger are you talking about? Did anyone explain to you that main stream media is required to bend everything in the government control and the allpathic control directions? You should look for more reputable sites.
    I will post another site:
    .
    http://dprogram.net/2013/11/02/recovered-amish-girl-will-physically-fight-if-forced-back-on-chemo/
    “Recovered Amish Girl will “Physically Fight” if Forced Back on Chemo”
    “…secretly enrolled in a medical research experiment and were testing new drugs on her. Losing her from the experiment meant a significant loss in funding to the tune of $1,000,000 if Sarah is not treated the full 110 weeks.”
    .
    Searching on:
    Sarah Hershberger experiment
    Will find many web sites like the one I posted in #154.
    .
    It was only about the allopaths wanting the almighty U.S. dollar and committing any crime against customers needed to get the almighty U.S. dollar.
    Too bad they didn’t know that the Congress of the former U.S.A. set 2014-07-01 as the start of the dollar’s fall. Not like what has been happening with Fed thievery for a hundred years, but something bigger.

  142. #142 somitcw
    May 8, 2014

    I broke it into three posts because posting was failing.
    #333 Narad posting second part, “My rule: Parents practically own their children when helping them…. Parents are not allowed to try to harm their children.
    You apparently fail to understand what you’re trying to reply to. If parent believe that beatings cure disease, they’re trying to help. Substitute starvation if you wish, which is fully in line with the “health” practices of “Natural Hygiene.””.
    .
    The only child abuse involved was from the allopaths and the courts.

  143. #143 Narad
    May 8, 2014

    While it is sad that five of nine judges passed a lower law

    Whatever the fυck the giant teratoma attached to your neckstalk “thinks” that means.

    that can prevent parents from teaching their children how to work with parents using such a dangerous job as passing out literature

    It didn’t have a fυcking thing to do with “teaching children how to work with parents”:

    “Mrs. Prince, living in Brockton, is the mother of two young sons. She also has legal custody of Betty Simmons, who lives with them. The children, too, are Jehovah’s Witnesses, and both Mrs. Prince and Betty testified they were ordained ministers. The former was accustomed to go each week on the streets of Brockton to distribute ‘Watchtower’ and ‘Consolation,’ according to the usual plan. She had permitted the children to engage in this activity previously, and had been warned against doing so by the school attendance officer, Mr. Perkins. But, until December 18, 1941, she generally did not take them with her at night.

    “That evening, as Mrs. Prince was preparing to leave her home, the children asked to go. She at first refused. Child-like, they resorted to tears; and, mother-like, she yielded. Arriving downtown, Mrs. Prince permitted the children ‘to engage in the preaching work with her upon the sidewalks.’ That is, with specific reference to Betty, she and Mrs. Prince took positions about twenty feet apart near a street intersection. Betty held up in her hand, for passers-by to see, copies of ‘Watch Tower’ and ‘Consolation.’ From her shoulder hung the usual canvas magazine bag, on which was printed: ‘Watchtower and Consolation 5¢ per copy.’ No one accepted a copy from Betty that evening, and she received no money. Nor did her aunt. But on other occasions, Betty had received funds and given out copies.

    “Mrs. Prince and Betty remained until 8:45 p.m. A few minutes before this, Mr. Perkins approached Mrs. Prince. A discussion ensued. He inquired, and she refused to give Betty’s name. However, she stated the child attended the Shaw School. Mr. Perkins referred to his previous warnings, and said he would allow five minutes for them to get off the street. Mrs. Prince admitted she supplied Betty with the magazines, and said,

    [N]either you nor anybody else can stop me . . . This child is exercising her G[-]d-given right and her constitutional right to preach the gospel, and no creature has a right to interfere with G[-]d’s commands.

    “However, Mrs. Prince and Betty departed. She remarked as she went, ‘I’m not going through this any more. We’ve been through it time and time again. I’m going home and put the little girl to bed.’ It may be added that testimony, by Betty, her aunt, and others was offered at the trials, and was excluded, to show that Betty believed it was her religious duty to perform this work, and failure would bring condemnation ‘to everlasting destruction at Armageddon.’

  144. #144 Narad
    May 8, 2014

    ^ By the way, that puts you in a high fυcking torque nutvise when it comes to circumcision.

  145. #145 somitcw
    May 8, 2014

    I broke it into three posts because posting was failing.
    #333 Narad posting start, “While it is sad that five of nine judges passed a lower law that can prevent parents from teaching their children how to work with parents using such a dangerous job as passing out literature, what does that have to do with the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family.
    It has to do with concept of parens patriae, “… a couple of vulgarities that might be why my postings arn’t accepted?…”all over your slobbering “we have no rights” “timeline.””.
    .
    Had you not cut my timeline, you would see that it matches perfectly.

  146. #146 Narad
    May 8, 2014

    And allow me to short-circuit any attempt on your part to again idiotically hold yourself out as some sort of arbiter of “harm”: The Hershbergers’ appeal explicitly resorted to the proposition that as long as they had custody, they were entitled to withhold life-preserving treatment, and directly stated that chemotherapy was life-preserving treatment.

    The whole argument was based on Ohio precedent stating that a medical guardian cannot mandate removal of life support from a brain-dead patient unless parental rights have been terminated.

  147. #147 somitcw
    May 8, 2014

    #344 Narad posted among other things, “While it is sad that five of nine judges passed a lower law
    Whatever the fυck the giant teratoma attached to your neckstalk “thinks” that means.
    that can prevent parents from teaching their children how to work with parents using such a dangerous job as passing out literature
    It didn’t have a fυcking thing to do with “teaching children how to work with parents”:”.
    .
    Mother stated that it was her work. The child did the work.
    If I had a family business and had what they called “legal custody of a nine year old” child, you had better believe that I would do my duty by introducing the child to working at the family business years before that child became nine. It wouldn’t matter if the business was religious or not.

  148. #148 somitcw
    May 8, 2014

    #347 Narad posted, “And allow me to short-circuit any attempt on your part to again idiotically hold yourself out as some sort of arbiter of “harm”: The Hershbergers’ appeal explicitly resorted to the proposition that as long as they had custody, they were entitled to withhold life-preserving treatment, and directly stated that chemotherapy was life-preserving treatment.
    The whole argument was based on Ohio precedent stating that a medical guardian cannot mandate removal of life support from a brain-dead patient unless parental rights have been terminated.”.
    .
    Unproven experimental chemicals that have never cured one case of cancer in the history of mankind has not been proven to be “life-preserving treatment”.
    We are also not 100 percent certain that it sterilized Sarah Hershberger.
    .
    The family was fully competent to make proper medical decisions. The allopaths trying to save their U.S. dollar 1,000,000 income lost competency because of greed. Actually, they lost competency when they decided that the almighty U.S. dollar was more important than the health of their customers.

  149. #149 Calli Arcale
    http://fractalwonder.wordpress.com
    May 8, 2014

    I really do need to get some popcorn. This is getting good. 😉

  150. #150 Narad
    May 8, 2014

    Had you not cut my timeline, you would see that it matches perfectly.

    “Cut”? It doesn’t matter. If 1944 “matches perfectly,” then you’re fυcked again, because it didn’t start there. The first juvenile court was established in 1899. Before that, what you’re complaining about was worse (e.g., Ex parte Crouse, 4 Whart. 9 (Pa. 1839)).

  151. #151 Narad
    May 8, 2014

    I really do need to get some popcorn. This is getting good.

    I’m afraid I have somewhat more pressing things to do tonight than play Miles Cowperthwaite.

  152. #152 Shay
    May 8, 2014

    somitcw, labile and that chemist with the radar fixation…is the moon full?

  153. #153 Helianthus
    May 9, 2014

    Unproven experimental chemicals that have never cured one case of cancer in the history of mankind has not been proven to be “life-preserving treatment”.

    Speaking of which.
    What about the effectiveness of your “safer and more effective traditional medical treatment”?
    It hasn’t been proved either. Which slightly undermine your argument.

    Actually, medical history seems to indicate that “traditional” treatments are not very helpful.
    If it was, Anne d’Autriche would have jumped on it for treating her breast cancer, instead of going for surgery without anesthesia.
    Well, maybe the FDA was already controlling France’s medicine and media in the 17th century.

  154. #154 Narad
    May 9, 2014

    Unproven experimental chemicals

    Where? You have the entire list of possible clinical trials.

    that have never cured one case of cancer in the history of mankind

    You lose again.

    has not been proven to be “life-preserving treatment”.

    Tell it to the Hershbergers, shіthead, because it’s their argument.

    We are also not 100 percent certain that it sterilized Sarah Hershberger.

    “We”? “100 percent”? What do you think the mechanism of fertility problems is? What makes you think they’re in play? What do you think the comparative risk would be when treating a recurrence? Go plug it into FυckFυckGo.com and get back to me.

    The family was fully competent to make proper medical decisions.

    They didn’t seek any medical care at all. The tumor that was affecting her ability to breathe was rather promptly noticed when the parents brought her in for a toothache. They have eighth-grade educations. Granted, they’re obviously more intelligent than you are, but that does not make them competent.

    The allopaths trying to save their U.S. dollar 1,000,000 income lost competency because of greed.

    U.S. medical doctors don’t make million-dollar salaries, asshat, and treatment under the guardianship was at no cost to the family. Do you think Mexican quack clinics are charities?

  155. #155 Helianthus
    May 9, 2014

    @ Narad

    We are also not 100 percent certain that it sterilized Sarah Hershberger.

    I am not 100 percent certain that somitcw’s definition of “sterilization” is consistent from hour to hour. He seems to be quite liberal in its use.
    Whatever it means for him, he seems persuaded that doctors are out to sterilize everything in sight, from men to women to cancer cells to hemp oil (how do you sterilize vegetable oil anyway? Making sure it doesn’t contain any nuts?).
    Maybe he met a doctor next to an autoclave and misunderstood the purpose of this sterilization apparatus…

  156. #156 LW
    May 9, 2014

    We are also not 100 percent certain that it sterilized Sarah Hershberger.

    And she were, what would that mean? She should be forced to die a horrible death if the alternative is to allow her to live like a human being who happens not to be able to have children? Better dead than sterile? Women are nothing but incubators so a sterile woman is a waste of carbon?

    I just want to be sure I understand somitcw’s point here.

  157. #157 NumberWang
    May 9, 2014

    Not sure that it is possible to understand somitcw’s point. Where the hell did this 1940s thing materialize from? Some kind of legal precedent for ‘authority’ overriding a parents role? Now I have to re-read all the wahgarble to find out. Life is too short.

  158. #158 Narad
    May 9, 2014

    I’m just going to telescope the history of the bonehead’s imaginary parental-rights routine.

    In Ex parte Crouse (1838), the Pennsylvania supreme court explicitly stated that the Bill of Rights did not apply to minors, rejecting a claim by Mary Ann Crouse’s father that she had been illegally incarcerated. It was explicitly predicated on the notion that the state had the right to intervene if it felt like the parents were insufficiently competent.

    Later, the Illinois supreme court came around to the notion that “we should not forget the rights which inhere both in parents and children…. [t]he parent has the right to the care, custody, and assistance of his child.” People v. Turner, 55 Ill. 280 (1870). Nobody paid much attention.

    Directly on point, we come to People v. Pierson, 176 N.Y. 201, 68 N.E. 243 (1903), a faith-healing case. Pierson’s attorney – arguing that there was no parental duty to “furnish medical attendance” – explicitly invoked Turner, interestingly continuing with this:

    “Not until medicine approaches far nearer to the position of an exact science, not until its theories and doctrines emerge at least from the chaotic state, can men be forced by legislative enactment to employ the services of a physician for themselves or for those who are dependent upon them.”

    Turner lost.

    What the halfwit (speaking generously) fails to realize here is that the “right” he believes was “taken away” didn’t even really exist until Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U.S. 390 (1923) (prohibiting teaching of foreign languages) and Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U.S. 510 (1925) (mandating public school attendance). See, e.g., Barbara Bennett Woodhouse, “Who Owns the Child?”: Meyer and Pierce and the Child as Property, 33 Wm. & Mary L. Rev. 995 (1992).

    That’s it in a nutshell. All Prince did was add another explicit statement of the obvious fact that what was created in the 1920s was not unlimited.

  159. #159 Narad
    May 9, 2014

    ^ “Turner Pierson lost.”

  160. #160 somitcw
    June 1, 2014

    Victory for Sarah Hershberger.
    One year ago, allopaths told the Hershbergers that Sarah would be dead within a year if the Hershbergers did not allow the allopaths to continue chemo treatments. The supposed chemo treatments were actually harsh experimental chemicals for a secret study that the allopaths would collect one million U.S. dollars for keeping Sarah Hershberger in, but the Hershbergers were not told that.
    Sarah Hershberger is now one of the children that allopaths tried to force treatment on for cancer but escaped to instead used traditional medicine so they could live. Sarah Hershberger had a type of cancer that may have been caused by non-therapeutic injected form of vitamin k at birth.
    Even with our sick allopathic “medicine” and crooked courts in the U.S.A., a few people are able to slip through the cracks and live.
    Giving the then ten-year-old either harsh experimental or real chemo may have caused sterilization and impacted growth so all should pray that damage caused by allopathic “medicine” was less than expected.

  161. #161 Lawrence
    June 1, 2014

    Wow – back again to repeat the same old already debunked crap?

  162. #162 LW
    June 1, 2014

    @somitcw,

    You have failed to indicate whether your touching concern for Sarah’s fertility is due to the fact that you regard a sterile woman as a waste of carbon who is better dead than cluttering up the world for worthwhile people like yourself. 

    I have some questions about your most recent comment:

    One year ago, allopaths told the Hershbergers that Sarah would be dead within a year if the Hershbergers did not allow the allopaths to continue chemo treatments.

    Source?  Any reputable news report will do.

    The supposed chemo treatments were actually harsh experimental chemicals for a secret study that the allopaths would collect one million U.S. dollars for keeping Sarah Hershberger in

    Source?  One million U.S. dollars is a very specific sum of money. Where did that precise number come from?  Again, any reputable news report will do.

    Sarah Hershberger had a type of cancer that may have been caused by non-therapeutic injected form of vitamin k at birth.

    Source?  You surely have some source from the medical literature indicating that vitamin K causes cancer. 

    Please provide sources for these allegations. Otherwise I am forced to assume that they are mere fantasies of a disordered imagination. 

  163. #163 somitcw
    June 1, 2014

    #363 LW blew smoke by posting among other things, “You have failed to indicate whether your touching concern for Sarah’s fertility is due to the fact that you regard a sterile woman as a waste of carbon who is better dead than cluttering up the world for worthwhile people like yourself.”.
    .
    How about you force sterilize several or all members of your family and then everyone else can decide if it was because your family was a waste of carbon or if there were other motives?
    .
    #363 LW blew smoke by posting among other things, “I have some questions about your most recent comment:”.
    .
    You continue to ignore links that I provided so why don’t you find whatever sites that you will believe? Try to ask someone to teach you how to use a web search engine or to do your searches for you.
    Then search for things like:
    Sarah Hershberger experimental
    vitamin k cancer
    .
    Also, do you really believe that the allopaths told her that she would live hundreds of years without treatment? Do you really believe that the allopaths told the Hershbergers that experimental chemicals were substituted for chemo? Do you really believe that the allopaths were forcing the experimental chemicals for free? Do you really believe that any non-therapeutic injections either have a benefit or that they cause no harm?
    Properly done web searches may find information that is more accurate than guesses.

  164. #164 Narad
    June 1, 2014

    One year ago, allopaths told the Hershbergers that Sarah would be dead within a year if the Hershbergers did not allow the allopaths to continue chemo treatments.

    The first case wasn’t even filed until August 5, 2013.

  165. #165 Orac
    June 1, 2014

    It’s possible that when Sarah was first diagnosed the oncologists said she would be dead within a year if she didn’t undergo chemotherapy at all. However, she did undergo induction chemotherapy and one or two cycles of consolidation chemotherapy before further chemotherapy was refused.

  166. #166 Narad
    June 1, 2014

    Oh, wait, the interim Medina courts interface sucks. That was the appeal. Hang on.

  167. #167 Narad
    June 1, 2014

    And the Court of Common Pleas search page is completely broken. It was case 2013-07-GM-00029, so it was filed in July.

  168. #168 Narad
    June 1, 2014

    Let’s review:

    {¶12} In April 2013, S.H. was admitted to Akron Children’s Hospital for fatigue and an observable mass near her collarbone. After examination and testing, it was determined S.H. has a type of leukemia, T-Cell Lymphoblastic Lymphoma, Stage III. She had tumors in her neck, chest (mediastinum) and kidneys. The most significant concern was the mass in S.H.’s neck area, which prior to initial treatment, impacted her airway and caused her admission into the pediatric intensive care unit. Sarah’s doctors recommended she undergo chemotherapy. The parents consented, but they testified the doctors did not fully explain to them the short-term and long-term effects of chemotherapy. According to the parents, the doctors also understated the risks to S.H.’s health if she underwent chemotherapy.

    {¶13} Dr. Prasad Bodas testified that S.H.’s chemotherapy treatment has five separate phases: Induction (5 weeks), Consolidation (seven weeks), and Interim maintaince (eight weeks), Delayed Intensification (six weeks) and Maintenance (90 weeks). The total duration of the therapy is two years, three months. Dr. Bodas testified
    that with conventional treatment S.H. has an 85% likelihood of eradicating her cancer and recovering from her illness, i.e. surviving for five years or longer.

    {¶14} S.H. completed the induction phase of her treatment and the first week of the consolidation phase. According to her parents, the effects from the chemotherapy
    were ‘horrible” and “terrible.” S.H. begged her parents to stop the treatments. Mother said she and Father could not stand to watch what was happening to their daughter.

    {¶15} The parents believed chemotherapy was killing S.H. They had observed firsthand the effects of the treatment and they reconsidered (or became aware of) other long·term effects and risks to S.H. if she continued with treatment. Mother testified she and Father prayed for S.H.’s health and prayed for wisdom to discern [G-d]’s plan for
    her.

    {¶16} In June, S.H.’s cancer had improved but she was still very sick from the side effects of the treatment. The parents decided to stop chemotherapy and to begin to
    treat S.H. through natural, holistic medicine. They informed Dr. Bodas of their decision.

    {¶17} Dr. Bodas testified no conventional medical treatment would be as effective as the chemotherapy protocol he recommended. He said no alternative treatment, such as “natural” treatments would have any therapeutic effect on her cancer. If S.H. is not treated or if she is treated other than by chemotherapy, Dr. Bodas testified S.H. has no chance to survive her illness. S.H. will die in six months to a year. He testified a delay or interruption of her chemotherapy treatment increases the chances she will not survive her cancer if the treatment is resumed. He said S.H.’s cancer is growing and becoming more resistant to treatment.

    So: (1) Yes, somitcw is a month premature. (2) We don’t know what Sarah’s condition is, likely because there was a probate order regarding media coverage a couple of months ago.

  169. #169 NumberWang
    June 1, 2014

    Wahgarble is too kind. One hundred years???????……?

  170. #170 Narad
    June 1, 2014

    Do you really believe that the allopaths told the Hershbergers that experimental chemicals were substituted for chemo?

    You may recall that you were offered the opportunity to substantiate this right before you ran away the last time.

    Now, what was that you said?

    Try to ask someone to teach you how to use a web search engine or to do your searches for you.

    Snap to, Slothrop.

  171. #171 NumberWang
    June 1, 2014

    Sorry, hundreds of years! Wuh?

  172. #172 Narad
    June 1, 2014

    Giving the then ten-year-old either harsh experimental or real chemo may have caused sterilization and impacted growth

    Of malignant cells, yes. Now, as LW noted, you seem to have fascinating, detailed insight into the “secret study,” such as the specific amount of blood money. It stands to reason that you should also know the identities of the “harsh experimental chemicals.”

    Therefore, you should be able to specify the concomitant risk of sterility.

  173. #173 ann
    June 1, 2014

    You continue to ignore links that I provided so why don’t you find whatever sites that you will believe? Try to ask someone to teach you how to use a web search engine or to do your searches for you.
    Then search for things like:
    Sarah Hershberger experimental

    I took your advice. And this is what I learned:

    There are a bunch of irresponsible websites out there mischaracterizing the treatment as “experimental” because it was part of a clinical trial.

    However, to quote the American Childhood Cancer Organization:

    Clinical trials are designated phase I, II, or III. Briefly, phase I trials study new drugs and phase II trials study whether or not a drug is effective against a cancer. Phase III trials study small changes to the current standard of care for a particular cancer to determine if these changes improve the survival rate.

    (Emphasis added. Link:

    https://acco.org/Information/TreatmentandSurvivorship/ClinicalTrials.aspx)

    So. Phase III clinical trials are standard-of-care, not experimental. And it seems virtually certain that Sarah Hershberger was in a Phase III clinical trial. Because as you can see at this link here…

    http://www.cancer.gov/clinicaltrials/search/results?protocolsearchid=12789510

    …that’s what all the clinical trials that entail treatment for the kind and subtype of cancer she has that are being done at Akron Children’s Hospital are!

    I look forward to your gracious acknowledgment of my having blown away the smoke you evidently picked up elsewhere.

    It was getting in your eyes.

    I’ll do “vitamin k cancer” later.

  174. #174 Narad
    June 1, 2014

    I’ll do “vitamin k cancer” later.

    I’ve got a Bicentennial quarter that says it’s a de novo mutation.

  175. #175 LW
    June 1, 2014

    somitcw still hasn’t answered my question. I continue to think that its fixation on Sarah Hershberger’s fertility is due to its belief that a sterile woman is a waste of carbon, so life-saving treatment with a possible side effect of sterility (not actually shown to be the case here of course) should be denied to a little girl. Better that she should die than that she should survive but be sterile, in somitcw’s world.

  176. #176 Narad
    June 1, 2014

    I continue to think that its fixation on Sarah Hershberger’s fertility is due to its belief that a sterile woman is a waste of carbon

    It’s a second-order filtering process. It took media focus on the appeal to produce the crude material.

  177. #177 ann
    June 1, 2014

    @LW —

    You could be right. But there’s more than one kind of quasi-voyeuristic, counterphobic prurient-yet-puritanical fixation it could be.

    For example: The prospect of her sterility might signify a eugenicist gubmint plot, which obscurely elicited thoughts of the robust assertions of potency that would be necessary to combat it. Or something of that nature.

    The source of the attraction-repulsion might be kinda submerged, IOW. You know. Return of the repressed. Like that.

  178. #178 LW
    June 1, 2014

    In that article: “During chemotherapy, the girl’s tumors shrank, but she did not enter remission.”

    That doesn’t bode well for her at all, I think.

  179. #179 somitcw
    June 1, 2014

    #365 Narad posted more smoke, “One year ago, allopaths told the Hershbergers that Sarah would be dead within a year if the Hershbergers did not allow the allopaths to continue chemo treatments.
    The first case wasn’t even filed until August 5, 2013.”.
    .
    What does “case” have to do with “allopaths told the Hershbergers”?
    Tell me that you aren’t going silly. Lie if you need to.

  180. #180 somitcw
    June 1, 2014

    #366 Orac posted, “It’s possible that when Sarah was first diagnosed the oncologists said she would be dead within a year if she didn’t undergo chemotherapy at all. However, she did undergo induction chemotherapy and one or two cycles of consolidation chemotherapy before further chemotherapy was refused.”.
    .
    While your guess might be correct, it is not what multiple news reports say.
    Before the first experimental assault, the Hershbergers were told that without the initial treatment, she would die within two weeks.
    When the Hershbergers suggested adding traditional medicine which would have messed up the experimental study, they were told that Sarah would die within one year.
    A couple of months later, “If S.H. is not treated or if she is treated other than by chemotherapy, Dr. Bodas testified S.H. has no chance to survive her illness. S.H. will die in six months to a year. He testified a delay or interruption of her chemotherapy treatment increases the chances she will not survive her cancer if the treatment is resumed. He said S.H.’s cancer is growing and becoming more resistant to treatment.”.
    All were allopathic lies just like the lies about her getting standard chemo would give with the various 85 percent, 80 percent, and 90 percent for living a few years after the over two years of treatment, ignoring that the Hershbergers were being lied to and Sarah Hershberger was secretly enrolled in a study, not standard chemo for the various percentages.
    But in direct contradiction, Sarah Hershberger is alive just like all of the children that escape forced cancer treatment and switch to traditional medicine. A factual one hundred percent is better than a guessed at random number percent.
    Since my posts are being delayed, I will assume that this one will not get through and will stop trying for now.
    At least, I was allowed to proclaim Sarah Hershberger’s living victory over allopaths and a crooked court.

  181. #181 Narad
    June 1, 2014

    That doesn’t bode well for her at all, I think.

    The question remains whether somitcw will similarly make a point of loudly stinking up the joint should worse come to worst.

  182. #182 ann
    June 1, 2014

    Well. Taking somitcw’s guidance literally and searching for “vitamin k cancer” just results in a bunch of sites — including the American Cancer Society and Mercola in the top three — that trumpet the curative and/or preventative properties of vitamin k in connection with (primarily) liver and prostate cancer, but also leukemia.

    So I added the word “birth” to the search terms. And here’s what I learned!!!

    There’s a 1992 British study that purported to show an association between Vitamin K injections at birth and a hugely increased rate of childhood cancer, particularly lymphoblastic leukemia.

    And anti-vax sites just love that study so very much that they continue to cleave to it and shun all others, lo these 23 years later, which is almost an entire generation.

    Admirable as this loyalty may be, it is — in this case — misguided. There have been a raftload of follow-up studies (by which I mean “more than ten”) that either show no correlation or possibly a very weak correlation that can’t really be ruled in or ruled out.

    It appears to depend on whether the study was using place-and-hospital matched controls. When they do, there’s no difference in childhood cancer rates between infants who received Vitamin K at birth and those who didn’t.

    So there’s some reason to think that there’s an environmental trigger in the picture.

    And there might once have been a very, very slight reason to continue to include Vitamin K injections at birth on the list of candidates for that.

    But if you’re a person who didn’t stop being open to life’s infinite possibilities 23 years ago, that probably would have dwindled to a tiny little point in 1999, when Wiemels et al published “Prenatal origins of lymphoblastic leukemia in children.”

    (As the title suggests, they found “an acute lymphocytic leukemia-associated gene in 12 children with newly diagnosed acute lymphocytic leukemia and postulated that an in utero chromosomal translocation event combined with a postnatal promotional event results in clinical leukemia.”

    So it’s possible that the postnatal promotional event is Vitamin K at birth. But it’s not particularly more likely than any number of other things. And whatever the case, the cause — to use the language of somitcw’s claim — appears to be a de novo mutation.

    Narad wins.)

    .

  183. #183 ann
    June 1, 2014

    It’s amazing how somitcw only saw that one response @365, rather than any of the more fully fleshed out ones that followed it.

    Isn’t it.

  184. #184 LW
    June 1, 2014

    “If S.H. is not treated or if she is treated other than by chemotherapy, Dr. Bodas testified S.H. has no chance to survive her illness. S.H. will die in six months to a year.” (emphasis added)

    Which means that, contrary to somitcw’s claims, Dr. Bodas said that after the lawsuit started, i.e., no earlier than August 5, 2013.

  185. #185 Narad
    June 2, 2014

    Try to ask someone to teach you how to use a web search engine or to do your searches for you.
    Then search for things like:
    Sarah Hershberger experimental
    vitamin k cancer

    OK.

    Holy Fυck!

    Really?

    Oh, how humiliating.

  186. #186 ann
    June 2, 2014

    vitamin k cancer

    As far as I can tell, there are only two studies that claim a possible association on ^^that, both of which used small samples and inadequate controls — one (the 1992 thing I mentioned above) to the extent that it’s since been effectively rebutted; and one (from 1998) that potentially shows a weak association between Vitamin K at birth and lymphoblasic leukemia diagnosed between the ages of one and six, which has since been further weakened by numerous subsequent studies.

    So basically, somitcw’s assertion that Sarah Hershberger’s cancer may have been caused by Vitamin K is based on one study that didn’t even show weak signs of an elevated risk of leukemia in children her age.

    Or, put another way: It’s based on nothing at all, apart from rumors made up by strangers on the internet.

    That’s to say nothing of the “non-therapeutic” part of the allegation. I have no idea what the argument there is supposed to be.

    (Babies have enough Vitamin K? Can be given enough Vitamin K via non-therapeutic routes of administration? If the good lord didn’t want babies to bleed to death in early infancy, he’d send his angels to protect them?

    There’s no evidence for any of those, and what evidence there is for the first two universally favors the opposite conclusion. So some elaboration appears to be called for.)

  187. #187 Helianthus
    June 2, 2014

    @ ann

    That’s to say nothing of the “non-therapeutic” part of the allegation.

    I think somitcw is simply adhering to the “Si non confectus, non reficiat” school of thought. It is consistently ignoring the advantages of any preventative medicine. If you are not bedridden, you don’t need anything.
    Unless it’s its complicated way of saying that a medical procedure has no benefit, i.e. is not working.

    Of course, one could rightfully ask, as you did, how giving vitamin K to babies with a lack of vitamin K could be seen as either not needed or not working.

  188. #188 Irene Delse
    June 2, 2014

    @ann, Helianthus:

    I can’t help but think that for a certain type of alties, using preventative medicine is a sign of inferiority or laziness. If you have need for vaccines, vit K injections, etc., you must be genetically unfit or have a bad lifestyle and hence you don’t deserve to enjoy health. Basically, a blame-the-victim, borderline eugenistic mentality.

  189. #189 Calli Arcale
    June 2, 2014

    NumberWang:

    Sorry, hundreds of years! Wuh?

    Yes, I think that was a case of moving the goalposts not just down the field, but outside the stadium entirely. I suppose he thought he was being funny with that hyperbole.

  190. #190 somitcw
    June 2, 2014

    My last three posts were finally approved so to add to the discussing:
    #388 Helianthus posted among other things, “Of course, one could rightfully ask, as you did, how giving vitamin K to babies with a lack of vitamin K could be seen as either not needed or not working.”.
    .
    No one doubts that a human baby from 2 days old to 6 days old does not have as much vitamin k as a normal adult.
    That is normal and has been normal for as long as there have been human babies. Fish evolved a half of billion years ago and they use vitamin k. So do amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals. The gap in human babies is because vitamin k depletes in about two days and the babies intestinal bacteria does not create vitamin k until about the baby’s sixth day. It has been happening for at least several thousand years and caused the Jewish traditional tiny clip of a tiny bit of an infant’s foreskin to be delayed until the eight day. Of course the full foreskin with the sexual ribs and 20,000 of the 28,000 sexual nerves is now amputated to not protect the stub left that dries until cialis is needed.
    .
    The baby had vitamin k during gestation or several of their organs would not develop. The baby has vitamin k at birth and to repeat from earlier posts, the newborn will have the full amount of vitamin k that the newborn needs which is the highest amount the newborn will have for about a week.
    Adding synthetic vitamin k and two other dangerous chemicals on top of full natural vitamin k makes no sense.
    .
    Exception: Allopaths filling a mother with dope before birth can destroy all of her vitamin k. The last bit of vitamin k will go to the unborn child but if there is none, then there is none to go.
    .
    If there was a reason to add vitamin k, it would make more sense to use oral vitamin k with unknown dangers than injected vitamin k with studies showing one of its dangers.
    Of course you can believe the cover-up studies that say that there is no significant different and explain to the one in one thousand that get a vitamin k induced cancer that they are not significant or the studies that say that so much cancer is caused by infant formula that infant formula cancer obscure vitamin k cancer rates.
    .
    P.S. I do not believe that Sarah Hershberger’s cancer came from non-therapeutic smallpox vaccine or SV40 non-therapeutic polio vaccine because they caused different types of cancer than the cancer that she had last year. She is also too young to have had those allopathic assaults.
    I don’t believe that Sarah had cancer from baby formula because most Amish are more intelligent to use infant formula unless absolutely necessary.
    Injected non-therapeutic synthetic vitamin k with two other dangerous chemicals injection looks like a good fit.
    Natural cancer is possible but the rates of modern juvenile cancer dwarfs any type of natural cancer.

  191. #191 Krebiozen
    June 3, 2014

    somitcw,

    But in direct contradiction, Sarah Hershberger is alive just like all of the children that escape forced cancer treatment and switch to traditional medicine. A factual one hundred percent is better than a guessed at random number percent.

    I’m curious to know which children with Stage III leukemia have survived after ‘traditional medicine’ alone. If ‘traditional medicine’ is so effective there must be many examples, but I can’t find a single one.

    Finding people who have survived leukemia and other cancers thanks to conventional treatment is easy: here, for example. Where are the ‘traditional medicine’ survivors?

    So, why do you believe that ‘traditional medicine’ is 100% effective at treating cancer? Where is the evidence for this “factual one hundred percent “?

    Are you simply inventing this to try to dissuade people from allowing their children to have proven life-saving treatment?

  192. #192 herr doktor bimler
    June 3, 2014

    So, why do you believe that ‘traditional medicine’ is 100% effective at treating cancer?

    “Traditional” here is evidently a term of art, having nothing to do with any long-established ethnological folkway, but instead referring to the state-of-the-art cutting-edge quackery to which the Hershbergers subjected their daughter (“high doses of vitamin C and B17, oxygen therapy, detoxification methods, as well as the IV chelation”). Techniques, that is, which leave Somitcw free to make up claims about a 100% cure rate, unencumbered by any records.

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