Autism One: As quacky as it ever was

Once again, the yearly autism quackfest known as Autism One is fast approaching. In fact, it will begin in Chicago tomorrow: five days of “autism biomed” quackery and antivaccine pseudoscience. Ever since the Great Schism in the autism antivaccine quackery community, which severed Generation Rescue from Autism One and ended Jenny McCarthy’s run of being the keynote speaker every year, it just hasn’t been the same. Well, not quite. It turns out that a lot of the speakers are still the same, Generation Rescue or not, Jenny McCarthy or not. Just take a look at the speaker list, and you’ll see a lot of familiar names.

Heck, there are some real blasts from the past this year. Believe it or not, those hoary old mercury militia warriors, the father-son team of quacks who treat autism by chemically castrating children and then subjecting them to chelation therapy, Mark and David Geier, are there. It looks as though they’ll be talking about Latest Evidence Associating Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines with Autism Spectrum & Other Neurodevelopmental Disorders, which will probably just be a rehash of the same pseudoscience that they’ve been peddling since before I ever started blogging mixed together with Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s latest “findings.” I guess the Geier’s quackery will always have an appeal in the deeper, darker parts of the autism biomed movement.

Not surprisingly, there’s another constant of Autism One and pretty much any antivaccine or autism quackfest you can think of on the schedule as well. This one should be so obvious that you should be able to guess it if you have even the merest passing acquaintance with the antivaccine movement. Yep, I’m referring to Andrew Wakefield himself, the discredited physician and researcher who lost his license to practice in the UK in the wake of the retraction of his most (in)famous paper, a case series in The Lancet that linked the MMR vaccine to “autistic enterocolitis,” a man whose legacy now consists largely of scientific fraud and measles outbreaks.

And what is Wakefield going to talk about? This:

This presentation describes how patterns of environmental exposure influence outcome. It deals with some of the enduring arguments put forward by those who reject the vaccine-autism connection and sets the scene for why CDC scientists would examine age of exposure to MMR and autism risk in their ultimately fraudulent DeStefano et al. study of 2004.

Yes, we’re talking the CDC whistleblower manufactroversy. It’s a story that Andrew Wakefield and Brian Hooker have been trying to use to attack the CDC since last summer. Most recently, they wrote a letter of complaint to the CDC that was so hilariously off-base and full of misinformation that I’m sure the CDC gave it exactly all the attention it deserved.

Then there’s Anju Usman. We’ve encountered her before being sued for a truly depressing and horrifying repertoire of autism biomed quackery. Her topic? Autism biomed quackery, of course:

Dr. Anju Usman is director of True Health Medical Center in Naperville, Illinois. She specializes in biomedical interventions for children with ADD, autism, and related disorders. She has been involved in research regarding copper/zinc imbalances, biofilm related infections, and hyperbaric oxygen therapy. She serves on the boards for ASI, TACA, and Generation Rescue. She is board certified in family practice and in integrative and holistic medicine.

In other words, she “integrates” quackery with medicine. I will give her credit for a modicum of creativity in the choice of quackery to appropriate. Sure, there’s the usual “detoxification” nonsense, but she also includes “biofilm,” which is one of the latest buzzwords among this crowd.

But that’s not all! One of the keynotes features not just one, not just two, not just three, but four—count ’em!—four quacks giving a talk about vaccines:

Educated parents are deconstructing vaccine orthodoxy and finding that the science doesn’t just come up short. In many cases, it doesn’t come up at all. It’s time for a new paradigm on an old practice that increasing numbers of parents and clinicians are questioning — do vaccines cause more harm than good? Let’s take a deep dive into the facts, clinical practice, the science, and the options for parents.

  • A framework for children’s health: A pediatrician’s view on infectious disease, germ theory, and immunity. [Larry Palevsky, MD, FAAP]
  • Maternal agency and medical paternalism in pregnancy: An examination of the fetal impacts of vaccination, ultrasound, and the microbiome through the lenses of functional medicine and holism. [Kelly Brogan, MD]
  • What’s in a vaccine? A dispassionate assessment of vaccine constituents, including adjuvants, antigens, and adventitious agents. [Sayer Ji]
  • Parental rights and wrongs: The Fearless Parent tackles mythology, social stigma, and the brass tacks of vaccine mandates, exemptions, and health freedom. [Louise Kuo Habakus, MA]

You know. antivaccinationists always claim they’re not antivaccine. So do a lot of autism biomed advocates. If that’s the case, then why is there always so much attention paid to the supposed “evils” of vaccines? It’s because it’s always about the vaccines. It’s always been about the vaccines. It always will be about the vaccines. In any case, I’ve applied some Insolence, be it Respectful or not-so-Respectful, to each and every one of these quacks before. In particular, I’ve mocked Sayer Ji on more occasions than I can remember, but most recently when he he denied the genetic basis of inherited cancers. I’ve caught Kelly Brogan teaming up with Sayer Ji to egregiously misinterpret a study. I’ve also taken note of Larry Palevsky, yet another in a line of antivaccine pediatricians. Dr. Palevsky happened to capture my attention when he appeared in an antivaccine propaganda flick, The Greater Good. Then, of course, there’s Louise Kuo Habakus, whose antivaccine activism and lies I’ve discussed a few times.

Depressingly, in addition to all these antivaccine quacks, there’s one particularly despicable, one particularly nasty quack. I’m referring, of course, to Kerri Rivera, the woman who advocates subjecting autistic children to ingesting bleach and taking bleach enemas to treat autism. I once asked whether the autism biomed movement will ever renounce the use of bleach to treat autism. The answer, we now see, is clearly no. It looks like it’s bleach enema karaoke again this year, at least if Rivera’s talk is any indication:

This presentation will give a brief explanation of the protocol that has helped 163 children (as of January 2015) lose a diagnosis of autism. It will feature before-and-after stories and pictures of children whose families have successfully used the protocol as well as children who have lost their diagnosis and what they did to get there. There will also be a discussion of the protocol’s use for other areas of the spectrum and beyond.

Kerri Rivera is a biomedical consultant for CD Autism (International) Curando El Autismo (Latin America), and Venciendo el Autismo (Venezuela). Since the addition of chlorine dioxide to her biomedical protocol, she has seen 163 children lose their diagnosis of autism in the past 4 years. Since 2007, Kerri has lectured internationally on biomedical protocols for autism and CD for autism. She graduated as a Certified Homeopath in June 2013. She is the author of “Healing the Symptoms Known as Autism.”

You know, since Rivera is now a homeopath, maybe she could dilute the bleach (a.k.a. Miracle Mineral Solution or MMS) to 30C. It would still be quackery, but at least it would be much less potentially harmful. Interestingly, Rivera has finally attracted the attention of the local media in Chicago. Just yesterday there was a story on NBC 5 in Chicago, Chicago Woman Offers Controversial “Miracle Treatment”:

From her home base in Puerta Vallarta, Mexico, Chicago native Kerri Rivera counsels parents of children with autism on a “miracle treatment” that she says can rid their children of the curse of the dreaded disease.

Critics say her treatments, which involve the chemical chlorine dioxide, are tantamount to poisoning children, but Rivera refers to those critics as “haters” and “trolls.” She insists the protocol has removed more than 170 children from the autism spectrum.

“If, in fact, chlorine dioxide were this toxic poisonous bleach, there would be a sea of dead children,” Rivera told NBC5 Investigates. “How can this be bad if people are healing and nobody’s dying?”

Medical professionals say the treatment hardly heals, but rather makes sick children even sicker, with no demonstrable benefits.

Of course it does, because it’s a friggin’ bleach! Not only that, but there’s no biological plausibility that such a treatment would work or clinical evidence to show that it does, just Rivera’s “case series” of children on whom she’s plied her quackery. Yes, I’m getting a bit worked up here. Contemplating child torture has that effect on me. I gladly claim the title of “hater” when it comes to a woman like Rivera. I need something to calm me down and mellow me out slightly, so that I don’t go too far.

Ah, fortunately Autism One provides just the ticket: Jere Rivera-Dugenio, PhD, a “quantum medicine researcher” from the International Quantum University for Integrative Medicine in Honolulu who specializes in advanced quantum medicine and morphogenetic field physics. His topic? What else? Quantum Medicine as an Effective Method to Balancing the Immune System for Individuals on the Autism Spectrum. Enjoy:

The presenter reveals an advanced quantum medicine model that balances the immune system of individuals on the autism spectrum. Based upon patents and experiments of Nikola Tesla, this proprietary scalar-wave, morphogenetic re-patterning process can improve individuals with acute, standard, and chronic health conditions that are caused by microbiology, pesticides, toxic chemicals, electrosmog, geopathic stress, mercury, heavy metal, and other environmental factors.

Yes, any quackery that invokes Nikola Tesla and quantum physics is still quackery, but at least it tends to be entertaining quackery, unlike shooting bleach up children’s colons.

Comments

  1. #1 shay
    June 11, 2015

    AND….Tinker admits that he doesn’t consider any vaccine safe. Welcome to Tinker’s world, where children (and adults) die of vaccine-preventable diseases.

    Perhaps he should point out to the parents of this season’s 142 pediatric flu victims that flu shots can cause seizures.

  2. #2 JGC
    June 11, 2015

    Since vaccine safety and response hinge on the microbiome of the recipient, none of the current vaccines can be considered safe for general use.

    Citations needed, Keith: your evidence that the microbiomes of individuals differ enough across the general population to result in sufficient variability in children’s responses to the vaccines on the recommended routine vaccination schedule those vaccines cannot be considered safe for use in the general population, would be…what, exactl?y Be specific.

    I mean, you do have some…right?

  3. #3 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 11, 2015

    Adam, that’s not the whole of what I’ve said. More important than vaccines potentially shifting the microbiome (there are no studies for any of the childhood vaccines), is how microbial predisposition affects immune response to vaccination (also no studies).

    Since vaccine response is known to hinge on the microbiome, how about the microbiome regulating susceptibility to vaccine injury? This is currently ignored by scientists because they’re not interested in vaccine safety.

  4. #4 JGC
    June 11, 2015

    BTW, Keith, I can’t help but notice that although you clearly noticed Orac’s post @395 (“Orac the Sterile finally joins the conversation…} you ignored the direct questions you were asked you in that post.

    Canwe expect you to address them anytime soon? I’m certainly interested in which vaccines on the recommended schedule you consider to be safe, which you consider to be instead unsafe, and –most critically–your basis for distinguishing a safe vaccine from an unsafe one.

  5. #5 AdamG
    June 11, 2015

    Since vaccine response is known to hinge on the microbiome

    This is a gross misrepresentation of the research. Can you provide a citation for a single vaccine whose response ‘hinges’ on the microbiome?

    how microbial predisposition affects immune response to vaccination (also no studies).

    OK, Keith. Let’s say I’m about to fund such a study. Can you propose a specific experimental design? Which vaccine would you study first? Why?

  6. #6 Chris
    June 11, 2015

    Mr. Bell, please provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes more seizures than the disease.

    For example, if you claim the influenza vaccine causes seizures, the prove that it happens more often than those caused by influenza. It is about relative risk.

  7. #7 Orac
    June 11, 2015

    Orac the Sterile finally joins the conversation after hundreds of posts across a few of his insensitive, cruel blogs.

    I ignore those “worthy” of being ignored (e.g., you), although sometimes I get in a weird mood and decide to respond.

    1) Since vaccine safety and response hinge on the microbiome of the recipient, none of the current vaccines can be considered safe for general use. They’re one-size-fits-all in a world of individuals.

    In other words, you are antivaccine and don’t believe that any vaccine is safe and effective. You also have no idea what you’re talking about with respect to the microbiome.

    2) When vaccines become personalized, evidence of safety may accrue. For now, evidence is to the contrary, especially regarding the barbaric CDC protocol beginning within 12 hours of birth.

    Define “personalized.” Be specific. No handwaving.

  8. #8 MI Dawn
    June 11, 2015

    I believe Keith has in his cloud-coocoo-land a vision where we have specific preparations of vaccines for every person on the planet. Here’s Orac’s personalized set of vaccines, and Chris’, and Keith’s, and palindrom’s. Of course, Keith has no idea of the cost of such things, because he’s trying to hide that he’s really anti-vaccine entirely, NOT “pro-safe vaccine”.

  9. #9 ChrisP
    Australia
    June 11, 2015

    MI Dawn, you are giving Keith Bell to much credit. Keith has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. The gut microbiome is simply the latest bandwagon to do some handwaving on.

  10. #10 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 11, 2015

    I’m pro-sanitation, not anti-vaccine. And, of course, I don’t have all the answers, just shining a light on the problem.

    Orac, here’s a leader in the field, Greg Poland talking about personalized vaccines:
    http://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-discovers-african-americans-respond-better-to-rubella-vaccine/

    I have a lot to learn about the microbiome, certainly no expert, but probably know far more than most doctors, especially the imupudent, sterile ones like you, Orac.

    Adam, have you seen these recent general articles about the microbiome dictating immune response to vaccination?
    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gut-microbes-may-help-determine-our-immune-response-to-vaccines/
    http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1586/14760584.2015.1040395

  11. #11 Old Rockin' Dave
    June 11, 2015

    Well, I see that old Bell-oney rides again, doing the ever-green Gish gallop.
    I ask him to provide some even vaguely plausible link between vaccines and autism involving his pet hypothesis and he responds with more irrelevancies about polio.
    Many commenters here ask him to provide the science or at least some scientifically valid evidence to support his claims about vaccines and seizures or autism; he puts his hands over his eyes and declares “I can’t read you!”
    Orac asks him at least twice to name one vaccine he considers safe – crickets.
    While ignoring every question posed to him he has a fit of grandiosity and incontinently declares, “You might thank me for pointing the industry in the right direction.” The only direction he’s pointing anyone in is down the rabbit hole of idiocy. A multi-billion dollar industry reaching back over a century and a half and employing many of the most brilliant minds in the biological sciences should suddenly screech to a halt because of the unbaked ideas of a man without any scientific or medical credentials who learned it all from Google.
    About the only fallacy he hasn’t committed here is to tell us, “They laughed at Galileo.” *Spoiler alert*: No they didn’t.

  12. #12 Denice Walter
    June 11, 2015

    The microbiome again?

    Teresa Conrick ( AoA) posts her letter to Mr OBAMA today requesting research about he microbiome and autism, listing loads of studies she finds meaningful.

    It includes this killer sentence:
    “Autism is not a genetic, developmental disorder although decades of irrelevant research have tried to assemble that picture”

    Now Keith goes overboard as well:
    is he talking about helminthes and poo transplants yet?

    Must be something in the water.

  13. #13 Narad
    June 11, 2015

    For example, if you claim the influenza vaccine causes seizures, the prove that it happens more often than those caused by influenza. It is about relative risk.

    That was his response?*

    This somewhat overstates the case, I think (but I’m going to let him “do his own homework”), but the point is that they’re all febrile. His entire idiotic vaccine-gut-pH-brain routine collapses instantly, leaving him no option but to invent an even more stupid escape mechanism.

    * Sorry, Bellend, you’re in the killfile that doesn’t turn off.

  14. #14 ann
    June 11, 2015

    The gut microbiome is simply the latest bandwagon to do some handwaving on.

    Maybe. But I think it just might turn out to be the keeper they’ve been looking for since they lost thimerosal. It has a lot of narrative potential. Kind of like body thetans, except more DIY-science-y

  15. #15 Narad
    June 11, 2015

    But I think it just might turn out to be the keeper they’ve been looking for since they lost thimerosal.

    Keep in mind that Bellend is trying (and miserably failing) to carve out his own niche. From the point of view of the AoA types, the Wakefraud tie-in is obvious: not only was St. Andy right, he was prophetic.

  16. #16 shay
    June 11, 2015

    I’m pro-sanitation, not anti-vaccine

    In what universe does that even make sense?

  17. #17 ChrisP
    June 11, 2015

    Orac, here’s a leader in the field, Greg Poland talking about personalized vaccines:

    Actually he is not. He is talking about research for one vaccine that showed differences in response between populations (races in this case). He then goes on to speculate that one of the interesting outcomes may be being able to change dose dependent on people’s racial heritage.

    I have a lot to learn about the microbiome

    I can’t think of a better way to put it Keith. Except to replace “a lot” with “shed-loads” .

    but probably know far more than most doctors

    Dunning-Kruger writ large.

    Adam, have you seen these recent general articles about the microbiome dictating immune response to vaccination?

    “Although the experimental conditions widely varied across studies, these differences indicate again that the impact of gut microbiota on vaccine immunogenicity is far from being universal.”

    Indeed.

    I think this counts as an epic fail on your part Keith.

  18. #18 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 11, 2015

    #391 Lawrence, I’m no febrile seizure expert, but believe their being blamed on fever may be a mistake. Blaming seizure on fever alone is highly simplistic.

    Febrile seizures breakthrough even after fever is treated. And there’s also afebrile seizure, basically the same thing without fever. Both are gut-related where both fever and seizure are symptoms of gut dysbiosis, neurotransmitter imbalances and hyperactive immune response to vaccination:
    http://www.seizure-journal.com/article/S1059-1311(13)00106-4/fulltext#sec0020
    http://www.courant.com/consumer/hc-ls-kids-doctor-0531-20150529-story.html

    I’ve read 2-10% of children with febrile seizures will go on to develop epilepsy, not very benign as normally considered.

  19. #19 AdamG
    June 11, 2015

    Adam, have you seen these recent general articles about the microbiome dictating immune response to vaccination?

    First Link: SciAm article describing preliminary work in associating microfloral shifts with vaccine effectiveness. Consistent with what I’ve already said, nothing to do with your autism model as described above.

    Second Link: A review titled “Is the microbiome key to modulating vaccine efficacy?”
    I dunno Keith, is it? the authors conclude

    Such data will lead to an understanding of how and to what extent gut microbes can impact vaccine efficacy.

    In what universe does that even make sense?

    That would be the universe of “a 25 year veteran of the recycling industry with interest in sanitation and health.”

  20. #20 Keith Bell
    June 12, 2015

    ChrisP, you’ve totally misconstrued what Greg Poland clearly states as a “foundational finding” and then goes on to generally discuss personalized vaccines. He’s not limiting his discussion to rubella vaccines and African Americans. I suggest you watch the video again, this time without your slanted, slimy views.

  21. #21 Science Mom
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/
    June 12, 2015

    Febrile seizures breakthrough even after fever is treated. And there’s also afebrile seizure, basically the same thing without fever. Both are gut-related where both fever and seizure are symptoms of gut dysbiosis, neurotransmitter imbalances and hyperactive immune response to vaccination:
    http://www.seizure-journal.com/article/S1059-1311(13)00106-4/fulltext#sec0020
    http://www.courant.com/consumer/hc-ls-kids-doctor-0531-20150529-story.html

    Oddly neither of these have anything to do with vaccination and scarily, I think I have an insight into Bell’s warped, scientifically-illiterate mind. Rotavirus infection is associated with an increased risk of febrile seizures ergo there’s a vaccine for that so it must too. But by all means Bell, please connect the dots between these two citations and the preceding claim you made.

  22. #22 Chris
    June 12, 2015

    Science Mom: “Rotavirus infection is associated with an increased risk of febrile seizures ergo there’s a vaccine for that so it must too.”

    I believe it also causes seizures by dehydration. Kind of screws up the electrolytes.

  23. #23 Narad
    June 12, 2015

    Oddly neither of these have anything to do with vaccination and scarily, I think I have an insight into Bell’s warped, scientifically-illiterate mind. Rotavirus infection is associated with an increased risk of febrile seizures ergo there’s a vaccine for that so it must too.

    His whole trip is mining word association in service of his idée fixe. It’s great to watch him twist himself into knots when presented with something novel or go into his distinctive failure mode of “thanking” one for information that will surely assist him going forward. The usual outcome that I’ve observed is that this is prognostic for “pretend it never happened.”

  24. #24 ChrisP
    Australia
    June 12, 2015

    Further to Keith Bell’s epic fail above, I should point out that I read the review by Nakaya and Bruna-Romero and more importantly a couple of the key studies they refer to. In none of that work, limited as it is, is there any suggestion that differences in the gut microbiome would make vaccines more harmful.

    The preliminary and interesting results are that specific species missing from the gut microbiome can make some vaccines less effective at inducing immune responses.

  25. #25 Keith Bell
    June 12, 2015

    #416 shay, in the real world where vaccines are known to fail due to gut dysbiosis caused by poor sanitation:
    http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/370/1671/20140143

    Vaccine scientists know vaccines can’t work when confronted with intestines containing an imbalanced microbiome. A stark example is the sanitation-challenged developing world where there are no toilets and people defecate in fields. This open defecation leads to imbalanced flora and a compromised immune system where vaccines fail. Vaccines don’t stand a chance of working under such circumstances because microbes dictate our immune response.

  26. #26 Science Mom
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/
    June 12, 2015

    Vaccine scientists know vaccines can’t work when confronted with intestines containing an imbalanced microbiome. A stark example is the sanitation-challenged developing world where there are no toilets and people defecate in fields. This open defecation leads to imbalanced flora and a compromised immune system where vaccines fail. Vaccines don’t stand a chance of working under such circumstances because microbes dictate our immune response.

    And you not only know the exact species colonisation of inhabitants in third world countries but have missed hundreds if not thousands of studies which have demonstrated dramatic plunges in VPDs when vaccines are introduced. What vaccine scientists do you speak of and vaccines not working under “such circumstances” Belle?

  27. #27 ChrisP
    June 12, 2015

    Vaccine scientists know vaccines can’t work when confronted with intestines containing an imbalanced microbiome. A stark example is the sanitation-challenged developing world where there are no toilets and people defecate in fields. This open defecation leads to imbalanced flora and a compromised immune system where vaccines fail. Vaccines don’t stand a chance of working under such circumstances because microbes dictate our immune response.

    Ha Ha Ha Ha.

    Bloody hell you are an idiot, Keith.

    That is [b]oral vaccine[/b] failure, Keith. They refer specifically to this meta analysis:

    http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/210/6/853?ijkey=c02c6a2d92ed7e2da16d0d667c0efd20a09f0745&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

    “Concurrent NPEVs significantly reduced the odds of per-dose seroconversion for type 1 poliovirus (odds ratio [OR] 0.44, 95% confidence interval 0.23−0.84), but not type 2 (OR 0.53 [0.19−1.46]) or type 3 (OR 0.56 [0.27−1.12]). A similar reduction, significant for type 1 poliovirus (OR 0.50 [0.28−0.89]), was observed in the odds of vaccine virus shedding among NPEV-infected individuals. Concurrent diarrhea significantly inhibited per-dose seroconversion overall (OR 0.61 [0.38−0.87]).”

    No Sh!t Mr Bell.

    If you have diarrhea or a non-polio entero-virus infection, oral vaccines work less well than otherwise. If you understood how oral vaccines did their thing, the reasons would be obvious.

  28. #28 shay
    June 12, 2015

    shay, in the real world where vaccines are known to fail due to gut dysbiosis caused by poor sanitation

    Let us know if you ever make it out into the real world, Tink.

    Vaccines don’t stand a chance of working under such circumstances

    Have you ever been to India or the Philippines?

  29. #29 Narad
    June 12, 2015

    This open defecation leads to imbalanced flora and a compromised immune system

    Doesn’t this make Bellend some sort of biological terrorist on his own terms?

  30. #30 ann
    June 12, 2015

    @#415 —

    Certainly. I meant that the buzzword had the right stuff, not that KB’s use of it did.

  31. #31 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 12, 2015

    Narad #398, here’s more recent work about febrile seizure:
    “The results show that FS are associated with a systemic respiratory alkalosis, irrespective of the severity of the underlying infection as indicated by the level of fever.”
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2011.03259.x/abstract
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110912075652.htm

    People like Simpleton Mom still believe the cause of febrile seizure is fever.

  32. #32 Keith Bell
    June 12, 2015

    ChrisP, #427, the phenomenon also applies to parenteral vaccines:
    “Stool Microbiota and Vaccine Responses of Infants”
    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/134/2/e362.abstract

  33. #33 Keith Bell
    June 12, 2015

    I guess Orac is still watching the video in #410, scratching his ugly, sterile chin.

  34. #34 Science Mom
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/
    June 12, 2015

    People like Simpleton Mom still believe the cause of febrile seizure is fever.

    Poor Belle if only you could learn to read and comprehend your own citations. Neither had anything to do with vaccination and one just a layperson description of febrile seizure in spite of your claim that:

    Febrile seizures breakthrough even after fever is treated. And there’s also afebrile seizure, basically the same thing without fever. Both are gut-related where both fever and seizure are symptoms of gut dysbiosis, neurotransmitter imbalances and hyperactive immune response to vaccination:
    http://www.seizure-journal.com/article/S1059-1311(13)00106-4/fulltext#sec0020
    http://www.courant.com/consumer/hc-ls-kids-doctor-0531-20150529-story.html

  35. #35 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 12, 2015

    The fact is vaccines are a cause of febrile seizures which can and do lead to epilepsy.

    If some of my citations don’t include discussion of vaccination, it’s irrelevant because they are provided for clarification. The citation in #431 does include post-vaccination febrile seizure.

    Mom #426, there are several papers discussing vaccine failure due to poor sanitation/environmental enteropathy. This includes the polio vaccine. The question is, under such circumstances are vaccines also causing injury? It’s never been studied because vaccine scientists are not interested in safety as reflected by this callous group. Lowering VPDs is irrelevant; it’s not about relative risk. It’s about lowering vaccine injuries.

  36. #36 Science Mom
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/
    June 12, 2015

    The fact is vaccines are a cause of febrile seizures which can and do lead to epilepsy.

    Less than 1% according to your own cite. You know what causes the vast majority Belle? Which is of course completely contrary to your claim.

    If some of my citations don’t include discussion of vaccination, it’s irrelevant because they are provided for clarification. The citation in #431 does include post-vaccination febrile seizure.

    What a load of bollocks. You don’t provide irrelevant citations that have nothing to do with your claims for “clarification” you do that because you are a hand-waving, scientifically-illiterate tool.

    Mom #426, there are several papers discussing vaccine failure due to poor sanitation/environmental enteropathy. This includes the polio vaccine. The question is, under such circumstances are vaccines also causing injury? It’s never been studied because vaccine scientists are not interested in safety as reflected by this callous group. Lowering VPDs is irrelevant; it’s not about relative risk. It’s about lowering vaccine injuries.

    More bollocks. Your claim was complete vaccine failure and they can’t possibly work under those conditions. Except none of your cites supported that claim. That’s only your own over-active microbiome speaking. If it’s never been studied then how do you justify drawing definitive conclusions?

  37. #37 Chris
    June 12, 2015

    Mr. Bell: “The fact is vaccines are a cause of febrile seizures which can and do lead to epilepsy.”

    Please provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that show any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes more seizures than the disease.

    I see you posted an article titled “Respiratory alkalosis in children with febrile seizures.” It had a breakdown of the children had when they had the fevers and seizures: “In the FS group, the etiology of fever was respiratory tract infection (74.2%), otitis media (7%), GE (7%), tonsillitis (4.2%), scarlet fever (2.3%) chickenpox (1.4%), urinary tract infection (1.4%), postvaccination reaction (0.9%), or unidentified (1.4%). In all patients, capillary pH and blood Pco2 were measured immediately on admission to the hospital.”

    So post vaccine was less than one percent, and chicken pox was half again greater than that, and the vast majority were from a respiratory tract infection. So it looks like diseases cause much more febrile seizures than the vaccines.

    Therefor it is much safer to get the vaccine than to get the disease. This is from a citation that you posted.

  38. #38 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 12, 2015

    Chris and Mom, you’re both wholly unqualified to read the citation, much less lick my boots (good thing I don’t wear boots). The paper states febrile seizure post-vaccination took place in 0.9% of the population of 213 studied among other reasons for febrile seizure. It doesn’t say febrile seizure post- vaccination takes place in under 1% of the population.

    Febrile seizure is not uncommon. Vaccine-induced seizure including Infantile Spasm is probably far more common than we’re led to believe by the vaccine industry where as few as 1% of adverse events are even reported.

  39. #39 shay
    June 12, 2015

    It doesn’t say febrile seizure post- vaccination takes place in under 1% of the population.

    Tinker is wholly unqualified to read other people’s posts.

  40. #40 KayMarie
    June 12, 2015

    So if we just let all the kids who might get a seizure from a fever get them from free-range viruses how many kids would have problems?

    Because not vaccinate people does not ensure they cannot get a fever. After all fevers seem to be caused by illnesses and usually are more severe and last longer.

  41. #41 Chris
    June 12, 2015

    Mr. Bell, I know how to read and have taken enough advanced engineering mathematics to know that 1.4% is more than 0.9%. And I only have an undergraduate degree in engineering. Science Mom has a PhD, so she is obviously more qualified than both of us.

    Please provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that show any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes more seizures than the disease.

  42. #42 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    June 12, 2015

    Chris and Mom, you’re both wholly unqualified to read the citation, much less lick my boots

    Pot, meet Kettle.

  43. #43 Science Mom
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/
    June 12, 2015

    Chris and Mom, you’re both wholly unqualified to read the citation, much less lick my boots (good thing I don’t wear boots).

    That’s rich coming from an uneducated hump in the “sanitation” field. No one said anything about population Belle, it was purely in reference to your own citation which does not support your claim.

  44. #44 herr doktor bimler
    June 12, 2015

    Vaccine-induced seizure including Infantile Spasm is probably far more common than we’re led to believe

    When you have decided that “X is the case”, but there is no evidence to support X, just make stuff up.

  45. #45 Old Rockin' Dave
    Watching an untethered diving Bell slowly sink into the abyss...
    June 12, 2015

    “(good thing I don’t wear boots)” Yah, I bet walking barefoot through the garbage affects his gut flora causing it to do bizarre things to his brain.
    Really, Bell-oney seems to have three themes running through his comments: arrogance; weak attempts at Freudian psychology, especially weak since no one believes in Freud anymore; and an addiction to the thinnest of circumstantial “evidence’. Oh, and lest we forget, the fourth, intestinal microbiota.
    Since he likes to play Freud, let’s take a little look at him. Says Sigmund, “He vorks mit der refuse, und he iss obsessed mit der behavior und contents of ze colon. He iss definitely schtuck in der anal stage und zat is fitting because he iss ein immens Arschloch.”

  46. #46 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 18, 2015

    Dave, my heart goes out to you.

    bimler, #444, seizure post-vaccination is so common that it’s been removed from the list of compensable injuries:
    “”Before residual seizure disorder caused by DTP was removed from the list of compensable injuries, 1,713 claims were filed listing that problem. Of those, 654 received compensation totaling $480.9 million, according to the Health Resources and Services Administration.”
    http://www.post-gazette.com/business/legal/2010/10/11/Vaccine-makers-targeted-in-lawsuit/stories/201010110191
    http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/vaccinetable.html

    Orac the Sterile Weasel (OSW) left this conversation as quickly as he arrived. I’d like to see OSW try his hand writing a blog discrediting the microbiome related to vaccine injury. He’s not doing it because he’s remarkably unqualified.

  47. #47 MI Dawn
    June 18, 2015

    Uh, Keith. Have you done the research as to WHY the residual seizure disorder was removed? Like for instance, it was found most of the children compensated all had a syndrome that causes seizures (Dravets, IIRC). Also, DTP is NO LONGER GIVEN.

    Now, go away, do some proper research on cause and effect before you come back.

    And unlike you, Orac actually works hard for a living, between his surgery and his research. Why should he waste his time writing about your type of gut/brain fixation?

  48. #48 Lawrence
    June 18, 2015

    I’m wondering what qualifications Mr. Bell has to be speaking about immunology…..

  49. #49 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 18, 2015

    Dawn, Dravet accounts for only 2.5% of post-vaccination seizures. What about the other 97.5%? The problem is not limited to DPT.

    Lawrence, the vaccine industry completely disregards flora’s crucial role in immune response leading to vaccine injury. I’m wondering if you may be a gnotobiotic human. It’s obvious Orac is a gnotobiotic pig.

  50. #50 Lawrence
    June 18, 2015

    While I know what my own qualifications are to evaluate sound science, I have never seen you offer any credentials on your own level of expertise, Mr. Bell.

  51. #51 AdamG
    June 18, 2015

    flora’s crucial role in immune response leading to vaccine injury

    We’ve already established you have zero evidence that this is true. You have yet to produce a even single instance of a vaccine injury known to be caused by a gut microbiome-mediated predisposition. Remember your own citation concludes

    Such data will lead to an understanding of how and to what extent gut microbes can impact vaccine efficacy.

    He’s not doing it because he’s remarkably unqualified.

    Are you qualified? You’ve never even attempted to answer my questions at #405: Can you propose a specific experimental design for the study you wish the ‘vaccine industry’ would stop ignoring? Which vaccine would you study first? Why?

  52. #52 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 18, 2015

    Adam, it’s about missing protective microbes, a condition allowing vaccine injury. This new gnotobiotic pig paper illustrates the point where a probiotic adjuvant regulated immune response to rotavirus vaccination and protected against diarrhea:
    “Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG Dosage Affects the Adjuvanticity and Protection Against Rotavirus Diarrhea in Gnotobiotic Pigs.”
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25564808

    Since the rotavirus vaccine is known to cause intussusception (recently added to the list of compensable vaccine injuries), might this new paper indicate the probiotic reduced risk of injury? There are no studies because vaccine scientists, including the authors of this new paper refuse to study it (I know because I asked them to last year), instead focusing on vaccine response and developing new vaccines.
    http://www.livescience.com/42544-rotavirus-vaccine-side-effect-intussusception.html

  53. #53 MI Dawn
    June 18, 2015

    And your qualifications for MAKING your assertions?

    By the way: intussusception can happen spontaneously. The fact that the rotavirus *might* cause more cases than the baseline has not been established for the vaccines currently in use as far as I know.

    Why don’t you do the studies, since you are the person with bee in your bonnet?

  54. #54 JGC
    June 18, 2015

    Since the rotavirus vaccine is known to cause intussusception (recently added to the list of compensable vaccine injuries), might this new paper indicate the probiotic reduced risk of injury?:

    No, keith, it does not. It didn’t look at risk of vaccine injury at all.

    It instead looked at the effect of immunostimulatory strains of bacteria on vaccine immunogenicity.

  55. #55 herr doktor bimler
    June 18, 2015

    [Residual seizure disorder] post-vaccination is so common that it’s been removed from the list of compensable injuries:

    The absence of post-vaccination Alien Abduction from the list of compensable injuries proves JUST HOW OFTEN vaccinations result in alien abductions.

  56. #56 AdamG
    June 18, 2015

    Adam, it’s about missing protective microbes, a condition allowing vaccine injury.

    What evidence do you have that missing protective microbes ‘allows’ vaccine injury? That’s what I’m asking. The paper you cite has nothing to do with vaccine ‘injury’ but with vaccine efficacy. You do realize there’s a difference right?
    Earlier in this thread you stated

    That’s right, vaccines can cause SIDS.

    With that kind of certainty, why bother doing any studies at all then? You’re certain that there is evidence that ‘vaccine injury’ can be caused by microbial predisposition, but you also claim that vaccine scientists “refuse to study” this idea. You can’t have both. Is there sufficient evidence to conclude that metagenomic factors play a role in ‘vaccine injury,’ or, in the absence of such research, are we left with the null hypothesis that they simply don’t?

    I also note you complain a lot about scientists not doing research you find valuable, but you are unable to propose what they should instead investigate, and how they would go about doing it. You can continue ignoring my request to simply state which vaccine you would study first and why, but everyone here sees it’s clearly because you have no qualifications, and no idea how research is conducted.

  57. #57 herr doktor bimler
    June 18, 2015

    ”Before residual seizure disorder caused by DTP was removed from the list of compensable injuries, 1,713 claims were filed listing that problem
    I feel obliged to point out that Bell is deliberately confounding “residual seizure disorder” here, with any “post-vaccination seizures” in his #446 and #449.
    I hope that I never become so obsessive in the cause of pimping blog-posts that I turn into a chickensh1t bullsh1tter.

  58. #58 MI Dawn
    June 18, 2015

    My good herr doktor: I don’t think you would ever so that. And I also strongly suspect if you ever started, the good frau doktorin would kick your behind and then toss you to the minions (or feed you to Lord Draconis’ nestlings)

  59. #59 Barefoot
    Zombie - proof fortification, watching reruns of Contagion, WWZ, I Am Legend...
    June 18, 2015

    #455 The absence of post-vaccination Alien Abduction from the list of compensable injuries proves JUST HOW OFTEN vaccinations result in alien abductions

    Herr Doktor Bimler –

    I think you are onto something here as the two newest additions to the anti 277 bandwagon seem to have had such experiences…no doubt, the revolutionary breakthrough in the science paradigm AoA has been waiting for…

  60. #60 Old Rockin' Dave
    June 20, 2015

    Bellboy, I have a suggestion for you. You obviously like to wade through tedious scientific papers and try to synthesize new hypotheses from what you’ve read. Go back to school, get a degree in one of the sciences and find a lab that does real science and will let you follow your intestinal floral dreams.
    Thank you for your heart going out to me. My colon goes out to you.

  61. #61 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 20, 2015

    Adam, thanks for your efforts to understand the hypothesis and acknowledging gaping holes in vaccine science:

    1) How childhood vaccines may affect flora balance and colonization, and

    2) How existing flora (microbial predisposition) may affect vaccine response leading to injury.

    Vaccine scientists know how to test these theories. I’ve provided examples using gnotobiotic pigs.

  62. #62 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    June 20, 2015

    Adam, thanks for your efforts to understand the hypothesis and acknowledging gaping holes in vaccine science

    If you genuinely believe that, and are not trying to pull some type of lame “psyche!” game on Adam, you’re even more of a fool than I first thought.
    Just a general note to everyone: I’m taking an exam on the 20th July, so until then I’ll be studying hard and you won’t see me comment. This is just to let you know, so that you don’t get worried that I’ve passed away like lilady. 🙂

  63. #63 shay
    June 20, 2015

    …you’re even more of a fool than I first thought.

    Given Tinker’s track record in reading comprehension, it’s possible.

  64. #64 MI Dawn
    June 20, 2015

    Good luck, Julian! I’ll be taking a big exam (prep permitting), in October.

  65. #65 Dangerous Bacon
    June 20, 2015

    What happens when gnotobiotic pigs are given MMS enemas by people wearing latex gloves?

  66. #66 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 21, 2015

    Better to add life™, Bacon. As a sterile pig yourself, you might do well with a probiotic enema, the next best thing to fecal transplant to address colonic imbalance. The small intestine is another matter, perhaps best addressed orally (there’s always the option of intranasal fecal transplant).

  67. #67 Chris
    June 21, 2015

    Mr. Bell, why do you think insults are a valid substitute for actual evidence?

    Now where are those PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that show any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more seizures than the diseases?

  68. #68 Old Rockin' Dave
    On the march with the Sixth Column...
    June 22, 2015

    Some would advise us not to underestimate Bell-oney.
    I agree. He’s impossible to underestimate.

  69. #69 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    June 22, 2015

    Keith Bell,

    Suppose I were the parent of a young child getting set to travel internationally. What steps should I take to adjust my child’s microbiota in order to prevent any harm from local diseases? How would that advice change between going to, say, Southeast Asia, Africa, or Northern Europe? How could I test my child to know whether his/her/its microbiome was properly tuned? Suppose the polio vaccine is a legal requirement for travel – what adjustments are required for my child’s microbiome? Are those the same adjustments as those needed to be healthy in these different areas, or something different? How do you know?

    Thanks.

  70. #70 Old Rockin' Dave
    On the road again... well, at least I'm walking the dog.
    June 23, 2015

    I’m not worried about microbiota. I figure that my immune system and my digestive tract know their jobs better than I, or any other person, can, and I prefer to leave them get on with it as much as I safely can.

  71. #71 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 24, 2015

    O’Brien, brilliant questions. If it’s possible to “tune” a microbiome to protect against vaccine injury, wouldn’t that be great? In the meantime, vaccines appear to be injuring not just children with poor microbial predisposition, but also children with natural flora balance based on ancestral diet, i.e. Africans with high Bacteroides.

    We should know when NOT to vaccinate based on flora balance, i.e., preterm infants and newborns from maternal and gestational diabetic mothers associated with autism.

    Dave prefers his head in the sand. Old Ostrich Dave. Orac prefers his head up his own sterile ass. How’s that for insolence?

  72. #72 shay
    June 24, 2015

    Since you have singularly failed to provide any corroboration to your delusions on this topic, it’s clear that you’re the one in rectal defilade, Tinker.

  73. #73 AdamG
    June 24, 2015

    vaccines appear to be injuring not just children with poor microbial predisposition

    You still have not presented a single example of this.
    Which vaccine? What injury? Which microbes?

  74. #74 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 24, 2015

    I’ve given plenty of examples, Adam. Please review this one again where MMR leads to amplified antibody response in African Americans due to naturally high levels of Bacteroides leading to autism:
    http://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-discovers-african-americans-respond-better-to-rubella-vaccine/
    (this is also the link Orac refuses to respond to regarding personalized vaccines, coward that he is)

    And, as discussed previously, it’s also about reduced or absent protective microbes such as Bifidobacteria, Lactobacillus and protective strains of Clostridia. Proteobacteria are found high in maternal and gestational diabetes correlated with microbes in meconium, likely dysregulating immune response in any number of childhood vaccines, never before studied.

  75. #75 Chris
    June 24, 2015

    Mr. Bell: “high levels of Bacteroides leading to autism:”

    Not mentioned in the linked article. You are still just making stuff up.

  76. #76 Lawrence
    June 24, 2015

    Keith appears to be smoking his own dope….because what he posted doesn’t support his statement at all.

  77. #77 Delphine
    June 24, 2015

    Good luck, Julian!

    Take a seat, Keith.

  78. #78 herr doktor bimler
    June 24, 2015

    I’m not worried about microbiota. I figure that my immune system and my digestive tract know their jobs better than I, or any other person, can, and I prefer to leave them get on with it as much as I safely can.

    Old Rockin’ Dave is not a REAL MURKIN:

    “Americans have a special horror of giving up control, of letting things happen in their own way without interference. They would like to jump down into their own stomachs and digest the food and shovel the shit out.”

  79. #79 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 24, 2015

    High Bacteroides tied to autism severity: http://www.bacteriaandautism.com/PDF/Pyrosequencingstudy.pdf

    There are no studies about how microbes affect immune response for any of the childhood vaccines. Might this explain the mystery Dr. Poland of the Mayo Clinic describes where Somalis react with twice the antibodies to rubella vaccination? http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1271/bbb.80612?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%3dpubmed

  80. #80 AdamG
    June 24, 2015

    Keith, in your own words, how would you describe the difference between vaccine efficacy and vaccine injury?

    You posted a press release that accompanied the release of this article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24530932
    (Ask yourself Keith, would you have been able to find this on your own?)
    Remember, you claimed this press release showed

    MMR leads to amplified antibody response in African Americans due to naturally high levels of Bacteroides leading to autism

    How can this possibly be true when the actual journal article does not even contain the words ‘autism’ or ‘Bacteroides’?

  81. #81 AdamG
    June 24, 2015

    High Bacteroides tied to autism severity

    Oh Keith, you’re adorable. If you had actually bothered to read the articles you use as evidence for your fantasy you would have seen that the severe autism cases had lower Bacteroidetes (which you continue to misspell, hilariously) than the mild autism cases (51.248% vs. 51.591%).

  82. #82 brian
    June 24, 2015

    The major problem with Feingold’s work over the years has been that he has seemingly attempted to attribute developmental changes that clearly begin long before birth to changes in the microflora that occur long after birth. That approach made at least some sense before the evidence emerged that he was months or years too late.

  83. #83 herr doktor bimler
    June 24, 2015

    The major problem with Feingold’s work over the years

    For me, the major problem with Feingold’s work is that every time he publishes a result, it contradicts all his previous results. The #1 person for refuting Feingold’s claims is in fact Feingold.

  84. #84 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 24, 2015

    brian, flora develops in the womb before birth, as well. Meconium isn’t sterile. It’s how vaccines interact with flora present that leads to injury.

    Bacteroides are a genus in the phylum of Bacteroidetes. The paper states:
    “Bacteroides vulgatus are present in
    significantly higher numbers in stools of severely autistic children than in controls.”

    “The Bacteroides genus, in particular, is an obvious indication of the change that occurs from autistic to sibling and control children.”

    Adam, there are no papers addressing my hypothesis, so you won’t find a single paper incorporating all the factors. But I have published 6 articles on the subject of microbial predisposition and vaccine injury.

  85. #85 AdamG
    June 24, 2015

    there are no papers addressing my hypothesis

    If you’re absolutely convinced something is true, it’s not a hypothesis anymore. Can you propose a study that would investigate this hypothesis? What would the results look like if your hypothesis is true? What would they look like if it wasn’t?

    I have published 6 articles

    Are they peer reviewed? Nope. Why not submit one to Vaccine and see what happens?

  86. #86 Old Rockin' Dave
    June 24, 2015

    Hey, old Bell-ybutton, the article you cite ( http://www.bacteriaandautism.com/PDF/Pyrosequencingstudy.pdf) is about a study done in children already diagnosed with autism spectrum conditions and appears to show correlation between the “severity” of their condition and the composition of gut flora.
    1) As an autism expert that I know told me, trying to rank autistic people as more or less “severe” is largely subjective and criteria can be somewhat arbitrary. There are often concurrent conditions which may not be assessible (Is that a word?) due to poor communication skills.
    2) Since the autists were diagnosed before entering the study, a post-hoc propter-hoc fallacy might be at work. In other words, did autism result from the status of their gut flora, or the other way around?
    3) People with complex and disabling autism often have limited and skewed diets due to food aversions. This may be reflected in their gut flora.
    4) Since you appear never to have gotten past the title, here is the last sentence in the abstract: “If the unique microbial flora is found to be a causative or consequent factor in this type of autism, it may have implications with regard to a specific diagnostic test, its epidemiology, and for treatment and prevention.” In other words the authors make my second point for me, don’t know the significance of their findings yet, and can’t say for sure if their results will be replicated.
    5) They take the increased prevalence of autism as a given, without sourcing that claim, while there are other factors in play other than an actual increase in cases for an increase in reported cases.
    6) I think you need to have your gut flora studied. It should be easy; they only need to swab your mustache.

  87. #87 brian
    June 24, 2015

    @484
    Is there any evidence to suggest that the differences in postnatal gut microflora that Finegold describes long after birth influence neurodevelopment early in the second trimester of pregnancy? I might have missed that (it’s been a few years since I slogged through Finegold’s papers as I sought to explain to a colleague why I thought that, back in the days of Finegold’s vancomyicin study, his premise was clearly wrong) but I doubt that, and I really (really) don’t think that there’s any there, there. Meanwhile, Sydney seems to have abandoned his apparently failed hypothesis.

  88. #88 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 25, 2015

    brian, there’s this 2012 paper detailing a natural shift in maternal flora toward a diabetic state in the third trimester which is when the fetal brain triples in weight:
    http://www.nature.com/news/pregnancy-alters-resident-gut-microbes-1.11118
    http://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(12)00829-X?_returnURL=http%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS009286741200829X%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

    Meconium studies reveal the maternal microbiome finds its way to the fetal GI tract which likely drives fetal brain development with omega-3 fatty acids of microbial origin:
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0078257
    http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/pr5011857

    Of course, Dave was born meconium-free. Love ya, Dave!

  89. #89 AdamG
    June 25, 2015

    which likely drives fetal brain development

    Which of the papers you posted has anything to do with fetal brain development? Not a single one. From what evidence are you concluding that maternal microbiome “likely drives fetal brain development?”

  90. #90 JGC
    June 25, 2015

    Keith,your first two cites yoo offer no evidence that gut microbiota affects immune response for any of the childhood vaccines–that is the hypothesis you;’re trying to defend, isn’t it? The instead report that pregnancy affects expectant mothers’ gut microbiota.

    The third cite also ofers no evidence that gut microbiota affects immune response for any of the childhood vaccines, instead noting simply that the fetal meconium differs significantly from the maternal gut micorbiome (lower species diversity, higher sample-to-sample variation) but is enriched enriched for the same bacterial taxa reported in the fecal microbiome of adult DM patients.

    Neither the third or fourth cite provided any evidence that “maternal microbiome finds its way to the fetal GI tract” or “likely drives fetal brain development with omega-3 fatty acids of microbial origin”.

    Maybe next time read and understand the publications–what teh authors found and what cocnlusions they derive from their observation–before citing them?

  91. #91 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 25, 2015

    Adam, the idea that the fetal gut drives fetal brain development is derived from the fact that:
    “Normal gut microbiota modulates brain development and behavior”
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3041077/

    Jesus G. Christ, is your head made of wood? Try putting your asinine comments in context of the discussion. I was addressing brian’s excellent question, obviously.

    Moreover, gut microbiota affecting immune response in vaccination is already firmly established. Quite simply, vaccine response depends on microbes present. What’s disregarded is how this response may lead to vaccine injury.

  92. #92 Keith Bell
    June 25, 2015

    Also, the third citation does indeed provide evidence the maternal microbiome finds its way to the fetal GI tract, stating:

    “It also suggests that the meconium microbiome of infants born to mothers with DM is enriched for the same bacterial taxa as those reported in the fecal microbiome of adult DM patients.”

    This is something you quoted in your reply, JGC, without understanding the ramifications.

  93. #93 MI Dawn
    June 25, 2015

    Uh..Keith….”suggests” is NOT the same as “providing evidence”. It also does not prove the maternal microbiome finds its way to the fetal GI tract; it basically is saying that the increased glucose in the mother’s blood, that is available to the baby, makes it more possible for certain bacteria to grow over other bacteria, similar to what happens to the mother.

    Have you ever studied embryology?

  94. #94 JGC
    June 25, 2015

    My apologies if I misidentified the hypothesis you were trying to defend: I’ll amend my response as necessary:

    Keith,your first two cites offer no evidence that [the fetal gut drives fetal brain development ]. They instead report that pregnancy affects expectant mothers’ gut microbiota.

    The third cite also ofers no evidence that [the fetal gut drives fetal brain development] instead noting simply that the fetal meconium differs significantly from the maternal gut micorbiome (lower species diversity, higher sample-to-sample variation) but is enriched enriched for the same bacterial taxa reported in the fecal microbiome of adult DM patients.

    Neither the third or fourth cite provided any evidence that “maternal microbiome finds its way to the fetal GI tract” or “likely drives fetal brain development with omega-3 fatty acids of microbial origin”.

    Maybe next time read and understand the publications–what the authors found and what conslusions they derive from their observations–before citing them?

    That better, Keith?

  95. #95 AdamG
    June 25, 2015

    Oh please. brian’s question was

    Is there any evidence to suggest that the differences in postnatal gut microflora that Finegold describes long after birth influence neurodevelopment early in the second trimester of pregnancy

    The paper you cite compares development between normal mice and Germ Free mice. Again, you have no evidence that shifts in microbial content associated with pregnancy have anything whatsoever to do with ‘vaccine injury’

  96. #96 JGC
    June 25, 2015

    Also, the third citation does indeed provide evidence the maternal microbiome finds its way to the fetal GI tract

    No, it does not: it simply states “the meconium microbiome of infants born to mothers with DM is enriched for the same bacterial taxa as those reported in the fecal microbiome of adult DM patients”.

    Nowhere do the authors suggest or demonstrate the observed enrichment is due to maternal microbiome finding its way to the fetal GI tract.

  97. #97 AdamG
    June 25, 2015

    Moreover, gut microbiota affecting immune response in vaccination is already firmly established. Quite simply, vaccine response depends on microbes present. What’s disregarded is how this response may lead to vaccine injury.

    So, to review, here’s your ‘model’:
    A. Efficacy of certain vaccines may to some extent be determined by gut microbiome
    B. Mice raised without any gut microflora at all have slightly different behaviors
    Therefore, vaccines can cause SIDS.
    Please feel free to fill in the blanks, but try to spare us the copious hand-waving and oblique references to the ‘gut-brain connection’
    You still haven’t told us which vaccine the ‘vaccine scientists’ should be studying, by the way. You must have ideas about this! You wrote a whole 6 blog posts about it!

  98. #98 JGC
    June 25, 2015

    Moreover, gut microbiota affecting immune response in vaccination is already firmly established.

    Hardly ‘firmly’ established keith, if you’re basing this claim on your cite @355.

  99. #99 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 25, 2015

    Dawn #493, it’s not about glucose, but it may be about glycans regulated by genes. Have you ever studied glycobiology?

    But it’s a moot point you’re making since the microbes in meconium are of maternal origin. That’s microbial predisposition. The Sterile Womb Paradigm is obsolete. And we have the nerve to vaccinate within 12 hours of birth in complete disregard of microbial regulation of vaccine response.

  100. #100 Old Rockin' Dave
    Last house on the left...
    June 26, 2015

    Bell-icose’s attempts to push his idea, which is too weak to even honor with the word “hypothesis”, reminds me of the classic Sidney Harris cartoon. Two men stand in front of a blackboard. Equations cover the left and right sides of the board. In the center are the words “Then a miracle happens”. One of the men is saying, “I think you need to be more specific in step two.” The only validation he can give appears to be, “I want it to be that way, so it is.” Hanging on to a pet idea long after it sputters to a halt and dies is not a good sign.

  101. #101 Old Rockin' Dave
    Accepting my No-Bell Prize...
    June 26, 2015

    I don’t know if anyone is still following the comments here, but this is interesting news. Nigeria, the last place in Africa has not had a known case of polio for months, after a massive government effort to vaccinate the children in the last pockets of the disease. If they can go another 12 months without any new cases, then all of Africa will be declared free of polio. This was accomplished with oral vaccine, which appears to have worked no matter what intestinal microbiota people across the continent had.

  102. #102 Keith Bell
    United States
    June 26, 2015

    brian, #487, here’s some hot-off-the-press news about the second trimester diet associated with preterm birth:
    “Maternal Dietary Patterns during the Second Trimester Are Associated with Preterm Birth.”
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26084362

    Of course, Dave doesn’t believe diet plays a role in gut flora balance, mainly because he’s gutless. But the fact is preterm birth is associated with high levels of Gammaproteobacteria because flora is tied to gestational age.

    This new paper will hopefully reverse current barbaric vaccine protocol to vaccinate preterm infants weighing only 2.2 lbs. as if they were full term. Is there any wonder why preterm infants suffer high risk of autism?
    “Adverse Events After Routine Immunization of Extremely Low-Birth-Weight Infants”
    http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2300376&utm_source=silverchair+information+systems&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=jamapediatrics%253aonlinefirst06%252f01%252f2015

    “Prevalence and neonatal factors associated with autism spectrum disorders in preterm infants.”
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24161222

    Anyone here interested in vaccine safety? Certainly not Orac the Sterile™. He’d rather mock the injured.

  103. #103 Mrs Woo
    June 26, 2015

    Still following comments, Dave. Didn’t the U.S. have a measles free year? So frustrating.

    Comments in the LA Times about SB277 passage tend to run mostly from antivaxxersantivaxxers.

  104. #104 MI Dawn
    June 26, 2015

    Keith – there is no such scientific study as “glycobiology”. and yes, I have studied physiology. It was a required course for nursing.

    As for your adverse events link – Extremely low birthweight infants, JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE EXTREMELY LOW BIRTHWEIGHT, tend to have more adverse events to everything. They are HIGH RISK babies. They can have adverse events from breathing, eating, just being alive, either due to severe prematurity or severe intrauterine growth delay.

    If I recall correctly, you linked to that article before and were educated about it.

    Please, do some actual research about the risks that ANY premature infant faces. If you haven’t done any neonatology studying, you know nothing about high risk newborns.

    You are so fixated on the gut, you don’t know about the rest of the human body!

  105. #105 JGC
    June 26, 2015

    Yes, Keith: pre-term delivery does appear to be associated with increased likelihood of exhibiting an ASD, and increased incidence of adverse events after routine immunization does appear to occur in ELBW infants.
    If either of these were claims you’ve been asked to defend your post @502 would have been on target.

    But that isn”t the case, is it?

  106. #106 Old Rockin' Dave
    Couldn't find the Matterhorn, climbing the Energyhorn instead.
    June 26, 2015

    You did it again, Bell-less wonder. You somehow always manage to hit the nail right on your thumb. Nowhere did I say I don’t believe diet plays a role in gut flora. You are trying to change the subject to disguise the fact that you are holding a busted flush. The polio vaccine goes on working in Africa among dozens of nations and hundreds or even thousands of ethnic groups living in nearly every conceivable environment except alpine and arctic, and living on a vast variety of diets. It doesn’t seem to know how important gut flora is. You should save your indignation for reality, which apparently hasn’t heard your brilliant hypothesis.
    Meanwhile, you haven’t offered up the slightest whisper of a trace of a hint of a ghost of an inference of an intimation of a guess that vaccines cause autism, which was the sand your house of cards was built on, and everything else you have said since then has been octopus ink. Shame on us for letting you get away with that.
    (I surely love my mixed metaphors.)

  107. #107 Narad
    June 26, 2015

    increased incidence of adverse events after routine immunization does appear to occur in ELBW infants

    Note one definition:

    “The primary outcome measured was sepsis evaluation (blood culture obtained).”

    One might wonder what proportion included lumbar puncture; naively, it doesn’t sound like that serious an adverse event otherwise.

  108. #108 shay
    June 26, 2015

    Dave — you forgot scintilla!

  109. #109 Old Rockin' Dave
    Done with the Matterhorn and Energyhorn, now doing the Mindhorn...
    June 27, 2015

    shay, you’re right. Thanks.
    Friends, please amend in your minds the relevant sentence above to include scintilla, as per shay. Also include atom, iota, dot, fragment, speck, monad, homeopathic 100C dilution, Keith Bell’s brain, and Higgs boson.
    I may add more when I recover from the torrent of Bellsh*t that has rained on this page.

  110. #110 Old Rockin' Dave
    June 27, 2015

    I just saw this and thought of this thread:
    http://xkcd.com/1543/#

  111. […] the AutismOne (known for promoting dubious “cures” for autism) conference in May, the Illinois Attorney General, […]

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