Poor Andy Wakefield.

Beginning in the late 1990s until around six years ago, Andy was the premiere “vaccine skeptic” in the world. His 1998 case series published in The Lancet linking bowel problems in autistic children to the measles vaccine, the one where in the paper itself he was careful not to blame the MMR vaccine for autism but elsewhere was not so shy, launched a campaign of fear and loathing for the MMR vaccine that continues to this day. In his heyday, Wakefield was quite the figure, showing up on the media everywhere, treated with undeserved respect by much of the tabloid press and downright reverence by the antivaccine movement. (Indeed, Age of Autism founder J.B. Handley once famously referred to Wakefield as our “Nelson Mandela and Jesus Christ rolled up into one.” Of course, thanks largely to the efforts of Brian Deer, the wheels came off a five years ago. That year, Wakefield lost his license to practice and his (in)famous case series in The Lancet was retracted, as it had been demonstrated rather conclusively that Wakefield had committed scientific fraud in that study. Even the antivaccine quack mill Thoughtful House, where Wakefield had reigned supreme as chief antivaccine autism quack couldn’t take it any more, and its board of directors rather unceremoniously gave him the boot.

Of couse, since then, Wakefield has done pretty well for himself, remaining a figurehead adored by credulous antivaccine activists, a veritable hero. He was still flown to antivaccine conferences in nice hotels in places like Jamaica. He still manages to live quite a comfortable lifestyle, in part thanks to the generosity of of the deep pockets behind the antivaccine movement, as reported by CNN, in part thanks to his Strategic Autism Initiative. Another times, he exploited the tragedy of the murder of an autistic boy, Alex Spourdalakis, in a most shameful fashion.

So, two days ago, when I saw this story, I couldn’t believe it:

Andrew Wakefield, the British researcher who was made famous by his 1998 study that linked autism to a childhood vaccine, is coming to Salem next month to testify before the Legislature, a health care lobbyist confirmed Tuesday.

The Senate Committee on Health Care is exploring a bill, sponsored by Sen. Elizabeth Steiner Hayward, D-Beaverton, that would ban parents from claiming nonmedical exemptions from their children’s school immunizations.

By the time I saw the story, it was too late to blog about it for yesterday; so I put it in the hopper for today. However, two days ago, I did blog about the Oregon bill to which the article refers. The bill, SB442, was originally intended to clarify the procedure for parents to get non-medical exemptions to school vaccine mandates. However, in the wake of the Disneyland measles outbreak consideration was being given to amending the bill to eliminate non-medical exemptions altogether. As I pointed out, the very fact that a state like Oregon, which is a hotbed of antivaccine activity (J. B. Handley, for instance, lives there) would even consider such a bill, is a sea change in attitude in the wake of continuing measles outbreaks.

Of course, antivaccine activists weren’t going to take this lying down, and they didn’t. J.B. Handley, for instance, submitted testimony to the Oregon Senate Committee on Health Care on February 18. Not surprisingly, he pulled out the same old tropes that I’ve seen him using over the decade that I’ve been blogging and since I first encountered him: “too many too soon“; argument by package insert; the pharma shill gambit; and, of course, the antivaccine dog whistle that ties vaccine “choice” to parental rights and freedom.

Still, I couldn’t understand why on earth anyone would think that tarting up old, discredited Andy Wakefield, flying him up to Oregon, and plopping him in front of the Senate Committee on Health Care would serve the cause of “vaccine choice.” I mean, seriously. Is there any “vaccine skeptic” currently more discredited than Andrew Wakefield in the mind of the public? Sure, there are actually more despicable antivaccinationists, but few people have heard of them. Wakefield, on the other hand, is famous, but he’s famous because he’s a discredited fraud who did antivaccine research for money. Brian Deer showed us that. And there are many victims. I know that Wakefield’s visit was arranged by the Oregon Chiropractic Association, but I didn’t think that even chiropractors were so deluded to think that a discredited fraud like Wakefield would help their case. In fact, when I first heard of the story, I was almost happy. The more quacks and cranks antivaccinationists trotted in front of the committee, the better. What better way for them to shoot themselves in the foot, to self-immolate? I was even thinking of suggesting more cranks to testify, such as Mark and David Geier or Christopher Shaw. Heck, why not get Sharyl Attkisson?

Oh, wait. I had heard it through the grapevine that others scheduled to testify included Tetyana Obukhanyeh, PhD., and Lucija Tomljenovic, PhD.

Sadly, my anticipation of the spectacle of Andrew Wakefield testifying was not to be. Yesterday, many of you sent my way this story:

Oregon legislators have canceled a meeting to discuss a bill that would eliminate nonmedical exemptions from Oregon’s school immunization law, after it became clear that a controversial vaccine researcher who linked the measles, mumps, rubella vaccine with autism was planning to testify.

The Statesman Journal reported Tuesday that Andrew Wakefield, whose 1998 study was retracted from The Lancet and refuted by subsequent studies, was planning a trip to Salem to testify against Senate Bill 442.

He said in a phone interview on Wednesday that he objected to allegations made by Sen. Elizabeth Steiner Hayward, the bill’s sponsor, that he committed scientific fraud in his research.

Sen. Laurie Monnes Anderson, D-Gresham, chairwoman of the Senate health care committee, said she canceled the March 9 informational meeting because she felt the first public hearing, on Feb. 18, provided enough information.

Poor, poor pitiful Andy! He’s so toxic that the very mention of his potentially showing up to testify can shut down a legislative committee informational meeting. I don’t believe it for a minute when Anderson claimed:

Monnes Anderson said her decision did not have anything to do with Wakefield’s intentions to testify.

The March 9 meeting will only take invited testimony from constitutional law experts who will weigh in on the legality of SB 442, she said. During a work session, committee members can tweak the bill as well as vote on it.

Come on. Does Anderson really think her constituents are that stupid? Maybe she does. In any case, I’m torn by this decision. On the one hand, it would have been grand entertainment to see Andy trotted out in front of the committee to spew his usual brand of antivaccine misinformation, and I bet that he would not have been particularly impressive, old fraudster that Deer showed him to be. In fact, I rather suspect he would have inadvertently helped the cause of eliminating non-medical exemptions in Oregon. After all, what better weapon would those supporting the bill have than to be able to attach the name of someone as disreputable as Andrew Wakefield to opposition to SB442? On the other hand, there would have been a chance that letting him testify would have actually elevated him, made him less disreputable. In any event, my guess is that Anderson saw that letting Wakefield testify would turn her committee’s “informational event” into a media circus. No, strike that. It would have turned it into a circus. So she wisely canceled, because Wakefield is just that toxic.

My only consolation in this is that antivaccinationists seem to be their own worst enemies. As I said before, anyone with an ounce of political savvy would have realized that letting someone like Andrew Wakefield testify, someone who is (1) famous, (2) discredited, and (3) highly disreputable, testify is the same thing as putting his face on the opposition. There’s no way this could have ended well for antivaccinationists. In fact, the chiropractors and antivaccine “health freedom” types who pushed to get Wakefield on the list of people giving testimony should thank Monnes Anderson profusely for saving themelves from themselves.

They won’t, of course, They are just that deluded as to believe that having Wakefield’s chance to testify yanked hurt them. But, hey, according to news reports, Wakefield wants to hold a town hall meeting in Portland. Somehow, I doubt that will go very well, either. After all, remember what happened the last time Wakefield tried to have a “town hall” meeting to protest to what he viewed as a pro-vaccine provocation. “Pitiful” doesn’t begin to describe it.

Comments

  1. #1 Keith Bell
    April 9, 2015

    “1. Please provide a reference for “co2 deficiency due to imbalanced flora dysregulating the serotonergic system.””

    There are none I’m aware of, that’s my theory. Thanks for asking.

    “2. Please be specific as to what you propose fatal event is in your model of SIDS.”

    The “respiratory cause of death” in SIDS is about the brain turning off the heart via dysregulation of cardiac vagal neurons and parasympathetic activity to the heart. It’s not about respiratory acidosis.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3215848/
    http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/100/5/483.full

    This dynamic was illustrated in the news a couple days ago:
    “researchers induced cardiac arrest in rats by having them breathe carbon dioxide”
    http://www.livescience.com/50389-cardiac-arrest-dying-brain-signals.html

  2. #2 Keith Bell
    United States
    April 9, 2015

    Two comments now in moderation. capnkrunch, here’s a reference regarding request #1:

    Given diabetes associated with SIBO, hypocapnia caused brain damage:
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/pedi.12114/abstract
    (brain cell swelling is consequence of excitotoxicity)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20085122

    Thanks for inspiring research.

  3. #3 Politicalguineapig
    April 9, 2015

    “Research” being code for rectally sourced, but everyone probably knows that by now.

  4. #4 Keith Bell
    United States
    April 10, 2015

    pig, I suggest you grab the next opportunity to eat a placenta for the serotonin and other brain chemicals produced:
    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/mothers-who-eat-a-newborn-s-placenta-may-or-may-not-benefit/
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3632750/
    http://www.newsweek.com/placenta-eating-mothers-face-witch-hunt-trend-takes-315185

    And if it’s a good placenta, you’ll also receive probiotic therapy. People here is Orac World™ need to know placentas aren’t sterile.

  5. #5 Narad
    April 11, 2015

    What I stated was CO2 imbalances affect the serotonergic system leading to glutamate excitoxicity and SIDS. This could mean either high or low CO2.

    It just gets better and better as Bellend, to whom I shall herewith refer as “Meatotomy,” starts blowing gaskets. Let’s review again:

    Are you constipated? This leads to serotonin deficiency and glutamate excitotoxicity. Please don’t sleep in the face-down prone position to avoid stimulation of the serotonergic sytstem by CO2 and cardiac arrest.

    —–

    I’m more concerned about serotonin deficiency than surplus since it’s correlated with SIDS and constipation.

    —–

    I’m more concerned about CO2 deficiency due to imbalanced flora dysregulating the serotonergic system. Perhaps it’s not a matter of CO2 of gut origin, but lack of CO2. Microbes use CO2 to make other things. capn, have you ever heard of CO2 used to immediately halt seizure suggesting deficiency?

    Similarly, serotonin deficiency in [sic] linked with SIDS and constipation (95% of our serotonin is intestinal):
    h[]tp://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=185314

    “We hypothesize that TPH2 levels are reduced in the medullary 5-HT system for as-yet unknown developmental, genetic, and/or environmental reasons, with a secondary reduction in 5-HT levels and impaired 5-HT neurotransmission.[33] We further propose that insufficient 5-HT levels early in development, potentially as early as the first or second trimester, result in a compensatory increase in immature 5-HT neurons with immature (decreased) 5-HT1A binding and 5-HT transporter levels.[34]”

    Yes, this was proffered on the juxtaposition of two words in the title.

    You still can’t read, Meato, which I suppose is why you opted for more of the usual – which might be summarized as being so unable to keep your shіt straight that you can’t identify internal contradictions – rather than addressing this.

  6. #6 capnkrunch
    April 11, 2015

    Keith Bell
    Unfortunately, I won’t have time to do a proper reply until at least Monday. Narad did a good job already though. In the meantime there’s some very low hanging fruit I can’t help but pick.

    The “respiratory cause of death” in SIDS is about the brain turning off the heart via dysregulation of cardiac vagal neurons and parasympathetic activity to the heart. It’s not about respiratory acidosis.

    I see your references aren’t the only things you misrepresent. Remember how I kept harping on CO2 only being relevant because it is an indicator of respiratory failure and primary respiratory driver? Apparently not. Respiratory failure doesn’t kill because of the acidosis, it’s because of a lack of oxygen supply to the heart and brain. I never argued otherwise.

    http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/100/5/483.full

    Once again you bring up this study about CAD and serotonin. I can’t imagine why except that earlier you used the words “cardiac” and “serotonin” together and this study also contains both those words. Atherosclerosis is essentially a non-issue for infants (there may be some rare congenital issues that cause it but I am unaware of any). Also, it has nothing to do with your “argument”. The fact that you have brought this study up not once but twice shows a level of ignorance that is absolutely astonishing. That alone should be enough to discredit you entirely among any group of reasonable people.

    This dynamic was illustrated in the news a couple days ago:
    “researchers induced cardiac arrest in rats by having them breathe carbon dioxide”

    Didn’t we already talk about how it’s generally good practice to link to Pubmed not articles? Asphyxia-activated corticocardiac signaling accelerates onset of cardiac arrest. First sentence:

    The mechanism by which the healthy heart and brain die rapidly in the absence of oxygen is not well understood.

    Ok, I get it now. You didn’t link there because it actually doesn’t do anything to further your argument. Just the title and first sentence make it abundantly clear that both the cause of death and what is being studied is lack of oxygen, not hypercarbia.

  7. #7 Keith Bell
    April 11, 2015

    I’m siding with environmental reasons re: ASIC1a as Dravet Syndrome accounts for only 2.5% of seizures post vaccination:
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065758

    Narad, if you’re female, I’m quite interested. Denice, you’re invited to join us twice weekly, of course. I’ll learn more about ASIC1a, muchas gracias, not that I haven’t seen it before, but it definitely deserves more attention.

  8. #8 Krebiozen
    April 11, 2015

    Keith Bell,

    I’m siding with environmental reasons re: ASIC1a as Dravet Syndrome accounts for only 2.5% of seizures post vaccination:

    I think you have misunderstood yet another paper. Vaccination may lead to a fever that may trigger febrile seizures in some children, just as a fever from any cause may do. Since vaccinations dramatically reduce the incidence of fevers, by preventing diseases like measles, mumps and rubella, they also reduce the incidence of febrile seizures. Vaccination does not cause Dravet Syndrome or any other seizure disorder, as the paper you cited makes very clear. Dravet Syndrome makes febrile seizures more likely, including seizures after vaccination, so parents may wrongly attribute continuing seizures to vaccination instead of to Dravet Sydrome.

  9. #9 Politicalguineapig
    April 11, 2015

    KB: That’s pure b.s., food-grade fertilizer. Placentas, once they are expelled, are waste. Animals only eat them to hide the existence of offspring- the best thing a human can do with a placenta is bury it in the garden. And pro-biotics are a marketing gimmick.

    You still haven’t answered my question- why aren’t we seeing waves of autistic children dying from sepsis in their first year from their ‘leaky gut?”

    Also, stop being a creep.

  10. #10 Narad
    April 11, 2015

    I’m siding with environmental reasons re: ASIC1a as Dravet Syndrome accounts for only 2.5% of seizures post vaccination

    That non sequitur/word salad would be a FAIL, Meato. The effect that you’re senselessly waving around has nothing to do with 5-HT. This is not surprising given that its receptors are slow, but there’s a reason you just aimlessly refer to “the serotonergic system” and random “deficiencies” and inexplicably toss out papers about point mutations in a coronavirus: you’re pig-ignorant about “the system.”

    You have failed to advance anything even resembling a coherent remark. WTF is a “CO₂ deficiency” even supposed to mean in this context? Intra-/extracellular acidification is a result of sustained neuronal activity; this does not imply that some sort of mysterious, chronic, gut-related neural hypocapnia is the wellspring of epileptogenesis.

  11. #11 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    April 11, 2015

    Placentas, once they are expelled, are waste. Animals only eat them to hide the existence of offspring…

    Well, there might be other reasons.

    See http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/686/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-placenta-stew

    The rationale for placenta eating, apart from the fact that it doesn’t entail snuffing animals, is that since it nurtures the child during pregnancy it must contain all sorts of valuable nutrients. My medical informant knows of no research supporting this view, but it’s not implausible. Mama cats and dogs eat their placentas, and some say that a chemical in the stuff stimulates contractions of the uterus. Luckily for humans, breastfeeding and the drug Pitocin do the same thing. Parvati says some American Indian tribes had placenta rituals, although none of them apparently went so far as to eat the stuff. Leave it to the white man to get ridiculous about it.

    There may be dozens of reasons animals eat the placenta, or no reason at all other than the animal mother looking at the placenta and thinking, ‘hey, free protein’.

    And from the same page, for your entertainment…

    A friend has sent me recipes from the summer 1983 issue of Mothering magazine for the following mouth-watering dishes: placenta cocktail (1/4 raw placenta, 8 ounces of V-8 juice, 2 ice cubes, 1/2 carrot, blend for 10 seconds at high speed), placenta lasagna, placenta spaghetti sauce, placenta stew, and placenta pizza. The last one will definitely stop conversation at your next Super Bowl party…

  12. #12 lilady
    April 11, 2015

    Poor Keith Bell. He’s repeating that line of bullsh!t about Lennox-Gastaut seizures and the Dravet Syndrome genetic disorder.

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/26/poor-poor-pitiful-andy-wakefield-dissed-again-this-time-by-the-oregon-senate-committee-on-health-care/#comment-393263

  13. #13 lilady
    April 11, 2015

    Would you like some freshly ground placenta on your word salad Keith Bell?

    http://skeptoid.com/blog/2014/02/01/would-you-like-some-freshly-ground-placenta-on-your-salad/

  14. #14 Politicalguineapig
    April 11, 2015

    KB: I don’t think you read that link before you posted it. Even the most rudimentary reading indicates the writer is satirizing the placenta fad. So, that’s not actually an argument in favor of placenta eating- if anything, it supports my theory. Dogs and cats have also been known to eat their own vomit, among other things.

  15. #15 Keith Bell
    April 11, 2015

    capnkrunch, looking forward to your feedback regarding this paper I linked in #602:
    “5HT1A Receptors Inhibit Glutamate Inputs to Cardiac Vagal Neurons Post-Hypoxia/Hypercapnia”
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3215848/

    Remember, 95% of the body’s serotonin is intestinal and brain serotonin also relies on tryptophan of gut origin. I maintain vaccine injury including SIDS is a matter of microbial predisposition. First the gut, then the brain includes autoimmunity . . . what a shame the excruciating problem Infantile Spasm is treated from the neck up.

  16. #16 Politicalguineapig
    April 12, 2015

    Dude, I hope you didn’t pay for that education. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter- neuro as in, it is part of the brain. There is no serotonin in the gut. There’s nothing in the gut but cilia and whatever food particles are trucking along in the system- I learned that before I graduated middle school. Tryptophan is only found in the gut after a person eats, say, turkey or some other tryptophan-bearing food. You seem to believe it’s native to the gut.
    I’d like to point out that this is stuff I learned before graduating middle school. I’m not sure how you think the human body works, but what you think seems to have little relation to, you know, Earth. Have you ever actually taken an anatomy class? Heck, any sort of science class at all?

    I’m not sure what you mean by “infantile spasm.” There are a lot of things that could be covered by that. Epilepsy is treated from the neck up because it’s a neurological problem. It’s also fairly rare in infants.

  17. #17 Tim
    April 12, 2015

    PgP #617,
    There is an interesting discussion on seratonin at a particularly di-versed university:

    Approximately 90% of the human body’s total serotonin is located in the enterochromaffin cells in the GI tract, where it is used to regulate intestinal movements.

    Consuming purified tryptophan increases brain serotonin whereas eating foods containing tryptophan does not. This is because the transport system which brings tryptophan across the blood-brain barrier is also selective for the other amino acids contained in protein sources. High plasma levels of other large neutral amino acids compete for transport and prevent the elevated plasma tryptophan from increasing serotonin synthesis.

    In humans, defective signaling of serotonin in the brain may be the root cause of sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS).

    Depletion of serotonin is common between disorders such as obsessive-compulsive disorder, depression, and anxiety. However, Dr. Marazziti and his researchers at the University of Pisa in Italy found that depletion of serotonin also occurs in people who have recently fallen in love. This leads to the obsessive component associated with early stages of love.

    Despite the blood-brain barrier, the loss of serotonin production in the brain is partially compensated by intestinal serotonin.

    The gastrointestinal parasite Entamoeba histolytica secretes serotonin, causing a sustained secretory diarrhea in some patients. Patients infected with E. histolytica have been found to have highly elevated serum serotonin levels, which returned to normal following resolution of the infection. E. histolytica also responds to the presence of serotonin by becoming more virulent. This means serotonin secretion not only serves to increase the spread of enteamoebas by giving the host diarrhea but also serves to coordinate their behaviour according to their population density, a phenomenon known as quorum sensing.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin
    =============================

    Concerning ‘SIDS’; I hypothesize it is the dysfunction of the reflex to need to breath, whatever the mechanism.

    I take it that there is a ‘state switch’ akin to differing voltage levels in a computer corresponding to ‘off’ or ‘on’ whereby there is some point between alkalosis/acidosis, (hyper/hypo) (oxia/capinia). Like with an electronic circuit, I propose that this ‘reference value’ may subtly *drift* until the response now lays outside some viable value or some feedback or component derated — A skater oscillating through an imperfect ‘half-pipe’ is unlikely to spontaneously return, should he drift too far outside the pipe.

    under normal circumstances the breathing rate dictated by the body alone already leads to 98-99% oxygen saturation of the arterial blood and the effect of over-breathing on the oxygen intake is minor. What is really happening differs from divers’ understanding; these divers are extending their dive by closing down the body’s natural breathing mechanism, not by increasing oxygen load. The mechanism is as follows:

    The primary urge to breathe is triggered by rising carbon dioxide (CO2) levels in the bloodstream. CO2 builds up in the bloodstream when O2 is metabolized and it needs to be expelled as a waste product. The body detects CO2 levels very accurately and relies on this to control breathing. Hyperventilation artificially depletes this (CO2) causing a low blood carbon dioxide condition called hypocapnia. Hypocapnia reduces the reflexive respiratory drive, allows the delay of breathing and leaves the diver susceptible to loss of consciousness from hypoxia. For most healthy people the first sign of low O2 is a greyout or unconsciousness: there is no bodily sensation that warns a diver of an impending blackout.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shallow_water_blackout

    It does not seem to be a simple matter of just hypoxia — freedive samba sufferers often have total saturation above 30-50% with greater concentrations in the brain.

    CPR recommendations are noteworthy, I think. We used to be taught 1-2-3-4-5-breath! Now it is 30:1 15:1 or none:

    As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song “Stayin’ Alive” provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen’s “Another One Bites The Dust”, which is exactly 100 beats-per-minute and contains a memorable repeating drum pattern. For those with non cardiac arrest and people less than 20 years of age, standard CPR is superior to compression-only CPR.

    The brain may sustain damage after blood flow has been stopped for about four minutes and irreversible damage after about seven minutes. Typically if blood flow ceases for one to two hours, then body cells die. Therefore, in general CPR is effective only if performed within seven minutes of the stoppage of blood flow.

    WhackyWeedia/wiki/Cardiopulmonary_resuscitation#Compression_only

    ^^ I take it that in most cardiac arrest situations there is still ample oxygen in the blood as well as some stimulating reflex from increasing CO2.
    ===========

    Anything that is 70% water will not spontaneously combust.

    Johnny #64, yet a body is able to combust itself to ash — Usually being blown with only oxygen after ignition.

    There is plenty of energy stored in sugars, proteins, fats to support the total vaporization of the remaining 50 kg of water — some reactions are fed by water vapor such as the combustion of iron.

    Stay out of those death beams or microbiome imbalances that liberate all the elemental calcium, phosporus, magnesium, and sodium at once into serum liquid contact.

  18. #18 Tim
    April 12, 2015

    A typical 70 kg adult human has about 170 kJ of energy in the form of glucose circulating in the blood, about 2600 kJ of energy stored in the muscles and liver as glycogen (a polymeric form of glucose), about 100,000 kJ stored in the form of protein (primarily muscle tissue), and almost 500,000 kJ in the form of fats

    http://2012books.lardbucket.org/books/principles-of-general-chemistry-v1.0/s22-08-thermodynamics-and-life.html

    Now, that adds up to 602,770 kJ.

    (70 Kg)X.7 yeilds 49 Kg water.

    Q==mXcXdeltaT

    (49 Kg)X(4.2 kJ/kg)X(100-37) or 12,965 kJ gets us to boiling.

    Q=(mass)X(heat of vaporization)
    (49 Kg)X(2260 kJ/Kg) == 110,740 kJ.

    That leaves 479,065 kJ to contribute to brilliance.

  19. #19 herr doktor bimler
    April 12, 2015

    That leaves 479,065 kJ to contribute to brilliance.

    In practice, however, running a crematorium requires lots of fuel.
    What puzzles me about “spontaneous combustion” is that’s only reported for humans. With all the lifestock in the world, you’d expect to hear reports of spontaneous bovine combustion, or spontaneous ovine combustion, but no.

  20. #20 Tim
    April 12, 2015

    running a crematorium requires lots of fuel.

    Don’t they usually first need to burn through the relatively stable, decorative $2000 coffin, herr doktor bimler #620.

    Besides, they’re still probably infused with formaldehyde so there is something left to display during the protracted pity party. — Perhaps, this may be supplanted with the sweet-smelling nitromethane and crepe-paper coffins for future *green* cremation efficacy?

    Or seratonin superstimulation might be induced into the soon-to-be succumbed:

  21. #21 Ray Brent Marsh
    S.S. Charon
    April 12, 2015

    Naa, we just stack’em up like cordwood to dry out for a little time; AGW, dont’cha know?

    In the interim,

    Families of the deceased were given concrete dust instead of cremated remains.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri-State_Crematory

  22. #22 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    April 12, 2015

    Johnny #64, yet a body is able to combust itself to ash — Usually being blown with only oxygen after ignition.

    I am not saying you can’t burn up a body. I was able to fit mom and dad in a little hole in a wall, and carry them, one under each arm, from the car up to said wall. They didn’t take up a lot of room in the state they were in at the time, nor did they weigh a lot.

    If you think a living thing will catch fire without an external source of energy, you’re darn stupid. If you think that microbes in your gut can build a fire and let it get out of control, you as stupid as Mr. Bell.

    I’ve built a fire or two in my life, and even wet wood isn’t easy to burn. Building a fire out of people, at about 70% water, would be even harder.

  23. #23 Politicalguineapig
    April 12, 2015

    Tim: You are an unreliable resource, and that page was heavily edited 2 days ago. Serotonin doesn’t exist in the gut, regardless of whatever fly-by-night organization says.

    Frankly, your understanding of how things work is about as poor as Phillip’s.

  24. #24 KayMarie
    April 12, 2015

    Tim may be unreliable.

    However that doesn’t mean the serotonin found in the enteric nervous system and other cells needed to regulate and coordinate digestion is a figment of his and other’s collective imaginations.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3272651/#B5

    From the July 2001 Discover Magazine (which tends to be written for lay people but is usually not completely unreliable has this bit of serotonin history.

    “Serotonin, also known as 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT), was first isolated in 1933, when it was discovered in the gut and called enteramine. In 1947 it was found in blood platelets, and the molecule earned its current name, serotonin, when it also proved to constrict blood vessels. Soon after, serotonin was identified in the brain. But its role was unknown until some drug tests in the 1950s drew unexpected results. Researchers found that three drugs–isoniazid and iproniazid, both antituberculars, and imipramine, an antihistamine–improved the moods of test subjects”

    Now the web of whatever woven from this factoid….well just because you start with one fact and word associate your way to whatever your bugaboo is may not resemble reality.

    FWIW most of the drug development for functional GI disorders for the last couple of decades has focused on serotonin receptors in the gut. Which one and how you effect it will cause things to either speed up or slow down.

    This is also why it seems so many antidepressants have GI side effects. The drugs don’t know they are supposed to effect the receptors on your mood nerves and leave the rest alone.

  25. #25 Politicalguineapig
    April 12, 2015

    Kaymarie: Information from an unreliable source is unreliable in and of itself. For instance, I still have trouble believing oxytocin exists because I first heard of it from people lamenting hook-up culture. If people like Tim and the other Johnny say serotonin is in the gut, even Discover Magazine won’t make me believe in it.

    For what it’s worth, I’ve been on two anti-depressants, three if you count imapramine, which never did anything. The only effect I noticed was a bit of weight gain with Paxil. It’s possible I don’t have any serotonin at all.

  26. #26 herr doktor bimler
    April 12, 2015

    Don’t they usually first need to burn through the relatively stable, decorative $2000 coffin, herr doktor bimler #620.

    A coffin of dry, thoroughly-varnished wood is not the energy-intensive part of crematory activities. Wooden coffin or trendy low-impact cardboard… the burn still consumes 30-odd cubic metres of natural gas. Or there is the Indian funeral-pyre tradition of making a few half-arsed attempts to burn the body before the wood runs out, and then throwing the calcined corpse down the ghat into the river.

    Fire is not an efficient way of disposing of bodies — to be clear, I am *not* speaking from experience! — though it makes the job of forensic pathologists even more unpleasant than it would otherwise be.

  27. #27 JP
    April 12, 2015

    Don’t they usually first need to burn through the relatively stable, decorative $2000 coffin, herr doktor bimler #620.

    There is a point to be made, I suppose, about the general ghastliness of the funeral home industry. My dad was cremated, but even so, I remember conversations about the funeral home trying to get as much money out of my poor widowed mother as they could. There was an actual coffin involved, I believe, though I never saw it, since I didn’t want to. It certainly wasn’t an open-casket funeral, for reasons related to the manner of my father’s death, and I don’t think the coffin was even on display at all. A cardboard box would have been perfectly sufficient, and more within my family’s income range.

  28. #28 Keith Bell
    United States
    April 13, 2015

    Last week’s big news:
    “Microbes help produce serotonin in gut”
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150409143045.htm

    Also, Bifidobacteria are known to raise tryptophan, precursor of brain serotonin production:
    http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(08)00074-5/abstract

  29. #29 Gray Falcon
    April 13, 2015

    @Keith: Neither of which explains why so main American Indians died of measles. Yes, I’m going to keep bring that up until you properly address it.

  30. #30 KayMarie
    April 13, 2015

    @PGP which is why I also inclued a pubmed resource but gave you something that was the backstory.

    If you really need for serotonin to only exist in your brain but it really isn’t a science-based opinion to deny it.

    Now if you really need a Gish Gallop of pubmed sources I can do that, but I don’t know that anything will change your mind no matter how many Glaxo and Novartis scientists believed in it enough to get FDA approved drugs developed from what is obviously mass hysteria and delusion.

    I get it that it hurts when the crazies find one thing that actually has some basis in reality but the best pseudoscience always hangs off of some bit of fact or other. Part of how you sell the rest of the nonsense.

    But believe what you will. Your gut is the one gut in all the world that doesn’t have an enteric nervous system and every nerve below your neck somehow functions without the use of neurotransmitters. 🙂

  31. #31 Tim
    April 13, 2015

    For instance, I still have trouble believing oxytocin exists because I first heard of it from people lamenting hook-up culture.

    Well, it is probably unethical to rub it on your bo’s deodorant stick. Still, I’ll bet the word ‘petocin’ slides out your lips like oversalivated lollypop squirt when bestowing birthin’ advice upon acutely rotund acquaintances.

    Yep
    http://www.rxlist.com/pitocin-drug.htm

    Alphas SO1EP5, “Never Let Me go”

    Jessica Elkhart (Isabella Hofmann)- An Alpha with the ability to induce oxytocin addiction via touch. The recipients of her touch feel loved by Jessica and though not mind-controlled exactly, will feel compelled to do whatever Jessica wants. If Jessica intentionally breaks off her ‘love’ by hurting the person (emotionally) the affected individual’s brain, as a result of heightened stress, starts rapidly mass-producing cortisone in such a large quantity that it leads to cellular breakdown and eventual death.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Alphas_characters#List_of_other_known_Alphas

  32. #32 doug
    April 13, 2015

    JP
    I know someone who recently arranged a cremation and was told by the undertakers that a coffin was required – sort of implying regulatory requirement. There was no such regulation, but many undertakers require a box with handles. The undertakers did not try to sell an expensive coffin, but I believe it was still about $400. Given how many people are cremated, it strikes me as absurd that the undertakers and incinerators aren’t properly equipped to handle bodies in cardboard boxes or even plastic bags or paper shrouds, especially where the cremation is done on the same premises that accepted the body originally. My conclusion is that it would be against their financial interests.

    As far as energy consumption for cremation of the average adult, I doubt if it is much beyond rounding error for the sum energy consumed by the person during their lifetime.

  33. #33 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    April 13, 2015

    doug – i found the following at the National Funeral Directors Association web site in the creamation FAQs: http://nfda.org/planning-a-funeral/cremation/160.html#individual

    Is a casket required?
    No. For sanitary reasons, ease of placement and dignity, many crematories require that the deceased be cremated in a combustible, leak proof, rigid, covered container. This does not need to be a casket as such. What is required is an enclosed, rigid, container made of wood or other combustible material to allow for the dignified handling of human remains. The type of casket or container selected is really a personal decision. Caskets and containers are available in a wide variety of materials ranging from simple cardboard containers to beautifully handcrafted oak, maple or mahogany caskets.

    I presume it’s considered bad form to put one’s loved ones in a paper bag and haul lit around like a bag of dog chow, so can understand the desire for a rigid container with handles.

  34. #34 Politicalguineapig
    April 13, 2015

    Kaymarie: “But believe what you will. Your gut is the one gut in all the world that doesn’t have an enteric nervous system and every nerve below your neck somehow functions without the use of neurotransmitters.”

    I know neurotransmitters exist, I just don’t think serotonin exists in my system. I suspect that sometime soon we’re going to find out this whole gut-brain thing was a giant hoax.

  35. #36 Narad
    April 13, 2015

    capnkrunch, looking forward to your feedback regarding this paper I linked in #602:
    “5HT1A Receptors Inhibit Glutamate Inputs to Cardiac Vagal Neurons Post-Hypoxia/Hypercapnia”

    Recall:

    Serotonin imbalance of gut origin leads to glutamate excitotoxicity which in the prone sleeping position leads to SIDS when CO2 stimulates the serotonergic system.

    Except that Meatotomy also is “more concerned about CO2 deficiency.”* Whatever.

    “This study demonstrates that under control and H/H conditions, 5HT1A receptors do not alter excitatory neurotransmission to CVNs. However, during recovery from H/H an endogenous serotonergic pathway, acting via 5HT1A receptors and likely via a presynaptic mechanism of action, is recruited to inhibit glutamatergic neurotransmission to CVNs.”

    In other words, 5-HT via 5-HT3** (and ATP via P2X) is the desired excitatory signaler for the post-H/H bradycardic correction, but glutamate – which is a normal participant anyway – remains a fallback option.

    The process is modulated by 5-HT1A binding (ignore the gene variants, which are tossed under the bus anyway; I figured Meato might need a picture, even if he’s going to use it as free-association fodder).

    So:

    1. Has no causal role whatever for excitotoxicity.
    2. Points, as usual (e.g., PMID 20124538, 19247214), to a problem with serotonergic functionthat leads to an exaggerated response to H/H episodes. This is structural (and hence developmental) in nature.
    3. As a corollary, has nothing to do with a global brainstem “deficiency” of 5-HT, much less an imaginary “gut origin” one.

    Well played, as usual. I can’t wait to find out how the gut flora control the inner ear connection (PMID 24021919).

    * No, epilepsy does not get you off the hook.
    ** I actually edited it out from #611: figure out the difference between ligand-gated and G-protein coupled, Meato.

  36. #37 Dangerous Bacon
    April 13, 2015

    “Bifidobacteria are known to raise tryptophan, precursor of brain serotonin production”

    Proof that if Lubitz’s doctors had injected bifidobacteria into his brain, he never would have crashed that Germanwings plane.

  37. #38 KayMarie
    April 13, 2015

    OK, whatever, if you are going to remove whole body systems from existence every time one wacko finds one small part of it to base some wacky on you are going to be missing a lot of body parts/systems/chemicals in a hurry.

    If you can figure out how you have the only gut in the world that works perfectly without all the regulatory stuff the rest of us need you can probably make a fortune. 🙂

    Just deciding things do not exist because a wacko uses the word once seems like a silly way to determine what to believe in.

    Do you decide all computer chips do not exist because some wacko thinks the government implants them in people and no evidence in all the world will ever prove that thing in your computer is a chip or that it has anything to do with being able to surf the web?

    I mean I knew you seem to think the world only exists as you believe when it comes to what one group of people are like, I really didn’t think that extended all the way down to something science has found actually exists, even in guinea pig guts. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21226885

  38. #39 ken
    April 13, 2015

    PGP- #635 Indigenous Bacteria from the Gut Microbiota Regulate Host Serotonin Biosynthesis
    http://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(15)00248-2?_returnURL=http%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867415002482%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

  39. #40 Tim
    April 13, 2015

    Perhaps it would have mediated the response to his sporadic access to SSRIs (aka mass-murder suicide pills), Dangerous Bacon #638.

  40. #41 ken
    April 13, 2015

    I’m beginning to think that PGP is JP playing mind games and laughing.

  41. #42 Tim
    April 13, 2015

    I know neurotransmitters exist, I just don’t think serotonin exists in my system.

    There is still hope, PgP #635

    Serotonin-deficient mutants respond to fluoxetine, but confoundingly the putative worm homolog of the human serotonin reuptake transporter hSERT – the conventional protein target of SSRIs – is still present. As luck would have it, two years later Bob Horvitz’s lab independently replicated the general observation of serotonin-independent activity of fluoxetine in worms

    http://www.ethanperlstein.com/do-worms-get-depressed/

  42. #43 Tim
    April 13, 2015

    I’ve built a fire or two in my life, and even wet wood isn’t easy to burn.

    When wood is wet, build a fire and dry it out, Johnny #623 — you need to be able to access the parts of the wood that are not wet, or have elemental sodium, magnesium, or lithium (stored in oil vials or big chunks which are initially coated with a protective oxide layer) on hand:

    31 And Elijah took twelve stones…***

    32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.

    33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.

    34 And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.

    35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.

    36***

    37***

    38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

    1 Kings 18:31-38

    *** “Skip abit, brother.”

  43. #44 The God Of Abraham, Isaac, And Jacob
    April 13, 2015

    “magnesium”?? Fail, acolyte — Try potassium:

  44. #45 Tim
    April 13, 2015

    I could loan her my bo if she wanted. (It’s basically a long stick.)

    Pgp #566, in ‘murica, it is a good bit shorter and called a ‘skater hater'(not to be confused with Kahuna Big Stick):
    http://www.galls.com/batons

    Ohh, you mean this kinda stick (at 54:20):

    Beastmaster

  45. #46 Narad
    April 13, 2015

    Also, Bifidobacteria are known to raise tryptophan, precursor of brain serotonin production:
    h[]tp://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(08)00074-5/abstract

    You are just painfully stupid, Meato. (I suppose this goes without saying, given that you continue to cite things that you can’t be bothered to attempt to read.)

    We have here an N = 12 treatment group of male Sprague-Dawley rats. The treatment produced no statistically significant difference in brain monoamines (Table 1), although there was a p < 0.05 (actual value conspicuously omitted) decrease in frontal-cortex 5-HIAA, which is pretty much meaningless overall and entirely meaningless in the context you’ve blundered into.

    There was no effect on the forced-swim test (i.e., antidepressant), which is what the whole point was.

    “[T]he present measures of tryptophan represent total tryptophan concentrations in the plasma, and do not allow a distinction to be made between the protein-bound fraction and levels of bioavailable tryptophan. In addition, as tryptophan relies on a competitive transport system to enter the brain, variations in the concentrations of competing large amino acids in the plasma may affect the transport of tryptophan from the periphery to the brain. The present study is limited by the absence of peripheral measures of these large neural amino acids that can affect central concentrations of tryptophan. Therefore, these results must be interpreted with caution.

    Except by you, of course. I’m certainly not wasting any more time by getting into the mechanism for the sake of GMI’s self-anointed gut microbiome expert, who nonetheless was willing to produce this catastrophe:

    I’m still learning about how the gut affects brain serotonin levels and gave a brief overview, including how serotonin crosses BBB into circulation and how tryptophan of gut microbial origin crosses BBB as precursor for serotonin production in the brain.

    But in your small, compartmentalized world, Narad, it’s all about the brain. I’ve got news for you: your BBB is a joke. You can’t even acknowledge role of the gut in serotonin deficiency associated with SIDS (including vaccine-induced SIDS).

    If anybody can read this scoffing about “it’s all about the brain” to mean anything other than that Meatotomy thought that his declared SIDS connection didn’t involve the brain, I’m all ears.

  46. #47 Narad
    April 13, 2015

    ^ There’s a missing closing quotation mark after the boldface “caution,” sorry.

  47. #48 JP
    April 13, 2015

    No, ken, we’ve been over this, remember? I’m God. Orac is the most intelligent supercomputer in the galaxy. Most of the regulars are either robots, brainwashed Illuminati drones, or red dresses, though I suppose those are really almost all the same thing, aren’t they?

  48. #49 Tim
    April 13, 2015

    If anybody can read this scoffing about “it’s all about the brain” to mean anything other than that Meatotomy thought that his declared SIDS connection didn’t involve the brain, I’m all ears.

    You’ve hit upon something, Narad #642. Perhaps, it is not *in the brain* per se but rather signaling to the brain/autonomic system. I note that shallow water blackout usually has plenty of oxygen still concentrated ‘in the brain’.

    How would it compare to, say, going from a mild buzz to narcoleptically passing out mid-coherent-sentence with ingestion of exotic alcohol (amino acids introduced during ferment)?? Not ‘walking, talking blacking out’; Stone cold out with no memory of the preceeding moments before one wakes up at his keyboard to find drewl all over his mouse.

    I’m thinking the mechanism is something more along the lines of a ‘vasovegal’ reaction — A reaction that invariably, even if offhandedly, involves the gut.

  49. #50 JP
    April 13, 2015

    I’m beginning to think that PGP is JP playing mind games and laughing.

    PGP is, in fact, a member of the Babylonian Brotherhood, the one who sang about the man you call Jesus: yea, that he was a Capricorn and ate organic foods. I her* I am well pleased.

    *It’s sort of complicated – it’s only her hologram which has the appearance of a bearded human male.

  50. #51 capnkrunch
    April 13, 2015

    @Keith Bell

    capnkrunch, looking forward to your feedback regarding this paper I linked in #602:
    “5HT1A Receptors Inhibit Glutamate Inputs to Cardiac Vagal Neurons Post-Hypoxia/Hypercapnia”
    h[]tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3215848/

    Well, Narad nailed that. I’d also point out that CO2 chemoreceptors are centrally located. The stimulation of cardiac vagal nerves by hypercapnia occurs in the CNS, not the gut.

    Remember, 95% of the body’s serotonin is intestinal…

    Doesn’t really matter since the serotonergic neurons in the CNS produce their own serotonin and that is the relevant pathway here.

    …and brain serotonin also relies on tryptophan of gut origin.

    Just like it relies on absorbtion from dietary sources for all essential amino acids. Do you ever think before you type?

    It’s telling that from my last post yku summarily ignored every point I made except the one that I would respond to the rest later. Is it because you don’t have a leg to stand on or is it that you have trouble reading past the first sentence of anything, not just academic papers? I’m still very much interested in why you think a study on CAD is relevant to a discussion on the etiology of SIDS. Is it because of this?

    Conclusions—The study suggests that serotonin is associated with coronary artery disease and occurrence of cardiac events, particularly in younger age groups. [emphasis added]

  51. #52 Krebiozen
    April 13, 2015

    PGP,

    For instance, I still have trouble believing oxytocin exists because I first heard of it from people lamenting hook-up culture. If people like Tim and the other Johnny say serotonin is in the gut, even Discover Magazine won’t make me believe in it.

    You remind me of people who say, “don’t tell me what to do, I’ll just do the opposite”, which makes them ridiculously easy to manipulate, something they were presumably trying to avoid in the first place. IMO it’s a better strategy to assess any claim based on evidence, not by jumping to conclusions based on an emotional reaction. That way you might avoid making a twit of yourself by uttering such demonstrably untrue statements.

    Oxytocin does undoubtedly exist – it’s used to induce labor – though some of its claimed effects on human emotions are probably overstated. Most serotonin is indeed in the gut, and if you had no serotonin in your body you would very probably be dead, given the range of essential functions it performs. Also, the microbiome is undoubtedly of great importance and we have a lot to learn; the fact that Keith seems to have picked up this particular ball and disappeared over the horizon with it does not change that.

  52. #53 Keith Bell
    United States
    April 13, 2015

    “In addition, as tryptophan relies on a competitive transport system to enter the brain”

    That’s an interesting dynamic regulated by insulin allowing tryptophan of gut origin to cross BBB. So, we’re back to sugar. Seems E. coli also have a hand in tryptophan level. Microbial degradation and synthesis of tryptophan in microbial overgrowth/imbalance makes this a sticky subject:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4202342/

    The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

  53. #54 Calli Arcale
    http://fractalwonder.wordpress.com
    April 13, 2015

    capnkrunch:

    Just like it relies on absorbtion from dietary sources for all essential amino acids. Do you ever think before you type?

    You mean slathering ourselves in food to allow it to be absorbed transdermally doesn’t work?

    I wonder sometimes how my children survived that six-to-eight month period when babies are learning how to work this whole “food” business. 😛

  54. #55 capnkrunch
    April 13, 2015

    Calli Arcale@655
    I find better results by filtering it through my clothes first. Particularly white ones. The stains are how you know the toxins were filtered out.

  55. #56 herr doktor bimler
    April 13, 2015

    Also, Bifidobacteria are known to raise tryptophan, precursor of brain serotonin production:

    We have here an N = 12 treatment group of male Sprague-Dawley rats.

    Rats have that whole coprophagy thing to ensure that the products of gut bacteria can go through a second time and be absorbed in the small intestine. It requires very dedicated subjects to replicate this in humans.

  56. #57 herr doktor bimler
    April 14, 2015

    Not to mention the well-documented fact that porcupines are allergic to raisins.

  57. #58 Narad
    April 14, 2015

    “In addition, as tryptophan relies on a competitive transport system to enter the brain”

    That’s an interesting dynamic regulated by insulin allowing tryptophan of gut origin to cross BBB. So, we’re back to sugar.

    Your irredeemably brain-dead desperation is noted. LNAA transport is not “regulated by insulin.”

    The statement itself is shockingly stupid on its face, and I’m sure the f*ck not going to be the one to try to salvage meaning from it for you.

  58. #59 Narad
    April 14, 2015

    ^ Although I will note that all tryptophan is “of gut origin,” making this filip a further indictment. It’s not the “gut origin” that you imagine, but that’s scarcely relevant at this point.

  59. #60 Helianthus
    April 14, 2015

    Seems E. coli also have a hand in tryptophan level.

    Any living organism will either use or produce (or both, depending on circumstances) tryptophan and about any other aminoacid in existence.
    So do probiotics bacteria. I wouldn’t be surprised if your beloved Bifidobacterium consumes tryptophan present in guts. And I know E. coli does produce tryptophan if there isn’t enough for its needs.

    With declarations that sweeping, you cannot go wrong. What’s your point?

    In other news, water is wet, sun rises East, and bears may or may not sh!t in the wood*.

    * There aren’t many people who complain about walking in the wood and setting foot on bear stuff. Um, maybe because the ones who did also met the bear itself.

  60. #61 JP
    April 14, 2015

    Most serotonin is indeed in the gut, and if you had no serotonin in your body you would very probably be dead, given the range of essential functions it performs.

    I sort of assumed that when PGP made the comment about “not having any serotonin at all,” it was sort of dark humor or whistling in the dark vis-a-vis antidepressants not being helpful. I guess the oxytocin statement has made me reconsider that assessment. Serotonin is undoubtedly real, although I suppose it is a little bit “spooky” in a sense that we don’t know exactly how antidepressants work, or why different antidepressants do or don’t work for different people. It doesn’t make serotonin, or the fact that SSRIs affect serotonin levels “not a real thing” though.

  61. #62 JP
    April 14, 2015

    There aren’t many people who complain about walking in the wood and setting foot on bear stuff. Um, maybe because the ones who did also met the bear itself.

    Either that, or they never learned to identify scat. It was fairly plentiful in my own native woods, especially in late summer/early fall, when the pears and so on were ripe.

  62. #63 Helianthus
    April 14, 2015

    @ JP

    Either that, or they never learned to identify scat.

    I have to admit the latter would be a better hypothesis 🙂

    I was messing around with a joke I read a long time ago on a British webcomic, “Extermlnatus Now” (described as Sonic meets W40K, slightly NSFW due to crude language and innuendo).

  63. #64 herr doktor bimler
    April 14, 2015

    Either that, or they never learned to identify scat. It was fairly plentiful in my own native woods, especially in late summer/early fall, when the pears and so on were ripe.

    My knowledge of the lexicon of venery comes mainly from T.H. White, but IIRC if bears are the source then the correct term is ‘lesses’.

  64. #65 Tim
    April 14, 2015

    I’ve been on two anti-depressants, three if you count imapramine, which never did anything. The only effect I noticed was a bit of weight gain with Paxil.

    PgP #626, before there were SSRIs there was tryptophan 5-hydroxytryptophan. 5-htp is the precursor to seratonin (thus melatonin and dopamine(??) ) so instead of blocking reuptake you’re making more of it.

    I found it great stuff. However, I became afraid of it as per the will of Big Pharma. I stopped taking it because of some disturbing physiological changes (intermittent missing pulse, for one thing) though I don’t know it was the cause. I do wish the brains here could give me an honest assessment of the amino acid.

    In the spirit of it being relegated to ‘woo’:

    Curiously, banning tryptophan – a safe, inexpensive, effective, and natural precursor to serotonin – opened the door for Prozac and its imitators which have enjoyed huge financial success in the 1990s as synthetic mood elevators, despite their considerable side effects.

    … Another report compared the results of three studies involving 5-HTP and imipramine** (another standard antidepressant). All three trials showed no difference in the effect of the two substances. Once again, 5-HTP performed as well as the conventional drug and 5-HTP did not produce the side effects of dry mouth and tremors typically caused by imipramine.

    http://lightparty.com/Health/5-HTP.html

    There are always caveats. Much 5-HTP on the market comes bundled with a whopping dose of vitamin B6 as it is used in the conversion to seratonin. The problem with this is that the 5-HTP needs to be past the BBB before being converted. Otherwise, you’re left with increased serum seratonin and melatonin which can cut both ways — Excess is stored in red blood cells and ‘drawn’ to inflammation. This can be good for a bad liver. This can be bad for inflammation in the vascular system.

    Addition of small amounts of 5-hydroxytryptamine to whole blood altered the tendency of the platelets, leucocytes, and red blood cells of dogs, cats, and rabbits to aggregate. The magnitude of this response to 5-hydroxy-tryptamine was dose dependent and biphasic.

    http://circres.ahajournals.org/content/13/5/392

    Elevated serum serotonin is associated with carcinoid heart disease, the hallmark of which is valvular thickening. Yet, the mechanistic role of serotonin in carcinoid heart disease is poorly understood. We postulated that serotonin has a direct mitogenic effect on cardiac valvular subendocardial cells, and that this effect is mediated by serotonin receptors.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11767194

    In retrospect, it is probably not such a good idea to take the B6 concurrent with the 5-HTP; I was probably really messing up by taking it with P-5-P as what I believe were mild ‘seratonin storms’ were only a few chuncks of cheeze (tyrosine) away.
    =========================

    *5-htp imipramine* into PubMed yeilds 155 results. Here, we find the sickest one:

    The regeneration of explants prepared from goldfish retinas with a prior crush of the optic nerve is…

    In the present work we evaluated the effect of serotonin and some serotonergic agonists on the neuritic outgrowth from goldfish retinal explants. Serotonin, its precursor, 5-hydroxytryptophan, and the 5HT1A receptor agonists, 8-hydroxy-2-(di-n-propylamino)tetralin and buspirone, inhibited the outgrowth. The blockers of serotonin uptake, imipramine and citalopram, were also inhibitors of neurite sprouting.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7523693

    Raise your hands if you’ve never ever crushed a fisheye.

  65. #67 Dangerous Bacon
    April 14, 2015

    For “an honest assessment of the amino acid”, nothing beats the online reviewer of a an antivax book (authored by No-Clue Habakus).

    The reviewer (who styles herself as a pediatric nurse) informed her audience on Amazon that Evil Pharma places such horrific chemicals as amino acids, dextrose and mineral salts in vaccines. Imagine – injecting _amino acids_ into your fragile infant!!!

    I had to inform her and her readers that these toxic chemicals can also be found in infant formulas.

    Maybe they will contact the Food Babe to start an anti-amino acid campaign.

  66. #68 Helianthus
    April 14, 2015

    @ Dangerous Bacon

    Evil Pharma places such horrific chemicals as amino acids, dextrose and mineral salts in vaccines

    Oh the Horror!
    It’s so disgusting. Let me go juicing a few veggies to put myself together. I have better hurry, it’s almost time for my vit C IV session.

  67. #69 Denice Walter
    April 14, 2015

    Believe it or not, this terrifying agenda has already infiltrated health food stores: they sell ((shudder)) branch chain amino acids in plastic containers.

    All the more reason to grow whatever you eat yourself ( see Mike Adams’ new home farm system at Natural News)

  68. #70 JP
    April 14, 2015

    @hdb:

    Perhaps, although The Straight Dope indicates that “lesses” is boar droppings, not bear droppings – they’re only one letter off, after all.

    Scat, of course, is the more polite of the general terms, sh*t being probably my go-to. Although, oddly enough, one never really speaks of “deer sh*t” or “rabbit sh*t” – perhaps they are too cute.

    (I recommend the link above.)

  69. #71 JP
    April 14, 2015

    ^ OOPS I missed the last bit – “lesses” can come from bears also.

  70. #72 Keith Bell
    United States
    April 14, 2015

    #659: Why do you think the world is addicted to sugar and carbs? It’s a feel-good diet, a temporary fix, raising insulin to remove competing amino acids allowing tryptophan into the brain to raise brain serotonin. This should be common knowledge:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5120086
    “Insulin, in turn, decreases plasma levels of large neutral amino acids that would ordinarily compete with tryptophan for transport across the blood-brain barrier. Resulting brain changes in serotonin provide a plausible mechanism whereby diet could affect behaviour. ”
    http://nah.sagepub.com/content/3/1-2/55.abstract

    But poor, pitiful, bigoted Roald Dahl didn’t factor flora shift in his candy-assed books. He didn’t factor how viruses bind to sugar in the cell wall of microbes to exacerbate viral infectivity. Was he feeding sugar to his poor daughter on her deathbed? Probably, since he was obsessed with sugar and medicine.

    Speaking of bigoted, what you think is important as emotional stress also leads to flora shift.

  71. #73 Chris
    April 14, 2015

    “But poor, pitiful, bigoted Roald Dahl didn’t factor flora shift in his candy-assed books.”

    You are both an idiot and a heartless bigoted jerk.

    So where is the verifiable documentation dated before 1990 showing autism went up in the 1970s and 1980s coincident to the use of the MMR vaccine in the USA?

  72. #74 Politicalguineapig
    April 14, 2015

    HDB: With all the lifestock in the world, you’d expect to hear reports of spontaneous bovine combustion, or spontaneous ovine combustion, but no.

    Actually, given that cows produce a ton of methane, you’d think they’d be more likely to combust than humans.

    JP: The serotonin thing was a joke. I’m in the middle of a long depressive episode, and woomongering about serotonin makes me snappish. I still don’t think there’s any there to the gut-brain thing and I doubt oxytocin has any effect on non-pregnant women, besides use as a shaming tactic to get them addicted to romance.

    Ken: See: unreliable sources. KB’s one of them, therefore any of his links are trash.

    KB: WTF is your problem with Roald Dahl? Are you going to say he supported child abuse because he also created Miss Trunchbull? Have you ever actually read any of his books? Or do you just use him to keep banging on about how much you hate sugar?

  73. #75 Helianthus
    April 14, 2015

    @ K Bell

    I could grant you some true in the Insulin/free sugar part of your last post.

    About carbohydrates, one of the point of going for starchy veggies is precisely to avoid insulin spikes, as long carbohydrates will need time to be digested and assimilated. (although that’s no excuse to go on a diet of French fries – but here, it’s more about all the oil and salt coming with them)
    So I would respectfully disagree on putting them in the same boat.

    But now:

    He didn’t factor how viruses bind to sugar in the cell wall of microbes to exacerbate viral infectivity.

    You know, bacteria are not Hermit crabs. They don’t build a wall of sugar because we are eating sugar. The bacteria wall is more akin to an insect exoskeleton, at least in function: to protect from the outside.

    So, sugar or no sugar in your diet, your bacteria are going to have a wall of sugar.

    Actually, the shell of arthropods (insects, shrimps…), the cell wall of plants and of mushrooms? All made of carbohydrates. Mostly indigestible by humans, but sugar polymers nonetheless.

    Sugar everywhere. There is no escape.

  74. #76 ken
    sugarland
    April 14, 2015

    SugarBind provides information on known carbohydrate sequences to which pathogenic organisms (bacteria, toxins and viruses) specifically adhere.
    http://www.sugarbind.expasy.org

  75. #77 ken
    April 14, 2015

    have to paste?
    sugarbind.expasy.org

  76. #78 JP
    April 14, 2015

    @PGP:

    The serotonin thing was a joke. I’m in the middle of a long depressive episode, and woomongering about serotonin makes me snappish.

    I kinda figured. Good luck trying to deal. If SSRIs aren’t helping, there are other medications out there that might help, or there’s counseling, etc. Seriously, check out your insurance information and see what’s covered. You can’t be kicked off your insurance for using it for what it covers.

    There are also other various ways of sort of shaking things up or getting out of a rut; I ought not recommend some of them here, due to their illegality. But just doing something different can sometimes help, I find; going on a trip, changing your routine, stuff like that. And it might be worth taking a look at your general situation and deciding if something really needs to change, like your job or living situation or whatever.

  77. #79 JP
    April 14, 2015

    ^ First paragraph should have been blockquoted.

  78. #80 Keith Bell
    United States
    April 14, 2015

    Of course, Heli, there’s even sugar found in outer space. I’ve never suggested dietary sugar affects the cells wall of microbes, though it may. Ocean creatures can’t build their own shells these days due to ocean acidification. Dietary sugar does, however, affect the balance of microbes and feeds overgrowth of opportunists.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3448089/

    Speaking of sugar imbalances, Chris, were you a gestational diabetic (GDM) by chance? Today’s news:
    “Association of Maternal Diabetes With Autism in Offspring”
    http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2247143

    GDM is a global epidemic based on flora imbalance. How is this affecting fetal brain development, i.e., Narad’s point about structural development #637? And then how do vaccines affect infants born to these mothers, adding insult to injury based on poor microbial predisposition?

    “Placental Source for 5-HT that Tunes Fetal Brain Development”
    http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v37/n1/full/npp2011194a.html

    “Probiotics for preventing gestational diabetes”
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD009951.pub2/abstract;jsessionid=C3A7ACFFBA6352D313E061F59FFFCD96.f04t01

  79. #81 KayMarie
    April 14, 2015

    ken, good luck with ridding your body of every last glycoprotein (and the glycolipids while you are at it).

    They are not abnormal body parts that only occur from excess sugar consumption; they are important bits your body needs. That is one of the reason infectious organisms use them to enter cells. Because they are bits of our body that are required and vital for our continued existence and we can’t live without them. If we could just stop making them the poor little buggers would be out of luck. But since we need them to live they exploit exactly those things.

    And while you are eating zero sugar and zero carbs make sure you turn off your gluconeogenesis apparatus as your body will find a way to make the sugars it requires to keep you alive by sticking those evil sugar molecules onto the proteins that require them to function and we wouldn’t want to give it a work around your diet now would we.

  80. #82 ken
    April 14, 2015

    Kay -Thou dost assume too much. I love my carbs too too much esp dark choc, flan, ice cream.

  81. #83 Narad
    April 14, 2015

    Why do you think the world is addicted to sugar and carbs? It’s a feel-good diet, a temporary fix, raising insulin to remove competing amino acids allowing tryptophan into the brain to raise brain serotonin.

    Do you also need help crossing the street? Have you ever wondered why SSRIs, which produce a nearly immediate increase in intracellular 5-HT, take weeks to show any effect, which most certainly is not euphoriant?*

    You don’t even understand the postulated mechanism behind the 44-year-old abstract that your lone “research” ability – primitive word association – disgorged, because you’re too dense to figure out how to follow it down even without having to get off your lazy ass. Instead, you make one up: insulin somehow “remove[s] competing amino acids.”

    The idea was that an overall reduction in the free LNAA pool would leave only the albumin-bound tryptophan, which would be dissociated by vaguely specified means. Perhaps it also “should be common knowledge” that not even Fernstrom still believes this.

    You’re wasting everyone’s time, Bellend.

    * Wrong system.

  82. #84 JP
    April 14, 2015

    @KayMarie:

    I wouldn’t bother trying to discuss anything with ken. All she really does is go around posting random links that she has not read or understood, with maybe an accompanying sentence, which are tangentially related to the topic, and claiming to be “playing the devil’s advocate” or “doing research” or something.

  83. #85 herr doktor bimler
    April 14, 2015

    Tim:
    an honest assessment of the amino acid.

    The Cochrane collaboration found a lot of studies designed to pimp the benefits of tryptophan or 5-Hydroxytryptophan products, but only two studies of any value:
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD003198/full

    Available evidence does suggest these substances are better than placebo at alleviating depression. Further studies are needed to evaluate the efficacy and safety of 5-HTP and tryptophan before their widespread use can be recommended. …[Health concerns]… Because alternative antidepressants exist which have been proven to be effective and safe the clinical usefulness of 5-HTP and tryptophan is limited at present.

    There was at least one study they didn’t include (single-blind, negative outcome)… I was a guinea-pig, it was how I met the Frau Doktorin. [/romantic story]
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yvxRXnObxjM/T3eN83CJgRI/AAAAAAAAD0s/TYN9T4quoe0/s1600/guinea2.PNG

  84. #86 ken
    April 14, 2015

    From Harvard Health-What causes depression?
    http://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what-causes-depression

  85. #87 JP
    April 14, 2015

    I doubt oxytocin has any effect on non-pregnant women, besides use as a shaming tactic to get them addicted to romance.

    There’s plenty of research on the effect of oxytocin on both men and women, actually, mainly in terms of how it affects trust, social cohesion, etc. It does apparently affect men and women somewhat differently, but it’s not a “woman’s hormone” or something.

    I actually don’t really see how it could be used to as a “shaming tactic” to get women “addicted to romance,” actually. If anything, it’d make me feel less inclined to take initial romantic feelings too seriously. Someone I know noted a decade or so ago that it’s easy to have much bigger feelings for somebody than are really warranted once you have sex with them; you could say it’s “just the oxytocin talking,” maybe, though that’d be pretty reductive.

  86. #88 Helianthus
    April 14, 2015

    @ KayMarie

    I concur wholeheartedly.

    [Glycoproteins] are important bits your body needs

    The non-glycosylated form of normally glycosylated proteins are often non-functional. There are actually a few genetic diseases due to improper glycosylation.
    Heck, blood groups are due to specific chains of sugars on the outside of our red cells. And our HLA system is also based on glycoproteins (the molecules used by our immune system to distinguish us versus not-us). You don’t want to mess with either of these carb chains. Our immune system may become a bit confused if half-glycosylated molecules start showing up.

    If we could just stop making them the poor little buggers would be out of luck.

    And this is actually a mechanism of defense, but mostly for the viruses. Change the form of the glycoproteins on the surface of the virus, and suddenly our immune system cannot recognize these proteins anymore.

    Conversely, in a third of the cases of Guillain-Barré syndrome, a carbohydrate chain belonging the bacterium Campylobacter jejuni is triggering an autoimmune reaction against one of our own molecule, because they are highly similar. In this case, we are the ones out of luck…

    gluconeogenesis

    Oh yeah. While I would agree that eating buckets of sucrose is not healthy, going for a no-carb diet isn’t solving much regarding glycoproteins or carbohydrate lattices. A ketogenic diet doesn’t stop people from having about 1 g/l of sugar in blood. It certainly won’t stop our bacteria and yeasts from making sugars out of fatty acids or amino-acids.

    Well, that’s not to say that looking at which human glycoprotein is targeted by some pathogen is useless. There could be ways to disrupt this interaction without penalizing the human protein normal function.

  87. #89 ken
    April 14, 2015

    PgP Sorry to hear that. I had one hell of a post-partum depression in the late 60’s which was treated by a course of about 4 different medications. Luckily it abated after several months.

  88. #90 Narad
    April 14, 2015

    Given that Meato also “thinks” that Alzheimer disease is gut origin (based on nothing whatever in the paper being referenced), I might as well cross this one off the to-do list while I’m at it:

    “We initially predicted that the WFD [whole-food diet] would ameliorate behavioral deficits by enhancing brain insulin signaling and reducing neuroinflammation. In fact, the results indicate that an interaction between transgene driven Aβ deposition and the WFD produced a heightened neuroinflammatory response that coincided with exacerbation of behavioral deficits.”

    P.S. Do not miss this: h[]tp://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2013/12/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel.html?showComment=1386349649469#c3545979288889654122

    In addition to more babbling about insulin (T1D has nothing to do with the pancreas), one is informed that “the main mode of death in a nuclear holocaust is sepsis via translocation of gut microbes.”

  89. #91 herr doktor bimler
    April 14, 2015

    Tim:

    “Curiously, banning tryptophan – a safe, inexpensive, effective, and natural precursor to serotonin – opened the door for Prozac and its imitators which have enjoyed huge financial success in the 1990s as synthetic mood elevators, despite their considerable side effects.”
    http://lightparty.com/Health/5-HTP.html

    That article there — a reprint from a 1999 advertorial in “Alternative Medicine” — is a window into a distant, simpler past, when even the CAM-scammers accepted the pharmaceutical paradigm that framed depression as “serotonin deficiency syndrome”.

    Despite the money invested in developing SSRIs they didn’t work any better than good old-fashioned non-selective tricyclics, but the investment had to be recovered anyway, so we went through the years of “Prozac Nation” SSRI-promotion — and the idea that *everyone* should take them as a dietary supplement whether clinically depressed or not.

    I can’t really blame the Alt-Health grifters for trying to get a slice of the pie.

  90. #92 herr doktor bimler
    April 14, 2015

    Given that Meato also “thinks” that Alzheimer disease is gut origin (based on nothing whatever in the paper being referenced),

    And Parkinsons and MS and all other neurodegenerative diseases yet to be determined.
    All through the mighty power of Passive Voice!
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/26/poor-poor-pitiful-andy-wakefield-dissed-again-this-time-by-the-oregon-senate-committee-on-health-care/#comment-393938

  91. #93 JP
    April 14, 2015

    Despite the money invested in developing SSRIs they didn’t work any better than good old-fashioned non-selective tricyclics, but the investment had to be recovered anyway, so we went through the years of “Prozac Nation” SSRI-promotion — and the idea that *everyone* should take them as a dietary supplement whether clinically depressed or not.Despite the money invested in developing SSRIs they didn’t work any better than good old-fashioned non-selective tricyclics, but the investment had to be recovered anyway, so we went through the years of “Prozac Nation” SSRI-promotion — and the idea that *everyone* should take them as a dietary supplement whether clinically depressed or not.

    I thought that the main reason for preference of SSRIs over TCAs was higher tolerability.

    I do remember at least the tail-end of the whole idea that Prozac and its ilk should be taken as “personality enhancers” by people without any mental health problems at all who just happened to be sort of shy or introverted or whatever. Peter Kramer’s Listening to Prozac was particularly brain-dead and irritating, as I recall. Actually, it’s one of the things that made me avoid any kind of psychiatric treatment for as long as I did.

  92. #94 herr doktor bimler
    April 14, 2015

    I thought that the main reason for preference of SSRIs over TCAs was higher tolerability.

    My recollection is that the “fewer side-effects” rationale came along later, after the initial promotional promises of”less depression” were not supported by facts.

    Tricyclics worked for me although I cannot recommend taking 15 amitriptyline at a time and washing them down with a 1/3-bottle of whisky.

  93. #95 Narad
    April 14, 2015

    Heli, there’s even sugar found in outer space.

    Do tell, Meato. Hand-waving about interstellar grains isn’t going to get you there.

  94. #96 JP
    April 14, 2015

    Tricyclics worked for me although I cannot recommend taking 15 amitriptyline at a time and washing them down with a 1/3-bottle of whisky.

    There’s overall less caution about drinking on SSRIs than on TCAs, but I remember the first six months to a year that I was on them, I had some interesting experiences. I’d be out drinking and feel perfectly fine – after a few beers or so – and then it was like some switch would flip and I’d be suddenly, completely, embarrassingly drunk. Luckily my friends were understanding.

  95. #97 JP
    April 14, 2015

    Wait a minute, fifteen Elavil and a 1/3-bottle of whiskey? I’m glad you made it.

  96. #98 capnkrunch
    April 14, 2015

    TCAs don’t have a terribly forgiving therapeutic window. Wasn’t part of the rationale also that giving potentially suicidal patients easy access to a potentially fatal OD was a bad idea? Not that that rationale is correct, someone who’s serious is going to find a way regardless.

    On the other hand have seen a couple children ingest their parent’s TCAs and can’t help but think reducing that risk is a good thing. Children getting into SSRIs isn’t nearly as dangerous.

  97. #99 herr doktor bimler
    April 14, 2015

    Evidently my heart is not prone to fibrillation.
    Apparently I tried to climb a bookcase under the impression that it was a stairway to heaven or something, then slept for 24 hours.

  98. #100 JP
    April 14, 2015

    TCAs don’t have a terribly forgiving therapeutic window. Wasn’t part of the rationale also that giving potentially suicidal patients easy access to a potentially fatal OD was a bad idea? Not that that rationale is correct, someone who’s serious is going to find a way regardless.

    I was once given scripts for a ridiculous amount of citalopram – to be fair, I was going on a trip to Russia and Poland, so I had a 90-day script, plus a couple, two or three, regular ones, since I was planning to go back to Oregon for a few weeks and would need to go to a different pharmacy, and the psychiatrist I was seeing wasn’t aware of how badly I was doing at the moment, since I tend to understate things. If I’d gotten them all filled, which would probably have been tricky in practice, I’d have had enough to OD. I ended up giving them to a friend and having him give them back to me at a later date.

  99. #101 Keith Bell
    United States
    April 14, 2015

    Speaking of sepsis and translocation of gut microbes, I’ve been learning today about sepsis and autoimmunity:
    “Infections sometimes produce a catastrophic body-wide inflammation known as sepsis. It is thought to strike around a million people a year in the USA alone, up to half of whom die. For years, scientists thought that a bacterial toxin might cause the immune system to malfunction in this way – but sepsis is actually just an exaggeration of one of the usual immune defences against bacteria and other invaders. Instead of acting locally, the immune system accidentally responds throughout the body.”
    http://mosaicscience.com/story/why-do-we-have-allergies

    Perhaps probiotics should be used pre-vaccination to prevent an overactive immune response including anaphylaxis.
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mnfr.201300028/abstract
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1398-9995.2010.02501.x/abstract

  100. #102 Tim
    April 14, 2015

    Thx, herr doktor bimler #686/#692.

    I’m in a bit of a ‘pickle’. I went to one of these ‘order-your-own’ testing labs and underwent *CMP12+8AC+CBC/D/Plt+Ua; … Vitamin B12 and Folate; Tsh; ALT (SGPT, liver function).

    Most of the values came back relatively happy (liver enzymes and whatnot)– Some of the differential white blood cell count is probably attributed to skin irritation from HE detergent. Most. Although I eat salt like candy, my sodium and chloride was flagged low. I have been having episodes of peeing what looks like lowfat milk, off and on. My (formerly perfect) teeth have rapidly resorbed. I note that I now realize I had rhrabdomyolysis from pushing a ‘people powered’ mower while drinking and in the heat a few years ago (deep, thick red-brown pee that immediately fell to the bottom of the bowl — I attributted it to some component of my wet snuff which was of the same color and specific gravity).

    I have been taking the supplement levomefolic acid and .25mg of methylcobalamin but I stopped 72 hours before the test for B12. The B12 came back 1266 pg/ml and folate 18.5 ng/ml.

    I see there are some paradoxical conditions (functional metabolism derated) that can cause some symptoms of deficency yet read high on the test. I also see that serum B12 elevation is not a good sign.

    Simple google points out that you can’t elevate your serum B12 with supplements; Oxford seems to imply a halflife of 6 days.

    I have acidic saliva and my teeth dissolved to deep into the dentin (I lost 2mm, that night) during an 8-hour stint in jail.

    I’m in a pickle because ‘the man’ has it out for me (long sob story) and the last time this happened was a threat of jailtime for the offense of ‘improper lane change’ in a vehicle that was not moving and that I was not occupying. I need to figure this out before telling the clown-in-a-gown, cash-register-in-a-robe to go fuck himself with one of officer Fuckme’s jobdoers.

    I’ve suspected for a few months that I have a PTH secreting tumor somewhere. Serum phosporous was normal and calcium only a little elevated; but I’m literally eating my teeth and peeing it out.

    I’ve not yet got the MMA test or direct PTH test. I’m pretty much without futher funds.

    The pathophysiology of elevated vitamin B12 in clinical practice:
    http://qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/02/27/qjmed.hct051

    ^^ Any comments?? (obviously, the first step would be to ‘retest’ but the blood draw lady had all the comfort of a butch prison guard and I go vasovegal at the sound of ‘next’. )

  101. #103 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    April 14, 2015

    Apparently I tried to climb a bookcase under the impression that it was a stairway to heaven

    Did you find that the stores were all closed? It makes me wonder.

  102. #104 Denice Walter
    April 14, 2015

    I know someone for whom tricyclics actually work _somewhat_ while SSRIs are fraught with difficulty and therefore rejected.
    AND he’s played with alcohol combos as well.

    As I usually remark in cases like this:

    Something is Better Than Nothing
    ( old family motto)

  103. #105 JP
    April 14, 2015

    P.S. – JP would like to give hdb a hug, but in lieu of that, here are some kitties loving on rabbits.

    *duck*

  104. #106 Narad
    April 14, 2015

    I forgot one other glaring issue with the “analysis” by Mr. “Serotonin Is an Amorphous Blob”:

    Why do you think the world is addicted to sugar and carbs? It’s a feel-good diet, a temporary fix, raising insulin to remove competing amino acids allowing tryptophan into the brain to raise brain serotonin. This should be common knowledge

    Leaving aside the small issue that rats aren’t people, the effect of ATD – the very existence of which in the general public has been skipped by the GIT Expert – on TRP/∑ LNAA is abolished in rats by the addition of 5% high-quality protein to the meal.

    Therefore, cheese fries, Boston crème doughnuts, and allies are safely nonaddictive.

  105. #107 Keith Bell
    United States
    April 14, 2015

    #691 Thanks so much for digging-up that June, 2013 post on Dr. Perlmutter’s Facebook page. This was a time when I constantly teasing him for having a sterile construct, pre-bestseller, Grain Brain. I’d like to think I had a hand in his becoming a champion of the subject with the release of his new book this month:
    “Brain Maker: The Power of Gut Microbes to Heal and Protect Your Brain–for Life”
    http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Maker-Microbes-Protect-Brain%C2%96/dp/0316380105/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

    And his new peer-reviewed journal, Brain and Gut, is supposed to begin 2016.
    http://www.liebertpub.com/images/cover.ihax?w=209&id=2391&g=

    When will the vaccine industry finally acknowledge role of the gut in damaging the brain?

  106. #108 capnkrunch
    April 14, 2015

    MO@702
    I hope he’s changed the road he’s on. If not, there’s still time in long wrong.

    Denice Walter@703
    My understanding was that TCAs are still the go to for otherwise refractory depression. They’re safe as water compared to MOAIs.

    JP@703
    That’s a hug everyone benefits from.

    Kind of seems like clinical depression is somewhat overrepresented here. I wonder if that’s really the case and if so why. Anyone on SNRIs? I take (generic) Effexor and also took Wellbutrin to quit smoking. I’ve been on everything up to risperidone and SSRIs didn’t do much and everything else was too side effect-y (I must have a predisposition to extra pyradimidal effects because I had them pretty much whenever they were an option).

    Nothing is quite as effective as good old ETOH in my experience. You guys probably know how that goes in the long run though.

  107. #109 Denice Walter
    April 14, 2015

    @ capncrunch:

    Right.

    And depression overrepresented? Perhaps. Also, people who like to write and who enjoy alcohol. Sure.
    Sounds like a winning combination which has been noted in other places than RI.

  108. #111 capnkrunch
    April 14, 2015

    Keith Bell@708
    There’s been a lot of talk of how intestinal injury might cause neuro injury. Even if you could make a good case for that (which you haven’t) you still are missing the more important part: how vaccines cause the initial gut injury. Ideally you’d be able to cite some good references to back your points but absent even a single study you should still be able to demonstrate prior plausibility. Your assignment is:
    How do vaccines cause gut injury? Be specific and use your own words. Where relevant cite sources to support your position, not as your argument.

    I’m also still waiting to hear why you think that CAD study was relevant enough to cite twice.

  109. #112 JP
    April 14, 2015

    Kind of seems like clinical depression is somewhat overrepresented here.

    Well, maybe it’s karma.

    I take (generic) Effexor and also took Wellbutrin to quit smoking. I’ve been on everything up to risperidone and SSRIs didn’t do much and everything else was too side effect-y (I must have a predisposition to extra pyradimidal effects because I had them pretty much whenever they were an option).

    I took Wellbutrin in addition to Lexapro for almost a year. It kept me up at nights, and I was given a script for Trazadone to help with sleep, and the whole thing started to seem like a big clusterf*ck to me, which is one of the reasons I ended up going off of meds in general.

    Nothing is quite as effective as good old ETOH in my experience. You guys probably know how that goes in the long run though.

    This is the traditional coping strategy among my dad’s side of the family. My dad himself became a teetotaler a couple years before having kids, I think partially in reaction to the general family tendency. (Well, he also totaled his car one night and got a very stern talking-to from my maternal grandfather, a big, imposing Norwegian dude: “You are godd*mned lucky my daughter wasn’t in that car with you.”) On the other hand, he’s the one who ended up blowing his brains out, so one of my rationalizations for my own behavior is, “Well, at least the drunks are still alive.” He was also forever taking responsibility for everyone and everything, so one of my own reactions to that has apparently been to just be a crazy f*ck-up.

  110. #113 herr doktor bimler
    April 14, 2015

    Nothing is quite as effective as good old ETOH in my experience.

    Beer & akvavit are a cultural heritage rather than a personal choice.

  111. #114 Denice Walter
    April 14, 2015

    I drink gin in order to remember my ancestor who produced excellent products the formulae of which he sold for real money. So it’s a tribute to him. That’s all.
    And I am named after Dionysus thus excusing the wine.

  112. #115 shay
    April 14, 2015

    Doesn’t tryptophan show up in white wine, or am I thinking of something else?

    I know a nice Spaetlese always makes me feel better.

  113. #116 herr doktor bimler
    April 14, 2015

    Not sure about tryptophan, but red wine is known to actively repel wheat-based carbohydrates.

  114. #117 Keith Bell
    United States
    April 14, 2015

    Vaccination can lead to hyperactive immune response based on microbial predisposition where the gut is damaged first. This mechanism is illustrated by the new MS paper linked at the beginning of my article:
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140904084603.htm
    http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/vaccine-injury-first-gut-then-brain

    No studies exist about how any of the childhood vaccines affect gut flora balance or how microbes present affect childhood vaccine response.

    The rotavirus vaccine is now part of the government vaccine injury compensation program for causing severe intestinal injury: intussusception.

  115. #118 KayMarie
    April 14, 2015

    Funny how many of these OMG vaccines cause this thing are caused with startling regularity by getting the disease. Generally at much higher rates.

    But better your kid gets a serious complication from an all natural illness, right?

  116. #119 KayMarie
    April 14, 2015

    http://jvi.asm.org/content/80/24/12377.full While it is a study in mice looking to the mechanisms notes the various infections associated with this problem.

    It is a relatively common problem and to date the most likely cause is GI infections. I mean how do you account for all the times it happened before the vaccine came out?

  117. #120 Tim
    April 14, 2015

    Any differential diagnosis to distinguish between

    lyme
    brucellosis
    hiv

    ??

  118. #121 Tim
    April 14, 2015

    ‘improper lane change’ in a vehicle that was not moving and that I was not occupying.

    ^^ That came out abit ‘glib’, didn’t it?

    The vehicle was 90 ft off the road in a parking lot where I was invited by the owner to attend a 4’th festival. My bedroll was 300 ft from the truck. It probably didn’t help my case that, upon grilling, I informed the officer that I did not wish to take him to the owner because “You are a cop; I’m not the one to be inviting flies to the picknick.”

  119. #122 capnkrunch
    April 15, 2015

    Keith Bell@717
    You couldn’t craft a meanful thought if someone held a gun to your head and said “think,” huh?

    Vaccination can lead to hyperactive immune response based on microbial predisposition where the gut is damaged first.

    All you’ve done here is restate yourself. How does the normal immune response or even an exaggerated one become an autoimmune response? How does the microbiome factor in exactly?

    This mechanism is illustrated by the new MS paper linked at the beginning of my article:

    See, this is exactly what I wanted to avoid when I said DO NOT use papers as your argument. Your MO seems to be make vague general statements that go something like “vaccine…microbes…gut…brain” without explaining how they one follows the other. Then you cite an article that contains some or all of the words you just used without explaining what about your statements it supports. It’s like the underpants gnomes.

    Please explain step by step for me. When you cite a source say why. Not “the me mechanism in this paper” but actually say what the mechanism you are referring to is. That’s the proper way to use a reference. Explain your ideas like you are talking to the brain dead Pharma sh(eep)ill you know I am.

  120. #123 Politicalguineapig
    April 15, 2015

    Ken: “I had one hell of a post-partum depression in the late 60’s which was treated by a course of about 4 different medications. Luckily it abated after several months.”

    If that’s true, then why do you hate doctors so much? How come you’ve told your ‘kids’ never to take your ‘grandchildren’ to doctors and want everyone in your circle to use homeopathy and naturopathy instead?

  121. #124 Politicalguineapig
    April 15, 2015

    HDB: Aquavit is one of those things I just don’t get. I assume it gets you drunk quick enough that the taste isn’t noticeable.

    KBell: You do realize Rotashield was recalled? That it’s no longer used at all?

  122. #125 Narad
    April 15, 2015

    KEITHBELL’s only real superpower, running like hell from details, is once again losing its amusement value; the continued linking to press releases, while gratuitously highlighting the dismal substitute that his Gut Brain has provided in lieu of actual thinking doesn’t help.

    Yet, there is one nugget of gold that has turned up in the Wide Wide River:

    And his new peer-reviewed journal, Brain and Gut, is supposed to begin 2016.
    h[]tp://www.liebertpub.com/images/cover.ihax?w=209&id=2391&g=

    In consequence, I now have one more reason to view The Butterfly dimly: they have outdone Elsevier by creepifying NIH Public Access Policy as follows:

    “Liebert, Inc. publishers will deposit the final accepted article (after copy-editing and proofreading) to PubMed Central (PMC) on behalf of the authors. Authors need not take any action. The manuscript’s public access posting on PMC will occur 12 months after final publication. This service is provided free of charge. Please note that authors may not deposit manuscripts directly to PMC or other sites without permission from Mary Ann Liebert, Inc.

    Um, that would be a big GFY negatory, Mary Ann.

  123. #126 Narad
    April 15, 2015

    ^ The boldface from “ction.” through “that authors” is a screwup.

  124. #127 Helianthus
    April 15, 2015

    @ JP # 706

    Weeeeeh! So cute!
    I love cats.

    And hdb, I’m glad too you’re around.

    @ Narad

    “the main mode of death in a nuclear holocaust is sepsis via translocation of gut microbes.”

    That’s… an interesting way to put it.
    I would have thought that a disrupted immune system and breached intestinal walls would be cause for concern.
    It’s a bit like saying that the main mode of death in plane accidents is hitting the ground.

    “main mode”? Ruptured intestines will happen in the fraction of people which were close enough to ground zero to receive a lethal dose of radiation, but far enough to survive the blast itself and the heatwaves.

    Fallout will be an issue for the survivors, and I wonder if sepsis is really the main concern.

    (anecdotal in a gruesome way, that reminds me of an article I read a dozen years ago about Hiroshima survivors. One Japanese, who was still alive by then, was close enough to the blast to have one of his arm melted by the heat)

  125. #128 Narad
    April 15, 2015

    The rotavirus vaccine is now part of the government vaccine injury compensation program for causing severe intestinal injury: intussusception.

    Whoops.

    “XI. Rotavirus vaccine   No Condition Specified”

    “(3) Rotavirus vaccines (Item XI of the Table) are included in the Table as of October 22, 1998.”

    RotaShield was licensed 1998 August 31. The Senate amendment bill was introduced 1998 October 22 (144 Cong. Rec. 24,560) with no mention of a contraindication – it’s necessary to authorize the excise tax first. Earliest reported intussusception onset date was 1998 November 21 (48 MMWR 577).

    Oh, wait, silly me. Your inability to read of course extends to an inabllity to write.

    It will not be until 2015 July that “now” may arrive.

  126. #129 herr doktor bimler
    April 15, 2015

    “main mode”? Ruptured intestines will happen in the fraction of people which were close enough to ground zero to receive a lethal dose of radiation, but far enough to survive the blast itself and the heatwaves.

    IIRC, the US armed forces invested a lot of research into the question of what level of performance could be expected from troops who had been irradiated to various degrees and were dead men but still walking. At one end of the exposure spectrum there is the “brain death” cohort whose lifespans are limited by the damage done to neural membranes by the ionizing radiation; they might shamble around for a few hours (showing little difference if they’re Marines) until too many cells die and they can’t brain any more. At the other end are the “blood death” cohort who have only had the equivalent of full-body radiotherapy in the absence of a bone-marrow donor; their lifespan is limited by their supply of red and white blood cells. In the middle is the ‘bowel death’ range where epithelial cells have also taken a lethal hit (fast-dividing, therefore vulnerable), and after a few days when they all die you no longer have an intestinal wall and the gut bacteria have an entire body laid like a banquet before them.

    Such was the theory, anyway. I imagine that Chernobyl provided a lot of data points.

    Teh Merck Manual informs me that these are now known as Cerebrovascular syndrome, Hematopoietic syndrome and Gastrointestinal syndrome respectively.

    You could describe that third scenario (6 to 25 Grays) as “translocation of gut microbes”, I suppose.

  127. #130 herr doktor bimler
    April 15, 2015

    I assume it gets you drunk quick enough that the taste isn’t noticeable.

    “Taste”? Akvavit has a thousand tastes. All vile, but subtly different.

  128. #131 Krebiozen
    April 15, 2015

    Keith Bell,

    Speaking of sepsis and translocation of gut microbes, I’ve been learning today about sepsis and autoimmunity:

    Then why do you link to an article about a scientist’s research on IgE that mentions sepsis only in passing, because of the scientist previous work on toll receptors, and nothing at all about autoimmunity?

    Why do you follow that with a complete non sequitur?

    Perhaps probiotics should be used pre-vaccination to prevent an overactive immune response including anaphylaxis.

    Accompanied by links to two articles about food allergies in mice that have nothing at all to do with vaccines?

    I find watching your inept blundering around misunderstanding and misinterpreting cherry-picked studies is horrifying and fascinating in equal measure.

    BTW, you might find it less time-consuming to list things that you don’t think are intimately linked to the microbiome.

  129. #132 Keith Bell
    United States
    April 15, 2015

    Kay, thanks for posting that paper #720. Risk of intestinal injury by vaccination especially high in preterm infants where flora is undeveloped, i.e., high LPS-producing gammaproteobacteria. Current, cruel protocol is to vaccinate as full term when weighing 2.2 lbs..

    Similarly, people like Narad and Orac who were not breastfed suffer low protective Bifidobacteria which would otherwise regulate immune response in Peyer’s patches. Unfortunately, they were also spanked heavily as children leading to low self-esteem, substance abuse and criminal behavior. Corporal punishment is now banned in 46 nations:
    http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/pages/progress/prohib_states.html
    (Narad, do you spank and/or humiliate your children?)

    capn, who’s guarding your Peyer’s patches, training your immune system? Are they Bacteroides, Firmicutes or Actinobacteria? Are they LPS-producers? It makes a difference, perhaps life and death.
    “Researchers also were surprised to find that bacteria present in the body’s gut flora, also known as commensal bacteria, helped the human norovirus infect B cells. Karst said scientists have long known that noroviruses need a particular kind of carbohydrate to infect cells . . . UF scientists detected virus in Peyer’s patches, pockets of lymphoid nodules that line the intestine and survey the organ for pathogens.”
    http://www.news4jax.com/news/uf-researchers-discover-how-to-cultivate-norovirus-in-human-cells/29571716

    I suggest capn do some research on the reciprocal relationship between microbes and host immunity. Links can be found in Part 2 of my series:
    http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/critical-role-microflora-vaccine-injury

  130. #133 KayMarie
    April 15, 2015

    Just how do the following critters tell you anything about pre term infants, or give you full knowledge of any human’s infancy of spanking??

    “Specific-pathogen-free female outbred CD-1 or inbred BALB/c mice were obtained from Charles River Laboratories (Portage, MI) and were 6 to 8 weeks of age at the time these studies were undertaken. Mice were divided randomly into treatment groups, housed in microisolator cages, and provided with autoclaved water and laboratory autoclavable rodent diet 5010 (Purina Mills, Inc., St. Louis, MO) ad libitum. For rotavirus infections, the mice were moved to a physically separated animal facility and housed under BSL-2 conditions. ”

    These are mice who were in the study during mouse puberty, not even infant mice.

  131. #134 Dangerous Bacon
    April 15, 2015

    This weird obsession with intestinal flora and vaccines almost has me nostalgic for the Th1Th2 crowd.

    The common thread is Google U. students who quote science without comprehending it, while lecturing those who actually do.

  132. #135 Calli Arcale
    http://fractalwonder.wordpress.com
    April 15, 2015

    Radiation can do a whole lot of nasty to the body, and not all of the US Army’s work on radiation mortality was planned. The story of the Demon Core is instructive; it provided a lot of unscheduled radiation exposure data in two different criticality accidents. (It was later destroyed during an atomic bomb test.) It killed two people directly, and many of the survivors participated in studies to determine how their bodies were responding to the exposure. The two that died directly were Harry Daghlian (fell into a coma soon after the accident and died 25 days later of acute radiation radiation syndrome, specifically affecting the generation of new blood cells; numerous blood transfusions failed to save his life) and Louis Slotin (who was mostly affected in the intestines). Slotin’s case would be the most interesting to Mr Bell, as gangrene due to severe intestinal damage was certainly a factor in his death. Wikipedia describes “severe diarrhea, reduced urine output, swollen hands, erythema, massive blisters on his hands and forearms, intestinal paralysis, gangrene, and ultimately a total disintegration of bodily functions”. Observers present during the test (many of whom had to be treated for severe radiation poisoning) reported seeing a flash of blue light and perceived heat on their bodies; it’s never been clear whether these were actual sensations or whether the radiation was triggering nerves — both are entirely plausible, and difficult to judge as the exact dose isn’t known due to film badges having accidentally been left in their locked, lead-lined safe during the accident, making them useless. Slotin himself also reported a sour taste in his mouth during the excursion.

  133. #136 Politicalguineapig
    April 15, 2015

    KBell: Dude, you might want to tone down the projection. Right now, you’d rival an Imax. You’re already an unpleasant specimen-calling you a slime mold would be an insult to those hardworking critters- do you really have to cement your image as a bottom-feeding scumbag. (Apologies to the catfish.)

  134. #137 Keith Bell
    United States
    April 15, 2015

    Bacon, is all this talk of intestinal flora giving you the heebie-jeebies here in Sterile Orac World™? Feeling queasy?

    The sterile “Th1Th2 crowd” has also yet to integrate flora in their understanding of the immune system. But they’ll get around to it. How about mothers doing everything they can pre-pregnancy including probiotic therapy if necessary to help avoid vaccine injury? Or, do healthy people even need vaccines? Remember, 95% of all polio cases are asymptomatic.
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1398-9995.2010.02501.x/abstract

  135. #138 Keith Bell
    April 15, 2015

    pig, I was quite sorry to learn about your depression. You really should research gut-brain connection which you absurdly doubt even exists. Are you obese by chance?
    http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=210608

  136. #139 KayMarie
    April 15, 2015

    “The sterile “Th1Th2 crowd” has also yet to integrate flora in their understanding of the immune system. ”

    Trolls are sterile?

    They look kinda grimy to me, and FSM knows they seem to reproduce like rabbits.

    Anyone want popcorn while we wait to see how Kbell tries to use FSM in a sentence?

  137. #140 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    April 15, 2015

    Keith bell:

    Risk of intestinal injury by vaccination especially high in preterm infants where flora is undeveloped, i.e., high LPS-producing gammaproteobacteria.

    Citation needed for this claim. There are currently no good, plausible, repeatable studies to in support of your claim.

  138. #141 Politicalguineapig
    April 15, 2015

    KB: STOP BEING CREEPY.
    There’s a reason I’m skeptical about the g-b connection, most of the supporters are discredited whackaloons or grifters. As for the other stuff- I don’t share personal info on the net, especially not with creeps.

  139. #142 Keith Bell
    United States
    April 15, 2015

    #684, not impressed by the Fernstroms of Pittsburgh where their sterile view doesn’t include effect of exercise on insulin sensitivity:
    https://www.thieme-connect.com/DOI/DOI?10.1055/s-2000-8847
    http://www.ijbnpa.org/content/10/1/10

    Julian, doctors can barely tell the difference between NEC and intussusception in preterm infants. Meanwhile, it’s now known flora is based on gestational age such that preterm infants are high in gammaproteobacteria:
    http://www.pnas.org/content/111/34/12522.abstract

    Is there any wonder preterm infants would be at greater risk of autism by vaccination? How can we have the nerve to stick a needle into any newborn (NOT done in Europe) leave alone a 2.2 lb. infant? Barbaric Orac World™.

  140. #143 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    April 15, 2015

    Keith Bell:

    Is there any wonder preterm infants would be at greater risk of autism by vaccination?

    Yes, there is wonder. Your comment above is a complete non-sequitor. How would vaccination either:
    a) interact with the gut flora to cause damage? (And don’t mention “leaky gut”. That’s discredited) or;
    b) change the gut flora in such a way that changes resulting in autism occur?
    I believe you are begging the question. You started with the premise that vaccines cause autism, and you are looking for ways to see how that could be, but there is no evidence that vaccines cause autism.

  141. #144 capnkrunch
    April 15, 2015

    Keith Bell continues to quote and cite papers without actually explaining why. His posts are emtpy word salad that fails to be even internally consistent. He continually fails to make direct responses to criticism. All this was starting to bore me already but now he’s insulted Orac’s and Narad’s parents. That’s just something you don’t do. I’m going to walk away because I refuse to engage someone who thinks that is acceptable. Keith Bell, thank you for the amusement and for once again demonstrating just how dispicable the antivax movement can be. On top of being a willfully ignorant fool you are a terrible human being.

  142. #145 capnkrunch
    April 15, 2015

    Anyone like the idea of Sterile Orac World™ brand homeopathic probiotics?

  143. #146 Keith Bell
    United States
    April 15, 2015

    Julian, thanks for approaching the heart of the matter. How do vaccines interact with gut flora to cause damage? It’s the flora regulating immune response, so different types of flora have a different immune effect. Flora is different by individual, race and gender.

    capn, thanks for trying to understand the concepts and flesh them out. Please remember the tone of this blog is about insolence, so it’s perfectly acceptable to mock the vaccine injured as well as point out how Orac was repeatedly punished in his youth as analogy to the current vaccine schedule.

  144. #147 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    April 15, 2015

    Keith Bell:

    It’s the flora regulating immune response, so different types of flora have a different immune effect.

    Your answer is deeply unsatisfactory. It simply raises more questions.
    Where is your evidence that the vaccines alter the gut flora?
    What evidence do you have that the gut flora regulates the immune response?
    You say flora differs from person to person. How do these differences have an effect and what evidence do you have that they do?

  145. #148 Narad
    April 15, 2015

    On top of being a willfully ignorant fool you are a terrible human being.

    Oh, this has been known for some time. At this point, he’s just flailing wildly again to try to distract from the explicit, abject failures that inevitably result when someone bothers to actually pay attention to his random spew.

    Since his entire post-recycling identity is seemingly built on his routine’s making him RLY SMURT, it’s little surprise that what oozes out is malodorous when the gut–brain connection in his case is demonstrated more accurately to be a shіt–head connection.

  146. #149 shay
    April 15, 2015

    He’s going to stay here until he can get a reply from Orac. This is Gergles all over again (not to mention Johnny Manynames).

    Unless they can get some kind of reaction from our esteemed box of blinky lights, their lives have no meaning.

  147. #150 Narad
    April 15, 2015

    As a case in point:

    so it’s perfectly acceptable to mock the vaccine injured

    Along with the return to Peyer’s patches, this makes it quite clear that he’s been reduced to trying to have a do-over of his previous dismal appearance.

  148. #151 Keith Bell
    United States
    April 15, 2015
  149. #152 Narad
    April 15, 2015

    I’ve written four published articles in attempt to inspire research and concern regarding your questions

    Five’ll get you 10 that he also doesn’t understand what “rel=nofollow” means.

    In other news, his “published articles” are merely the exact same crap that he’s been dribbling out here gathered into larger piles.

  150. #153 Narad
    April 15, 2015

    This thread has actually managed to surpass this one on the spamvertising front, with nine comments devoted to trying to drive traffic to GMI versus five the last time.

  151. #154 Keith Bell
    United States
    April 15, 2015

    Narad, would love to see your published articles/papers. Are there any you’d like to share? But I understand, you’d rather remain anonymous.

    Btw, several of your recent responses/arguments have actually caused me to feel sorry for you. Seriously, I’m finding you to be quite out of touch. I don’t like feeling sorry for you because you obviously have a lot of potential. Kreb, on the other hand, appears to be a lost cause; quite a dinosaur, believing the only problem with dietary sugar is obesity.

  152. #155 Chris
    April 15, 2015

    Mr. Bell: “Narad, would love to see your published articles/papers.”

    I am still waiting for you to post the verified documentation dated before 1990 that the MMR vaccine has caused the issues you attribute to it in the USA during the 1970s and 1980s. Less then ten year blog posts do not count.

  153. #156 Narad
    April 15, 2015

    Narad, would love to see your published articles/papers.

    Note the sadly defensive escalation. I’m reminded of back when John Stone used to boast that he had Pubmed-indexed “published papers” that ultimately turned out to be two letters to the editor amounting to four or five column-inches total.

    I have no need to try to boast about poorly reasoned, high-school-level, three-page essays that have been “published” by Sayer Ji; I don’t hold myself out as a writer, much less as a researcher and science writer, which you embarrassingly do.

    The demonstrated fact that you can’t even coherently respond to freaking blog comments that people have wasted their time composing only to have you studiously avoid them is more than adequate to demonstrate the point.

    Btw, several of your recent responses/arguments have actually caused me to feel sorry for you. Seriously, I’m finding you to be quite out of touch. I don’t like feeling sorry for you because you obviously have a lot of potential. Kreb, on the other hand, appears to be a lost cause; quite a dinosaur, believing the only problem with dietary sugar is obesity.

    As though the point needed hammering home, that is. This is simply pathetic sniveling. Anyone with two neurons to rub together would readily appreciate that Krebiozen – among many others here – is vastly more knowledgeable than I am in addition to being blessed (or cursed) with a saintlike patience.

    Despite the bluster, you’re merely a classic sad sack. It’s time to pick up your marbles until you have another “published article” to promote on another unrelated comment thread.

  154. #157 doug
    April 15, 2015

    I think I’m going to name my toilet the Bell jar.

  155. #158 JGC
    Cart before the horse, keith,
    April 15, 2015

    How do vaccines interact with gut flora to cause damage?

    I’m sorry, but you’ve yet to demonstrate that vaccines do interact with gut flora and cause the damage you claim they do.

  156. #159 Narad
    April 15, 2015

    I think I’m going to name my toilet the Bell jar.

    Beats the oven.

  157. #160 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    April 15, 2015

    What test could one do on one’s gut flora to show that one would not be affected by the various complications of, say, polio? Besides being injected with the polio virus, I mean.

    Thanks.

  158. #161 Bill Price
    April 15, 2015

    Narad, speaking truth to Keith Bell:

    Despite the bluster, you’re merely a classic sad sack.

    Methinks the link I used makes your characterization of KB more appropriate. It’s the classic Sad Sack.

  159. #162 JP
    April 15, 2015

    So “sad sack” basically means the same thing as shlemiel?

  160. #163 Narad
    April 15, 2015

    So “sad sack” basically means the same thing as shlemiel?

    No. He’s done all this before. He knows what’s going to happen. It’s all about craving attention and hoarding indignation.

  161. #164 JP
    April 15, 2015

    I was referring to the comic that Bill Price linked to, actually, which is called “Sad Sack” but presents a classic picture of what I’d think of as a shlemiel.

  162. #165 Narad
    April 15, 2015

    ^ Not even the IWW’s “Mr. Block.”

  163. #166 Bill Price
    April 15, 2015

    According to the PffffT! of all knowledge, the comic’s name was short for the US Army WW2 usage, ‘Sad Sack of Sh¡t’. The similarity to ‘shlemiel’ is left to the reader’s judgment. The applicability to KB is obvious.

  164. #167 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    April 16, 2015

    I asked Keith Bell:

    Where is your evidence that the vaccines alter the gut flora?
    What evidence do you have that the gut flora regulates the immune response?
    You say flora differs from person to person. How do these differences have an effect and what evidence do you have that they do?

    Keith Bell replied:

    Julian, those are excellent questions. Nobody has all the answers yet.

    Yet Keith assumes that vaccines do cause damage.
    Keith, before you can hypothesise how something might be caused, you have to show that it is in fact happening.

  165. #168 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    April 16, 2015

    And I see that JGC @759 beat me to it.

  166. #169 herr doktor bimler
    April 16, 2015

    Keith, before you can hypothesise how something might be caused, you have to show that it is in fact happening.

    This is a recurring rhetorical tactic for Keith. Honest people don’t feel the need to constantly sneak their intended conclusions in through the back door and disguise them as part of the antecedent. Nor do honest people try to disguise the absence of evidence for their idees fixes by resorting to the fraudulent objectivity of Passive Voice and telling that “X is thought” or “Y is believed”.

    It’s almost as if his appearances are simply to pimp links to his screeds in the hope of gaming Google, rather than any intention to change minds.

    Commenters have described Keith’s alarums and excursions as “Gish gallops”. I am also reminded of the Goon Show episode where Friar Balsam stands on Eccles’ shoulders, and Seagoon stands on Balsam’s shoulders, and because they still can’t reach the window, Eccles stands on Seagoon’s shoulders.* Much as Keith dashes from one intellectually-bankrupt claim to another in the hope that the general flurry will leave people convinced that they support one another and together form a coherent scholium.

    * Ladies and gentlemen. The feat now being performed is extremely dangerous and should only be done on radio by experienced idiots.

  167. #170 Narad
    April 16, 2015

    This is a recurring rhetorical tactic for Keith.

    This is nonsense. “Keith” has no conventional identity; “he” and “his” words are merely transient instantiations of a mechanistic Gut Brain.

    Nothing that he types has any meaning unless fully qualified by a dietary and excretory inventory, and even then, the interpretation of the lab results would be casually left as an exercise for the awestruck recipients, who are by definition incapable of even bounding the requisite poles in the KEITHBELL plane.

  168. #171 herr doktor bimler
    April 16, 2015

    incapable of even bounding the requisite poles in the KEITHBELL plane.
    These are Complex Analysis power-words. I do not conduct complex analysis unless someone is paying me.

  169. #172 Narad
    April 17, 2015

    In any event, now that the Power of KEITHBELL’s Gut Brain seems to have finally gotten The Message through again, I’ll note that not even the reply to these guys offers little solace (footnote omitted):

    Although existing positron emission tomography studies in humans are suggestive of serotonergic mechanisms in ATD, improved 5-HT tracer ligands are critically needed to reliably measure endogenous 5-HT. Additional techniques for altering 5-HT function in humans, such as selective receptor antagonists, are also needed. Developing these techniques is especially important because the relevance for humans of ATD studies in rats is
    unclear.

    Perhaps I’ll leave a prediction of what he should blunder into from here in a mayonnaise jar on Funk & Wagnall’s HDB’s doorstep, but the fact that KEITHBELL’s Bifidownership plainly doesn’t encompass competent operation of the magic box with the papers inside, it’s not striking me as particularly pressing.

  170. #173 Narad
    April 17, 2015

    ^ “little much solace”

  171. #174 Narad
    April 17, 2015

    Ah, it turns out that Crockett et al. themselves received a reply in Molecular Psychiatry, although Pubmed doesn’t have a forward link (footnotes omitted):

    Previously we reviewed the literature and concluded that there is no evidence for ATD-induced decreases in rodent, primate or human 5-HT release, unless 5-HT synthesis is already decreased or 5-HT utilization is increased…. [T]he microdialysis studies embraced by Crockett et al. to show ATD-induced reductions in 5-HT release do not provide the direct evidence that is needed to show that ATD decreases extracellular 5-HT concentrations.

    Say good night, Gracie.

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