Pharyngula

Godless clout sometimes works

I’m impressed: the car dealership has backed down on their offensive ad. Their apology is a bit disingenuous — they claim they really don’t remember approving the ad, and they intended it to be humorous, which I don’t really believe — but the letter writing was effective. The minority who phoned in a few cuss words … not so much.

Comments

  1. #1 Benjamin Franklin
    May 29, 2008

    “Rick Kieffe… insisted that he does not remember approving the ad…”

    Yeah, right!

    Add liar to to the list.

  2. #2 Dennis N
    May 29, 2008

    It’s the standard non-apology apology. “I’m sorry that you took offense to my words” kind of thing.

  3. #3 Pablo
    May 29, 2008

    Wow, would you really buy a car from someone who “can’t remember” that they approve obnoxious ads? Is this supposed to be an apology, or an acknowledgement of senility?

    But then again, car dealers commonly try to use their insanity to get us to buy cars.

    “Come see our in-SANE-ly low prices!!!!”

    Do you trust buying a car from someone who is admittedly insane?

    (credit to Paula Poundstone)

  4. #4 Jim C.
    May 29, 2008

    They have also updated their website.

    This statement is provided in response to reaction prompted by a radio commercial that Kieffe & Sons Ford recently ran referring to issues of God in our schools and on our money.

    “For 15 years, Kieffe and Sons Ford has run ad campaigns that focus on current events. We have chosen to do this rather than presenting typical car sales ads. We do this through an agency that develops the material and sends us a package of commercials to review. From this, we select commercials that we distribute to area radio stations. Frequently we emphasize humor and patriotic themes, as we are located adjacent to two military bases. Public response over these 15 years has been hugely positive, often eliciting calls and visits from appreciative individuals. Regrettably, the commercial that has prompted the current objection to religious sentiment (“Under God”, “In We Trust”) was not closely reviewed by our dealership before it went live. The commercial has been replaced. We apologize to all who were offended. It is Kieffe and Sons’ intention to support America and the freedoms that make this country great.”

    Rick Kieffe, President,

    “Frequently we emphasize humor and patriotic themes.” So, what theme were they emphasizing with the “sit down and shut up” ad? Humor? Patriotism?

  5. #5 Matt
    May 29, 2008

    The minority who phoned in a few cuss words … not so much.

    “There is no cause so right that one cannot find a fool following it.” Sometimes the line between being aggressive and being an idiot is kinda blurry.

  6. #6 Greymalkin
    May 29, 2008

    … don’t remember approving the ad…

    But they ran it for how many days without even once thinking “Hey, we didn’t approve this ad!”

    Christians sure do suck at telling lies effectively. Or have we logical thinkers just gotten good at catching them because they lie so very often?

  7. #7 caynazzo
    May 29, 2008

    A few Christians are really good at lying to the rest who spend their lives defending and upholding the lies.

  8. #8 Ref. BigDumbChimp
    May 29, 2008

    Rick Kieffe, owner of Kieffe and Sons Ford in Mojave and Rosamond, insisted Wednesday that he does not remember approving the ad

    F-

  9. #9 steve8282
    May 29, 2008

    And to think this will probably lead to my never buying a Ford again. I bet that was a real giggle for their stockholders.

  10. #10 Techskeptic
    May 29, 2008

    And while that ad is no longer being broadcast, having run its full 90 days earlier this year, it has had an effect on the dealership’s future ads.

    What do you mean they “backed down”? They did no such thing. All they said was they wouldn’t do it again.

  11. #11 Mike Haubrich, FCD
    May 29, 2008

    Why is it so hard for people to just say, “I did a stupid thing, and I apologize. Check out our tent sale this weekend, with an extra $50.00 rebate for atheists and agnostics!”

    I am still not buyng a Ford next time.

  12. #12 Oldfart
    May 29, 2008

    Y’all sound like a bunch of rabid Xians. The guy said the next ad, which they dropped, was supposed to make fun of the Ten Commandments by insisting that it should have been 15 but Mel Brooks dropped the third tablet. He has a sense of humor. You Xians don’t.

  13. #13 Jason Apple
    May 29, 2008

    Chill out everyone, this is good.

    Either they are genuine (unlikely), in which case they corrected their error and made the actual writer of the add (this Horne guy- http://jwhorne2.blogspot.com/) look like a fool.

    Or they are disingenuous, in which case they were shamed into removing their foot from their mouth by an overwhelming negative response.

    Either way, the undoubted avalanche of reasoned, rational, logical phone calls and emails reflects well on us, bad on them. Its not gonna change anything, but its a tick in our column.

  14. #14 Hank Fox
    May 29, 2008

    Some of us are missing the point.

    The point is: Atheists/freethinkers now have the clout to cause a change like this.

    The general public, at least in the form of merchants, are now becoming sensitive enought to recognize that the non-religious are worth caring about.

    Maybe atheists are still the demographic most people wouldn’t want their son or daughter marrying. But if those same people own a car dealership, at least they don’t feel free to say it in public anymore.

    This is progress.

  15. #15 Jay
    May 29, 2008

    I guess they pretty much had to target the irrational consumers. But then, my penchant for evidence-based reasoning has made me a religious skeptic and a Toyota driver.

  16. #16 Tulse
    May 29, 2008

    I don’t believe the explanation, but I’m more than willing to cut the owner some slack and let him save face. This is a solid victory, demonstrating the power of mass action (and that being “uppity” works). I think we should be generous and not get churlish about the explanation.

  17. #17 Snitzels
    May 29, 2008

    What the hell? They STILL didn’t apologize for offending every Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist and any other non-christian they told to sit down and shut up. That wasn’t an apology, it was “we’re sorry you didn’t like it” which is slightly ruder. And then to have the GALL to say (in more or less words) that if you’re not christian you’re an atheist… I guess he didn’t feel any apology was warranted to any other group because they didn’t shout their indignation. I’m all for political incorrectness in advertising, as long as it’s used tastefully and obviously as a parody or joke. I certainly don’t think people need to stand up and cry “foul” every time they’re offended by the least little thing, but THAT was way out of line, as was their rather snide “apology”.

  18. #18 Kseniya
    May 29, 2008

    The guy who penned the ad, a certain JW Horne (beep) doesn’t seem very contrite in his statement over there on the [probably mis-named] Kieffe and Sons website. His attitude is basically this: “Tough shit, you bastard minority.” Oh yeah, and he came out with both guns blazing – the Smith and Wesson Ignoramus .45 and the Winchester Arrogance Semi-Automatic. Cuz “this country was founded on the belief in God,” dontcha know. Oh yeah, and we all should be complaining about “pedifiles on the internet lurking around like a wolf” and high gas prices and Mexicans and stuff, instead of his ad. Tsk tsk. Silly us.

  19. #19 watercat
    May 29, 2008

    To those who complain that a Car Salesman might not be telling the whole truth…

    LOL!!

  20. #20 Kseniya
    May 29, 2008

    (Technically, neither the Jews nor the Muslims were being told to sit down and shut up. Same god, right?)

  21. #21 MartinM
    May 29, 2008

    Technically, neither the Jews nor the Muslims were being told to sit down and shut up. Same god, right?

    Depends who you ask. The more fundamentalist the Christian, the more likely they’ll strenuously object to that statement, at least where Islam is concerned.

  22. #22 GregV
    May 29, 2008

    I guess that’s nice, but realistically it wouldn’t cost him much. If Logic and Reason truly be on our side, then it’s doubtful you’d see an atheist buying a Ford anyway. ;)

  23. #23 vjack
    May 29, 2008

    Just think what we atheists could accomplish if we ever decided to organize!

  24. #24 Glen Davidson
    May 29, 2008

    He probably doesn’t specifically remember approving the ad, because he probably just saw it, didn’t see a problem with it, and gave it his routine approval. He knows that he did approve, but can plausibly deny specific memory of it.

    Truth is, it’s pretty much a standard retraction, neither heartfelt nor especially blaming anyone else. They’re just acknowledging that it didn’t get the results they wanted, and will try something else. Good, unless someone really wants a sorry pound of flesh, or contrition, which I don’t really desire.

    I don’t know how one could conclude from the evidence that the cuss words didn’t help “so much”. I think these guys are pretty much trying to stem the tide of negativity, and I suspect that they’re not differentiating much between negative comments.

    Glen D
    http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

  25. #25 Jens
    May 29, 2008

    Oldfart @#12

    Can you explain yourself? I don’t really care if his next or previous ad was funny. This one really, really wasn’t. It might not mean much to you but I don’t particualrly like being told to shut up.

  26. #26 Alonzo Fyfe
    May 29, 2008

    For atheists to be congradulating themselves on this is as lame as the advertisement itself.

    The ad ran for 90 days. Tell me that nobody at the dealership knew it was being run or discussed it. Of course they approved the ad. They had 90 days to pull it even if they did not review it carefully.

    For an appology, I would not accept anything less than:

    (1) Ending all business relationships with the advertising agency that came up with the ad. Certainly, they do not deserve any business if they produce this kind of garbage.

    (2) Admit that they did harm to innocent people and admit to a moral obligation to provide compensation for the harm done. A significant donation to an organization fighting anti-atheist bigotry would be appropriate.

    Anything less than this, and we are as good as giving permission to any other company or individual to do the same thing.

  27. #27 Mikey M
    May 29, 2008

    ‘the commercial that has prompted the current objection to religious sentiment (“Under God”, “In We Trust”)’

    Was the objection to “religious sentiment” or the command for minorities to “sit down and shut up?”

  28. #28 FastLane
    May 29, 2008

    Cue Nisbet and J the concern troll on how speaking out isn’t an effective frame, and we really should have left this issues for our betters to deal with in 3…2…1….

    *dons his flame retardant suit* =)

    I love the form the standard notpology takes these days, though. Whether it comes from a IDiot, politician, or car salesman, they all follow the same formula.

    And a few irate people cussing at them amidst all the rational comments I don’t see as a total negative either, some people need a (proverbial) flame thrower aimed at them every once in a while…

    Cheers.

  29. #29 sublunary
    May 29, 2008

    Wow, I read the link to the ad writer’s blog at #13. That was apinful. The guy is such a bastard. I only got about a third of the way through the comments. The commenters were well spoken and made a lot of interesting points, but Horne himself- pathetic and unreadable. He states he agrees with his commenters in his first response, then promptly tells them all to sit down and shut up or go fight the real evils of the world – like high gas prices and the guy who sued a school that tried to force his daughter to say the Pledge of Allegience. Ugh.

  30. #30 Geoffrey Alexander
    May 29, 2008

    What’s interesting is that although the dealership has apologized (after its fashion) the advertiser in Oklahoma has just created that new weblog already mentioned and given it the name of the dealership, probably without their permission. As posters have previously mentioned, Horne is anything but apologetic; in fact, the blog itself seems to have been created just for the purpose of fanning the flames with more in-yo-face rhetoric, and in some replies he’s added racism and homophobia to his rant. Anyone care to inform the car dealer himself of this? According to the newspaper article, the dealer himself doesn’t go to church and only considers himself to have “a christian spirit”. Wonder if he approves of what his (former?) ad firm is doing in his name?

  31. #31 sublunary
    May 29, 2008

    apinful = painful, of course.

    Preview, girl. Preview!

  32. #32 Richard Wolford
    May 29, 2008

    I’ve contacted Ford by way of their email letting them know how I feel about the situation, along with links describing the ad which, in turn, link to the actual ad itself. I’ve posed the same question: what if they had asked blacks, Jews, or women to simply sit down and shut up? I’ll post any response I may receive.

  33. #33 caerbannog
    May 29, 2008

    Gawd… I just drove through that place the day before yesterday.

    It has changed very little in the past 30 years or so; IOW it is the same pathetic s***hole it has always been.

    For Southern Californians, driving through Mojave is part of the price of admission to the eastern Sierra.

    I’m not sure which is worse — $4.50/gallon gasoline or having to drive through Mojave twice in one week.

  34. #34 gex
    May 29, 2008

    Jason Apple,

    I would love to have your attitude again. I used be able to think that way about these ‘gaffes’, but after you see it so many times, you realize it is the pattern.

    Say something massively offensive to the minority. Pretend you didn’t realize you were saying it. Offer tepid apology which doesn’t actually apologize for your attitude, just that you got called out on it. Rinse and repeat.

    Just a few weeks ago the second highest ranking executive at my company sent out a very macho-jingoistic-hyperChristian email with comments like “if you disagree you should just leave America”. He thought it was “funny” just like the car dealership. And funny enough, all the white guys in the office thought nothing of it. But all the women and minorities were highly offended. Almost all work stopped at the place that week.

    His apology? “I had poor judgment. I’m sorry if I offended anyone.”

    See, he’s not sorry he sent his hate-filled diatribe to the entire group. He sorry we were offended by it. You see it constantly from those who are intent on marginalizing minority groups.

    And while it may be tempting to think, “Great, he won’t do it again now,” there is always another one to step into the breach, using the term ‘tar baby’ or ‘macaca’ and pretending not to know what it means, etc. And all we are left with is a constant barrage of these loud insults and quiet half-a**ed apologies.

  35. #35 mick
    May 29, 2008

    I’m calling this JW Horne out as a troll. His blog site was created on 5/28/2008. If he was indeed the independent advertiser he claims to be, surely he would have had a webpage or business number? I do not understand why people put so much energy into being hateful and intolerant.

  36. #36 labert
    May 29, 2008

    Here’s a copy of the email I sent them after I read about the ad here:

    TWIMC,

    I have read about your un-American ad campaign, which is a disgrace to the Founding Fathers of our nation who intended that no one group’s religion be forced on others. They also intended that everyone be allowed to voice their ideas; the concept with which you seem to be unfamiliar is called freedom of speech. In complete opposition to those noble men and that great ideal, your instruction to those who don’t share your beliefs, in which you tell them to “shut up,” spits on the Founding Fathers and the bedrock American principles that make this nation great. You should be ashamed. Certainly, true Americans who understand the principles of this nation are ashamed of you.

  37. #37 tsg
    May 29, 2008

    Some of us are missing the point.

    The point is: Atheists/freethinkers now have the clout to cause a change like this.

    What change? He didn’t change his attitude. He’s sorry he said it. He’s not sorry he thinks it.

    The general public, at least in the form of merchants, are now becoming sensitive enought to recognize that the non-religious are worth caring about.

    To how it will affect their bottom line, yes. That they should be more tolerant, no.

    Maybe atheists are still the demographic most people wouldn’t want their son or daughter marrying. But if those same people own a car dealership, at least they don’t feel free to say it in public anymore.

    They should be ashamed to be thinking it.

    This is progress.

    Sorry, I’m not congratulating someone for only robbing the victim and not killing him, too.

    It’s a standard notpology: I’m sorry I said it, but I’m not sorry I still think it’s true.

    And I don’t believe for one second they let a commercial air for 90 days that they didn’t approve and didn’t hear in all that time.

  38. #38 ShavenYak
    May 29, 2008

    If all Kieffe has to complain about are people leaving four letter words in phone messages, he’s got it good. Jeremy Hall has gotten death threats from Christians.

  39. #39 Siamang
    May 29, 2008

    I remember when Barney’s Beanery restaurant in West Hollywood California posted a sign that said “Fags Keep Out.”

    This says more about the people who write and even think such things than it does about atheism or any minority group.

    And yeah, it’s a non-pology. I’m sorry if they’re offended that my next car is a Toyota. It’s not the bigotry, it’s the fact that Fords suck… I’ve had two in my lifetime. That’s more than enough.

  40. #40 Monado
    May 29, 2008

    There are two ways to say, “I’m sorry I said that.”

    One is, “I didn’t realize how it would sound to you. I can see how it would be offensive. I’ll be more aware in the future nd I won’t do it again.”

    The other is, “I’m sorry you were offended. (Jeeze, lighten up a little, would you?)”

    It sounds like we’re hearing the latter.

  41. #41 tsg
    May 29, 2008

    There are two ways to say, “I’m sorry I said that.”

    One is, “I didn’t realize how it would sound to you. I can see how it would be offensive. I’ll be more aware in the future nd I won’t do it again.”

    The other is, “I’m sorry you were offended. (Jeeze, lighten up a little, would you?)”

    It sounds like we’re hearing the latter.

    Yes. It really comes down to whether or not “I’m sorry I said it” is followed with “but I meant it”.

    Basically, they’re sorry they said it out loud.

  42. #42 Akheloios
    May 29, 2008

    An apology, even the pseudo-apology here, that specifically mentions atheist pressure is great. It shows we are starting to grow some teeth, not just to each other, but to that poor persecuted majority, the religious.

    Go us!

  43. #43 Interrobang
    May 29, 2008

    tsg, I see where you’re coming from, and I don’t think we need to be giving the guy any cookies, but on the other hand, I don’t think anybody is. I think most people here are happy that there was a response at all, rather than the SOP where the ones with the privilege just ignore the minorities’ complaints because they can. A notpology is better than “Fuck you! *delete*” Getting a bigot to stop saying bigoted things in public is better than having to suffer them keeping on keeping on.

    I personally don’t believe outside pressure ever has that much effect on the way bigots think, so I don’t think “getting them to stop thinking that way” is an object. Either the person will realise they’re prejudiced for themselves, or they won’t. Getting the bigots to take their bigotry inside isn’t about the bigots; it’s about all the other people who come into the bigots’ line of fire.

    Hate anybody you like in private, and I have no problem with it. Hate anybody in public, and then we start to disagree. (Or, to rephrase it more tritely, your right to swing your fist ends at the end of my nose.)

    This is in fact a partial victory — and at this point, half a loaf is about all we can expect. We do need to keep agitating, but an entire culture doesn’t turn on a dime, either. (Case in point, western culture has had at least 200 years of feminism — dating from Mary Wollstonecraft’s 1792 A Vindication of the Rights of Woman — and we’re still not completely “there” yet.)

  44. #44 Jason Apple
    May 29, 2008

    Gex –

    I don’t really disagree with anything you’ve said. Actually, i think you made my point in a way. I don’t expect that it is a sincere apology, and in fact it is a little half a**ed. And I’m sure that if it were hate speech against another group than atheists, they would have been more sincere. But that’s my point. I’m not expecting much, I’m just happy that we got it.

    They were shamed enough into posting a reply on their main page, which brings the ignorance of the ad into even more exposure. Plus, the Horne guy is revealed as a total blowhard.

    Its not gonna change the world, not gonna make atheists any more “trusted”, not gonna stop it from happening again. But the most we can hope for is that every time it happens they get knocked back like they got knocked back this time. And not because we cursed at them or told them to shut up, but because we (for the most part) took the high road.

  45. #45 Quidam
    May 29, 2008

    You wouldn’t think that the percentage of atheists is around the same percentage as blacks or Hispanics in the US would you?

    This is bigotry, pure and unadulterated. It should be no more acceptable than it would to say “Kieffe and Sons sells Fords to white folk only. Blacks, Hispanics and Jews can walk”

    But attitudes about blacks have changed enormously in the last 50 years – and they are changing for atheists too.
    Who knows maybe we’ll have an (openly) atheist presidential candidate in another 20 years.

  46. #46 MikeM
    May 29, 2008

    I kind of enjoyed this part of the Californian article:

    Airing on local AM and FM radio in eastern Kern County and the Antelope Valley, the ad has gained a lot of attention on the Internet, where blog posts go on and on about its pro-Christian, anti-atheist message.

    Gee, what does that mean? Your first post on this only got up to 380 comments (I think at least 30% of them were from one guy). It’s not like people accidentally go off on tangents once in a while or anything like that.

    Speaking of tangents:

    Yeah, $4.50 gas… I’m turning 50 this year, and to celebrate, we’re going to Yellowstone for our first time ever. Yay! There’s no good way to fly or train there (the train trip is 2+ days, and then you still have to drive 5 hours) from Northern California. It’s 12 hours to drive, and flying to Spokane or SLC (and when you do that, you still have a one day drive) would cost nearly $2,000. Just going to have to bite the bullet. Oh, and that “side trip” to Seattle adds, well, 900 miles. So, 2,500 miles at 25 mpg (in our Ford Escape!) = 100 gallons = $450.

    Still cheaper than flying (and then renting a car and driving almost as far as we would have had we simply driven the whole way).

  47. #47 Elwood Herring
    May 29, 2008

    “apinful” (#29) – I like it.

    Could be the next misspelling meme on Teh Internetz with a bit of shameless promotion !!1eleven!etc.

  48. #48 Geoffrey Alexander
    May 29, 2008

    Just to make it clear again for the sake of the poor dealership owner who did apologize somewhat, the site we’re speaking of that claims to be his Dealership Site is not: it’s a troll site just created yesterday by the adwriter in OK for the purpose of saying “fuck you all, I’m not really sorry” to us and playing up his rant at the expense of the dealer and the situation he landed him in.

  49. #49 gex
    May 29, 2008

    Jason Apple,

    Agreed. The best revenge is to live well. And I feel better when avoiding the mud. I just need to get better at it!

  50. #50 Kristine
    May 29, 2008

    How come they never say something like, “Forgive us?” That’s kinda weird, no?

  51. #51 Peter Ashby
    May 29, 2008

    Here in the UK you could probably prosecute this as hate speech. However I’m not sure that is the right course as it smacks too much of ‘don’t talk about this, it might scare the horses’. I much more admire your Free Speech rights coupled with people slowly realising that some free speech is going to get them into trouble and/or is beyond the pale in any society.

  52. #52 Peter Ashby
    May 29, 2008

    I agree that ‘apinful’ is a good word. It has an overtone of bee stings about it.

  53. #53 Richard Wolford
    May 29, 2008

    It appears that the blog mentioned above is now gone. Anyone confirm this?

  54. #54 Monado
    May 29, 2008

    It was Shakespeare who said in Hamlet, “act the part of virtue” and it will become more natural. Ghandi said, “Be the change you want to see in the world.” If prejudice and hatred and violence against anyone who wants to be treated equally is shamed, shunned, and retracted however reluctantly, it will help to create a world where people don’t think that way any more. The younger people especially don’t see the point. There’s racism in Canada still, and neglect of First Nations people, and so on. But people are ashamed of it in public and struggle against it in themselves. Seeing others jumped on makes us re-examine out own attitudes.

  55. #55 Cephus
    May 29, 2008

    This kind of thing is not at all uncommon. Years back, we bought a car from a local dealer and for years after (up until recently in fact), we received religious bullshit from the salesman every month that had nothing whatsoever to do with cars, he was just using his client list as a mailing list to spam people with fundamentalist crap. We repeatedly asked them to knock it off, said it was completely inappropriate, they refused.

  56. #56 Monado
    May 29, 2008

    Yes. I’m getting “Blog not found.”

  57. #58 tsg
    May 29, 2008

    @Interrobang #43

    I just can’t consider an insincere apology as a victory of any kind. Call me a pessimist, but I don’t see this a step in the right direction. I see it as just one step fewer, out of several hundred, in the wrong direction. Yes, it’s slightly better than it could have been, but it’s still not nearly good enough. Not by half.

  58. #59 Benjamin Franklin
    May 29, 2008

    Apparently, Horne has taken down his original blog and replaced it with

    https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2256159717187911719&postID=142676016122705528 for comments

    far from being apologetic, Horne says-

    “I think what caused the biggest concern to the negative responders is this. I might just have awaken the silient majority and it just might raise up and tell the others to SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP. Now wouldn’t that be something?”

  59. #60 Geoffrey Alexander
    May 29, 2008

    Ah, he’s dropped the name of the dealership and recreated the blog at his new address, under his own name. Honest at least in that respect. Even more of a fuckwit as the day goes by.

  60. #61 raven
    May 29, 2008

    Horne the Christ-genocidal maniac wannabe:

    “I think what caused the biggest concern to the negative responders is this. I might just have awaken the silient majority and it just might raise up and tell the others to SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP. Now wouldn’t that be something?”

    Yes, we’ve seen this so many times before. One group decides another group is taking up too much space. Next thing you know the “undesirables” are persecuted or dead. The Amalekites, the Canaanites, the Jews, Pol Pot, the Afghani Taliban, the Sunnis, the Shiites, the commies, the capitalists, the catholics, the protestants, the Xians, the Moslems, the Serbs, the Croats.

    History is littered with atrocities of this kind going back to the Old Testament. Guy doesn’t even rise to Christofascist, more like Christo-genocidal maniac.

    Oklahoma, wonder if he is buddies with Keith Eaton. And they really should check their water supply for mind destroying chemicals. And fix up their mental health care system, in the unlikely event that they even have one.

  61. #62 Kenny
    May 29, 2008

    >What the hell? They STILL didn’t apologize for offending
    >every Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist and any other non-
    >christian they told to sit down and shut up. That wasn’t
    >an apology, it was “we’re sorry you didn’t like it” which
    >is slightly ruder.

    Some people will never be happy (like the above). Well at least until there isn’t any religion and then they will not be happy beccause of the emptiness in their lives.

  62. #63 MAJeff, OM
    May 29, 2008

    Some people will never be happy (like the above). Well at least until there isn’t any religion and then they will not be happy beccause of the emptiness in their lives.
    blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

  63. #64 Dennis N
    May 29, 2008

    No religion in my life and I’m happy… I love sleeping in Sunday mornings.

  64. #65 Etha Williams
    May 29, 2008

    @#62 Kenny —

    Well at least until there isn’t any religion and then they will not be happy beccause of the emptiness in their lives.

    Many of us are able to find happiness in our lives without the need for self-delusion. If you can’t, perhaps this (especially in light of your obsession with death and imagined persecution) points to a deeper problem.

    Get psychological help, Kenny. It’s worth it.

  65. #66 Quidam
    May 29, 2008

    #53
    Yes the Blog has been pulled. I took a cache of it and here for posterity is the text. It claims to be the work of J W Horne:

    J W Horne
    I am a husband, father and grand father. I served in the US Army and am proud of that. I own several businesses and a true believer in the word of the Almighty God. If that offends you then thats tough.

    Blog post:

    Thursday, May 29, 2008
    Thats tough
    ————

    Well, well,well now, isn’t it just too bad that so many people got their feelings hurt over on little ole sixty second radio commercial. I find it simply amazing that with all the negative stuff going in this country that so many people are up in arms over a radio commercial. I also am amused by some of the replies. It is obvious that the responders are intelligent and educated and some downright creative. Many of you are very impressive and I congratulate you on your ability to express yourselves. I hope each of you have a full, rewarding and meaningful life. Personally, I think each human being is entitled to happiness, peace and well being. It doesn’t matter to me what your religion, creed or sexual preferance may be. What matters is that each one is a human being and should be treated with courtesy and respect. If we are to improve this country and world, then it is imperative that we all get along. We can disagree yes, but we must each provide the other with the room to be who we are and not interfere with each others lives. I wrote and produced a radio spot that excited a few nerves and suddenly there was an eruption of venomous poison spewing from the key boards of hundreds of computers. Folks there is a lot of hate out there and it shouldn’t be, but the truth is, it is there and should be regarded. In fact the backlash from some of those self styled un-believers is the point I was making about why some people should be told to sit down and shut up. It is not that the un-belivers are trouble makers and have no right to speak, it is just the opposite. Everyone has a right to speak and be heard. I agree with that 100% and I will add that I support their rights to speak. It was my intention when I wrote and produced the ad to encourage others to speak. In that context I was refering to the majority. I think it is time to stand up and speak and take an active role in what happens in this country. I believe that when there are threats to our way of life and our stability then those threats should be answered. I view it as a threat when some one or groups of individuals attempt to cause changes that can be destructive. If people don’t want to recite the pledge of allegiance with the phrase “under God” they don’t have to. However, if they live in this country and want to prosper in this country and enjoy the goodness of this country they should PLEDGE THEIR ALLEGIANCE. By doing so, it means upholding the laws and conducting oneself within the confines of the law. The law is the law. The laws of this society and peoples support of the laws is the fundimental frabric of our society. If a few disgruntled people are allowed to cause, what I believe are destructive, changes to those laws, then those who will be negatively affected by those changes NEED TO STAND UP AND TELL THE OTHERS THAT THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. I happen to believe it is time for the majority in this country to wake up, take notice and then do something. If a few people who prefer to fly under the radar or be underground so as not to be seen, are allowed to cause destruction, then everyone, including them, is in trouble. I think what caused the biggest concern to the negative responders is this. I might just have awaken the silient majority and it just might raise up and tell the others to SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP. Now wouldn’t that be something?

    Posted by J W Horne at 10:25 AM 9 comments

    It seems that the blog has only one message ever and this is it

    Blog Archive
    .? 2008 (1)
    …? May (1)
    ….Thats tough

    It sounds authentic to me and not a parody.

  66. #67 Lord Zero
    May 29, 2008

    Knowlenge about the real, material and tangible world its
    my religion… researching in order to discover
    new facts its my cult, and spanding the joy of learning my preaying…
    That and videogames… im feel my life fullfiled after
    finishing one…

  67. #68 Jon
    May 29, 2008

    What a lame ‘apology’. And of course they use the number one PR escape tool, blame it on someone else. They must have a bunch of chimps (or creationists), approving their ads to let something like this slide-by.

  68. #69 Geoffrey Alexander
    May 29, 2008

    @66 Quidam

    What you have there is the front page of the new blog, not the old one and yes, there is only that one post so far; it seems he’s getting more obnoxious with each incarnation; to see the comments on this one click on the “33 Comments” (it was 33 just a moment ago) at the end of his post.

  69. #70 Jay
    May 29, 2008

    Get over yourself, Kenny. If your life is so full of teh jeebus, why do you bother with a science blog full of atheists? Shouldn’t you be out enjoying the day with your imaginary best buddy?

    Or is there a tickling in the back of your brain telling you that religion just doesn’t make sense? And you are scared of that tickling so you bother us to prove to Big J just how pious you are?

  70. #71 Quidam
    May 29, 2008

    Uh Oh it seems to be back up again.

    http://jwhorne2.blogspot.com/2008/05/thats-tough.html

  71. #72 JeffreyD
    May 29, 2008

    Yes, it is a lame apology, but I am frankly amazed they retracted at all. As others have said above, the minds of the people who wrote and cleared the ad will not be changed, bigots seldom do change. However, they can be shamed into hiding their bigotry. Every time a bigot does not feel comfortable spreading hate, it is a victory for a society. The less hate spread, the more people are willing to treat others fairly, sometimes out of realizing it is best, sometimes because they have learned to keep their mouths shut less they be castigated as the fools they are. In either case, society benefits, people benefit, and another generation hears less thoughtless hate and, with luck, does not learn knee jerk hate responses.

    I live in the real world and know hatreds will not just disappear. I know we still have a long way to go on racism, for example. However, I am old enough to remember “white only” drinking fountains, waiting rooms, and luncheon counters. Those are gone. No, it is not enough, but it is a start. When I tell my children about those days, they cannot believe such things, that encourages me.

    Ciao y’all

  72. #73 J-Dog
    May 29, 2008

    Quidam – If you’re running, you got my vote. We need a President with your mad PhotoShop skillz.

    After Obama’s 2nd term of course. You should start shopping NOW for a “Quidam Girl” to capitalize on the “Obama Girl’s ” trend setting.

    And Congratulations to all that dropped dime on the doofus.

  73. #74 Andreas Johansson
    May 29, 2008

    Christians sure do suck at telling lies effectively. Or have we logical thinkers just gotten good at catching them because they lie so very often?

    Lying is an inherently creative endeavour. The 98% crud rule applies.

  74. #75 Michael J
    May 29, 2008

    I agree that this is positive, not because it is a real apology but more that it shows that some progress has been made. Remember how Bush senior made the comments about atheists leaving America all those years ago and never retracted them. To it shows 2 step:
    1. Atheists have been noisy enough to be noticed in the mainstream.
    2. Atheists are powerful enough to force people to backdown.

    I think that this shows the same process that women, African-Americans and gays have had to go through, we are just at the start of the curve.

  75. #76 gex
    May 29, 2008

    Ugh. Michael J, you just reminded me that I am in all four of those groups you listed. Sometimes I just really hate being so f***ing “other”.

    However, I boost my spirits by thinking that social change has always been slow, but in the information age it has sped up somewhat. These battles won’t take as long, hopefully.

  76. #77 TL
    May 29, 2008

    I haven’t forgotten the Minar Ford (Now new Brighton Ford) prayer meetings.

    Close to home in New Brighton MN.

    http://tinyurl.com/6nkcng

  77. #78 EJ
    May 29, 2008

    I’m inclined to give the guy some credit. He didn’t really have anything to lose if he’d refused to apologize – that part of California is overall VERY right-wing and the bible-beaters are powerful there – in fact if he’d dug his heels in he probably could have used the publicity to gin up some business from the fundies. An atheist boycott of his dealership would have meant jack squat in terms of lost business.

    Bottom line, an apology was requested, and one was received. Regarding some of the comments here, I dunno when so many people in this country decided that when their feelings are offended, they’re entitled to not only demand an apology, but then parse through the wording of the apology and demand that the apology conform to the proper degree of grovelling. It just doesn’t work that way. Obviously this is a general problem by no means limited to Pharyngula commenters, but I sure wish it would stop.

  78. #79 AndyD
    May 30, 2008

    I didn’t hear the ad but on the face of it (reading the quoted bit) I’m not sure I care about it. Are the atheists genuinely offended by the ad, or by the fact it might actually work because there’s an element of truth to the figures? Taking offence looks a little like political correctness gone mad – like nothing, anywhere should ever do or say anything that might possibly, remotely offend anyone. That puts all the skeptical blogs on the blacklist.

    At the end of the day the ad isn’t pushing Christianity, it’s just using a statistical “fact”(?) to try and sell cars to a subset of the community. At least they were being honest about the fact they don’t care about the other 14%. Honesty is a refreshing change for used car ads.

    On a slightly different note, and in reference to the heading in your original post on this ad (What if they wouldn’t sell cars to uppity blacks, Jews, and women?), we have an ad running in Australia that claims blacks are physically superior to whites (athletically) and then promotes a product that will presumably narrow the gap. I can’t remember what it’s selling because it’s just too dumb to pay attention to (I think it’s clothing). I don’t think I’m offended though.

  79. #80 pcarini
    May 30, 2008

    I can’t shake the feeling that perhaps all of the emails CC’d to Ford MoCo had more to do with the apology than anything the dealer might have read.

  80. #81 Matti K.
    May 30, 2008

    Please do not forget that the present state of national economy requires a proper frame on this matter.

    Like an atheist scientist should be first and foremost a scientist and only after that an atheist, an American atheist should be first and foremost an American and only then an atheist.

    We have alrady seen how important it is for the advancement of science for scientists to “lay low” on the matters of atheism. Likewise, the state of national economy requires that atheists do not cause harm to an industry that employs Americans. So please, atheists, lay low on this matter, too, and keep buying the fantastic products of Ford Motor Company.

  81. #82 Kenny
    May 30, 2008

    >Many of us are able to find happiness in our lives without
    >the need for self-delusion. If you can’t, perhaps this
    >(especially in light of your obsession with death and
    >imagined persecution) points to a deeper problem.

    Self-delusion? That is what denial is called now?
    Just FYI, I don’t have an obession with death. It is what it is. Just because you are too ignorant to accept the truth and thus call it delusion isn’t my problem.

    Living in a delusion is what the atheists and yourself are doing here. You call it using buzzwords such as “Reason”, “freethinking”, and “enlightenment”. These buzzwords really just mean freedom from God.

    It’s like someone who is living in a delusional world and says there is no proof for the Holocaust. You give them proof and they plainly deny it and make up some story about it and then they claim you are stupid. Pretty much how I see it.

    I do have more proof I am waiting for the timing to release, but the truth is that if God came down and sat right with you, you would deny him with no doubt.

    That is why I said that it is purely illogical and irrational and unreasonable.

    Deny everything possible there is no proof. No matter what scientific facts are given. There is no reason with an atheist. They pick and choose what science and what proof they want to believe in.

    When you have a totally closed mind, not even to entertain such ideas as God then you are the ignorant one. You are the one that has the issues. You are the simple minded person who cannot grasp whole science and reality, and you lack common sense and common knowledge.

    I am not trying to insult you. I am making my point and it is what it is.

  82. #83 Kenny
    May 30, 2008

    >Here in the UK you could probably prosecute this as hate
    >speech.

    Well, I never agreed with it in the first place. However, it’s a good thing I don’t live in the UK. You could probably get prosecuted for just about anything there. Go communism.

  83. #84 Ichthyic
    May 30, 2008

    I am making my point and it is what it is.

    a steaming pile of crap?

    you need a leash, bad dog.

    rubbing your nose in it obviously isn’t doing any good.

  84. #85 Kenny
    May 30, 2008

    >rubbing your nose in it obviously isn’t doing any good.

    The fact is that you failed and the evidence (name calling and saying that I am ignorant and all without providing any evidence on your own) pretty much makes you unreasonable, illogical and irrational. Which is pretty much what you say you are not. Your actions are clearer than your words. The irony in all this is indeed staggering, but when you attack something you better have a better answer and know what people are talking about.

    It is what it is.

  85. #86 Ichthyic
    May 30, 2008

    The fact is that you failed

    see, PZ?

    that’s why it’s not a good thing to let the delusional hang around, regardless of how badly they’ve been beaten into the ground, repeatedly, the longer you let them shit on your lawn, the more they end up convinced they are doing the right thing.

    don’t you think enough’s enough?

    you’re not doing The Kenny any favors.

    It’s time to call the SPCA and have him put down.

  86. #87 wazza
    May 30, 2008

    Matti K

    Buying “American Made” and insisting on being an american or scientist before being an atheist is a bad idea because 1) the global economy is interlinked; if you don’t buy their stuff, they probably won’t buy yours 2) american cars are gas-guzzlers, and the environment is as important as the economy 3) there should be no conflict between your beliefs and your actions. It’s possible to be an atheist scientist, with neither more important that the other, and an atheist american. And 4) “American” cars are often made in other countries, or using parts from other countries. They’re not entirely american made.

    Don’t buy american to prove your patriotism. American car companies are destroying their own country. Hell, they helped Hitler during world war 2. The best way you could prove your patriotism is to use the most efficient car you can to get to and from your job.

  87. #88 Kenny
    May 30, 2008

    >don’t you think enough’s enough?

    Well just think. If you were not insulting everyone who doesn’t have a world view like you or putting them down and calling them stupid and not even get half of what they are saying, I would not even be here posting.

  88. #89 wazza
    May 30, 2008

    Kenny, you do realise that you just perfectly profiled the modern christian worldview, don’t you?

  89. #90 Ichthyic
    May 30, 2008

    I would not even be here posting

    LOL

    your capacity for denial is astounding, even amongst the many religious nutters that have graced this lawn with their feces.

  90. #91 Kenny
    May 30, 2008

    >Kenny, you do realise that you just perfectly profiled the
    >modern christian worldview, don’t you?

    If you look at the evidence that is presented from Atheists on most of these threads you will see that I perfectly profiled the atheist worldview.

    A lot of the problems and the reactions of Christians are because of the militant atheists. The non-militant atheists are the ones getting hijacked because of your kind.

    Sound familiar? It should.

  91. #92 Ichthyic
    May 30, 2008

    If you look at the evidence that is presented from Atheists on most of these threads you will see that I perfectly profiled the atheist worldview.

    projection.

    A lot of the problems and the reactions of Christians atheists are because of the militant atheists xians. The non-militant atheists xians are the ones getting hijacked because of your kind.

    see? more projection; in this case almost perfect in symmetry.

    the logical conclusion is that you, Kenny, are the problem.

    *psst* (this is where your denial kicks in.)

  92. #93 Ichthyic
    May 30, 2008

    Sound familiar?

    oh yes, it does. I have a database of around a thousand entries documenting every case of a religious nutter who ends up utilizing projection and denial in defense of a collapsing worldview.

    I entered you in it weeks ago, though, and that was really your only value.

    now you’re just stinkin’ up the joint.

  93. #94 Jim C.
    May 30, 2008

    The folks at KGET have a poll up asking if the “sit down and shut up” ad makes you want to buy a car from the dealership. So far, 1/3 say yes, 2/3 say no.

  94. #95 Matti K.
    May 30, 2008

    Wazza: I guess I am no new Jonathan Swift. :-)

    (comment #87 on comment #81)

    Moreover, I am from Europe.

  95. #96 tsg
    May 30, 2008

    Bottom line, an apology was requested, and one was received. Regarding some of the comments here, I dunno when so many people in this country decided that when their feelings are offended, they’re entitled to not only demand an apology, but then parse through the wording of the apology and demand that the apology conform to the proper degree of grovelling. It just doesn’t work that way.

    Yes, it does. The idiot said something stupid and hateful and then issues an apology that says, in sum total, “it wasn’t my fault.” I absolutely can take him to task for that and I bloody well will.

  96. #97 wazza
    May 30, 2008

    ugh, did I just get poed?

    Oh, hey! Let’s go poll-dancing!

  97. #98 Dennis N
    May 30, 2008

    I do have more proof I am waiting for the timing to release, but the truth is that if God came down and sat right with you, you would deny him with no doubt.

    Oh you have proof somewhere? Hiding? It’s bad timing? I have a billion dollars but I don’t wanna spend it now and make other people jealous. I swear. If god came and sat next to me, I would convert. Why wouldn’t I? She’d probably talk with me and tell me evolution is true and she really does hate every group besides her Jews. But, you see, things like that don’t happen. All the big miracles happened thousands of years ago only in ancient texts. That’s how it is in every religion. Coincidence? What would you do if Allah came and sat down next to you?

  98. #99 Nick Gotts
    May 30, 2008

    However, it’s a good thing I don’t live in the UK. – Kenny

    Ah, a statement from Kenny with which I can wholeheartedly agree!

    You could probably get prosecuted for just about anything there. Go communism.

    Kenny, if you really think the UK political and economic system, or the current UK government, have anything to do with communism, you really must be suffering from a delusional psychosis.

  99. #100 Kseniya
    May 30, 2008

    Don’t waste your time.

  100. #101 Dennis N
    May 30, 2008

    So Kenny is also a staunch right wing capitalist who thinks any socialism is communism? I don’t pay too much attention too him, but he really is a stereotype. He is religious, “socially conservative”, homophobic, staunch capitalist, what else?

  101. #102 wazza
    May 30, 2008

    It’s no more a waste of time than punching a pillow is.

    It doesn’t get you anywhere, but it helps with stress relief.

  102. #103 JeffreyD
    May 30, 2008

    Kseniya, re your #100, oh come on, dealing with Kennygasms has now become a guilty pleasure, like laughing at someone falling or watching Bush trying to make a coherent thought without Cheney’s hand up his back. Besides, the “K” has moved into a new level of fascinating personality disorder – he has “secret” information that he has been holding in reserve. Gads, I am already moist from excitement, better cancel that trip to the beach, I want to be among the first (the elect?) to read this information.

    Ciao y’all

  103. #104 Nick Gotts
    May 30, 2008

    Re #100, 101. Well, Kenny’s opposed to the Iraq war, and admits the reality of anthropogenic climate change – so he’s not quite a straight-line Christian right stereotype. It’s that little bit of rationality among all the hooey that convinces me he’s not a Poe, and keeps me responding to him – although I admit this is rather like picking a scab.

  104. #105 Kseniya
    May 30, 2008

    Secret information?

    *perk*

    “No, Mr. Bond – I expect you to gabble!”

  105. #106 Nick Gotts
    May 30, 2008

    Do you suppose Kenny might be preparing to reveal himself as The Messiah? After all, how else can he have proofs of God’s existence available to no-one else?

  106. #107 John Phillips, FCD
    May 30, 2008

    Kseniya:

    “No, Mr. Bond – I expect you to gabble!”

    LOL and our Kenny has proved that only too well. In fact, it is about the only proof of anything he has given us and without us even asking for it.

  107. #108 JeffreyD
    May 30, 2008

    OK, to be fair, Kenny did not say her had “secret” information. In post #82 he stated, “I do have more proof I am waiting for the timing to release”. I made the jump that it might be secret information.

    Ciao y’all

  108. #109 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    May 30, 2008

    I do have more proof I am waiting for the timing to release, but the truth is that if God came down and sat right with you, you would deny him with no doubt.

    This should be good. If it’s anywhere near as good as his “proof” of the validity of NDEs, we are in for a treat.

    and by treat I mean more of the same blabbering monotonous dumbfuckery.

  109. #110 Dennis N
    May 30, 2008

    Hey Kenny, check out your ACLU: The Anti-Christian Lawyers Union.

  110. #111 noncarborundum
    May 30, 2008

    Well at least until there isn’t any religion and then they will not be happy beccause of the emptiness in their lives.

    • Friends
    • Family
    • Music
    • Work
    • Reading
    • Learning
    • Philanthropy
    • Love

    No room left for religion; sorry.

  111. #112 Kenny
    May 30, 2008

    >Kenny, if you really think the UK political and economic
    >system, or the current UK government, have anything to do
    >with communism, you really must be suffering from a
    >delusional psychosis.

    Tell that to the men in white vans trying to track your tv signal down because you happen to own a TV.

    Tell that to the cameras all over London.

    Tell that for telling the truth about homosexuality that it is a sin (saying it not in a hateful way and not doing anything to anyone who is homosexual) and see how you get put into jail for hate speech. Really fine country you got there.

    Soon it will be illegal to practice your religion (no matter how peacefull it is) I am sure.

    The country that I love USA is already going backwards. NYC is starting to put cameras up to invade our privacy even more.

    Wait! This is progress!

  112. #113 Ichthyic
    May 30, 2008

    Tell that to the men in white vans trying to track your tv signal down because you happen to own a TV.

    Hey!

    that reminds me:

    I have some great plans regarding a new tinfoil hat design, Kenny.

    interested?

  113. #114 Ichthyic
    May 30, 2008

    Tell that for telling the truth about homosexuality that it is a sin (saying it not in a hateful way and not doing anything to anyone who is homosexual)

    ???

    LOL

    are we sure The Kenny isn’t some sort of internet bot?

  114. #115 Nick Gotts
    May 30, 2008

    Re #111 Well, Kenny, I’ve seen enough of American TV on my visits to the USA to be very glad indeed to pay my TV licence so we get at least two TV channels without adverts every 10 minutes. If you really consider the TV licence an example of communism, this only confirms that you are indeed deranged.

    The great majority of the cameras in London (and elsewhere in the UK, and I agree there are far too many) are privately owned and operated. Again, the connection with communism is in your imagination only.

    To say you will be imprisoned for saying that homosexuality is a sin, is simply false. If I am wrong here, no doubt you will be able to provide details of the relevant section of the Act of Parliament establishing this offence, and of the individuals who have suffered imprisonment as a result. If you cannot do so, Kenny, then if you have the smallest vestige of integrity, you will admit that this allegation is false, and apologise for making it.

  115. #116 JeffreyD
    May 30, 2008

    Hey Kenny, can you give us a hint on your post in #82 wherein you advised you have, “more proof I am waiting for the timing to release”. I am looking forward to it, in a perverse sort of way.

    Re your #111, you stated, “Tell that for telling the truth about homosexuality that it is a sin (saying it not in a hateful way and not doing anything to anyone who is homosexual) and see how you get put into jail for hate speech.” Do you actually have any information that something like that happened in the UK or are you pulling that from the ether? Or any figures for that happening here in the US? Or anywhere? Oh, calling something a sin does tend to incite violence against it, I think you can figure that out for yourself if you give it a minute, but no matter.

    I am curious, besides homosexuality, TV licenses in the UK and police/security cameras, what else do you see as a threat an/or sin? I am with you on the cameras by the way, they irritate the civil libertarian in me, glad you also display a healthy liberal attitude about them.

    Have you met “J” btw? He is currently visible on several threads. I do believe you two should become acquainted.

    Ciao

  116. #117 Kenny
    May 30, 2008

    My point about going to jail because you said homosexuality is wrong, that is something that I see coming soon. I have not researched anything about this actually happening.

    However, it is coming. This hate for anything religious. Hate for anything that is true or right will eventually be considered hate speech.

    oh and by the way, just so your little minds don’t misunderstand me. I don’t hate homosexuals. I would not harm anyone on here in real life or say anything against them on the Internet. I am not about doing that. That is not me. I am a pacifist.

    However, when God’s own word says that homosexuality is a sin like adultry, and murder, then people should turn away from it and ask forgiveness of their sins. God loves the sinner just like me, you (all of us), but he does not like sin.

    We all can read about Sodom (that is where the word originated from).

    When I say that homosexuality is a sin, I am sure that most people think I am being hateful and that is hate speech. They see it as I am saying something offensive. Well, I am not trying to be offensive. It is what it is. Homosexuality is a perversion of nature and against the Bible.

    Saying all of this doesn’t mean I fear homosexuals. I don’t fear myself being a homosexual. I really dislike homophobe and I resent that word.

    Look, I lived in West Hollywood in Los Angeles. I know all about people who are gay and they are some nice people. However, they are living in sin in the same way that I would be if I took a swing lifestyle. That is wrong according to the Bible.

    If you don’t know me. I have been in the most liberal parts of the United States. From NYC (6 years) to Los Angeles (7 years) and now in Northern California for 2 (so far).

    I have had gay guys hit on me many times and I am not offended by it. I feel pathetic telling you guys this but I want to show you that I don’t fear it.

    One time my wife and I went to Santa Monica to go to the beach and we went to get some food and there was a guy who was gay that would look at me everytime I would look at something (I was waiting on food) and I gave him my credit card and he wanted an ID and he saw my picture and made a comment to me that I had a nice picture. My wife was watching him and laughing as everytime I looked away he would just be looking at me in “that way” and such. I thanked him for the food and we just laughed about it.

    However, I really didn’t notice anything until he said something about my picture. Anyway, I just wanted to show you that I don’t hate gay folks. I wanted to tell you that God says that homosexuality is a sin and I believe it is. To say something like that is becoming hate speech, I think there was a case up in Canada, but I have to make sure that is the case by researching it.

  117. #118 Kenny
    May 30, 2008

    >Hey Kenny, can you give us a hint on your post in #82
    >wherein you advised you have, “more proof I am waiting for
    >the timing to release”. I am looking forward to it, in a
    >perverse sort of way.

    It’s from a Boston Radio station for NPR (NPR is very liberal radio). A scientific study is being done (although not finished) some of the findings are truely interesting.

    All I want is for you guys to open your minds even a tiny bit. For even the smallest possibility.

    You know what I think is so interesting is that the Atheists have made my faith stronger and not weaker. Tracking down the evidence has actually improved my life and made my faith and spiritual side stronger.

    I have always believed in the Bible, but now this even makes that stronger because there is plenty of proof out there and when you look for it, it causes me to even get stronger in what I know to be true.

    I have dawkins book on an MP3 and I listen to it on my cellphone and some of the stuff that he says is just purely moronic. The man should just stick to what he knows in biology and leave the other stuff to people that know what they are talking about. Then to add even further insult he acts like he is rational.

    Supernatural things are things that have not yet been explained and by taking his approach he just dismisses it outright and calls it irrational. Is that how science works, if we don’t understand something we just dismiss it?

  118. #119 MAJeff, OM
    May 30, 2008

    All I want is for you guys to open your minds even a tiny bit. For even the smallest possibility.

    blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

    You know what I think is so interesting is that the Atheists have made my faith stronger and not weaker. Tracking down the evidence has actually improved my life and made my faith and spiritual side stronger.

    blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

    I have always believed in the Bible, but now this even makes that stronger because there is plenty of proof out there and when you look for it, it causes me to even get stronger in what I know to be true.

    blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

    I have dawkins book on an MP3 and I listen to it on my cellphone and some of the stuff that he says is just purely moronic. The man should just stick to what he knows in biology and leave the other stuff to people that know what they are talking about. Then to add even further insult he acts like he is rational.

    blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

    Supernatural things are things that have not yet been explained and by taking his approach he just dismisses it outright and calls it irrational. Is that how science works, if we don’t understand something we just dismiss it?

    blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

  119. #120 Etha Williams
    May 30, 2008

    I’ve always liked this part of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah:

    Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom–both young and old–surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

    Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof” (Genesis 19:4-8).

    Firstly, it’s not entirely clear whether the men’s request is “wicked” because of the homosexual aspect or because of the inhospitable treatment of Lot’s guests (“they have come under the protection of my roof”). Secondly, while this request is wicked, it is apparently not wicked (or at least is less wicked) for Lot to let these men “do what you like” with his daughters.

  120. #121 Kenny
    May 30, 2008

    >Do you suppose Kenny might be preparing to reveal himself
    >as The Messiah? After all, how else can he have proofs of
    >God’s existence available to no-one else?

    No, I am not the Messiah. The proof of existence is called research. The difference between me and you? I believe in what I research and I have found too many things that just can’t be a lie or some kind of delusion.

    You on the other hand believe in yourself. You are deluding yourself. You can’t see anything if you are blinded by your own worldview.

    Atheists are hardly ever objective. That is an oxymoron really and really hardly rational like they say.

    Atheists are not at all rational and freethinkers. They are more like self-thinkers (they think about themselves instead of for themselves).

    If you want to be more rational than you should be an agnostic. They are a lot more rational.

    How can you be rational and objective with a closed mind?
    You don’t have to be religious, but you should be at the very least agnostic.

    Atheism just seems to be full of oxymorons.

  121. #122 MAJeff, OM
    May 30, 2008

    Posted by: Kenny | May 30, 2008 5:28 PM

    blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

  122. #123 Nick Gotts
    May 30, 2008

    My point about going to jail because you said homosexuality is wrong, that is something that I see coming soon. I have not researched anything about this actually happening. – Kenny@116

    That is not what you said:

    Tell that for telling the truth about homosexuality that it is a sin (saying it not in a hateful way and not doing anything to anyone who is homosexual) and see how you get put into jail for hate speech. Really fine country you got there. – Kenny@111

    So Kenny, were you lying in #111, or do you, as I suspect, find it very difficult to distinguish between things that are true in the real world, and things that you have imagined?

  123. #124 Brownian, OM
    May 30, 2008

    I’ve been waiting for a theologian to come clean and explain a position in non-obfuscatory language, and MAJeff is him!

  124. #125 MAJeff, OM
    May 30, 2008

    Tell that for telling the truth about homosexuality that it is a sin (saying it not in a hateful way and not doing anything to anyone who is homosexual) and see how you get put into jail for hate speech. Really fine country you got there.

    You lying sack of shit.

    Both when it comes to the “truth about homosexuality” (your worthless fucking book has nothing of value to say) and when he makes claims about society.

    We would all be better if you: 1) exited this space; 2) shut the fuck up; 3) were never born.

  125. #126 Ichthyic
    May 30, 2008

    My point about going to jail because you said homosexuality is wrong, that is something that I see coming soon. I have not researched anything about this actually happening.
    However, it is coming. This hate for anything religious.

    so homosexuality is religious?

    as I thought, Kenny is gay.

    everybody, let’s help Kenny get out of the closet.

    …and into the dungeon.

  126. #127 Owlmirror
    May 30, 2008

    Is that how science works, if we don’t understand something we just dismiss it?

    You mean like you dismiss Yamraj? Come on, why aren’t you going to convert to Hinduism? It is completely irrational of you to reject a real and vivid experience of the God of Death. There’s even the followup that the other man with the same name did actually die!

  127. #128 windy
    May 30, 2008

    Firstly, it’s not entirely clear whether the men’s request is “wicked” because of the homosexual aspect or because of the inhospitable treatment of Lot’s guests (“they have come under the protection of my roof”). Secondly, while this request is wicked, it is apparently not wicked (or at least is less wicked) for Lot to let these men “do what you like” with his daughters.

    Apparently his daughters weren’t “under the protection of his roof”.

  128. #129 Kenny
    May 30, 2008

    >Firstly, it’s not entirely clear whether the men’s request
    >is “wicked” because of the homosexual aspect or because of
    >the inhospitable treatment of Lot’s guests (“they have
    >come under the protection of my roof”). Secondly, while
    >this request is wicked, it is apparently not wicked (or at
    >least is less wicked) for Lot to let these men “do what
    >you like” with his daughters.

    Both were wrong. Lot was trying to hold back the men from wanting homosexual sex and so in turn he offers over his daughters (which is wrong). Lot believed in God, but he was leaning towards carnal ways. The rest did not believe in God at all obviously.

    All of us can be Carnal. You think that I have not looked at a woman since I am married and did not lust after her. I sure have. I have done that. I have also asked forgiveness for it. We have two parts of us. Carnal or of the Flesh and Spiritual. The spiritual side of myself doesn’t want to think that way, but the Spiritual side wants to ask forgiveness.

    That is my entire point. I am not any better than anyone here. I can still do evil things and lust in my heart for other women and all that. However, I go to God for forgiveness and I also forgive myself. Which isn’t always easy.

    I am not perfect, none of us are. However, even though I have my issues and my problems I can take them to God. Call him my invisible friend or whatever you want, but he is very real to me.

    Life isn’t perfect and neither am I. However, I can go to the Lord and ask his forgiveness. Many people say that God does not answer prayer. They don’t understand how things work. God is like our father. He listens to every prayer, but according to what his will is for our lives we may not get everything we want. Just like in real life. My dad never bought me a car when I was a teen. I had to earn that car my own way working at a fast food place.

    My point is that God is like our father. He answers every prayer, but it’s not always yes. Here is an example of a very personal thing for me to share.

    Before I was married I met this girl Jenny. I really liked her and she liked me. Her parents were Godly but she was not really. So, was in Seattle and I was in New York. I went to visit here and I fell in love and I prayed that it would work out. Well it did not and we had a fight and we broke up and no longer seen each other. I later on met a really nice girl and we got married.

    When I looked back at Jenny and looked at where my life would have been, it would have been a real mess. See one of the reasons why we broke up is that she started drinking. She was married to another guy and she got divorced. When I look at that I see how my life would have been in shambles but I am greatful to God for that even though at the time I was angry.

    I will also share the time when I got hit by a car when I was crossing the street in New Jersey and I hit the windsheild of the car and shattered it all to pieces and yet walked away from that without any pain (other than the typical back pain of being slammed right down on the pavement). :)

    There is more out there than you guys think. There is a God out there and you are missing him.

  129. #130 MAJeff, OM
    May 30, 2008

    There is more out there than you guys think. There is a God out there and you are missing him.

    blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

    Worthless fuckwit saying nothing of value. Absolutely nothing to say.

  130. #131 MAJeff, OM
    May 30, 2008

    I will also share the time when I got hit by a car when I was crossing the street in New Jersey and I hit the windsheild of the car and shattered it all to pieces and yet walked away from that without any pain

    DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN

  131. #132 Ichthyic
    May 30, 2008

    *PLONK*, *PLONK*, *PLONK*…

  132. #133 Shaden Freud
    May 30, 2008

    #116

    I wanted to tell you that God says that homosexuality is a sin and I believe it is.

    But by that standard it’s a sin to eat shellfish (Lev 11:9-12) or pork (Lev 11:7), to wear clothing made of two kinds of material (Lev 19:19), and to allow women to teach men (1 Timothy 2:12) or wear gold or pearls (1 Timothy 2:9).

  133. #134 BoxerShorts
    May 30, 2008

    There is more out there than you guys think.

    Undoubtedly. Who suggested otherwise?

    There is a God out there and you are missing him.

    Credible evidence or GTFO. (Please note the use of the word “credible.”)

  134. #135 Rey Fox
    May 30, 2008

    Nick Gotts:
    “If I am wrong here, no doubt you will be able to provide details of the relevant section of the Act of Parliament establishing this offence, and of the individuals who have suffered imprisonment as a result.”

    Feh. You’d be better off asking Kenny to give details about all those atheist church-burners.

    Kenny:
    “My point about going to jail because you said homosexuality is wrong, that is something that I see coming soon. I have not researched anything about this actually happening.”

    See? Totally pulled out of his ass. I might as well interpret Kenny’s constant insulting of us to be evidence that he and his church buddies are planning to round up all of us for a good lynching.

  135. #136 Nick Gotts
    May 30, 2008

    Atheists are not at all rational and freethinkers. They are more like self-thinkers (they think about themselves instead of for themselves). – Kenny

    Kenny, it’s not us atheists who think we’re going to live forever. Yet a lot of us work to achieve or prevent things that will only happen after our deaths, when by our own beliefs, we will not longer exist. How does that square with your belief that atheists only think about themselves?

  136. #137 BoxerShorts
    May 30, 2008

    You don’t have to be religious, but you should be at the very least agnostic.

    But we only need to be agnostic about your god, right? I assume it’s still okay if we dismiss the existence of Zeus?

  137. #138 BoxerShorts
    May 30, 2008

    It took me a while to come around, but I’m officially jumping on the Plonk Kenny bandwagon. He successfully derails every thread he touches, and never has anything new to say. His posts are disruptive and provide no content of value. He has repeatedly committed of the following crimes:

    Concern trolling
    Insipidity
    Godbotting
    Insipidity
    Slagging
    Insipidity
    Morphing (possibly — not confirmed as far as I know)
    Insipidity
    Stupidity
    Insipidity
    Trolling

    …and did I mention insipidity?

  138. #139 Kenny
    May 30, 2008

    >So Kenny, were you lying in #111, or do you, as I suspect,
    >find it very difficult to distinguish between things that
    >are true in the real world, and things that you have
    >imagined?

    Well according to people that I have talked to this has already happened in Canada and no I have not researched it to be 100 percent sure that has happened in Canada. I do not know if this is true or not. I cannot say.

    The entire hate speech issue is very liberal over in the UK already so it’s not a stretch at all.

    I was not lying when I said what I said. I was saying that if you tried to do so would probably convict you of hate speech. That is a stretch on your part saying that I am lying.

    You should be very aware on here that I try to go out of my way not to lie and be totally truthful. However, opinions (and hypothetical situations) are not lies they are opinions (or hypotetical situations).

    I would look up the definition to Lie, but I have to go to work as you all know I work nights).

    You all have a good day/night today and it’s FRIDAY!! :) :) :)

  139. #140 PZ Myers
    May 30, 2008

    Kenny, you are demonstrating the banality of stupidity. These longwinded, self-pitying Christian apologetics and bathetic tales of personal testimony belong in your church basement where you could bore your fellow Christians, rather than us uninterested and increasingly annoyed atheists, who find no value or virtue in them at all…and apparently, you are too slow-witted to realize it.

    Stop now. Go find a Christian forum where your whine-fests will fit right in. They don’t belong here.

  140. #141 Rey Fox
    May 30, 2008

    “Well according to people that I have talked to this has already happened in Canada and no I have not researched it to be 100 percent sure that has happened in Canada. I do not know if this is true or not. I cannot say.”

    So dedicated to truth you are. You see, the thing we keep trying to impress on you is that extraordinary claims (a big invisible sky daddy) require extraordinary evidence. This sort of ties in to your whole “if God came down and sat next to you” thing. How would we know it was really the big G? What if it were Vishnu? Or something nondivine entirely? What if no one else were around to see it? What if he managed to leave no evidence afterwards?

    Meanwhile, you sit there and tell us all sorts of whoppers based on what some guy told you. See why we don’t find you very convincing?

    “That is a stretch on your part saying that I am lying.”

    Not by much.

  141. #142 Kseniya
    May 30, 2008

    (NPR is very liberal radio).

    No it’s not. I’ve already pointed that out on this blog. Why do you pretend I haven’t? Your mind has all the flexibility and permeability of an anvil. I’ve already pointed that out, too.

    Take the cotton out of your ears, stick it in your mouth, and try to learn something.

  142. #143 windy
    May 30, 2008

    Before I was married I met this girl Jenny. I really liked her and she liked me. Her parents were Godly but she was not really. So, was in Seattle and I was in New York. I went to visit here and I fell in love and I prayed that it would work out. Well it did not and we had a fight and we broke up and no longer seen each other.

    I hope you didn’t have any premarital sex with this girl. Since that would be a sin.

  143. #144 Kseniya
    May 30, 2008

    Oh, and Kenny, you with the tiny, hateful mind behind the forced smile and the superficial calm of intellectual infirmity: Shame on you for claiming, for the Nth time here on this blog, that atheists are amoral and selfish.

    Shame on you.

    I retract the apology I offered on that other thread.

    You spineless, wriggling, parasitic denizen of the dark and rancid corners of the soul.

    Are you embarrassed yet?

    You should be.

  144. #145 Rey Fox
    May 30, 2008

    “I hope you didn’t have any premarital sex with this girl. Since that would be a sin.”

    He probably thought about it, and that’s just as bad. To his god.

    Another thing about that god is that he will do whatever he pleases, but he still expects you to pray to him.

    I think one thing that I, personally at least, would concede to Kenny is that yes, I do want to live without God. Because he sounds like a real dick.

    Not that that has any real bearing on whether or not he exists.

  145. #146 Kseniya
    May 30, 2008

    Hey, you know what? I wasn’t vaporized by a comet today!

    PRAISE GOD~!

  146. #147 Ichthyic
    May 30, 2008

    Hey, you know what? I wasn’t vaporized by a comet today!
    PRAISE GOD~!

    Yeah, and if it weren’t for that evilatheistcommunistscientist Shoemaker, we’d never ever have to worry about being struck by comets or meteors!

    thank goodness we have such a loving deity to redirect comet and meteor paths!

    ..and tornadoes and hurricanes, too!

    :p

  147. #148 Nick Gotts
    May 30, 2008

    Re #146 thank goodness we have such a loving deity to redirect comet and meteor paths!
    Well, rather disconcertingly, there does appear to be one deity who fits the bill – Zeus, King of the Gods, otherwise known as Jupiter! I believe that if Jupiter was not there redirecting those paths, the Earth would be bombarded far more heavily and frequently, and life might never have got beyond bacteria. Excuse me, I’m off to sacrifice a ram and examine the entrails…

  148. #149 Ichthyic
    May 30, 2008

    Excuse me, I’m off to sacrifice a ram and examine the entrails…

    don’t forget to wash your hands afterwards!

    after all, cleanliness is next to Zeussiness.

    :p

  149. #150 David Marjanovi?, OM
    May 30, 2008

    the banality of stupidity

    :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

    My night is saved. :-)

  150. #151 bPer
    May 30, 2008

    Kenny@#139:

    Well according to people that I have talked to this has already happened in Canada and no I have not researched it to be 100 percent sure that has happened in Canada. I do not know if this is true or not. I cannot say.

    I suspect that your people are lying, and I doubt that you’ve done any research at all.

    I’m Canadian and I don’t recall ever hearing of anyone who was jailed for hate speech regarding gays. Given the religious Chicken Littles who wailed and gnashed teeth when we legalized gay marriage, I would have expected that anyone who had been jailed would be front and centre in anything those bigots said.

    I’m not a lawyer, but I did some quick research myself. As far as I can tell, there are two pieces of legislation that are of interest here – Section 319 of the Criminal Code and the Canadian Human Rights Act. Section 319 specifically exempts religious speech in subsection 3b, so that only leaves the Human Rights Act. As far as I can tell, there is no jail time for convictions; you just have to make amends (apologize, retract, remove web content, etc.). If you refuse, you are in contempt of court, and that will get you jail time. I found one example, where a Heritage Front member was jailed for two months. Given the broad spectrum of hate that comes out of the Heritage Front, I don’t think it is relevent here.

    I may have missed something. Why don’t you do some research and find out, instead of throwing unsubstantiated claims around.

  151. #152 Ichthyic
    May 30, 2008

    Why don’t you do some research and find out, instead of throwing unsubstantiated claims around.

    oh PLEASE, don’t encourage it, it will only run around like a dog trying to fetch a newspaper, and end up just putting holes in it and drool on it.

  152. #153 Brownian, OM
    May 30, 2008

    Kenny would do well to re-consider his it’s-open-season-on-poor-Christians filter, and consider that the Canadian Criminal Code specifically protects religion against the nebulous ‘blasphemous libel‘.

  153. #154 bPer
    May 30, 2008

    Ichthyic @#152:

    But at least while he’s off playing with the paper, he’s not sitting in our face whining for attention. :)

  154. #155 MAJeff, OM
    May 30, 2008

    You all have a good day/night today and it’s FRIDAY!! :) :) :)?

    It certainly is. Time to go bring on the apocalypse by fucking the hell out of a really hot man…or three.

  155. #156 BoxerShorts
    May 31, 2008

    It certainly is. Time to go bring on the apocalypse by fucking the hell out of a really hot man…or three.

    Statements like this make me wish I were gay. Seriously. That’s how I know fundies are full of shit when they say being gay is a choice. If it was… Opening up that smorgasbord would be fucking awesome.

    Unfortunately, it’s not. I’m just not into dudes, and never will be no matter how awesome it would be.

  156. #157 Brownian, OM
    May 31, 2008

    Are dudes awesome? I don’t know. I’m extrapolating from a very small sample, but it’s my experience that they have a hangnail that’s irritating the hell out of me right now.

  157. #158 Ichthyic
    May 31, 2008

    it’s my experience that they have a hangnail that’s irritating the hell out of me right now.

    that’s why god gave us teeth.

    :p

  158. #159 Owlmirror
    May 31, 2008

    I have to go to work as you all know I work nights).

    You all have a good day/night today and it’s FRIDAY!!

    Am I going to have to be the one who points out that “Kenny”, by going to work on Friday evening on a shift that will almost certainly go past midnight Saturday, is breaking the fourth commandment of the explicit ten handed down by the almighty God?

    And that God has not only forbidden working on Saturday, but commands the death penalty for violating the ban on working?

    The irony, it is palpable.

  159. #160 Etha Williams
    May 31, 2008

    Kenny gabbled:

    I don’t hate homosexuals. I would not harm anyone on here in real life or say anything against them on the Internet. I am not about doing that. That is not me. I am a pacifist.

    Maybe Kenny’s a pacifist, but his god sure isn’t:

    Well, you are witnessing the begining of the end for our country. We are going to be destroyed by fire. I would guestimate via nuclear war. Laugh if you must but this is only the begining of the end. Our country is doomed.

  160. #161 Kseniya
    May 31, 2008

    The funniest thing about that last passage is his use of the word “guestimate” – a word that implies the use of some sort of rational, quantitative process. A Magic 8-Ball… oh, never mind.

    And it kinda reminds me of this.

    Maybe Kenny and Patience Killer are, um, brothers.

  161. #162 JeffreyD
    May 31, 2008

    Kseniya, if they are brothers then that gene pool needs a little bleach in it. Well, on the other hand, maybe not their fault. Their mother should not have smoked, drank, used LSD and heroin, and played with the home xray machine so much.

    MAJeff, re your #155, you consistently make me laugh. I have learned not to drink anything when I see your nick on a posting. Many of your posts are fascinating and serious, but I just cannot trust you. (smile) Oh, hope you were able to move toward the apocalypse.

    Ciao and morning all

  162. #163 MAJeff, OM
    May 31, 2008

    MAJeff, re your #155, you consistently make me laugh. I have learned not to drink anything when I see your nick on a posting. Many of your posts are fascinating and serious, but I just cannot trust you. (smile) Oh, hope you were able to move toward the apocalypse.

    Well, I do aim to please :)

  163. #164 CosmicTeapot
    May 31, 2008

    Kenny

    If you have secret information that will convince us atheists (and the non christians religions too, let us not forget them), please tell us.

    Your information could be responsible for converting us by the millions.

    You would be up there with the first liar for jesus, St Paul.

    They may even make you a saint.

    All hail Saint Kenny.

  164. #165 Leigh
    May 31, 2008

    Kenny, re: Sodom. Lot was prepared, and indeed made a good-faith offer, to turn his two very young daughters over to a mob to be gang-raped.

    Dude, you have to deal with that. You can’t just brush it off and pretend it didn’t happen. (Not that I think it’s an historical occurence, mind you, but it does purport to be part of a morality tale.) According to the Bible, Lot was the only righteous man in Sodom. You can’t make him into a good man by modern standards, no matter how you bend your mind.

    Morality has changed, Kenny. WE’VE changed. Getting your understanding of right and wrong from Bronze-Age goatherders makes for piss-poor morality.

    Has it occurred to you that the kind of mentality that could CONCEIVE of turning young girls over to be gang-raped is maybe not the kind of mentality you want to foster? And that maybe those goatherders’ notions about homosexuality are just as wrong?

  165. #166 spurge
    May 31, 2008

    I don’t see why Kenny proving his particular version of god exists would lead anyone to worship it.

    His god is a hateful bigot.

  166. #167 TL
    May 31, 2008

    Kenny, Wow, you’re worried that cameras in public places – there to deter crime – are invading your privacy? Hmm, what about that imaginary all-seeing god that you know sees you sinfully wanking away? Does the presumed all-seeingness strike you as an invasion of privacy? Do you feel guilty afterwards and immediately pray for forgiveness? That would be pathetic. Maybe he looks away and keeps another deserving christian from being hurt in a car accident while your busy with that. Simultaneously an infant somewhere dies in agony.

    Great religion you got there. It really is all about you isn’t it.

    >The country that I love USA is already going backwards. NYC is >starting to put cameras up to invade our privacy even more.

  167. #168 Karen Peralta
    May 31, 2008

    Not to get off of the topic at hand (some dude named Kenny) but I just wanted to say I heard the ad for the fifth time. Kieffe and Sons said that the ad was removed but I just heard it on the same radio station as the last four times.
    I’m thinking about calling them up and asking them what the fuck is going on.

  168. #169 RHM
    May 31, 2008

    Another thread highjacked by a KennyFest.
    Arrgghhh!
    The stupid – it hurts!
    *heading off to look for pretty pictures of the cephalopodic persuasion; much needed mind bleach and I know Kenny won’t be there.

    Rebecca

  169. #170 Britomart
    May 31, 2008

    I think Kenny is a perfect example of a brain so soaked in religion that it no longer works.

    He should be kept around as the local example of what happens when. “See children, this is why we want you to grow up well away from such nonsense”

  170. #171 mtraven
    May 31, 2008

    I’m a little late to this issue, but I can’t resist posting a link to this musical celebration of an earlier Ford apology (lyrics and credits here). You’d think they would have learned their lesson…

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