My pager went off at about 7 p.m. I had already finished rounding at the hospital, gone home, showered off the day, and sat down with a cup of tea. It was my senior resident. We had admitted a psychotic young woman to the hospital, and her parents were trying to sign her out against medical advice.
The young woman had been acting more and more strangely over the past several months.
When her parents finally brought her to the hospital after being unable to help her at home, she was completely disconnected from reality. She was hearing voices, screaming, picking at her clothes and skin, unwashed, and unable to have any coherent interaction with others. The staff psychiatrist had been by and had confirmed the diagnosis of acute psychosis due to newly diagnosed schizophrenia.
Her parents were clearly worried and frightened. They had watched their daughter descend into madness with increasing sadness and helplessness. Finally, as many do, they turned to their church...the Church of Scientology. And this is where the sad problem of a young, psychotic woman took a perverse turn. They were assured that through the applied philosophies of the church, their daughter could begin the return to sanity. In no uncertain terms, they were told that medical psychiatry would destroy any chance they had of recovering their child's mind. This, the terrified and hopeless parents latched onto tightly.
Psychiatrists had told the parents that they could expect a lifetime of illness, hospitalizations, maybe a job, maybe a life in a group home, and, if there was some luck, a somewhat normal life. Maybe. The church assured them that, through their healing programs, their child would return to normalcy. The demons haunting her would be purged, and she could have the life of a normal, young woman. For a price...
So, as we medicated the patient, in an attempt to reduce her fear and hallucinations, the parents came to the hospital enraged, sure that psychiatry was designed to destroy their child. Also, as parents, they felt it was within their rights to take their child, fly her to California, and enroll her in a Scientology treatment program. But the patient was 18. Without her explicit consent, they had no right to take her out of the hospital until she was stabilized. As any parent would, they had trouble understanding this. I spent hours on the phone and at the bedside with them. Since the parents could not serve as legitimate surrogates for the patient, it was necessary to file papers for involuntary psychiatric commitment. And from there arose the next problem.
My residents contacted the staff psychiatrist. He refused to certify the patient. They paged me. I called the chair of the department. He was at first quite vague, then he explained that Scientologists sue psychiatrists...a lot. But what of your duty, I asked him. He was clearly nervous about the entire case, and told me the rest was up to me.
So, after being told that psychiatry really couldn't help the patient, I went back to the hospital to do the commitment papers myself. I explained to the parents that they would be better off staying involved, since they had little recourse, and that after her commitment, they could investigate their options further. But I don't think any of us was satisfied.
Modern psychiatry, while making enormous breakthroughs in treating diseases of the mind, has been economically pressed to treat patients only medically...psychotherapy is not reimbursed well. Psychiatrists are already pressed when it comes to trying to provide the best care for their patients. To add to that the concern about being sued by cultists, well, that serves no one. The patient, at her greatest time of need, is caught in a perverse struggle, not only within her mind, but by powers outside her. Of course, she told us there were those out to get her. If she only knew the truth, how much greater might her fear be?
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Cue $cientologi$t rant in 5..4..
<grin>
Hello!
I have a friend who is a Scientologist, and whilst this is news to me that the sect often sues psychiatry, I know why.
Scientology provides what are called "audits", and they sound exactly like a psych. appointment! Clearly Scientology sees psychiatry as a threat. But just to let you know, I don't think it's a good idea to call Scientology a cult, as it is not very respected, it is a bona fide religion with tax exempts.
I also meant to add, that in Toronto, we have subsidized psychotherapy, but to see a psychologist is quite expensive. Psychiatry is a whole other ball park, as that involves medication, and to my understanding not a lot of one-on-one talking time.
Regardless, I have found that nothing gets a person out of his head, and the demons out, better than Yoga.
Carly:
Scientology may be a religion. It is also a dangerous cult. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Carly: Reverend Moon's Universal Unification church is also massive, well financed and a "boni-fide" religeon with similar status. The "Cult" status has nothing to do with size or wackiness. Cult behavior is authoritarian, with a charismatic leadership, abuse of the followers (whether physical, sexual, psychological or financial), and an enforced withdrawal from family and society at large linked with paranoid fantasies of persecution. There are other factors as well, but those are the elements that are the most important to distingush between a cult and a wacky religion.
Scientology still fits many of these criteria, and their paranoid fear of psychology, and expensive, ineffective and dangerous "alternatives" need to be called out whenever possible.
I believe in diplomacy, and since the author clearly has some unfinished business with Scientology, and he is trying to help a patient whose parents are adherents, it is only appropriate to put personal feelings aside and entertain this opposing force.
Lisa McPherson
It is not appropriate at all. You don't want to go to the hospital and have your doctor say "I could fix this with surgery, but let's entertain leeches.", do you? He made the appropriate medical decision. Entertaining the parents' whackjob cultists notions is not appropriate.
And yoga? For real, yo? Do you seriously think bending yourself into poses like a Barbie doll will cure "hearing voices, screaming, picking at her clothes and skin, unwashed, and unable to have any coherent interaction with others"? Really really?
I don't get woo people, really I don't.
What reason could a mind control cult have to distrust psychiatry? That's just crazy talk....
:-)
Carly, they are a Cult. Period.
Educate yourself.
Paulette Cooper
Mark, good for you for taking an action that may have saved this young woman's life.
The church assured them that, through their healing programs, their child would return to normalcy. The demons haunting her would be purged, and she could have the life of a normal, young woman. For a price...
There's the irony, right? Don't trust evidence-based medicine because doctors might make money. Trust a religious sect that claims it can fix all your problems -- given enough money.
Yoga harmonizes the glandular and nervous systems, making bodies strong, taking away vices that causes people to get stuck in their heads - much like a mentally insane person (cases such as hostilities, jealousies, feelings of limitedness and inferiorities),
Try thinking you're crazy once taking, Kundalini yoga, for instance.
You'd all be a lot less bitter, and psych patients wouldn't lash out as often.
And snoozebar, I used the word "entertaining" lightly.
Try putting yourself in the child's parents shoes (compassion - another outcome of yoga practice). They are going insane right now, extremely hurt over their daughter.
I support this author, absolutely. But how do you think having a doctor write you off as something that society deems illegitimate is helpful?
Are you serious?
Oh boy.
Carly please show me medical studies showing that
If you can even define what that actually means.
Scientology is a cult, and a very nasty one at that. Read the details about how they break up families, harass their critics, and abuse their own children:
http://radaronline.com/from-the-magazine/2008/03/scientology_anonymous_…
Right... the cure for all your ills. Yoga.
Oh. My. Dog.
Yoga may be a great exercise program, but it is NOT useful for actual medical problems, especially psychiatric ones.
Evidence? Smells like so much phlogiston to me.
Carly, please explain how you think the nervous system works. You are just repeating chiro-quack mumbo jumbo. They are always talking about how blocking/unblocking "nerves" causes all different kinds of ailments. Of course, they never actually explain HOW or try demonstrating it with a double blind study, etc.
Damn you chezjake, I was just about to link to that.
i have a second cousin once removed that has this girlfriend who's brother's best friend's aunt's car mechanic's sister is a satanist, and SHE said that the satanists will fix the demons for free. They bottle them.
It makes as much sense as yoga, scientology, and praying it will get better.
Crackpots. you hear? CRACK FREAKIN POTS.
You deny that exercise aligns our body structures? Interesting....
But yes, allow me to provide a link,
http://www.3ho.org/kundaliniyoga.html
No I agree that Yoga as an exercise is very good for you. I do not agree that it has some mystical powers of aligning made up "energy".
That is a link to a yoga site and on top of that it isn;t even a study, it's description. Please provide a medical study that provides evidence that
Also please define what it would mean to have your glandular and nervous systems "harmonized".
carly, on the main page of that site you linked:
"An authentic System with mmediate Benefits"
Notice the typo? How can i trust your source when they can't even be bothered to spell check their main PAGE?
also, linking to a yoga site to explain how yoga is better is not what they were asking for. They were asking for SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH THAT YOGA ALIGNS BODY BITS.
Learn. To. Read. IMO.
You still haven't explained HOW you think the nervous system works. How is stretching going to do anything to my nervous system and how would that affect anything? Until you do that you are just babbling nonsense.
Carly, I'm very much "in alignment" with the idea that Yoga may make some people feel better in some ways.
There is a big leap from that to claiming that Yoga has whatever other affects you think it does.
Hey, my sister-in-law has a Yoga shop. She loves it. Makes her feel great. She still takes her lipitor, though.
Oh, and as to having to humor the Scientology Cult parents in any way---FUCK THEM! The patient is not a minor, and if they had interfered in any material way, I would have had security kick them out of the hospital, without a second thought.
Luckily, they were reasonably nice people, and although they thought I was crazy (ironic?), they didn't materially interfere with the patient's treatment in the end.
[rant]BUT THEY ARE WACKO KILLER CULTISTS WHO DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT ANYTHING BUT FILLING THEIR POCKETS WITH MONEY. THEY CAN KISS MY ASS[/rant]
There are SO many links, yogic technology isn't a secret anymore!
I linked you to that particular site, because I am a member of the 3H0 Foundation.
My wife does yoga daily. It's great for muscle tone (it shows), balance and if done correctly great for cardio.
She is under no illusions however that it is doing anything as esoteric as harmonizing her glandular and nervous systems.
Mainly because she's relies on something we like to call around the house, reason.
Then please indulge us
Well there's a shocker
Boosterz, your comment just shows your ignorance of yoga. You hate it, and you clearly have zero connection to it.
You think yoga is stretching? Way to fall victim to being a stereotyper.
Whoa! Isn't that what got Eliot Spitzer in trouble?
Ok BigDumbChump, here's another.
I'll just spam this blog with links because you are unable to search "yoga" + "science" on Google yourself.
http://www.yogascience.org/home.htm
Actually, your inability to even explain/define your claims regarding yoga would seem to indicate that YOU are the ignorant one. You are the ones making claims that yoga is basically magic, yet you can't explain how it works. Prove me wrong, explain how it works.
I'm sitting here on pubmed (patient soon) and I find many yoga references, but none of any clinical significance outside of "relaxation", etc. Care to help me narrow my search?
That's because it is magic; Jesus was a Yogi.
If you don't know what the glandular and nervous systems are, then why are you on a science blog?
Sorry Carly (and sorry PalMD for the hijack) but that thread still does not address my question. Second it is your burden to prove this "harmonization" you so easily throw out.
I'll repeat
Please provide a medical study that provides evidence that
Yoga harmonizes the glandular and nervous systems
Also please define what it would mean to have your glandular and nervous systems "harmonized".
Links that try and support this using other hand-wavish descriptions such as this do not count.
Medical. Please. Thank you.
thread = link
Carly,
Please provide me a scientific "defination" of bodily humors.
Thanks.
I know what the nervous system is, and I know that the various claims by chiro quacks relating to it are complete nonsense. Explain how you think the nervous system works and how yoga supposedly influences it. You can't do it can you?
Here PalMD
http://www.kriteachings.org/PDF%20Files/Khalsa%202004%20ind%20j%20physi…
from the above link,
"As with any new practice or treatment being considered by the medical community, carefully designed and executed research studies that convincingly and scientifically demonstrate the effectiveness of Yoga will be required before it can be broadly applied to a large number of populations (children, the elderly, diagnosed medical and psychiatric disorders, etc.) and institutions (hospitals, schools, offices, etc.)"
Actually from this http://www.kriteachings.org/Research.htm
link
Um Carly, why did you chose to quote that passage?
Jesus was a yogi? And I suppose he was a special one that got to have 12 boo-boos?
I guess he *really* made the ranger mad at the end. </snark>
You still have not pointed to a single bit of *evidence* that yoga is anything more than a form of exercise.
Scanning through the references in Carly's "paper" you'll find a journal called 'J Res Indian Med Yoga Homoepathy'.
When eastern woo meets western woo...
That article points to benifits from Yoga. All benifits that can be achieved by any form of regular exercise.
I'll repeat I firmly believe that Yoga is a fantastic form of exercise. I do not hold any such illusions regarding mystical energy or chakra or "harmonizing your glandular and nervous system".
That phrase alone is gibberish.
ugh. Preview is your friend
benefits x2
I just provided 6 links, Lance R
The first 3 involve the glandular system, and the last 3 involve the nervous system, I am just waiting for them to go through now.
Too bad no one could google for themselves..
Carly, I suspect most of us are around here are used to standard citations rather than sectarian websites.
For example: Innes KE, Vincent HK.The influence of yoga-based programs on risk profiles in adults with type 2 diabetes mellitus: a systematic review. Evid Based Complement Alternat Med. 2007 Dec;4(4):469-86 PMID: 18227915
This meta-analysis at least attempts to ask and answer a question.
I see only two links above (I'm guessing the others are caught by the comment moderation, it sometimes does that to multiple links in a comment) and none that define what it means to have your glandular and nervous system in "harmony"
Please define what that means and then show a medical study from an accredited institution that shows this.
I don't deny and have not denied that Yoga has physical benefits. I'm just curious about the "harmony" you speak of.
Carly, in the future when you make assertions such as the one you made above, it is your burden to provide the evidence.
Wow! I have been in contact with someone from 3HO, and I must say, that I am re-newed after this comment war.
PalMD, I just wanted to show my regret for partaking in the highjacking of your thread, and I wanted to close by quoting what was just written to me.
"We would love to have more scientific information, but there seems to be a cultural mistrust between the yogis and science. As I have seen a few people attempt to study the effects of yoga and they have been denied access. Which I found more than odd and quite disheartening, being from a science background myself.
Which means to me, that it might either not be time yet (as it will naturally happen when the Universe allows it to) or that where there is light, darkness comes. Not in a bad way, but in a way that makes the light work harder to become brighter to block out the darkness. Because darkness is just our unrealized lightness."
Blessings to you all!
Bill Dembski? Is that you?
LOL@ Rev
I think what they really meant to say is "We would love to provide scientific evidence supporting our claims but all the available data indicates we are full of crap."
It is very well established that exercise (including yoga) can (and usually does) have beneficial effects for those with psychiatric illnesses. Does yoga do anything special compared to any similar exercise? No.
In the case of an acutely psychotic patent the priority is to make sure the patient doesn't hurt themselves or anyone else. This almost always means drugs. Exercise, psychotherapy, even yoga can come later. They all need the patient to have some grip on reality. Scientology does not come at all.
She was nice. I hope she comes back on a more relevant yoga type thread. I hope you guys realise that is the kind of person that Denialism is trying to reach and educate about modern medicine.
Nisbet is that you?
No, I actually buy that. Carly at first seemed quite nice, but I suspect we may not be able to "turn" her, however, other yogis...
I'd love to see the actual citations of interest. I did hit PubMed, but most of the "studies" could basically be applied to any exercise.
"We would love to have more scientific information, but there seems to be a cultural mistrust between the yogis and science..."
This statement can be applied to any woomeister because as soon as scientists demonstrate that the woomeister is all BS the woomeister's woo has lost all of its mystique. So, of course the yogis distrust scientists.
Guys you chased her off before Richard could get her phone number. :(((
Hi Guys!
I do think that any exercise is as great as yoga actually, but yoga incorporates a religious attribute, and targets certain systems particularly, which is I love, but I prefer dance to yoga anyway.
I know that we are designed to move, and I am my happiest after a walk, dance or yoga, and I'm sure that most can agree that they feel better after moving around. I work at a desk job, so I do what I can to keep moving. Watering plants is a great way to be active and feel good helping to sustain life!
And if any of you are into extra-dimensional beings, there's a great interview here http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/pleyades/esp_pleyades_15a.htm from a Pleidian who says that bones, like stones and rock, retain light (information) memory through filaments and electromagnetic fields (which I am still learning about, maybe some of you science buffs can help me), and this phenomenon makes us happy and discover our true beauty and potential, which is why we are here on earth, actually.
I love this site, I'll be around, but no I won't try to push yoga again, I don't think.
And what do you mean by "turning" me? I've been on 3 types of medications and 2 of them made me really sick, and I will never go back to anti-depressants. Really, my only line of defence against depression is yoga.
Maybe I should clarify that I am not against medicating severely ill patients?
I hope that it didn't come off this entire time that I was actually suggesting that this patient did yoga instead of rehabilitation that included prescriptions...
@ carly
Wow. Just, wow.
My fav quote of the day "And if any of you are into extra-dimensional beings, there's a great interview here"
You realize that link is nothing but literally psychotic bable, I hope? Granted, I'm not "framing" my response well, but linking to that drivel from a science blog is making my browser smolder.
Scote - I am totally making fun of myself right now, that's all.
...tell me that didn't bring a huge smile to your face..
Not only did you make me smile, I almost suspected you of being Orac in drag.
Your comment above about yoga, medication, and depression is very interesting, and warrants a lit search. Certainly, it's a question that can be legitimately investigated.
:) Thanks PalMD.
In part of the e-mail that gave me some peace, she wrote, even bad press is good press, because it gets people thinking about it.
I think incorporating yoga into your rehabilitation programmes just might work! (something to think about at least :))
I would like to re-state that yoga does incorporate religion, but as with any such method there are sects which take it too far. Dahn Holistic Yoga is another cult which practices disconnection, and bankrupts its members.
This is not to say that all yoga is a cult, just as not all Scientologists are involved in the cult (look up the freezone, which practices scientology but is not part of the corrupt CoS and has no stance on psychiatry).
Yes, denying a mentally ill person is outright wrong. Yes, members of the CoS are generally militantly supporting a cult.
People will go with whatever belief set that helps them get through the night and not worry about death. They are free to do so, but the line has to be drawn at the point that it interferes with the well-bring of others, and the CoS crossed that line a long, long time ago.
Right now, the cult is under fire of a upper -criminal investigation in France, because the scientology got a 48 woman off a psychiatry hospital, got her kidnapped, mistreated her, and sequestrated her under guard of three scientologists. This could send the cult up to 20 years behind jail.
That's adding to a criminal trial under way in Brussels, belgium, to the will of many german ministers to see the crime cult forbidden, to the very bad repute of the cult in all the other european countries, with very few exceptions.
Just a note from a clinical psychologist (albeit still completing some licensure hours)... auditing is NOT exactly like an appointment with a psychotherapist. In fact, many of the techniques used and underlying theories are based upon notions that empirically-based psychologists have invalidated decades ago. While the role of the psychiatrist is important, psychotherapy research has, in many cases, already established parity between empirically-based approaches (e.g., cognitive-behavioral therapy or interpersonal therapy for depression) and antidepressants. I empathize with your position in this case; it's unfortunate that we all must be so mindful of the litigious cults in our midst.
The arguments Scientology uses against psychiatry are very similar to the rants of ID proponents against evolution - most significantly the proposition that since the knowledge of psychiatry (and its successes) are not complete and absolute, it must be discarded as insufficient.
In this case, and "I know better than you do because I'm Right" thankfully did not trump the need to make a real attempt to save a human being's mind. Thank you for the courage of your convictions, Doctor. My hopes are with the patient.
Another footnote I think is relevant. A few years back, a friend of mine had gotten heavily into yoga. She'd had some problems with depression but no history of psychiatric problems. She went to an ashram in the Catskills for a weekend retreat. While she was there, in the middle of chanting, something caused her to become extremely confused mentally. I don't have a clinical term for it but she felt like she was going crazy. The people at the ashram told her she was having a "Kundalini awakening." After a couple of days of this disoriented, totally at sea feeling, my friend was back home. Her boyfriend called me, concerned because she was mostly incoherent and doing such odd things as smelling light sockets, placing a banana in the middle of the room on the floor. During this time she had some more lucid moments. Once she called me, terrified because she didn't know what was happening to her. The next day she went to a hospital, and she ended up seeing a psychiatrist and getting psych meds. It took her at least a year to get anywhere near to where she had been, mentally, before she went to the ashram.
I'm not relating this incident to warn people off of yoga; I don't think my friend's experience was typical! But I don't think yoga is a cure for insanity and unfortunately it may be risky in some cases.
Wow... Just WOW... How many meds were you on? Methinks you needed a few more. Extradimensional beings, bones with wooish data storage, sounds like you'll believe just about anything... Hmmm.... Wanna get a cup of coffee some time?
The "etradimensional beings" bit was apparently (effective) parody. Carly appears to be somewhat sane, as much as I hate to admit it.
Ok good one Carly. You had me there. :)
It's the attribution of supernatural powers to yoga that i find ridiculous. Why not focus on the actual benefits of yoga instead of having to fall back to the "harmony" and "chakra" and other esoteric ideas. There is no evidence that that type of thing exists.
It did not. An appalled expression, perhaps, but not a smile. And I say that not because I don't like humor but because True Believers are so over the top as to be parody proof ;-p
In the right context your link could have been hilarious, but only if I could be sure you were joking.
THANK YOU, PalMD, for having the guts to do the right thing in a situation where you risk the litigious wrath of a cult.
The Church of Scientology's pseudo-science (and of it's front organizations like CCHR and Narconon) has killed before, and it will kill again if left unchallenged.
We need more medical professionals like you.
Cheers!
P.S.
If you'd like to see a global organization with 12,000+ members taking the Church of Scientology's BS head-on:
http://forums.enturbulation.org
We'd welcome some more MD's and other medical professionals on the forums!
inb4BGodley
Thanks for your thoughts on Scientology's tactics and practises from a MD's standpoint.
Mind you, they're not just anti-psych, they also attempted to infiltrate the Ontario Mental Health group (R v. Church of Scientology of Toronto for more information). Also see CCHR (A scientology front group now) and their anti-psych campaigns...
Their views, no matter what they are, are potentially harmful, and it seems that they won't just stop with conscientious objection to procedures... they'll try to get them stopped all together.
Anonymous has really opened my eyes yea? I'll try and see them on the 12th of April.
Scote - lighten up!
...some yoga will help you to achieve that...
:D
You science types are a hoot.
Who cares if I used the word "harmonize"? Yoga means "to yoke", which means to unite (body, mind, and spirit).
And I think that I am quite lovely, I'm not sure how my sanity came into question - I think that being nasty on message boards is far more mentally insane than talking about our spirituality and healing holistically. Maybe if we connected more with our "selves" we would feel less depressed, angry, and frustrated all the time.
Hey, out of curiosity, are there any other blogs on this site that has as many comments made as this one?
Carly, I suspect, is not one of the bat-shit insane trolls we have come to expect. There is a difference between not having the scientific vocabulary to describe something, and being a pseudoscientific evagelist.
Exercise, yoga, etc are likely to have a positive effect on many people (at least, it's not an extraordinary claim)---to over-reach with claims of preventing flu or curing cancer would warrant a "Wackaloon Award" (ht pp)
aww. u thought i was a troll?!
but why? :(
Good luck, Doctor. <3
Doctor, I've been taking yoga for over 2 years now, and I was the best in my class. I am blessed to have a guru for a teacher, and until I broke off and practiced very hard on my own, I followed him around like a puppy.
I did believe that yoga could fend off sickness and cure cancer, until I thought I was really sick once and realized who was I to walk around like Jesus and his disciples and teach how to cure without medicine? I can barely do yoga anymore.
In the end, I believe that it takes will to succeed in being healthy, and yoga showed me the divinity in us all, and that's why i try to maintain a practice, and starting Monday I will be taking classes weekly again.
I've mentioned Jesus a couple of times, but I am not a Christian, I am a pantheist I guess is the best way to describe it.
Wait, I want to get more information on this whole Jesus/Yogi thing...
Is this the new trinity? Yogi, Boo-boo, and the holy Picnic Basket?
Okay... too much pain medication... calming down now...
I think the "Kundalini awakening" is the neurogenic invocation of a low NO state, the "fight or flight" state, or the ischemic preconditioned state (they are essentially all the same). I suspect it is brought upon by hypoxia produced by breath control techniques. The hypoxia generates superoxide which lowers the NO level and triggers all the down-stream effects. If so, it absolutely could produce all sorts of psychotic symptoms. It would show up as white matter hyperintensities on an MRI. If taken far enough, this physiological state can induce a state of euphoria, the euphoria of the near death state. I think that is the same euphoria produced by the stimulant drugs of abuse, solvent huffing, autoerotic asphyxiation.
Once you invoke it, it can persist long term. The supply of energy to the brain is compromised, and the brain may respond by "pruning" the excess beyond what it has the capacity to support.
If that is what is happening, it is a very serious effect that will (not could, but will) cause brain damage and shorten your life. It is a delusional state where your grip on reality is very seriously compromised.
Kundalini Yoga taught me to be a better person. I can now stop thinking solely about myself, I assume complete responsibility for myself - I don't blame people, I don't victimize myself; I have a desire to protect the planet and the people on it, I can sacrifice my time, I can give my last piece of lunch to someone even if I'm still hungry, I can push my physical limits, I can feel secure in myself, rely on myself.
I believe that I achieved full kundalini awakening this past summer, and that I have experienced what is defined in mysticism, "The soul undergoes a purification (the purgative way), which leads to a feeling of illumination and greater love of God (the illuminative way); after a period the soul may be said to enter into mystical union with God (the unitive way), which begins with the consciousness that God is present to the soul; the soul progresses through a time of quiet and an ecstatic state to a final perfect state of union with God (spiritual marriage). Late in this process there is an experience (the dark night of the soul) wherein the contemplative finds himself completely deserted by God, by hope, and, indeed, even by the power to pray; it lasts sometimes for years."
http://bartleby.com/65/my/mysticis.html
Since this comments thread already has a strong yoga tangent, I don't feel too bad about discussing something other than the Scientology/psychiatry issue, about which I know very little. I'm a tenured research scientist (developmental neurobiology and cancer) and anatomy/neuroscience instructor, and a "practitioner" of Iyengar yoga, which is a branch of Hatha yoga that emphasizes alignment and balance as preparation for meditation. I don't expect anyone to automatically believe the former claim (I think people lie a lot on teh interwebz), but PalMD could easily check out my credentials if it's an issue. I'm not at a naturopathic or osteopathic institution, or at any other Woo U.
I don't believe the chakra stuff and the kundalini force stuff and the skull luster stuff and the inverted-postures-bathe-the-thyroid-gland (in anything other than woo) stuff. The asanas, or poses, which almost everyone assumes represent the entirety of "yoga", definitely provide musculoskeletal benefits and improvements in posture and range of motion at joints, in my experience.
But there's another important aspect of Hatha yoga that's being ignored here, pranayama, and it's the one for which there might be some evidence (albeit indirect) for an influence on the nervous system. Pranayama, which is the "breath control" part, is considered an intermediate or advanced practice, at least in Iyengar yoga, and it's an essential part of the preparation for meditation.
Since Carly has maintained what appears to be a pretty good sense of humor, in spite of the typical ScienceBlogs comments dogpile, I'll support her with three references to articles from peer-reviewed neuroscience journals, each of which demonstrates that slow oscillations in cortical activity are coupled to respiration, i.e. the electrical activity of neurons in the brain is coupled or synchronized to the breathing cycle, under certain circumstances. If my post makes it through, I'll elaborate a bit on the findings in each article in a separate comment. Here are the references:
Fontanini, A., Spano, P., and Bower, J.M. (2003). Ketamine-xylazine-induced slow (< 1.5 Hz) oscillations in the rat priform (olfactory) cortex are functionally correlated with respiration. J. Neurosci. 23(22): 7993-8001.
Fontanini, A. and Bower J.F. (2005). Variable coupling between olfactory system activity and respiration in ketamine/xylazine anesthetized rats. J. Neurophysiol. 93, 3573-3581.
doi: 10.1152/jn.01320.2004
Masaoka, Y., Koiwa, N., and Homma, I. (2005). inspiratory phase-locked alpha oscillation in human olfaction: source generators estimated by a dipole tracing method. J. Physiol. 566, 979-997
doi: 10:1113/jphysiol.2005.086124
carly, its a cult which sued the IRS into submission so it could attain tax exempt status and parade as a religion (which denies teachings to its own followers unless they pay) and yet is a commerical enterprise in this way and hates psychiatry as its a 'threat' to their brainwashing.
tax the cult, investigate its crimes.
@Owl...sounds interesting with at least a shot at plausibility. Of course, the clinical literature is more interesting to me, but still...
At some point, I'm going to have to dig through the 1465 hits on MedLine for Yoga and see what's out there.
PalMD - You may be interested in this little video in which the head of the cult David Miscavige uses some rather worrisome speach against psychiatry. If you have not seen this already, you need to. (And show this to others in the profession)
David Miscavige calls for "Global obliteration of psychiatry" using images of hand grenades and loaded militaristic language. Enjoy! (I didn't)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfu7Sr50N7U
Carly - Do you agree with the language used in this speech given by Scientology leader David Miscavige?
The anti-psychiatry stuff really starts about a minute in. People in the profession need to watch this and see more of the type of mentality you are dealing with regarding Scientology.
"Global obliteration of psychiatry"?!
When did I for a moment imply that?
Im guessing that wasn't particularly aimed at you, C.
How many of the posters here have ever been around someone who is full blown psychotic? As a nurse, I have. Maybe Yoga might help down the road when this person could focus a bit, but not when they are out of touch with reality and unable to form a sentence. Scientology has killed people before trying to help someone that was psychotic. Scientology is a pseudo science cult. Google Lisa McPherson. The hardest part of treatment is giving them enough medication to get them to focus, but not so much they turn into a zombie. The Psychiatric field still has a way to go and I hope they continue to research and evolve. If this was my loved one I would let this brave resident treat them. For another look at Schizophrenia look up http://xavieramador.com/_wsn/page4.html
Cult. Cult. Cult. A 501(c)(3) exemption and the stupidity of the Courts don't change that.
PalMD you are doing a great service to the medical community exposing this. As a former Scientologist I can attest to the lies people within the Church are told about Psychiatry. On the outside it starts out "practical" such as "psychiatry is a pseudoscience" or "pharmaceuticals are pumping our kids with drugs" but then veers into sinister scapegoating.
I was personally told that Psychiatrists were responsible for the Holocaust, the sinking of the Titanic, and the Hindenburg explosion, and that Psychiatrists routinely rape their patients. It's ironic because in my time in Scientology it was the Scientologists who were covering up sexual abuse scandals, and leading people into dubious therapies that not only did nothing but were harmful to the body.
To Carly: I think we should start asking ourselves WHY Scientology has tax exempt religious status.
Answer: Operation Snow White and the various blackmails against the IRS in the 80s
Yoga's just exercise. It has no other "healing powers" beyond the benefits of exercise.
No matter how much mumbo jumbo people trick you with.
Owl, that is interesting but not surprising that one can entrain electrical activity of neurons with breathing. The real question, is that a good thing or not? Virtually every physiological regulatory pathway that has been investigated carefully has turned out to be chaotic when it is running well and more periodic when it becomes pathological.
I am no neurologist, but I would think that a more regular EEG would be a sign of pathology not one of health.
Way back at the beginning of the comments, something was written or quoted about yoga "harmonizing the glandular and nervous systems". I'm not sure what "harmonizes" means, nor what the "glandular system" includes, so I don't agree with the statement. However, yoga *is* more than just stretching or exercise, and the example I gave was the pranayama, or controlled breathing, aspect. The papers I cited above provide evidence that the breathing cycle can influence slow oscillations in some regions of the cerebral cortex. Perhaps this could be considered "harmonizing"? At the very least, it raises the possibility that the controlled breathing of pranayama could influence neural activity.
1. Fontanini, A., Spano, P., and Bower, J.M. (2003). Ketamine-xylazine-induced slow (< 1.5 Hz) oscillations in the rat piriform (olfactory) cortex are functionally correlated with respiration. J. Neurosci. 23(22): 7993-8001.
Low frequency oscillations in field potentials in the olfactory bulb and cerebral cortex were found to be correlated with the breathing cycle. The patterns were disrupted in tracheotomized rats, and restored when puffs of air were pulsed in the nostrils.
2. Fontanini, A. and Bower J.M. (2005). Variable coupling between olfactory system activity and respiration in ketamine/xylazine anesthetized rats. J. Neurophysiol. 93, 3573-3581.
In the pyriform cortex and olfactory periphery of lightly-vs. deeply anesthetized rats, the slow oscillatory state was found to be directly related to the breathing cycle ("respiratory input").
3. Masaoka, Y., Koiwa, N., and Homma, I. (2005). inspiratory phase-locked alpha oscillation in human olfaction: source generators estimated by a dipole tracing method. J. Physiol. 566, 979-997.
This study used human subjects to show that alpha band oscillations are phase-locked to the onset of inspiration, at least during odor stimulation, with the subject conscious and eyes closed. The authors state "rhythmic inspiratory olfactory input influences cortical rhythms from the olfactory-related ENT, HI, AMG, and OFC" (entorhinal cortex, hippocampus, amygdala, and orbitofrontal cortex).
I remember seeing a poster at last year's EB meeting, which described a program to use yoga for stress reduction AND anatomy education in medical students. ;-)
Sorry for the double post, but the first reference keeps getting truncated, possibly because of a bracket in the title:
Fontanini, A., Spano, P., and Bower, J.M. (2003). Ketamine-xylazine-induced slow oscillations in the rat piriform (olfactory) cortex are functionally correlated with respiration. J. Neurosci. 23(22): 7993-8001.
Removed the "less than 1.5 Hz", will see if it works now...probably misread as an HTML tag.
Thank PalMD! The world needs more MD's like you!
Bottom Line is Scientology is a cult. Been there, done it and thankfully woke up! It is an abusive insidious indoctrination to mind & emotional control. Google Scientology and educate yourself folks.
Scientology is no place for someone with any kind of mental illness. The pressure and control issues are enough to drive a regular joe to the brink. Again, read up folks!
For a long time I struggled with understanding mental illness with all its labels and meds. It didn't make sense. Now I am witnessing a friend going through Bipolar Hell. It is real and it is an illness. It is like emotional epilepsy.
There are genuine aspects to the mind/body/spirit ideal, but we haven't arrived yet. And honestly, be real getting a paranoid schizophrenic person or an individual in a bipolar mania to do yoga, you have no clue. get real.
Maybe once a person has come to a reality point, found a healing route with medication, therapy, diet and some form of exercise possibly yoga then we can talk benefits of yoga.
I am truly humbled from all I have experienced. We all have a lot to learn, face it. Before anyone gets stuck on one answer look at both sides of the coin and what surrounds it.
You'll be amazed.
I hope this woman is being helped. One day with joining the knowledge & wisdom of mind/body/spirit medicine we might have a cure. Let's look to this model. One can hope.
In the meantime thank you PalMD for your wisdom and compassion!
I just love the phrase "yogic technology", I work in Electronics, and know quite a bit about technology in general, yoga doesn't fit any definition of technology that I can think of.
And of course nice to see you and your NO again Daedalus...;)
Zed
No, it could not. You are making one of the classic crank fallacies, data fitting. I could posit that Yoga causes death and say "the yogic breathing cycle can influence slow oscillations in some regions of the cerebral cortex. Perhaps this could be considered proof of bringing yoga practitioners "closer to death""? The possibilities are endless. Make a supposition, selectively sift through the data and declare the point proven.
Just to be clear on this:
Scientology is a 100% bona fide religion, just as much as Christianity, Jainism or Voodoo.
The Church of Scientology is a cult, and a very dangerous one at that.
Please be clear on the distinction.
MOAR:
www.exscientologykids.com
What was the "applied religious philosophy" of the parents who refused ongoing psychiatric treatment for their mentally ill daughter, who eventually had a psychotic episode and butchered her father, 15 yr old sister and tried to butcher her own mother in 2007? SCIENTOLOGY
There is one commom denominator in all 3 instances of these mentally ill people...SCIENTOLOGY.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4AwDLKb_YE
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/i-just-butchered-my-family/2007/07/…
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/07/10/1183833476294.html
Who was Jeremy Perkins and what did he do to his mother whilst he was suffering schizophrenia? What was Elli Perkins adhering to when Jeremy stabbed her 77 times? SCIENTOLOGY
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/JeremyPerkins/
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=6384690986890322937
Google "Introspection Rundown." Their solution to psychosis is isolation of the patient, who is to be watched by people who do not speak. It killed Lisa McPherson, and recently caused a major scandal in France when Claude Boublil and his accomplices were arrested in Italy for kidnapping his sister and keeping her locked up for several weeks. Paradoxically, Boublil is not only a high level Scientologist but a retired medical doctor! Yet he was trying to "save" her from psychiatric treatment.
Scote is correct. You need to supply actual studies that are focused on this "harmonizing". If there aren't any (and I doubt you'll find any valid ones) you need to stop ascribing mystical powers to yoga and keep focusing on the measurable benefits. You know the exercise benefits.
Good morning everyone :)
I had quite the night, someone blackmailed me, and I got so riled up I skipped my dance class :(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elli_Perkins
Just another family tragedy, courtesy of Scientology.
When it first came on-air, local Cable Access channel would play "canned" talk shows from some Scientology media group. They used some other name, but all the hallmarks were there: psychiatric meds kill people, hospitals drool over the chance of locking you up for life, people need vitamins and exercise to be healthy.
Of COURSE people need vitamins and exercise! By saying that , the cultists get a percentage of people nodding along with them. The next statements go down a little easier when they have started out being sensible.
The tragedy is, psychotropic drugs are not nearly good enough yet for the problems they treat. Some people make great gains, others just keep their heads slightly above water. It is a frustrating, bedeviling heartache to have a loved one with mental illness. It's hard to keep from grasping at straws. That doesn't mean one should completely shun what modern psychiatry offers.
begin rant
Look, exercise _can_ have a bennefical effect on those suffering from mental illness. My shrink in fact recommended that I continue to exercise as part of my treatment. Yoga is a particularly good form of exercise, great for strength and flexibility. It is probably quite benneficial for those suffering from mental illness.
However, it is not a cure all. For those with more severe and biologically based mental illnesses, medical treatments (including durg thearpies) have proven, clinical results in the treatment of mental illness. Drug therapies, in conjunction of psychotherapy and behavioural change, can have a dramatic effect.
To claim yoga can cure mental illness is foolish and dangerous. It continues the dangerous line of thinking I call the "pull you socks up" approach to mental illness... that the illness is all in your head and with will power, one can simply shrug it off.
This is wrong, false and has the potential to persuade people off seeking treatments for dangerous disorders. Mental illnesses are just that... illness, with physical causes and effects.
For severely depressed or bi-polar patients, psychothearpy, or exercise therapy is pretty useless without corresponding drug treatments. However, people who undertake both drug treatments and psychothearpy are much more likely to improve than those who undertake only one or the other.
To continue to push this misguided view of mental illness is one of the reasons it is such a problem in our society. And the sooner people wake up to the fact that "pulling your socks up" is not going to for those with serious mental illnesses, the better.
end rant
Should probably have mentioned that I think yoga is fantastic in my rant. Brilliant for your health... just not a cure all.
"Brilliant for your health, but not a cure at all"
This is inconsistent!
Oh ye of little faith..
Typo:
Should have written "Not a cure all". Ignore the at.
I don't need faith. I need medical treatment. So do others with serious mental illnesses.
Here's what I think - whether we hail from science backgrounds or arts back grounds, China or the US, we all have the same fundamental principles in our make-up. We all are spiritual, whether we adhere to a religious or spiritual sects or not.
But we are led to believe that we are not enlightened, that we are away from "god", "the original source" - however we might want to interpret it or classify it.
I had an uncle (married in though my aunt's husband) who died because he was so paranoid that he wouldn't take his anti-psychosis medication, I know that medication is important.
But does anyone wonder (maybe not, seeing as I'm in a science forum) that the medical and pharmaceutical companies are getting a lot of attention and funding, and the Arts are always getting underfunded?
Yes I am "religious", I am a Gnostic Yogi (or pantheist), and I work toward a world where we see that our Breath is our Creativity; I believe that we are meant to Create, like Gods. Whether it's in the medical field, or acting in a local theatre, and that is why it's suppressed - imagine how powerful and in control we'd be!
We get so stuck in our heads, this happened to me last night - I needed to go to my dance class, but instead I stayed at home and felt like a failure. I don't believe that medication can help me get out of my head, I think just being more careful with how I act in the time that I have, and use mind over matter, when something stings me in the ass.
Has anyone seen The Secret (or read it? :P). I believe that this is Truth!
Are you parodizing again?
I have no evidence that thinking leads to things, or that we are drawn to like energies, but it definitely does explain coincidences.
I do my best. I tell myself every morning that I am going to have a great day. And when I'm not stuck in my head like last night, I tell myself that my dreams are going to come true.
I do believe that one thing is for certain though - we have only ourselves to rely on. No one is going to make my day good but me, and no one is going to get me what I want but me. If I have a depressive or self-defeating attitude, I think it's clear that I will fail.
Carly,
It may be, with your ability to to use the power of positive thinking to control your mood, that you are not mentally ill.
When I go through a severe depressive episode, not only do such positive thoughts fail to lift me from my downward spiral, but I find myself, quite literally, incapable of thinking such positive thoughts. Some times, I've found myself incapable of picking myself off the bathroom floor.
Serious mental illness can't be overcome by wishing it will go away. It requires medical treatment. And perpeptuating the idea that it can is what keeps people from seeking treatment when they should.
Sorry if I've got no humour about this subject, I may be missing some subtle joke. But I find it difficult to see humour in this subject.
It took me an embarrassingly long time to get my BA in English, because I couldn't get out of my head, I was kicked out, put on academic probation, failed a lot, etc. Now, I am not saying that Yoga helped me graduate, because I have zero proof of that, but I had started yoga as I was completing my last credit or so online.
Yoga got me out of my head, because it's not even just the targeting exercises, it's having extraordinarily motivating talks that the teacher gives for maybe 5-15 minutes before we begin as well. Now, as my last point indicates, I still struggle with depression, but I believe that yoga gave me the courage to do things, which is near impossible when down and out, thinks like thinking positive, even when I first wake up and think, "oh god". (there is also evidence that when we first wake up we feel a little down as the chemicals start moving around again after slumber).
One think that yoga helped me achieve was going back to my old violin teacher, who when I was a rebellious teen unwilling to practice, told me not to bother continuing lessons. At the end of August, I think it was, like 10 years later, I knocked on his door and said "teach me please". It's one of the best things that I've ever done. It's one example how I fought my demons, and I've been re-acquainted with another facet of creativity.
it is a bona fide religion with tax exempts.
Posted by: Carly
The only reason Scientology has tax-exempt status is that they held the IRS over a gun, threatening lawsuits at every turn until the IRS just gave up. They've sued and bullied their way into gaining that status, and now they're using it to try to claim legitimacy.
...hopefully not blackmailed by someone threatening to tell the Yoga Mafia that you "prefer dance to yoga anyway." --Be sure to keep even the smallest windows shut, just to be safe. Those yoga thugs can fit through some really tight places...
Wrong.
I have to repeat David's question. Is this parody again?
Yeah, it's parody. The only question is whether it is intentional parody. "Our Breath is our Creativity?????" Good Grief...it's nonsensical on sooo many levels. Just the attempt to make "breath" into a proper noun pushes into crank territory, let alone the breath==creativity nonsense. And that's your goal. If that's true, you really are batshit crazy.
Scote - can you please just ignore me as I do you?
Show some common decency please, it's not much to do.
Get outside a take a walk, get that edge off.
I recant Scote - my message was intended for another poster.
Whilst you frustrate me, I find you most amusing and border-line enjoyable to read your shots.
@Carly
I do, on occasion, find you somewhat amusing as well. A reasonably pleasant troll can sometimes liven up a thread.
I'll assume you are ignoring me then?
Why? Don't like the questions?
BigDumbChimp, it was a general misreading. Nor have I noticed any questions from you either.
Huh?
Maybe you should scroll up?
Uh, what Rev. BDC said. Nice of you to include the argument from ignorance, though.
whatever.
Come, come, now. That's no way to respond. While you may have in fact not "noticed any questions from" RevBDC ("argument from ignorance") that doesn't mean they don't exist, and, indeed, they are there in print for all to see.
"Whatever" is a non responsive answer. Perhaps you should do some yoga instead of posting if you aren't actually going to engage in conversation.
exactly. i am not responding.
Move to strike. Non-responsive. Permission to treat the witness as hostile?
No, it could not. You are making one of the classic crank fallacies, data fitting.
I'm doing nothing of the sort, so spare me the omniscient blog-bully multi-posting crap. If you had read my post before beginning your own flurry, you might have realized that I didn't agree with the concept of "harmonizing", whatever the woo it means. Earlier in the thread, someone asked Carly to provide evidence that yoga can influence the nervous system, and the erroneous assumption that "yoga = asanas only" was made in several comments. The meditation component of yoga was also ignored. I made no claims for cures of diseases, psychiatric or otherwise.
Please explain to me how the research presented in the papers (particularly the first two rat studies) I cited above does not support the hypothesis that the breathing cycle can influence neural activity, in the form of cortical oscillations. If you can't do that, then perhaps you should stop whacking perfectly reasonable commenters (e.g. myself) with your facking stupid ScienceBorg double standards, and go do something else for a change. Just a suggestion.
Here are two additional papers, abstracts included, which you can fail to read:
4. Vialatta, F.B., Bakardjian, H., Prasad, R., and Cichoki, A. (2008). EEG paroxysmal gama waves during Bhramari Pranayama: A yoga breathing technique. Conscious Cogn. (Epub)
Here we report that a specific form of yoga can generate controlled high-frequency gamma waves. For the first time, paroxysmal gamma waves (PGW) were observed in eight subjects practicing a yoga technique of breathing control called Bhramari Pranayama (BhPr). To obtain new insights into the nature of the EEG during BhPr, we analyzed EEG signals using time-frequency representations (TFR), independent component analysis (ICA), and EEG tomography (LORETA). We found that the PGW consists of high-frequency biphasic ripples. This unusual activity is discussed in relation to previous reports on yoga and meditation. It is concluded this EEG activity is most probably non-epileptic, and that applying the same methodology to other meditation recordings might yield an improved understanding of the neurocorrelates of meditation.
5. Cahn, B.R., and Polich, J. (2006). Meditation states and traits: EEG, ERP, and neuroimaging studies. Psychol. Bull. 132(2), 180-211.
Neuroelectric and imaging studies of meditation are reviewed. Electroencephalographic measures indicate an overall slowing subsequent to meditation, with theta and alpha activation related to proficiency of practice. Sensory evoked potential assessment of concentrative meditation yields amplitude and latency changes for some components and practices. Cognitive event-related potential evaluation of meditation implies that practice changes attentional allocation. Neuroimaging studies indicate increased regional cerebral blood flow measures during meditation. Taken together, meditation appears to reflect changes in anterior cingulate cortex and dorsolateral prefrontal areas. Neurophysiological meditative state and trait effects are variable but are beginning to demonstrate consistent outcomes for research and clinical applications. Psychological and clinical effects of meditation are summarized, integrated, and discussed with respect to neuroimaging data.
Thank you so much Barn Owl.
Perhaps it is true, the world is not ready.
That wasn't your claim. Your claim was"Perhaps this could be considered "harmonizing"?" However, you are data fitting, looking at an outcome and saying "perhaps" that outcome could be considered "this vague undefined woo word." Because "harmonizing," as used in alternative medicine, is so vaguely, if at all, defined, you can look at virtually any study outcome and say "Perhaps this could be considered "harmonizing"?" It is a non-falsifiable claim, thus a non-scientific one and not one you can make based on the data in the study you cited.
Your other studies are irrelevant until you define your terms in a rigorous, meaningful and testable way. "Harmonizing" is as vague as "aligning your energy fields" or "detoxifying." Vague and meaningless terms are the stock in trade of the woo field and their vagueness allows people like you to look at studies and say unsupportable things like "Perhaps this could be considered "harmonizing"?"
"Perhaps it is true, the world is not ready."
Or, more likely, the woo-woo aspects of yoga are made up claptrap and yoga is physically and psychologically related to all other forms of exercise and meditation--no magic, no vague "harmonizing"--just stretching, exercise and mental focus. Useful in limited ways? Sure. Magical healing properties? No.
If you're "argument" is completely circled around a word, then yes, i don't think you're ready for this jelly.
"If you're "argument" is completely circled around a word, then yes, i don't think you're ready for this jelly."
Actually, Carly, it was you who first made the claims about "harmonizing."
"Yoga harmonizes the glandular and nervous systems, making bodies strong, taking away vices that causes people to get stuck in their heads"
And my argument isn't just about a word, it's about your lack of evidence for un-defined claims. You use words like "harmonize" as though they have some specific meaning, yet when asked to define "harmonize" you don't (probably "can't). So, I'm using the terms you yourself introduced and showing that they are not sufficient to make scientific claims about yoga.
And yes, talking to you about science is like nailing Jello to a wall. The deliberate wishy-washy vagueness helps.
It's biology and physics, so yes, that's science!
and of course chemistry as well.
If you're too myopic to realize it's not just about the word but how you so casually throw it out as if it has some special meaning then I think you're ready for this jelly (whatever the hell that means).
It's a Beyonce quote. I think you need to lighten up and enjoy some good pop music.
"I think you need to lighten up and enjoy some good pop music."
Non responsive.
Here's my take on how things are working.
Carly, ""Yoga harmonizes the glandular and nervous systems"
Everybody, "Define "harmonize.""
Carly, "Look! Over there! Something shiny!"
Everybody, "Sigh..."
I already said what I meant by harmonize, and it's a perfectly legitimate word. The fact that it's been the centre of focus shows a clear red herring.
I'll pass on the beyonce. Not my style. I'd rather have some James brown, Miles Davis, Parliament, Herbie Hancock or other funky jazzy music. I'll not comment on the "good pop music" as that is subjective.
I'm a very light hearted person but this is a blog where you made assertions. Blogs are places of discussion. You seem hell bent on not discussing points you've made and then were asked to clarify. You've dodged my questions over and over and I'm asking you to stop lightening up and answer them. Telling me to lighten up is just another side step of the questions.
If you don't feel like answering then just say so. It doesn't lend credibility to your opinion but it is an answer.
I already said what I meant by harmonize, and it's a perfectly legitimate word. The fact that it's been the centre of focus shows a clear red herring.
How is it a red herring. it is central to the point you were trying to make about Yoga. And you have not defined it nor have you provided support for it. You said.."It could be..."
I want to know specifically what "harmonizing the glandular and nervous system" means. If you don't have an answer that's fine. I'm getting bored with you dodging the question anyway and I'm sure others are bored of me asking it, you not excluded from that group.
Sorry screwed the blockquote tags there. the first two sentences should be blockquoted.
I posted links and that was the best way to describe it.
They didn't go through, you'll just have to take the time to look it up yourself!
"I already said what I meant by harmonize, and it's a perfectly legitimate word. "
Ahh...equivocation. Another crank mainstay. Yes, "harmonize" is a legitimate word. We aren't discussing whether or not its a word. We are discussing what it is supposed to mean vis-a-vis "yoga," and then specifically a clear, rigorous and meaningful definition that can be used in a scientific context. You have punted on that issue. Saying you attempted to post links and that it is RevBDC's responsibility to follow those non-posted links is disingenuous, at best. But, you should provide the definition, not links to it. If you can't even quote a meaningful definition I'll have to consider that a concession that you can't find a definition that is useful in a scientific context that also supports your contention.
You get boring when you dodge obvious facts. Define how "Yoga harmonizes the glandular and nervous systems" in a legitimate, scientifically meaningful way, and without your usual "Oh, look over there!" dodge.
I'll take that as "I don't have a good answer. I was parroting something groovy I heard on the yoga sites but I don't really know what that means if it actually means anything."
Thanks
If anything, some more esoteric schools of yoga are potentially damaging to people with paranoid delusions and in the process of a psychotic break since they tend to characterize it as "enlightenment" or as "detoxing" that only more yoga and faith will "cure". (Kundalini yoga as taught by Yogi Bhajan and his 3H Organization falls into this category since it departs quite a lot from Hatha yogas and involves some, shall we say, special yogic teachings made up by Bhajan, including some incredibly sexist ideas about women and women's bodies).
I can't see how being "audited" by a group of people who believe that they're trying to free people from evil alien overlords that control humans (and are responsible for all human failings, etc) could in any way, shape or form be anything but damaging to someone who's suffering from a break with reality. Of course, since Scientology's belief system was concocted by a scifi writer who was greedy and paranoid, and hated psychiatrists because he clearly wasn't sane and had to deal with them in a divorce proceeding - all of which has been "rationalized" into a belief system - all it's going to do is confirm to a schizophrenic that "they" (evil aliens, psychiatrists, and everyone who isn't one of "us") are out to get them. What an awful, almost mind boggling, cycle of suffering begetting suffering.
Pal - You, sir, are a badass. Stepped in and did what needed to be done when your psychiatrist colleague was too much of a pansy to do so. Rah!
Yeah, well a few bridges were damaged.
"I can't see how being "audited" by a group of people who believe that they're trying to free people from evil alien overlords that control humans (and are responsible for all human failings, etc) could in any way, shape or form be anything but damaging to someone who's suffering from a break with reality. Of course, since Scientology's belief system was concocted by a scifi writer who was greedy and paranoid, and hated psychiatrists because he clearly wasn't sane and had to deal with them in a divorce proceeding - all of which has been "rationalized" into a belief system - all it's going to do is confirm to a schizophrenic that "they" (evil aliens, psychiatrists, and everyone who isn't one of "us") are out to get them. What an awful, almost mind boggling, cycle of suffering begetting suffering."
Unfortunately it gets much much much worse than this, imagine learning that everything bad that has ever happened to you is your fault.(after all, according to "church" doctrine you pulled it all in!) That you are not only responsible for your past actions but anything bad you did in a past or future life. And if you didn't see it coming, bad thoughts are just as bad as actually following through with the action as well. And don't even think of keeping anything to yourself, that is a high crime in the CoS! What an Orwellian mind fuck!
Gee, no posts on this in over a year? Did everyone get tired? Or are you all blissing out? Anyway, just wanted to comment that I don't agree with everything Carly said here, and mostly side with the "define then support" crowd, but as an aside... Carly is clearly the nicest person in this discussion, and the one I'd most like to have a beer with. And maybe Scote would be fun after I've had a few. Rev. BDC? Sure, but BYOB!
;)~