Only Men Can Prevent Rape -- By Not Raping Women

Brilliant. Thanks for posting this!

Only Men Can Prevent Rape -- By Not Raping Women

Except of course lesbian rape. You can't pin that on men.

You need to look up the Rapist Checklis from Biting Beaver.

http://bitingbeaver.blogspot.com/2006/10/repost-of-old-favorite.html

Okay, first, I don't want to be dismissive of the problem. If people don't want to discuss the formatting/message of the list, and how I don't think it actually serves what it seems its purpose should be, don't read my reply. I won't be offended. To try to be directly contributory, I agree with the core sentiment that rape happens because of rapists, and I would point people at http://www.girl-wonder.org/insideout/?p=16 as a takedown of the 'standard media rape scenario' of a drunk girl in a dark alley. http://thehathorlegacy.info/rape-statistics/ is also worth a look.

That said, I personally do not like this somewhat copy-pasted/chain-lettered/forwarded list (and I've seen it in numerous ways before). It tells men that rape is their problem too, and tries to turn it into a mens issue, and here are all these things that are rape (including pedophilia) ... and then shuts them out of the discussion, or how to deal with it, or dealing with the assumption that men only rape women (male normative language used in referring to rapists), or, or, or... what is someone's response supposed to be? 'I didn't know?' (It is a bit better posted here than at some other places I've seen it, in that this has a 'wider' audience, and hence someone who actually _doesn't_ know might actually come across it. But.)

It tells the men in the audience that they're in control... by treating them like they're 5 years old right up until the last sentence. Which is it? Are men in control, or are they 5 years old unable to tell what rape is?

There _is_ a certain turn-it-on-its-head in the concept (treating men like children instead of treating women who are raped like they're irresponsible) but it doesn't do it _persuasively_, nor does it make that clear enough to convince anyone who isn't already convinced or familiar with the general problem well enough to recognize the twist. (If I were writing it to make that point, I would put it in paragraph form, as per a discussion, not a laundry list. Unless there is a laundry list it is based off of?) It makes me wonder, time and again, if the audience for it is actually men, and convincing men to take up against their invisible privilege and their role in perpetuating sexism and rape. And if the audience is not men... well, it's just a bit offputting, that, that there'd be a list telling men what kind of rape-thoughts they have that they need to control that no man was supposed to read and come to terms with. The list ultimately always leaves me a bit confused as to its purpose, as when read carefully, it seems muddled.

This bit of discussion has tempted me to try to 'fix' it... except that, as a guy, I'm not sure I can reasonably do so. Which is weird. If rape is a male problem too.

-Mecha

Waaa, this list was mean to me...

Perhaps you think it's funny to be dismissive, Aerik. I don't.

If you think what I wrote has actual problems, since they have not been dealt with effectively in any of the Feminism 101 FAQs or in any explicit treatment reletive to this list, I would be glad to hear some sort of comment. I offered a fairly detailed analysis of why I thought it missed the message.

(To be further directly contributory, I actually like the Rapist Checklist you linked better, at the moment. And I think it's because the majority of the lines use if. That one word makes an enormous tone difference. No longer is it a lecture to 5 year olds, and only men, but a set of guidelines for people, both men and women, who never learned, or don't know, as so many people on both sides of the sex fence seemed to have in the comments.)

-Mecha

Two points:

First, speaking of five year olds, why is it that so many grown adults of both sexists can be in earshot of someone who says "you can't rely on the assumption that other people are going to behave decently or ethically and you should take sensible steps to protect yourself" and somehow hear "it's all your fault if someone takes advantage of you?" How could this conflation possibly make sense to anyone with a post-kindergarten mindset?!

Second: The problem with lists like this is that the people (mainly, but not exclusively men) who could possibly be persuaded that raping other people (mainly, but not exclusively, women) is wrong by anything like this don't need to be told in the first place. Since it's going to have zero effect on the people whose behavior is the actual problem, it's basically masturbatory. The only thing this kind of campaign might accomplish is encouraging certain people (especially men, but apparently an appallingly nonzero number of women also think that forcing sex is acceptable if, for instance, the man's spent a certain amount on a date) to send the message to other people (mainly men) that rape is not funny, cool, or acceptable, and even then, most people whose minds could be changed by something like this don't need to be told in the first place.

Another approach that might be useful would be more efforts to discourage and shame people who make genuinely false reports of being raped or sexually assaulted, since this is not only potentially devastating to the reputation and future aspirations of the wrongly accused, but contributes to the social perception that women commonly lie about being raped, making it that much harder for people who have in fact been victimized to obtain justice. More people of both sexes, I think, are more likely to take sexual assault (as a social problem, not just a "don't want it happening to me!") seriously if it's driven home to them that first, false reports of rape are rare (and ensuring this is in fact the case), and second, that this behavior is also pathological and unacceptable. Note that the issue here is societal perceptions, many of which make people more likely to be inappropriately skeptical of a specific woman's claims whether they're sound or not, and less likely to take the entire concept seriously. *waits for some blockhead to misconstrue the above as a claim that all or most reports of rape are false and should be ignored, or something equally moronic*

Err, both sexes. Freudian slip. x.x

Mecha, I am certain I disagree with what you are trying to say, but cannot comprehend your point enough to elaborate my disagreement.

I am in 100% agreement with Ms. Hedwig on this subject. Men shouldn't rape women. Period, end of story. Unfortunately, there will always be men who think it's okay to rape women just as there are men who think it's okay to rob banks, stick up 7/11 stores, etc. The point is for women to be aware of this unfortunate fact and take precautions. For instance, it's only being prudent not to go out alone in an area with no people around at night.

Azkyroth:

In regards to your first paragraph: Women are victim blamed massively for rape. Incredibly so. Not just 'take precautions' (even though some of the precautions make the assumption that the only women that are raped are the ones who show off how they look) but 'you walked outside alone at night, what did you expect' or 'you let someone into your house at all, what did you expect?' That's awful. And it creates some really bad expectations. Especially if men are never told not to rape explicitly (I was in a discussion recently where a woman mentioned that she was told things about how to avoid rape. How many men got a discussion which told them about rape and permission? I know I didn't.) Read the post at http://www.girl-wonder.org/insideout/?p=16 (and the others in that series) which talk about how rape is not this media perception of 'don't get drunk'. That's clearly what this post is aiming _towards_.

In regards to your _last_ paragraph: How do you know if something is a false accusation of rape? Rapes are notoriously hard to prove. What sort of situation does that end up creating, one where we post the pictures of women who were involved in rape accusations and say, 'Look! False accuser! But hey, if you're raped, come forward, you won't be treated badly... really... honest...' Coming forward with rape accusations is hard enough for a lot of people. I don't think that shaming is going to solve the false accusation problem. It's more likely to just make people who were raped less likely to come forward, and that's really not what society needs.

-Mecha

Guthrie: Um... My 'point' was in regards to the effectiveness and message of the list. Which is partially a meta-discussion, which is why I said ignore it if you want. Not everyone's interested in discussing how to make a message better. But as I don't have anywhere else to _discuss_ this, I discuss it in the forum it came up in. Again, if this does not interest you, please ignore me completely (without being insulting, I'd hope.)

My argument is: The list, which seems to be talking to men (Who's it telling 'don't rape her?' It's not women.) isn't actually addressed to men, or meant to convince men who currently might disagree with the list. It doesn't seem like it would _work_ to convince a man who didn't believe any of this was rape that it was rape. It is ultimately, then, comes off as a confused message.

Other discussions of the list elsewhere have created the idea that this effectively makes rape a 'men's problem'. But that isn't particularly effective if the message isn't sent. As such, the interpretation that it _isn't_ effectively geared towards men, as it doesn't seem to be (see above argument) means that I take issue with it as it doesn't perform its function.

If it's really geared towards women, that's okay, but it doesn't seem like it's _trying_ to be. It seems like it's trying to be aimed towards men. Again, contrast to the Biting Beaver list linked above: The tone is very different between them, even though they argue similar points.

Okay, I'm way overposting on this. Hopefully this makes it clear enough that people can talk about it or not.

-Mecha

The problem with the "Rapist Checklis from Biting Beaver" is that it mixes things that are obvious and fairly insulting to any non-moronic male with fairly outrageous claims in an attempt to pass the whole thing off as obvious and impossible to argue with. And I say this as a self-identified male feminist who understands how this issue is unfairly hidden and unfairly delt with, and the damage that causes.

But when they try to slide in claims like, "if you talk her into it, you're a rapist", they're really not helping anybody. If you talk her into it, you might very well be an asshole. But they're basically assuming women lack the ability to make decisions like an adult human being and so insulting themselves in the process.

On the title: it reminds me of a very disturbing thing I read on the Red Army, that decribed how female soldiers would occasionally approve of and watch the male soldiers rape locals. It made me realize how messed up views on rape can become. That, and the fact that most Soviet veterans either denied rape occured, or thought that rape was one of the best things you could do to a woman. Sometimes I wonder if we should spend less time explaining how to defeat a rapist, and more time telling potential rapists that rape is not a good thing.

Mecha:

Not being an idiot or a five year old, to use your words, I'm aware that many people are prone to blaming the victim. How does adding to this by conjuring up or postulating victim-blaming where none exists help this situation?

As for the third paragraph, I think that socially we should be sending the message that falsely claiming to be raped is not acceptable, just like we should be sending the message that committing rape is not acceptable; targeting individual accusers doesn't necessarily help this and isn't what I had in mind. As to identifying false accusations, cases where the accuser can't settle on one story of events or their story demonstrably contains critical materially false statements serve as pretty good examples.

- If your mom is making a sandwich, don't rape her

Yes, because if one is being sarcastic, he must literally be laughing about it, right?

Allow me to point you to a recent example of what's going on here, via some livejournal activity. One submitted a "don't rape her" list just like the one grrl has shown, and submitters just like you wrote in talking about how offended they felt.

Here is a response.

Another reader said that he also felt attacked (which he found strange because not only is he absolutely disgusted by the thought of harming another being, but because he has zero sexual interest in women) but also pointed out that I wasn't necessarily speaking to the friends on my list, but speaking out in general, in a culture of silence, as a gesture of solidarity and/or rage.

That's true; that was in fact what I was doing. I wasn't aiming the list at my male friends, simply because I didn't think about the possibility that my male friends would abuse women. And statements like "Tell your sons/godsons not to rape women" or "If your buddy rapes someone, tell him he's a rapist and call the police" are for any gender.

Snip.

Rapists are not natural disasters. They do not live independent from society, emerging only to strike with devastating force when they are least expected. Rapists live amongst us. Most of them have friends and family and workmates. Most rapists have people who care about them and people they care about. Many rapists do not even know they are rapists. Until the mid-1980s in New Zealand, a man who forced sexual intercourse onto the woman he was married to was not, legally, a rapist.

Rapists are real people. Rapists have little girls and sisters and female cousins and girlfriends and wives and mothers, which is why "Would you do this to your sister/mother?" is a strategm that has occasionally worked in making a potential rapist realise that the person he's about to violate is, in fact, a *person*. Often - very, very often - a rapist *does* rape his sister/wife/daughter/mother.

It is a nasty, hard thing to face up to, but those 34% of women were abused by somebody. Many somebodies. Maybe somebody I know. Maybe somebody *you* know.

Maybe - and I don't want to say this, or even think it, but it *is* possible - maybe you.

So you feel offended that grrlscientist didn't piss and moan and go through all the motions to say, "Oh, I don't mean you, or you, or you, or you," ad infinitum. Cry me a river. The fact is, there is no dependable profile for a rapist. You do not look like a rapist, so you think, but I'll tell you what, since rapists are most often friends and family, you sure as hell don't look like you aren't a rapist. And this shit you just gave us about how unfair it was that grrlscientist didn't take the time to get to know every single man out there and give them a thumbs up or a thumnbs down is just bogus.

I live every day knowing that there is a very high chance that at some point I will be raped, and that it will be by someone I think is my friend.

For those of you who don't live with that, please take a moment to think what that would be like. Think how infuriating it would be to be told that I can "avoid" rape by taking care of myself. Think how devastating it would be to *be* raped, and go to the witness stand, and be asked "Were you drinking? Were you wearing provocative clothing? Did you struggle?"

Telling me to be careful when I walk alone at night does very little to change that chance, because I am much less likely to be raped by a stranger. It merely increases my fear. I have no idea what it's like to live without the fear of rape. In my entire lifetime, it is extremely unlikely that I will *ever* know what it's like to live without that fear.

The truth really is that potential victims can only resist rape. And since you said you liked the rapist checklist, you have to deal with the reality that most rapists do not see themselves as rapist nor malignant, so the fact that you don't think you feel like a rapist and you don't think you look like a rapist is irrelevant.

So yes, I dismiss your indignance, because you don't deserve to be indignant. You don't have a right to be liked. You don't have a right for the woman walking alone in the park in front of you to just not assume you're a potential rapist.

Once again, cry me a river.

So, Aerik, leaving aside the fact that your comment has absolutely no relevance to what either Mecha or I were getting at, what is it that the men here who don't commit rape or other forms of sexual abuse could do that would make you happy?

You know, most of the stranger lectures I ever got on rape or it's little brother, sexual harassment, came when I was a Marine, which might seem surprising until you realize the operating conditions: first, Marines, male and female, live in a hyper-masculine world of machismo; second, there's never enough sex, you're too damned busy training or sleeping or training to sleep or some damned thing that takes you far away from anyone not a WM (woman marine), and they're so rare and so dangerous that it's better to avoid them (or so we're told); third, we get to redirect all _that_ energy into violence, which can seem better than sex (and anyone who's ever fired a crew-served weapon knows what I'm talking about).
But the lectures, which I alluded to above: women are the devil, one sexual harassment or rape charge and you're doomed (ditto adultery if someone involved is married--this happened to my first roommate a week before his discharge; he got eight years in Leavenworth from a woman he had a consensual relationship). Only thing more funny was the lectures to check the "ladies" for, um, packages should you get too desparate! How I survived I'll never know.
And that's the pointless anecdote of the day.

So how about this: only men can prevent rape of women by men, by not raping women. However, since some men will not heed this, it is wise for women to avoid placing themselves in situations that make it much easier for them to be taken advantage of, and to learn how to defend themselves if a man does attempt to rape them. Can we agree on this, or am I about to spend another frustrating hour trying to explain to grown adults the difference between "contributing cause" and "primary moral responsibility?"

The problem with lists like this is that the people (mainly, but not exclusively men) who could possibly be persuaded that raping other people (mainly, but not exclusively, women) is wrong by anything like this don't need to be told in the first place.

Since it's going to have zero effect on the people whose behavior is the actual problem, it's basically masturbatory.

Actually, when presented in the frame of 'rape is exclusively perpetrated by men on women' it can possibly be harmful. It is true that the only man I have heard describe a rape attempt claimed he was able to fight the attacker off and was pretty cool about the episode. But having to hear several women describe rapes and seeing their traumas, I can't but wonder how it must feel for men and children (other than step-daughters) to see such a dismissal of an all too common and terrible crime.

I guess what I am trying to say is that even if women is the most common victim by far, it happens to children (of both sexes) and men as well; rape has no sex or age.

But otherwise the list exemplifies some problematic attitudes behind the phenomena that should be brought out into the light and discussed.

I'm still waiting for someone to respond to jeffk's comment. There is no way to be nice about this: the woman who posted this has at least a few screws loose. In the first three points, the author clearly states that man having sex with a drunk woman = male rapist, and drunk man having sex with a woman also = male rapist. This is feminism gone completely bonkers.

Yes; by that list I'm a rapist. I've had drunk sex and I've also convinced a girl to have sex with me (took me two years!).

I really really want to like feminism, to support to, to even spread its gospel so to speak. But I can't shake the feeling that the current generation of feminists are third-wave (generally pro-sex with a little acknowledgement of biological realities) academically but second-wave (generally anti-sex and no acknowledgement of reality whatsoever) when they're feeling cranky.

Sorry, I should clarify by "that list" I'm referring to the Biting Beaver list, not the one in the post above. Yikes!

You can't use moral suasion to completely eliminate a crime. Telling people "rape is wrong" (I highly doubt you could get anyone to publically affirm that "rape it right", unless that person was a psychopath) in most cases is condescending and in other cases futile. In almost all cases people know it's wrong to perpetrate such a violent act upon women, but those who are inclined to do just that aren't going to persuaded to stop with such facile platitudes and thus women should take caution against them.

Aerik: I am afraid that you didn't actually deal with my argument. You pulled up a lot of the arguments that _do_ happen against the list, but you did not actually deal with what I said.

I am very familiar with the concept of 'feminists don't hate men', while you assume that 'feminist hate men' underlies my discussion. Bringing up the 'right to be liked' argument as well indicates that you know the moves, as it were, but are assuming I'm using them. I did, in fact, say that the 'rape happens because of rapists' idea behind the list is accurate, and I support it. That doesn't make the list perfect or effective as a persuasive tool.

The concept that kphoebe brings out in her response that her 'friend who was also offended' said is the exact concept I'm getting at. The list is not meant for men, or convincing, despite being written as if it is verbally addressed to men. Admitting that after the fact (as kphoebe did) is different from saying 'You've got to hedge!'

Please read what my protest was again. I made it fairly clear that it's not about 'hedging' or trying to say 'I know all men aren't rapists, _but_'. It's about explicit tone. And if you make it into a screed, that makes that clear, but it also removes the idea that it's constructed to persuade or talk to people, instead leaving only the underlying message to be evaluated as 'honest.' It makes the way it was written, and the effects it has, a nasty side-effect. But a real one.

I realize this sort of discussion hits a lot of the 'you're being dismissive' hot buttons. I have tried, _myself_, very hard to avoid them, explicitly. Other posters haven't. There's not much more I can do than what I have to make it clear that the sentiments behind the list are not what bothers me. I've linked, I've verbally supported, I've even argued a bit with other posters that didn't get it. If you're still going to dismiss me and paint me with the fat brush of privilege troll... I can't really respond to that except how I did above.

-Mecha

i am pleased to see so much discussion about this list. i posted it for that reason, after all. i will say that i generally agree with the list, but i differ from the list because i do think that women should learn how to protect themselves by taking a self-defense class, at the very least. i also think that neither women, nor men, should walk alone at night because of the prevalence of violent crimes (not only rape).

anyway, thanks for your thoughts on the matter.

I think this list is a worthy effort. Everything on it seems completely reasonable and right.

Yes, this won't sway the hardcore. Of course not. It would be like Dawkins lecturing at the Baptist Convention. What things like this actually do is to change the general atmosphere. The more disapproval is heaped on rape, the less it will happen. The borderline people, who might or might not engage in an act of rape, may be discouraged from doing it by guilty thoughts brought upon by hammering like this, rather than unspoken (or even spoken!) approval. Especially for cases like, say, drunk sex or something (unbalanced drunkenness, that is - if both are drunk it's fine, if stupid). Someone may *know* what they're doing is wrong, but not *feel* that it is, you know? Constant reinforcement from all of society, though, can change that.

Nobody's going to be directly discouraged by something like this. But the indirect effect, which reaches through all people and affects you subtly, can be powerful. And we need to encourage that.

GrrlScientist: I'm, um, glad you're pleased about there being discussion. Aheh.

You mention that you think women should learn to protect themselves. The line in the post that comes from ('Don't tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape') line is, I believe, one of the most explicit flaws in the construction of the list (which I've pointed out before). I know why it's there (because just telling women isn't enough, and won't keep them safe at all) but the lack of the word is problematic, for just that reason: It makes people think that the list is advocating _not_ warning women in any way, and that's... impractical, I guess, in this modern world?

Adding the word 'just' in that line, or breaking out the problem with saying 'stay safe' and 'avoid rape' in the same sentence, helps make it clearer that our societal responsibility does not (and should not) end at trying to tell women and young girls (in some non-blaming way), that there are people that will rape them. In my opinion.

-Mecha

A piece about rape that does not upset its readers is not reflective of reality, and is therefor a communication failure.

It's important to be polite, and to be diplomatic, but some topics are inescapably upsetting by their very nature, and no useful effort to communicate them can be inoffensive.

Some grumpy and politically incorrect comments:

1) Rape can not be eliminated until it's first recognized as part of the status quo. Denial is futile.

1a) Any approach assuming that rape is purely and exclusively an aberration against the laws of God/Goddess/nature/Geneva is based on denial.

2) Any effort at social reform based on the premise that "everything would be fine if everybody else would just do as I say", is hopeless.

2a) Neither law, social sanctions, nor even public education, can make bad things disappear, much less "unhappen".

2b) Any attempt to manipulate any of those three means toward a pre-specified end (such as eliminating rape) opens the door to similar manipulations by others. Those others are likely to have very different goals, and may well be more powerful than you are. (q.v. Clinton impeachment, NAFTA, educational "reform".)

3) The "rape question" is inextricably tangled with our evolutionary history.

3a) A basic part of the difficulty in preventing rape, is that human instinct is a lot more accepting of rape than either modern law or modern morality. (q.v. Stockholm syndrome, frat-house parties, arranged marriages, et pluribus alia.)

3b) The conflict between instinct and modern sensibilities has a nasty tendency to disrupt both legal process and personal responses. Consider the "failure to resist" bugaboo, remembering that most people do not consider being raped to be "a fate worse than death". Then consider what happens if the penalties for rape exceed those for murder.

3c) Much of the world's population are lucky if they can count on "rule of law", much less effective protection of the vulnerable. Even here in America, that includes a surprising number of nominal citizens, let alone undocumented immigrants.

the issue here is that human society is all about striving for a perfect society. if we can visualize a perfect world where rape, for example, doesn't exist, well, that is the first step towards realizing that vision.

like i said, i think every woman (and man) should know how to protect themselves because this is unfortunately a part of living with other humans. there will always be criminals where ever we are because criminality is a part of human nature. however, because our evolutionary legacy dictates that rape is an occasionally-successful reproductive strategy does not mean that humans have to succumb to it as part of social policy. we are rational creatures afterall and should be able to determine our social destinies.

I've never understood why society continues to put the responsibility on the victim.

I've never understood why society continues to put the responsibility on the victim.

In general, victims tend to be less powerful, and thus less able to place the black on another party.

because our evolutionary legacy dictates that rape is an occasionally-successful reproductive strategy does not mean that humans have to succumb to it as part of social policy.

Generally agreed, but:

we are rational creatures afterall and should be able to determine our social destinies.

I'm calling non sequitur ... we're not as rational as we like to think, and "our social destinies" are heavily constrained by everybody else's social positions -- many of which are fortified against challenge. I'd say that the single best strategy to reduce rape is simply to support equal status for women across the board. The second best would be self-defense with lethal force, but I already mentioned the problem with that.

Actually, I see I only gave half the problem ... the other half of my 3b is that many, perhaps most, people don't consider "preventing a rape" to be just cause for lethal force. I do, but my reasoning (selective pressure) is a bit abstruse for most people.

Universal education in self-defense is indeed an good thing (for this and other reasons). But note that the need for such represents a flaw in society... ideally, it should be safe to be weak!

Unfortunately, that hope fails before the natural link between sexuality and aggression. And yes, that link is intrinsic. Given that reproduction is an evolutionary mandate... well, aggression is the basic drive concerned with overcoming the competing agendas of other people.

llewelly: A good point, that one cannot always escape offense, but even accepting it as true doesn't mean that every phrasing of a point regarding rape (or another topic) is as offensive or appropriate or effective as the next. It's not a global defense. One has to very specifically point out how the text being criticized carries its message well, and how the offense/insult, as it is done in the piece, is necessary/unavoidable/appropriate, etc, etc, etc.

Well intentioned things just do not necessarily mean well phrased or convincing things. And that's annoying as an feminist ally/insert name here, because you really want them to be.

-Mecha

I've been reading about this post from both sides for a while now. It's at once a satire and a collection of very literal statements. Because I'm used to getting advice about how *I* can prevent rape by everything from not jogging in the dark to turning down jobs where I'm likely to be alone after hours with men, I totally get both the satire and the literal value of this post.

I wonder if perhaps it just doesn't play the same if you're not coming from that culture of fear.

Let's face it: the reason I don't jog in the dark is not that I'm afraid I'll be raped - that's more likely to happen from someone I know. The reason I don't jog in the dark is that if I AM raped, I expect law enforcement to say I deserved it. That's what I've seen happen to women all my life.

And to those of you who are saying only "psychopaths" think rape is acceptable, you are very much mistaken. Or else there are a lot more psychopaths in America than psychiatrists estimate. Where I grew up, not only did a lot of people fail to recognize forms of rape that didn't involve strangers in dark alleys; when I discussed rape cases in the news with local guys, I was sometimes informed, "Well, sometimes you have to rape her." I could never get any elucidation on this point, but all the guys would nod solemnly at each other as they dismissed the rape case as ridiculous feminism.

This scared the hell out of me. I never fully learned to trust men because of growing up in a place like that. I don't think I ever will, because having learned (in horrified self-defense) how to detect attitudes like that more easily than the average person, I'm painfully aware just how many people share them.

My list would be a little bit different, and I covered some of the highlights here. http://feminism.thehathorlegacy.info/the-consent-conversation/

Well, I certainly won't be giving my son a "consent conversation." Perhaps if I had a son...

At any rate, I'm going to teach my daughter to defend herself and ensure she's capable of it, and to avoid putting herself in situations that make her vulnerable without any meaningful gain.

Azkyroth, do you honestly think some karate classes are going to allow a 120 pounds woman to defend herself against a 250 pound man who's willing to use a gun or serious physical injury to get what he wants?

As for "meaningful gain", women have been known to turn down good jobs because they would be working in a situation that puts them alone with men after hours or forces them to walk through dark parking lots unescorted. Just how much responsibility do you want women to take for "getting themselves raped"?

I think that in fact, you can't put the onus on the rapist to "not rape women"; sorry its silly. Instead, we have to admit its up to the majority of "normal" people to do our part to reduce rape by good planning and of course to try to objectively convict the guilty of this terrible crime. I use the term objectively because we still need to give all criminals a fair trial; but even a scantily clad person who is flirting should not be assumed to be giving consent.

First innocent bystanders SHOULD get involved. As an example, when I was 14, I witnessed a friend getting sexually assaulted, "felt" up. I did nothing. I could have at least reported it to the school but kids learn you are not supposed to tell. And YES, more than 20 years later I feel guilty about it.

Second, women, should plan as much as possible to reduce risks.
- Consider not walking alone with iPod or whatevr to obstruct hearing people sneak up behind. One of my friends was raped and murdered by a stranger stalker type of rapist. She had a walk man on, so she never heard him sneak up behind her.
- Avoid going alone in places where you feel at risk.
- Be wary of all the tricks people can use to slip things into your drinks.
- Be wary of the men you are alone with. Sad but true. Look for bad signs such as how they treat others. If somebody is cruel to somebody else they may apply it to you. A mean or selfish streak is a warning sign
- trust your insticts. If you feel uncomfortable around somebody there might be a reason.

ricky mooston:

Hey, I'm male, and if I ever thought a given job was inappropriately putting my personal safety at risk, I'd be outta there faster than you could say "undisclosed adverse conditions".

Similarly, I just don't walk around public spaces with headphones -- I have enough trouble keeping aware of my environment! Admittedly, I do read on public transit, but I wouldn't late at night or if I was drunk, and I do inventory the people around me first.

As for knowing the people you are alone with, I offer the old bromide: "If a man is nice to you, but rude or mean to the waitress, he is not a nice man." (mutatis mutandis as appropriate, of course)

Whoops, sorry about misattributing the job-safety issue to ricky instead of BetaCandy.

I know you guys are presenting thoughtful comments and you're not being unfair or angry or dismissive... but you really aren't getting it.

Women are supposed to be MORE open and friendly and trusting and gushy than men. When we're not, there ARE repercussions. We are perceived as mean or hostile. I've had it said to my face I can't tell you how many times, just because I'm guarded with people until I get to know them. Big strong men in particular.

Men, conversely, are allowed to be guarded and emotionally unavailable without being judged the way I have been judged.

So yeah, I can protect myself from rapists without any help from anyone else, but guys just like you will buy right into the idea I'm a hostile, frigid bitch. Either way, it's your world and not mine, and I get that message loud and clear every day.

BetaCandy: but guys just like you will buy right into the idea I'm a hostile, frigid bitch.

Actually, I doubt I would: It may be a cliche, but I'm really not like most people that way.

That business of insulting someone because they're not leaving themselves vulnerable, is a classic bullying technique. Calling someone "unfriendly" is basically an unanswerable accusation, and meant that way. Likewise "uncooperative", "contrary", "quarrelsome", and others.

With your "supposed to" and "consequences", it sounds to me like you've been afflicted by more than your share of that sort of abuse, but believe me, not all guys act that way. Yes, there are natural costs to enforcing your boundaries, but you already know the costs of not doing so... Too, an "all-or-nothing" approach represents poor boundary control-- the point is to respond to your surround, and to individual people, rather than just reacting automatically.

Who needs all men to act that way? How many do you think it takes to seriously hamper one's life? Not that many; and there are plenty of them out there. Bosses, judges, professors, policemen.

No one is saying all men are rapists. We're saying most rapists are men (something like 97%). And unfortunately "men" is the group that is most privileged and least accountable for its actions.

How do you solve an issue that hinges on a power dynamic like that WITHOUT the privileged group either changing their behavior or getting their privileges taken away from them via social upheaval?

It's not the same as crimes that are committed WITHIN a social group, by members against other members of roughly equal standing.

Feminism blames all men for the wrong doings of a minority of men. Feminism is a hate movement, nothing more. Equality? Where?!?
Why isn't feminism fighting false allegations (varying, depending on which statistic you refer to, from 2% upto 50%) against men who's lives are utterly ruined by the false allegation? In fact, feminism has stated clearly that 'men can sometimes benefit from being false accused'. Ahh, so in short, false allegations of rape are 'ok'.
Why isn't feminism fighting female rapists of men & boys? Why aren't they fighting against child & elder abuse (which is predominantly committed by women, not men)? The questions of hypocrisy go on...and on.

Here here! Who cares about the small minority of false positives! It's worth having a few people's lives ultimately destroyed by the stigma of being called a rapist because we all know that:
- rape only happens when a man takes advantage of another woman
- all rape cases are clearly the fault of the assailant
- the assailant can easily move somewhere else and not be pestered by activists until they commit suicide
- none of the victims could possibly be trying to take advantage of the legal system.

For the attribution and entirety of this statement, see mary's be a Gooddog Blog.

A CHALLENGE TO MY BROTHERS FROM A LAKOTA MAN
Be A True Lakota Man. (slightly edited) Speak Out About Rape George Twiss Management Team Cangleska, Inc.

RAPE is a violent, selfish, degrading, and illegal act. As a man, if your sister, mother, daughter, girlfriend, wife, niece, aunt, friend, co-worker, grandmother, daughter/niece of a friend, or close acquaintance is RAPED, you feel anger and compassion. As a Lakota man, the RAPE of any woman should bring about the same feelings. As a Lakota man, you should be working to make sure this problem in our communities is taken seriously by police and the Court. You should take a stance to protect our women from some of us who have no respect for the sacredness of women and their rights to the security of their own bodies. I challenge you to take that stand and have the courage to tell those of your brothers who need to be reminded that RAPE is not right and not the way of our people. RAPE is a weapon that has been used against our women. It is not our way. For those who make inappropriate jokes about RAPE or feel that a woman is responsible for what happens to her, tell them that no woman asks to be RAPED. Remind them that
WE AS MEN CAN MAKE WOMEN SAFE FROM RAPE BY DOING THE FOLLOWING:

If a woman is drunk, don't rape her.
If a woman is walking alone at night, don't rape her.
If a woman is drugged and unconscious, don't rape her.
If a woman is wearing a short skirt or shorts, don't rape her.
If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 a.m., don't rape her.
If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you're still hung up on, don't rape her.
If a woman is asleep in her bed, don't rape her.
If a woman is asleep in your bed, don't rape her.
If a woman is doing her laundry, don't rape her.
If a woman is in a coma, don't rape her.
If a woman changes her mind in the middle of petting or sex, don't rape her.
If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don't rape her.
If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don't rape her.
If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don't rape her.
If your step-daughter is watching TV, don't rape her.
If you break into a house and find a woman there, don't rape her.
If a woman smiles at you and walks out with you at the powwow, donât rape her.
If you find a woman broke down along the highway, donât rape her.
If your friend thinks it's okay to rape someone, tell him it's not, and he's not your
friend.
If your friend tells you he raped someone, report him to the police.
If your friend or relative at the party tells you there's an unconscious woman upstairs
and it's your turn, don't rape her. Call the police and tell the guy he's a rapist.

Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, and sons of friends, it's not
okay to RAPE. Don't imply that the woman could have avoided rape if only
she'd done or not done something. Don't imply that it was in any way her
fault. Don't be silent when he boasts he "got some" while she was passed
out. Don't perpetuate a culture that tells you that men who RAPE have no
control over or responsibility for their actions.

Be A True Lakota Man. (slightly edited) Speak Out About Rape George Twiss Management Team Cangleska, Inc.