Another Open Letter to Jenny McCarthy

Has any other Playboy playmate received as many Thank You letters as Jenny? What a great strategy to keep one's name in the news....

It isn't just you that haven't seen measles, pertussis, polio, and many other vaccine-preventable diseases. Todays parents and grandparents haven't either. That is what allows the woo to take hold. I can only hope that the recent rash of outbreaks will remind people of the very real problems that vaccines combat.

I have to agree with you that mere thanks are not sufficient.

Could we perhaps persuade the authorities to adopt the marvelous suggestion recently made that disease outbreaks be names like hurricanes?

How does "polio outbreak Jenny 2010" sound?

Unfortunately Jenny will probably never read your post. Probably to busy taking her clothes off somewhere. One does have to admire the body even if it lacks a brain.

PalMD ...
You impudent whippersnapper! If you get really lucky, you can have the privilege of injecting a convulsing 5 year old child with several syringe-fuls of the made-in-horses anti-serum because their parents thought the aluminum adjuvant in the DTaP was too dangerous.

I worked as a lab tech in a hospital that had an infant dying of pertussis in the isolation section of pediatrics ICU. We drew straws and the loser had to call the results to that room ... none of us wanted to hear her coughing her lungs out and inhaling with that horrible squealing noise and getting weaker and weaker. She took several weeks to die, in a modern hospital with all the resources we could throw into the battle.

It was the usual story ... an older unvaccinated sibling caught it from an unvaccinated playmate (source of that infection unknown) and brought it back to the baby sister that was too young for that vaccine. TWO sets of otherwise sensible parents made the deliberate decision to leave their children unprotected ... and a baby died because of BOTH decisions acting together to provide a chain of infections leading to that little girl.

I recently turned 60. When I was a little kid, the threat of polio scared grownups more than the prospect of house fires. That kind of fear is infectious: the memories of it still linger with me.

The gubmint did establish the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/.)

Shouldn't the promoters of vaccine-preventable illnesses (Jenny McCarthy, celebrity spokespuppet) establish a fund to compensate families injured by vaccine-preventable illnesses, such as those in the San Diego outbreak this spring?

Open Letter to Parents Who Don't Vaccinate

The current measles outbreak in San Diego was sparked by an unvaccinated 7 year old child who acquired the disease in Switzerland, and so far has infected two infants too young to be vaccinated. The infants both acquired the highly-contagious disease by being at the Children's Clinic in La Jolla at the same time as the virus-shedding 7-year-old.

One infant (the 10 month old) is hospitalized. The other infant traveled to Hawaii on February 9 with its parents (exposing hundreds of people on the airplane) before being diagnosed and quarantined in Hawaii.

The 10-month-old attends Baldwin Academy; the infants' program is closed until February 26, and others at Baldwin Academy who are not vaccinated must also stay at home until February 26.

I bet the Baldwin Academy didn't refund the infants' program tuition for those missed days. I bet some of those families who were without daycare for their families had to take off work. Maybe families can start suing in small-claims court.

It isn't just you that haven't seen measles, pertussis, polio, and many other vaccine-preventable diseases. Todays parents and grandparents haven't either.

I'm not sure that's true. Although I'm not a parent, I'm not far off the right sort of age - mid 40s. I'm very glad to say I never saw polio, but I did see - and experience - several of the other childhood illnesses which were common back in the 60s. Fortunately neither I nor my sister came to any lasting harm, (afaik). It would be really easy for someone in my position to take the view that they're not that big a deal.

Whilst I don't recall any childhood playmates dying from whooping cough or anything, I did know children who had been damaged by thalidomide. (My own mother had it prescribed when she was carrying me but never took it, although I think she was too far it along to affect me anyway.) That and the continual fear of nuclear armageddon could very easily inculcate a general mistrust of science, making the anti-vaccine arguments appear quite persuasive.

I did know children who had been damaged by thalidomide.

I don't know any children who have been damaged by thalidomide, but I do know several people whose multiple myeloma regressed or even went into remission when they started taking thalidomide, including at least one who was on death's door, literally taking the last treatment that could possibly do him any good before giving up and going on hospice. None have come remotely close to having kids while on thalidomide thanks to some obsessive compulsive pre-drug counseling.

The moral, I suppose, is that a drug is only as good or bad as our understanding of how and when to use it. Thalidomide is bad news as a sedative/anti-nausea drug, but quite helpful for some cancer patients.

According to this news article there have been 127 cases of measles reported in the US as of early July. This is the largest outbreak of measles in this country in a decade.

...a general mistrust of science...

I meant to add that it's a great pity that mistrust didn't extend to Andrew Wakefield. Although I suppose you could argue that what he said had very little to do with science.

Does this impose any risk to my kids, if they've had all their vaccinations?

Simon ... Thalidomide was not approved for use in the USA. The few who had it were prescribed it overseas.

Miss Sherri was a local TV personality who was affected:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherri_Finkbine

Does this impose any risk to my kids, if they've had all their vaccinations?

Nothing is perfect.

Not so long ago (1955) my younger brother got polio. Fortunately, he survived, but his health was never really good, and he died 2 years ago. He also suffered from post-polio syndrome.. Meanwhile, half a world away, my future wife got polio, in the same epidemic as my brother. She still is mildly handicapped. We still remember the terror, the ranks of iron lungs. Vaccines are necessary, beneficial, essential for individual and group immunity. Perfect? No. The polio vaccine was introduced shortly after these events. The next generations don't have a clue about the dangers they have missed.

"Does this impose any risk to my kids, if they've had all their vaccinations?"

I'm not a doctor, but IMHO, by vaccinating, you've done all you can to drastically reduce your kids' risk of contracting some awful diseases. Vaccinations, like any medications, can have side effects, but the risks of not vaccinating, again IMHO, far outweigh the risks of vaccine side effects.

My mother used to talk with that sort of fear about diptheria.
She had seen it. Fortunately I haven't.

Di

I don't usually comment but today I wanted to thank you for being one of the bright lights shining in the inky flood of ignorance that seems to have caught the intertubes unawares with an epic tsunami of antivax twaddle. If I see one more person claim that Louis Pasteur renounced his germ theory as if that is irrefutable proof that vaccines are bad I think I might cry.

I don't blame parents for wanting to be informed about health issues surrounding their children, but when there is so much misinformation couched deliberately in terms that bamboozle and hide the lack of substance it's not surprising many start to believe the nonsense. I wonder why they have mistrust of their own doctor's science, but believe unbendingly in the words of alternative healers they found in a google search.

I have young neices just starting school, I worry for them now that measles is endemic here. Should they be at risk because people remember Wakefield's study but ignore that it was retracted, that the results were shown to be incorrect? That he has been charged with misconduct in relation to that study seems to have passed people by, I still see it's findings posted as gospel truth.

Sorry, I felt I had to get that off my chest.

Yesterday I went to the state fair and two high priests in the Satanic humanist religion (abortion/evolander/vaccine/marxism) were at a "pro-choice" booth, with nobody bothering to talk to them.

So I went to talk with them, and recommended that they practice a little truth in advertising, and display a video sonogram of a fetus, like the pro-life booth a few isles down was showing.

The humanist high priests simply looked down their noses as though I were Christian telling Caiaphas that he had participated in Christ's.

Strange that your religion leads you to want to force all parents to compel their children to participate in the vaccine lottery (whether or not parents actually think it is a good idea). And "for the children."

Yet, most in the evolander/vaccine/abortion crowd would be against requiring the permission of both the father and the mother before an abortion is performed.

I'm heartened to see that in real life, just as you do online, you get the replies you deserve, Wally.

If I believed you were telling the truth, anyway.

Bearing in mind that I am not a lawyer and nobody is safe while the legislature is in session, here's a pleasant parting thought for the antivaccionationists:

The statute of limitations for pediatric victims is tolled until their majority.

Courts are starting to recognize "assault with a deadly virus." In other words, deliberately or negligently risking someone else's health by exposing them to communicable disease may land you in court.

So if you take your unvaccinated darlings on holiday to Switzerland, and on return pass something to a newborn who ends up spending three weeks in ICU and becomes permanently disabled as a result, you could find yourself paying for that infant's medical expenses and lifetime care. What's more, you won't know for up to twenty years later. With interest.

Have a nice day.

Thanks DC! That is good information to know for the influenza season that is starting soon. The courts will be swamped!

Wait a minute, Limp Wally...

What world do you live in? You do realize that evolution, vaccination and abortion are completely different topics, right?

Translation for those who don't speak Trollish:
"I went to the Planned Parenthood booth, and started ranting like a million other fruitcakes. Since they've heard it all a million times, they ignored me. How dare they ignore *ME*? Then they called security, who asked me to leave."

Not Even Wrong.

Thanks DC! That is good information to know for the influenza season that is starting soon. The courts will be swamped!

Posted by: Chuck

This Reading For Comprehension Fail brought to you by the letter F-.

D. C. Sessions,

Laughable, considering that pediatricians and pharmaceutical companies sought and received immunity for prosecution when the vaccines cause problems.

Double standard.

Not surprising, though, since it is from the left.

Um, W2, the whole idea of immunity is critical to public health. It's also the reason for the vaccine compensation fund.

Ill try to use small words for you...

You see, if a drug company is to make vaccines (which, in general, aren't all that profitable with a few exceptions) then they need assurances the wackos won't come after them, otherwise there won't be enough vax's to maintain public health. Still the public needs to be protected from the odd chance of a bad reaction, so a vaccine injury compensation fund exists.

Um, W2, the whole idea of immunity is critical to public health. It's also the reason for the vaccine compensation fund.

... which is fundamentally different from, for instance, an HIV+ individual spitting in peoples' eyes.

Hypothetical question: what happens if someone who knows that she has active pertussis goes to work in a newborn nursery as a volunteer? Does she bear some civil liability?

What happens if someone whose child has (avoidably) contracted measles takes that child to visit an otherwise well baby and that baby contracts it with severe outcome? Is there any civil liability there?

Keep in mind that these questions may well be decided by a jury twenty years from now, when attitudes towards vaccine refuseniks might well have altered considerably -- for instance, as a result of the Great Measles Outbreak of 2012.

And what happens when a doctor gives a measles shot, and a child develops measles, and not only dies, but gives it to other children at her church who were not immunized?

Answer: Nothing, because doctors don't even have to bother learning about such risks since they are immunized from lawsuits.

W(2)TF?

It is impossible to transmit measles from the vaccine.

If we were to ask the question differently, such as what happens if the child has a severe side effect, the question would make sense.

Since you are obviously a denialist and idiot rather than a useful foil, I am probably about to escape my shame by banhammering you.

Since you are obviously a denialist and idiot rather than a useful foil, I am probably about to escape my shame by banhammering you.

Your blog, of course -- but I find the species useful. They're not bright enough to censor themselves and so they say publicly what the better-advised denialists only say privately.

Ah, I admit you could be right about measles. My understanding is that it is an attenuated live vaccine. However, polio can be spread after vaccination, and while live polio is not usually used in the United States, it is used in the world.

I suspect the same might be said of attenuated measles, but again, you could be right.

Banning me would be expected, since you're the denailist.

Regarding the my expulsion from ban at Phartngula, see
PZ Myers Expels (Bans?) a Commenter For Asking Difficult Questions

Oh, right, I remember now. You were the goober who whined for several hundred posts about the Expelled screening, no matter how many times PZ explained that the "invitation" was a matter of registering your name on a public website.

The only thing "difficult" about the question was trying to hammer the answer into your terminally dense, deluded little skull.

Oh, and:

Ah, I admit you could be right about measles.

So, as usual, you admit you don't know the facts; but you sure as heck know DA TWOOF!

I don't expect you to grasp why this rules out any possibility of getting something rational out of you, and is precisely why we just mock you.

Limp Willy, you are a liar.

Extremely tiresome whiner. Insisted on telling me over and over again about the actual events that transpired at the screening of Expelled, never mind that I was there and he was not. Also banned at the Panda's Thumb.

- from Pharyngula's Dungeon

Not that anyone is surprised by that.

Several hundred posts? LOL.

Note the silence on the polio.....crikets (chirping baseless insults, it seems).

Because we know better than to play whack-a-mole with your constantly shifting goalposts?

"Oh yeah, well what if measles... NO! Wait! What if POLIO! ... No, wait, what if..."

If you had any desire to educate yourself, we might be bothered to cite statistics*, but you don't, so we mock you.

* Polio cases 1952: 21,000
Polio cases 1962: <100
Polio cases per year caused by vaccine: <10

Classic subject change. The subject was measles. Limp Willy lied, and when caught changed the subject to polio. He also lied about his ban at Pharyngula, and when caught changed the subject to polio.

Keep galloping, Limp Willy. Someone somewhere might believe you.

Stop beating your wife yet?

Crap, can't do less-than signs without messing up formatting, apparently:

Polio cases 1952: ~21,000
Polio cases 1962: less than 100
Polio cases annually caused by vaccine: less than 10

Okay, that clears up the polio question.

So, Limp Willy. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

minimalist, you have to look at the context of the argument.

If one youth is vaccinated with live polio vaccine, and develops polio, and spreads it to three or four other unvaccinated youth, shouldn't, under D. C. Sessions's reasoning, the doctor who provided the initial vaccine be responsible for the other infections?

One is a statistical anomaly that cannot be predicted or avoided, delivered in the course of a mandated public health initiative based on solid science and demonstrated to prevent tens of thousands of cases of a deadly disease.

The other is a deliberate choice made in contravention of all available medical evidence, against the specific advice of every medical and government official.

Simple to grasp for everyone but you.

W(2)TF...

You were just given the statistics that relate to your hypothetical. Once again, having been proved wrong you change the subject. You might as well ask, "if a dodo bird is cloned and escapes and hits breaks your windshield..."

It wasn't even originally intended as a hypothetical: in some other recent thread, Wally tried passing that story off as something that actually happened to a friend of a friend.

I'll try to find it if you want, but as usual, Wally is not arguing in good faith. And he has the temerity to wonder why he's treated with contempt. This is why he gets banned everywhere he stinks up.

"Um, W2, the whole idea of immunity is critical to public health. It's also the reason for the vaccine compensation fund."

It under-compensates the initial adverse reactions and does not cover all of the related adverse medical problems over the lifeetime of the individual, but it does exist.

"You were just given the statistics that relate to your hypothetical. Once again, having been proved wrong you change the subject. You might as well ask, "if a dodo bird is cloned and escapes and hits breaks your windshield...""

Except, unlike a dodo bird hitting a windshield, my seemingly hypothetical polio case occurred relatively recently.
depp=true
notiz="Jeezus, you're like a friggin zombie. no matter how many times i ban you, you don't quit"

Denialists rarely argue in good faith, so I'm not too surprised minimalist.

The problem is assuming any discussion with people who are immune to evidence, common sense, and basic human decency does any good. They are cranks, ignore them.

I just can't let aggressive, arrogant stupidity slide. I fully admit it is a weakness of mine.

Better learn Mandarin pretty quick guys, it seems like the country where actual medical research is going to be happening in the future is China.

I'm not happy about that, 我祝愿这是美国. But unfortunately we're inundated with unbelievably foolish, dense idiots. I hate to say it but maybe the reason China works so well is that they don't have to appease the fucking idiots in their society. One of the only perks of being a dictatorship, I suppose.

How sad that the United States government has to deal with unspeakably, breathtakingly inane people having the right to drive the country right into a goddamn ditch. Democracy is such a nice idea, but people like Chuck and W2 make it painfully clear that it will never work, because people are overwhelmingly really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really dumb.

How many medical breakthroughs has China been responsible for? China may be an economic powerhouse, but their research is in general poor quality and I'm not seeing any indication that they're improving the conditions under which their research could thrive: such as the stultifying authoritarian structure of their universities, or their unwillingness to recruit talent from other countries.

Other Asian countries could become ascendant in the next few decades, though. Singapore, for instance, has been pushing hard for the last decade to fund massive new biomedical research facilities, and aggressively recruiting top-level Western researchers. But even still, none of them would have the resources that the US can still bring to bear, even as economically sick as we are.

I'd also argue that the reasons China "works so well" probably have more to do with their huge labor pool, use of child-labor and forced labor (political prisoners), lack of concern for standards or quality of living, lassitude about international copyright law, and entwinement of government and industry. Plus they have their own varieties of harmful woo (endangered tiger penis, anyone?)

I'm not terribly worried about the state of the US yet. There are lots of dummies, of course, but the leaders are smart enough to know that science works and crackpottery doesn't. Not always, of course -- see NCCAM -- and science funding tends to go into a slump whenever the kleptocratic Republicans take over (not enough money to funnel to their business cronies and keep R&D going), but it's not so bad that we're in a permanent decline. NCCAM is in probably the best hands you could hope for at the moment (grant review committees always include rationalists now, so the really nutty stuff generally doesn't get funded anymore -- only things that could conceivably have a physical effect, like herb-derived stuff and acupuncture), and a Democratic White House is likely to increase science funding again.

Not to say that we shouldn't keep fighting and keep the loonies in check.

What a surprise -- William Wackjob, religious nut, turns out to be an anti-vaxxer too. But I can't deny a certain curiosity about what his term "evolander" is supposed to mean (apart from having something to do with evolution). I just googled it, and only found a Mitsubishi car.

It's never been entirely clear, but I guess it means we're from the Land of Evolution, also known as The Reality-Based Community.

Everything you need to know about Willy Wally:

He started using the term "evolander" in imitation of the hilariously insane, dumb creationist Keith Eaton, whom WW called a "genius".

This means that either Wally is nuttier and dumber than even Queef Eatin'; he is one of Queef's sockpuppets (or vice versa); or he is the greatest Loki troll ever.

How many medical breakthroughs has China been responsible for?

IIRC, arsenic trioxide, a new treatment for APL, was developed in China. Some really good research is being done in China, although I agree that one should be cautious about results from China unless one knows the group--there's some sub-standard stuff out there too.

Well, shut my mouth. And Googling for the arsenic trioxide treatment, it turns out to have been a Chinese/French collaboration, so that's two petty scientific prejudices of mine punctured, sorta.

I'm actually in basic research, so I rely mostly on press reports for medical science news. But I do know that, petty and prejudiced though this may sound, for all of China's economic power, and what they probably are pouring into research, the vast majority of papers in the mid to high-tier journals are still from Western institutions, particularly the US. In the journals I read regularly, I see much more from Japan, Singapore, and even Taiwan than I've ever seen from Chinese institutions. This is not to dump on Chinese researchers*, but the vast majority I see published are doing so from institutions in other countries.

* (I'm happy to dump on French researchers, though.)

minimalist said "Other Asian countries could become ascendant in the next few decades,"

The chicken pox vaccine, a DTaP vaccine and statins for high cholesterol were developed in Japan.

A quick perusal on PubMed shows that medical research is global effort. Which makes it easy when an anti-vaxer tries to blaim everything on the FDA, the CDC or "the government" in general is to pull research from Japan, Finland, France, UK, Austrailia, Canada and elsewhere --- and then ask them which "government".

"A quick perusal on PubMed shows that medical research is global effort. Which makes it easy when an anti-vaxer tries to blaim everything on the FDA, the CDC or "the government" in general is to pull research from Japan, Finland, France, UK, Austrailia, Canada and elsewhere --- and then ask them which "government"."

The problem with this is that "the government" does not follow the leads of other governments on many medical issues. Sometimes to the citizens benefit, sometimes not.

Another Reading for Comprehension Fail (tm) brought to you by Chuckles the Wonder Troll!

The problem with this is that "the government" does not follow the leads of other governments on many medical issues. Sometimes to the citizens benefit, sometimes not.

Which makes it all the more remarkable that they unanimously agree to support the Great Big Pharma Conspiracy to (for instance) commit genocide in Brazil. Or Africa. The story varies.

No, I'm not joking. References to current TFHery on request.

'The problem with this is that "the government" does not follow the leads of other governments on many medical issues. Sometimes to the citizens benefit, sometimes not.'

So, a conservative, fundie anti-vaxxer is for a public health service? This is new. :D

Im not in sync with all the liberal agnostics doing der stechschritt either.

Well done, you just Godwined.

The countries mentioned no longer have right wing extremists in the government, if they did at all. The only one there was Japan and Finland allied back and forth between Germany and the USSR. Yes, how dare Australia, France and the UK not be Nazis? Get some History, Chuck, you need it. Most of the countries mentioned have great health care systems, some of which are public health care. They give most of the same vaccinations due to worldwide initiatives. Some countries are going to be different to others, but vaccinations as prevention is generally A Good Idea.

As for the 'liberal goose step'? Who said I was liberal or even fell into the very narrow US based way of defining yourself as 'liberal' or 'conservative'? Public health care in some form wouldn't be a bad thing regardless of what 'camp' you fell into.

I imagine this is all going to fly over your head anyway.

Charlie,

I was answering Celeritas' question, but that obviously flew over your head.

If Jenny would prefer a toxin-free, vax-free,pristine environment more balmy than northern Idaho, I suggest she try the "Valley of Longevity" in Ecuador,where Mike Adams is now hawking homesites(see NaturalNews for info).Really.

Actually, Charlie, EVERYTHING flies over Chuckles' head. He either honestly does not see the contradictions in his own babbling, or he is lying.

Yo, Chuckles! You're getting mixed up again. Liberal!=Agnostic. Political views are not necessarily religious views.

Also, Der stechschritt was a reference to Nazi Germany, a *RIGHT* wing fascist government.

Get a clue, monkey boy.

Charlie,

I do want to thank you for bringing Godwined to my attention. I had not heard of this term. I had absolutely no intentions of trying to end this or any other thread. I was offering a sarcastic response to Celeritas. Lesson learned. Thank you.

undergrad, medical school, WHO cares? get over yourself. get in the real world like the rest of us. i hope you never have a child that gets autism and have to eat your words.

I'm actually a bit more worried now knowing that Oprah is backing her up.

Here in the Philippines the government makes it a point to have children vaccinated.

A lot of moms watch oprah too.

This is bad.