Freethinker Sunday Sermonette: another Baptist John that's no saint

"It's an interesting question of what kind of hypocrisy an atheist could commit along the same lines."

If we are talking just atheism proper, that is, nonbelief in gods, then there isn't much opportunity for hypocrisy. One either believes in God or doesn't. Many atheists, though, also identify themselves as being on the side of rationalism, and there are far more opportunities for hypocrisy there: failure to even try to get one's facts straight, reliance on rhetorical games rather than solid argument, and so on.

Atheist hypocrisy might be exposed if you found Hitchens reading his Daily Horoscope, although I guess he could just for entertainment. What if he tossed a coin in the fountain or kissed the Blarney Stone? Refused to open an umbrella inside indoors?

Here's an interesting thought: how does an avowed atheist deal with irrational OCDs, if he has them? Can he explain the need to count his steps or wash and re-wash hands? I know OCD is not bound up in superstition per se, but some sufferers refer to a feeling of dread if they don't follow the exact pattern their disease demands of their neurons.

I'd like once to hear the religious hypocrites admit their imperfection, as well as the masquerade of holiness they hid behind to condemn others. Not very often you see them just throw up their hands and say, "Look, I messed up. I'm great at telling others to walk the talk, but I have found it more convenient to ignore that in my own life."

Like Senator Vitter (and his wife) who wag their fingers at others and then get their weenies and titties caught in the door they are so eager to slam on others?

You should hear the apologists around here saying Vitter's personal life doesn't affect his work, he's still a good person, etc., *puke*. I'm sure these same demented fuckwit hypocrites were helping lead the charge to skewer Bill Clinton for getting fellated. The level of hypocrisy in these people is stunning. I'm sad to say when I was a xtian republican (actually scored just to the left of Pat Robertson on a conservatism quiz once), I was the same way.

Thank pasta I am reformed.

wenchacha: The OCD issue is indeed interesting. Many people use little "rituals" as a way to lessen anxiety (e.g., when they fly), realizing full well it has not rational content or efficacy. Even if you "believe" it has some effect, it is a far cry from personally stroking a rabbits foot to saying anyone who doesn't stroke a rabbits foot deserves to die in a plane crash. Thus people who are blievers but also enteratain doubts I wouldn't classify as hypocrites -- or the other way around.

Jeb: If you follow the links in the post you will find that Privette's friends and associates are following the same line as Vitters' cronies. Personally, since I don't think he sinned in the same way they do, I have no problem with his "crime." Not only does it show he is human but also that his friends are, too. The willingness of friends to be somewhat forgiving is a good thing. The failure to understand others who aren't their friend or who disagree with them on other matters, isn't.

It's an interesting question of what kind of hypocrisy an atheist could commit along the same lines.

Certainly, hypocrisy isn't the provenance of only the religious. The athiest who rails against, say, the war, and then owns stock in Halliburton/KBR or L3/Titan or Blackwater or CACI (or GE or Monsanto or Lockeed-Martin or Boeing or...) is no less a hypocrite than the religious person who does.If the athiest cites his athiesm as the reason for his opposition, I would be puzzled. If he cited his rationality, I don't know what I'd be. Maybe I'd be convinced, since you could then make the "rational" argument that, as long as the US Taxpayer was pouring zillions into the coffers of the War Profiteers, any rational citizen would do what he could to get some back. I might be convinced, but I might be repulsed instead.

I am an atheist who enjoys listening to gospel music. Does that make me a hypocrite?

dc: I hope not. Because I not only like gospel, but I like church music. Bach's B Minor Mass is without a doubt one of the greatest pieces of music I know.

"I'd like once to hear the religious hypocrites admit their imperfection, as well as the masquerade of holiness they hid behind to condemn others."

They admit this imperfection, but only in the bland, sweeping sense of "We're all sinners who need to be saved." So they're taking the liberty of "admitting" that ypou and I are "sinners" too. The hypocrisy lies in their unwillingness to own up to their own specific examples of "sinning" until they're busted.

I don't blame people for wanting to think that the proper mixture of fear and devotion will dispel the base impulses many of us have. Life would be easier, after all, if we could all simply dispose of the urge to do the things we do in spite of knowing better, rather than confront them and deal with them every day. Many alcoholics never completely lose the desire for a drink; this doesn't commit them to resuming drinking, but many of them still buy into praying for "God" to relieve them once and for all of the hankering for a tal cold one.

I think wenchacha has it nailed with the horoscope, though I think Hitchens going to see a palm reader, or somesuch would be more accurate. I know a lot of people who read their horoscopes, then everyone elses, to see how well all of them apply.

I think the OCD is a far different beast though. OCD is caused by chemical imbalances in the brain, it's not something that is easily controlled. While it is certainly expressed through many irrational behaviors, those behaviors are not based on a decision to ignore the evidence that they are mistaken or unnecessary. Rather, it is simply very hard to stop, even if one is aware that the behavior or expression is irrational.

I wouldn't say that the reading of his horoscope would be a hypocritical act on the part of Hitch for the reason that he is not trying to regulate whether or not other people have such a dread habit.

Our friend Privette makes a practice of lobbying to make sin against the law. I have never heard of Hitch lobbying Congress to make woo illegal. In fact, if you have heard him speak on "Hate Speech" laws, then hypocrisy for him would be to censor books from a public library.

If we are talking just atheism proper, that is, nonbelief in gods, then there isn't much opportunity for hypocrisy.

Sure there is - an atheist could reject belief that gods are real entities, but still pretend that the idea of gods as unreality entities makes it possible to believe in them, and thus claim to be a theist.

It would depend upon why someone was reading the horoscope; I regularly read it, but only in order to mock it.

I loved the idea Douglas Adams used in one of the Dirk Gently novels; the guy who writes the astrology column uses it to get digs in at Dirk, so everyone who shares Dirk's sign is depressed all the time because their forecast is invariably awful.

Do the other Christians in Coy's League get the same kind of Action?

The really scary part of this report is the CAL's web site statement:

"...but also undermine the strength of our state and national character..."

I. e., they see it as their moral duty to not just gently dissuade those they disagree with from their erroneous ways, but also as their patriotic duty to forcefully control the behavior of others. This is the foundation of despotism. Will they call for the prosecution of Privette for crimes against the state?

Have we really gone this many comments into the discussion with no one referring to Privette's privates?

There seems to be a predominant theme in this thread that atheism and rationality are equivalent, or at least that one implies the other. I'm not sure that I see the connection. A person can, without hypocrisy, disbelieve in Santa Claus and yet be wildly irrational concerning a great many topics. There is also the implied assertion that any sort of theism and rationality are non-overlapping magisteria.

There is also the implied assertion that any sort of theism and rationality are non-overlapping magisteria.

I would say they are non-overlapping. You have to put aside rational thought to accept things like gods, life after death, etc. for which there is absolutely no evidence.

A person can, without hypocrisy, disbelieve in Santa Claus and yet be wildly irrational concerning a great many topics.

True - yet, no person can believe in Santa Claus and be rational.

Just as no person can believe in deities can be rational - atheism is a necessary precondition.

J.J. Ramsey,

"If we are talking just atheism proper, that is, nonbelief in gods, then there isn't much opportunity for hypocrisy."

Perhaps I am not interpreting that statement properly, but are you saying that one must worship god to have principals, morals and ethics?

That's a load of crap. If an atheist is pushing legislation to end prostitution and is caught with a prostitute, he is just as culpable as the religionist.

I get sick of people trying to infer that athiests are somehow morally inferior. Check out Humanism.

It is the social implications of our actions that are important, not that one acts morally because he is afraid of going to a mythical hell.