CDC confirms FEMA did a heck of a job

Well Revere when I am wrong I say so. But only on the levels of formaldehyde. Outgassing of the formaldehyde should have been done long ago, but it wasnt. So thats a defective material that was used and we aint talking about carpet now. Someone screwed the pooch on it. But its not incompetence on the part of the Bush Administration. They ordered a specification product, they obviously didnt get it. How many government contracts do? Contracting for that many trailers I would say that someone cut corners but then again they were free to the public and I dont see them bolting from them now. Yes, you commented several times on this but I think only because it was a push button topic. Now, lets see we will burn the trailers and throw the people out on the streets.... Urps, cradle to the grave support now. You have no place to live because of formaldehyde. Okay, so pack your stuff and leave because the USGOVT isnt going to take care of you now.

I wonder often what we would do if government didnt get involved in everything we do in life now. Earthquake, hurricanes and general disasters like tornadoes, floods. Lets just hang out and see what happens and become a burden to the rest of the country.

I have a much, much better idea and for me its the one thing that will ensure that we come thru the coming BF disaster in much better shape. That is that we get OUT of the disaster business and only take care of the infrastructure of government when something happens. I mean really, they do such a poor job of government be it Democrat or Republican regardless so lets just get out of it and put it into public information campaigns. People are too stupid to leave and we spent about 750 billion so far on Katrina, Rita and Ivan. Natural urban renewal that says I dont want you on my beaches, or building crap below sea level, or channelizing the Mississippi River thats causing Louisiana to sink into the sea.

Or how about those river floods? They push to be allowed to build property on the previously flooded land behind levees, then we wonder why the rivers take a detour. So we get to the point of spending billions of dollars for what? Stupidity?

No Revere, if they are in the trailers and they are being poisoned by the formaldehyde then they should be out the door by tonight with everything they own. They have their lives with them and they should push on out anyway because the housing they were in before the storms was less than what they had after the storm. I have been in those trailers and they are top notch. But if they are a hazard then they have to go. The amount of formaldehyde is way too high but really, again and again and again is an Administration responsible for putting a roof over their heads? Give them a tent next time and they will move out on their own. Get out of the disaster recovery business because IMO their is never any recovery when you provide it for them.

Hard assed? Not really. If what you are doing isnt working, you try something else. Disaster recovery and management isnt, so they should get cracking on their announcement that you are responsible for yourself...What a concept!

So now where are they going to go?

Bad management. If past FEMA and Bush practice are true to form, we may also find out that there were some sweetheart deals done. Insufficient oversight. Let's face it, Randy, incompetence has been a hallmark of this administration. Over and over and over. They've mastered the form.

MRK There is a new Hurricane coming. Unlike Katrina, those who may find themselves in ratty trailers or under bridges may be middle class as well. You do remember stories of the Great Depression don't you. Well the mess Alan G and the mortgage industry have given us may well send us into an even worse depression. If you think the much touted programs are really about helping the mislead subprime borrowers you just haven't done your homework. They are about bailing out bond insurers, banks, mortgage companies etc to help out friends and save the whole economic house of cards from falling down around us. And to what do we have to thank for this looming financial crisis besides Sir Alan - DEREGULATION. But it won't be just the poor smucks in FEMA trailers who get wiped out. It will be anyone with a 401K, money in the bank (the FDIC will fail when the banks start collapsing enmasse). Put in your bid on a site under a local bridge because with this hurricane it may well be folks like you having to learn new life skills (chicory root makes a substitute for coffee)

Truth is Revere that no one could have taken care of a Katrina. It strained every operation we had going in the US. The death toll would have been totally mitigated if the people had simply heeded the warnings. The media lied repeatedly and fabricated stories for the ratings.

If everyone had left there would have just been a bad flood. If the Waxmans of the world would have investigated where 300 million dollars went from GB1 to WJC to GB2 it might have dug up that the money was just flat stolen. But thats hindsight. Those people are as dumb as a box of rocks down there and its in spite of themselves. Now we get contractors that undoubtedly have produced trailers and used materials that were not approved. If they are still outgassing formaldehyde then someones ass is going to be in a sling. Now this is a Waxman thing rather than baseball investigations. He should go after it.

K-With all due respect I think you will be surprised at how soft this landing is going to be for those who havent got subprimes. Subprime means they shouldnt be in a house to begin with. Balloon payments and then the banks let themselves become too exposed. Too bad. Buy their stocks now K. I have because it was a like scenario in 86 and it led to the largest increase in US history in the stock market. They have poured enough gasoline on that fire and its going to roar. Watch the next few weeks but the subprime will continue to plague the financials for another what 8 months and then they can refinance.

Hell, do you loan money to somone who defaults on their very first payment?

Relax.. There is too much resliency in our economy. The only thing that could truly eff that up is BF and even with H1N1 it gave rise to the roaring 20's. The tumble down occurred and then it roared as the economies of the world lowered interest rates and put us into the G. Depression as you could margin 85% and more if you had cash in the bank. 401's? Dont worry. They'll just print money.

Booming economy by Fall. Promise!

I do not think they are really concerned about their health, that's not who we are today. FEMA already had announced they wanted to start closing down the trailer parks some months ago as I recall. Maybe they want to get as many Democratic voters out of Dodge before the elections, who knows. There are still nearly 40,000 households living in them.

In a few months, it might be cheaper to buy up some foreclosed property for them to live in.

A friend was in New Orleans a couple of months ago and mentioned the lack of progress, people living under the bridges, armed security (Blackwater?) patrolling sites where families were being housed in small trailers. The 9th and 7th wards were still devastated, some sporadic areas of people who had returned to occupy homes not too badly damaged (seems some of these homes were demolished recently which sparked a protest that was crushed).

But the French Quarters was packed and booming, and the business district and Casino were flourishing, so all is well.

Most of those areas devastated by Tsunamis in Thailand, and Sri Lanka have been rebuilt. New Orleans is not even close. Go figure.

We are truly becoming a 3rd world country.

MRK, You do know that a number of people were screaming for years that the levees were not up to a category 5 storm or even a direct hit from a 4. They begged for improvements. Had those been made it would not have flooded. There would have been few deaths and far less homes destroyed.

With all due respect MRK, subprimes have been bundled and sold in all sorts of packages to investors. Now that they are being found to be worthless it will bring down the big with the small. I may sound hardassed but I won't mind at all seeing smug people who think they have made it on their own without any help go down with the ship. Banks are trying to work out loans right now to the very people who insure them. That should tell you something. I suppose as a man of faith it is easier to just believe that all is well, all is well with the economy.

Meanwhile, since the afterlife is longer than this life why not insure where you will go by doing something for one of the least of Jesus' brethren and so doing something for him. Help some person in a Fema trailer get a home without formaldehyde. Like as you have done (or not done) eh? Jesus wasn't very fond of the well off who were smug.

K,you are so right about those smug flippers. My husband was lectured by some of these supposedly savvy investors and urged to get into real estate stocks and bonds. He asked me and I said they will be talking out of the other side of their mouths in a few months.
True to the forecasts by many economists, they are. Many sunk their kid's college funds into these vehicles and are now their kids have to take out loans.
Unless you pulled all your money out before the bubble burst, you are in a world of pain.
Here is an excellent blog on economics.
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/
Another one to read for kicks is this one on Irvine Housing:
http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/

I lived in New Orleans at the time of Katrina and live nearby now--New Orleans is still a mess. The truth is, Katrina was only a cat 3 when it landed on the Gulf Coast and New Orleans didn't even get a direct hit. If the levees had held, and they most certainly should have for a storm of that magnitude, then there wouldn't have been a problem at all. If the Netherlands have successfully kept a quarter of their country safe behind levees, despite being below sea level, why couldn't we?

As far as the people who didn't evacuate go--it is a pain in the rear to evacuate every time a hurricane heads toward the Gulf (which happens fairly frequently, and just about every year there's at least one that hyped up as possibly being "the big one") even if you have a nice car and money for hotels. What if you don't have the means to get out by yourself? What if you have pets you don't want to leave behind? You all saw what happened at the Superdome, did that look like a good option?

ABC, so right, the levees should have held, thus the corp of engineers bears big blame. Some of the locals in fact heard explosions and believe the levees were blown. No way to know the truth or falsehood of that claim, but the Levees should have held.

But of course they levees should never have been built in the first place.

G in Indiana - thanks for the links - I will look them up
Meanwhile here it is from the horse's mouth

Secretary of the Treasury Paulson: "In terms of sub-prime and the resets, the worst isn't over. The worst is just beginning.... There's close to 2 million adjustable rate mortgages where the rate is going to be reset over the next couple of years. These loans are of a vintage where there was the most lax underwriting. So, this is the biggest challenge and this is why this is so important.

MRK are you listening - there are more bad loans out there and since the value of real estate is going down, people will walk away from their homes and mortgages and the bankers will be sitting in loans that are larger than the value of the properties and no one buying. Who is going to be hurting when this all plays out????? Not just the luckless homeowners who were encouraged to get loans they were not going to be able to pay for when the adjustable rates went up. Bankers used to check out income etc before making a mortgage and asking for 20% more or down. Deregulation allowed them to stop those decent practices. So it goes....

K and G-Buyer beware......Look you are big boys and girls and thats the problem here, everyone wants to blame government for their woes. No personal responsibility for not paying attention or being educated enough to understand that the little disclaimer at the bottom of the page REALLY does mean something.

And actually K I went to Biloxi and NO over Labor Day and it is screwed up and FUBAR but a lot of it is the people who have come to live on the government dole as their sole means of income. I guarantee if they had been giving free rides with a stay in San Antonio at the Ritz that weekend they would have left. I also point to the buses that could have in under 24 hours taken the number of people in the Dome to safety. But inept government in both state and local started the ball rolling. Remember, its not a federal disaster until Governor Blanco says so. That dumbshit waited THREE DAYS to sign the disaster declaration and unless you want to be impeached no federal assistance may be given until it is a federally declared disaster. She knew it and Nagin was going to out her on national TV if she didnt when the President flew in. A real piss and moan session was going on with her. Federal troops and personnel may NOT be placed under the control of any state government or official. Thats the law. When you sign it, it means you cant handle the problem any more. If you could, you wouldnt need federal assistance now would you? The law.. how quickly everyone dismisses it except when its their asses hanging in the wind.

All disasters are local. 300 million went to NO to beef up those levees and only 2 million across 3 Presidents could ever be accounted for and its federal grant money. If we give it to them, they have only got to say that it was used on such and such. Guess where the money went? Bet it didnt add one foot to the levees anywhere.

You know there is only about two things I want out of government. Stay out of my life and accountability when they do get into it. I dont flop on the issues as a rule. Had to flop here about the formaldehyde because the levels that Revere posted is NOT carpet related. Something is terribly wrong with those trailers at those levels (35 times). Formaldehyde outgasses and then you open the window and if its something like the "new car smell" its gone within a week or so after it gets hot. The levels that Revere posts means something was used that shouldnt have been and there are a LOAD of forbidden things that sounds to me like they outlawed long ago that were. When I am wrong I say so and its not a debatable issue.

I wasnt wrong about the levees, it will happen again having spoken to the guys who are rebuilding them with a fury. I saw them pulling old cars out , sand (who in fuck builds a levee out of sand?), dump material (garbage cans). I wont even go into the other facts such as the vaunted pump system was never turned on or attempted. They just left their posts as did the police. If the pumps had been on they might have had a chance but they were flooded out within six hours.

ABC-Its a pain in the rear to evacuate? I was in the lower 9th. I saw the numbers of dead found painted on the front of buildings. I stopped and donated 600 bucks to a local priest who was trying to get a roof on a parishoners house and was amazed at how shell shocked everyone was even now. Just a total feeling of helplessness.

Still think that its a pain to evacuate? This isnt the first time the levees broke with a huge loss of life. Its not going to be the last either. It was the various parishes flood control levees that failed and the money that was there to upgrade those levees went where? Someones pocket. And boys and girls that aint Bush's fault. Blanco sidestepped Congress by refusing to answer questions about the money and said, "Senator, I am not here to discuss that. I am here to talk about the needs of the people of Louisiana." Uh-huh. Blanco cronies got most of the local contracting because that too is the law. Many didnt even have a storefront before or after the storm. But they got contracts not having any equipment or people to do the work that was needed.

Here is a nice little report from Berkley.... Revere likes those guys over there (very leftist) and that is an off the cuff back handed slam but it states clearly that the Corps of Engineers levees held without question to the level that they were built FOR. After that it was all over and overtopped. They apparently didnt give way as a result, the water just went over and cut the heads out of them. One or two in the city were from scouring below the level of the levee. But hey Bushes fault! .

http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/~new_orleans/draft.htm

The Dems went out of their way as they did with Andrew to make the disaster a Bush. Guess what? Lawton Chiles who was another Democrat failed to sign the order for three days there too. Is there a pattern emerging? Lets go to trailers and find fault with doing SOMETHING. Maybe by the time we get through with all of the governmental red tape we will have MORE bodies from exposure, rather than formaldehyde.

So I guess Bush is responsible for putting people into trailers with formaldehyde in them, and the levee's failing, and for Global Warming, and for the sun rising. Revere thinks I am an ardent supporter of his. I am really not. Its about getting it right and that starts with the fact that when presented with the information the people decided to game it with a storm that was CAT 5 the day before, slipped to a 3 and then was rapidly reintensifying in the very warm waters just to the east of NO as it finally made full landfall being a danger. A threat. I also guess that he is responsible for the power going out in the entire state of Mississippi and for the water to be into downtown Biloxi by six feet. U

Ah shit no levee, Bush didnt put one in. As for the power there was only one circuit on in the ENTIRE STATE that night... but I bet it cant be that storm... Has to be Bush. Then there is the indication that unemployment was terrible after the storm. Well there was no place to live, no place to eat, no place to get blasted as we always used to do. Its a bombed out looking wreck of a place in many areas. But, everything is supposed to be back to normal. Now... Has to be Bush and all of that housing that was simply floated away. Cant be the peoples fault. Got to have a goat. Makes us feel better.

Fact is much of NO was unemployed before it happened. They had a 5.5 unemployment rate... Bush's fault. But it was higher under Clinton. Must have been Bush's fault that King Willie Clinton couldnt serve another term. And on and on. You Bush Bashers are going to have a hard time dealing with the next Presidents policies if for no other reason that its probably going to offer the world just to get in and deliver nothing. If its a Dem they will tax and spend on pet projects in an already several hundred billion dollar earmarked budget.. A Democrat budget I might add as its a Dem Congress. The President submits a budget and they all savage it whether Dem or Republican.

Here is a news flash....IF the trailers are making you sick....LEAVE. Duh! Dont have anyplace to go? Second news flash....Is it anyones contention that it is the responsibility of government to provide you with a place to live? Answer that question on your own? Who is responsible for ensuring that levees dont break? Not the Federal Governments unless they assume responsibility for it and if it does then what? All of the Federal levees held TO THE DESIGN SPECIFICATION. They were simply overtopped. The stuff inside the city? Parish responsibility. They simply scoured the bottom too deeply . Me, I have a really good idea. Open up the Mississippi into the city and let it fill it with sand which would bring it up to grade... Then build on it. If it floods then its only going to be a foot or so next time out..

New Orleans is currently 20 feet below sea level in places.

Now what do you think is going to happen? Certainly not a rise in IQ down there.

Oh BTW K-The banks simply followed the available law and went with it. Then the gig in France started the marble down the hill. They were pulling money out of our economy as they tried to hide it. Liquidity went to Hell and it will be for a while. French authorities were on the Bank Societe gig and they were trying to mitigate it slowly. They pulled money from all over the world, not just us.

Yes, the sub prime thing will last for another two or three years. One by one they will get picked off by contract rate dates for the up or down of their interest rates. Thats what really did the dummies. They bought houses during a rising interest environment and then couldnt qualify for standard loans. Same with cars. 0% interest for 90 days, six months same as cash. But thats gotta be who's problem? Loan applications dont contain the name G.W.B on it that I am aware of. They were stupid is all and the banks simply didnt look at their exposure.

Same as 86.....

As for the people in the trailers.... Buy the houses that are coming open from the sub prime and move in. Everyone can live in the same mindsets down there. You know the one is that government is responsible for the mess they are all in. It wont come back in most peoples lifetimes. The trailer people need to relocate and forget any real and meaningful help from government....other than to go back on the dole.

Its economics, not government.

World Socialist Web described it pretty well and really spread the blame around as it should have been. It was a perfect storm of nature and ineptitude of government across the board. All they did was a typical government response...Throw money at it. If the levees hadnt failed then it would have been just another storm.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/sep2005/prep-s02.shtml

Could you please just be quiet MRK. You are a complete whacko if I read your posts correctly. Which I am sure I have. There is no collective responsibility just personal responsibility...... I hope you sing the same tune if a major quake hits the Los Angeles area in your lifetime. Somehow an earthquake with its ability to sneak up on you has a bit of a levelling effect when applied to rich and poor- more than something you can get away from if you have notice and opportunity and means. And yes the pun was intended.

You sir, are an idiot. You are obviously a Friedman follower who believes that the rich ought to get richer and the poor should just get the hell out of the way when bad things happen. Maybe you ought to read a bit of Naomi Klein's book, the Shock Doctrine and the Rise of Disaster Capitalism. Yes, Blackwater is there, as another commenter questioned.

The post today by Mike the Mad Biologist about Health Care Myths from Canada has something interesting in it. There are a whack of people uninsured in the States. If you people get hit by a major bug that doesn't respond to whether a person's immune system is rich or poor except the rich could be hospitalized more in theory, your capacity to fight this through public health measures will be severely limited. This parallels what has happened to your country post Katrina. There were documented inefficiencies in the design of the levies, there was a massive push to use land that would have had a buffering effect during a hurricane, by private enterprise of course, and the poor people paid much of the price. I still remember the stupidity of hearing that Mike "heck of a Job Brownie" had no idea where the people had gone to or where to send help. Frack that. Sitting 4000 miles or so north of the disaster, I knew where they were. But instead of organizing tax funded organizations to get into that part of the city, there was a push on to get private enterprise to do what government ought to have. Cuz they had deballed the taxpayer funded organizations.

Somehow WalMart was able to get in in some areas faster than FEMA.

As for this issue- trailers being unsafe- you are an asshole. The government paid for a product that was assumed to be safe. Whether the people are worthy is such a side issue. The government got screwed by the people they were paying big bucks to because capitalists are accountable to no-one- not even the government of the good old U S of A. They saw an opportunity to cut corners and like good capitalists they did. Just like they do when your fancy pants are made in China by children who work in conditions that we wouldn't let adults work in in the developed world- well of course unless we could get away with it to make a buck...

Who gives a crap about people who are getting sick from government issued equipment? Cuz they had the misfortune to be poor.

MRK- do you honestly believe that the American dream of pulling oneself up by the bootstraps and making your mark is actually achievable by even a middle class person these days, what with the high cost of health insurance or student loans? Do you not see that the middle class is slowly being beaten to death by the very system you champion, and that pretty soon you could wake up and find yourself (ulp) poor. See, I think that unless you are independantly wealthy, you are probably not an extremely rich dude, because you are constantly posting at all hours of the day and night, unlike a rich dude who would be using that time to make money. You might talk big, but really if push came to shove and disaster struck you I think you would take that voluble posting ability and turn it right around at the big dudes that were keeping you down.

What MRK you read WSWS - I may have to change my opinion of you.

Let the buyer beware - hmmm. First I do not have a mortgage - house and land owned free and clear. No debts either. When the economy goes belly up I will be hurt some. If enough banks fail the FDIC will be hardpressed to cover everything. I have no real way of knowing whether my FDIC banks are sound or not. I am a bookkeeper and I saw what folks like Enron and World Com did to their books, so I have no faith in any kind of financial statements. But if I lose that money I will be OK. I have some retirement that I cannot move but is in the safest funds that the large and well known plan has. If I lose that I will be OK. I have land, a garden, garden skills, a wood stove, saws and still a pretty good arm for cutting wood. I will be better off than most.

Now about the buyer beware. I don't like the gov't in some of my life. But without the gov't I would have to have a test kit for lead, mercury and god knows what else to make sure my food was relatively safe. I would have to check out my milk for TB myself. I would have to carry a thermometer to any restaurant that I went to to see if they keep their hot foods hot and their cold foods cold. I would have to research a Doctor myself to see if he really did have a degree (and not a lot of dead patients in his wake). I would have to check each bridge before crossing to see if it would hold my car. Obviously there are some things better done by gov't for the benefit of the people than people can do themselves. Requiring banks to get financial records before they loan money and to have homeowners put down a down payment, and to explain complicated loan language protects all the people who have their money sitting in the bank. If you think this is just about some poor smuck who doesn't read his loan agreement, think again. The banker isn't loaning HIS money, he is loaning the depositors money and if the bank loans unwisely the depositors get screwed. GET IT.

Oh K, its pretty funny actually. A lot of people think that all I do is sit around polishing assault rifles, reloading ammo, drinking beer and reading Guns and Ammo (not an Elsevier pub) all the while Fox News is on the tube.

No, no Billy Bob in me until I get my back up. Once its up, it takes a lot of cold water to cool me down. WorldCom/Enron ? Well at least Enron was price fixing using the law. WorldCom sent in financial reports that were false for years under the Clinton Administration. Mind, there were no income tax reports with it. They just sent that in instead. No forms, no nothing. Did I mention that they were get this, based in Clinton MS? I shit you not.

Enron, well hell they just flat cooked the books in the largest Ponzi in history. And they were deliberately driving up the price of energy to the people of CA. Gouging them in fact. Its one of the major factors that burned Gray Davis who was a Dem and not such a bad guy. He just got screwed in the deal. I actually liked about 2/3rd of what he was doing out there. Where he fucked up? By registering those illegals to vote.They went right down and used those cards to get benefits and bankrupted the state. Then Enron took it the rest of the way. The treasury went completely and I mean completely dry. Another Clinton mess... So cant blame this one on Bush.

I fully understand how the banks work K, but with the international banking system that we have we really need to keep it as separate as possible. When the dust settles you will be able to see the market drop in almost direct unison with the deal in France. Did about the same thing when the "Rogue Trader" was doing his gig in Singapore. Both had major impacts on our economy and other countries. As usual and you are right, the states are playing with fire in the markets with their retirement funds. As are the big companies. Enron just absolutely slayed people. I made a crap load of money off of it. At 40 bucks a share x 20,000 (bought at 11) I had to reinvest fast to keep from taking it in the shorts with income taxes... Sheltered tax bonds. So I am set unless BF comes and takes it to zero, but even then I am sitting on other things.

If you think things are worse than they were when we were kids then you would be right. Look up something called EM-DAT. Its run out of the UN and is referred to as the "End of Days" section. There is a graph that shows that when the US and UN went into this save the world mode from the start of Carter and human rights and blah, blah that we might have set something into motion. When natural disasters and good old fashioned kill them all wars happened, we didnt have these things. Not saying that its the cause, but it might be a reason for superstorms, disasters. Human dieback.

"Outgassing of the formaldehyde should have been done long ago, but it wasnt. So thats a defective material that was used and we aint talking about carpet now."

Outgassing of formaldehyde can go on for more than 30 years. In substantial quantities in confined rooms. At least thats what I read long ago. So the crux would be the original material in the trailers, not the trailer age.

HighF-Agreed but not in the levels they are talking about here. It is as I said, someone screwed the pooch in the construction or they dropped a bottle into each trailer. One of the environmental types down at Tulane said simply "open the window" and the gas would soon be gone. These trailers have been down there for years now. The assertion though is that the government is responsible and we gotta get away from that. It just opens us up to a purely socialist society... government being all thing. Cradle to the grave support. People just quit aspiring to be anything other than on the dole.

By the same token the assertionis was that "They had no place else to go" Well not if you dont pick your butt up and leave you dont. I saw a news story on this two or three days ago with Lefty Katie and there were people running around in oxygen masks. Uh-scuse me but when its that bad only a retard would sit and do nothing other than blame government....Bush for their woes.

I want to know how many Airstreams they provided to the victims in 1955 when the levees failed last?

It might have been better to choose to live above sea level.

MRK dieoff will occur - no doubt about it. But heck everyone dies anyway - the way to not die is to not be born. Once born it is a question of when, how and do we leave our genes for another generation. The financial buggabo is only the beginning of our troubles. Climate change, declining fossil fuel, worn out soil, wars about all of the above.

But you really are wrong about the financial stuff - this is far bigger than you think. I know I won't convince you, but I will gloat when I am proved right, if you (or I) still have the resources for being on line. If you listen carefully you will hear the termites eating away at the base of Western Civilization. Like a termite infested floor, all is well until one day it ain't and your bed crashes through the floor (happened to me once in a rental house)

The only unknown right now is the nuke thing with the Iranians. The Russians could provoke an attack by giving Iran the technology and produce a result. That result is destruction by proxy.

Think about it. The Ruskies give the Iranians "fuel" when indeed its pure bomb quality stuff. They in turn create bombs from it. Their first act? Launch a missile that clearly shows they could hit Israel. Then they make 3 or 4 bombs from the fissionables. They in turn fit it to 3-4 missiles. Now you have seen me comment before about the VX and stuff up in the Al Quinaytarah. Some six hundred missiles on mobile launchers..Too many for an air strike to take out. So in unison one day in our near future the Syrians, Iranians and of course the Palestinians launch. The latter being too stupid to think that their "allies" wouldnt take them out in the program. The radar screens light off and air defense intercepts begin. Patriot, Hawks etc. cant sort 600 missiles and effectively shoot them down because those systems are designed for theater high altitude defense. The Israelis determine the ballistic track and find out where they are coming from and either launch themselves, or launch air strikes... Too late.

BMEWS having seen the heat blooms start to pick up the missiles as they leave the atmosphere and the Hawkeyes or E3's confirm the radar tracks. I wouldnt be surprised to see them attack Baghdad at the same time they are hitting the Israelis. Once they are on their way, they cant be recalled or destructed. Its as bad as a nuke strike from the radiation in the atmosphere. Anyways, the Navy by either cruise or air attack themselves launch on the launch sites of the Iranians. They might also at the same time be under nuke attack from the Iranians. They could put one on those Silkworms that the Chinese sold them and all they have to do is close within 10 or so miles of a battle group. I would go for a water hit myself because not only would you get the radiation effects but it would create a 200 foot high tsunami that would be into Saudi Arabia, Oman, Bahrain, Iraq and Kuwait within an hour. But thats just me.

Finally the birds are all in the air, the aircraft are in the air and for about 30 minutes there is nothing but a long pause. Then they all hit. The Ruskies lose the Iranians, We lose the Israelis, the Syrians are smacked good and hard. The Palestinians are all gone. The Saudis within a few days, Bahrain and down the line. We lose a carrier group, maybe two and the balance of power swings. The only "clean" oil is from Russia and Hugo the monkey down south. Suddenly their oil would be worth 2-300 a barrel. The Chinese would be finished as a power within under 6 months... no oil. Japan the same. Indonesia might be invaded to secure the oil. All of which falls into your "crumbling of W.civ" scenario. If I heard that any part of this happened it would tank the economy for about 5 years, just long enough to drill the ANWAR and Florida.

No telling though how or what the reaction would be to a nuke pop whether instigated or not on the Ruskie border would be taken. The Russian response would surely be of astronomical proportions. Israel surely would know who its friends were at that time. If we were going to defend them it would be surely the time.

Interesting though to think about it. The crumbling of W. Civilization is directly tied to energy and if it is cut for any duration, we are going to be in deep shit fast. War? It puts us in the position of Japan during WWII. We forced them into it and we didnt believe that they would go to war over it.

Surprise.

MRK, it is all always about energy, food to feed an army or oil it doesn't matter. Depleting the soil was the cause of several civilizations to crash.

Yes we force the Japs into war over fuel, but it is not the case that some thought it wouldn't result in war. Roosevelt hoped his actions would provoke war and they did. He knew the bombers were coming and hid it. He got us into the war on purpose.

As for Iran, time will tell, but war with them will put us in deep deep shit far faster than anything. The Iranian Oil Bourse is set to open and if it does there goes any remaining power to the dollar. I doubt that the decider will allow that (or rather the people behind the curtain). All those internet cable cuttings were not accidents but perhaps warnings. Interesting games the powers play eh?

Good time to be old.

"HighF-Agreed but not in the levels they are talking about here. It is as I said, someone screwed the pooch in the construction or they dropped a bottle into each trailer. One of the environmental types down at Tulane said simply "open the window" and the gas would soon be gone. These trailers have been down there for years now. "

I have not checked levels and time but it can be expected to vary greatly. Nevertheless, what I read came as a surprise to me as well, because I thought just like you and the "environmental type" you cite, that after decades (in the case I experienced it was more than 25 years old office furniture)any "outgassing" would have happened. And the question off course was raised because people had symptoms that seemed related to the building. And what I read was comming from a respected source actually doing the measurements and based on the values they had found, not some obscure place either.
There have been lots of measuring programs in European countries in the 80?s, but I have not seen good data and not looked too hard for it either. What I do know though, from personal communication with researchers in the area of indoor air quality (about other subjects than formaldehyde) - that we do not have a clear picture of what constitutes a norm / baseline for indoor air. As far as I am aware that is currently under research (the baseline, what is the current indoor air quality in homes regarding the most common culprits for health complaints or risks).

There was no great difference between old and new houses in the old data (that is from the mid 80?s )in Europe. Which is understandable because there are many possible sources for formaldehyde. Wether ventilation can counteract emission in all cases I doubt. Temperature and humidity plays a significant role and a profile over a day when inhabited, I would expect to be rather unfavourable in trailers, with high peaks occuring in temperature and humidity.

So the answer: just open a window does not convince me, sorry. When emission continues, as was suggested in the actual case I have observed personally, all ventilation does not solve the problem for people living or working there.

Where we are in agreement is, that the fault lies in the construction of the trailers. Now was it sub-optimal construction or just what trailers are in my opinion (gut reaction, not scientific), that is lightweight rubbish orderly glued in place. What we can assume is, that the trailers were not old but new.
But all that would also assume that there are optimal trailers or trailers with very little to no formaldehyde emission. Are there? I doubt that. So the basic question I have is, how much do these trailers differ from other trailers? Is there any data about that question? I doubt that too.

No, It was as Revere stated. The levels were too high and the complaint levels even higher. Here is the deal with USGOVT contracting. They will produce a specification for trailers or whatever and then by incorporation by reference say that the trailers had to be in compliance with this and that. The nice lady at Tulane said open the windows as did I when the issue came up a couple of times here.

They did and the left them open. Then they tested one that had been open for a good long while (a month I think I read). It was not lower than 10 times in that one but not higher than 35 times the safe or recommended levels for the gas...This is an open one mind.

So the testing continued and they checked the closed up ones and they all had unsafe levels or borderline. Now carpet will outgas for its life time but the levels will drop off (ammonia is another problem). Not these trailers though. They are still very high. So that means it aint the carpet unless they used some kind of carpet that was substandard in some way.

My bet? Insulation. Now theres a nice little source. Not the batting kind, the blown in two part stuff that requires a chemical as its a binary reactive. Not that can of foamy stuff, this is commercial grade and it does use like three chemicals. Ammonia for one and maybe formaldehyde as a secondary production from the reaction. Dont know.

But these people are going to have to go now and fast. It is as I said when I am wrong I say so and this is one of the reasons that while I disagree with Revere on a lot of things, I certainly respect him/them. They dont back off when they got the bit in their mouths unless you can prove them irrefutably wrong. They got me on this one and opening the window with a fan in it aint gonna get this one fixed.

He can comment on their destruction and how they will screw up the land fills later. But here is a comment worth making Revere. This is the reason those trailers quit moving out of Arkansas. Not any of those other things like sewage treatment, transport, trailer cities. Not a lie, just an omission and that is going to be brought to the attention of a Senator or two. There is a sizeable chunk of taxpayer money sitting out there and they are going to be an environmental hazard in the near future. If its out gassing now then do we really want to dump them into a landfill?

Sometimes the truth is better. They should have said that they gotta go back to the manufacturer and have them reimburse us for crap product. Now thats what they should have done. Everyone would have rolled their eyes and thought the same thing about government as usual. It shouldnt be a Bush Bash and I swear Revere if you have never been down on the bayou country, these were mansions by comparison. There is no place for them to go now but Shreveport or inland to Hattiesburg and commute each day. Their simply isnt any housing for this many people.

Now the big question....Who is going to handle that? Do we go socialist and come up with some big shit load of money (BTW-estimate is nearly 10 bil) for new public housing that will just turn into the slums of the future, or do we let the public sector pick up on it? The clock is ticking.

What a bizarre, depressing comments section. I'm hoping the commenters aren't 'senior public health scientists and practitioners,' as are the Editors. For if that's the case, apparently US senior public health practitioners are largely a group of right-wing Ayn Rand apologists with far too much free time on their hands.

Formaldehyde out-gassing is simply (and unfortunately) a consequence of the materials used to build campers. FEMA didn't put the formaldehyde into the campers before they were shipped, and it's ridiculous to blame that agency. Maybe the Consumer Product Safety Administration could have been involved years ago. I certainly haven't heard any outcries by the millions of senior citizens who have purchased identical campers made with identical materials for traveling about to "See the U.S.A." in their retirement years.
People live in dangerous areas, because they choose--or someone responsible for them chooses--to live there. When they make that choice, they also choose the consequences, good or bad. Anyone who lives in an area prone to any natural disaster--fire, flood, avalanche, armies of house-eating cats, whatever--assumes the risk, including the risk that the natural event will happen. Which is why I don't live at the bottom of a snow-covered mountain, or on top of a volcano, or in New Orleans. And when that natural event happens, they have no right to be surprised. And when they might lose their home to that natural event, they have a responsibility to be prepared for it in some manner, including some form of cheap alternative housing--even a tent. If the event happens, and a rescuer comes alongside because the "person-in-denial" did not prepare, then the person has no right to accept the help which frankly saves his life, then complain about it later. People have the right to refuse help. The people in the campers had the right to leave those campers the day they found out about the formaldehyde, and still have that right.
In the 1880's, my however-many great-grandparents came from Europe with nine children, because they wanted to live in America. Their first home was a three-sided soddy in Michigan, with a fire to keep them warm. They didn't complain about the lack of housing that the government did or didn't owe them. A very wise social worker told me that she came from Europe in the 1950's as a child, lived in a tent in Chicago for a year, and was grateful for just being in the U.S.
I'd have loved a FEMA camper if my house washed away, and I'll accept anybody's camper if they don't want it. I know a lot of homeless people who would be happier in the FEMA trailers than in their cars, and I could certainly enjoy sending them to Sao Paolo or Mexico City, to get some very deserving families out of the cardboard shacks they live in.
Anyone have a better alternative than campers--immediately after the hurricane--for the many thousands of people who were moved out of the Gulf?
End of rant. AnnieRN