Palin comparison, X: Biden and Palin on rape [Updated]

Thanks, Reveres, for making this part of your series. To me, this says a lot about the mean-spiritedness of Palin's governance. If the policy drew the attention of the state legislature, she should have known about it; if she didn't tell the police chief to change it, that says something about her.

To me, such a policy trivializes and stigmatizes the crime of rape; it separates it for all other crimes and literally charges the victim for pursuing the investigation. The more you think about it, the more vicious and misogynistic it seems. (Although I assume they extended this figurative middle finger to male victims of rape as well.)

Think about what it would mean as a raped woman (or child) in Wasilla, to know that, unlike a victim of burglary, you'd have to pay for the cost of collecting evidence. Would you be more or less likely to report the crime? Would you believe for a second that you'd be treated with compassion and decency by the police department? Would you have any reason to expect that you would?

Furthermore, Governor Knowles has confirmed that the 2000 law was written specifically for Wasilla:

"There was one town in Alaska that was charging victims for this, and that was Wasilla," Knowles said

I'm sure you're going to get people arguing that rape victims should have to carry their rapists' child to term (and that emergency contraception is the same as abortion, even though it prevents pregnancy from occurring), but I sure hope no one suggests that this policy is reasonable. It's not. It's vicious.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/sliming_palin.html

http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MjJhYzdlZmMzMzA1NGViNmE2…

If the Russians make a stab for the Ukraine and Obama is President, he'll just say...Present.

Well. Color me amazed. There's a lot to read, in general, so I skip a word here and there. When I've seen this topic before, I had assumed that the *perpetrator* was being charged for the costs of the investigation and, quite naturally, wondered what the fuss was all about.

Indeed. Charging the victim is so very far beyond this old coot's expectation as to be un-imaginable. Wow. What a piece of work. (That's another phrase, similar in intent to 'lipstick on a pig').

[wandering off-topic, perhaps] And if Mexico's government continues to fade into irrelevancy and the U.S. continues to send more resources -- and troops -- in to 'maintain stability' well what then: expect Russia to attack the U.S. of A. to preserve Mexican territorial integrity? Sounds a bit more ridiculous when turned 180 degrees, huh?

Randy, as opposed to what Palin might do? Launch 1,000 ICBMs against the "great bear from the north" to bring on Armageddon and the Rapture? She has said she believes Jesus is going to return "in MY lifetime".

http://www.revelation13.net/index.html

There are worse things than doing nothing. I hope we dont ever find out what they are.

McCain has put out an ad criticizing Obama for proposing legislation to teach kindergarteners how to protect themselves from sexual abuse.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/11/us/politics/11checkpoint.html?_r=1&or…

Who is it that wants to keep kindergarteners more vulnerable to sexual abuse? The people McCain is trying to appeal to.

Let me get this straight: in the USA you have to force police not to charge a rape victim for being raped?

People laugh when I suggest America is closer to a third world nation then a super power.

Women Want Safety, not Biden's Abuse of Power
Senator Joe Biden proudly proclaims that he was beaten with impunity by his sister as a youth. This is the same sister that raised his two sons after his wife and daughter were killed in an auto accident.
Biden has often claimed that the Violence against Women Act is the greatest achievement of his career. Yet he fails to recognize the role women play as  perpetrators of domestic violence. Hundreds of studies show that women commit acts of domestic violence as often as, or more often than men. Many studies also show that lesbian women physically attack their intimate partners at least as often as heterosexual men.
As a result of Biden's Violence against Women Act, the federal government pays states to create laws effectively requiring that men be removed from their homes and families without even an allegation of violence, with no legitimate standards of evidence, when a woman makes a claim that she is afraid.
Elaine Epstein, president of the Massachusetts Bar Association (1999), has said "the facts have become irrelevant... restraining orders are granted to virtually all who apply. Regarding divorce cases, she states "allegations of abuse are now used for tactical advantage". According to Epstein, who is also a former president of the Massachusetts Women's Bar Association, restraining orders are doled out "like candy" and "in virtually all cases, no notice, meaningful hearing, or impartial weighing of evidence is to be had."
State restraining order laws are starting to fall because they're unconstitutional. The federal law behind them, written by Joe Biden, is likely to fall as well, not because it isn't popular, but because it is clearly unconstitutional.
Supporting Documentation
Here are some of the facts regarding Biden's abuse at the hand of his sister. During senate hearings held on December 11, 1990, Biden testified to the abuse.
www.ifeminists.net

Senate Hearing Transcript (see p. 171-172)
This recent CDC study indicates that women between the ages of 18 and 28 initiate reciprocal violence against their intimate partners about as often as men. It also indicates that women initiate non-reciprocal violence against their intimate partners more than twice as often as men.
pn.psychiatryonline.org
Here is a link to a bibliography of over 200 studies indicating that women are as violent as men in their intimate relationships:
www.csulb.edu
According to the US Department of Justice, women also abuse, neglect and kill their children at significantly higher rates than men. Here's some of the data on child homicides.
www.acf.hhs.gov
Research clearly indicates that lesbian battery is at least as common as heterosexual battery.
www.musc.edu/vawprevention

lesbianlife.about.com
Cathy Young reports on the Elaine Epstein quote and the broader issue at Salon.com here:
www.salon.com
and provides in depth analysis here:
www.iwf.org

The election of the President of the USA is about judgement and it is about how secure the candidate is within himself.

In this respect, Obama was not able to shed his insecurity regarding a very strong lady being part of the Presidential ticket.

So he chose to reject a strong woman who had got more than 18 Million Americans supporting her with all their heart.

Instead he chose Biden, a nice fellow, who would be no threat to him, but his supporters numbered in thousands and not millions.

Obama is paying for his lack of judgement now, not to mention his inherent insecurity, as far as Senator Clinton was concerned.

Effect Measure is supposed to be all about research and logic.

Yet I find that in this matter, any truth and logic is totally discarded and all the comments over here are, as though through a red hot haze of fanaticism!

Very strange indeed.

mytechistuff: This blog is and has been for almost four years about public health. As I've said many times here public health has the word public in it. That often means politics. We also do a lot of science here (try the seventeen part series on a single paper explaining mathematical modeling under "mathematical models" in the sidebar).

I am not a total partisan. I've spent plenty of time criticizing some Democrats here (including Obama), although I will certainly vote for him given the unacceptable alternative of John McCain, a person I have no respect for. Palin is not very important except for the fact she is being used as a way to tear the country apart once again. She is a purposely divisive figure meant to get McCain elected via the 50% plus one vote route. I find that despicable. John McCain is also hiding behind Palin's skirts but that's of no particular matter.

Obama beat Clinton fair and square, using the rules of the game as they were constituted. I am glad he did. I detested Clinton because of her politics, not her gender, and I voted for both Gore and Kerry not because they were white men but because the alternative was so odious. 8 years of Bush Cheney are enough without four more years of the same thing (or worse) under McCain - Palin or, given the actuarial tables, Palin herself.

Interesting comment mytechiestuff.

Interesting what your default assumption is when someone doesn't say anything negative about Obama/Biden or anything positive about McCain/Palin.

"Effect Measure is supposed to be all about research and logic.

Yet I find that in this matter, any truth and logic is totally discarded and all the comments over here are, as though through a red hot haze of fanaticism!"

I am able to follow the research and logic quite clearly. Links to published reports by eye witnesses to me constitutes "research". Revere is being pretty careful to check his facts and when he makes an error he does correct it. Does the GOP correct itself when it misstates something about Obama? Not so much. Logical inferences from stated and long held positions seems pretty logical to me. The conclusion that Palin is working in a "red hot haze of fanaticism!" seems pretty inescapable to me too.

When we are discussing candidates who are themselves working in a "red hot haze of fanaticism!" it is kind of difficult to not bring it up. I don't like it that the GOP vice presidential candidate can be seen to have spent much of her life and her political career working in a "red hot haze of fanaticism!". It is kind of incredible that McCain didn't know all this stuff before hand and is ok with it now that he does know.

I think you are confusing "truth" with "truthy". Truthy is what you believe to be true with your gut. Evidence, facts, logic, don't matter so much with "truthy", what matters most is what you want to believe. Truth is a lot harder to come by. You can't use your gut, you need to use your brain.

I appreciate that Sarah Palin's "red hot haze of fanaticism!" may seem a bit extreme even to some in the GOP. Those would be the rich white male fiscal conservatives who are only in the GOP because they want low taxes. They really don't want the extreme social conservatism of the Religious Right. But the GOP needs their own mujahideen, their own "holy warriors" who will put their evangelical "cause" ahead of everything else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen

Lowering tax rates on the uber rich isn't enough of a "cause" to motivate the poor easily manipulated base. But as long as the rich white guys are paying the GOP bills, low taxes will be a priority that can be coupled to the evangelical mujahideen cause and they would be left alone. That is what Regan and Bush 1 thought, that supporting al Qaeda would make them our friends, the Saudis thought that too, as long as they supported al Qaeda, that al Qaeda would support them. The Saudis found that al Qaeda had other plans, the oil companies found out that Sarah Palin had other plans, the fiscal conservatives in the GOP will find the Religious Right has other plans too.

In John McCain the GOP has found someone who will put getting elected president above anything else, even the good of the country. He has picked an unqualified running mate who has energized the GOP evangelical mujahideen like nothing else could. Unfortunately for John McCain these are the same evangelical mujahideen who have been praying for his death. I suspect that if McCain is elected with Palin as his vice president, that the evangelical mujahideen will be praying just a little bit harder, and Sarah Palin does believe in the power of prayer.

By your "logic", that shows just how brave a man McCain actually is, picking someone who actually is a grave threat to him, and who very likely would wish him dead. On the other hand there is another saying, "fools rush in where angels fear to tread".

I am not a total partisan. I've spent plenty of time criticizing some Democrats here (including Obama), although I will certainly vote for him given the unacceptable alternative of John McCain, a person I have no respect for.

I have lots of problems with Obama (none of which have anything to do with racial or religious paranoia, I'm happy to say). But McCain's not an option by any stretch of the imagination.

I'd love for the GOP to give me a single reason to vote for McCain that doesn't boil down to fearmongering, identity politics, or lies. But so far, they haven't even tried. The fact that this is a man they formerly decided was LESS qualified to be president than George W. Bush is the icing on the cake.

My guess is that they'll ultimately be happier if they lose, in any case. They can finally put aside the hard, thankless work of defending their policies, and return to their core mission of obstructionism, collecting money from bigots and polluters, and jeering relatively competent public servants from the sidelines. It should be a profitable, fun, and relaxing four years for them, assuming they lose.

My understanding, which may or may not be right, is that the insurance companies were charged, when possible, not the patient/victims directly (although they may have been billed by the insurance company for some of the cost).

When you look at what is in the rape kit, it's clear in most cases the majority of the expense is in testing the womens health, for pregnancy, HIV or other STD's.

Now, if I am assaulted on the street and am injured, who is going to pay my medical expenses? I think I am.

But I certainly agree, any costs related to forsenic investigation should not be paid by the victim, or the insurance company. Costs related to the treatment of the victim, health testing, overnight stay if any, medication, etc should be paid by the victim or their insurance company. Thats under the current system. I am a proponent of free universal health care for all (single payer) where insurance companies do not exist and people do not pay directly for essential HC.

I do not think this issue is as black and white as it is being made out to be. And BTW, the Palin hysteria is killing your man Obama in the polls.

And Biden is a leader of the phony War on Drugs, lobbied for the Kosovo war (also a bogus war) and signed off on the Iraq war.

For me, I see only Globalists running for President, nobody loyal to America and it's people, just pretenders that we are a 2 party system, both parties are controlled by the same powers that be. l

The only truth to political perfection is ONE MAN on an Island. If two or more are gathered then there is discourse.
Like anything posted on the net, it is amazing how slanted a view can be made by only printing a portion of the facts, and or ones views on the situation. It is very similar to our entire legal system today. Where the words, "UPON BELIEF AN KNOWLEGED I BELIEVE THAT_________." This is one of the scariest phrases in the world. This gives the lawyers a right to say anything about whatever. The point of this is to simply show how with words of slanted beliefs and or partial facts, can ONE get his or her point across.
The bottom line is that the President, whoever that may be, ALWAYS has a boss. The boss is supposed to be us the American People, however I am not sure when and where in History this has been the case. Even George Washinton was beholding to someone I am sure.
Who in the right mind can say they KNOW the answer, or who is the right person for the job? Not me. With this being said one has to look at all the qualifications, and quite frankly the candidate who has the guts to pull the trigger when it is NEEDED. We can all sit here and preach about the rights and wrongs of the world, but the truth is we have a lot of enemy's that want us dead. Not many people say this, however I saying it now. Thank Gold for Bush! With all of his faults he has kept the mainland as safe as can be expected. Ask the question, "How many 911's have we had on American soil?". Today the answer is 0. No words can account for the fact that zero is zero. Thank God for that. Give a redneck a gun and he will protect his home and family. Will we wake up one day and realize that the press, for whatever the reason, did not back the man and his valid attempt to protect you, your family, and the nation from the extremest that would as soon slit your throat, than look at you.
I never stopped being amazzed at how Americans can be persaded by words of stupid people to look the other way at the truths of the world. There is GOOD and their is EVIL. What is the distinction? This is to big of a question to answer, however when I look at my three year old Grandaughters smile, I know that it is GOOD! That one smile needs to be protected. THIS above all else is the ultimate test of a leader. NOT if they may or may not want to charge a fee for forensic evidence, WHICH I find hard to believe, but if true it was obviously corrected. As with any idea or statute, what was the reasoning behind the action? I do not know and neither do you.
Get off of the stupid horse and on to what we REALLY need in a leader. Someone who is going to PROTECT and DEFEND all that you hold holy. Is it Obama?? or John McCain? I know who I am voting for.
Trapper

Who in the right mind can say they KNOW the answer, or who is the right person for the job? Not me. - Trapper

You would find me in full agreement, with the above portion of your post, Trapper.

While your post is not entirely demented, I'm convinced that if it should lurch another step or two to the right, it would arrive, safely, at its destination.

Never found WMD huh? Amazing that no one noticed this on NBC, CBS, CNN.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,377443,00.html

Yeap, lets just worry about those rape kits being paid for. Thats the all encompassing issue for the media now.

Lets forget that Syria was poised to lauch 600 missiles into Israel last September.

Lets forget that three divisions are poised to roar into the east side of NATO.

Lets forget that Chinese subs surfaced in the middle of a carrier battle group last year.

Lets forget about the 15000 air assault troops that are massed on the Georgian border.

Lets forget about the fact that the Russian fleet is in port in the Ukraine and by simply turning their weapons to the West they could take the country.

Rape kits? It certainly isnt the function of the Mayor of a city to make the determination if they are to be paid for or not. Thats a police budget thing. How in hell does that get to Palin forces victims to pay for them? To boot, it was done before she took office.

Yep, most important thing in the world thats going on right now.

Twilights last gleaming......

McCain now has the opportunity to further cement his relationship with his "hot" VP candidate, by publicly proclaiming that "We are all Wasillians!' At least, that's how he apparently perceives it. Then he could email this rousing sentiment to Palin's office.

(Wait...scratch that last; he doesn't know how to send an email message.)

Lets forget that Syria was poised to lauch 600 missiles into Israel last September.

This may astonish you, but some of us are aware of these things and are voting for Obama anyway, because we believe that Republicans tend to be lousy on defense and foreign policy, and really, REALLY bad at choosing allies, their interminable tough-guy posturing not withstanding. I'd prefer someone reasonably intelligent in the White House, who might occasionally listen to experts, rather than yet another belligerent loudmouth with small-dick syndrome.

I wouldn't expect people who think "kill 'em all" is a strategy to understand this, of course. But I also tend not take political advice from them.

It's a dangerous world. But the things that are most likely to kill us or ruin our lives or break our hearts are everyday events like car accidents, cancer, and rape, which is why Palin's stance on rape kits, equal rights, healthcare, and so forth is actually very important. For many Americans, "a day of horror like no other" might well be the result of conservative policies that prevent them from visiting someone they love on his or her deathbed. You can't distract people forever from daily life and ordinary problems with fear of what might happen. During the Cold War, we were all threatened daily with total annihilation...and yet a lot of Americans still wanted better lives, cleaner air and water, more freedom, and equal treatment under the law, even though they knew it could all get blown to smithereens at any moment.

Go figure, huh?

Sorry to have missed all the fun at dishing our illustrious leaders to be. You are relentless revere, and that's just by scrolling through the titles of the last weeks posts.

Has there been a post on Biden and Palin drug (not!) policies that I missed?

La, la, la, la, la, la, la; hello? anybody home?

People, what does it take to keep your eye on the ball? I can understand your concern about these issues, however in the total scope of what is truly happening to this country, this issue rates right up there with peanuts at a circus. We have larger dragons to slay.
If your eye is on the ball then you will understand that this Country is BANKRUPT!! Short and simple we are broke and is getting worse every second that ticks.
This wonderful sense of entitlement that we ALL have is very quickly going to disappear. Ask yourself what happens when a person is broke?? Do they go hungry?? Do they have money to shop at the mall? Can they make their house payment? The list goes on, and the bottom line is that on our present course we are going to see a collapse of our total economic system. This event is going to make the fall of the Roman Empire look like a cakewalk.
Will Obama save us? McCain? Neither! It is going to take an event of major proportions that cannot be distorted by the press, this dribble about Palin, any candidate with a microphone, or the politicians who are destroying this country. An event such as the BIRD FLU! An event of such devastating proportions that is beyond the grip and distortions of all of the above. Unfortunately, if the Flu hits, or more likely when the Bird Flu hits, it may be the equalizer that does PULL us all together. At least those who survive. What is the last event in History that did such a thing. Hitler comes to mind. Oh yes, and there were some people who thought going after the maniac was wrong. Kind of reminds me of the idiots that I am listening to now.
It is time to get our HEADS OUT OF THE SAND. Using our God given talents to look to the future, see the REAL problems, and try to look for solutions before they happen. IS this going to happen? NO! Not until we are forced to react to a situation like a Hitler or an epidemic like the H5N1 virus.
TRAPPER

If your eye is on the ball then you will understand that this Country is BANKRUPT!! Short and simple we are broke and is getting worse every second that ticks.

Damn them tax-and-spend libruls!

Revere,

You should really stick to the medical stuff, as you really do yourself a disservice when you lie and paint with half-truths in these political statements you make.

The town of Wasilla in Alaska would only charge the victim's insurance company for the costs of the medical investigation kit and would not charge the victim themselves. They would try to charge the perpetrator, but it is almost uncollectable in most cases. If the victim had insurance, they would bill the insurance company. They did not bill the victim themselves. So tell the whole story.

Sarah Palin has her beliefs, but like most adults and respectful people this does not mean she would force her belief system on other people. So don't put your fears out there that just because she believes one way about abortion that she is going to force that on the whole nation. Get a life man. We have enough common sense to know that she has a right to belive what she wants and if we disagree with her, then we just won't believe the same way she does. There is a law that gives women reproductive rights you know.

Of course, if your fearful, don't put your fearful belief system on us either.

For you to paint a picture that she is dangerous and will force her beliefs on us is ludicrous. Equally, to put half-truths and false information out about someone is misleading and has no place in politics.

This election has to be decided on the issues and not on the personalities. It needs to be decided on who can be the best person to lead the nation. Tell us why you belive the person you want to be the leader is the best person to lead. Don't tear down other people for their belief systems because of your fear, this makes you look like an A____ole.

bigdude: That is not my understanding. When a person is charged in the ER it is their insurance company that is billed -- if they have insurance. If they don't or it isn't covered then they are charged. They eventually get the bill or notice from a collection agency. But why should the insurance company be billed for a forensic investigation? If my house is robbed, my house insurance isn't billed for the police investigation. The suspicion about why this was done by Palin's administration has to do with the fact that many (maybe all) rape kits include emergency contraception via medications Palin and her ilk consider the same as abortion. As to whether Palin will foist her beliefs on others, you seem pretty sure she won't. I guess that makes you a person of faith: faith in her having the same views as you do. I don't have that faith.

Revere,

I'd say if a small town wants to charge something to an insurance company, that makes good busines sense, period. You can spin it anyway you want. However, they did not charge it back to the victims, just the insurance companies. If a law enforcement agency takes a person to the ER, then they dictate who is charged, but they don't have a victim charged with medical treatment. They will dictate that a perpretrator be charged for his medical treatment in some cases, and that is if they have the ability to pay. If the insurance company can't be charged, then it is automatically charged back to the law enforcement agency. That is the way that works.

Having been a law enforcement officer on the street at one point in my career, I know that cops also like to get other people to pay for things. You don't want to go back to the station having stuck the city for a big medical bill if you can get the bill tagged to an insurance company. Stick the city for a lot of bills and you get a bad reputation and find yourself doing some bad assignments.

As far as faith. I pity the faithless, Godless people, as they have no soul. I am sorry to see you have no soul.

Maybe I have faith, maybe I have a soul, that is not my point in my previous comments. My point is telling the whole truth. Additionally, there is no evidence either way if Palin will impose her belief system on other people, so don't put fear in people that she plans to do it. That is just wrong of you to be that way.

I admit, I don't know what is in peoples minds or their hearts and you should do the same. I don't have any idea if Barack Obama can do anything to make this country better or if John McCain can do anything to make this country better. All I know is they say crap about each other and their followers spew lies and deceipt to convince the weak minded that one side is bad and the other is good.

You have no idea if Sarah Palin will impose her will on the American People. You are just speculating and listening to the party crap that is circulating. Give it a rest and do what you do best when you digest and report on health matters and the real crap that goes on with government agencies.

bigdude: It was Reagan who said "trust but verify".

Sarah Palin said she welcomed and would cooperate with the troopergate investigation. Now there is nothing but a stone wall.

When people refuse to let you verify what they say or do, they lose the default assumption of trust.