Freethinker Sunday Sermonette: December 21, 2012. End of the world.

Forget about climate change. We're not going to make it that far. December 21, 2012 is earth's final day. If you'd like to know the details you can buy the exciting video teaching from Drs. Jack and Rexella Van Impe, December 21st 2012: History's Final Day. Everyone seems agreed on the date. Everyone, in this case, being ancient Romans, ancient Mayans, the Chinese I Ching, and a 16th century English prophetess named Mother Shipton.

This is not parody. The Reverend Jack van Impe and his wife, are among the world's most experienced at predicting the End of the World and selling videos about it:

Found at: CollegeHumor.

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You have to wade into Van Impe's website and click the purchase button (which is why the error page says the session timed out).

It's worth a trip to the Wikipedia to read about this. There's debate qbout whether it's Dec 21 or 23. Then if you click on the New Age Mayan link (if you dare) you can follow the fabrication of this made-up pseudo-Mayan cosmic event.

thanks, Corax. Charkes. I just replaced the shopping link with the front page link, where there is a link to the purchase button, as Corax notes.

But, but, how can you argue with Einstein?

And the Mayans, back in the 5th through the 9th century predicted this thing, and Einstein in 1955 said yes it will happen. It will be catastrophic as far as earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis and all the rest and he agreed with what the Mayans had said.

[That impish Van Impe's site being what it is, to find the above you gotta go to the front page & click the "Question of the Week" button - watch out for the dumb javascript effects!)

By Pierce R. Butler (not verified) on 01 Feb 2009 #permalink

Ah, but there is science in this one Revere. How many calendars end in 2012 as the galactic plane aligns with the rising sun in the east? Hey, You might be one of the first to get to see the show. If there is one.

It is disturbing a bit to see that people who were not Christians, but the nutcases of their times coming up with a calendar that suddenly ended....With nothing behind it.

Isnt that also the time that the Large Hadron is supposed to be fired back up again? Just this week the Bama physicists said that firing that mother up might just end the world as the creation of a microscopic black hole would drop to the center of the earth and consume it within months. Maybe its coincidence.

If you drop the religion out of it and step back and ask the simple question how could they possibly know, then maybe you would get the answer.

How could they possibly know?

I am back and thawing out....Only to come back and find everyone else trying to thaw out.

Geez, leave the place for a month and it just falls apart. I wouldnt have been surprised if you converted to Christianity since the end of December. I come back and found out we were spending 332 million for contraceptives and condoms. Now thats an economic stimulus if I ever heard of one. But Obama is da man!

That also might be the time that Obama is leaving the White House too... Now there is the end of the world (for many) as we know it.

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 01 Feb 2009 #permalink

It's typical and predictable misinterpretation of what was said and / or written down by what were and are compassionate, detached wise human beings. (not those buried in dominating others, just those interested in easing the pain within mankind).

I'll make a prediction: We have 420,000 odd years or so in this universe and then it implodes.
Then again, there's the black hole that's near the Andromeda belt, Milky Way.

Welcome back MRK !!!!!!!

How come all the correct predictions get ignored. Dr.M King Hubbert a geophyicist correctly predicted the peak of oil production on the continental US in 1956 to occur in about 1970. He was correct. Thus when the same theory is used to predict the peak of world oil production one would think that other scientists would be interested. You can't know the exact date for sure until a bit after the fact, but for conventional oil we may have peaked in 2006. At peak you have used 1/2 the oil that there ever will be. If 2006 was peak and the total used to date was 1 trillion barrels of oil, then if we continue to use oil at the current rate it will be gone in 30 years. If we cut our use by 1/2 it will be gone in 60 years. The implications for society are huge. None of the alternatives comes anywhere close to the usefulness and energy density of oil. Even if they did we are short on time to implement them. The Hirsch Report says we need at least 20 years for mitigation ("The Hirsch report, the commonly referred to name for the report Peaking of World Oil Production: Impacts, Mitigation, and Risk Management, was created by request for the US Department of Energy and published in February 2005.")

The EIA has even moved out of denial and projects a peak at 2016. Even if that optimistic date is correct that means that we needed to start the kind of mitigation included in the Hirsch report in 1996.

We are in the end times of industrial civilization as predicted by science that has a proven track record (Hubbert's Curves work for individual wells as well).

This has huge implications for health and medicine so it should be covered extensively on this site - it is the most important subject in fact in the world today. Almost every area on the globe that is involved in conflict that the US has its hands in has oil or a pipeline or plans for a pipeline.

This is not some conspiracy theory - this is science.

Whoa. The Yorkshire mafia here. They'd better not have misrepresented our Mother Shipton (she was probably bent on ergot) or I'll have to come over there and give 'em a right yommerin'.

Peter Mc: What the F___? Speak in understandable terms.

K: This has huge implications for health and medicine so it should be covered extensively on this site

Good Luck ................... Agree with you K, but never the less Good Luck.

K is right about the fact that this is science. It relates to a huge human die-back if there isnt enough energy to support them. I can foresee a day where we would be fighting over the scant oil in the middle east. Food production on this planet is well over 75% subsidized by an oil product. Interrupt that flow by physical or price means and it equates in very short order to dead people. If its interrupted by a country, then war WILL result.

Our problem is that the end of the world will be brought on by man and likely not the fire and brimstone from God himself. Some would interpret it as such and then after that if man did survive the education level would plummet as would the life expectancy. K has a very valid point. There will be religious zealotry of all kinds as it approaches and I doubt that all of the false prophets will take their flocks to the promised land. They will be scampering for their hidey-holes like the rest of us.

I have seen this country taken apart by a total disregard by the Democrats to address a problem that the Republican regulators took to the Senate and House Banking committees two point five years ago. They were called racists, and told by the Democrats that there was no problem with Freddie and Fannie and then the collapse. They knew it was coming when they punched the stimulus clock the first time. It was kept quiet.

WE are going to have a two year run and the Obama/Democrat stimulus package that is only going to stimulate weenies and womens hoo-hoo's isnt going to get people back to work. They stand at a crossroads. They can either cut taxes and get the US moving again as Kennedy, Reagan and Bush II did, OR we can get a false economy. One based upon tax moneys generating tax paid for jobs. Problem with that is that they will need more money in two years to keep them afloat. Then you get into the money mill turning into a more money mill. Taking 3 dollars to administrate, tax and turn 1 dollar. With no one around to buy our junk bonds and paper any longer the system collapses again and then we are down for the count. The US breaks up into a series of disjointed and very diverse micro countries. Mexico moves north to take California/Texas/New Mexico/Nevada.

This is economics pushing the final straw folks and the science of this is that if we try FDR, we are done. We dont have the time now as America ages. They could have bought all of the mortgages in the US (home) for 150 billion dollars. Why are we spending 3 trillion?

I dont know but the end of this is a military that only has nukes and a Russia that is also running short on oil. It ends only in one way.

Where the Hell is Ted Haggard when we need him?

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 01 Feb 2009 #permalink

I personally don't believe the 2012 prediction, and I happen to own a real "End of Days" website, lol.

I'm more inclined to believe it's a conspiracy theory of some sort to keep people in fear, and to keep people strong in their religious faith. I had followed the bible codes and the whole 2012 prediction fairly closely for the last few years, before anyone knew much about it, and everything I've seen tells me that none of it is accurate and that there will be no 2012 doomsday.

The Mayan calendar may end on December 21, 2012, but that's it. This Doomsday scenario somehow spun legs of its own over the last few years - Stemming from that crazy Mayan calendar.

MRK I knew you would understand the energy problem. As usual I disagree about the culprits. The culprit is the meme if you will of growth. Both left and right, Dems and Reps have ascribed to growth. Economic growth requires energy and resources. Since we live on a ball which is by definition limited and finite there is a limit to energy and resources and places to dump waste. The question of the end of growth is not IF but WHEN. If your model of economics is based on growth it is then doomed, therefore our economic system is doomed. If anyone wants to examine our economic system as it relates to energy I would suggest Chris Martenson's crash course
I don't agree with all his conclusions but he does a pretty good job of setting out the problem.

I would also suggest everyone read Joseph Tainter's "The Collapse of Complex Societies" "In Tainter's view, while invasions, crop failures, disease or environmental degradation may be the apparent causes of societal collapse, the ultimate cause is diminishing returns on investments in social complexity"

Because of diminishing returns, a complex society begins to use more and more energy to hold even. At some point they no longer can obtain enough energy for growth or even to maintain the current complexity. At that point they begin to collapse. Peak energy per capita worldwide was reached in the 70's and is probably more important than Peak Oil. Industrial Civilization can decline slowly and orderly or collapse cataclysmically. Given that people would rather discuss minor issues while this elephant sits square in the middle of the room, no doubt an orderly decline will not be our fate. Which will feed the religious end time scenarios no end. But the cause will not be god or the devil, nor Obama or Bush, nor the right or the left, just the facts about complexity and energy.

The issue of energy is of course tied to climate (peak amenable climate) fresh water extraction (peak water), farming (Peak soil, peak phosphorus,peak nitrogen fertilizer), overpopulation (peak population). All tie to Peak oil in one way or another. Nothing else discussed on this site will matter if what I am talking about is accurate and imminent.

Probably a conversation similar to the following:

Mayan #1: "My hands are getting tired from all this calculating, what say we just find a reasonable stopping point to wind up the calendar?"

Mayan #2: "OK. How'bout the next time all that stuff lines up in the sky? Any decent astronomer will be able to see it, and pick right up where we left off."

Mayan #1: "That works for me..."



Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

The claim that indefinite growth of population and/or consumption is possible on the surface of a Euclidian solid, is as extraordinary as claims for perpetual motion machines.

The onus isn't on the no-growthers to prove their point, but on the growthers to prove theirs. Show me how to get an infinity into a Euclidean solid and I'll see to it that you're nominated for a Nobel... or a psychiatric diagnosis.


Peak oil:

Most of this could be solved with a mix of renewables and nuclear fission. And after we've reprocessed all the uranium (or hopefully well before), we can convert to thorium fission. Thorium has the added benefit that it can't be used to make atomic bombs, and if the spent fuel is treated as waste (rather than being recycled) it's only hazardous for thirty years.

If we shut down all the coal-fired power plants at the same time, we'll also go a good way toward solving the climate crisis.

On the other hand, if ignorance and greed continue to rule, chances are we'll go down fighting each other over the last barrels.

Now that we've got a government that believes in science, it's time to start sending email to 'em about this.



We already tried the tax cuts at the upper end, and they didn't do a whole lot of good. And it was the removal of FDR-era regulations on financial institutions that were the direct and proximate cause of the present depression.

Real wages & salaries for 95% of Americans have been stagnant since the 1970s. There's something to fix.

I would be in favor of eliminating altogether the payroll tax for incomes below $100k, and putting in place an across-the-board carbon tax, along with escalating taxes on energy consumption as such. Some of this money could be earmarked for a fund that provides low-interest loans to utilities and independent power producers for building renewables and nuclear.

Legalizing recreational marijuana is worth another $25 billion per year in tax revenues, plus the savings on unnecessary criminal proceedings and incarcerations. The last time we had a depression, we ended a prohibition, so may as well make it two for two. Now that we're all learning to count to trillions, $25B might not seem like much, but every piece counts.

Wait a minute G, I thought you were in the UK. Correct if wrong. I would never legalize anything that would put more impaired drivers on the road. I fought as a drinking man to enhance the penalties for Tennessee for having open containers in the vehicle unless stored in a a lockable box of some kind.

Sorry, running around with parts of your brain cut out by chemicals is not the way to go through life. Might make 25 billion, but you would spend it taking care of the air heads that it creates.

You and K outline what is known in the military as the "commode flush." Its a term that defines a complete and total balls up when something happens. It wont matter what we do, or how we do it. Add another 500 million in four years and 2.5 billion between now and 2030 and we are screwed. Commode flush will occur for whatever reason you want to assert. So we end up driving Pelosi's and Dirty Harry's, the air might (MIGHT) get cleaner. BWTF do we do if it doesnt. I for one dont want to toss any more of the babies out with the bath water. Tax cuts are inevitable now as the economy grinds to a halt. We are spending almost 3 trillion for what? PORK! It will hasten our destruction.

The question posed is whether we should listen to Obama or Rush. I will listen to both and toss out the unnecessary and unwanted and ask for my damned money back.

I would have no problem voting for an openly gay person Lea if I thought that most of what they were doing was or would be right. Probably ahead of the Swaggarts and others. I wouldnt though want him/her to marry under the Constitution, or to have any super rights. Dont start... wont repsond to it. But yep, I would.

But it would take some real horsepower to put him/her into our White House. Obama's support is already heading down the tubes and his 6% margin is now put at a net zero. Supporting 3 trillion in overall spending that will result in even more spending is going to cook our goose. Two years folks and then its time to pay the bills.

All money, banks, housing, jobs will be controlled by the government. Isnt that a definition of socialism/communism? It will tear this country apart.

Thats okay...G336 will have us all stoned so we wont notice. Free pot for everyone who "needs" it. No tax revenue.

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 02 Feb 2009 #permalink

The kookier posts certainly bring out the nutter responses on this blog, don't they?

The elephant is still sitting in the living room. One day you all will see it and say where did that come. Oil is finite. Oil is essential to industrial society. The EIA says we peak in 2016 and that means we have less and less of it each year after that.

The only thing I have posted that is debatable is whether there is something that can replace oil, and begin significantly replacing it in the next 8 years. That means not only lots of windmills, solar panels, etc along with a new fleet of cars but also electric 18 wheelers, road graders, dumptrucks, earth movers, etc. Using any biomass to drive vehicles will destroy our already fragile soils and is the stupidest idea that any humans have ever thought up. Power a mule, yes, power a car NO.

Meanwhile Obama wants to build more roads.

If the peak oil concept is correct then the collapse has already started. None of the clean electric car stuff works for more than 40 miles, a Prius doesnt work in the south or the west in the summer time for the "clean" concept. Turn on that A/C and it gets less mileage than my pickup truck. And you plug in 50,000 inverters to put power into an electric car and you would collapse the power grid in California. Simply not enough power to go around.

So if you buy into peak oil you had better buy into peak humanity levels too.

To answer your question K, mandating higher fuel standards isnt going to do it. Changing to electric is a fools folly. It doesnt work and there aint that much lithium on this planet for viable batteries. We also might be seeing a Gore-ing during this 8 years. Go green and then suddenly find that we bought the farm because we bought the concept. Environmentals are one thing, reality is the other. We could only bring this on in the next 20 years at best. Gore wants us to cut coal... Not if you live in Canada, or the N. US and like to stay warm. The pull down of even one electric plant now for maintenance is sweating it at the APC.

We are outstripping our capabilities faster than we can produce them. Cant build a nuke plant, cant build a coal plant (even if it is better than the old one) , and now the wind farm stuff along with solar are in trouble because of the problems they produce too. It would take an area the size of Colorado to power just New York City...during the daylight hours. It takes 83 acres in Phoneix to power 70,000 homes *population 100,000 and its considered to be low density. Do the math for something like New York City. It would take millions of acres of desert, flat lands or if you like wind think about how much you can pull out of it. Environmental nightmare. Solar farms use 100,000 plus gallons of water a day too, just to keep the cells clean. The cells also are worthless after about 5 years and not worth trying to recover the metals from them. Another, enviro disaster

Then there are the reflectivity studies that are underway. We might send ourselves into an ice age from doing it. Reflecting the heat of the sun back into space, or if GHG's are the culprit we would heat that up like a solar oven and cook ourselves. The oceans are a timed reflector and we live inside a small temperature variance. Get it too hot and no crops, too cold...the same.

BTW K, you know as well as I do that those roads are a gimmick...Besides they'll be smart roads driving on by Pelosimobiles that dont exist yet.

No, I think we are in deep shit and we have to keep drilling and pumping because its the most effective thing we can do right now and then hope for some breakthrough somewhere. Else we get the scenario that you and G paint, and then its a lead in to war. 500 a barrel in 5 years will do it and they'll tax and spend, tax and spend and ensure THEIR lifestyles all the time blaming someone else for the problems. The real problem is too many people. Time to pull the plug on a few by not providing aid and let nature take its course. We have artificially kept the economy and people around the world alive for the last 30 years and it was an error. What do these people contribute to society except within their own societies? AIDS was the fourth or fifth pandemic in the last century. It missed. The next one since it didnt work out will likely be huge and take care of business. Else we get a war and that finishes off a bunch more and takes all societies down.

And maybe we should just cover our own bases for a change and leave the rest of the world to swim on its own? We have a great excuse now and that is that we cant afford it. Not a mis-statement either. A great human die back to some 3 billion people might just give us enough time to keep the rest of us from ending up in the stone age?

Ask yourself how many people in your office could survive with no heat, no electricity and no clean water or a reliable fuel source. How many would plummet the hardest to the bottom from even a destructive ice storm or a grid failure? We measure these things in dollars and in body counts. Let this operation we call the US fall into disarray for even a month and we can start counting the days before the secession begins.

Civil war?

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 02 Feb 2009 #permalink

But not as crazy as ordering a DVD just minutes before the DVD says the electrical grid is supposed to go down.

No, wait. I take that back.

Shall we all pray? I know I do every goddamn day. Hit that very bad knee which really let me know how old I was for the last month running with the kids and staying out in the cold from just after sunset to just after sunrise. Everything is based upon perspectives. Many here dont believe in God. I do.

I wonder what Revere would do if they found an ark on Ararat? For most it would confirm the beginnings of mankind. Would he try to discount it. If you believe or came to believe in the beginnings as told, wouldnt you have to acknowledge the end as well?

I dont hedge my bets. He can come get my mangy ass anytime he wants too and he is welcome to it. I can safely say fthat if they actually do read off every sin thats been committed that they will be at it for a while with me, and then some. If it comes via fire, pestilence, floods, quake or great wind or my preference which is not to go in a messy way so my kids dont have to watch, then so be it. Personally I dont want to live forever but I dont want to go at the hands of something where I dont get at least a punch in on whatever it is. Just my nature I guess.

I'll be there on 12/21/2012 and as I am on the same time zone as the Aztecs I might get to see it before Revere. I will make a call if I am able. If there is a pre-alert I will actually have my video disc recorder going to document it. If not, well the calendars were wrong and we can truly wait for the apocalypse to come...later. I will still believe on that day, and the day after if I am here. Not some Bible thumping belief either, or one that proselytizes either. You get treated all the same by M. Randolph and God... Me I treat you like shit, God makes his own decisions. I expect his dealings with me will be harsh.....

I have been a BAAAAAAaaaaaad Boy!

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 02 Feb 2009 #permalink

I have to agree. This is really one weird thread. Who knew?

Don't worry too much, Revere.

If this compares to the bonus of US$16 Billion paid to Wall Street executives, this is a small potato.

And both of these are legal Pai. Didnt say either was morally right though....

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 02 Feb 2009 #permalink

Hey Randy! It's wonderful that your back. EM has been really boring without your comments. X Big Kiss

Thank you.... I am outnumbered by the liberals, progressives, Democrats, socialists, the disenfranchised, those that are too stupid to be allowed to vote and communists 100,000 to 1... Its quite an even match.

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 02 Feb 2009 #permalink

To me, Rep/ Dem are not much meaning, because I am a foreigner; nevertheless I care for the value and style.

I have an American friend here (Phuket), 81 years old. He told me that he has known Obama's name only four years from one of his grand-children. Obama has got individual donations especially from young people. I hope that he keeps his promise to change Washington DC's political quality, especially to regulate the lobbyists and companies.

To voice the Wall Street's shameful deeds is a good kick, how far this new government can sustain we don't know. But I believe that Americans would like to see the change.

When I listened to his inauguration speech, he quoted the Scripture to persuade his fellow citizens to be away from childish; my heart nearly jumped out. I knew his oath was on Abraham Lincolnâs version, just curious a bit what version that our dear Randy is reading.

Randy: Welcome back. We're all glad you are safe and sound. As for the rest of your last comment (commendably brief), it exhibits the kind of delusional thinking we all know and love you for. Remember that making an argument is not the same as supporting one. Nor is being wrong the same as being an oppressed minority.

Yeah, its us delusional ones that always get the crappy end of the stick Revere. We dont sit back and say "Do as we say, not as we do."

I dont have to make too many supporting arguments, the facts are out there and they are always ignored until the shit hits the fan. Kind of like when Republicans tell a Democrat Congress to rein in a runaway financial institution along with other financial institutions. Nope, we are always called first racists-delusional, and then probably a few invectives thrown in. Hey how about Barney Franks gay lover? Its not that he is gay, its that when the people needed them to step up... They didnt.

Here is some delusional

Yep, dont need to make arguments when the obvious is there.

Paiwan, to be clear. I think that Obama is a product of a totally left wing media. When facts such as his grandmother being basically shoved out the door when she states "I was there the day he was born" -IN KENYA, are ignored by the media then I think the process is skewed. It also means that no one can take them seriously. This might mean that a poser is sitting illegally as the Presidency of the United STates. It means that the media has not vetted him properly. Until ALL legitimate questions are answered completely, the media has not done its job. Read on.

This bias has translated from print to video across the years and now its a left wing orgasm. The progressives/liberals are just beside themselves. They have control of the Congress and the Presidency, and shortly the judicial branch with progressive judges that rule not on the laws, but on the way their bias will lean. This will translate to yet more progressive-liberal bullshit until the people will have had enough. Fact is the economy is going to keep a lot of this tamped down. Thank God.

The Republicans screwed up and did NOT put up a viable candidate. In fact I think that the media also played a huge role in this. They ensured a defeat because McCain though an honorable man was the worst choice they could have made. Huckaby? Mike also is a good guy. Know Huck and have met McCain across the years but candidates for the highest office in the land? No, dont think so. Huck was way too religious in his views and he wore it on his sleeve. We need a real sonuvabitch leader right now and Obama aint it. The media tore a certain Mormon apart for his views too. So, did we get the best candidates? NO. We had McCain and they had Obama. Hmmm... did I need to vote?

The left wing media did themselves this election though. They were already heading down the toilet and this did them in. Those same people who were reading their tripe can no longer afford the papers around the US. They want a bailout and Obama might just give the lefty papers a lifeline so he can maintain his base. Interesting concept...government money to support biased organizations. ACORN ring a bell?

Pai-You made reference to Lincoln in Obama's inauguration, that people were childish. Well, let me tell you that very few people in the US are children any longer, I guess your assertion is that by disagreement they are being so? I have for the last 30 years watched as a once great nation has slid into a government not of the people but of the powerful and rich. Not unlike the rotten boroughs of the UK in the late 1700's. I have seen elitists (Al Gore) force policies onto the working class of the US (Global Warming) that will ensure he becomes a billionaire without the slightest bit of verifiable proof. In fact the media is blowing this too. One of the biggest GW proponents in the UK said that Al Gore and his ilk are setting up a scam this past month to ensure that they get rich. How far did it get? About page three and a short note.

No one is standing up and asking the hard questions and it doesnt start with a computer model. Someone should be standing up right now to ask why a computer program was written to smooth out data that showed a dramatic drop in sea surface temps, to show warming. The last 5 years isnt enough, they had to run back 50 to make it work. So hereto sudden cooling, is being replaced with GW. Media bias. But how do we get there? The post is about the end of the world. They have said by fire... What if they are wrong and we go by ice?

Where is the media ? The first question should be, "Is the data correct", and the second should be whether we are acting FIRST in the interests of the people of the US in doing something about it. In FACT that isnt the case. They are socialists with a bent and the bent is one world government. We become serfs. Taking the most power country in the world under UN control.

To use Lincoln in the same sentence with Obama personally makes me want to puke. He aint Lincoln and Lincoln wasnt a community organizer. He was a enigma. Obama is going to be very obscure in history by my best estimation.

Obama is going to go down in flames. His citizenship is in question. His records are under court seal and not just his birth certificate that he still refuses to release, along with his writings which by all accounts were very communist. He isnt the only one, its Hillary too. Her records are under seal as well.

This is supposed to be a transparent government. Its not and it should have started with all of the records being released. They arent, and never will be. Obama will ensure that NEVER happens. So his legacy is starting with a totally questionable start. Why?

If he had gotten there with a full accolade of the people, 70% or so with all of the questions answered then I would not be disparaging him at all. His advisor's are and were the same people who brought you the Wall Street mess. I still dont understand how so many Democrats that havent paid their taxes can be placed into positions of authority.

But I am delusional. Ask Revere, he will tell you that I am because I ask questions that never get answered.

It will only get worse under Obama and the Democrats and there is no balance. Obama will find himself with a very hostile Congress in two years as the people figure it out. He is their throwaway as I have said before. If he does poorly and I think he will, then you will see the US decline even further. Everything that has happened in the US was based upon the law. Therefore it was good, sound and legal.

But look what happens when a Democrat Congress calls a Republican regulator a racist to his face? Look what happens when a Democrat Congress enacts a law to prevent introduction to US Federal troops into a disaster situation with the penalty being impeachment if you do. Katrina was a trap and the Dems set it well. Bush didnt bite and well those that didnt know the law were jumping up and down that it was his fault. Did the media say ONE word about the law during this time... Nope.


Lincoln? Please-Obama isnt Lincoln and while he speaks very well ...He says nothing. His lack of leadership is going to take him down in under six months. Me, I look for him to start a big war just to Monica the people. Ukraine? Georgia? Pick one.

Hillary is Secretary of State now. Her answer will be to just buy them off. Watch for aid to the UN to go up when we can least afford it. It will be used to support terror groups for "HUMANITARIAN AID" while Americans will struggle to pay their bills.

Wait two years and then judge Paiwan. Until then you should read this from time to time and you will see the striking resemblance to the times then, to now.

Here is the Lincoln that I know Pai....

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. "

This is the basis of states rights and if it continues down the path were are on, the US will break up very shortly. Then what?

By M.Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 03 Feb 2009 #permalink

You're the one who put the post up revere.
No personal responsibility on your part right??
Nothing strange about you putting the post up right??

Lea: LOL. I confess I didn't imagine it would bring this kind of nuttiness out of the woodwork. We've put up a lot of stuff here but I never imagined . . . oh, well. Live and learn.


Your quote about Abraham Lincoln "......This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.â It would not make the US broken up. It will make the US great. To be great always have a price. You need to interpret it paradoxically- the embodiment and the universality. Lincoln was not only a great president for the US, but also for the world. You must be proud of him for the embodiment in the US history.

As I mentioned that I care for the style; I appreciated for the style of Obama's self-confidence, in his speech he didn't have self-pity or effusive emotion about his background. His mentioning about his black father could not be served in a restaurant 60 years ago was positively affirming the country's future- change for good. In fact, I thought about his white mother was staying in a Hawaiian hospital and she was not concerned about the cure of her cancer, but was concerned about the bill could not be paid. Randy, it is not the argument for socialist; it is a kind of compassion national wide and it touches every human heart.

W. Bush publicly said that he likes Obama (No such saying to Clinton), anyway election was over, and inauguration was completed. Randy, please move on. I wish the health care with your inputs will bring the blessing to your country in this term, donât wait.

Thanks for the two websites- The common sense and founding fathers; I will find the time to digest. It seemed that the best British group was fleeing to found your country.

I sense your malicious sentiment and understand a bit about your concern. I agree with you that the high position candidates with bad tax record shall be dropped; it looks like that Tom Daschle has no chance now?

Its not malicious at all Pai. Obama has already salted the ground before his feet and ensures that the US will roll around unnecessarily in an extended recession. His policies are nothing new and certainly not new to Pelosi and Harry Reid. He is like ranking an amateur against two professionals.

I could care less about who Barack Hussein Obama's father was. I do care whether he is violating the law. Do it like my mother used to say, enter a darkened room with no lights on. Put 50 people into the room with you. What color are they? What religion. Cant tell unless the lights are on or until they speak. Obama has said nothing, and will do nothing. In doing so he threatens the entire world with extended recession. When the right pushed back he countered with, "We won." It should have been a short inaugaration speech and I could have shortened it for him and everyone could have taken the racist bullshit out, all of the rancor up to the day of the election, and he could have made everyone equal with only a few short words....


I dont know about you Paiwan but when there is no leadership that hammers even your own party (you ought to hear and see my record on that here in Tennessee) when they are swinging too far left or right, then you are the wrong guy in the wrong place at the wrong time. Barack aint black and he isnt white. You know what color he is...American beyond a doubt, but maybe one that shouldnt legally be even a Senator from Illinois. Sooner or later that seal is going to be broken on his records and then, well I'll either be wrong or right. I do hope I am wrong because it would mean that the Democrats have failed in their responsibility to put up someone who would follow the law.

As for style, oh he has it. But thats not going to get this guy through what might be the first nuclear exchange between one or more contries. North Korea can hit Hawaii now, next month maybe Los Angeles. Same for Iran.

As a veteran, I can tell you that I have developed a sense for events and surroundings. I NEVER to this day sit with my back to a door or near a restroom. I used to get the uneasy feeling and I would say something . Every time I did there was something of some level nearby and going on. I have that feeling now.

Want to bet who is right in under three years rather than 2012? Hillary is also going to show her ass pretty quick and listen for the aid packages for Hamas start rolling out. Oh, they'll say its humanitarian. Me, I would have rolled over every man, woman and child by now in Gaza. Several hundred thousand less things to deal with. Sooner or later they are going to scrap and the big one is going to go off and for a shocked short period, I would say about an hour everyone is going to say, "They did what?"

Israel wont unless attacked but if they do all hell is going to break loose. Paiwan, didnt you read that the Syrians were going to attack Israel with poison gas last year? Where were you, or was the media there not printing it. If they had, =Damascus would have been destroyed with a nuke... Make no mistake of it.

Fear instills fear. The people calling the shots are not anything but nutcases. Like any mad dog you kill them. If you have a group that supports them with food/money that we give them, then its no longer humanitarian... Its stupid. Hillary and Obama will be pumping money out of here as fast as we can print it.

Armageddon maybe not, but one big shit storm is coming. I suggest you start digging just in case.

By M. Randolph Kruger (not verified) on 04 Feb 2009 #permalink

It is called a Depression.

Let's talk something cheerful, Randy.

First, SCHIP for children passed from two Houses. Second, three Cabinet members are Republicans. Third, Obama openly confesses the mistake âultimately itâs important for this administration to send a message that there arenât two sets of rules. You know, one for prominent people and one for ordinary folks who have to pay their taxes.â

You can demand more...As you like to volunteer as a speechwriter for Obama for cut short; I thought that you don't have proven record for short post-Revere will have LOL. But why not? But if next inauguration only 10,000 paid people come to White House, you have to be responsible. Personally I have problem myself âwrite too long-especially in English-an indicator of lack of self âconfidence.

Usually, my remedy for myself is to swap church and newspaper; believe them or not, perhaps good tip for you. Yours are too long mostly. But Victoriaâs is over âconfident; too short.

As your concern about the nukesâ problem of North Korea and Iran, I guess the new treaty in negotiation with Russia for reducing Nuke down to several thousands is a good step; the immediate saving of US$4 Billion to cancel deploying in Poland. If the superpowers can show the ability of reducing from 30,000 nukes down to 10,000 and down to several thousands. This will tame Iran and North Korea- lead by example

Just quote from Maureen Dowd's column; "As ABC reported, Bank of America took its $45 billion in bailout funds and sponsored a five-day carnival outside the Super Bowl stadium, and Morgan Stanley took its $10 billion in bailout money and held a three-day conference at the Breakers in Palm Beach. (Morgan Stanley had also still planned to send top employees to Monte Carlo and the Bahamas, events just canceled.)

The New York Post revealed that Sandy Weill, former chief executive of Citigroup, took a company jet to fly his family for a Christmas holiday to a $12,000-a-night luxury resort in San José del Cabo, Mexico. No matter that the company just got a $50 billion federal bailout and laid off 53,000 worldwide."

No one is perfect, perhaps Obama is too soft-hearted. Frugality shall prevail now.