Americans United for Separation of Church & State OKC: Second Annual Hot-Button Debate

I'd wish you good luck, but I know you won't need it. So instead, have fun and thanks for the science outreach!

Careful, Abbie. You're debating someone who refers to himself as 'the Lord's under-shepherd'. Whatever you do, do not let his rod, his staff try comfort you!

Pretty sure 'under-shepherds' are more interested in the rams, than the ewes.

Dr. Steve Kern of Olivet Baptist Church in Oklahoma City

Any relation to Sally Kern, the notorious legislator? (I don't want to give his site, or hers if she has one, any clicks.)

Oh its totally her husband, Eric. Im assuming she is going to be there.

:-D

Sally Kern will no doubt be there unless there's a legislative meeting that she has to attend. She was at last year's event also.

A number of other Creationist/ID-type people who live in Oklahoma were considered and attempts to contact them were made multiple times by email, postal letter, and telephone but NONE of them replied with a single word. I will tell you frankly, Kern was indeed at the end of our long list-- since he was last year's debater--as we neared the deadline.

Had no one at all responded we were prepared to ask Abbie to present her material in a solo show with extended q/a time from the audience.

AU of OKC has been and will continue to be scrupulously fair in our presentation of the debate just as we were last year. Evidently Dr. Kern felt we were fair as he has accepted a second invitation. Dr. Kern is responsible for his own material and remarks and will be informed of our modified format. Let the DNA chips fall where they may.

Kern is a Henry M. Morris YEC, Great flood, vegetarian T-Rex etc.. I would advise that as an Evilutionist you will probably be accused of racism (which I have never understood), satanism and baby killing.

Would love to be there but that is within 5 days of The Bride's due date and we are sticking close to home.

Stomp Steve flat.

P.S. John Wambugu from Kenya has been coordinating a HIV/AIDS testing, counseling and assistance service through Mt. Olivet for about three years. Kern may be more competent on that topic than you might imagine. It may also be the only science subject on which he can be meaningfully engaged.

Scrupulously fair, you say?

Intelligent Design should be taught in public school science classrooms

Okay then.

Alchemy should be taught in public school science classrooms

Sheep shagging should be taught in Future Farmer's of America classrooms

A PhD in âthe unknowable,â is worth exactly what ?

Its not a PhD in theology/divinity/Wookie cosmetology.

Those look like real degrees in comparison.

No, his 'Dr' is the result of a 'Doctor of Ministry'-- A degree made up by Christians so they can call themselves 'Dr'.

Funny you mention what his doctorate is in. I was just thinking as I read this post how much it pisses me off, as someone who had to do real work and discover real things about the world to get a Ph.D. for frauds like Kern to put "Dr." in front of their name.

ERv@10: â.. his 'Dr' is the result of a 'Doctor of Ministry'-- A degree made up by Christians so they can call themselves 'Dr'.â
You want to watch yourself with those boys. We've got one Over Here that caused no end of actual trouble.
"Dr." Ian Paisley.
Although it sadly appears the old shouter is about to receive his eternal reward for all that pape-hating.
A hole in the ground, and a nice big mug o' shut-the-fuck-up.

How stupid is Rev. Dr. Kern? Here is a list of what he has written for the Oklahoma Gazette where he serves as village idiot. There is no claim so pathetic that he won't use it if he suspects it supports his wacko fundamentalism.

The resolution statement is used to get the discussion started. AU, through Abbie, will be arguing the negative.

Lady, I was present, with my younger son, for your evisceration of Demski. So there's no way I'm going to miss this. Childermass has it right. Spent much of last summer redressing Kern's inanity in the Gazette. Wacko village idiot.
Be sure to read his vanity published book "No Other Gods". Oh wait, no local librairies or book stores, not even Mardel's carys it. Go figure.
No amount of factual evidence or logical argumentation is going to is going to cause Kern to think. A very frustrating feature of destroying fools is that they don't notice.
David

Two things.

Thing the first: My brain read the headline as "hot-tub debate" at first for some reason.

Thing the second. It's spelled "Wookiee." :)

Justicar,

Actually, the Australian National University has a very popular sheep-shagging program.

"I read one time where chlorophyll residue was found in a T. rex tooth, and by the way, their teeth have ridges on the side that would be very helpful in stripping leaves off of tree limbs for food."

OMG, this just blows evolution away. Right? ;-)

The idiot won't even Google for a reference. Of course if he had both the ability and curiosity to do so he might have not mentioned the "chlorophyll residue" in his letter.

Prometheus @ 7 suggests that Kern might want to make an accusation of racism. That would be stupid even by Kern's low standards. After all, his wife is indisputably a racist. She voted for a birther bill. She also made blatantly racist statements in the legislature.

And since the discussion is on separation of Church and State, the Gazette has some coverage of the über-kook Reclaiming America for Christ which the Kerns are part of.

OK, so I know this is a bit off-topic, but...

Following the judgeâs ruling on the claim against Mikovits, the instituteâs lawyer, Tom Bowen, filed a list of documents in preparation for a hearing on damages, which indicates they want to be refunded all costs associated with Mikovitsâ work. One document shows Mikovits was paid $693,485 since starting with the institute in 2007.

Dang, I should go into the whole data-manufacturing business. Apparently it pays well! Anyone else want to join me? It includes lying, coaxing grad students to steal, and movie-like runs from the law!

"A degree made up by Christians so they can call themselves 'Dr'."

From a group that has absolutely no standards, I guess I should have known. Have they no shame? . . . No wait, I can answer that one myself.

Concentrate on the harm this will do to the children, Abbie. Work in how those godless heathens abroad, having advanced medicine, will be selling it at HUGE mark-up to the US healthcare industry and increase their payments for their private health.

Your explanation of what evolution is and does for us every day should be predicated to laying the ground out for that.

Otherwise, the idea that creationism^WID should be taught in schools will be seen the same as whether French should be taught in schools. Maybe of no use, but as long as it's elective, who cares?

(though you should also note that this will require more staff to teach and that this will raise state taxes)

Show them why they don't want it to be taught even to someone else, because they will be paying for it in so many ways.

"Actually, the Australian National University has a very popular sheep-shagging program."

But, according to the faculty rules: Naaah Pooftahs!

Ain't that right, Bruce?

Childermass@#18

'"...their teeth have ridges on the side that would be very helpful in stripping leaves off of tree limbs for food."

OMG, this just blows evolution away. Right? ;-)'

....because 7,868 and 12,814 pounds-force is what I use to get through a house salad.

I remember that article. I think he proposed the big raptor foot claws could have been used as pruning hooks.

I would love to hear the explanation for triceratops and ankylosaurus armor.

"Well those inter-mural Jurassic dodge ball competitions could get rough....Yaweh wouldn't want somebody to lose an eye."

The racist thing is part of the catchall Morse used. Evolutionary theory is satanic in origin therefore all its proponents are satanists and are therefore proponents of everything else we don't like.

David Grow@#15

"Lady, I was present, with my younger son, for your evisceration of Demski. So there's no way I'm going to miss this."

You know that Kern has pronounced Demski a heretic for his anathematic suggestion that the universe might have been created somewhat earlier than just before dawn on Sunday, 23 October 4004 BC.?

Wear your wellies.

As for the notorious Dmin:

It isn't, in my opinion, a degree at all. It, like MDiv, M.U.A.D. M.A.D.D. are distentions in the bowels of loosely university affiliated seminary certification programs.

They assume academic regalia with absurd accompanying non-standards so that aspiring sexy vicars, activist pastors, the package deal spouses of prominent faculty members and the entertainers of well deserved inferiority complexes can lend gravity to a pulpit other than the weight from the clay of their own uselessness.

An example of this is one of ERV's favorite morons....

"Barbara 'atheists are just angry at god because their lives suck' Boyd, D.Min.

Dr. Boyd received her graduate degrees from the consortium of seminaries linked to the University of Chicago Divinity School, with her degrees granted specifically from McCormick Theological Seminary in Chicago, Illinois."

Sounds legit right? She is just who I need to verify this lost Rembrandt, take out my tonsils, or align the cooling fins on the reactor? Right?

shit.

I would love to hear the explanation for triceratops and ankylosaurus armor.

Evolutionary OSHA-like regulations on the job site. Falling pinecones can smart.

Justicar@#24

"Evolutionary OSHA-like regulations on the job site. Falling pinecones can smart."

Dear Mr Justicar,

The Dmin committee here at Lyndon Hermyle LaRouche Theological Seminary and Juice Bar is in receipt of your proposed dissertation "Pinecones and Platyceratops with Extra Jesus".

We are pleased to inform you that your degree will be granted under the authority of our Esteemed Dean, Dr. Colonel Mrs. Euphemia Moonbat Esq. {Deceased} as soon as we are in receipt of certified funds in the amount of $1500.00 and the prerequisite proofs of purchase of 20 units of Kellogg's Froot Loopz.

Congratulations,
P

Right Reverend Major General Professor Maestro Prometheus III Esq. Empress all the Russias [ret.]

Happened upon your blog, very nice. Have fun butt-kicking the kook. Just wanted to say hello and great blog.

Abby: As always, love your blog, get a kick out of your irreverent, take-no-prisoners, mocking style where creationists and their fellow travelers are concerned.

I admire your willingness to "debate" creationists. As you note, there is no scientific debate whatsoevah, but the illusion of debate provides opportunities: for the science advocate, a chance to promote science and science education. But, for the creationist, it is also a chance to attempt to make the case that there is a scientific debate, or to play "gotcha" with false and misleading arguments. That is why the standard 'party line' for many evolution advocates is: DON'T DEBATE THEM.

I don't agree with this. As someone who has also debated creationists, and actually "won" an Oxford-style debate based upon a poll of an audience WITHIN A CHURCH (yes, this really happened), I know a good outcome is possible. I feel I've been pretty successful over the course of the years, and I wish you much success with the likes of "Dr." Kern.

However, I would caution you not to pat yourself on the back for having an opponent who is not a scientist, whose degree probably comes from a college with less intellectual rigor than, say, OU. Creationists don't have to be smarter or better educated than you to prevail. They simply have to make plausible-sounding arguments that appeal to people's lack of knowledge. And, frankly, there are card-carrying D.M.'s who are quite bright, and even a few who are as well-educated as any Ph.D scientist, and rhetorically-skilled. Be on guard.

"Its an educational opportunity for people who really need it. Kern is just bait."

Exactly. If just a few people watching learn more about why and how science works, then you've won big in an audience like that.

I'd even go so far as to play "Dr." Kern's game for a few minutes to let him fall on his own sword. Creation "theory" (Adam, Eve, Flood, Dinosaurs with people, etc.) makes these explicit claims about reality. Great! now do they agree with experiment/observation? Kern, of course, will say they do, and I'm certain he'll point to hoaxes and obscure, outdated, observations from non-peer-reviewed sources (e.g., Piltdown Man, and Mt. Saint Helens lava being dated at a million years old, etc). And right at that moment is where people like this need to be shown as lying and deceiving- PREYING on people's ignorance, perpetuating this widespread contempt for science that so many people have been brainwashed to carry with them.

The theory of evolution, however, began making accurate predictions right off the bat. E.g., Darwin, in "The Decent of Man" (1871), predicted the earliest human fossils would be found in Africa. It took 53 years before they were found, but now we have the Hall of Human Origin's at the Smithsonian. Now what has "creation/ID theory" contributed to human knowledge? What CAN it contribute? Nothing of course.

I just hope you can, somehow, show people that they are being played. Their beliefs may not change about the book of Genesis, but I'm fairly confident these same people don't appreciate being lied to. And that's the only opening in the armor I can see, other than your very informative presentations, of course.

Prometheus, err, sorry - your Sir-grace-a-lordshipness, I just saw your response to my dissertation proposal. I shall forthwith begin the required Fruit Loops. To sweeten the deal, I'd like a secondary Mdiva, the granting of which I shall take up an equivalent amount of high fiber Bran Flakes. I am prepared to render for your inspection notarized and packaged evidences of such.

I haven't laughed quite that hard in a couple of days - thank you. <3

It saddens me, and generates concern for the future, when I see posts and comments such as these that spend more time and energy in simply being hateful than they do in making a point. Are you that insecure about your "theory"? I mean really, "stomp Steve flat"? How mature.
Evolution (the kind that is claimed resulted in you and I) is not a confirmed fact (yes, I expect insults and mocking due to that statement...even so, it's true). Both creationists and evolutionists have the very same "scientific evidence" to work with, they just have very different explanations for that evidence.
Anyway, God bless you all.
Yours in Christ,
Robert