Iraq is really conservative

Sometimes it's best that friends be candid. "..it was the Germany of the Middle East. That it was in a good position to benefit from liberation..." and all the rest of the drivel, including the troops being welcomed as liberators as they were in 1944, is so stupid that probably only the US would believe it.

Razib - I had gotten the impression that you identify yourself as a conservative, and here you are identifying "conservative" with "backwards".

Are you now at last shifting yourself into a forward gear?

In a better world this survey would have been the last nail in the neocon coffin and make them shut up forever and ever.

Wolfowitz: "You hear people mock it by saying that Iraq isn't ready for Jeffersonian democracy, (..) Well, Japan isn't Jeffersonian democracy, either. I think the more we are committed to influencing the outcome, the more chance there could be that it would be something quite significant for Iraq. And I think if it's significant for Iraq, it's going to cast a very large shadow, starting with Syria and Iran, but across the whole Arab world, I think."

Well, I guess Wolfowitz is right that IF Iraq is ready for democracy, than most other Arab-muslim countries would be too. After all, all the other [Arab-muslim] countries have progressed much further.

Incredible (and sad.)

So, it is the Germany of the Middle East. Just, not, you know, post-war Germany.

had gotten the impression that you identify yourself as a conservative, and here you are identifying "conservative" with "backwards".

conservative in the muslim world is backwards. liberal in the muslim world is in the early 20th century :-)

Actually, looking at those numbers they seem to be pretty damn close to other middle east states, except for Turkey and Iran which are noticeably better overall. When you compare them with Jordan, Egypt and Saudia Arabia, it's pretty close, at least in the cases where these countries are represented. So I think it's more fair to say that they aren't any better, rather then that they are worse.

Which still means that the neocons were wrong of course. But to me at this point, saying that conservatives are wrong is about as newsworthy as the sun coming up in the morning.

It's only interesting when it's not true.

Was such a survey ever undertaken in Iraq 30 years ago? Or, for that matter, 60 years ago?

It's quite possible that previous, less "conservative" stances towards Christians, Jews, and women's education were imposed on Iraqi society by an anti-fundamentalist dictatorship. It's also possible that the results of the current survey reflect the pressures of increasingly powerful, and often violent, fundamentalism in Iraq.

julie, some of these data come from the late 1990s.

Hello,

Being an Iraqi, I think this is a very interesting survey. I agree that Iraqi Sunis are far less conservative than Iraqi Shias. However, I think these numbers for some questions are exagerated and/or misinterpetted. For example, the question regarding Jews is not a good one. For most Iraqis living in Iraq, the word Jews means Israel. Having said that, I don't think I need to justify why Iraqis dislike Israel. The difference between Iraq and other surrounding country is its rich history as it used to be the center of civilizations hundreds of years ago and not too long ago (before Iran war), Iraq was far ahead than
any other Arabic country except Egypt at the time. However, 30 years of wars caused the good/smart Iraqis to leave Iraq and the new generation to be far more ignorant and hence, the fruits of your survey.

In addition, I read one crazy comment which calls conservatives in Muslim world to be backward (just in the Muslim world). Firstly, that is offensive and secondly, that is wrong. You are making your results on very narrow segment as you are just looking at the present and concluding since most Muslim countries are 3rd world countries, Islam is their problem. However, most of these countries are following their cultures and religion to them is just part of culture (for 60% at least). So their religion is not causing that (b.c. they don't understand/know their religion). If you go back in History, you will see that these areas have been in their top of civilization when Islam was strong and was well followed/applied while the west was in their dark times. Remember, the earth rotates and so does power. So, don't use your power to insults others who did not insult you when they were in power

delurking for a moment, to reiterate Julie's point, the two years that the WVS was carried out in Iraq were 2004 and 2006. There are no data points for the 1990s for Iraq. Therefore it is possible that the results razib highlights are in fact a result of the post invasion environment dominated as it is by religious factions, and the conscious rejection of liberal values by the populace, since these are associated with the culture of the invaders. While we don't have pre invasion / pre 911 data for Iraq, there may be data for some of the neighbouring countries, and if there is a trend towards increased conservatism (as defined by razib) in these countries then we might plausibly put that down to American foreign policy under Bush and predict that the same effect will be seen in Iraq, except more so since Iraq has been on the sharp end.
That Iraq is now a more conservative country than its neighbours is pretty clear from the WVS. That Iraq was a more conservative country than its neighbours prior to the invasion is something that the WVS can tell us nothing about.
Back to lurking

yes, i was wrong. none in the 1990s.

So, don't use your power to insults others who did not insult you when they were in power

;-) muslims were quite frank in their contempt for the barbaric 'franks.' though they acknowledged the 'romans' (byzantines) as cultural, if not religious, equals.

Also, lets not forget that Iraq changed quite a bit in the early 1990s, as a result of the first Gulf War (which some would argue never really ended).

Interesting that the Saddam dictatorship didn't initiate a permanent cultural progression, especially in the context of Iraq's relatively liberal neighbors.

Razib, I won't argue with you regarding who insulted who. Anywayz, it is wrong and if all others are wrong, doesn't mean you should be wrong too. Furthermore, back then they did not have the power of Media that is present right now which paints to the ordinary westerner a really ugly image about Arabs/Muslims. Then you find ordinary people just try to pin point anything bad from Islam or Muslim countries such as beating women or Taliban, etc. My roommate for example have seen a video on youtube about stoning a woman to death. I have never seen that video not b.c. I don't want to but b.c. I don't look for it. Him, on the other hand, thinks this is b.c. of religion and not b.c. of ignorance in the Muslim world about their religion. Another example, when I put music on (arabic music), he tells me this is like Jihad. See what I have to live with lol

It's no surprise at all. Iraq is one of the last tribal Arab countries, along with Yemen of course. Yemen is most likely more conservative.

But do us a favor Razib and get off the moral high horse. Your vision can get very blurry up there.

Why no US data on "Strongly agree men should have more than one wife"? We do have Utah, no?

They're still grumbling over the taxes of Hammurabi!

I can't help but wonder how Americans in 1776 would have answered those same questions. Yet Americans in 1776, with whatever shortcomings they had, were ready for democracy. So much so, they fought a long war of independence, and finally drafted and adopted a novel constitution. I doubt contemporary Iraqis are more conservative than Americans in 1776. Of course we can't know exactly, but we do know quite a lot of what the ideas and laws etc. were from writings of history.

In the town where I live, there are deed restrictions in certain neighborhoods against Jews and blacks, right here in the USA. Evidently some Americans didn't want Jews or blacks as neighbors as late as the 1950's. Those restrictions can't be enforced of course, but there they are in black and white on the deed.

tiger: "Having said that, I don't think I need to justify why Iraqis dislike Israel."
Well, you do for me. Why did interviewees spontaneously (see survey) mention Jews/(according to you , Israelis, though that is not reported) and not for example Iranians who after all killed 100,000-s of Iraqi's just a few years ago. What exactly did Israel do to Iraq that was so bad?

Hello Adam,

Thanks for your question. As for Iran, Iraq went to invade Iran and it is natural they would fight back. Moreover, Iraq is the second country with Shia population and the fact they are Shias and that their holy places in Iraq and Iran brings them together. One more thing, Iran thousands of years ago and after all, they are both Muslims. As for Israel, it was taken by force and although Iraq was not hurt directly but Iraq is an Arab country after all and also, Jerusalem is a Muslim holy place and it was taken from Muslims. You should realize from what I said above that there is sense of belongings for Iraqis to their country, to their race (Arabs) if that is a race, and for their religion (Islam). And due to their sense of belonging, the least they would do is not support an Israeli state replacing Palestine! You might not like it but you were wondering and I tried to answer you from Iraqis perspective. However, not Iraqis care. A lot of Iraqis donât like to belong to Arabs and donât care about Palestine but I am not sure how much are they. I know that b.c. of their comments on TV and forums so this not 100% accurate answer but it should explain the above survey.

tiger thinks the media misrepresent Islam, Arabs, and the Near East. But I think the media is representing the thought process pretty well. We've got a good picture here from tiger.

Tiger is pointing out that most Muslims are (comparatively) okay with being slaughtered by fellow Muslims. Fellow Muslims are at least equal. But being *defeated*, by *Jews* of all people - that's unforgivable. A Persian might kill an Iraqi's family. But only a Jew can hurt an Iraqi's *pride*.

Also, we're seeing excuses made: that all the bad stuff we see - it's not real Islam, it's a local culture. I've read enough Bukhari to know that there is a lot of "local culture" in sahih hadith too. So this "no true scotsman" fallacy won't fly here.